Patterico's Pontifications

12/22/2009

ObamaCare and 2010: Whither the “bounce”

Filed under: General — Karl @ 7:55 am



[Posted by Karl]

Do top Democrats really believe passing ObamaCare is a plus for them?

White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel has been telling Democrats a win on the health issue will reverse the slide in public opinion, just as passage of another controversial proposal, the North American Free Trade Agreement, lifted President Bill Clinton in the polls…

“The reality, I think, will trump poll numbers in the dead of winter as this debate is going on,” White House senior adviser David Axelrod said Sunday on ABC’s “This Week.”…

Emanuel or Axelrod may also be the anonymous official predicting passage of ObamaCare will send Obama’s approval rating up past 60 percent and restore his supporters’ enthusiasm. Chuck Schumer seems to be in the “bounce” camp, too.

The NAFTA analogy is a poor one, for a number of reasons. NAFTA went from being largely unknown to unpopular as it moved to the front burner. But after Al Gore cleaned Ross Perot’s clock in a CNN debate (which had a then-record audience for a cable TV program), Perot was decimated in public opinion polling and calls to Congress went from heavily against to heavily favoring it. In contrast, Obama failed to move public opinion before Congress voted.

Another difference is that opposition to NAFTA was concentrated within Democratic constituencies, primarily Big Labor. Clinton was able to smooth over those differences. In contrast, the opposition to ObamaCare is not primarily in his own party.

That dynamic is in the CNN poll which is — so far — the only evidence of a possible “bounce”. It is a “bounce” only on the Left. Even in this poll, 56% oppose ObamaCare, a plurality think it will change things for the worse for most Americans, and even more think it will make things worse for “you and your immediate family.” At this point, I want to quote Digby, just for the humor:

Other polls, like this one, show a very different result, so it’s hard to know if that means anythying.

But nonetheless, I would guess that this CNN poll will be cited everywhere as validation of the village conventional wisdom that you can’t go wrong by punching a hippie.

Digby’s right. As Allahpundit noted, the disapproval curve in the poll of polls remains unbent. For that matter, The approval numbers for Obama, Congress and ObamaCare have been stagnant over the same period. Moreover, passage of major legislation has not moved presidential approval numbers in the past.

Lefty blogger Kevin Drum does not think there will be a bounce, and hopes for amnesia:

[The] Feiler Faster thesis is largely true, and healthcare will be mostly forgotten within a few months. This bill affects a relatively small number of people; the people who are affected are almost all benefitting from it; and nothing much is going to happen until 2014 anyway. The tea partiers will stay mad, but they weren’t going to vote for Democrats in 2010 regardless. Moderates and independents, I think, will end up voting on other issues.

There is actually an element of this in Schumer’s argument:

“The reason people are negative is not the substance of the bill, but the fears that the opponents have laid out. When those fears don’t materialize, and people see the good in the bill, the numbers are going to go up.”

FDL’s Jon Walker found this nonsensical, because much of ObamaCare would not phase in until 2014. But the fact that the taxes/ penalties do not really start kicking in until 2013 gives Dems some theoretical hope that Independents might cool off.

As a practical matter, however, amnesia seems unlikely. As RCP’s Jay Cost noted on Monday, the bill stinks of politics, payoffs and partisanship. When even Lefty pundits are decrying it as a bailout of Big Insurance, it feeds the larger, populist discontent with its apparently dysfunctional government. It will be hard for the Independents who started leaving Obama and the Democrats over the stimulus bill, TARP follies and the auto industry bailout to see ObamaCare as anything other than More Of The Same — and thus hard to forget.

Update: Jay Cost notes via Twitter the the GOP will spend hundreds of millions on ads reminding voters about ObamaCare.

–Karl

70 Responses to “ObamaCare and 2010: Whither the “bounce””

  1. Our local Senator just made a speech on the floor of the Senate which I love.. Here is the drill folks…anyone can oppose health care and have a right to do so.. but the tactics used by the Conservatives betray a deep sickness in the party…which is very disturbing..and it is only the latest in a series of such attacks on the fabric of democracy by what has become the Republican party.. and its a sad day for America.

    Whitehouse Decries GOP Tactics in Health Care Debate

    12/20/09

    Washington today rests under a blanket of snow, reminding us here of the Christmas spirit across the country; the spirit that brings families happily together for the holidays. Unfortunately, a different spirit has descended on the Senate. The spirit that has descended on the Senate is one described by Chief Justice John Marshall in the Burr trial: “those malignant and vindictive passions which . . . rage in the bosoms of contending parties struggling for power.”

