Pat Robertson: Haiti’s Curse
[Guest post by DRJ]
TV evangelist Pat Robertson has a flair for saying controversial things: He once suggested that Ariel Sharon’s stroke was divine punishment for “dividing God’s land” and giving away Gaza to the Palestinians. He also wondered if America’s abortion rate could have provoked Hurricane Katrina and the terrorist attacks on the United States. And now, following the earthquake in Haiti, Robertson has once again suggested a disaster might be due to more than bad luck:
“The Haitians “were under the heel of the French. You know, Napoleon III and whatever,” Robertson said on his broadcast Wednesday. “And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, ‘We will serve you if you will get us free from the French.’ True story. And so, the devil said, ‘OK, it’s a deal.'”
Native Haitians defeated French colonists in 1804 and declared independence.
“You know, the Haitians revolted and got themselves free. But ever since, they have been cursed by one thing after the other.”
White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs commented it was “utterly stupid” to think a nation’s actions could cause it to be cursed.
Apparently Jeremiah Wright (“God Damn America” and the United States brought on the 9/11 attacks with its own “terrorism”) could not be reached for comment.
— DRJ
Was Robertson Jeremiah Wright’s disciple, or was Jeremiah Wright his disciple?
Michael Ejercito (b0a575) — 1/14/2010 @ 3:51 pmFor Robert Gibbs to call anyone other than himself utterly stupid is utterly stupid.
JD (dc4402) — 1/14/2010 @ 3:53 pmI just read “Game Change,” the new book on the 2008 election and noted in my review that Reverend Wright gets very brief mention (Ayres gets almost none at all) and Obama gets a pass on his 20 years as a member. According to the book, the Obamas never went to church.
Robertson is well past his “sell by date” as Cathy would have put it.
Mike K (2cf494) — 1/14/2010 @ 3:57 pmI don’t mean to judge but that was kind of a shortsighted pact to make with the Devil I think.
happyfeet (71f55e) — 1/14/2010 @ 4:01 pmPat Robertson is a piece of garbage.
Obama and the liberals have their pieces of garbage, but that doesn’t make Pat any less a total waste.
He’s the devil. Him or Maury Povich. What a pathetic person to stain Christianity as some kind of hateful reaction to the suffering of others.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2010 @ 4:04 pmAs the great philosopher Ron White says, ” You can’t fix stupid…”
Gazzer (e940fc) — 1/14/2010 @ 4:08 pmI have detested Pat Robertson for the entirety of my adult life; I’m disappointed to note that he continues to merit it.
aphrael (a6bb82) — 1/14/2010 @ 4:11 pmA truly vile, nasty man.
the friendly grizzly (ac49eb) — 1/14/2010 @ 4:12 pmPat and Jeremiah sitting in a tree… k i s s i n g
HeavenSent (ae267e) — 1/14/2010 @ 4:16 pmUmmm – nations which seemed to be cursed for their actions …
Amalekites ? (Old Testament – I think the spelling is correct – they managed to piss off Yahweh, at any rate)
Sodom
Gomorrah
Carib Indians ? (Cannibalism, as I recall)
National Socialist Germany ? (Nazism)
This doesn’t make Pat Robertson any less a twit for his cries of “Their actions cursed them!” …
I’ll still take Pat Robertson and *his* idiocies over The Democrats’ own Lyndon LaRouche – ANYday !
I’m actually waiting for the Cult of Global Warming folk to blame the Haiti earthquake on AGW – probably based upon the catastrophic melting of the North Polar Ice lifting so much weight off the North Pole that it caused tectonic plates near Haiti to shift … or something along those lines …
Has Almost-President Gore scheduled any speeches in the near future ?
Alasdair (e7cb73) — 1/14/2010 @ 4:20 pmWith apologies to Simon & Garfunkel:
Cuckoo, that’s you, Mister Robertson,
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 1/14/2010 @ 4:29 pmJesus loves them more than you may know.
nicely done
happyfeet (71f55e) — 1/14/2010 @ 4:35 pmNot to hijack this thread but the Jamie Perdigao and Adams & Reese information has been turned on high heat. The Perdigao information regarding Tim Coulon and Jefferson Parish has now been positively identified.
Rufus (730519) — 1/14/2010 @ 4:39 pmNative Haitians defeated French colonists in 1804 and declared independence.
Seriously? They were slaves from Africa. Haiti is the only nation to be founded by slave revolt. They did not get independence in 1804. Their struggle continued for twenty more years because they scared the pants off slave owners around the world with multiple reinvasions by their former masters and hundreds of thousands dying before it was over.
Pat Robertson is a piece of dogc**p. And so is everybody else who follows his false, malicious, evil cult. They are the ones who worship the Devil.
nk (df76d4) — 1/14/2010 @ 4:40 pmI was just emailing with a friend about this. Did anyone else hear the audio of Robertson saying this about Haiti? I heard the clip on the radio earlier today. Robertson’s words are slightly slurred and his cadence seems a bit off. I see via wikipedia that he’ll be 80 in a couple of months. I’m wondering if he isn’t starting to slip into dementia. He always had a penchant to say dumb things; maybe his TV network really needs to rethink how much airtime he gets, vanity project or not.
Wouldn’t it be great to have he and Jimmy Carter move in to a retirement center together, a la the Odd Couple meets the Golden Girls? That would be reality TV worth watching, if only for the utter inanity (which, come to think of it, is why anyone watches reality TV I guess).
JVW (48cbba) — 1/14/2010 @ 4:52 pm“… a nation’s actions could cause it to be cursed…”
Stranger things have happened.
AD - RtR/OS! (aa3284) — 1/14/2010 @ 5:25 pmI wonder what Charles Darwin would say?
Same old, same old with the greatest religion huckster since Tammy Faye and Jim laced up their sneakers. I remember good ‘ ol Pat once claiming that because of his and his congregation’s prayers, a hurricane that was menacing the Virgina coast at the time was suddenly turned back. My friends and I used to watch his “700 Club” back in the day and laugh hilariously at the used car salesman he so resolutely reminded us of.
Dmac (539341) — 1/14/2010 @ 5:29 pmWhen does derision meld into intolerance?
AD - RtR/OS! (aa3284) — 1/14/2010 @ 5:48 pmC’mon – give Robertson a break. His father was a Democratic U.S. Senator. Think of the horrors of his childhood and the things he witnessed.
Can Rev. Wright blame his nonsensical rants on having a Democratic senator for a father?
MU789 (514c52) — 1/14/2010 @ 6:16 pmPlease follow the more secular advice of Rush Limbaugh: Don’t send one penny to those Haitians. They are undeserving of our help. Let nature take its course. It’s the right thing. Rush said so. And Pat Robertson prayed away a destructive hurricane in 1981 to protect his very own Virginia Beach, so he knows whereof he speaks. Do not doubt him. He has been very important to the Republican party.
Larry Reilly (45c8f2) — 1/14/2010 @ 6:34 pmThe Christian relief community is in the forefront of getting aid to Haitians, of course. No one listens to Pat Robertson except to attempt to paint his ravings upon the broader community.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/14/2010 @ 6:37 pmDoes GWB attend Robertsons services?
SteveG (909b57) — 1/14/2010 @ 6:46 pmLarry Reilly, if you’re lying, you’re helping Pat Robertson get away with his sins.
Did Rush really tell people to not donate privately? I didn’t listen to him today, but this seems extremely unlikely, and every time I hear something atrocious attributed to him, it turns out to be a lie.
So tell me: are you a liar? IF Rush said something about the scope of government spending, and nothing about private donations, the answer is yes, but I don’t know the facts.
Anyone listen to Rush today?
