Patterico's Pontifications

1/18/2010

Revealed: U.S. Military Uses “Jesus Rifles”

Filed under: Religion,War — DRJ @ 2:48 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

ABC News reports a Michigan company that supplies high-powered rifle sights to the U.S. military inscribes references to New Testament Bible passages on the sights, including references to Second Corinthians, Revelation, Matthew and John:

“Trijicon confirmed to ABCNews.com that it adds the biblical codes to the sights sold to the U.S. military. Tom Munson, director of sales and marketing for Trijicon, which is based in Wixom, Michigan, said the inscriptions “have always been there” and said there was nothing wrong or illegal with adding them. Munson said the issue was being raised by a group that is “not Christian.” The company has said the practice began under its founder, Glyn Bindon, a devout Christian from South Africa who was killed in a 2003 plane crash.”

Using weapons with Biblical references raises military concerns that its actions will be viewed as a religious “Crusade” in the war against al Qaeda and the Taliban.

— DRJ

165 Responses to “Revealed: U.S. Military Uses “Jesus Rifles””

  1. Not to mention it’s a little sick.

    [note: released from accidental moderation, not really anyone’s fault. –Stashiu]

    Elhaym (73bbf1)

  2. Yet another example of the bizarre lack of common sense so pervasive to the “politically correct” nonsense.

    Who cares that Trijicon coded a biblical reference onto the housing of their sights?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  3. Anything But Content……. spewing terrorist aiding propaganda to the four winds.

    i doubt you’ll find a source for the “Jesus rifles” crap.

    i always get a kick out of the atheists hiding the advancement of their religious belief behind the maskirovka of “religious freedom”…. they are as bad as the rest of the “true believers”.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  4. Oh wow…better remove that or they might crash airplanes into buildings or blow others up!

    MunDane68 (54a83b)

  5. One of the major contributing factors to the 1857 mutiny of the Indian troops against the British Empire was the rumor (and widespread belief) that the bullets handed out to the sepoys had been smeared in cow and pig fat.

    We really ought to be more careful about this sort of thing – because it does an enormous amount of harm to our reputation with people who are neither committed to us nor committed against us.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  6. You guys are unbelievable. So, the only people who might have objections to Biblical verses being on rifles used to shoot people are atheists or PCtards? Christians themselves might not take offense?

    [note: released from accidental moderation, not really anyone’s fault. –Stashiu]

    Elhaym (73bbf1)

  7. “It allows the Mujahedeen, the Taliban, al Qaeda and the insurrectionists and jihadists to claim they’re being shot by Jesus rifles,” he said.

    So what? Do the verses inspire them to kill Americans even more than they already do (as if that is possible…)? If the verses are removed, would our enemy then denounce all jihads and terrorist attacks?

    I think a big part of the quagmire we find ourselves in is that we’ve become more concerned about what our enemy thinks of us than what we think of ourselves. When did we ever give them so much control and influence? And to what end? P.C. will be the death of us all.

    Dana (f64b7d)

  8. Dumb as Marcia Martha Coakley.

    Bradley J. Fikes, C. O.R. (a18ddc)

  9. We really ought to be more careful about this sort of thing

    Yes, I’m in favor of pig skin grips and maybe a pork fat lubricated bayonet. The Sepoy mutiny was in troops that were British native units, not the enemy. In the Afghan wars, the Brits buried dead Afghans under pig carcasses to warn them to stay away.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  10. I think that’s kind of beautiful and also a neat idea. It was probably more beautiful before ABC pissed all over it though.

    happyfeet (e9e587)

  11. Dana,
    The practical reason Trijicon is wrong is that its action puts moderate Muslims that we’re working with in a very awkward position. If for no other reason, it’s an utterly irresponsible thing to do.

    Bradley J. Fikes, C. O.R. (a18ddc)

  12. We really ought to be more careful about this sort of thing

    aphrael, what if the vast majority of soldiers using these guns found strength and reassurance from seeing a verse in the midst of the horrible jobs they have to do while using that gun? Would that make a difference to you?

    Dana (f64b7d)

  13. Who Would Jesus Shoot? This almost seems like something from The Onion, but is strangely being defended here for some reason.

    [note: released from accidental moderation, not really anyone’s fault. –Stashiu]

    Elhaym (73bbf1)

  14. “I think a big part of the quagmire we find ourselves in is that we’ve become more concerned about what our enemy thinks of us than what we think of ourselves.”

    The way to move out of the quagmire is to be concerned more about what the people who aren’t our enemies think.

    imdw (795ee1)

  15. Dana: no.

    I understand the argument – it’s good for the morale of the soldiers, so it must be good.

    But the flip side is: the wars we’re fighting is a war that, at the end of the day, is only winnable if we convince the people of Iraq and Afghanistan to join with us and prevent the takeover of their countries by people who would use an extremist form of their religion to oppress them, and then use those countries as springboards to attack us and our allies. At the very least, we need the people of Afghanistan and Iraq to be neutral; ideally, we need them to side with us against the extremists in their midst.

    Running around their countries in a fashion which can easily be mischaracterized as fighting a religious war against Islam makes it much, much harder to win the hearts and minds of the people who we must win over in order to succeed.

    If it improves the morale of our soldiers, it also decreases the morale of the people we are there to help … and increases the tendency of those people to see us as foreign invaders out to destroy their way of life. It nudges them in the direction of becoming our enemies.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  16. Oh Noes! Another recruiting tool for the jihadists!

    On the other hand, we are a Christian nation, so wtf.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  17. “On the other hand, we are a Christian nation, so wtf.”

    Aint no moo-slims on our side.

    imdw (017d51)

  18. “…Michael “Mikey” Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group that seeks to preserve the separation of church and state in the military.

    And yet, according to the article, it’s an American advocacy group that is complaining, not the moderate Muslims.

    Dana (f64b7d)

  19. I heard a Christian might have touched a firing pin, and another Christian works at the place that manufactures the triggers. Even worse, I heard that a few soldiers were Christians. EEK!

    JD (ff5947)

  20. Some of the comments to the ABC piece are great.

    One commenter suggests to the whiners to tell their Gunny they need a new sight because theirs has bible verse on it and see what happens. Heh!

    daleyrocks (718861)

  21. If a story about a verse on a sight makes a “moderate” Muslim take sides against us, the were not moderate to begin with.

    JD (ff5947)

  22. as i understand it, the verse citations can be found on all items they sell, not just the military contracts. if anything, the blame falls on the contracting people who didn’t fully inspect the items they were purchasing and specify that they be citation free. that’s one of the drawbacks of COTS acquisition. had they done so, the sights would have taken that much longer to get in the system, and in the hands of the troops, and would have cost that much more per unit.

    this is a bunch of BS stirred up by the so called “religious freedom” asshats and the anti-American MFM. i’ll start worrying about the muslims being offended by bible verses when they stop persecuting christians and jews.

    of course, when that happens, they will have evolved to the point that the verses won’t bother them any more, and the problem will be solved.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  23. Helen Thomas keeps asking in the White House press briefings why the Islamic extremists attack us. I think ABC news just found the answer.

    THIS IS WHY THEY HATE US!!!!!!! Excapt that nobody noticed before now.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  24. aphrael .. Glad to see you are back. I have missed your insight and understanding.

    highpockets (bb65bc)

  25. I recall reading that during World War 2, American military chaplains routinely would bless not only the troops’ rations but all their equipment, including their jeeps and tanks and aircraft. I’ve certainly seen plenty of film and photos of American soldiers and sailors who would inscribe symbolic messages — often quite funny, profane, and otherwise politically incorrect — on munitions about to be dropped or fired at the enemy. It wouldn’t surprise me if at least some of those inscriptions had religious messages or overtones.

    It’s significant, I think, that this particular story is something only coming into public discussion because of “Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group that seeks to preserve the separation of church and state in the military” — in other words, a bunch of atheist moonbats — as assisted by the reporting of ABC News.

    It would be a very different thing if, for example, Marine snipers were to have been bragging about how the Bible verses helped them snuff out the sons of Allah or some such.

    Until this anti-Christian group and the MSM made a big deal of it, in other words, this was a fairly discrete method of expression of religious belief from a manufacturer (more specifically, its late founder and current management) — not an expression of religious belief or practice by the U.S. government or the soldiers who use these products. The inscriptions cost the government nothing; they don’t affect the usefulness of the products; they weren’t the reason that the products were selected, and neither should they be a reason for the products to be rejected.

    I would make a large wager that the members of “Military Religious Freedom Foundation” were among those pitching a hissy fit when the (false and malicious) reports of American soldiers flushing a Koran at Gitmo were in circulation. The “Blame America First” crowd insist not just that Islam be respected, but that extraordinary measures be taken to avoid any arguable disrespect to it, even by private parties acting in the furtherance of their own differing religious beliefs. When it’s Christianity at issue, however, they want to see it excised — seed, root, and branch — from all aspects of American life.

    Don’t misunderstand me to be saying, however, that the First Amendment isn’t involved here: The U.S. government’s purchase of these products doesn’t amount in any respect to a government “establishment of religion,” but penalizing this private company is indeed a pretty clear example of government interference with the free exercise of religion.

