Patterico's Pontifications

1/19/2010

ObamaCare = Dead

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 9:15 pm



The media says this election was not about health care . . . and yet, this election appears to have had quite an impact on health care. Barney Frank:

I have two reactions to the election in Massachusetts. One, I am disappointed. Two, I feel strongly that the Democratic majority in Congress must respect the process and make no effort to bypass the electoral results. If Martha Coakley had won, I believe we could have worked out a reasonable compromise between the House and Senate health care bills. But since Scott Brown has won and the Republicans now have 41 votes in the Senate, that approach is no longer appropriate. I am hopeful that some Republican Senators will be willing to discuss a revised version of health care reform because I do not think that the country would be well-served by the health care status quo. But our respect for democratic procedures must rule out any effort to pass a health care bill as if the Massachusetts election had not happened. Going forward, I hope there will be a serious effort to change the Senate rule which means that 59 votes are not enough to pass major legislation, but those are the rules by which the health care bill was considered, and it would be wrong to change them in the middle of the process.

It’s an echo of what we saw from Jim Webb, which I reported earlier:

It would only be fair and prudent that we suspend further votes on health care legislation until Senator-elect Brown is seated.

It’s tough to overstate the significance of all this, isn’t it?

UPDATE: New York Times: Democrats Won’t Rush to Pass Senate Bill.

Ping, pong, the rigged game which is dead!

UPDATE x2: Headline rewritten to make Karl happy.

UPDATE x3: Politico: The fallout: Democrats rethinking health care bill.

83 Responses to “ObamaCare = Dead”

  1. I’m surprised to see that Frank made that statement.
    State of the Union address will be interesting

    voiceofreason2 (0062ec)

  2. sounds to me like Barney thinks the current bill doesn’t do enough damage to America and could be a LOT more pleasing to dirty socialists and make us even more like Venezuela so he wants to redo it and next time just go the reconciliation route…

    … but if they take another bite at the apple please don’t tell me the little president man’s top priority is jobs.

    happyfeet (e9e587)

  3. Some Democrats are trying to appear statesmanlike. The question is whether they are doing it to gracefully acknowledge the possibility of defeat … or because they don’t want to lose the blue dogs in the House, plus they hope to convince one of the Republican Senators to cross over. FWIW my money is on Lindsey Graham.

    DRJ (84a0c3)

  4. Hey, did anyone know that tomorrow night is Governor Patrick’s State of the State address? That ought to be must-see television; I wonder if any of the cable networks will carry it live.

    JVW (48cbba)

  5. If you tuck that money into his garter you’ll be surprised at what he won’t do I think.

    happyfeet (e9e587)

  6. Think maybe Barney Frank has some concerns about his own re-election this fall? ..bruce..

    bfwebster (2f56b4)

  7. Brown carried most of the towns in Barney’s (gerrymandered) district.

    Dave (in MA) (6e1206)

  8. I would take issue with Pat’s headline.

    Health care isn’t dead.

    Quite the opposite, in fact.

    ObamaCare is a different matter.

    Karl (cc4af5)

  9. In theory, they could still go through the normal procedure to pass the bill, they just couldn’t stop the debate. Not gonna happen!

    Bawney and many others are scared. They should be.

    Patricia (b05e7f)

  10. Obama should have bought hisself a truck is what he should have done. A truck truck, not one of those Escalades what the hood rats drive.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  11. Ping, pong, the rigged game which is dead!

    ObamaCare is melting! MEEEELTIIIING!! WHAT A STATE, WHAT A STATE!, How could you voters destroy my beautifully wicked plans! I’m MELTING!! Meltingggg, i’ melting …. oooooohh, aaaaaaaewwwwwww oohhhhhhhh……..

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (9eb641)

  12. I would not be surprised if it turns out that the Dems aren’t just a bit relieved that Obamacare will stay a beautiful dream, rather than having to accept responsibility for the horrifying and very real nightmare it would certainly have become if it had passed.