SteveG, quite right: Obama is just as bad as Pat Robertson because he had his kids raised in a ‘God Damn America’ ‘9/11 is chickens come home to roost’ environment. We can hold him accountable for the ideals he preached by sending his kids to a Pat Robertson style hatefest under Jeremiah Wright.
But there’s no reason to equivocate (as you know). Pat Robertson is scum no matter how bad liberals may be. If Rush said Haitians are undeserving of help (which seems very unlikely), then Rush is scum too.
If Larry is lying about helping Haitians to score smear points, then he, of course, is as bad as Pat Robertson. Using tragedies to score points is freaking lame. I disagree with Larry about Pat’s importance to the GOP. Of course, Larry has no say in what’s important to his enemies.
Dustin F (b54cdc) — 1/14/2010 @ 7:14 pmPat Robertson never dreamed of being as big an asshole as Reilly.
Mike K (2cf494) — 1/14/2010 @ 7:22 pmPat Robertson is a doofus that is stuck in the Old Testament with a jealous God.
SteveG (909b57) — 1/14/2010 @ 7:23 pmI don’t know that Robertson is scum. An idiot who shouldn’t be paid any attention, yes…
my guess is that Robertson sends $$$ even as he warns judgement.
Scum just judges
By the way,
Robert Gibbs just condemned at least two religions as “utterly stupid”.
SteveG (909b57) — 1/14/2010 @ 7:29 pmThe Bible and the Torah both teach that nations can bring judgement upon themselves.
It might be utterly stupid to believe that applies to Haitians, but that is not for me to decide
“my guess is that Robertson sends $$$ even as he warns judgement.”
Steve, You’re probably right. He probably is sending a lot of cash. I have a hard time with any man who gets rich off religious preaching. It just feels scummy to me. Also, half a million people probably just died. No one should praise a God who would do that to people because of a centuries old deal with the devil. It’s insane, and that’s the religion Pat is preaching.
It’s very scummy, from my POV. It’s not as bad as actually flying aircraft into a building of innocent people, but it’s on that sliding scale somewhere. It’s truly evil to say ‘This is justice’. Pat worships this God. He’s saying this is the right thing to do, to kill half a million people if their grandparents did such an atrocity.
He’s not saying ‘Oh, this is terrible, how can we understand such a world where God permits such horrors! Here’s my explanation.” He’s saying “this is the God I love”.
Dustin F (b54cdc) — 1/14/2010 @ 7:45 pmI’m the same as the F-Less Dustin, just using a different computer.
Dustin F (b54cdc) — 1/14/2010 @ 7:46 pmGREAT point. I hope some brave reporter brings it up to Gibbsy tomorrow!
Patricia (b05e7f) — 1/14/2010 @ 7:58 pmHe didn’t say anything of the kind, the Huff Media Matters, ellipsed the most significant part of his comments, but we know well enough to rely on anything L.R, brings us
ian cormac (dfb136) — 1/14/2010 @ 8:02 pmAnyone listen to Rush today?
I listened to Rush today, and yesterday. Rush never said not to send donations to Haiti. Larry Reilly is lying.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (9eb641) — 1/14/2010 @ 8:07 pm“we know well enough to rely on anything L.R, brings us”
Indeed. At this point, you’d think they would stop using ellipses when quoting Rush in his latest horrible fake story. It’s counterproductive. Rush wants us to think he’s the center of the political landscape and constantly being oppressed by George Soros’s idiots. Somehow, Soros has decided to prove him right.
Larry: Shame on you. This is not the occasion to score points. You should learn from Pat’s mistake.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2010 @ 8:07 pmI’m trying to figure out a way to express my total & utter disdain for this POS without using language that would even get me banned from AoSHQ
SaintGeorgeGentile (dc531b) — 1/14/2010 @ 8:23 pmWhat ever deal Hait made, the terms have been poor over the years. Compare the people of Haiti to the people of America after Katrina. I think a higher power is ready to renegotiate their contract.
I think they’ll do fine in the future by their own hands…especially with a little help from their friends.
Randy R Cox (2295c0) — 1/14/2010 @ 8:26 pmRobertson’s history is as muddled as his theology is hateful: In 1804, Napoleon I, not Napoleon III, ruled France.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (9eb641) — 1/14/2010 @ 8:27 pmHaitians are poor because they are Haitians. The Japanese post 1945 had it worse, so too Germany. Or even Italy, France, and arguably the UK (Coventry, anyone)?
Haitians are simply incapable of ruling themselves humanely and decently, let alone effectively. Haitians cannot even reach the level of governance of say, Mali, Niger, Chad, or Mauritania, to take a number of African nations at random. This is mostly due to the re-inforcing nature of culture and the people.
There is something deeply ingrained in West African people (look at Sierra Leone, Togo, Ivory Coast, Congo, Angola, Nigeria, and the rest). At best you have anarchy and near poverty (Nigeria) with rotating coups and democratic-corrupt governments. At worst you have earnest exhortations to “please don’t eat the pygmies (and albinos too)” to the populace (Congo, Ivory Coast, Sierra Leone) for supposed “magical powers.”
I think it is entirely possible that given certain environmental and sexual selection factors in Haiti, the same people after a thousand years could become bookish, cooperative, and reluctant to engage in sexual-display violence and looting and the like. But short of a thousand years and huge changes (so that Haitians were no more Haitian than the French are Franks or the English Angles and Saxons, or the Danes are Vikings) … no.
America can and should do what it can to rescue people, give immediate short term food and water and medical aid. And then leave. Haitians hate us anyway, for being “slow” (i.e. afraid to deliver the aid to the airport and be forced to shoot looting Haitian men to deliver it to the needy) and lets not have any illusions that saving any people will not generate hatred and resentment as Haitians are forced to confront their own inadequacy and failure … to rely on Americans to rescue them instead of their own people.
Haiti is merely one more indicator (Ivory Coast, Sierra Leone, Congo) of a failed people. An earthquake that would have killed 100 in Taiwan and 75 in South Korea and 25 in Japan and no more than 200 in Chile, or 1,500 in Indonesia (itself a corrupt kleptocracy filled with Islamists and ethnic/religious violence) will kill half a million.
Because the people are failed, and the states they construct merely reflect their own people.
We should help. But not have any illusions as to our own powers to “save” most of Haiti other than a few individuals, or the failed state of Haiti’s people.
whiskey (f36a0a) — 1/14/2010 @ 8:34 pmLarry Reilly is a liar. And so is Tommy Christopher.
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 1/14/2010 @ 8:35 pmInstapundit has a link to the Daily Beast.
If you’re curious why Haiti is the way it is, read it.
I don’t really get the point of punishing people for what their grandparents did, but it’s compelling.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2010 @ 8:35 pmwhiskey, read that link, and thank God you don’t live in a place with those kinds of problems.
Generalizing it to all the people there has always been such a stupid thing to do, anywhere, anytime.
Haitians are capable of governing themselves. Iranians and Saudis are too. If they have the blessings Americans have.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2010 @ 8:37 pmRobertson’s comments are exceptionally foolish because they make it sound like the depth of the disaster — the shoddy construction, the pervasive corruption, the lack of checks and balances in the running of the public sector — is based on supernatural forces, not the politics and culture that have dominated Haiti for generations. It’s analogous to claiming that the people of Venezuela are stuck with a genius like Hugo Chavez because of an act of God.
Mark (411533) — 1/14/2010 @ 8:38 pmLarry Reilly is a liar.
Moreover, I wouldn’t be surprised if he is one of the millions of people who have been detected in studies that conclude liberals actually are less generous when it comes to donating their time and money (and even in giving blood) than conservatives.
Mark (411533) — 1/14/2010 @ 8:46 pm“It’s analogous to claiming that the people of Venezuela are stuck with a genius like Hugo Chavez because of an act of God.”