    Two-time Pulitzer Prize winner Richard Hofstadter captured some examples in his famous essay, “The Paranoid Style in American Politics.” The malignant and vindictive passions often arise, he points out, when an aggrieved minority believes that “America has been largely taken away from them and their kind, though they are determined to try to repossess it and to prevent the final destructive act of subversion.” Does that sound familiar in this health care debate? Forty years ago he wrote that. Hofstadter continued: those aggrieved fear what he described as “the now familiar sustained conspiracy” (familiar then, forty years ago; now grown the noisome guest that will not leave), whose supposed purpose Hofstadter described, is “to undermine free capitalism, to bring the economy under the direction of the federal government, and to pave the way for socialism ….” Again, familiar words here today.

    More than fifty years ago, he wrote of the dangers of an aggrieved right wing minority, with the power to create what he called “a political climate in which the rational pursuit of our wellbeing and safety would become impossible.” The malignant and vindictive passions that have descended on the Senate are busily creating just such a political climate. Far from appealing to “the better angels of our nature,” too many colleagues are embarked on a desperate no-holds-barred mission of propaganda, falsehood, obstruction and fear.

    History cautions us of the excesses to which these malignant, vindictive passions can ultimately lead: tumbrels rolling through taunting crowds; broken glass sparkling in darkened streets; “strange fruit” dangling in Southern trees; even this great institution of government cowering before a Tailgunner waving secret lists. These malignant moments rightly earned what Lord Acton called “the undying penalty which history has the power to inflict on wrong.” But history also reminds us that in the heat of those vindictive passions, some people believed they were justified. Such is the human capacity for intoxication by those malignant and vindictive political passions Chief Justice Marshall described. I ask my colleagues to consider what judgment history will inflict on this current spirit that has descended on the Senate.

    Let’s look at what current observers are saying, as a possible early indicator of the judgment history will inflict. Recently, the editor of the Manchester Journal Inquirer editorial page wrote of the current GOP, which he called this “once great and now mostly shameful party,” that it “has gone crazy,” is “more and more dominated by the lunatic fringe,” and has “poisoned itself with hate.” He concluded, they “no longer want to govern. They want to emote.”

    A well-regarded Philadelphia columnist recently wrote of the “conservative paranoia” and “lunacy” on the Republican right. The respected Maureen Dowd in her column eulogizing her friend, William Safire, lamented the “vile and vitriol of today’s howling pack of conservative pundits.”

    A Washington Post writer with a quarter century of experience observing government, married to a Bush Administration official, noted about the House health care bill, “the appalling amount of misinformation being peddled by its opponents”; she called it a “flood of sheer factual misstatements about the health-care bill,” and noted that “[t]he falsehood-peddling began at the top . . . .” The respected head of the Mayo Clinic described recent health care antics as “scare tactics” and “mud.”

    Congress is not immune. Many of us felt President Bush was less than truthful. But we never yelled out “You lie!” at him during a Joint Session of Congress. Through panics and depressions, through world wars and civil wars, no one ever has — never. Until President Obama delivered his first address. And this September, 179 Republicans in the House voted to support their heckler comrade. Here in the Senate, this month one of our Republican colleagues regretted, “Why didn’t I say that?”

    A Nobel-prize-winning economist recently concluded thus: “The takeover of the Republican Party by the irrational right is no laughing matter. Something unprecedented is happening here – and it’s very bad for America.” History’s current verdict is not promising.

    How are these unprecedented passions manifested in the Senate? Several ways.

    First, through a campaign of obstruction and delay affecting every single aspect of the Senate’s business. We have crossed the mark of over 100 filibusters and acts of procedural obstruction in less than one year. Never since the Founding of the Republic, not even in the bitter sentiments preceding the Civil War, was such a thing ever seen in this body. It is unprecedented.

    Second, through a campaign of falsehood: about death panels, and cuts to Medicare benefits, and benefits for illegal aliens, and bureaucrats to be parachuted in between you and your doctor. Our colleagues terrify the public with this parade of imagined horrors, they whip up concern and anxiety about “socialized medicine” and careening deficits, and then tell us: the public is concerned about the bill.