    Beldar (fcf833)

  26. someone should explain to Helen Thomas they hate us because they hate witches, and they think she leads the coven of covens.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  27. “Aint no moo-slims on our side.”

    imdw – Really? That’s not what Obama keeps saying.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  28. Just terrrible — blowing a hole in some Pashtun hillbilly is ok, but using Scripture to adjust for windage is beyond the pale.

    furious (71af32)

  29. Better not see one of these “objectors” drinking from an In-N-Out drink cup either.

    PatriotRider (1729de)

  30. Dana,
    And yet, according to the article, it’s an American advocacy group that is complaining, not the moderate Muslims.

    I’m sure they’ll be heard from soon, now that they know of it. This kind of thing was bound to leak anyway, so it was ill-advised from the beginning. The victory in Iraq is fragile, and could still break down. Anything that gives the appearance that U.S. soldiers are fighting for Christianity against Islam could destabilize the country.

    And if Iraq does slip back, do you think Obama will respond with another surge, or just pull out?

    Bradley J. Fikes, C. O.R. (a18ddc)

  31. Hey, what about In ‘N Out Burger?

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  32. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition, brother.

    Dmac (539341)

  33. oh no… someone got bible cooties all over the rifles.

    Look, this is one of those things where you begrudgingly say, yeah the libs are right. but they are being duschy to even care.

    A.W. (f97997)

  34. If you look a little deeper, the ‘bible citations’ are in fact serial numbers. Trijicon chooses its serial numbers (which the military requires each piece to have, and within certain specifications, so it can be tracked through orders and purchase and repair etc) so that they also refer to bible verses. Pretty clever actually. So a serial number will be something like ‘JN8:12′.

    It hearkens back to the John 3:16 passage that comes with every Buck knife sold (and the earlier more personal prayer that Hoyt Buck used to include thanking God for the ability to make such good knives).

    Personally, I think that if you get shot with a Jesus rifle, it should be a little hint to you that you should reconsider what side you’re on.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  35. if anything, the blame falls on the contracting people who didn’t fully inspect the items they were purchasing and specify that they be citation free

    Oh, absolutely. The company is doing nothing wrong; this is just like the bible verses printed on in-n-out wrappings. But the people overseeing arms purchasing for the Pentagon should have noticed it and made an issue of it.

    i’ll start worrying about the muslims being offended by bible verses when they stop persecuting christians and jews.

    Again: as much as possible, we need the townspeople and villagers of Afghanistan and Iraq to not be our enemies … so we need to worry about doing things which make it more likely that they will take sides against us. The mere likelihood of that result is not enough to mean we shouldn’t do something, but it’s an added cost to doing something which should be weighed when we are figuring out whether or not we wish to do something; and in this particular case, it seems like a cost which is not balanced by any particular benefit.

    during World War 2, American military chaplains routinely would bless not only the troops’ rations but all their equipment, including their jeeps and tanks and aircraft.

    Right, but in that particular war, there was no plausible argument that we were fighting a religious war. That’s not the case now; it’s obvious to us that we’re not fighting a religious war, but to low-information people on the ground in the countries we are fighting in, it’s not obvious.

    It’s significant, I think, that this particular story is something only coming into public discussion because of “Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group that seeks to preserve the separation of church and state in the military” — in other words, a bunch of atheist moonbats — as assisted by the reporting of ABC News.

    That’s certainly possible; but, while I suppose it’s understandable that an issue raised by an organization you hold in ill repute would be tainted by that association, I think it’s misguided.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  36. Don’t misunderstand me to be saying, however, that the First Amendment isn’t involved here: The U.S. government’s purchase of these products doesn’t amount in any respect to a government “establishment of religion,” but penalizing this private company is indeed a pretty clear example of government interference with the free exercise of religion.

    Beldar, then in light of your above comment, does that nullify the claims of the advocacy group leader or are there federal laws that it breaks?

    “It’s wrong, it violates the Constitution, it violates a number of federal laws,” said Michael “Mikey” Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group that seeks to preserve the separation of church and state in the military.

    Dana (f64b7d)

  37. All Jesuslander X-ians should be banned from the military. That way, nobody will ever think we are engaged in a war of christian aggression.

    JD (ff5947)

  38. I’ll bet those damn optics have crosses inside them too for aiming, yet another Christian symbol snuck in there by this manufacturer. It is damn offensive to offend people before we kill them with these weapons.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  39. as much as possible, we need the townspeople and villagers of Afghanistan and Iraq to not be our enemies … so we need to worry about doing things which make it more likely that they will take sides against us.

    But aphrael, the townspeople and villagers are not and have not been the ones complaining. It was an advocacy group of Americans.

    And if you read the clarification of luagha — 1/18/2010 @ 4:13 pm, it clearly wasn’t a written out verse.

    Dana (f64b7d)

  40. Aphrael – Do you think there is a plausible justification that we are fighting a religious war now? How does a serial number on a sight change that?

    JD (ff5947)

  41. Again, I sure hope that the folks disturbed on Biblical verses on rifle sights don’t ever, ever choose to go to “In ‘N Out Burger.”

    Because they have Biblical verses everywhere.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-N-Out_Burger#Bible_references

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  42. #25 Beldar: You sir, are my hero. Well said.

    #30 Bradley J. Fikes:

    This kind of thing was bound to leak anyway

    As noted above, there isn’t anything to leak. This is simply the manufacturer’s prerogative to build their product as they see fit.

    The freakin’ nutballs like Weinstein are already blowing this way out of proportion…no need to add any more hysteria. (And Weinstein’s group wasn’t exactly real popular with anybody when I was in. Just another maroon attempting to stretch the Constitution all out of shape to accommodate their own agenda.)

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  43. Aphrael

    > But the people overseeing arms purchasing for the Pentagon should have noticed it and made an issue of it.

    I think that is unfair. I have seen the pics, its not exactly easy to notice. You have to deliberately looking for a code.

    > so we need to worry about doing things which make it more likely that they will take sides against us.

    Well, I am sure you will apply that argument to women and gays in the military, too, right? Personally I think we are too tolerant of their intolerance. For instance, I have become convinced that we should take all the remains of islamofascist terrorists and bury them with pigs. According to their f—ed up faith, that means go straight to hell, no 72 virgins. They use their faith as a weapon against us, I say we return the favor.

    > Right, but in that particular war, there was no plausible argument that we were fighting a religious war

    And it still isn’t. Just because a bunch of nutjobs in caves want to call it a crusade, doesn’t make it a crusade. Sheesh. And Jesus cooties on rifles doesn’t change that.

    But there is nothing wrong with saying to them, “we are not helping you in spite of our Christianity, but because of it.”

    > That’s certainly possible

    The fact is no one noticed until some weenies complained.

    A.W. (f97997)

  44. It’s very unobtrusive and sweet cause of it’s a cultural fillip sort of thing what you find in a sort of… culturally neutral place…

    Why dirty socialists even care if soldiers are reminded that the world is a spiritual place and that they have a part in that is I think is their own mysterious sickness… I don’t think they relate well with real people. I really don’t.

    happyfeet (e9e587)

  45. that wasn’t really english was it

    happyfeet (e9e587)

  46. Hey, what about In ‘N Out Burger?

    In ‘n’ Out puts a Bible verse on the bottom of its drink cups.

    Some chump (d97978)

  47. I expected better from Beldar than the “anti-Christian” persecution meme. It doesn’t apply here.

    Beldar failed to address the context of these current wars, in which our allies as well as our enemies are Muslims. It’s not like fighting Nazi Germany. Anything that gives the impression we are on a Crusade could upset the fragile victory in Iraq, and should be avoided. What’s so hard to understand about that?

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (474b88)

  48. Dana: the townspeople and villagers probably don’t know yet. How will they likely react when they do know?

    JD: plausible to whom?

    I think that for someone living in a village in Afghanistan or Iraq, who doesn’t have access to information sources that might undermine the rumors they hear from their friends, neighbors, and priests, the argument that the US is making war on Islam is plausible. There’s information out there which contradicts it, in the presence of which it is impossible to hold such a belief; but where does that information come from, and how does it get to the people I’m talking about?

    The presence of the verses adds credibility to the theory. It’s a provable fact which can be used to bolster the credibility of more extreme claims – some dude claims that this is true and that other, more extreme things are also true; the person listening to this first dude challenges it; he can prove this one claim … which instantly makes other claims more credible and believable.

    This seems to me to be a pretty standard technique for the spreading of paranoid conspiracy theories through populations which are predisposed to believe them; it’s something we’d be better off not playing into the hands of.

    Eric Blair: aye, I believe I mentioned in-n-out, as well. :) I have no problem with the presence of bible verses on in-n-out’s wrapping paper, and I don’t actually have a problem with the presence of bible verses on guns per se … I just have a problem with the US army using such guns in a war against extremist dissidents of a non-Christian religion. It’s a special case situation which calls for caution which otherwise would be unnecessary.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  49. @Eric Blair: Because Bible verses on a soft drink cup is the same as putting Bible verses on a rifle…? Are you kidding me? Would there be anything you’d object to putting Bible verses on?

    Elhaym (73bbf1)

  50. #35 aphrael:

    it seems like a cost which is not balanced by any particular benefit.

    On the contrary, not discriminating against the manufacturer for their religious beliefs is part and parcel of who and what we are as a nation and a people.