Mark – God moves in mysterious ways. Who are we to question his motives?
daleyrocks (718861) — 1/14/2010 @ 8:56 pmWell it’s a good thing we have super smart liberals to counter the crazies like Robertson and tell us the “real” reason for the earthquake in Hati.
(via Instapundit)
PACT WITH GAIA
Tim Blair – Friday, January 15, 10 (04:59 am)
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/pact_with_gaia/
or here is the audio:
VIDEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2ft5JkNWJA&feature=player_embedded
…..WoW!!!!
……….What a freaking Moron!!!
…………..Just can’t mess with that logic because everyone knows that there were no earthquakes until we started driving SUV’s and cows starting farting to much…..
Baxter Greene (af5030) — 1/14/2010 @ 9:34 pmBaxter – You beat me to it. I was just getting ready to drop Glover’s comments in.
“Says Glover: “When we see what we did at the climate summit in Copenhagen, this is the response, this is what happens, you know what I’m sayin’?” His obscene opinion would be bigger news if Glover had – in the manner of others – idiotically blamed a less-fashionable deity.”
daleyrocks (718861) — 1/14/2010 @ 9:56 pmWhat would Pat Robertson say about the last presidential election? That America sinned, made a deal with the devil and deserves 0bama? This is a story that should be starved of oxygen.
LA Conservative (e9fc27) — 1/14/2010 @ 10:11 pmI also think that size matters when it comes to governing a nation. Out of 300 million we are bound to find legislators who will not totally destroy the country; Haiti is about 5 million and just doesn’t have the numbers to choose from.
Patricia (b05e7f) — 1/14/2010 @ 10:48 pmDanny Glover’s remarks weren’t much better.
h0mi (daac53) — 1/14/2010 @ 10:59 pmI did not read any of the comments here because they are likely in the same vein as nearly everywhere else: a piling on of hate toward Pat Robertson.
The Bible says Providence is unchanging, unchangeable: the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He did indeed use natural disasters to punish peoples, including His own chosen people. He did indeed use conquest to punish peoples, including His own people. He even used people who rejected Him as conquerors of His chosen people to punish His chosen people.
Since Providence is unchanging, unchangeable; since Providence is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, Providence does indeed use these same things today. He is not mocked. He does not give a wink and a nod. And He is not a doddering old codger with Whom to be trifled.
Fact: Haiti made a pact with Satan 200 years ago to throw off slavery. Fact: Satan is real and demands a high price. Fact: Providence is also real and unchanging, unchangeable.
So Pat Robertson has a point, however impolitic it may be.
It sure was mean of your dad to beat your butt after he caught you stealing your mom’s ten-spot.
John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 1/14/2010 @ 11:16 pmHaiti made a pact with Satan 200 years ago to throw off slavery.
and the evidence for this is?
aphrael (9e8ccd) — 1/14/2010 @ 11:20 pmand the evidence for this is
John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 1/14/2010 @ 11:28 pmin the history books.
A bit of history
(This is the right thread.)
John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 1/14/2010 @ 11:43 pmFact: Haiti made a pact with Satan 200 years ago to throw off slavery.
Fact: If anyone really did that, they have already met God. And you don’t really know they did that. France blockaded Haiti, crippling them and starving them. It offered to stop the blockade if and only if Haiti paid for the slaves and property FRance lost in Haiti. With usurious interest rates. It cost far more than Haiti could sustain, but they paid it, becoming, by far, the poorest nation in the area. God didn’t do that. Men did, as usual. It didn’t become this way over the course of time… it was ruined from birth, deliberately and in a conventional manner.
Haiti obviously wasn’t cool with French culture. They changed their name to an indigenous name. French propaganda was that these slaves had made a pact with the devil. France went far out of its way to ensure this Haiti would never prosper, even sending people to reenslave them. People have sought evidence of this pact with the devil, and all they find is the report from the French who were sent to reenslave these poor freed slaves. In other words, people who have no morality made this claim. Many crazies claim there is a pig statue in Haiti that proves the deal was made, but this statue doesn’t actually exist.
John calls it a fact. He is wrong. He also is very confused about morality. A God that would destroy so many innocent lives to continue to wage war against their grandparents would be evil. Christianity is about forgiveness. But these people were born centuries after the sin.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2010 @ 11:47 pm“In 1801, Toussaint Louverture led the slaves in a revolt against the French colonists. After a bloody three-year war, Haiti became the first black republic in the world. The slaves declared their independence on January 1, 1804, sacrificed a pig, and dedicated the country to Satan. From its inception, the nation has been consecrated to worshipping evil and its maker. From the time of its freedom, Haiti has been in chains.”
This never happened. There’s no evidence of this whatsoever. It is disgusting and I am ashamed of even dignifying John Hitchcock with a response.
“as far as the east is from the west,
so far does he remove our transgressions from us.
—Psalm 103:12”
The slaves fighting for their freedom were righteous fighting the unrighteous slavemasters from France. Those slavemasters used religion as a propaganda tool.
Luke 24:46-47
He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Note that there were nations that were not Christian when Luke was written. The Bible clearly applies to nations regardless of this.
Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Not just people whose great grandparents didn’t make a deal with the devil (Which didn’t even occur).
Who do you trust? The bible? Or French slavemasters returning from a defeat in battle and explaining all these details of a pig-devil-deal they did not actually witness.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2010 @ 11:59 pmTeam work….
…….what I am waiting to see is if the liberal Glover gets the same amount of press and condemnation as Robertson has gotten.
……..I am going to go out on a limb and guess…
Baxter Greene (af5030) — 1/15/2010 @ 12:04 am……..Chrip…Chrip….Chrip…of the crickets from our MSM on this.
cursed devils
Seems that every now and again Pat can spew shit with the best of the Dems!
This is one of those times.
Oh and I’m sure he does own the pulpit either.
TC (0b9ca4) — 1/15/2010 @ 12:12 amand the evidence for this is
in the history books.
odd. i don’t recall encountering it in history books. but then again, the carribean isn’t my specialty.
do you have any primary source attestation of this? any witnesses who claim to have seen it? any statements by people who say they were there and participated in it? or even secondhand contemporary reports of it?
it sounds to me like a myth spread by opponents of the Haitian government.
aphrael (9e8ccd) — 1/15/2010 @ 12:20 amBaxter Greene – a big part of the condemnation of Robertson has been for the fact that his statement basically comes across as saying the Haitians deserved it.
Glover’s statement, while stupid as all get out, doesn’t have quite that blaming-the-victim offensiveness.
aphrael (9e8ccd) — 1/15/2010 @ 12:21 amaphrael: I think I mentioned this before, but that is the name of my favourite Eddings goddess.
The problem is this: *IF*, objectively speaking, it is a historical fact that the Haitians did make a deal with the devil, then presumably there is a price to pay for that deal, and maybe that price came due today.
1. Christians have no Biblical reason to reject the supposition that spiritual powers and principalities cannot manifest themselves in the world. Quite the opposite, really.
2. Haitians aren’t helping much with their support of voodoo, which to many evangelical and orthodox Christians alike looks very much like idolatry, and not that far off from witchcraft and devil worship.
3. There is plenty of evidence in the OT and the NT that the “mills of God grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly small”, and that vengeance belongs to God. Genocide is also God’s prerogative, of course, and not ours.
As you and numerous others have mentioned, this is a plenty big IF. And Pat Robertson cannot know this for a fact, unless he’s got evidence he ain’t sharing. Hence, he’s talking a whole lot of nonsense.
Now, I do not believe that this calamity was self-inflicted, insofar as the earthquake was not something unexpected and supernatural. But the culture and the ingrained corruption and apathy of the Haitians, that is self-inflicted. And a clear warning to Americans that if the lefties have their way, this might happen to the USA next.