    Third, we see it in bad behavior. We see it in the long hours of reading by the clerks our Republican colleagues have forced. We see it in Christmases and holidays ruined by the Republicans for our loyal and professional Senate employees. (It’s fine for me, I signed up for this job, but why ruin it for all the employees condemned by the Republicans to be here?) We see it — tragically — in gentle and distinguished members, true noblemen of the Senate, who have built reputations of honor and trustworthiness over decades being forced to break their word, and doublecross their dearest friends and colleagues. We see it in public attacks in the press by Senators against the parliamentary staff. The parliamentary staff are nonpartisan professional employees of the Senate who cannot answer back. Attacking them is worse than kicking a man when he’s down; it is kicking a man who is forbidden to hit back; it is dishonorable.

    The lowest of the low was the Republican vote against funding and supporting our troops in the field in a time of war. As a device to stall health care, they tried to stop the appropriation of funds for our soldiers. There is no excuse for that. From that there is no return. Every single Republican member was willing to vote against cloture on funding our troops, and they admitted it was a tactic to obstruct health care reform. The Secretary of Defense warned us all that a “no” vote would immediately create a “serious disruption in the worldwide activities of the Department of Defense.” And yet every one of them was willing to vote “no.” Almost all of them did vote “no.” Some stayed away, but that’s the same as “no” when you need sixty “yes” votes; voting “no” and hiding from the vote are the same result. And for those of us here on the floor to see it, it was clear: the three who voted “yes” did not cast their “yes” votes until our 60 Democratic votes to fund the troops were tallied and the result was a foregone conclusion.

    And why? Why all this discord and discourtesy; all this unprecedented, destructive action? All to break the momentum of this new young President. They are desperate to break this President. They have ardent supporters who are nearly hysterical at the very election of President Barack Obama: the “birthers,” the fanatics, the people running around in right-wing militias and Aryan support groups. It is unbearable to them that Barack Obama is our President. That is one powerful reason.

    It is not the only one. The insurance industry, one of the most powerful lobbies in politics, is another reason. The bad behavior you see on the Senate floor is the last thrashing throes of the health insurance industry as it watches its business model begin to die. You who are listening know this business model: the business model that won’t insure you, if they think you’ll get sick or if you have a preexisting condition; the business model that, if you’re insured and you do get sick, job one is to find loopholes to throw you off your insurance coverage and abandon you to face your illness alone; the business model, when they can’t find that loophole, that they’ll try to interfere with or deny you the care your doctor ordered; and the business model that, when all else fails, and they can’t avoid you or abandon you or deny you, they just stiff the doctor and the hospital and deny and delay their payments as long as they can – or perhaps tell the hospital to collect from you first, and then maybe they’ll reimburse you. Good riddance to that business model. We know it all too well. It deserves a stake through its cold and greedy heart, but some of our colleagues here are fighting to the death to keep it alive.

    But the biggest reason for these desperate acts by our colleagues is that we are gathering momentum, and we are gathering strength, and we are working toward our goal of passing this legislation, and when we do, the lying time is over. The American public will see what actually comes to pass when we pass this bill as our new law. The American people will see firsthand the difference between what is and what they were told. Facts, as we have often said, are stubborn things. It is one thing to propagandize and scare people about the unknown; it is much tougher to propagandize and scare people when they are seeing and feeling and touching something different. When it turns out there are no death panels; when there is no bureaucrat between you and your doctor; when the ways your health care changes seem like a good deal for you, and a pretty smart idea; …. When the American public sees the discrepancy between what really is and what they were told by the Republicans — there will be a reckoning.

    There will come a day of judgment about who was telling the truth. Our colleagues are behaving in this way –unprecedented, malignant and vindictive – because they are desperate to avoid that day of judgment, frantic and desperate now, and willing to do strange and unprecedented things, willing to do anything, even to throw our troops at war in the way of that day of reckoning. If they can cause this bill to fail, the truth will never stand up as a living reproach to the lies that have been told, and on through history our colleagues could claim they defeated a terrible monstrosity. But when the bill passes and this program actually comes to life, and it is friendly; when it shelters 33 million people, regular American people, in the new security of health insurance; when it growls down the most disgraceful abuses of the insurance industry; when it offers better care, electronic health records, new community health centers, new opportunities to negotiate fair and square in a public market; and when it brings down the deficit and steers Medicare toward safe harbor – Americans will know beyond any capacity of spin or propaganda to dissuade them, that they were lied to. And they will remember. There will come a day of judgment. And our Republican friends know that. And that is why they are terrified.

    VietnamEraVet (9f20cf)

  2. VEV got a pass for the holidays. How… nice.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  3. What a silly screed. Typical of your behavior, VEV, for you to cut and paste this enormous vapid screed. Its filled with the incoherent scapegoating that you seem to enjoy, VEV.