    And that is exactly the reason we are at war, rather than rolling over and surrendering to a barbarian horde who would destroy all that is important to us.

    Some things are worth the cost~and if we allow ourselves to be bullied into submission merely because the appearance of a thing might give offense to a murderous barbarian already intent on our extinction, then we are already lost.

    Same with the Mohammed cartoons published by Jyllands-Posten…the craven way the West reacted to the perceived outrage of a bunch of terrorists was despicable, and so is this tempest in a teapot.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  51. Brother

    I love the assymetrical tolerance. We are supposed to differentiate between good and bad jihad, but crusade is the word that we dare not speak.

    I wish we had a president who had the balls to say, “yes, this is a crusade. get used to that term. its not a bad term in our language. it refers in our language to a just cause. so you bet your a– that this is a crusade.”

    A.W. (f97997)

  52. As noted above, there isn’t anything to leak. This is simply the manufacturer’s prerogative to build their product as they see fit.

    If there isn’t anything to leak, then why did DRJ post on this issue, and why are we discussing it?

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (474b88)

  53. #49:

    Would there be anything you’d object to putting Bible verses on?

    I wouldn’t tattoo them on my ass, but that’
    s because its against my religion.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  54. but penalizing this private company is indeed a pretty clear example of government interference with the free exercise of religion.

    Are you asserting that selling products to the military that do not meet the military’s requirements is a matter of free exercise?

    From the article: “U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan […]”

    I suppose one could argue that Jesus Rifles aren’t proselytization, but I wouldn’t want to have to defend that argument., especially if I were a company trying to keep a 9 digit contract.

    jamie (6feb1a)

  55. Whoever knew about those sites containing biblical verses and still made the decision to purchase them,

    Should be removed from the military and courtmartialed for gross stupidity and endangering their fellow soldiers

    EricPWJohnson (57489c)

  56. “I expected better from Beldar than the “anti-Christian” persecution meme. It doesn’t apply here.”

    Bradley – From the ABC piece, the references to the bible verses were hiding in plain sight and were no secret. The only action which gained attention for them os the anti-religious group’s ability to gain ABC’s attention and have them cover it. Nothing new. It’s simple.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  57. I have seen the pics, its not exactly easy to notice. You have to deliberately looking for a code.

    Fair enough; I haven’t seen them, so it’s hard for me to say

    Well, I am sure you will apply that argument to women and gays in the military, too, right?

    If we could structure the armed forces to allow women and gays in the military except in those units which were engaged in combat operations in countries where this would be a problem, then I would have no problem with it. I suspect that such an arrangement is administratively difficult at best.

    That said, allowing women and gays in the military isn’t an assault on the religion in quite the same way that using weapons with religious verses inscribed on them is.

    And it still isn’t. Just because a bunch of nutjobs in caves want to call it a crusade, doesn’t make it a crusade. Sheesh. And Jesus cooties on rifles doesn’t change that.

    The question is: what is believable to villagers and townspeople in Iraq and Afghanistan? The fact that it’s obviously not a crusade to you or me is irrelevant; our opinions on the subject aren’t going to influence whether or not soldiers are put at risk by locals who have been convinced that we are the enemy.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  58. On the contrary, not discriminating against the manufacturer for their religious beliefs is part and parcel of who and what we are as a nation and a people.

    The manufacturer’s actions are the problem, not its religious beliefs.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (474b88)

  59. It would be a South African. They also thought that God had made the Bantus to be their slaves.

    nk (df76d4)

  60. But for you, my fellow commenters, why is invoking your God in killing ok, and not ok for the Jihadis who invoke their God?

    nk (df76d4)

  61. #47 Bradley J. Fikes:

    failed to address the context of these current wars

    If you’ll allow me the liberty, I will.

    We are currently fighting a religious war against a barbarian horde that desires to destroy our civilization, and execute genocide against significant populations of peoples worldwide. That a piece of equipment used in the prosecution of our defense might be inscribed with an inspirational phrase from a book that our enemies claim to revere is certainly not a sufficient reason to hamper our war effort by prohibiting that item.

    If there isn’t anything to leak, then why did DRJ post on this issue, and why are we discussing it?

    Because an idiotic jackass pushing an agenda of his own, that is also not in the best interests of our civilization as a whole, chose to get as much mileage as possible from a formerly non-issue.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  62. We should ban bacon in the military too. And ban any Jesuslander Xianist.

    JD (4a3a45)

  63. EricPWJohnson: I agree if they knew. But I think that demonstrating that knowledge would be hard, especially if they are as small and innocuous as AW is making them out to be.

    not discriminating against the manufacturer for their religious beliefs is part and parcel of who and what we are as a nation and a people.

    Who said anything about discriminating against the manufacturer?

    I mean, I think the right thing to do is to go to the manufacturer and say, “look, we think your product is really good, and we’d like to buy it, but we’re worried about offending our allies on the ground by being overtly religious in our war against people who share a religion with our allies, because they’re kinda sensitive about it, so we think it would be better to use products that aren’t overtly religious … so could you, as a favor to us, make versions of these without the biblical references? It would make them much more useful to us if you did.”

    Winning the war is worth paying small prices to not irritate our allies.

    merely because the appearance of a thing might give offense to a murderous barbarian already intent on our extinction

    That’s a mischaracterization of my argument.

    I don’t care about the murderous barbarian already intent on my extinction.

    I care about the normal guys on the street corner in Kabul who have a choice between throwing their lot in with the infidel who came to their country to help them or the murderous barbarian who is part of their tribe. I disapprove of bible verses on American weapons of war because they tend to heighten the degree to which we our outsiders and our enemies are compatriots of the people we are there to help … and they make the task of convincing the mass of people to choose our side more difficult.

    Maybe it’s a marginal increase in difficulty. But even so, it’s an increase in difficulty which we don’t need to bear.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  64. “If a story about a verse on a sight makes a “moderate” Muslim take sides against us, the were not moderate to begin with.”

    So it’s like when Michelle Malkin or Debbie Schlussel whine about a crescent somewhere? or more moderate than that?

    imdw (f7b257)

  65. We are currently fighting a religious war against a barbarian horde that desires to destroy our civilization, and execute genocide against significant populations of peoples worldwide.

    If we’re fighting a religious war, then what incentive do the millions of Muslims around the world have to not take up arms against us? What place is there for Muslims who do not desire to destroy our civilization other than to become radicalized enemies? And what place is there for those in our civilization who do not share the majority religion and are not comfortable fighting a religious war?

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  66. aphrael, we are fighting a religious war. We just are not the one’s who made it a religious confrontation. The enemy did. Not everyone on the Reformist side of the Thirty Years War was protestant.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  67. We should immediately bring home all non-denominational chaplains too. And quit using a red cross on medical vehicles. And take “in God we Trust” off of our currency.

    JD (4a3a45)

  68. I don’t agree with the notations being on the rifles, but to complain about it at this level of hysteria is just another example of the too many heads – stuck – in – the – sand attitude typically on display from the West. Either start taking this war seriously or offer coherent alternatives.

    Dmac (539341)

  69. Why hasn’t Obama spoken out about this? Is it just that he’s a coward or does he genuinely need to wait for polling data?

    happyfeet (e9e587)

  70. So it’s like when Michelle Malkin or Debbie Schlussel whine about a crescent somewhere?

    Somwhere like a Memorial to the people on Flight 93 who died saving the White House or Pentagon from being a terrorist target perhaps?

    JVW (48cbba)

  71. Aphrael

    > If we could structure the armed forces to allow women and gays in the military except in those units which were engaged in combat operations in countries where this would be a problem, then I would have no problem with it. I suspect that such an arrangement is administratively difficult at best.

    Right, so let’s just throw them out entirely. I mean that is consistent right? I mean why bother uprooting our manufacturer of guns over this crap, if you aren’t even going to go half way. Which do you think offends the average Muslim more? our “moral depravity”? or a few bible cooties on guns?

    Look, the reason why we shouldn’t have bible codes on rifles isn’t because we don’t want to offend the religion of perpetual outrage, but because we shouldn’t be doing this to those soldiers who are not Christian. But when I hear a person talk like as if we can satisfy the islamofascists by being sufficiently nice to them, it makes my blood boil. Its just appeasement 2.0, and it only results in our humiliation.

    Years ago mark steyn wrote a column where he pointed out that one of the big thinkers in radical Islam was radicalized after he saw a display of Americans dancing, gyrating, in a way that utterly horrified him. He quoted a long passage from that man’s writings describing the evil, wicked way they danced, barely clothed, simulating sex, and so on.

    Then Steyn revealed that the man was talking about a black church, in the 1950’s.

    There’s no satisfying these idiots until you have given up all of your freedom and all that you believe in. So don’t waste your time. And don’t annoy me with your political correctness. For I am not the only one that noticed that every time a liberal asks us to do something to make the terrorists like us better, its always something that appalls conservatives, but fits right in with the liberal agenda. I mean, my god, we had liberal idiots claiming we needed to build day cares in Afghanistan, as though bin laden is upset that jihadi women cannot work out of the home because they have no one to take care of their children. Its unreality. Its freeloading on terrorism to push your own agenda through. So stop it. Just stop it.

    > The question is: what is believable to villagers and townspeople in Iraq and Afghanistan?

