nk asked me to do it. And so it is done. (Well, it was actually done months ago. Little in-joke with SEK.)
The ceremonial announcement is made in comments here.
He’ll have to find something else to whine about now. I have faith!
Pronounced "Patter-EE-koh"
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He whines (you say), and he makes awesome points:
In the comments over at Little Miss Attila, Frey writes, of a hypothetical prejudiced southern racist (who, thank god, doesn’t have a male dog with him):
I can’t believe you argued thus, P.
It’s only true in the sense that a person who kills his neighbour thought he was justified in doing so: Which is to say it isn’t true.
Still, good call in unbanning him after he’d made such strong points against your reasoning.
The reality is you’re a strong thinker, often right, but very slow and reluctant to admit when you’re otherwise.
Nom de Voyages à L'Étranger (518ba3) — 12/12/2009 @ 1:06 amNom de Voyages à L’Étranger,
You’re missing the point I made in my post where I quoted Beldar. Of course you can’t make a racist statement if there is no racist thinking that animates your speech.
But using the word “intend” to describe what is happening (“he intended racism”) is the wrong terminology to use when describing this concept. It’s not how normal people talk. Nobody who speaks normally says they “intend” racism. It’s just a dumb way — call it the “Goldstein way” — to express it.
I’m right about this. You’re just not getting it.
Patterico (64318f) — 12/12/2009 @ 1:25 amForgetting Goldstein’s comment about your comment, it just seems to me that:
[…] I bet if you could put an X-ray to the guy’s soul he would have himself convinced he was standing in that doorway [of a school, keeping blacks out] for only the purest motives. He does not “intend” racism.
In most cases, no.
But guarding a door keeping blacks out of school is racist. You agree with me on that much.
It would be fairer to say that the person is such a twisted pricks he doesn’t care or possibly even realize that he’s being a dehumanizing fuckwit, greatly hurting other human beings in an effort to keep his daughter’s school clear of inferior ape-like, uncivilized, hormone-controlled jungle bunny’s, or whatever similar bullshit is going through his head.
But such thoughts are racist. So there is a point where you could be right. Like if a person went around at your sister’s workplace slapping women’s asses and showing his dick, he may not “intend” harrassment. He may just intend to be flirty and give the girls a good show and his wonderful attention. He may genuinely believe that.
And I THINK that’s what you’re saying.
But from a legal point of view, he intended to commit whatever specific acts he did and a reasonable person ought to have known they were illegal and inappropriate. If he’s not reasonable, he’s still responsible for his behaviour, provided he’s not criminally insane.
Ugh. You guys are being silly.
McCain was going too far in trying to argue that it isn’t racist for a person to say they aren’t comfortable with a black person to be their brother in-law (it is), and likewise you were being — if not disingenuous — then foolish when you said that what McCain wrote seems racist, but you weren’t calling him a racist. Any but the most word-parsing reader would interpret it as if that’s exactly what you were saying.
In context, you’ve backed off that some, but it certainly was the impression you left.
Nom des Voyages à L'Étranger (518ba3) — 12/12/2009 @ 1:39 amI like Little Miss Attila.
nk (df76d4) — 12/12/2009 @ 5:02 amMany good things are sure to come from this.
I HAVE FAITH!!!!!!
Away overnight unfortunately. I’ll check the fun when I get back.
daleyrocks (718861) — 12/12/2009 @ 5:30 amThough racists like Darleen Click will never admit it, the history of racism in America is police dogs and firehoses unleashed on African Americans, and much more. White Americans were openly racists against black Americans, period.
It’s why our founding fathers made the courts a check and balance to the ballot box where the majority could easily run roughshod over minorities. This check and balance protects minorities if and when the majority violates the spirit of Constitutional equality. And you boys do love the Constitution, don’t ya?
In your face,
I A T (4fd3eb) — 12/12/2009 @ 5:36 amChalie MurphyRobert Stacy McCain! Black Power!Darleen is not a racist. That fact makes everything you wrote beyond not worth reading. Don’t do that.