    After all, delusional propaganda is the left’s strong suit, as opposed to actually running things.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  13. Over at MSDNC, Maddow and Kos took this election outcome as a sign that Democrats must now pass HCR even if it means “reconciliation”

    Let’s see … Republican running as 41th vote against HCR in “bluest” state wins .. it’s a sign the “blue” team must pass HCR by all means necessary. Talk about dense. To call these people stupid would be an insult to stupid people.

    Guess maybe I will get my wish to have the Democrats complete their “lemmings” death march as they kamikaze their way into the history books.

    Neo (7830e6)

  14. Neo, it goes back to what we have been talking about the last few days. The far left deep down knows they are screwed — knows that unemployment will stay about 9% the whole year, knows the deficit is not coming down anytime soon, knows everyone is done with the whole global warming scam — and realizes that this is the only chance they have to move in a direction of nationalizing health care. They know they will lose 6, 7, maybe even 10 Senate Seats and 50 in the House, but they also know that once this bill becomes law it can’t be repealed until at least 2013 and by then it will be too late. They are willing to sacrifice the careers of a bunch of hack politicians; the question is whether the hack politicians are willing to go along with it.

    JVW (48cbba)

  15. From Neo:
    > Over at MSDNC, Maddow and Kos took this election outcome as a sign that Democrats must now pass HCR even if it means “reconciliation”

    Indeed:
    Top Senate Democrat Outlines ‘Nuclear Option’ Strategy for Health Care

    > To call these people stupid would be an insult to stupid people.

    I believe the term you’re searching for is:
    These are idiots studying hard to be morons, and failing abysmally.

    Just a suggestion.

    [note: fished from spam filter. –Stashiu]

    O Bloody Hell (79d71d)

  16. Honestly, JVW, you might have a point…but I think you give the “progressive Democrats” in Congress too much credit for thinking ahead.

    When have they thought ahead in the past?

    I could be wrong, but I think that this is just about passing something. That’s it. And then the scavengers came to feed, and in typical form, no one on the Left would call the bill what it was: Chicago nonsense.

    Except many people on the Left did start to call them on it. And that is a good thing.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  17. Have I mentioned lately that WordPress spews chunks.

    Out both ends…?

    [note: fished from spam filter. –Stashiu]

    O Bloody Hell (79d71d)

  18. Would that Frank would be so frank about Frank’s own frankly villainous role in the financial meltdown.

    Beldar (62d236)

  19. A whole lot of his district, http://j.mp/8wROzM, voted for Brown, http://j.mp/4LPMwL

    sierra (4be1ff)

  20. A thought: how do you suppose Specter and Leiberman are going to make out with their respective chaimnanships now that the magic “60” is gone?

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  21. um “chairmanships”

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  22. Going forward, I hope there will be a serious effort to change the Senate rule which means that 59 votes are not enough to pass major legislation, but those are the rules by which the health care bill was considered, and it would be wrong to change them in the middle of the process.

    To turn an old phrase, “Barney, you ignorant slut”.

    Pretty much ANY legislation in the Senate can be passed with 51 votes. You just can’t stop a filibuster.

    Stop acting like your party isn’t the majority, you nit-wit.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  23. Toby Harnden agrees health care reform is dead.

    DRJ (84a0c3)

  24. Harnden continues that this could render Obama “not just a one-term President but a one-year President in terms of his political authority.”

    DRJ (84a0c3)

  25. but a one-year President in terms of his political authority.”

    He had Authority to start with? Not a single person in Congress did what he told them to do. His Administration kept having to pretend like the deadlines they set weren’t deadlines, kept pushing back the date they wanted things passed, and when they would call members of Congress to the White House and try and bully them into voting with the party, many soundly ignored him.

    President Obama commanded no respect, nor any fear, from other Dems. He’s a massive joke, and the funniest part is that most far-left nutroots folks still think he’s actually in control.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  26. Yesterday, a senior Obama Administration aide said a loss in Massachusetts would validate the “underdog arguments that fueled Obama’s insurgent candidacy” and the Administration would continue to boldly fight for Obama’s agenda:

    “The response will not be to do incremental things and try to salvage a few seats in the fall,” a presidential adviser said. “The best political route also happens to be the boldest rhetorical route, which is to go out and fight and let the chips fall where they may. We can say, ‘At least we fought for these things, and the Republicans said no.’