    I find it unbelievable that they could read enough of the Romanized alphabet to recognize a bible code if it was waved in their face. *rolls eyes* So they will believe it because someone who claims to know will say it. I find it amazing that you are so concerned about the opinions of people you yourself described as uninformed.

    A.W. (f97997)

  72. Why hasn’t Obama spoken out about this? Is it just that he’s a coward or does he genuinely need to wait for polling data?

    Happyfeet, if you have to ask. . .

    JVW (48cbba)

  73. “..Would there be anything you’d object to putting Bible verses on?…”

    Spent any money recently? It drives the atheists up a wall. Yet they still spend and earn it.

    Hey, imdw? Nice attempt to play your usual equivalence game. Sort of like the debunked lies about flushing a Q’uran down a toilet, right?

    And aphrael, you are a courtly and polite person. But it is a slippery slope indeed that starts with:

    “..The question is: what is believable to villagers and townspeople in Iraq and Afghanistan? The fact that it’s obviously not a crusade to you or me is irrelevant; our opinions on the subject aren’t going to influence whether or not soldiers are put at risk by locals who have been convinced that we are the enemy…”

    It can very easily end with “poor uneducated crazies.” I have always felt that there was the scent of racism and elitism in this line of reasoning about Muslims as a whole.

    Again, NO disrespect to you in any way aphrael. You are always thoughtful and polite.

    It’s funny how extremely concerned we are with things like this, and yet we ignore larger issues in such a cavalier fashion.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  74. #58 Bradley J. Fikes:

    The manufacturer’s actions are the problem,

    What, the manufacturer is now in charge of conducting our warfare?

    #60 nk:

    why is invoking your God in killing ok, and not ok for the Jihadis who invoke their God?

    What, did somebody really say that?

    There is never a good reason for killing. There are some that are not as bad as others: and it is our practice to ask forgiveness for the sin we are about to commit as we go into battle.

    A little different than the jihadi practice of praying for as much bloodshed and booty as possible.

    #57 aphrael:

    The question is: what is believable to villagers and townspeople in Iraq and Afghanistan?

    Sigh. No, aphrael, it isn’t.

    Our enemy already paints us as the worst kinds of demons to walk the Earth, as hellspawned monsters invading the sacred lands of a bunch of penniless peasants to profit from their misery.

    There isn’t anything that has not been said about our troops and our mission to sway the native peoples against us~and it will continue. They don’t need a reason to lie about us and our goals.

    The effective deterrent to such propaganda is getting our troops into contact with those people, so that they can see that there aren’t devil’s horns under the helmets and that we aren’t there to steal the carpets from their walls or their goats or their chickens or whatever.

    After all, it isn’t as if the villagers and townspeople are going to be looking at our equipment and reading the reference, and then running home to their bookshelf to see if its a biblical reference.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  75. nk

    > But for you, my fellow commenters, why is invoking your God in killing ok, and not ok for the Jihadis who invoke their God?

    No one is opposed to invoking the name of God, allah, or whathaveyou in war. What we are opposed to is the cause for which it is invoked, and the quality of the faith invoking it. Christians in our military fight to liberate; the islamofascists fight to enslave. And their methods betray their evil further. They rape women and then tell them they sinned and the only way to make right with God is to suicide bomb others. They take children as young as 8 and strap bombs to them. They take retarded men, strap bombs to them, and send them toward people who have the temerity to participate in a free election.

    Its not the fact they shout that God is great, but the simple fact that their version of God is a monster.

    A.W. (f97997)

  76. A.W., a church that was in Greeley Colorado in fact.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  77. #63 aphrael:

    That’s a mischaracterization of my argument.

    No, it isn’t. Right above that, you say:

    Winning the war is worth paying small prices to not irritate our allies.

    First, it is not a small price: its the crux of the imbroglio to begin with; and second, if they are our allies, that isn’t sufficient irritation to alienate them.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  78. There’s little bible verse thingers really really small on rifle scopes. This morning I didn’t know about this and yet now that I know about this I feel like it hasn’t had any impact on me whatsoever.

    How weird is that? I must be like.. what do you call it… desensitized to little bible verse thingers on rifle scopes.

    It’s the times.

    happyfeet (e9e587)

  79. spqr

    thanks for the assist. you can read about it, here:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120190688451636621.html

    A.W. (f97997)

  80. EW1(SG),

    What, the manufacturer is now in charge of conducting our warfare?

    I thought my meaning was clear, but I’ll spell it out in greater detail.

    This was the comment at issue:

    On the contrary, not discriminating against the manufacturer for their religious beliefs is part and parcel of who and what we are as a nation and a people.

    I replied:

    The manufacturer’s actions are the problem, not its religious beliefs.

    That refers to the manufacturer’s actions in secretly inscribing the religious references onto the sights. The attempt to spin the manufacturer’s actions into a criticism of its religious beliefs is a deliberate distraction from what took place.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (233461)

  81. However, I would gladly agree if the U.S. government intervened on another matter of religion and bought this anti-religious book for all federal employees.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (233461)

  82. For I am not the only one that noticed that every time a liberal asks us to do something to make the terrorists like us better, its always something that appalls conservatives, but fits right in with the liberal agenda.

    It advances our national interest to not have the world bear ill will towards us. The goal isn’t to be sensitive to terrorists, but to not want to piss off our allies or those who are neutral with regards to us. When there is a simple solution, such as not buying guns with Bible verses on them, why wouldn’t you want to please others? The world isn’t black and white and it doesn’t advance this country’s interests to pretend like it is.

    Elhaym (73bbf1)

  83. > When there is a simple solution, such as not buying guns with Bible verses on them, why wouldn’t you want to please others?

    Um, because it will do nothing. no the reason to do or not do that isn’t to make the islamofascists happy. i am not interested in making them happy.

    A.W. (f97997)

  84. “The way to move out of the quagmire is to be concerned more about what the people who aren’t our enemies think.”
    I’m more concerned about people who think that they’re intelligent crafting such vapid tripe.

    “Aint no moo-slims on our side.”
    Wrong as usual, idiot. But if you’d like to share your brilliant insight with the Muslim members of my platoon who immigrated from Morocco, Lebanon, Nigeria, and Egypt, I’m sure they’d enjoy a hearty laugh at your expense.

    SPC Jack Klompus (237c0e)

  85. EW1(SG),

    We are currently fighting a religious war against a barbarian horde that desires to destroy our civilization, and execute genocide against significant populations of peoples worldwide. That a piece of equipment used in the prosecution of our defense might be inscribed with an inspirational phrase from a book that our enemies claim to revere is certainly not a sufficient reason to hamper our war effort by prohibiting that item.

    Prohibit, no. Just be sure to specify in the future that no such religious messages are allowed, because they are not part of the item’s specifications. Problem solved.

    Because an idiotic jackass pushing an agenda of his own, that is also not in the best interests of our civilization as a whole, chose to get as much mileage as possible from a formerly non-issue.

    The real “jackass” was the person who decided to proselytize his religion on the taxpayer’s dime. If the message were an atheist one, would you have been so supportive?

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (233461)

  86. @A.W.: Where did I say anything about making the Islamofascists happy? I couldn’t give a shit about what they think. I am concerned however about what our allies and those who aren’t our enemies think. Don’t we want to not piss off moderate Muslims? I don’t think something like this would turn someone to terrorism. However, it could very well diminish the political capital our political allies might have in their countries that they could be using to advance our interests. Isn’t this important to you?

    Elhaym (73bbf1)

  87. Dana (#36 — 1/18/2010 @ 4:19 pm): I don’t know what federal laws the guy was referencing. It’s conceivable to me that Mikey Weinstein has some federal statutes that, for example, prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion in awarding government contracts. (My hunch is that such statutes would actually protect, rather than condemn, Trijicon’s actions, but that’s just a hunch.) However, given Weinstein’s other hyperbole — e.g., claiming that this “probably the best example of violation of the separation of church and state in this country” — I’m not inclined to give his other broad and unsupported legal pronouncements much credit at this point.

    Look, all of the munitions purchased by the U.S. government for use by our soldiers are probably paid for by government check in funds convertable into U.S. dollars that say, “In God We Trust.” That’s far more overtly religious, and of the Judeo-Christian religions, than using “2COR4:6″ as part of a serial-number protocol.

    Bro. Bradley (#47 — 1/18/2010 @ 4:31 pm), you wrote, “Anything that gives the impression we are on a Crusade could upset the fragile victory in Iraq, and should be avoided.” If you re-worded that to say, “Significant actions by the United States government or military which give the impression we are on a Crusade …,” then I’d agree with you. Attributing the Bible verses to either the government or military — simply on grounds that they purchased products from someone who chose a religious theme for its serial number protocols — is profoundly silly. It’s silly for the Military Religious Freedom Foundation to do it; it would be silly for the people in Iraq or Afghanistan to do it. This simply doesn’t represent American government or military policy, and anyone who argues to the contrary is making the proverbial mountain out of a very, very modest (and possibly constitutionally protected) molehill.

    Beldar (fcf833)

  88. I have a small compromise to suggest. Maybe we could put the religious reference on the bullets. That way, we wouldn’t have to worry about our friends being offended. The offense would be brief; between the time the bullet struck and the time that 72 virgins take over.

    Sheesh !