Stashiu3 (44da70) — 12/12/2009 @ 5:42 amMost sanctinonious comment of the year – the king of overthetoprhectoric accusing someone else of stealing his schtick
remind me again did Goldstein get fired from his paid blogging job?
EricPWJohnson (9b7688) — 12/12/2009 @ 5:43 amBan Goldstein! Ban his fruit fly swarm too! And all their Mothers!
They’re human rubble. Despicable Stinkers!
How dare they crap on America. Let them sit in their circle and pet themselves. Pederasts and Lepers!
In the gilded age of Obama I’ve no appetite for the Confederacy of Dunces.
At least give Jeff probation restrictions. Who knows what the man is capable of. He personally banned me, you know that, right? Hahaha.
[Probation restrictions… sounds like a great idea… for you. Your future comments will stay in moderation until approved. This will continue until Patterico or DRJ decide otherwise. You are not banned and I am not recommending you be banned. I’m just delaying your comments until someone looks at them because every single one you’ve made since you started coming here was to try and stir things up. –Stashiu]
I A T (4fd3eb) — 12/12/2009 @ 5:51 am#4 nk:
Me too.
EW1(SG) (edc268) — 12/12/2009 @ 5:53 amWhite Americans were openly racists against black Americans, period.
No kidding? Really? You know, IAT, some of us have read 19th and early 20th century books. And seen WC Fields movies. But could you say what you want to say in a way that does not make you look like a total [thing where what is not digested comes out from]?
nk (df76d4) — 12/12/2009 @ 6:03 amI like Steve Sailer.
John McWhorter claims Sailer is not only a racist, but a professional one.
Does that make me a racist?
(btw – if so I’m mixed race so according to Larry King I can only be half racist)
harkin (6a3460) — 12/12/2009 @ 6:34 amI A T is in moderation and his comments cannot be seen unless someone approves them. I will not be doing so as his follow-up comments have become more and more deranged. Patterico or DRJ can approve them if they choose, or they can ban him. I’m not banning him or making any recommendation whether he should be banned or not. I do recommend he seek out some help.
Stashiu3 (44da70) — 12/12/2009 @ 6:35 am#13 Stashiu3:
I’ve just rediscovered that my great-grandmother’s grandmother’s uncle was one of Napoleon’s guards at St Helena. Apparently Stephens spoke fluent Fwench, and Napoleon delighted in speaking with him and so gifted him a gold coin (with Napoleon’s likeness struck upon it). The coin and a letter from some old dingbat in my family tree attesting its tortured provenance now hang in my mother’s guest bathroom. The lock of Napoleon’s hair reputed to have come with it is long lost.
Anyway:
1 bunch of asparagus
2 small to medium zucchini
1 large scallion
1 large clove garlic
extra virgin olive oil
Sliver scallion lengthwise and sauté with crushed garlic in 1/4 c or so of olive oil. When scallion is carmelized at edges and garlic is golden, add asparagus broken into thirds or halves (just long enough to be uncomfortable on a fork) and sauté until bright green, cover and cook until al dente reducing heat as necessary to avoid burning. Add sliced zucchini and sauté until al dente.
Goes good with Greek pork dishes served with rice or lentils.
EW1(SG) (edc268) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:08 amI often wonder if the countries that Napolean conquered (albeit for a short time) would have been better off if they had adapted some of the French MO – well, at least the cooking part.
Dmac (a964d5) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:17 am14
I give up what the heck is that supposed to mean?
EricPWJohnson (9b7688) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:21 amDarleen Click linked to one of my global warming blog posts. I appreciated the gesture and said thank you on PW, but I don’t think the comment showed up.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (9eb641) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:21 amI give up what the heck is that supposed to mean?
Mighty good eatin’.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (9eb641) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:24 amI have a situation that has caused me to do some self-searching, as my daughter has dated a black fellow for well over one year now. She says the relationship is steering toward marriage. The young man is polite and likable, but doesn’t have much in the way of steady employment (at least at a living wage) and seems to lack long-term direction. He is 28 years of age and my daughter is 23. I am less than thrilled about the prospect of this marriage, but believe I would feel the same way if the young man happened to be white. Is this evidence of racism on my part?
