Patterico's Pontifications

12/4/2009

Is Palin a Birther?

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 6:52 am

Hot Air has the evidence. In her first statement she said the public is “rightfully” making it an issue and that it is “fair game”:

Would you make the birth certificate an issue if you ran?

I think the public, rightfully, is still making it an issue. I don’t have a problem with that. I don’t know if I would have to bother to make it an issue ’cause I think there are enough members of the electorate who still want answers.

Do you think it’s a fair question to be looking at?

I think it’s a fair question, just like I think past associations and past voting record — all of that is fair game. You know, I’ve got to tell you, too: I think our campaign, the McCain/Palin campaign didn’t do a good enough job in that area. We didn’t call out Obama and some of his associates on their records and what their beliefs were and perhaps what their future plans were. And I don’t think that that was fair to voters to not have done our jobs as candidates and as a campaign to bring to light a lot of the things that now we’re seeing made manifest in the administration.

I mean, truly, if your past is fair game and your kids are fair game, certainly Obama’s past should be. I mean, we want to treat men and women equally, right?

Hey, you know, that’s a great point, in that weird conspiracy-theory freaky thing that people talk about that Trig isn’t my real son. And a lot of people say, “Well you need to produce his birth certificate! You need to prove that he’s your kid!” Which we have done. But yeah, so maybe we could reverse that and use the same [unintelligible]-type thinking on them.

And now comes the inevitable Facebook clarification:

Voters have every right to ask candidates for information if they so choose. I’ve pointed out that it was seemingly fair game during the 2008 election for many on the left to badger my doctor and lawyer for proof that Trig is in fact my child. Conspiracy-minded reporters and voters had a right to ask… which they have repeatedly. But at no point – not during the campaign, and not during recent interviews – have I asked the president to produce his birth certificate or suggested that he was not born in the United States.

She doesn’t take back her statements that the public is “rightfully” making it an issue, or that the birth certificate issue is “fair game.”

And don’t try to tell me that she is only saying “it’s fair game for Obama if Trig’s birth certificate is fair game for me.” She takes that lifeline when it’s offered, sure. But she was calling it “fair game,” and an issue “rightfully” raised, before the lifeline was even thrown.

Does this bother anyone?

P.S. And is it any different from SEK’s statement, in which he said something rather indefensible and later “clarified” it without retracting it? If Words Mean Things, does that apply to Sarah Palin as well?

252 Responses to “Is Palin a Birther?”

  1. After what’s been done and said about her and her family, I think she’s just amused to see Obama get a similar dose of medicine.

    Techie (482700)

  2. Shark, meet Jumped.

    I said when she quit her job because it was hard that she was toast. Now she’s just demonstrating how right it is that she’s toast.

    It’s disappointing. It’s time to move on. The excuses are really tiresome. Maybe she and Mike Huckabee can co-host a show.

    –JRM

    JRM (355c21)

  3. My understanding is that Obama has never
    released his long form birth certificate.

    Is that true or not?

    If he has not released the long form, why
    has he not released it?

    jack (e383ed)

  4. No, she resigned because she was being bankupted by interested parties, tied to the current administration. and they were trying to throw a spanner into the state’s works. Actually the benefit of the doubt given Obama on so many things,without any real evidence

    bishop (996c34)

  5. While I agree that she was backed into a corner into quitting (or else bankrupt the state treasury), this is really too much for most people in the populace at large. My opinion about her not running again but campaigning for those GOP candidates who welcome her still stands.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  6. Sure hope Charles Johnson doesn’t hear about this.

    Old Coot (166f79)

  7. Jack,

    FWIW, I don’t even have such a document, all I have is a notarized copy from the county where I was born.
    And when you’re talking about someone who spent their early years getting hauled around the globe by a somewhat nutty mother it would not surprise me if Obama simply lacks the original.

    It would not surprise me at all if the percent of people who can produce an original birth certificate is low. People move, houses burn down, lots of things happen. My great grandmother was born before birth certificates even came into use.

    Soronel Haetir (2b4c2b)

  8. No, she isn’t a birther.

    One doesn’t become a birther unless they themselves are pushing the issue, there’s nothing wrong with saying that birthers have a right to pursue issues that they feel strongly about.