And he’s 80, which means he’s a cranky old man asking the kids to get off his lawn. Which idiot let him speak up like that? Even if he was right, that’s hardly the time or the place to speak of it. And he’s most likely wrong, anyhow. Which leads one to believe that he should have STFU.
Gregory (f7735e) — 1/15/2010 @ 1:06 amAll these jackleg fundamentalists and evangelicals are the same. Ignorant, and where their ignorance begins they make stuff up.
nk (df76d4) — 1/15/2010 @ 2:27 amPeople are supposed to consider what they as individuals might have done in order to “earn” a punishment and what they can do to improve. This can be as trivial as reaching in your pocket for a quarter and pulling out a nickel or as serious as the most horrible thing you can think of. When something happens to other people, a person is supposed to realize that he himself needs to introspect and do teshuvah. As far as the other people are concerned, when G-d “releases” destruction on an area (for whatever reason), even the righteous among the people of that area are subject to the harm.
It may even be that a number of people have reached their “end date” or that the general wickedness in the world has reached a “trigger point” so that a catastrophe is now due in the world. It does not mean that the individuals harmed are wicked, just that they are not due to be saved by a miracle.
In any case, we are required to act as if it all happened “naturally”.
Why did G-d create atheism?
So that when a poor person comes to us, we should not say, “G-d will help”, but dig down and do our best to help because “it is up to us”.
Sabba Hillel (153338) — 1/15/2010 @ 5:31 amHaiti today is a product of Haiti yesterday. This is a fact. In order to understand their torment, we must understand the path they have chosen. Multiculturalism did not put bread on their tables. They need to abandon the pathologies that are deeply embedded in their culture.
But they did not choose this earthquake. And even the bad choices they have made should cause us to view them with compassion, not contempt. If you go back a thousand years, our culture looked remarkably similar to theirs.
This could be the chance they have to turn things around. To start fresh. But they will need a lot of thoughtful help from outside, help designed to foster responsible self government.
Amphipolis (b120ce) — 1/15/2010 @ 5:42 amActor Danny Glover believes that the Haitian earthquake was caused by climate change and global warming
That makes just as much sense as Pat Robertson blaming the earthquake on an alleged pact with the devil.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (9eb641) — 1/15/2010 @ 5:48 amThe biggest problem with Robertson’s comment (other than its overwhelming arrogance and absurd presumption) is its finality. Haiti is cursed. There is no hope. Perhaps Robertson should put down his Bible and listen to Pink Floyd’s Hey You. Note – I say this as a brother.
His statement is based on his frustration, not his compassion. It is not just wrong. It is harmful and betrays a lack of character on the part of the one who made it. But I suppose this is obvious. It is to me.
Amphipolis (b120ce) — 1/15/2010 @ 6:07 amHey you, out there in the cold
Getting lonely, getting old
Can you feel me?
Hey you, standing in the aisles
With itchy feet and fading smiles
Can you feel me?
Hey you, dont help them to bury the light
Don’t give in without a fight.
Hey you, out there on your own
Sitting naked by the phone
Would you touch me?
Hey you, with you ear against the wall
Waiting for someone to call out
Would you touch me?
Hey you, would you help me to carry the stone?
Open your heart, I’m coming home.
But it was only fantasy.
The wall was too high,
As you can see.
No matter how he tried,
He could not break free.
And the worms ate into his brain.
Hey you, standing in the road
Amphipolis (b120ce) — 1/15/2010 @ 6:09 amalways doing what you’re told,
Can you help me?
Hey you, out there beyond the wall,
Breaking bottles in the hall,
Can you help me?
Hey you, don’t tell me there’s no hope at all
Together we stand, divided we fall.
Mmm, the jeremiah wright comment reinforces a point I have always noted. I have long pointed out the deep hypocrisy of the democrats on religion. They claim for instance that our politicians should not be allowed to claim that they are guided by God. But then they revere the Reverend Martin Luther King, the Reverend Jessie Jackson, and to a much lesser extent, the Reverend Al Sharpton. And they rarely talk about faith, except when in a black church. And of course they call Pat Robertson an idiot for saying that 9-11 was divine retribution for homosexuality, or something, but say nothing about Wright having a similar approach. And of course democrats decried Bush for being too religious, but Obama has mentioned Jesus Christ more often than Bush. Notice a pattern?
Its not merely political, because democrats have no use for most religion. John Kerry for instance thinks that he can believe as a matter of faith that abortion is murder, and yet simultaneously believe he has to put that view aside.
No, its not merely a case where democrats are allowed to have faith and republicans, only a certain kind of democrat: the black kind. It is clear as a bell that in the democratic mind, only black people are allowed to be religious.
A.W. (e7d72e) — 1/15/2010 @ 6:26 amActually he said ,after that, that maybe some good can come of this. Frankly it was a thoughtless statement, but how many times are we going to have to straighten out their affairs, 1915, 1994, 2004, and likely now. The oligarch aren’t running the place anymore
ian cormac (dfb136) — 1/15/2010 @ 6:48 amHaiti’s culture strays far from traditional Western Culture and has a lot to do with their problems, which preceded the earthquake.
By way of example, has anyone heard about problems with the next door neighbor, the Dominican Republic, which retained a strong British culture.
Alta Bob (e8af2b) — 1/15/2010 @ 7:03 amFor those, um, misguided people who think God is an insane punisher at random intervals:
Haiti is now one of the most Christian nations on earth (96% Christian according to http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ha-haiti/rel-religion and other sources. Obviously, they have offended the one true God by going to a false religion.
As to Danny Glover, I agree with Brother Fikes that the statements are equivalently stupid, but Glover’s just ignorant. Robertson is, and remains, personally and professionally evil.
JRM (355c21) — 1/15/2010 @ 7:21 amalta
yeah, you know, i think pretty much the competance of government tends to be inversely proportional to the level of french influence (wait, is Obama french at all?).
i mean alot of people are comparing it to Katrina. Sure. and in mississippi, they were hit as hard, but recovered much more easily. that was more influenced by the anglo culture. by comparison, in Louisiana, the zenith of french culture in america, they didn’t think to build levees that could withstand more than a cat 3 hurricane. Bluntly what happened with Katrina was literally inevitable. And i put the blame at the feet of the corrupt government for that.
But we should also note that some of haiti’s woes go back to literally their rebellion in a different sense. because the slaves had the temerity to rebell, they were pariahs in much of the rest of the world. the Southerners in america particularly vilified them, and indeed the theory of race war which animates alot of racism finds its origins in the haitian rebellion, although in an unfair fashion of course.
And this ties into Robertson’s fairy tale. I would bet you that this is a legend that truly exists, that he wasn’t just making something up, but he was repeating something he was told. And you can bet that it was started by american slaveholders. i mean, who knows, maybe there is some kernel of truth. maybe they prayed to their voodoo gods for salvation and this was interpreted as praying to the devil. it wouldn’t shock me if many of those slaves rejected christianity given that christinity was presented as a slave holder’s religion. American slaves would sneak off to their own services away from their masters, where their preachers would read from the parts of the bible the masters skipped, like Exodus. in order for liberation to occur, the slaves had to at least reject the master’s interpretation of christianity, and it should suprise no one that they rejected christianity entirely. So it wouldn’t surprise me if there is some kernel of highly distorted truth under all that bull, sort of the way most people figure there was really some kind of Robin Hood, but his story was so distorted and embellished that no one knows what the truth under all the BS is.
In the end even if the hatians way back then did make a pact with the devil or something, it wouldn’t justify hitting them with an earthquake today, for pretty much the same reason that i don’t hold the death of christ against any living jew. Its not that i doubt the biblical account regarding Jesus. But the way i see it is this. Yes, some people who happened to be jewish killed Jesus, but they weren’t even all of the jews who lived at the time. And the sins of the parents are not passed on to the children. indeed, in our constitution, in the treason clause, it specifically forbids punishing children for the action of their parents (that is what that language of “corruption of the blood” means). So its not jews didn’t participate in that death; its that modern jews bear no responsibility for those acts. and the same goes for the hatians.