    That sounds like something Obama might try. The problem is most people realize it’s not just the Republicans that said no, it’s the voters.

    DRJ (84a0c3)

  27. “Yesterday, a senior Obama Administration aide said a loss in Massachusetts would validate the “underdog arguments that fueled Obama’s insurgent candidacy””

    DRJ – Pathetic. With majorities in both houses of congress he can’t push his agenda through and he believes people are stupid enough to believe (democrats maybe) that it’s because of those pesky Republicans.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  28. Maybe Obama should go on a domestic apology tour. I mean, shoot, it worked so well for him overseas. Look at how much everybody loves us now.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  29. Barney Frank is looking at the fact that the majority of voters in Frank’s own district voted for Brown.

    Meanwhile, don’t be too sure that the Dems are halted now. It’s really a question of whether the Dems can seduce one or both of the ladies from Maine.

    Steven Den Beste (99cfa1)

  30. Repeat after me: “lame duck Congress.”

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  31. daley,

    Agreed, but I think Obama and his Administration really believe the deck is stacked against them. They’ve been listening to their own PR for too long.

    SDB,

    You’re probably right about the Senators from Maine but I have a feeling it may be someone else. Voinovich is still a possibility.

    DRJ (84a0c3)

  32. Barney Frank is looking at the fact that the majority of voters in Frank’s own district voted for Brown.

    Are you sure about that, Steven? The heart of Frank’s district is Newton where Coakely roared to a 67-32% victory with a margin of 12,000 votes, Brookline where she won by 10,000 votes (74-25), and New Bedford where she won by 4,000 with almost 60%. I can’t seem to find a breakdown of the vote by congressional district; do you know where it is located?

    JVW (48cbba)

  33. Voinovich is still a possibility.

    DRJ, for what it’s worth, Voinovich supposedly said no way — at least to the bill as presently written — earlier today.

    JVW (48cbba)

  34. It will be interesting to read the coordinated spin tomorrow.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  35. The think is the little president man can double down and double down again but his media can’t. They’re maxed out already.

    happyfeet (e9e587)

  36. an anecdotal viewpoint from a buddy on FB (who really ought to know better): “Are they bloody daft? The real thing in Mass. was healthcare, and Obama (with Reid and Pelosi’s help) giving the store to the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.

    As they built the bill, the Republicans want it to pass, because the dog’s breakfast they’ve created will please no one. Add that they are wimps when in… the minority, and allow the republicans to be bullies (when the Dems have the majority) and the results are a disaster.

    Look at the polling: the US is a center left country (this is when you poll on issues, divorced of party), and the Republicans are a kleptocratic bunch of very right wing types and we are headed for failed state status.

    Bowing to the Fox News agitprop wing of the Republican Party will only serve to more fully marginilize them. They need to grow some gonads and make a real difference beteween the parties.”

    all in support of *this* petition…

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  37. *thing* is I mean

    sleepy sleepy

    happyfeet (e9e587)

  38. Let’s go after the Tsars next. The socialistic influences are the primary reason for Brown’s victory. Americans do not want Chavez type government.

    Krusher (ceb4ea)

  39. Oh, and thank you thank you thank you voters of Massachusetts.

    Krusher (ceb4ea)

  40. Massachusetts voters weren’t mad because there is no health care reform bill or Republican obstructionism.
    Massachusetts already has a rough equivalent of ObamaCare with 98% coverage. They were mad because the party in power had lost it’s mind and was on a spending spree that will damage our country for decades to come. Congress was writing checks that the taxpayers couldn’t and now wouldn’t pay. Meanwhile, the economy lays there .. like a greasy meatball. Let’s hope Congress learns that every problem doesn’t demand a solution from Washington, and just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

    Neo (7830e6)

  41. Barney Frank is looking at the fact that the majority of voters in Frank’s own district voted for Brown.

    I don’t know that this is true but it might be enough to get Barney a general election opponent. A lot of people nobody’s heard of are thinking about running this morning.