    Mike K (2cf494)

  89. What’s the second-best example of violation of the separation of church and state in this country you figure?

    happyfeet (e9e587)

  90. Is anybody actually reading the article?

    Coded references to New Testament Bible passages

    One of the citations on the gun sights, 2COR4:6

    Only ONE person has brought it up, and nobody seems willing to engage him on the actual *issue*.

    Okay, here’s a question. If you’re an uneducated Pashtun villager somewhere in the dump that is Afghanistan, and you come across a “high-powered rifle sight” (however you came across it), what are the chances that you will (a) be able to read 2COR4:6 and (b) understand what it means in context and (c) recognise what it references?

    I suspect the answer is ‘slim to none’.

    And here you are, aphrael, and Bradley J Fikes, and a whole host of other people, piling on a manufacturer who as far as I can tell has done absolutely nothing wrong.

    I mean, it’s one thing if you have a clear inscription that says “Believe in Jesus or die, you infidel” embossed with bright neon paint. It isn’t even that. Next you’ll be talking about banning grenades with serial numbers FSMxxxxxx because the founder of the grenade manufacturer was Pastafarian and it references the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

    It’s exactly the same, so for crying out loud put a sock in it.

    Gregory (f7735e)

  91. I’ll grant the South African the benefit of the doubt. That his message is “Shoot to miss”.

    nk (df76d4)

  92. Yeah, it ain’t like they are shouting Allahu Akbar when they blow themselves up or anything.

    Rhymes With Right (34e953)

  93. Elhaym – If hearing that 2COR4:6 was inscribed on the sight of a rifle, a “moderate” chose to align against us, there is no real good argument that they were actually a moderate. Plus, pigs.

    JD (eef042)

  94. Beldar, thank you for the reply.

    Attributing the Bible verses to either the government or military — simply on grounds that they purchased products from someone who chose a religious theme for its serial number protocols — is profoundly silly.

    I never said they were. The message was placed by the manufacturer, which I think is unwise in the religious context of the wars. That is a serious issue.

    This simply doesn’t represent American government or military policy, and anyone who argues to the contrary is making the proverbial mountain out of a very, very modest (and possibly constitutionally protected) molehill.

    If you are implying that such inscribing such religious messages on government-purchased equipment is a constitutional right, then we can look forward to a proliferation of such messages from various religious groups. That will keep you lawyers busy. :-)

    I’m looking forward to the “Battlefield Earth” Xenu-blasters, myself.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (233461)

  95. Bro. Bradley, you also wrote (# 85 — 1/18/2010 @ 5:48 pm:

    Prohibit, no. Just be sure to specify in the future that no such religious messages are allowed, because they are not part of the item’s specifications. Problem solved.

    ….

    The real “jackass” was the person who decided to proselytize his religion on the taxpayer’s dime….

    As far as so far appears, the current specifications require some serial number protocol for weapons identification, but doesn’t contain any prohibition. You’re talking about re-writing the specifications so that they prohibit serial number protocols based on any religious scripture or speech. That would, I believe, probably violate the Free Exercise clause. (The only reason I equivocate is that I think the SCOTUS might give increased deference to the Commander in Chief’s wartime constitutional powers to regulate and direct the military; but I think that’s ultimately not an adequate defense against government prohibitions here because the speech is that of a private entity, not the military itself.)

    It’s not being done “on the taxpayer’s dime.” The government is only paying for the product. Inscribing some serial number is a cost built into the price of the weapon. The government’s dimes aren’t going specifically for Bible-verse based serial numbers instead of some other secular or random protocol.

    And your “action versus speech” argument is one that’s been rejected repeatedly by the Supreme Court. This is something written which — apart from its ability to uniquely identify a particular unit — has no effect whatsoever on its functionality. (I don’t understand the company to be arguing that angels collaborate with their products to improve Christian soldiers’ aim.) It is speech that expresses religious belief, and broadcasting that religious speech is certainly part of the very core of free exercise of religion.

    Beldar (fcf833)

  96. And here you are, aphrael, and Bradley J Fikes, and a whole host of other people, piling on a manufacturer who as far as I can tell has done absolutely nothing wrong.

    The manufacturer used a military contract to promote his religious views. That’s proselytizing on the taxpayer’s dime. And it injects religion into two wars where religious issues need to be handled with great delicacy.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (233461)

  97. Seriously, Beldar?

    You really don’t think that the sightmaker is saying either

    “1) Shoot this gun and you’re doing God’s will; or
    2) Shoot this gun and and you’re sinning”?

    nk (df76d4)

  98. Elhaym – If hearing that 2COR4:6 was inscribed on the sight of a rifle, a “moderate” chose to align against us, there is no real good argument that they were actually a moderate. Plus, pigs.

    Who says they’d align against us? Maybe they just wouldn’t be willing or politically able to do as much for us as they’d be able to otherwise. We’re never going to solve many of the situations in the Middle-East without a lot of support from allies there. Do you want to make our allies jobs harder?

    I agree with you on the pigs front. But that’s because it’s really easy to just not buy guns with Biblical verses on them, while it’d be nigh impossible to separate Americans from our bacon. Yum.

    Elhaym (73bbf1)

  99. By way of self-correction: I earlier (#25 — 1/18/2010 @ 4:05 pm) referred, based on nothing but my own assumption, to the Military Religious Freedom Foundation as “moonbats.” Skimming their website’s page of “Foundation Voices,” I would amend that to “wingnut/moonbat.” Weinstein’s a former general counsel to Ross Perot and actually claims conservative credentials, but there are a broad variety of individuals listed. I’m one of those who thinks Perot, of course, is a well-intentioned, charismatic, and remarkable nutcase — one who cost the United States the indignities inflicted on it by Bill Clinton in the Oval Office — but it’s a big tent, yada yada, and others buy into this nonsense with good faith (if with little wisdom).

    Beldar (fcf833)

  100. nk (#97 — 1/18/2010 @ 6:07 pm): The sight-making company may, and probably does, intend some implied commentary like that which you suggest. That doesn’t mean everyone who buys or uses its products is thereby endorsing, adopting, and/or further broadcasting that sentiment.

    Beldar (fcf833)

  101. Elhaym – If you stumbled across an abandoned weapon, and happened to look at the sight with a magnifying glass, and saw a serial number J3:16 would you know that was a biblical reference, and would it make you think that the US was engaged in a war against Islam?

    JD (eef042)

  102. Bradley: But that’s exactly it! Okay, so you’re a Buddhist soldier, and you happen to come across this series of alphanumeric characters. And you know that every piece of military equipment has a serial number.

    Won’t Occam’s Razor lead you to conclude that this is the serial number? If you even thought about it at all. And please explain how an inanimate sight, with not even the hint of a quotation of a Biblical verse, can proselytise. This really puzzles me. For that matter, unless you subscribe to the ‘God works in mysterious ways’ theorem, how can a serial number lead towards evangelism amongst Muslims?

    And hence, what kind of warped, twisted logic could you possibly use to say that this series of alphanumeric characters is somehow *promoting his religious values*?

    nk: It ain’t even a Biblical quotation.

    Gregory (f7735e)

  103. JD: Probably not, and probably not. That’s not really relevant to the matter at hand however. The reality is that this is now a news story and there is no doubt this story will be spread to the Middle-East and will be used as propaganda. Let’s not make Al-Qaeda’s job easier.

    My main objection to this, btw, is as a Christian. Seriously, if you are a practicing Christian, how could you not be uneasy or offended by the concept of putting Biblical verses on a rifle? Yes, a rifle can be used for righteous ends… but it definitely strikes me as a bit blasphemous.

    Elhaym (73bbf1)

  104. 100.nk (#97 — 1/18/2010 @ 6:07 pm): The sight-making company may, and probably does, intend some implied commentary like that which you suggest. That doesn’t mean everyone who buys or uses its products is thereby endorsing, adopting, and/or further broadcasting that sentiment.

    Agreed. I am the last person in the world to do something just because some preacher told me to.

    nk (df76d4)

  105. “Christians in our military fight to liberate; ”

    And the muslims, Jews, wiccans, etc… in and out of our military. What do they fight for?

    imdw (795ee1)

  106. 13.Who Would Jesus Shoot?
    Comment by Elhaym — 1/18/2010

    I don’t believe Jesus ever told His disciples not to physically defend the life of innocents. Hence many people thought WW II was justified.

    I agree with aphrael that there is no reason to add to enemy propaganda unless you have to.

    But I also agree with EW1(SG), A.W., Eric Blair, and others, it’s d— assinine that this is the kind of crap that gets focused on. They behead prisoners, and we try to appease people by giving enemy combatants the civil rights of an American citizen. Our military is the #1 disaster rescue team for the world and the rest of the world can only complain we don’t do it fast enough. And where are the rescue teams from Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Libya?

    No reason to give an enemy reason for propaganda, but propaganda doesn’t depend on truth, and defeating propaganda doesn’t come from finding a way to be perfect.

    Assinine.

    MD in Philly (d4668b)

  107. They fight for you to be able to price your asshattery unfettered, imdw.

    Elhaym – That is a much better point. My only concern is that they have the best, most practical sight for their weapon.

    To pulled pork BBQ either. Or, chaplains.