    I don’t agree with the 9/11 truthers, but they have every right to pursue their theories. Does that make me a truther?

    steve sturm (369bc6)

  9. Was Rush a birther when he compared the harrassment he faces from the state of NY who demands he prove every moment he spends outside of NY?

    Palin is right on target. Everyone should ask Obama to produce his birth certificate until Andrew Sullivan keeps his gutter mind out of Sarah Palin’s vagina.

    Jaynie59 (18e5d1)

  10. Does this bother anyone?

    Nope.

    trentk269 (3969c4)

  11. I think it’s the ladylike version of LBJ’s(?) “We’ll let him deny it”.

    The whole story is: LBJ is campaigning in Texas for some office and suggests, as part of the campaign strategy, spreading the rumor that his opponent has sex with pigs. His staff says, “But he doesn’t”. LBJ says, “Fine, we’ll let him deny it”.

    nk (df76d4)

  12. I don’t agree with the 9/11 truthers, but they have every right to pursue their theories. Does that make me a truther?

    Are the Truthers “rightfully” raising the issue?

    Patterico (64318f)

  13. Another point left unresolved: If words and laws mean something, then why are we supposed to believe that supposedly no one has legal standing to request such documentation, so as to ensure that the basic requirements for the office are met? There is another issue here, and this transcends the furor over the current President. Do we, or anyone, have the right to see that the laws f the United States are being followed? Please note that this should not necessarily translate into publication of such documents, but perhaps the submission of them to an appropriate office or department.

    Blue Hen (19dbec)

  14. And as far as “Palinmania” among conservatives goes, Governor Palin is a very fine lady, of many exceptional qualities, but only a fool trusts any woman other than his mother. (Ducks)

    nk (df76d4)

  15. I think it remains an issue until a certified copy of Obama’s long form birth certificate is produced. He seems to have expended a lot of money and legal effort to block the production of that document–why? More “transparency” from the donk’s I suppose.

    I have no problem with Sara Palin’s position.

    Gabby (7f03bd)

  16. Soronel,

    Haven’t quite kept up on the birth certificate controversy have you?

    Fact is, the original long-form BC(not the condensed version BO posted on-line)is sitting in a vault in Hawaii as you typed! BO won’t allow its release, just as he won’t allow release of any of his academic records, health records or anything else which might reveal WHO HE REALLY IS!

    Frankly, I don’t believe he was wasn’t born in Hawaii, but the LFBC will reveal who his real father and mother are; topics on which I believe he has all-too-publicly lied. Remember his “memoir”, “Dreams of My Father” was cherished by many as the primary evidence of his “brilliance,”(particularly and peculiarly, since his academic records remain undisclosed. Yet, that book likely stands as one huge lie!

    The whole “birther” issue is merely symptomatic of the long-standing and mystifying refusal of BO to disclose just who and what he is, based upon his recorded past.

    If his academic record truly showed such “brilliance” don’t you think BO the Narcissist, would be shouting his own praises, waving his transcripts in the face of every doubter from the rooftop of the White House?

    Earl T (1715b8)

  17. as part of the campaign strategy, spreading the rumor that his opponent has sex with pigs. His staff says, “But he doesn’t”. LBJ says, “Fine, we’ll let him deny it”.

    There is, or at least should be, a difference in making an assertion and asking whether the basic requirements explicitly noted in the Constitution are met. Especially when the assertion is made without any basis of fact or evidence.

    Blue Hen (19dbec)

  18. My ambivalence about Sarah Palin grows daily.

    JD (be8dcd)

  19. Well, I’ll give my view, and then we can talk about whether I’m being intellectually honest or not.

    Re: being a “birther”- well, she is definitely not an “anti-birther”, and for some people that would be equal to being a “birther”. What she does say is that she personally would not make an issue of it, but if a segment of the public wants to know, you would think they could expect to see a basic document such as a birth certificate from someone who wants to be president. (After all, I needed one for my daughter to register her for school in PA, they wouldn’t accept a certificate of live birth, and I’m not sure even that from Obama was made available for public viewing.)

    So I would say the same thing. It is not an issue I would actively pursue, but why in the world is it not a reasonable request?

    So, if one claims it is a back track, maybe it is a little, maybe it qualifies as a clarification. At any rate, she is revisiting her own opinion on a topic, not an accustaion about someone else (like SEK, FWIW).