    Republicans have to think about how to respond if the Democrat health plan collapses. They could propose a bipartisan program which would allow them to avoid “party of no” stuff but still point out that they stopped the bad bill.

    The toughest item, and I am already seeing talk about this today, is the pre-existing condition issue. You cannot pass a “shall issue” law without a mandate and a mandate is electoral poison.

    A good compromise might be McCain’s proposal last year (2008). That was to tax employer plans and use the money to provide a subsidy for people to buy insurance. Some sort of group purchase exchange might be part of it. That would allow a piece of the existing bill to be included. Tort reform would be the price for a bipartisan bill. Too many Republicans are trial lawyers but the plaintiff bar sends all its money to Democrats.

    Instead of gloating today (or in addition to gloating), Republicans need to be thinking about an agenda if the Obama people back off the stupidity.

    Of course, I think Obama is not that smart. I saw a good quote this morning. “In the Clinton administration, the policy people were at the center and the political people were peripheral; in the Obama administration, the political people are central and the policy people are at the margins.”

    The SOTU should be interesting.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  42. I fear compromise was deleted from Obama’s DNA.

    bill-tb (541ea9)

  43. One, I am disappointed.

    Not as disappointed when the good people of MA send you and Lurch out the back door – feet first, Bawney. This gives potential insurgents all kinds of reasons for optimism now – they can argue that it’s well past time to throw the dead wood out. Would that were so regarding the voters of my own state (sigh).

    Hey, where’s out favorite Troll, Mr. Percey Dovetonsils?

    Dmac (539341)

  44. Lanny Davis has seen reality.

    Liberal Democrats might attempt to spin the shocking victory of Republican Scott Brown in Massachusetts by claiming that the loss was a result of a poor campaign by Martha Coakley. Would that it were so. This was a defeat not of the messenger, but of the message—and the sooner progressive Democrats face up to that fact, the better.

    It’s the substance, stupid!

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (9eb641)

  45. Dmac, imdw has inflamed hemorrhoids, apparently (see above in the thread). I guess he can’t even keep up the pretense.

    Myron and DCSCA have held forth as well.

    No worries. Things will be back to normal soon.

    Did you catch Mathews telling folks that the Brown election wasn’t about POTUS, or the health care bill, or even anti-Democrat sentiment. No, Tingles thought it was an anti-incumbent reaction.

    Except Croakley was not, well, an incumbent.

    Get the clue stick.

    Eric Blair (20b3a8)

  46. Based on what people said at the polls yesterday in MA, it’s starting to feel like maybe the elitist and clueless Senator John Francoise Kerry may not be the people of Massachusetts’ type of guy anymore either.

    Since he’s Mr. Energy scam and Mr. Cap and Trade tax, the natives in Washington and around the world can be plenty restless about that, too. :)

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geoffreylean/100023041/massachusetts-election-rocks-prospects-for-world-climate-treaty/

    elissa (3bc841)

  47. The Republicans should not celebrate too much about this. Losing has a way of snapping people from sleep. I dont think the Dems will fold their hands and just watch things get so bad. They will fight back. Be ready for the counter attack. This is just the start. Congratulations to Brown and his party. It was a well fought and won victory. But as a party, the Reps should not get drunk on this. Crush your enemy when he is on the ground or you will turn back and see him standing again, stronger than ever.

    The Emperor (f80a22)

  48. And the cycle begins anew…

    See, Dmac?

    Eric Blair (20b3a8)

  49. Emp, You dumbocrats are going to double down on stupid, reaping a butt whooping for all ages.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  50. @PCD. Yeah just like your butts were mercilessly trashed last two years? Dont glory too much in this little victory. It’s not gonna change much.

    The Emperor (f80a22)

  51. To think, Ted contributed more to the well being of this country in passing than in life.

    HeavenSent (ae267e)

  52. The Emperor, so far Obama has campaigned for three candidates in states where he won overwhelmingly, and all three lost.