    JD (eef042)

  108. Price? I meant practice your asshattery unfettered, imdw.

    JD (eef042)

  109. I have great respect for Brother Bradley, and in theory I really do understand his point but I’m still having trouble in my mind separating this issue from this political correctness issue.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  110. Elhaym, you don’t seem to understand what we are talking about. The equipment in question is not a rifle, its an optical sight accessory for the service rifle.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  111. Of interest and, I concede, legitimate concern — in the sense that one must be concerned about even irrational reactions — there’s this from history (footnotes omitted):

    The final spark [in the Indian Rebellion of 1957 a/k/a the “Sepoy Mutiny”] was provided by the reaction of Company officers to the controversy over the ammunition for new Pattern 1853 Enfield Rifle. To load the new rifle, the sepoys had to bite the cartridge open. It was believed that the paper cartridges that were standard issue with the rifle were greased with lard (pork fat) which was regarded as unclean by Muslims, or tallow (beef fat), regarded as anathema to Hindus. East India Company officers first became aware of the impending trouble over the cartridges in January, when they received reports of an altercation between a high-caste sepoy and a low-caste labourer at Dum Dum. The labourer had taunted the sepoy that by biting the cartridge, he had himself lost caste, although at this time the Dum-Dum Arsenal had not actually started to produce the new round, nor had a single practice shot been fired. On January 27, Colonel Richard Birch, the Military Secretary, ordered that all cartridges issued from depots were to be free from grease, and that sepoys could grease them themselves using whatever mixture “they may prefer.” This however, merely caused many sepoys to be convinced that the rumours were true and that their fears were justified.

    This forms the setting for a plot twist in one of the better books in George MacDonald Fraser’s wonderful Flashman series, Flashman in the Great Game.

    Beldar (fcf833)

  112. J316 or 2COR or blah blah blah are not biblical quotations. And, bacon.

    And, Kyoto.

    JD (eef042)

  113. Are you kidding me SPQR? If you have a biblical verse on a scope, and the scope is on a rifle, the biblical verse is on the rifle. The distinction you’re trying to create is irrelevant to what we’re really talking about.

    Elhaym (73bbf1)

  114. Certainly it is irrelevant to the ridiculous and overblown rhetoric you are employing, Elhaym …

    SPQR (26be8b)

  115. I don’t think I was using ridiculous or overblown rhetoric. Maybe you were reading too much into my words. I’m a pretty calm person and not much really gets my goad. I’m approaching this issue from a laid back position thinking about what’s in this country’s best interests. I’ll note that apparently the U.S. military agrees with me, according to that article anyway.

    Elhaym (73bbf1)

  116. For God so loved the world that he gave his only son … Biblical quote (though it may be a bit off). 2COR7 is not a biblical quote, anymore than a dewey decimal number is a quote from a book.

    JD (5b977c)

  117. Definitely not a quote. I was using the term “verse” because the markings referred to specific verses. “John 3:16″ is a way of referring to a specific verse apart from directly quoting it. Thus, to say that “John 3:16″ is a verse is correct. I agree though that to use the word “quote” is erroneous.

    Elhaym (73bbf1)

  118. Would you feel better if they threw in some references to verses from the Koran?

    carl (4774cf)

  119. First we have this:

    However, it could very well diminish the political capital our political allies might have in their countries that they could be using to advance our interests. Isn’t this important to you?

    Then this:

    I don’t think I was using ridiculous or overblown rhetoric.

    We’re talking about a small part of a rifle, yes? I think you better look up the definition of overblown and ridiculous because that earlier statement screams full – on bloviation. The only thing missing was a swelling chorus in the background, replete with ominous orchestral arrangements.

    Dmac (539341)

  120. How big is a serial number on a rifle sight? Would it take a magnifying glass to see it? How many people on the Arab street get the opportunity to inspect the weapons of US servicemen and women?

    JD (0f29d4)

  121. Al J.a.z.e.e.r.a could broadcast a story that all US bullets are dipped in molten p.i.g fat that is melted over the burning of certain b.o.o.k.s that certain people would be irate over, and I doubt there is anything that could be said that would make any difference to those who heard the story and believed it.

    Hopefully there is no one who sees this comment and thinks it is a great idea.

    MD in Philly (d4668b)

  122. Anybody hear a peep out of Mikey Weinstein when Major Nidal was found to be contacting Al-Qaeda and had “SoA” (Soldier of Allah) on his business cards?

    I sure don’t remember — I’d remember the name. What grown man insists on being called “Mikey”?

    L.N. Smithee (b0d0d6)

  123. We’re talking about a small part of a rifle, yes? I think you better look up the definition of overblown and ridiculous because that earlier statement screams full – on bloviation. The only thing missing was a swelling chorus in the background, replete with ominous orchestral arrangements.

    It’s extremely likely this story will be repeated in the Middle East and used as propaganda. It will probably hurt our allies’ political standing by some degree, probably a very small degree. But a degree that we should be trying to avoid. There is nothing overblown or bloviated about this. I wasn’t suggesting, nor were my words, that we would have no more allies. Rather, stories like this tend to have a cumulative negative effect on our interests. Remember that we’re not dealing with rational responses to the event, but the responses of populations introduced to propaganda.

    Elhaym (73bbf1)

  124. L.N. – Mikey Weinstein’s gig is to make war on religious fundamentalism in the U.S., particularly in the military. The fact that we are at war in two muslim countries is irrelevant but convenient to his cause. People need to understand his motivation. Plus, any organization with Ambassador Joe Wilson on it’s Board (who also wrote the foreward to Mikey’s book) has got to be top grawer on anybody’s list.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  125. #80 Bradley J. Fikes:

    That refers to the manufacturer’s actions in secretly inscribing the religious references onto the sights.

    I can’t see where the manufacturer did anything secretly. And as some others have already noted, the references are exactly that: references, not the actual biblical verses that are referenced.

    The attempt to spin the manufacturer’s actions into a criticism of its religious beliefs is a deliberate distraction from what took place.

    I don’t think so. Not being a Christian, the references don’t mean any more to me than any other manufacturers artwork or trademark symbols. And it is not at all uncommon for a manufacturer’s serial numbers series to convey information that isn’t readily apparent to someone outside the firm, but that doesn’t mean that there is anything “secret” about it.

    #85:

    Just be sure to specify in the future that no such religious messages are allowed, because they are not part of the item’s specifications. Problem solved.

    Actually, that seems like the beginning of a whole host of problems…not the least of which is that I don’t know of any way to do that under the Federal Acquisition Regulations.

    You might be able to get away with that if you could demonstrate that the utility of the contracted for item was affected, there is no way in hell you could specify that if the acquisition is for an off the shelf item. My interest as a contracting officer is meeting the specification in the most robust manner possible at the least cost of taxpayer money that I can arrange. Personally, if it allowed me to outfit everybody that needed one with two or three instead, I’d sell advertising space on the damn things. But that would violate the FARs for sure.

    The real “jackass” was the person who decided to proselytize his religion on the taxpayer’s dime. If the message were an atheist one, would you have been so supportive?

    Hey, if it’s the best product on the market at a price point that is mission effective, I don’t give a shit. Really. For a personal example, take a commodity like gasoline. Ya got idiotic gasoline producers running around out there spouting all kinds of AGW nonsense, but my purchase of gasoline from such a producer doesn’t mean that I agree with them or support an asinine cause. (And yes, I know it’s a contrived example…best I can do at the moment.)

    My point is that I think there is a “slippery slope” argument to be made that casting aside our principles to assuage a possible slight to dubious allies based on an ill founded application of the precautionary principle is not cost effective in terms of the damage that it does to us as a republic and as a people. One can argue that we shouldn’t have antagonized “good” Nazis in WWII, but I don’t think that there is a good argument there; and I don’t think there is a good one here and now, either.

    And I think it a specious argument that such a trivial detail could be used to militate against us in theater. The folks that are susceptible to anti-American propaganda will be swayed by far more ridiculous lies about us, and those that have met us already know better.

    #82 Elhaym:

    It advances our national interest to not have the world bear ill will towards us.

    I’m sorry, but that seems like a silly argument to me. The reason to have a military in the first place is because there are actors that bear us ill will. Now, I think it silly to antagonize our allies by, say, giving them CDs that they can’t play or the like…but there are most certainly times when it best serves our national interest to actively make sure that bad actors have reason to bear us ill will.

    Usually by killing them.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  126. #121 MD in Philly:

    Hopefully there is no one who sees this comment and thinks it is a great idea.

    If you haven’t ever watched Al Jazeera, think of Triumph Of The Will as the starting point, and it just goes downhill from there.

    And that’s the English language version.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  127. #122 L.N. Smithee:

    What grown man insists on being called “Mikey”?

    Is that bizarre or what?

    There is a diminutive “y” form of my name. The only person in the world that addresses me that way is my brother, of whom I am genuinely very fond.

    Besides, I’d never hear the end of it from my mom if I broke his legs.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  128. el duderino’s thoughts:

    1) I really hated this at first because I like my serial numbers to be 46 not 2COR4:6, but then I saw the pictures and realized that they also use the NSN, which would be the normal identifier.

    2) I still think it’s bad because I’m sure the Soldiers/Marines/Afghans who would object to having Christian verses on their weapons vastly outnumber those who like having preselected, mechanically-inscribed Christian verses on theirs.

    3) It’s silly to get worked up about it either way, but the company shouldn’t do it in the future.