    Both statements are variations of:
    “No, I’m not pushing it as a major issue”.
    and, “No, I’m not going to marginalize people who want to see the birth certificate as nutcases”.

    As far as the “fair game” issue, I agree that did not come up until the above, and it can’t be used primarily as justification. But I’m not sure you can say that line of thinking hadn’t been through her neurons once or twice before, even if she didn’t vocalize it.

    As far as the “fair game” issue, part 2- maybe she doesn’t think Trig’s birth certificate should have been an issue, but in fact it became one, and if that is how the game is played, “same rules for everyone”. That is a way to call for equal treatment without the whiney sounding “they were unfair to me”, even if/though they were.

    If people are unsatisfied by that line of thinking, i think it simply reflects a desire to put Palin down and promote Obama uncritically, whether they admit it or not.

    The other thing to remember is “a good offense is the best defense” and the whole “projection” thing. If you (Dems) make an issue of their (palin’s family) birth certificates first, then no one will look at yours (Obama’s), or you can say, “you’re just doing that to take focus off of your problem, nah, nah, nah!”

    Some people (not necessarily here) have said that even if he wasn’t born in the US he was still born to a US citizen, or even if he wasn’t legally able to run for president, he was elected and no mone will undo it, so move on. I don’t understand or agree that it makes no difference. Even if he is a US citizen born overseas, why the dishonesty? And if he is not a us citizen, it seems to me a fundamental issue on whether we are a nation of laws or not.

    Not that I’m saying I think he was born out of the US, I just don’t see how people can say it would not be an issue anyway, even if true.

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  20. I have no problem with Palin’s statement. Naturally you can dissect the words to make them say more than they do – but if this is all that she’s said in support of a Birther position, then it’s not enough to convict her of it.

    I think she’s supporting the Birthers’ pestering of Obama, and saying he should get more of the same. Consider, in contrast to what Palin was put through, Obama never even had to release his academic history. About all we got to learn about him was his handful of votes in Illinois (when he wasn’t voting ‘present’) and his autobiographical hagiography. What’s so wrong about demanding documentation for a critical claim (like eligibility to be on the ballot)?

    Where the Birthers went wrong was in failing to acknowledge when their objection was (reluctantly) satisfied.

    Gesundheit (cfa313)

  21. What do you mean by “rightfully” Patterico? If you mean do they have a right, then of course they do. If you mean are their theories right, well of course not.

    JD (be8dcd)

  22. I’m not sure if the original exists in a safety deposit box or not, but even if it doesn’t, a notarized copy of the one from the county would be fine, and I imagine that is what many people do need to get. But Obama has not produced one of those, either, as I understand it.

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  23. After Andrew Sullivan’s repeated attempts to practically crawl up her birth canal in search of clues regarding Trig’s ‘true’ birth mother, I think that Sarah Palin regards this humerously as ‘Karma is a bitch, isn’t it? Welcome to my life.’

    What goes around comes around, and if the left fails see the beam stuck in their own eye, they shouldn’t take offense at the speck they think they see in the collective eyes of the right.

    Bugz (29eca2)

  24. “Fact is, the original long-form BC(not the condensed version BO posted on-line)is sitting in a vault in Hawaii as you typed! BO won’t allow its release, just as he won’t allow release of any of his academic records, health records or anything else which might reveal WHO HE RE REALLY IS!”

    Um, Earth to Earl, if there is a birth certificate sitting in a vault in Hawaii that fact alone would prove that Obama was actually, you know, born there.

    And let me just say for the record that if the GOP actually wants to win in 2012 and prevent giving Obama another 4 years to screw up this country, they need to knock this birther conspiracy bullshit right now. If the birthers thought there was anything to their claims they should have raised the issue before Obama qualified for the Primaries to keep his name off the ballot. Even if there was merit, this is nothing but closing the barn door after the cow, the chickens and everything else has left.

    Not only that, giving into this type of paranoia WILL cost voters on election day. In my opinion it the issue that lost Charles Johnson, and he may be acting like an ass lately but he alone has a core readership in the tens of thousands, all potentially lost to the GOP — and for what?

    Sean P (579fd6)

  25. What do you mean by “rightfully” Patterico? If you mean do they have a right, then of course they do. If you mean are their theories right, well of course not.