    For Democrats to decry tactics and conduct with what they’ve gotten away with, including unconstitutionally voting to pass legislation that had not even been written, is pretty comical.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  4. By the way, VEV, are you happy that your local senator so brazenly lies about the deficit effect of the legislation?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  5. Commenters elsewhere have noted a strange thing:
    Dems in Congress are acting as if they are not afraid of the next election(s).
    Either they think they’ll be re-elected in an honest election, in which case they’re delusional, or they don’t foresee another honest election.
    The cheeriest explanation is that they figure, after being defeated, to get onto the grossly expanded federal tit for life without any more elections to worry about.

    Richard Aubrey (a9ba34)

  6. They just lost a seat in the House.

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1209/30896.html

    That is not a good sign for them. Not at all.

    Amphipolis (b120ce)

  7. Wait until the folks see what dirty Harry put in the managers amendment. Harry wrote a section which would make it difficult, if not impossible to repeal a section of the bill related to the medical advisory boards (death panels). The legislation would require a super majority of 67 to reverse this ruling thus changing the rules of the Senate. If this is constitutional it will have wide reprecussions.

    Zelsdorf Ragshaft III (57cae1)

  8. I wonder if VEV has ever considered posting a farking link for once in his life, rather than his usual MO of wall ‘o texts. Who on earth still believes that this inane type of commentary actually convinces anyone of the merits of their arguments? Only nutbags, apparently. Nice job of wasting 10 seconds of my life scrolling past your bloviations, pal.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  9. Personally, I like Reid’s bill trying to bind future Congresses so that they cannot repeal the legislation. Of course, it would be different if it was a Republican bill requiring supermajorities for raising tax revenues, right?

    As for VEV, well… Wish him well, with less bile and anger on his part. He seems pretty bitter. Which is funny, since everything is supposedly going his way?

    Eric Blair (ddbceb)

  10. The awful truth about the right wing fears and smears is a look in the mirror you cant face. Your old world is changing and you cant accept that… Why do you folks hate America so much?

    VietnamEraVet (9f20cf)

  11. That’s just comical, VEV. You’ve copied and pasted a screed that is as silly as your usual writings, and as filled with falsehood. Brazen lies and you call it “awful truth”. That’s really some strong delusions you have.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  12. Heres another editorial about the damage right wing hatemeisters are creating..

    Senator Sheldon Whitehouse was absolutely right in his assessment of the critics of health care reform.

    But it’s not simply that some oppose this or any other bill. . It’s the tactics they have used in opposition which signals something far more troubling.

    From the very outset, opponents of reform have put forth the most outrageous assertions: This is Socialism, Communism, Marxism and Fascism. The bill contains Death Panels. Grandma and Grandpa, along with Down’s Syndrome babies and millions of others are about to be euthanized in a holocaust similar to that perpetrated by Adolph Hitler, orchestrated an angry black man, named “Hussein”, probably not born here, who hates America and wishes it evil. No lie is to big, no hate to great, no rumor to destructive not to eagerly spread by them in attempting to achieve their goal.

    Worse of all, these are not simply the antics of a small fringe but the methods and tactics of some of the highest and most respected leaders and opinion makers of the Republican/Conservative power structure.

    It is this campaign, far more than anything else, which bodes ill for a healthy democracy because it is only only the latest in a series of disturbing incidents which are, in reality, attacks on the democratic process by radical right wing elements who now control the Republican party.

    Witness their actions in suppressing votes in the election of 2000 ,and gay baiting in the election 2004. Their use fear and smear to secure the election of a man as President who had determinedly taken this country to war for reasons proven false and how they brazenly declare, in spite of 9/11, that he kept us safe from terrorist attacks on his watch. These same elements sanctioned the use torture, imprisonment without opportunity of trial, and disregarded the legal requirement for wiretaps all in the interest of “national security”. They have attempted to politicize the justice department and conduct politically based prosecutions, injected a polarizing brand of religion into politics and civil discourse, unfairly smeared voter registration groups, and individuals, attacked science, and continually question the patriotism of those that disagree.

    Add to this their following of divisive individuals like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and Sarah Palin and many others to whom facts are made up as needed, their effectively ending majority rule in the Senate, and their blocking of every Obama initiative for purely political reasons, and Senator Whitehouse is correct in describing a malignant vindictive minority.

    As if all this were not enough there are the constant attempts to convince large segments of the American public that their way of life, their religion and their safety are all under attack , that a special internal police force is being created and internment camps are being constructed, that children are being indoctrinated into an Obama cult and another Holocaust is nearly at hand and the stage is set for violence .