GeneralMalaise (a38f27) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:39 am#15 Dmac:
An uncomfortably large number of British recipes from the period start out Boil the beef…
EW1(SG) (edc268) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:45 am“An uncomfortably large number of British recipes from the period start out Boil the beef…”
That reminded me of the guy who went into the fish and game dept with the tag he took off a goose that said ‘Wash Biol Surv’ and complained that (prepared that way) the waterfowl tasted horrible.
harkin (0d3eaf) — 12/12/2009 @ 8:25 amThe entire history of the British Empire can be explained by “Searching for something decent to eat”.
nk (df76d4) — 12/12/2009 @ 8:32 amI spent a month in the UK and never had any of the legengdary bad food. My understanding of that myth is the WW2 GIs who ate in British homes were merely having to eat what the civilians were rationed to during the war, thus forming the horrid food meme. You can find horrid cooking in any culture, or maybe just bad cooks. YMMV
SGT Ted (c47cc2) — 12/12/2009 @ 8:43 amI think, by applying the dog whistle principle, I have to say, “Yes!”
Either that or it’s my tinnitis.
quasimodo (168053) — 12/12/2009 @ 10:30 am#23 SGT Ted:
And in Britain, both.
In fairness, the British have improved their cuisine considerably. They grow good produce and produce good meats and cheeses. In past, its been the preparation of them that has been their downfall. But the pun about recipes beginning with ‘Boil the beef’ has its basis in fact. The importation of dishes from other cultures, particularly Asian, has given more emphasis to preparation than previous. But, still, this is the country that gave us the chip butty.
EW1(SG) (edc268) — 12/12/2009 @ 10:55 am…has its basis in historical fact.
EW1(SG) (edc268) — 12/12/2009 @ 10:56 am“Either that or it’s my tinnitis.”
Or Pavlov’s theory?
GeneralMalaise (a38f27) — 12/12/2009 @ 10:59 amIt is said of the British that they butcher their meat twice, once when they kill it and again when they cook it.
My experience over many journeys to that island is that over the past 20 years there has been an exponential increase in the quality of food available, possibly due to the opening of many varied cultural and ethnic eateries including many American style restaurants.
Now if you want some reallllly bad food – dine in Barbados.
rls (e58293) — 12/12/2009 @ 11:16 amThat’s funny, rls, my daughter just returned last week from a trip to Barbados and loved the food: fried plaintains, flying fish, cou cou, and conkies (coconut, pumpkin and sweet potatoes in a banana leaf).
Dana (e9ba20) — 12/12/2009 @ 11:25 amMy experience in the Caribbean is to stay away from “sit down” restaurants…I had the best luck at road side stands featuring roast pork, plantains, fruits, breads. Oh, and pastry shops.
EW1(SG) (edc268) — 12/12/2009 @ 11:44 amThis sounds like the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
SarahW (692fc6) — 12/12/2009 @ 12:20 pmStashiu3,
I A T is a troll that frequents our site and was banned months ago from PW for making the kinds of deranged remarks you are no doubt seeing in your moderation bin. While I will not presume to tell you how to handle his commentary, I would only caution you that he is prone to frequently changing names, e-mail addresses (often fake anyway), and proxy IP addresses to get around such attempts at blocking his input…
He knows evey trick in the troll handbook, and will use them if he wants to get his 2 cents in. He’s part of the reason Karl left PW, as at the time Jeff wouldn’t ban him completely.
Ask Karl about thor, he’ll fill you in on any pertinent details…
Regards,
Bob Reed (99fc1b) — 12/12/2009 @ 12:21 pmBob Reed
I believe Karl left because thor accused him of racism, yet Goldstein would not ban him. Which is interesting: that someone throwing s false accusation of racism at a decent man like Karl was still tolerated there, though it drove Karl away.
Maybe a month later Karl agreed to start posting here.