    Think about it, if you can.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  53. And the cycle begins anew…

    See, Dmac?

    Indeed, you called that dog whistle quite accurately, as usual. Funniest thing is seeing the previously – shamed – into – hiding nutbag suddenly emerge from it’s underground cavern, replete with fuming expectorate and phlegm. Awesome, that.

    Dmac (539341)

  54. Think about it, if you can.

    You’re asking for the impossible here, for the nutbag cannot speak nor think without pulling it’s tiny, Gollum – shaped cranium out of it’s ginormous backside.

    Dmac (539341)

  55. “…It’s not gonna change much….”

    Hmmm. Sounds like someone is a mite touchy this morning. Massachusettes (!) voting for a Republican to fill “Ted Kennedy’s seat”?

    Naw. Not a big deal at all.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  56. This victory can be celebrated – but there is still much, much more work to do. Those Republicans that claim Conservatism need to prove it. This was an Anti-Obamacare vote; no doubt. And the surge behind it is building. But the Progressives will not take this lying down – there will be a fight.

    Keep your eye on the ball.

    Corwin (ea9428)

  57. JVW,

    “Are you sure about that, Steven? The heart of Frank’s district is Newton where Coakely roared to a 67-32% victory with a margin of 12,000 votes, Brookline where she won by 10,000 votes (74-25), and New Bedford where she won by 4,000 with almost 60%. I can’t seem to find a breakdown of the vote by congressional district; do you know where it is located?”

    This isn’t by district, but it’s a good start. Yes, the Boston area went for Coakley, but the rest of Frank’s district went heavily for Brown.

    And the shifts are perhaps even more significant, even in the places you cite:

    Newton: -8% Democrat
    Brookline: -6.6% Democrat

    New Bedford I can’t find on that map; but the rest of his district shifted a lot more, some places more than 15%.

    For the national Democrats, Scott Brown’s election was a warning shot; for Barney Frank, it grazed his scalp. His territory is now Brown’s territory.

    Martin L. Shoemaker (e28f11)

  58. Comment by Mike K — 1/20/2010 @ 6:10 am

    Mike K, in your learned opinion can we mandate coverage for preexisting conditions without also mandating that everyone purchase some form of insurance? Allowing already sick people into the health insurance system is going to drive up costs, so don’t we then have to balance it with added revenue by forcing healthy young people to buy insurance to offset it? Otherwise, you are back to the problem of everyone waiting until they are sick to purchase insurance. That is the biggest stumbling block that I can see in all of this.

    JVW (48cbba)

  59. Corwin @58 makes the same point as mine @49. Winning is good. It can also work against you. This will make the Dems to rethink their strategy going forward. They will have to ask themselves, is this Health Care reform what dying for? I mean if they were able to lose an election in MA of all places, what will happen in the other elections. I see them doing either of these two: change how they are selling this bill by listening to what Americans are really saying or kill the bill outright. When it comes to winning, politicians will do anything.

    The Emperor (f80a22)

  60. Correction: “worth dying for” and not “what dying for..”

    The Emperor (f80a22)

  61. I don’t know about you, but this election seems to mean people don’t want entire industries nationalized.

    Barack has not heard the message.

    Student Loans Nationalized.

    Patricia (b05e7f)

  62. […] “ping pong plus.” On the other hand, we should not discount the possibility that Rep. Barney Frank (who is both smarter than Pelosi and not required to put on a defiant face) has correctly assessed […]

    The Greenroom » Forum Archive » ObamaCare: The “What Next?” post (e2f069)

  63. @53 classy. Thanks for your contribution.

    Just guessing, but I’ll bet most of those celebrating the purported demise of health insurance reform already have health insurance. I’d be surprised if my friends down at the homeless shelter feel the same, but hey, who can bothered to worry about the forty million when there’s egg on Obama’s face? Screw ’em.