    Should these tactics prove effective we can only expect such methods of fear and smear to continue and increase in intensity and the real loss will eventually extend far beyond lack of better health care. It will be American democracy, itself.

    VietnamEraVet (9f20cf)

  13. VEV, that screed is even sillier. After that all the lies that you personally have told about George W. Bush, you copy screeds about “fear and smear”.

    That’s pretty brazen even for a bile-filled fabulist like yourself.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  14. I think Drum will be surprised at how many “moderated and independents” populate the tea party movement.

    the wolf (54094c)

  15. SPQR I think he had people like you in mind when he mentioned…

    “conservative paranoia” and “lunacy” on the Republican right… the “vile and vitriol of today’s howling pack of conservative pundits.”

    VietnamEraVet (9f20cf)

  16. 10

    They don’t have faith that America can make communism work here. No faith in America, it’s sad.

    j curtis (5126e4)

  17. SPQR

    Lies about Bush???!!! You mean he really did find WMDs in Iraq?? He really did try to avoid war like he said?? Guess I was wrong about him..

    VietnamEraVet (9f20cf)

  18. J curtis.. Communism?? Is that what you think Social Security, Medicare and Child Labor laws and a three percent tax hike on millionaires are?? God Almighty!! now I know why Sarah Palin is so popular among the radical right. It would be laughable if it werent so tragic that such bs can actually be believed…

    VietnamEraVet (9f20cf)

  19. Karl: I don’t know if there will be a bounce or not.

    But you’re asking “whither the bounce,” which I translate to mean, “where is the bounce,” before the bill passes? I thought the assumption was that the bounce would come when the president signs the bill?

    Only certain pundits are this point are assuming the bill has effetively passed. Everybody else is still waiting.

    Myron (998393)

  20. That should be “at this point are”

    Myron (998393)

  21. 18

    Why are you ashamed of your Marxist tendencies?

    j curtis (5126e4)

  22. Myron,

    1. Obviously, the quoted Dems are expecting it to pass, and talking about a bounce.

    2. There is also the CNN poll.

    3. This is also why “bounce” is is quotes in the title.

    Karl (f07e38)

  23. Social Security and Medicare are forms of Socialism. That is by definition. Societies moving from Democracy to Socialism may continue to Communism.
    VEV, you are telling half-truths and lies.
    This is a movement toward Socialism. That is true by definition, not opinion.

    Corwin (ea9428)

  24. Obama failed to move public opinion before Congress voted.
    Maybe he can spoil out Christmas by having one of those humorless and boring “unprecedented” news conferences.

    Neo (7830e6)

  25. You mean he really did find WMDs in Iraq??

    Like the 503 chemical munitions (WMDs) recovered between 2003 and 2005 alone? Uh, yes.

    Guess I was wrong about him..

    Just like you are about everything else.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  26. Vietnam Era Vet : At least you are honest about one thing. Unlike some people, you include the word “Era” in your title. However,you should spend some time learning something about basic economics,general business practices and health care issues in general. maybe some instruction in basic finance, public & private finance and how financial institutions work. Then you might be able to add something worthwile to the discussion instead of “cut & paste.”

    Longwalker (4e0dda)

  27. Okay, it is useless to engage VEV, but…

    “..Why do you folks hate America so much..”

    Do you not see the irony of your own remarks? You are all about hatred, based on your posts.

    But that’s okay. The very light hearted “teabagger” Myron is posting in your defense. You have the nicest people on your side!

    Eric Blair (ddbceb)

  28. The cheeriest explanation is that they figure, after being defeated, to get onto the grossly expanded federal tit for life without any more elections to worry about.

    Comment by Richard Aubrey

    I think this may be a real factor. Of course, Obama has to think he will get a second term but real money can be made in those political appointments. Franklin Raines and Jamie Gorelick are prominent examples of Democrat politicians who made millions from such sinecures.

    There is still doubt about the final passage of this bill but many of us are looking past to see what the consequences would be assuming it does. They are not pretty.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  29. I think Barack’s charisma is leading Congressmen to believe it will all work out in the end. That by next election things will better. They will take credit for Stimulus I and II; that the war will be looking better; and health care reform problems will not yet have surfaced. Plus, many of the stimulus package jobs aren’t slated to kick in until months leading to the elections – these will be used to highlight how great a job the Dems have been doing.

    Corwin (ea9428)

  30. #23 Corwin:

    Social Security and Medicare are forms of Socialism. That is by definition.