A.W. (e7d72e) — 1/15/2010 @ 7:34 amThat is a good point but I would like to point out that stupid is stupid and should be exposed.
Robertson will get major play for yet another “God is punishing us’ statement that nobody on Earth can make with credibility because God does not consult us on his decision making.
Glover makes just as stupid a statement basically blaming the people who “dissent” from the Global warming fundamentalism that is being shown day after day to be nothing but junk science,fraud,and a play to control the masses,as partly responsible for this earthquake.
My big problem is that Glover (an activists and hollywood backer of the democrats who take in millions from them) will get a pass,little negative press or condemnation for his idiocy while Robertson who does do many good things,is being touted as another crazy Christian.
Stupid is stupid and should be exposed without bias.
Baxter Greene (af5030) — 1/15/2010 @ 8:32 amRobertson has never seen a disaster he didn’t like to blame on either non-christians or gays. So this should come as no surprise whatever. It just further reinforces the left’s opinions of all evangelicals as intolerant morons.
And Glover, like just about everyone else in Hollywood, should stick to acting, because just about none of them know jack-sh-t about anything else.
JEA (b29a48) — 1/15/2010 @ 9:13 amAlso from JRM’s source at #67
Religions > A note
roughly half of the population also practices Voodoo
Let it be said that many would find a conflict between saying a person is a Christian and practices Voodoo at the same time, like maybe 40% of the population of Haiti.
Too many directions to give any a reasonable treatment, but I’d like to briefly comment on several:
1. Nothing I am about to say is meant as a condemnation or defense of Robertson. i’m commenting on issues raised.
2. As far as the story goes, I first heard that maybe 20 years ago from folk who worked there for several years. So, be it true or not, Robertson was not the first to refer to it.
3. The concept of “judgement” doesn’t necessarily always mean what we think it means, especially if discussing “judgement” rather than “final judgement”.
When a student gets a “C” on their first paper of the semester, the professor is not (necessarily) being mean or vindictive. They are applying a standard of what is expected. The student can benefit from this judgement by having a new expectation of what is really required to succeed in college as opposed to the ho-hum high school they just left. At some point in time that student needed to realize that if they plan to go to grad school and have a professional career, their previous understanding of things needs to be challenged and corrected.
Likewise, if a teen faces consequences for coming home drunk at age 15, that judgement on their behavior does not (necessarily) come from bitterness or hatred or self-centered anger.
So, whether one believes in Divine intervention, including judgement, in human affairs or not we should at least understand what it is that we are against. If someone states that “Haiti is under judgement for making a pact with the devil”, they are not necessarily saying that God is mad with Haitians and will destroy them all to “get back at them”. If anything, it could mean that God would be trying to point out that making pacts with the devil doesn’t get you where you want to go. Whether Robertson meant this or the more “usual” understanding of judgement I don’t know. Certainly people often display no such discrimination as to what “judgement” means. (“Final judgement”, on the other hand, no longer has the motive for discipline or correction. It is the “F” at the end of the year (of life) reserved for those who never got the idea of what they were being told before).
4. Yes, much of Haiti’s problems come from a long history of wrong-doing by evil men. Individuals that ruled by terror for their own selfish benefit, leading to a society where it seemed “an honest day’s work” wasn’t worth it, because it would just be taken from you by a street thug or a government thug.
In fact, this even contributed to much of the suffering “triggered” by the earthquake. When San Francisco was hit by a similar quake, relatively few people died, even though S.F. has skyscrapers to worry about. San Francisco was built according to wisdom and knowledge of the need to build structures with the ability to withstand an earthquake. I imagine most of Haiti was built as cheaply as possible so construction workers and others could hold on to as much money as possible.
5. The idea of God’s intervention in human affairs through the medium of human actions and natural disasters is not in conflict with the idea of His interventions in other forms. Also, the idea that an event is either Man-made or God-made, but never over-lapping, is not a Biblical concept.
Now, one can say that all of this is gibberish because there is no God, and that is a rational opinion (not that you needed me to tell you). I am just saying that rather than dumping on a straw-man charicature of what Christians believe, at least aim the analysis at a more representative target.
As far as making foolish evaluations of “what was God doing?”, we find the classic example in the book of Job (which many consider to be the oldest book in the Bible) and have immortalized in the phrase “Job’s counselors”. The message is that it is one thing to know some ideas about theology, even if they are basically true, and properly applying those principles in individual situations.
One last aside comment, to ponder as you will. Alinsky dedicated his book “Rules for Radicals”, the apparent manual for strategy and tactics for the left, to ‘Lucifer, the first rebel/radical” (or something to that effect).
MD in Philly (d4668b) — 1/15/2010 @ 10:04 amOne last aside comment, to ponder as you will. Alinsky dedicated his book “Rules for Radicals”, the apparent manual for strategy and tactics for the left, to ‘Lucifer, the first rebel/radical” (or something to that effect).
So did Milton. In the second most read book ever.
Robertson is a Devil’s tool. A false prophet leading people to Hell.
nk (df76d4) — 1/15/2010 @ 10:18 amTo expand on what I wrote earlier, these jackleg preachers have no adherence to, or respect for, the Apostolic tradition that Christ built His Church on. They read Scripture, latch on to what they like, ignore what they don’t, and make stuff up along the way.
nk (df76d4) — 1/15/2010 @ 10:22 amFor MD in Plhilly, the Gospel of Matthew 5:45 (KJV):
“for he (God) maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”
JEA (3fc310) — 1/15/2010 @ 10:28 amLife’s too short to bother with shitty people who would actually worship a God that they think set up a system where this is just desserts. Or are so gullible as to believe one of the dumbest and most racist lies I’ve ever heard. These are the people that thought God meant us to enslave blacks. Mark of Cain, don’t you know.
Like I said, life’s too short. I realize there’s no end to this element of humanity, and I don’t hate them. I hope John and Pat change heart, but I won’t hold my breath.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/15/2010 @ 10:30 amJEA (at 74) I agree with the Scripture (certainly) but I am not sure of your point. In my post above I was addressing a number of issues and ended with the bottom line of the danger of going from general principles to specific application in a given situation. The verse is similar to waht was said at #60…. As far as the other people are concerned, when G-d “releases” destruction on an area (for whatever reason), even the righteous among the people of that area are subject to the harm.…
Comment by Sabba Hillel — 1/15/2010 @ 5:31 am
The fact that God’s mercy is revealed to all, the just and the unjust in giving rain for example, and that catastrophe visits both the just and unjust (a significant theme in Habakkuk and Jeremiah, for example), does not negate the Scriptural teaching that “one reaps what one sows”.
Scripture makes it clear that the crucifixion of Jesus was an evil act done by evil men (in effect all who ever did evil), and by no means by “the Jews”) but that God turned it for good in it being the means of forgiveness and atonement. So it is entirely possible for the same event to have multiple points of significance, dependent on the specific point of reference.
I thank you for your comments, nk. I was unaware of Milton’s dedication, I will have to look at that. (I’m afraid the second most read book hasn’t been read by most US HS or college students in a long time. Brothers Karamozov is the epic tome that I can claim to have read, along with Crime and Punishment.) And I agree there is a significant problem with the common practice of emphasizing some points of Scripture at the expense of others. I’m just going to say I have never read much of Robertson himself to make an opinion. Not much to respect from the quotes that appear in the media, but pity the person whose character is judged only through headlines in the press.
MD in Philly (d4668b) — 1/15/2010 @ 11:39 am“The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven”, MD in Philly.