Goldstein likes to whitewash this history and pretend that Karl left with the goal of moving here. This allows him, as always, to minimize his own culpability and to blame others.
That is what Goldstein does best: whine and deflect blame.
His treatment of Karl is symptomatic of his poor character. And was a real low point.
Patterico (de756b) — 12/12/2009 @ 1:41 pmI stayed at Turks and Caicos one time a few years back, and the food was simply horrendous. There’s only so many ways you can prepare Jamaican Jerk Chicken, and they’ve exhausted them all.
Dmac (a964d5) — 12/12/2009 @ 1:41 pmThe British own breakfast .. the rest of the meal times, err not so much.
SPQR (26be8b) — 12/12/2009 @ 1:49 pmI thought that was thor, Bob Reed. He can’t hide his hateful soul.
Here’s the reason he was banned (screenshot).
serr8d (79d538) — 12/12/2009 @ 1:51 pmIf you are looking for perfection in a human, Patrick Frey, you better never look in a mirror. Because staring back at you is just another of the great flock what needs improving.
Oh, and RSM is not a racist, and Obama is not a good man.
serr8d (79d538) — 12/12/2009 @ 1:54 pmThe British own breakfast .. the rest of the meal times, err not so much.
Actually, Europeans in general own breakfast. Why hasn’t the idea of salami and prosciutto sandwiches at 8:00 a.m. gained more traction in America? I’m not even much of a breakfast eater, but when in Europe I never miss that meal.
JVW (0fe413) — 12/12/2009 @ 2:07 pmThat merited a ban, serr8d.
So did calling Karl a racist.
Patterico (de756b) — 12/12/2009 @ 2:08 pmBoiled lamb or young goat, with just a sprig of oregano and salt, making a clear broth, and a squeeze of lemon when served, with fresh-baked crusty bread and a buttery not too salty cheese, is not a bad meal. It’s actually a community event in some parts of the Balkans with neighbors pitching in to do the butchering and baking. Seasonal too — in late fall or early spring.
nk (df76d4) — 12/12/2009 @ 2:08 pmActually, Europeans in general own breakfast.
I’d disagree. France and Italy adhere to the ‘continental breakfast’ which is largely coffee and starches. It was said that after Pope John Paul II was elevated, he was dismayed at the first typical Italian breakfast. It was reported that two Nuns from Poland were brought in to cook, particularly breakfast.
Blue Hen (19dbec) — 12/12/2009 @ 2:50 pmWell, I argued that thor needed banning on account of Karl. But that call wasn’t mine to make. Karl left, wordless; he hasn’t come back around to pw. He’s cut off all ties. That’s strange behavior on his part IMHO; he had some really fantastic works published there (my favorite, on the significance of BHO’s longstanding involvement with Black Liberation Theology, is one of the best posts I’ve ever read, anywhere).
I’m glad to see some progress being made, however jerky it is, in righting this ship that needs righting. You and Jeff are both good men, and both of you need to find a way to reconcile.
serr8d (79d538) — 12/12/2009 @ 4:11 pmI got a lot off my chest last night. Liberating, really.
But I don’t think either of us will ever be prepared to call each other good men. I appreciate the thought though, serr8d.
Btw, I don’t find Karl’s behavior strange at all. Unlike McCain, Karl never wrote anything that men of good will like JD could interpret as racist. Allowing Thor to call him racist drove him off and that makes sense to me.
Patterico (cd2284) — 12/12/2009 @ 6:42 pmStash:
I haven’t seen this person’a comments, but from your description I say ban and delete.
Patterico (cd2284) — 12/12/2009 @ 6:44 pmRe your comment 33, Patterico, and 44, I don’t agree.
I’ve read both sites for years. You seem to be more apt to ban than PW.
Is that a good thing? Personal choice. But I think you’re reading way too much into it.
Is Karl more comfortable posting here? It seems so. And if he would allow himself to be “driven off” by someone calling him a racist, and not being banned for doing so, then maybe he should be more comfortable here.
I don’t mean that as a slight. I mean this is a more suitable environment for him.