    There is no practical dividing line between socialism and communism.

    There is in practice, however, a dividing line between communism and Marxist totalitarian states…but with a doctrinaire Marxist like the O!ne attempting to implement “socialism,” I don’t think it even will create a speed bump.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  31. It is significant that the VEV lunatic uses Whitehouse as an exemplar of the modern Democrat Senator. Had anybody not from Rhode Island heard about him before his unhinged speech ?

    Mike K (2cf494)

  32. #5 Richard Aubrey:

    Either they think they’ll be re-elected in an honest election, in which case they’re delusional, or they don’t foresee another honest election.

    Hey, its worked pretty well for them in Maryland.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  33. My point was toward this comment from VEV:
    “From the very outset, opponents of reform have put forth the most outrageous assertions: This is Socialism…”
    That we are already implementing forms of Socialism now. The Health Care “reform” now being considered includes many more aspects that would also fall under that heading. For VEV to say otherwise is nothing by dishonest. We are on a bad path. Obama has taken over the steering of the ship; the cataracts are looming ahead.

    Corwin (ea9428)

  34. #33 Corwin:

    Obama has taken over the steering of the ship; the cataracts are looming ahead.

    Sadly, even the most “outrageous” of comments are unlikely to truly describe the path that the O!ne would chart with free hand.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  35. The “cataracts” comment is actually pretty funny, since this Administration is certainly not seeing clearly.

    Eric Blair (ddbceb)

  36. Denile is more than just a river in Egypt; where cataracts often marked boundaries. (not sure how far to take this metaphor…) The nearness of Egypt to Kenya? (yes, I have surely digressed)

    Corwin (ea9428)

  37. mmm, you know, if you throw a dead squirrel hard enough at the ground, it will bounce.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  38. Consider the simple economics:

    1. 31 million people added to the medical system

    2. Wage and price controls on providers tightened up and payments lowered.

    The only ways to prevent this from resulting in massively decreased supply of government-paid providers is to import low-cost practitioners or to force providers to supply government markets.

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  39. implicit in all this is the democratic party’s contempt for the intelligence of the general public. Yeah, you dont like obamacare. Yeah, you’re saying you’re going to vote against us next year. But guess what? You don’t know what you’re talking about. You won’t remember. You’ll be thinking about other things. You’ll be thinking about what we want you to. We’ll tell you what to think about. You’ll vote for us because you have the attention spans of teenagers and we’ll be able to easily manipulate you.
    we’ll see how the democratic thinking works out for them next year.

    Chaos (7c068a)

  40. I was talking to some of my older relatives the other day at a large family gathering.

    None of them favor Obamacare (although some younger ones do). Their main complaint: Medicare services have been declining for years and they expect this decline will accelerate. One 80-something uncle (sharp as a tack, BTW) said that several of his doctors have dropped out or severely limited their Medicare practice in the last few years due to the low payments.

    Payments are already so low that doctors are told to have no more than 11% of their practice in Medicare patients, and most expect the recommendation to fall to ZERO percent if Obamacare passes.

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  41. Since seniors pretty much all vote at every election, losing the group to the Republicans is going to prove a disaster for the Democrats. How big a disaster will turn on how far down ticket the lead coattails go.

    As for forgetting, seniors will be reminded on every doctor visit…

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  42. All the Obama administration has to do is turn on the hype afterjets, saturate the media with the Wonderfulness of His Achievements for a few months, and the people will come around.

    The polls just reflect what people have had pounded into to them most recently by the MSM.

    cassandra in MT (5a5d33)

  43. When you have an advisor to the OMB who thinks the Hippocratic oath, is just too much, well we can see where that leads, is this guy like Ayers, he was also a VEV, but for the other side.

    As for the hype, that has been running 24/7 and it still hasn’t won them support. You actually have to deliver something people will actually like, good luck on that

    bishop (474138)

  44. They have a long term strategy. They are willing to risk everything for a fait accompli. And they are right.

    What good will it do us in January 2013 when the damage is done? What glory (or popularity) is there in making the hard choices and picking up the pieces?

    No, this is the end of the line now. Merry Christmas.