Robertson is demented.
nk (df76d4) — 1/15/2010 @ 12:58 pmRobertson and Glover are both using their religions to explain a natural disaster; respectively, Christianity and global warming.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (a18ddc) — 1/15/2010 @ 1:09 pmAll I’m saying is that the Haitian people cannot collectively deserve what happened to them. They also cannot collectively become a damned or inferior race of people in perpetuity.
It’s a simple and obvious concept, at least in my opinion. I don’t see why Osama Bin Laden blames some kid on an airplane or why Hitler blamed Ann Frank. Even if their overarching POV made any sense (obviously they didn’t), generalizing grievances on the entire-peoples level is a sure sign of a demented and awful mind.
A couple people are trying to be fair and don’t want to hand Pat Robertson on selective quotes, but I think he genuinely feels this away about the 9/11 victims, the Haitians, perhaps the Jews in WWII. It’s lazy, and it’s sufficient data to draw a conclusion about Pat Robertson’s heart.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/15/2010 @ 1:17 pmBoth Robertson and Glover are crazy.
Vivian Louise (eeeb3a) — 1/15/2010 @ 1:20 pmReally tone deaf statement coming from a respected christian leader.
The Emperor (2b7096) — 1/15/2010 @ 2:53 pmExodus 20:4 You shall not make unto you any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 You shall not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my Commandments. (2nd Commandment ya know)
But if they do this,
Jeremiah 18:7-10 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
One thing about this is that God does judge nations. Even ours may judged and found wanting. As Dr. Kennedy said, “If God doesn’t judge this nation soon, then He will owe Sodom and Gomorroh an apology.”
Now, I don’t know if this earthquake is a judgement of God, but to ridicule a person for a biblically backed statement is in error. IMHO, I beleive it to be the beginnings of the birthpangs, and that the whole world will soon come to judgement.
Back in 1969, the year I wrote “The Late, Great Planet Earth,” the USGS
identified a total of seven “significant earthquakes.” I had noted in
1969 that there was a slight but discernible increase in worldwide
earthquake activity since Israel’s rebirth in 1948.
Hal Lindsey,”
peedoffamerican (0a190a) — 1/15/2010 @ 3:07 pmDuring the entire decade of the 1970s, the USGS recorded a total of 44
earthquakes it classified as “significant.” The following decade, from
January 1980 to December 1989, the USGS recorded 47 significant
earthquakes. That is for the entire decade. From 1990 through the end of
1999, the USGS records 57 significant earthquakes. From 2000 thru to
Monday’s earthquake in Sichuan, China, the USGS recorded an astonishing
109 earthquakes of at least magnitude 7.0 and 13 earthquakes measuring
between 8.0 and 9.9 on the Richter Scale.
“
Ooops, Hal Lindsey attributed to quote should be above the blue link.
peedoffamerican (0a190a) — 1/15/2010 @ 3:15 pmMy heart and prayers go out to all those innocent Haitians as they recover from this devastating tragedy. I am hearing that the death toll could be up to a hundred thousand. My God! This is not the work of God. This is the work of the devil. He is a murderer. John 10:10. May God have mercy on this poor country. I am so overcome with grief…..
The Emperor (2b7096) — 1/15/2010 @ 3:30 pmto ridicule a person for a biblically backed statement is in error.
Dd you read the bibilical authority I provided, which directly notes that God forgives all nations?
You realize that Exodus was written a while before the time of salvation? Now, I understand that not everyone believes in Jesus, but that’s not really all so relevant. There’s no biblical backing or any other evidence that Haiti is satanic or made a deal with the devil.
Of course I can ridicule people saying they know, for a fact, that Haiti made a deal with the devil and are being punished for it. Such a grandiose and backwards claim is the definition of ridiculous. It’s classic racism against slaves. The french claimed it was OK to reenslave these people, and destroy their promising future (as I noted, in a way that explains their situation more rationally and with more evidence than the Pat Robertson explanation) because of their culture… which, conveniently, they obviously made up.
This isn’t unusual. The old testament has a lot of information about the right way to have slaves, and anyone who says that stuff is a good moral compass … well, they shouldn’t complain when they are ridiculed.
These people did not deserve this, and that should be obvious. 9/11 victims did not deserve it. Slaves being raped didn’t deserve it. Bad things happen even though they aren’t deserved as a result of our free will.
The French of old abused their free will, and that is the real curse.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/15/2010 @ 3:31 pmLet me add, though I don’t think I need to, that I don’t pretend I’m better than the people making these mistakes.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/15/2010 @ 3:35 pmGood point Dustin @86. Pat Robertson was certainly not speaking for God on this one. Bad things also happen to good people. What matters is how we handle it. I know the Haitians will rise out of this a stronger nation.
The Emperor (2b7096) — 1/15/2010 @ 3:45 pmYes, he forgives nations if they repent. When at least 50% are practicing voodoo (black magic and basically Satan worship), then I don’t think they have repented.
And now if I understand you correctly,”You realize that Exodus was written a while before the time of salvation? Now, I understand that not everyone believes in Jesus, but that’s not really all so relevant.”
The Ten Commandments are now irrelevant? Didn’t Jesus (God in person) say that if you love Me you will keep My commandments. He also said, “I come not to destroy the Law, but that the law be fulfilled.”
And as for your contention that not until Jesus came down. salvation didn’t exist. Salvation from before his crucifixion looked ahead unto His earthly incarnation and since then has looked back to it for salvation.
And to so lightly dismiss the entire Old Testament out of hand is in error.
peedoffamerican (0a190a) — 1/15/2010 @ 3:55 pmIt’s a Hell of a God who punishes the slaves and not the slavers.
nk (df76d4) — 1/15/2010 @ 3:59 pmI guess you would also dismiss this prophecy of Jesus by David, who was an ancestor of Jesus, but who was also created by Jesus.
Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
peedoffamerican (0a190a) — 1/15/2010 @ 4:03 pm2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
91.I guess you would also dismiss this prophecy of Jesus by David, who was an ancestor of Jesus, but who was also created by Jesus.
Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
Comment by peedoffamerican — 1/15/2010
7 He shall also bring you nice presents at Christmas.
nk (df76d4) — 1/15/2010 @ 4:19 pm#
I guess you would also dismiss this prophecy of Jesus by David, who was an ancestor of Jesus, but who was also created by Jesus.
It’s interesting that if I point out many aspects of the old testament to your flavor of Christian, I expect to hear that Jesus’s salvation changed things. I am surprised to hear you overrule Jesus, and the entire point of Christianity of salvation for all, or to quote the bible, for “all nations”, because of something in the old testament. We all know there is a fundamental contradiction between the God who floods the earth and blows up cities and the one who dies on the cross for you.
I am aware, Rev. Pissed off American, of the aspects of the bible you discuss, but I am of the view that Jesus’s death and resurrection was relevant to the discussion. You seem to be saying it isn’t, and that David overrules Jesus. Interesting.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/15/2010 @ 4:24 pm“And to so lightly dismiss the entire Old Testament out of hand is in error.
Comment by peedoffamerican”
What are you talking about? Jesus spoke to Pharisees about this kind of thing, you know. It’s not like I’m pulling this from thin air. I guess your “out of hand” language, and your conclusory “it’s an error” language make it hard to take this too seriously. As I said, life is too short to try to win an argument with someone who is actually convinced this kind of horror is justice.
OK. Explain to me on what basis you know that the Haitian slaves made a deal with the devil, or that the terms somehow affect the innocents centuries later. Seems we’ve skipped a step here. Every book that has made the claim has apologized or refused to document the claim.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/15/2010 @ 4:29 pmGod gave us Pat Robertson whether we deserved him or not.