    As a disillusioned Dem (at this point, I don’t care who gets it done: people need coverage), I figure the not-so-supermajority may as well have eroded now; we had it coming. What good is a majority of seats absent effective leadership? In the meantime, well done, Sen. Brown. It was indeed a hell of a campaign, but now the real fun begins. Let’s see if you’ve got anything to offer the people apart from ‘no’ votes.

    Tom R (9eb791)

  64. @53 classy. Thanks for your contribution.

    Just guessing, but I’ll bet most of those celebrating the purported demise of health insurance reform already have health insurance. I’d be surprised if my friends down at the homeless shelter feel the same, but hey, who can bothered to worry about the forty million when there’s egg on Obama’s face? Screw ’em.


    As a disillusioned Dem (at this point, I don’t care who gets it done: people need coverage), I figure the not-so-supermajority may as well have eroded now; we had it coming. What good is a majority of seats absent effective leadership? In the meantime, well done, Sen. Brown. It was indeed a hell of a campaign, but now the real fun begins. Let’s see if you’ve got anything to offer the people apart from ‘no’ votes.

    Tom R (9eb791)

  65. […] especially “ping pong plus.” On the other hand, we should not discount the possibility that Rep. Barney Frank (who is both smarter than Pelosi and not required to put on a defiant face) has correctly assessed […]

    Patterico's Pontifications » ObamaCare: The “What Next?” post (e4ab32)

  66. Tom R., go ahead and pretend that there are no health care alternatives for people in the homeless shelter. It is of a kind of the lying Democrats have been doing for this legislation for the last year. And a part of why it is so unpopular.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  67. Crush your enemy when he is on the ground or you will turn back and see him standing again, stronger than ever.

    Comment by The Emperor — 1/20/2010 @ 7:34 am

    It’s OK to crush ’em, just don’t waterboard ’em, or bloody their noses, or forget to read ’em their rights…

    Matador (176445)

  68. #53 was hilarious.

    Ted was a bad man… a weak man. A stain. But he removed the governor’s power to appoint his successor in a fit of rage at the voters, and then passed away. I hope he found salvation, but that was a very ugly move that helped put that senate seat where it belongs: in the people’s hands.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  69. …I’d be surprised if my friends down at the homeless shelter feel the same, but hey, who can bothered to worry about the forty million when there’s egg on Obama’s face? Screw ‘em….

    Comment by Tom R — 1/20/2010 @ 10:14 am

    Friends down at the homeless shelter? If you are also so situated, I’ll be glad to put in the first contribution to give you a hand up.

    If you’re not, then how, HOW, could you leave your “friends” to suffer the indignity of a shelter?

    You’re a Dem (disillusioned or not) damnit! You have cornered the market on compassion. You’ll spare no sacrifice, no amount of your personal assets to lift your “friends” from the depths of despair.

    Nah, you’ll just bloviate and then vote for someone who promises to make everyone else do it.

    Matador (176445)

  70. I’ve volunteered at a shelter (or rescue mission), you have to maintain some distance with the peeps who need help, even if you genuinely call them friends.

    It’s not true that people opposed to rampant deficit policies, including but not limited to Obamacare, have a health insurance provider. Young men, in particular, may not feel they need that coverage. That’s not to say they shouldn’t get it, but a lot of them don’t find it to be a value (and indeed, most will come out ahead financially by playing the odds).

    Anyway, it’s a personal choice. Even if it’s a foolish choice, it’s none of the government’s business. Whether it passes or not, the same group of people will get free car at emergency rooms and clog the system. Forcing everyone to buy insurance isn’t going to change things for the people at rock bottom. Just go to Boston and look for yourself.

    Like it or not, there will always be problems and suffering and misery and, of course, really bad choices. Mental illness brought on by drugs or bad luck isn’t going to go away if we do whatever the democrats tell us. They are lying to us when they say opposing Obamacare = hurting hobos in shelters.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  71. btw, best thing for a lot of people who are having a hard time making ends meet is getting a job, and they aren’t going to get one from GM’s union thugs or GE. They are going to get that job from a small business that won’t hire in this climate where you have no idea what Obama will change next.