    Amphipolis (b120ce)

  45. the barry o “dont think we’re not keeping score, brother” train has gone off the rails. Fox news, rush limbaugh, tea parties – every political foe real or imagined obama has attacked has gotten stronger. The democrat reagan has shown himself to be no great communicator, no great swayer of opinion when he has to do more than give speeches. A repeat of this summer next year will destroy the democratic party in congress. And the democratic party? Stay the course. This year was obama’s 2006 in iraq. Everything’s blowing up, people are getting angry and tired of the struggle, and the party in power is doubling down. George bush got the message and changed course and fixed his own mess pretty damn well with the surge (gains obama is throwing away as any close observer of iraq knows). Barack obama, sadly for him, cant rely on the us military to solve his problems. There is no surge for barry to turn to to save him.

    chaos (7c068a)

  46. One…reality bites as in increased taxes and decreased coverages should wither the bounce.

    Two…if medicos sellout it on this it becomes the Hypocritic Oath.

    political agnostic (cc9bdd)

  47. Amphipolis, I think you are right. The question is whether it will work. It reminds me a bit of Salvadore Allende in Chile. It’s hard to get a description of his career that isn’t tainted by the left, to whom he is a hero, but he was elected, then attempted to build a communist dictatorship, a bit like Zelaya in Honduras. He was busy appointing left wingers to offices and the legislature was opposed. The army took over, discrediting the whole situation for the news media, but there was some similarity to what we see ahead of us.

    The far left wing of the Democrats seems willing to risk everything to build a socialist state that they think will be impossible for Republicans, who haven’t been all that good at free market stuff lately, to reverse. They are counting on the civic illiteracy of the teachers union educated American public to miss the significance.

    Earlier this morning, I was reading a discussion of the illiteracy of the American student and recent graduate on basic civics. I can’t find it now.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  48. The National Cherry Blossom Festival is scheduled for 3/27 – 4/11 this coming Spring.
    It is, I’ve been told, one of the best times of the year – and a very beautiful time also – to visit DC.
    I wonder what Congress’ reaction would be to a couple million visitors – say the weekend before Tax Day – surrounding the Capitol,
    and slowly climbing the steps to the entrances?
    …pitchforks, torches, tar buckets and feather bags are optional…

    AD - RtR/OS! (ad16d5)

  49. What a wonderful idea #48 wrote. In France they celebrate Bastile day. Maybe future Americans will celebrate Cherry Blossom day. April 15 could be a national holiday similar to the 4th of July. Someone organized it and I will make the trip.

    Zelsdorf Ragshaft III (57cae1)

  50. I think the Dims just want to totally demoralize us while they hold us in total contempt (since they have chosen not to listen to 60 percent of the electorate)

    #48 …pitchforks, torches, tar buckets and feather bags are optional… mandatory….

    There, FIFY.

    Charlotte (dad663)

  51. sorry, the strike out didn’t take on the optional…but it should be struck out….

    Charlotte (dad663)

  52. […] That Be: Howard ‘YEEARGH!’ Dean Denounces Obamacare Bill Patterico’s Pontifications: ObamaCare and 2010: Whither the “bounce” and Holding Out for Health Care and Scheduling the Senate Vote on Health Care and Harry Reid Speaks […]

    Rep. Parker Griffith Throws Democrat Party into Yuletide Tailspin… Defection to GOP « Frugal Café Blog Zone (a66042)

  53. […] Big Government: TEA Party Patriots: Don’t Go Home, Fight! Patterico’s Pontifications: ObamaCare and 2010: Whither the “bounce” and Holding Out for Health Care Bob Parks, Big Government: Obama: A Republican Plant? Pew Research […]

    Barack Obama’s Approval Lowest Ever Today… Merry Christmas, Mr. President « Frugal Café Blog Zone (a66042)

  54. Senator Whitehouse quotes “A Nobel-prize-winning economist” without revealing that’s it’s just Paul Krugman, the knee-jerk Liberal who won the Nobel Prize for Hating Bush.

    He also mentions “the respected Maureen Dowd.” Honestly, I didn’t know there was another one.

    Official Internet Data Office (0a4bf0)

  55. Comment by Charlotte — 12/22/2009 @ 11:54 am

    Thanks, Charlotte.
    I try to be a little mild now, since PP got on me for some snarky comments he thought might be misunderstood.
    But, along with your changes, and the suggestions of ZR-III, it could be re-written as:
    “…pitchforks, torches, tar buckets and feather bags are mandatory…personally carried “farm implements” are optional…”

    AD - RtR/OS! (ad16d5)

  56. Someone should ask Lord Haw Haw (aka Moron) what he meant when he posted the term “teabaggers” on an earlier thread. Why so shy all of a sudden, Lordy?

    Dmac (a964d5)

  57. If his Mom finds out he’s using such language, he’ll be up-close-and-personal with Mr.Ivory Soap.

    AD - RtR/OS! (ad16d5)

  58. This bill affects a relatively small number of people

    I don’t know what Drum has been smoking. This bill affects everybody in America, and most of them in a negative fashion.