SteveG (909b57) — 1/15/2010 @ 4:43 pmWas this thread filed under buffoons?
At times like these, I thank God I’m an atheist.
Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (a18ddc) — 1/15/2010 @ 5:04 pmFrankly, I don’t give a rat’s ass about Robertson. But all you people calling him “evil” are essentially doing what you accuse him of. Making snap moral judgements.
I really don’t have a dog in this fight. I just have experienced having comments taken out of context by a hostile press in order to give a false impression. 20 years in the Navy will do that, especially when you’re on a staff where you work with the PAO to get accurate information out to the public, and then see it deliberately distorted by individuals with an agenda.
Larry (see above) is a perfect example of this kind of scum. Lying about what Rush said to score points.
Look, I agree Robertson stepped on his crank. But then, I think Harry Reid stepped on his crank.
Harry Reid? It doesn’t matter what he says. Because he’s perfectly willing to redistribute tax dollars to the right groups. Robertson? It doesn’t matter how much aid he sends to Haiti, how many prayers or donations he calls for on the Haitian’s behalf.
He screwed up his phraseology. The EVIL scum.
Well, I see it differently. Harry Reid buys not only forgiveness but power and influence with tax dollars extorted from an unwilling public, the scum.
Robertson, who says things no more stupid than Reid, can’t buy forgiveness even though he’s sending millions of dollars of freely given aid to the people a bunch of lefties are convinced he hates.
That’s just bizarre.
Speaking of evil cults, do you want to know what cult is evil. The cult that sends a bomb over our country on Christmas day (we would never bomb THAT cult’s territory during Ramadan). The one that demands our help if there’s an earthquake in Pakistan or Iran, or a tsunami in Indonesia. And stupidly we send it.
But when there’s a devestating earthquake in Haiti, which is overwhelmingly Catholic? Haiti gets the finger from them because theirs isn’t the right religion. So apparently they say the Haitians brought it upon themselves by not embracing the true religion, then practice their principles and leave them to die.
But hey, don’t let stop you from hating Robertson’s cult more. It shows exactly the kind of lack of proportion I’ve come to expect from the left in this country.
Well, that’s beautiful. As long as the innocent people Glover is falsely accusing of causing the natural disaster aren’t the victims, then it’s a step up.
What logic!
So, I suppose in a rape case, it’s perfectly natural to feel disgust if the prosecutor and judge blame the victim for dressing in scanty clothing and “asking for it.”
But if the prosecutor and judge railroad an innocent third party who wasn’t even in the state at the time, and they know it, that’s “better” because it doesn’t have the “blaming-the-victim offensiveness.”
Only if you lack a moral compass, aphrael.
Steve (d06736) — 1/15/2010 @ 5:06 pm“We all know there is a fundamental contradiction between the God who floods the earth and blows up cities and the one who dies on the cross for you.”
They are the same God.
“I am aware, Rev. Pissed off American, of the aspects of the bible you discuss, but I am of the view that Jesus’s death and resurrection was relevant to the discussion. You seem to be saying it isn’t, and that David overrules Jesus. Interesting.”
No, that is not what I am saying. I pointed out that David in the Old Testament was pointing ahead in time to Jesus’ earthly incarnation and as his (David’s) salvation.
“OK. Explain to me on what basis you know that the Haitian slaves made a deal with the devil, or that the terms somehow affect the innocents centuries later. Seems we’ve skipped a step here. Every book that has made the claim has apologized or refused to document the claim.”
If you would had reading skills you would have seen this part of my comment 83. “Now, I don’t know if this earthquake is a judgement of God, but to ridicule a person for a biblically backed statement is in error. IMHO, I beleive it to be the beginnings of the birthpangs, and that the whole world will soon come to judgement.”
Furthermore, any nation where the majority practice voodoo is definitely not making a deal with God as Nineveh did when they repented after the warning by Jonah.
What I am saying, and your being so obtuse to understand is this. Just because you don’t like the fact that God may judge a nation and impose punishment on the innocents of that nation along with the evil doer, just won’t make it so.
Like I said, I don’t know if this is a judgement of God on the nation of Haiti or not, but I do not dismiss it out of hand just because the thought of a judgemental God makes me uncormfortable. Who is able to fathom the infinite mind of God?
And to further enlighten you, Christianity doesn’t begin with Jesus’ crucifixion, it begins with Him creating the universe.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
This means that He is, was, and always shall be. HE is the ONE who gave the law and commandments to Moses. Do you think he would do away with them then? They are still and always be in force. The only out is if you receive His forgiveness for the work that He did at Calvary. It does not exempt you from the consequences of sin, it does however give you grace for the redemption unto Heaven.
peedoffamerican (0a190a) — 1/15/2010 @ 5:17 pmDon’t forget that God uses judgements to get our attention so that we will return to and receive His forgiveness. That is what the entire book of Revelation is about. God’s final attempt to get the world to return to Him.
peedoffamerican (0a190a) — 1/15/2010 @ 5:28 pm90.It’s a Hell of a God who punishes the slaves and not the slavers.
Comment by nk
I think of it as “The game ain’t over ’till the fat lady sings”. The anticipation of just judgement in the hereafter is not an excuse to permit injustice in the present, but we do know that injustice in the present is not compensated for in this life (as hard as a litigation attorney may try).
I’m not sure at this point what the aim of discussion is, to render an opinion on Robertson, to discuss the concept of judgement, or what.
From Robertson’s site:
His comments were based on the widely-discussed 1791 slave rebellion led by Boukman Dutty at Bois Caiman, where the slaves allegedly made a famous pact with the devil in exchange for victory over the French. This history, combined with the horrible state of the country, has led countless scholars and religious figures over the centuries to believe the country is cursed. Dr. Robertson never stated that the earthquake was God’s wrath. If you watch the entire video segment, Dr. Robertson’s compassion for the people of Haiti is clear. He called for prayer for them. His humanitarian arm has been working to help thousands of people in Haiti over the last year, and they are currently launching a major relief and recovery effort to help the victims of this disaster. They have sent a shipment of millions of dollars worth of medications that is now in Haiti, and their disaster team leaders are expected to arrive tomorrow and begin operations to ease the suffering.
Here is a clip of Robertson making his comments:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5TE99sAbwM
Whether one thinks his mistakes are foolish or mistaken or what, I do not think you will find much in the way of “They got what was coming to them.” Rather, his tone is one of sympathy for what Haiti has suffered over the years and hoping that things will change. In fact, his statements come after an interview with the head of a major Christian relief organization that is among thjose trying to get aid in. He certainly does not suggest the Haitian slaves were wrong to want their freedom, as I’ve seen claimed on some left-leaning sites.
Perhaps the story of the pact with the devil is an urban legend with no basis in fact, if so, it is one widely heard from people who have been in Haiti for any length of time.
FWIW, my wife happened to speak with a neighbor earlier today who is from Haiti and who has many relatives there. She stated that, “Pat Robertson is right”, that whatever some book of statistics may say about the percent who are “Christian”, the majority of Haitians today, not 200 years ago, in fact put their faith in Voodoo practices than orthodox Christianity.
The story of Joseph in Genesis never endorses the evil that his brothers (or others along the way) did to him, yet at the end of the story Joseph himself says that what they had meant for evil, God meant for good in saving Egypt and Jacob’s family from famine. That said, as a friend of mine suggested, to have told Joseph it the midst of it that “It’s OK, God is doing this, everything will be allright”, would be hard to swallow.
I do not want to be seen as a defender of Robertson. On the other hand, I would hope we criticize the reality, not a caricature passed through a hostile filter.
MD in Philly (d4668b) — 1/15/2010 @ 5:34 pmMD in Philly,
There’s a speculation that there are two Gods. One who brought Creation into Being and One who now rules it. Very beautifully said in poetry, but I don’t know that I agree with Blake as to which is the Insane One.