    4) This Weinstein character could have reported this, and it would have been stopped immediately. He just might have ulterior motives.

    el duderino (f01e0a)

  129. ACK ! For at least 2 reasons …

    2COR4:6 could just as easily be some Sura and verse in the Koran … are we going to let Marines refuse to use any item whose serial number looks like xxx666yyy (where the x can be any character and the y any number) ? Or any kid refuse to learn any historical facts for the year 1666 cuz that contains 666 ? OY !

    Bradley – the Crusades were (for their period) badly-run wars atttempting liberation (with significant unsavoury undertones) … when someone tells you that the word “Crusade” must not be used because in the mind of the Muslim, “the Crusades were only yesterday”, point out to them that, on just that time scale, if the Crusades were only yesterday, then the day before yesterday, thre were NO Muslims … (the Crusades were about from 1096-1272 (about 700-900 years ago) and 1400 years ago is 610 AD (Islam dates after the Hegira in 622 AD – hence no Muslims in 610AD) …

    Amazing how certain folk only want to go back in history conveniently-short times – and want to forget what went on prior to the favoured period …

    Islam spread by wars of conquest … the Crusades mostly tried to fight back and liberate areas which had previously not been Muslim from the Muslims invaders/occupiers … you know, like the Jews in Palestine, for example …

    Alasdair (205079)

  130. “How big is a serial number on a rifle sight? Would it take a magnifying glass to see it? How many people on the Arab street get the opportunity to inspect the weapons of US servicemen and women?”

    Indeed that should settle things down by letting folks know that some american-made rifles are jesus marked and other aren’t and it’s hard to tell the difference and know which one. Maybe we could start putting crescents and even some unitarian candles in some stuff?

    imdw (017d51)

  131. Re: #123
    Ellie May, crawling her fine little self out of the cement pond before feedin’ her critters, chortled: “Remember that we’re not dealing with rational responses to the event, but the responses of populations introduced to propaganda.”

    — Oh, oh, ooohhhhh. NOW it makes sense. See, we all thought you were worried about our allies in the region being overly sensitive to a Christian reference, but you’ve (thank God!) cleared away the confusion with that last statement. Yep, now we know that you’re playing the libby “they’re too stupid to know any better” card. Yeah, ’cause you know that as victims of propoganda they’re doomed to developing negative feelings toward the US as a result of having this story told to them. Nope, they can’t possibly rationalize that it does not matter one whit what is inscribed on any part of a weapon used to kill their radically inclined bretheren. We’re sophisticated enough to know this, they’re not; is that it, elitist eater of the scred pig & the awesome arugula?

    Icy Texan (e446d6)

  132. I actually found the biblical references to be pretty cool, all having to do with light, which is the marksman’s best friend.

    However, I would think that military contracts, like any others, would specify down to the tiniest detail every aspect of the product. So, I find it unacceptable that biblical code language could be authorized. The fact that it has been is further evidence of the growing religious conservative fascism that is America.

    mikeb302000 (6127bb)

  133. “The fact that it has been is further evidence of the growing religious conservative fascism that is America.”

    mikeb302000 – Without seeing the contract specs you don’t have evidence of anything. Sorry.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  134. I can’t believe this is still going on. If the United States finally fails, the last scene will be a bunch of lawyers arguing about whose fault it was.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  135. 2) I still think it’s bad because I’m sure the Soldiers/Marines/Afghans who would object to having Christian verses on their weapons vastly outnumber those who like having preselected, mechanically-inscribed Christian verses on theirs.

    And I think that the number of Soldiers/Marines who don’t even give half of a flying fuck out-numbers both camps by at least an order of magnitude. If you came up with underwear for the military that could stop bullets without injury to the Soldier/Marine, and were comfy, but could ONLY be made in day-glow pink, there are damned few who would refuse to wear them.

    They want stuff that works. BS like this doesn’t matter to them.

    However, I would think that military contracts, like any others, would specify down to the tiniest detail every aspect of the product. So, I find it unacceptable that biblical code language could be authorized. The fact that it has been is further evidence of the growing religious conservative fascism that is America.

    A manufacture’s numbering convention for serial numbers isn’t covered by such a contract, nor should it be. A manufacturer shouldn’t be required to come up with a separate system, as it and the tracking of that second system adds to cost, and the idea is to get the best equipment possible for the lowest price possible.

    How is an encoded reference to a bible passage forcing religion on anyone? Does noticing it thus force, via threats of violence, the viewer to read any sort of religious text (and we aren’t counting “checking what the verse says”). The user is free to read or not read whatever they like, just like if the manufacturer used an inverted Caesar Shift to encode vulgarity into it’s serial numbers.

    Please, give further examples of this “growing religious conservative fascism that is America”, because the last time I checked, Bibles were all but forbidden from being brought by students to school for them read on their own free time, because apparently the mere sight of a Bible if forcing religion on others.

    And when I say evidence, I mean links that don’t rely solely on DKos, PU, or similar sites. I want actual examples, not just you transcribing for the voices in your head.

    Scott Jacobs (46e187)

  136. @IcyTexan: Are you seriously saying propaganda doesn’t work and there are no irrational people in the Middle East? If believing that makes me an elitist, pass the arugula, retard.

    Elhaym (73bbf1)

  137. Mike K.-

    True that.

    If lawyers were really important for survival, there would be a call for them to go to Haiti right now.

    (Now, I do know that we need good lawyers and it has to be murder trying to be one. I’m just saying, Haiti has more need of Bill Frist than John Edwards right now).

    I’m wondering if Mikeb30200 is a bit tongue in cheek with his last line.

    MD in Philly (d4668b)

  138. No, MD, mikeb90210 is an imbecile. Every time.

    JD (bd7f0f)

  139. Codewords! Racists!

    JD (bd7f0f)

  140. Well, I’m bowing out of this topic in favor of something less controversial, like abortion or global warming.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (9eb641)

  141. I will say that I’m concerned about fascism, but not from the Christian right.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (9eb641)

  142. Watch the video here:

    Who would Jesus shoot? U.$. Killing with God’s blessing. http://bit.ly/4U6Lhv Bible references embedded on rifle sights by manufacturer.
    null

    Rain Bojangles (6707a0)

  143. “I would think that military contracts, like any others, would ********NOT********* specify down to the tiniest detail every aspect of the product”

    There, fixed that.

    Of course the military didn’t have this in their contract. You would have to be pretty damn paranoid and out of touch to think it did. This is the military that said nothing about Ft Hood’s Hasan the Soldier of Allah because they are so PC. They didn’t stipulate scripture.

    I don’t mind it being there, but it should be removed and it isn’t professional enough for the US Military. But the hysterical reaction to it is a bigger problem. I don’t really mind a psychological operation pointing out the basic superiority of Christian culture to the Islamist nutty jihad extremo culture. These people can be superstitious in my experience, which is why I would also like some fictitious weapons being advertised. Mind readers, spaceships, underground robot factories, time machines… let them believe it’s hopeless for them, and let them associate our happier, healthier, longer lives with anything other than their version of Islam.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  144. “And I think that the number of Soldiers/Marines who don’t even give half of a flying fuck out-numbers both camps by at least an order of magnitude. If you came up with underwear for the military that could stop bullets without injury to the Soldier/Marine, and were comfy, but could ONLY be made in day-glow pink, there are damned few who would refuse to wear them.”

    That was quite an angry non-rebuttal. Of course most, like me and apparently you, wouldn’t care. And this is really the point. There’s certainly going to be come Christians that really object to this, but nobody who’s going to be in favor. So what’s the point?

    “BS like this doesn’t matter to them.”

    There’s some weird projection going on here.

    2COR4:6 and JN8:12 are not “encoded.” They don’t appear to be part of the serial number either. On an M16, this is the equivalent of having M16A2-JN8:12 above the NSN. What practical purpose does it serve?

    el duderino (f01e0a)

  145. BAN BACON IN THE MILITARY !!!!!!!!!!! AND PULLED PORK BBQ !!!!!!!!! AND CHAPLAINS !!!!!!!!!!

    JD (3399c0)

  146. 136.@IcyTexan: Are you seriously saying propaganda doesn’t work and there are no irrational people in the Middle East? If believing that makes me an elitist, pass the arugula, retard.

    Comment by Elhaym — 1/19/2010 @ 6:31 am

    — Propoganda does work. But you seem to be saying that most (or a significant number) of the people in the Middle East are of weak mind, and are prone to reacting irrationally to anti-US propoganda. Otherwise, why are you so afraid of their potential reaction to this story? See, i’m giving the non-radicalized Muslims (at last count STILL 99% of the world’s Muslim population) a little credit for not overreacting to this non-story about nothing that carries no significance.

    Although, really, the military ought to implement a policy of kicking out all soldiers with tattoos connected to Christianity. Don’t ask, don’t pray!

    Icy Texan (877ca0)

  147. The NSN is the National Stock Number, not the serial number.

    Pons Asinorum (1f16cc)

  148. Sometimes when you shoot stuff and you’re in the military what happens is if you look by where the serial number is you’ll see there’s a reference to a verse in the bible. If this happens to you don’t panic just fall back on your training. You’ll be ok.

    Probably.

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  149. Most soldiers pray to Jesus.