    Ignore for a moment the crappy healthcare for all likely to come out out of it. The fact is that it’s a budget buster which America cannot afford. When we as a country have junk bond status will Drum still be claiming that only a small number of people are affected?

    Subotai (79cbf0)

  59. the tactics used by the Conservatives betray a deep sickness in the party…

    They’re voting against the bill? That’s sick, sick stuff allright.

    Subotai (79cbf0)

  60. Since the outlays don’t start until 2014 or so, this should be repealable. Even if Barry wields a veto, he cannot make Congress appropriate money. They can zero out the entire monstrosity and there’s not much that Obama can do except veto the other spending.

    Furher, every time there’s a debt limit increase, or other must-pass bill, they can add a rider forbidding any spending to further Obamacare.

    We will see if the Republicans are as unified once they get back in power. It took them less than 4 years to put the knife in Gingrich’s back last time.

    Kevin Murphy (805c5b)

  61. Would that it were, Kevin – I have a funny feeling that Skelator (Reid) and his minions are still going to try to ram some version of his amendment though that will make it almost impossible for later congressional members to repeal. Call it another victory for the “permanent entitlement” class.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  62. Another thing to remember is that all of the initial taxes from Obamacare are just going to go into the General Fund. Obama and his gang imagine that that will reduce the appearance of the deficit running up into the 2012 election and position him well on economic grounds.

    It won’t work out that way, because very little money will come in from those tax increases and what does will be grossly outspent by Congress and the-Obama-that-can’t-say-no; but I’m betting that’s what they imagine.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  63. Hey Chuckie,

    If this bill is so good, how come you had to use my money to BUY OFF aq handful of “Senators” in your own stinking party man? This bill wreaks of corruption and payoffs. Only a fool like you thinks that you will see a bounce from this, other than a bounce out of your cushy title. Nelson and Landraeu are slime and so is your party and this bill. We are wide awake on this and your huckster sales job is a waste of time.

    MickT (8e01d5)

  64. A Nobel-prize-winning economist recently concluded thus: “The takeover of the Republican Party by the irrational right is no laughing matter.

    That’s hilarious when the symbolic and operational leader of the Democrat Party is an ultra-liberal like Obama, close friend to an ultra-leftwinger like Jeremiah “Goddamn America” Wright and buddy of an extremist like Bill Ayers.

    Mark (411533)

  65. The Dems don’t care about the short term. They have their eyes on the prize: a massive entitlement program that changes our country and expands the width and scope of government.

    GeneralMalaise (a38f27)

  66. #54–respect and Maureen Dowd–there are some words you never see combined in a single sentence.

    Rochf (ae9c58)

  67. Comment by GeneralMalaise — 12/23/2009 @ 6:53 am

    I hope they created a big set-aside for trauma-care centers, they might need them (calling: Hawkeye Pierce)!

    AD - RtR/OS! (a9bf4b)

  68. Lemme see if I’ve got this straight. One hyperventilating, incoherent leftist asshole (that would be you, VEV) posts two “cut and paste” screeds from to OTHER incoherent, hyperventilating leftist assholes (that would be Drum and Whitehouse), in which all three of them use language like this:

    They are desperate to break this President. They have ardent supporters who are nearly hysterical at the very election of President Barack Obama: the “birthers,” the fanatics, the people running around in right-wing militias and Aryan support groups. It is unbearable to them that Barack Obama is our President.

    and

    No lie is to big, no hate to great, no rumor to destructive not to eagerly spread by them in attempting to achieve their goal.

    and

    and it is only the latest in a series of such attacks on the fabric of democracy by what has become the Republican party

    ostensibly to make the point that the Right has become paranoid and uncivil in its oppostion to socialized health care????

    VEV, go look up the term “self-parody,” ’cause you, Drum and Whitehouse are MASTERS of the art.

    Man, pure comedy gold. You can’t make this shit up.

    Lamp of Diogenes (e49c24)

  69. […] Big Government: TEA Party Patriots: Don’t Go Home, Fight! Patterico’s Pontifications: ObamaCare and 2010: Whither the “bounce” and Holding Out for Health Care Bob Parks, Big Government: Obama: A Republican Plant? Sister […]

    ‘Tis the Season to Be Miserable: 43% of Americans Having Difficulty Getting into Holiday Spirit… Conservatives Happier Than Liberals « Frugal Café Blog Zone (a66042)


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