    So Obamacare is starving the needy, even before it exists.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  72. Tom R., the current health care bill was based on the Canadian and British models, which are known failures. We know how and why they fail. It is a dumb road to try and go down.

    I suggest you look at the French and Australian models of healthcare. It is single-payer with the government covering between 33% and 50% of costs, depending; and insurance that you buy from private insurance companies then becomes ‘gap insurance’ to make up the difference between the government’s payment and your actual costs.

    Hospitals and doctors receive certain tax and legal benefits from seeing a certain amount of the truly indigent, though the payments they receive do not cover their costs. If you do not have the money to pay, you will receive medical attention though you will not necessarily get to choose your doctor or the time and location of non-critical care. But you will receive excellent standard care.

    Those with insurance find a greater choice of doctors, locations, and times and places of their choosing.

    If you actually wish a government-based plan for some reason, I suggest you educate yourself on these.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  73. Don’t bother Tommy with facts, he’s too busy climbing onto that high horse of moral outrage. Just another ignorant Trollbot.

    Dmac (539341)

  74. > I fear compromise was deleted from Obama’s DNA.

    For the vast majority of current libtards, wisdom was deleted from their DNA…

    They cannot learn from experience. They are categorically incapable of it — that’s why they are so endlessly enamored of socialism and state-control. Wherever it’s been implemented, ruination has followed, but hey “It just hasn’t been done right”.

    Which is completely true, if you grasp that the “only way to do it right” -is- “to not do it at all”.

    O Bloody Hell (79d71d)

  75. There is a whole spectrum, from savvy politican to ideologue. Any savvy politician has to be able to learn, but as ideology swamps their thought processes, learning is hindered. Too many confuse education with learning, wisdom, and independent thought.

    It is interesting to observe how many on the left are STILL crediting the GOP with being able to motivate this response, which means, if they really believe it, that they are trying to combat the wrong enemy.

    Of course, the GOP does not seem to be able to figure it out either. I wonder which will figure it out first?

    jodetoad (059c35)

  76. I’d be surprised if my friends down at the homeless shelter feel the same

    I cannot understand why liberals feel that such arguments help them. In my view, the opposite is the case.

    While health care is important, there are more basic things to human survival: food, clothing and shelter come to mind. There are millions who for one reason or another (unemployment, poverty, mental illness, lack of education) cannot afford those things. Yet no one proposes that we nationlize those industries. Everyone understands that socializing, say, the food industry would lead to utter disaster.

    Instead, we rely on a combination of government programs (welfare, food stamps, WIC, Section 8, housing subsidies) and private charities to help the poorest while leaving most of the respective industries to the free market system.

    Why is healthcare different? There already is Medicaid and various free clinics (govt. subsidized and supported by private charities). Maybe we need to beef this up a bit — offer “health insurance” stamps like we do food stamps to the poorest 10%. But why can’t that be done without socializing the entire healthcare system?

    True, the healthcare the poor receive is less in quality than the rich and middle class — but that is no different than food or clothing.

    Bored Lawyer (c8f13b)

  77. Bored Lawyer, that’s a damn good point.

    If you spend $10,000 per homeless person on vaccines and preventive tests, leaving him hungry, dirty, and homeless, you just made a really insensitive choice. But the dems don’t see this because they ultimately want the state to take care of everything.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  78. From the cradle to the crave, Dustin – from the cradle to the grave.

    Dmac (539341)

  79. A sign seen on US-95 in Central Nevada:

    Will Rogers never met Harry Reid!

    AD - RtR/OS! (6c3ec3)

  80. You’ll spare no sacrifice, no amount of your personal assets to lift your “friends” from the depths of despair.

    See, where you fail is saying that a democrat would use PERSONAL assets…

    We all know they only hand out assets gathered from others.

    I’d be surprised if my friends down at the homeless shelter feel the same

    Personally, I really don’t give two Good God Damns what the homeless think. I would much rather hear the opinion of someone with a stake in how tax money is spent, and you only get that by having it be some of YOUR money.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  81. Notice that Tom R dumped his load and ran off.

    SPQR (26be8b)


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