Karl’s writing is great, by the way.
Nom des Voyages à L'Étranger (518ba3) — 12/12/2009 @ 6:53 pmCase in point, you say Jeff G. lied to and about you repeatedly, and got in an unacceptable fight with nk to boot, and you banned him.
Fair enough.
You’ve accused Jeff G. of same and he hasn’t banned you that I know of, and I’ve seen you argue with him on his site in the intervening period.
Fair enough. That’s his choice to not ban you, and your choice to engage him about what you think are his further distortions.
But it shows that, while both sites use banning, you use it more frequently. So just because Jeff G. didn’t ban someone, I don’t think that means he approved of that person, or necessarily likes them more than Karl.
Nom des Voyages à L'Étranger (518ba3) — 12/12/2009 @ 6:59 pmIt does seem like the circular firing squad, seems to operate here better. Now what Robert said, thirteen years ago!!! was probably ill advised to be very charitable, but why follow the same rabbithole as Charles Johnson and Andrew Sullivan
bishop (1fa513) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:05 pmIt does seem to me now, though, that some people are trying to create the same brouhaha over Stacy McCain that happened over Rush Limabaugh in March and I don’t think it’s for McCain’s sake.
nk (df76d4) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:22 pmI don’t think either site does a lot of banning, so who does it more is questionable. I believe timb is banned at PW, but not here. That’s not evidence that PW bans more. The commenter I put in moderation turns out to be thor, who I believe is also banned at PW. One of the comments that hasn’t been published repeats the accusations of racism against both Darleen and Karl, and is signed “thor”. I’m guessing the initials “I A T” probably stand for “I Am Thor”, but it’s really not important. His entire goal is to disrupt and fan the flames between conservatives. Him being banned here was just as necessary as it was at PW, not a reflection on the banning policy at either site. That’s my take anyway, ymmv.
Stashiu3 (44da70) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:30 pmSo just because Jeff G. didn’t ban someone, I don’t think that means he approved of that person, or necessarily likes them more than Karl.
One of the main problems, though, is that Jeff didn’t police his blog very well in regards to thor. It’s pretty clear from reading the posts during that period that the climate was poisoned pretty badly. Jeff claimed, I believe, that he’d tried banning thor in the past and thor kept using the proxies and such to get around them, but there’s ways to deal with trolls like that. Patterico and his staff monitor comments and restrict ones by people who are deliberately trying to make a nuisance of themselves. Ace and his staff modify the comments of their trolls to say grotesque and ridiculous things. Others have a captcha and moderate everyone’s entries. Jeff probably didn’t want to restrict the relatively free-wheeling commenting section that his blog was known for, but in this case just letting things go ended up being detrimental to the climate of his blog.
It seems like Jeff goes through periods where real life intrudes and he doesn’t watch out for his creation and what is going on there. He certainly deserves to have a life outside of the internet, but if it’s that difficult to administer his creation, then he probably ought to consider whether continuing to maintain it is a good thing, or whether it’s time to turn that responsibility over to someone else, especially when the blog is infested by individuals who are simply out to act like a jackass.
For all the disagreements that they have with the commenters here, I don’t think Patterico’s regulars would consider Myron, imdw, or Leviticus (for example) to be actual trolls and understand that they are fundamentally decent people. That’s not the same with actual trolls such as thor and others like him, and a blogger is responsible for making sure those individuals don’t cause what they’ve nurtured all these years to turn into a place where people simply go to look for a fight.
Another Chris (470967) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:33 pmUsually, it is inconsistent moderation of comments that increases the need for banning. A consistent policy actually results in less banning.
SPQR (26be8b) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:41 pm#49 Stashiu3:
And it does. I’d much rather see you wield a heavier ban hammer, because my mouse wheel finger gets so tired scrolling over so much crap.
And I love the wailing and gnashing of teeth and all that.