    Reality bites sometimes, but that’s just the way it is. I still pray with my Second Infantry Division bible I was practically issued in Korea.

    This is a crusade. It is Western culture versus Islam. I know that’s painful to recognize and raises a lot of ugly truths about how confused the west is culturally. I know it would be lovely if men would really die for a completely PC culture, but they die for a country they love because of freedoms and ideas that are distinctly cultural.

    And I saying we should preach to our troops? Of course not. But we can’t avoid the fact that we are opposed to a religion in this war.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  150. “the people in the Middle East are of weak mind”

    Icy Texan, not all of them are, but a lot of the ones who are willing to suicide bomb for 72 virgins are stupid. And there’s a reason the Middle East has to go back centuries before it can cite any contributions to mankind’s knowledge.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  151. “And there’s a reason the Middle East has to go back centuries before it can cite any contributions to mankind’s knowledge.”

    Ever see an Amos Gitai film? Or does that not count as middle east?

    [note: fished from spam filter. –Stashiu]

    imdw (e57370)

  152. “The NSN is the National Stock Number, not the serial number.”

    It’s what the military uses to track supplies. Are you saying that “REFLEX1X2-2COR4:6″ is the serial number? Reflex is the series of scopes. I assume 1X2 is the model. So what is the verse? Is it the entirety of the non-military identifier? I don’t know, but it can’t be the extent of any efficient tracking system.

    BTW, I’m looking at the second picture in the gallery.

    el duderino (f01e0a)

  153. It’s what the military uses to track supplies. Are you saying that “REFLEX1X2-2COR4:6″ is the serial number?

    I don’t know.

    Pons Asinorum (1f16cc)

  154. “And there’s a reason the Middle East has to go back centuries before it can cite any contributions to mankind’s knowledge.”

    But you must admit that Baghdad Bob made some significant contributions to comedy.

    el duderino (f01e0a)

  155. @152 el duderino — There are stock numbers, part numbers and serial numbers.

    It is not the stock number but does seem a reasonable part number or serial number.

    I don’t know, but it can’t be the extent of any efficient tracking system.

    PN’s and SN’s are not designed as tracking numbers. Both serve two different purposes. However, with that said, any string of text is easily converted to data and as such, both can be readily used for tracking purposes just as easily as “123”; makes no difference to a database.

    Pons Asinorum (1f16cc)

  156. imdw at 151, you know what, I stand corrected.

    I believe the person you refer to is Israeli, so I could snark that Israel is the exception to Middle Eastern medicrity in countless ways (Arab and Jew in Israel develop all kinds of novel stuff in tech, art, medicine and elsewhere), but if you bring up art I have to concede that the Middle East still has some greatness all over.

    I am a fan of Persian art and film in particular, and it’s true that the middle east has continued to have some excellence. Of course, we all know what drives great art. Hardship.

    I have nothing against the peoples throughout the middle east in any generality, but their cultures have stopped producing the kind of greatness they did before the 8th century in areas outside the subjective.

    I would like for the West to point this out.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  157. …growing religious conservative fascism …

    Someone needs another layer of aluminum in their AFDB.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  158. “It is not the stock number but does seem a reasonable part number or serial number.”

    In the first picture it does seem a reasonable serial number. In the second picture, it doesn’t at all. I’ve been trying to make sense of it, and I keep coming back what I said earlier. It’s exactly analogous to having M16A2-2COR4:6 above the NSN, and I can’t see any practical purpose for that.

    Or am I just wrong that the model above the NSN is normally something simple, e.g. M16A2, M4A1?

    el duderino (f01e0a)

  159. “I have nothing against the peoples throughout the middle east in any generality, but their cultures have stopped producing the kind of greatness they did before the 8th century in areas outside the subjective.”

    ‘Control Room’ was good too. But if you want to set such a low bar why set it before Rumi?

    imdw (1d54b7)

  160. Let me retract 158. The first picture is just another model. The only unique identifier is the verse itself, just like the second picture. I can’t really imagine a stamp that randomly spits out Bible verses. I’d bet (a lot) that this serves no purpose whatsoever.

    el duderino (f01e0a)

  161. The AP ran a less biased version about the 30 year old practice of this Michigan company of placing references to bible verses on its products. As I said last night, the fact that we are currently in wars in Afghanistan and Iraq is irrelevant but convenient to the goals of Mikey Weinstein’s fouindation.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_military_weapons_bible_passages;_ylt=Am4f4T2pAKv_ia5EZJ8BoJWs0NUE;

    daleyrocks (718861)

  162. El

    > Don’t we want to not piss off moderate Muslims?

    Anyone who hates America because we have biblical citations on our weapons is not truly a moderate. And if we want to avoid pissing off the moderates, we would have to do a lot more than scrubbing our guns.

    > The reality is that this is now a news story and there is no doubt this story will be spread to the Middle-East and will be used as propaganda.

    Right. currently in the middle east, millions of Muslims believe that 1) Jews make pies with the blood of Palestinians, and 2) no Muslims were involved in 9-11. The fact is that the truth only has a passing relationship to what is commonly believed. That goes double in countries without freedom of speech; why do you think they will ever report the truth if it helps Americans?

    By the way, just how far do you want to go to avoid creating propaganda for the islamofuqtards? Newsweek reported poorly sourced stories of flushing the Koran down the toilet. Should they have been allowed to do that? And Michael Moore probably created more terrorists than this story. Indeed, all the comparisons of bush to Hitler, claims we were in Iraq and even Afghanistan for the oil, claims we lied about WMDs (as though every mistaken statement is necessarily a lie), these things are all just exercising freedom of speech. But God forbid anyone say something pro-Christian—that should be stomped out.

    Again, why is it that every time we are supposed to do something to avoid creating terrorists, we are supposed to do something the liberals want? When was the last time liberals said, “hey, maybe we should stop pushing gay marriage, because it radicalizes moderate Muslims.”

    It starts to make you think that maybe these liberals are just freeloading on terror to advance their own agenda.

    > My main objection to this, btw, is as a Christian. Seriously, if you are a practicing Christian, how could you not be uneasy or offended by the concept of putting Biblical verses on a rifle? Yes, a rifle can be used for righteous ends… but it definitely strikes me as a bit blasphemous.

    Well, we are less far apart on this point. Look the liberties are right in the result—the inscriptions have to go. But its not because I am worried about offending Johnny Jihad. F— them. And for that matter, it doesn’t offend me although I respect that you might be offended. No, the reason why is because violates the golden rule. I wouldn’t be happy with Koran citations on my rifle, so I can’t accept biblical citations on them either when I know that good patriotic Muslim, Jewish, hindu, etc. Americans will be using them. I mean if you want to scratch something on the rifle to express yourself, more power to you, but that is for the soldier, not the manufacturer.

    > Are you seriously saying propaganda doesn’t work and there are no irrational people in the Middle East?

    Are you under the impression that AQ fact checks its propaganda. “Ahmed, you can’t say that. that is not supported by the infidel source material in the New York Times. And where is your citations to your claims about the Jews all being pigs and apes? We are about nothing if not truth and accuracy.” Sheesh.

    Mike

    > The fact that it has been is further evidence of the growing religious conservative fascism that is America.

    Wow, that is good hyperbole.

    NK

    > You really don’t think that the sightmaker is saying either

    Here is option 3. They know that the person bearing their weapon is likely to be in danger and is hoping God will protect them.

    imdw

    > And the muslims, Jews, wiccans, etc… in and out of our military. What do they fight for?

    Presumably the same thing as the Christians. Look I am only addressing our Christians soldiers v. our islamofascist enemy because that was the question, not to slight our nonchristian soldiers.

    I mean, think of the man who stopped the down’s syndrome bomber on election day in Iraq. The terrorist bastards grabbed some poor handicapped dude, strapped a bomb to his back and sent him toward a group of Iraqis trying to vote. They probably told the guy they had candy or something, the evil bastards. And this hero cop stopped him and literally hugged him to hold him in place, until the bomb went off. He and the handicapped dude died. At the funderal for the police officer, his father declared that his son was in heaven for having died in jihad—the jihad for democracy and against terrorism. I consider it a very positive thing.

    I do not accept the notion that has infected the left that because some faith is misused, all faith is bad; or the attitude infecting many of the right that Islam is inherently bad. I think the best way to understand it is that much of this war is to decide what Islam really is about.

    Dustin

    > And there’s a reason the Middle East has to go back centuries before it can cite any contributions to mankind’s knowledge.

    I always liked Larry Miller on the subject:

    > It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast. Unless I’m missing something, the Arabs haven’t given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.

    Ha!

    A.W. (f97997)

  163. “his father declared that his son was in heaven for having died in jihad—the jihad for democracy and against terrorism. I consider it a very positive thing.”

    That’s beautiful.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  164. dustin they named at least one school after the cop, too.

    A.W. (f97997)

  165. Sorry, but I’m just not concerned about the possibility of a potential suicide bomber reading the story and deciding that THIS is the final straw.

    For such a person has a handler that is psychologically conditioning him for his appointed task. If not this excuse, then another one will be readily invented, whether based on truth or whole cloth. All of this “we shouldn’t give them a reason” talk is total bullshit.

    Hey, maybe we should abandon the Jooos, as Ron Paul would have done, and then they’ll leave us alone!

    Icy Texan (9815c8)


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