Considering that I tend to think that We created Our God, I tend to think that We are insane.
nk (df76d4) — 1/15/2010 @ 7:25 pmP.S. There’s nothing closer to God than Man in this World that can be proven. And nothing about God that is not what is the best and worst in Man.
nk (df76d4) — 1/15/2010 @ 7:36 pmnk-
I enjoy our discussions and respect your opinion on many things, but I must admit that I am confused when in one post you say:
74.To expand on what I wrote earlier, these jackleg preachers have no adherence to, or respect for, the Apostolic tradition that Christ built His Church on. They read Scripture, latch on to what they like, ignore what they don’t, and make stuff up along the way
and then say
I tend to think that We created Our God,
On to Milton
MD in Philly (d4668b) — 1/15/2010 @ 7:48 pmGod of the people, by the people, from the people?
nk (df76d4) — 1/15/2010 @ 8:18 pmOk, ok,
I think religion is an acquired neurosis tempered by culture, tradition and thought. And the self-taught fundamentalists and evangelicals, without the restraint of culture, tradition and thought, are just plain nuts.
nk (df76d4) — 1/15/2010 @ 8:24 pmnk said:
It’s a Hell of a God who punishes the slaves and not the slavers.
I can only speak for myself and myself says your comment succinctly sums up the argument for non-belief. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is a compelling argument.
But, belief is a powerful force that extends well beyond “self-taught fundamentalists and evangelicals, without the restraint of culture, tradition and thought.”
I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but you seem to have a bone to pick with Christianity because of the words spoken by men. Again, that’s OK.
But I’m going to amend your quote in a different way to show you how a lot of Christians view faith and belief, again speaking for only myself. You can take it or leave it:
It’s a Hell of a God who would meddle in the affairs of men.
Ag80 (76c798) — 1/15/2010 @ 9:21 pm“His comments were based on the widely-discussed 1791 slave rebellion led by Boukman Dutty at Bois Caiman, where the slaves allegedly made a famous pact with the devil in exchange for victory over the French.”
Historians debate whether this even occurred. In any event, it’s a stupid comment for anyone to make publicly whether he believes it or not.
JEA (9f9fc9) — 1/16/2010 @ 5:07 amThank you, nk, for the clarification. Your view is that religion is an acquired neurosis, but if tempered by history and reflection, not too bad of a neurosis, maybe even functional at times, if one has to have a neurosis.
On one of my better days I would remember to treat all things with fair application of, “OK, what’s the real story.”
I agree that the basic concept: “if anything bad happens to you, it’s because you deserved it” is wrong, foolish, and harmful. That is as old as Job. And that is what it often sounds like Robertson and others often say.
And I agree that saying he was foolish in making the statement is a fair evaluation. But if the clip I linked to is what he said in enough of it’s entirety, I don’t think it is at all fair to imply that he was saying, “Haiti was cursed by God and got what it deserved for something their great-great grandparents did 200 years ago”. His comment would have been better understood to mean, I think, (I’m not claiming this statement to be true myself, but trying to “translate”), that “the Haitian people as a whole performed a ritual sacrifice to the devil to get what they wanted, and it wasn’t a good deal. Ever since then they have received nothing but trouble, and a large part, maybe even the majority, not only tolerate Voodoo but still actively practice it. It is a terrible tragedy that has happened and we are encouraging people to contribute to help, as we are already doing, and let’s pray that something good comes out of this for the people of Haiti”.
Now that is ridiculous to many, crazy even, even to many who are Christians who do not share the same understanding of Scripture as Robertson, but I don’t think it is the mean spirited “God d— them” of Jeremiah Wright or the cold condemnation the reports on what he said make it out to be. Was it a tone-deaf and out of touch thing to say? To be said in public, perhaps, at least in the way it was communicated. It may be true that a person is having a heart attack because they never bothered to take care of their high blood pressure, diabetes, and high cholesterol, but while the person is in pain and short of breath in the ER is not the time to say it. But if the person lives, at some point, for their own good, it needs to be communicated that their own behavior had a role in the problem, and their own behavior can change and help them prevent a repeat.
Now I imagine the phrasology may have been intended more figuratively than literally, but I believe even Lincoln refered to the Civil War as a “judgement” on the “curse of slavery”. One can certainly see the conflict and suffering of the civil war as a kind of just recompense for the toleration and practice of slavery as simply the result of men’s actions and God had nothing to do with it. Many people died or lost family members who had never had slaves and who worked to free slaves, or at least promote more humane treatment in the midst of the system that existed, both in the North and the South.
Not trying to justify what Robertson said, just trying to put it in a broader and more understanding context.
MD in Philly (d4668b) — 1/16/2010 @ 7:36 amYes, JEA, I agree. But no more stupid than Danny Glover’s comment blaming the developed world for “failing” at Copenhagen.
While I qouted his organization’s statement earlier out of a sense of fairness, which his critics who want to call him “evil” don’t share, I think his dodge about calling the Haitians “cursed” but saying the earthquake isn’t the wrath of God is ridiculous.
That said, at least he and his minions are sending their own money to help the Haitians. So while they may be stupid, I can hardly believe they’re evil. Their money and their hearts are in the right place.
If you want stupid AND evil, well then there’s the muslim world. Where are they? The friggin’ CHICOMs are sending help to Haiti.
Muslims? Their answer is “the Christians brought it on themselves by not following the prophet; let them die.” They’re too busy flogging their own citizens and whipping up nuclear weapons to give a rat’s ass about non-believers.
Unlike Robertson, who may think the Haitians sinned, the muslim world is abiding by that belief by not helping the least little bit.
But again, when the next quake hits Pakistan, see them whine.
Steve (8a779b) — 1/16/2010 @ 11:13 amThe truth is that they did make a pact with the devil.
Now the significance you put on that pact I guess has to do with whether you believe the devil is real or not.
But it is one of Haiti’s founding myths.
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/small_axe/v009/9.2laroche.html
According to Haitian national history, the revolutionary war was launched on the eve of a religious ceremony at a place in the north called Bwa Kayiman (Bois Caiman, in French). At that ceremony on August 14, 1791, an African slave named Boukman sacrificed a pig, and both Kongo and Creole spirits descended to possess the bodies of the participants, encouraging them and fortifying them for the upcoming revolutionary war. Despite deep ambivalence on the part of intellectuals, Catholics, and the moneyed classes, Vodou has always been linked with militarism and the war of independence and, through it, the pride of national sovereignty.
So, yeah if there is a devil, Haiti made a pact with it. Might explain why even though Haiti and the Dominican Republic share the same island, the Dominican Republic has been far more successful.
Steve (7e5290) — 1/17/2010 @ 12:57 pmIt’s what Haitians believe themselves:
According to Haitian national history, the revolutionary war was launched on the eve of a religious ceremony at a place in the north called Bwa Kayiman (Bois Caiman, in French). At that ceremony on August 14, 1791, an African slave named Boukman sacrificed a pig, and both Kongo and Creole spirits descended to possess the bodies of the participants, encouraging them and fortifying them for the upcoming revolutionary war. Despite deep ambivalence on the part of intellectuals, Catholics, and the moneyed classes, Vodou has always been linked with militarism and the war of independence and, through it, the pride of nattional sovereignty.
The [Haitian] Pentecostal Church demands active rejection of such Afro-Creole traditions and regards them as satanic practice. Sermons and literature about Haiti urges missions to “pull down strongholds” and aim efforts at destroying working Vodou temples in various ways. In group rituals of prayer and fasting, the Pentecostals marched through public space performing exorcisms at spots considered sacred in Vodou and recast as satanic for Pentecostals.
Grace56 (b2cdc7) — 1/20/2010 @ 9:03 am