OTOH, I ain’t paying the light bill, so what do I know? 😉
EW1(SG) (edc268) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:43 pmthor is getting a bad rap just cause of he’s so ungodly mean I think…. he’s a smart guy and he can write extraordinarily well and he can adduce the darnedest things sometimes and when he’s not being a big meanie head he’s neat to have around I think. If thor would use his thor powers for good I think he’d quickly become a valued commenter person.
happyfeet (71f55e) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:48 pmLeviticus isn’t even close to being a troll although he gets passionate (okay, foul-mouthed… and I’m pretty sure he would agree with that characterization) at times. He’s honest and I look forward to his conversion to conservative philosophy as he grows ever wiser. 😉
I wouldn’t call Myron or imdw trolls, but both engage in trollish behavior at times. Hmm… can’t put my finger on it but that reasoning sounds familiar. If they don’t intend to be trollish, are they trolls?
Stashiu3 (44da70) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:51 pm#53 happyfeet:
Kind of like if President The O!ne would stop using his dirty socialist powers for Marxist revolution and use them for good instead, he would quickly become a valued President man?
I think this falls into the category of “Frog, meet Scorpion.”
EW1(SG) (edc268) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:52 pmThat’s why I don’t make banning decisions or even recommend banning. DRJ and I would be the only ones left. I admit I was thinking about sneaking Patterico’s IP into the ban filter for April Fool’s Day. 😉
Stashiu3 (44da70) — 12/12/2009 @ 7:59 pmyou never know … thor might could change… hyperinflation in particular can be a startling inducement to a change of worldview I think
happyfeet (71f55e) — 12/12/2009 @ 8:01 pmhappyfeet,
If treating him like he is ungodly mean is a bad rap just because he’s ungodly mean, what would a good rap be? I agree he could be a “valued commenter person” if he chose to be. He consistently chooses not to. What would you suggest?
Stashiu3 (44da70) — 12/12/2009 @ 8:04 pm#56 Stashiu3:
Saw a post titled ‘If We Don’t Stop Global Warming Immediately, Everyone Dies!’ on another blog.
So, in both cases, what’s the problem with that?
EW1(SG) (edc268) — 12/12/2009 @ 8:07 pm#57 happyfeet:
Please don’t suggest that to Stash…that’s a little far to go to reform a troll.
EW1(SG) (edc268) — 12/12/2009 @ 8:10 pmum… I got nothing… but he’s just ungodly mean now… and I’ve no doubt he thinks it’s of a purpose. I’ve known thor to be magnanimous and kind and insightful and funny and I bet we see that thor again someday.
happyfeet (71f55e) — 12/12/2009 @ 8:10 pm#19
Yes.
“Lacks long term direction” is code for “shiftless”
Burn in hell
SteveG (ece883) — 12/12/2009 @ 8:11 pmI say if Martin and Lewis have no desire to get back together, then Martin and Lewis don’t have to get back together.
Alan Kellogg (3a14d2) — 12/12/2009 @ 11:04 pm“Yes.
‘Lacks long term direction” is code for “shiftless”’
Burn in hell”
OTOH, it might also mean there’s concern that my daughter is consigning herself to a lifelong economic struggle that could take much of the joy out of her life.
GeneralMalaise (a38f27) — 12/13/2009 @ 6:08 amconsider Myron, imdw, or Leviticus (for example) to be actual trolls and understand that they are fundamentally decent people.
Agree completely regarding Leviticus and could not disagree more regarding the other two. One has a habit of calling others who disagree with him liars, while the other continually engages in passive – aggressive behavior in the notorious form of “just asking question.” Not positive or honest contributors, and definitely not any kind of “fundamentally decent people.” I use the same yardstick for all commenters: if you met them in person in a public place or a party, would you actually engage them in conversation as exemplified on this blog? I think not, and I also strongly suspect that these two would never behave in that manner if they had to face the people they post comments towards. So in summation – both are verifiable Trolls.
Dmac (a964d5) — 12/13/2009 @ 10:03 amI don’t know the other two. Leviticus is a cool bloke in how he behaves. I disagree with him often.
Nom des Voyages à L'Étranger (5f1187) — 12/13/2009 @ 10:08 am