    Well put, JD. I don’t follow the specifics of their claims, but on what basis is there to deny them the right to claim that, for example (?), the CIA was behind the bombings?

    First, they came to deny the truthers their rights and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a truther… then they came to deny the birthers…

    steve sturm (369bc6)

  26. I actually happen to believe that Obama is that baby of Bristol’s that Andrew Sullivan has been searching for but I cannot prove it until I find the time machine Todd Palin took out in his fishing boat and dumped in the Arctic Ocean.

    nk (df76d4)

  27. Tempest in a teacup which the anti-Palin folks will attempt to use to discredit her.

    But who really wants to take the contrary position, i.e. “resolved that the voters have no right to raise questions deemed to be absurd or foolish”?

    Might not voters “rightfully” raise whatever questions they want to raise about a candidate?

    DaMav (6ab8ce)

  28. and another thought: those who are skeptical of global warming are thought of by the ‘consensus’ as just as loony as are birthers and truthers. good thing the skeptics just didn’t quit and accept the academy’s view that global warming is everything they claimed it is and that we need to spend trillions cooling the planet.

    and no, I’m not saying that evidence will surface showing the CIA was responsible for 9/11 or that Obama was born outside the US.

    steve sturm (369bc6)

  29. And since birthers are insisting so much about the requirements of the law: Under the law no @#$%^& birth certificate is necessary. Anecdotal evidence, including hearsay and reputation evidence, is enough and perfectly fine, and that’s been the rule forever.

    nk (df76d4)

  30. #16

    Exactly. There is an original birth certificate and Obama CLEARLY doesn’t want it released. There has to be SOME reason. I would think any intellectually curious person would be wondering about this even if they think the Kenya claim is without foundation. I agree he probably was born in Hawaii but he’s hiding SOMETHING. So some people come up with what seems to them to be the most obvious explanation, i.e. that he’s not a native-born citizen.

    As to the identity of his real parents being something he would want to hide, I’m not sure what could possibly be so problematic for him. Could his father be some Islamic terrorist or something?

    Gerald A (a66d02)

  31. Argh…thanks Sarah, now we can focus on issues that truly matter such as Obama’s birth certificate and your likelihood of running for President, rather than distractions like the Democrats’ abysmal stimulus and health care bills, soaring unemployment, and Afghanistan.

    Well played.

    Josh (494091)

  32. Also, to answer Patterico’s specific point, this does bother me and it is a voting issue for me personally.

    Next June, the GOP gets to choose between Chuck DeVore, a reliable conservative and one who struck me as very solid and reliable on economic issues, and Carly Fiorina, the quasi-RINO who almost ran Hewlett-Packard into the ground. Up until I heard DeVore spout off in defense of the birthers, I was leaning to him, now I’m leaning towards the borderline-incompetent RINO in the Primary and I WILL vote for her if DeVore doesn’t repudiate his birther nonsense.

    Now, given that a box of rocks contaminated with the flesh eating virus would make a better Senator than Barbra Boxer, I’ll still vote for DeVore in the general if he’s the nominee, birther conspiracy advocacy or not. But I’m a pretty conservative voter. How many moderates will pull the letter for Boxer just on that issue?

    Sean P (579fd6)

  33. Josh.
    You pretend she’s dropped the other issues.
    Not your best moment.

    Richard Aubrey (a9ba34)

  34. Well played?

    Gee, I thought she was just giving straight answers to questions asked. The ‘played’ part belongs to the interrogator – not Palin.

    Robert N. (ad4ee7)

  35. And since birthers are insisting so much about the requirements of the law: Under the law no @#$%^& birth certificate is necessary. Anecdotal evidence, including hearsay and reputation evidence, is enough and perfectly fine, and that’s been the rule forever.

    1. I’m not aware of any recent candidate where his birthplace was in question, until now. Meaning, I don’t that this scenario has occurred until recently.
    2.I do not mind using the standard that you assert has been in place. I am troubled when obfuscation and an unwillingness to produce such a basic document occurs. I think that such action undermines the spirit of the standard.
    3. Please note that until recently, we used to be able to ‘qualify’ to buy certain medicines using this standard. In most states, you now have to produce formal ID to obtain sudafed. That we would deride any who dares use the same standard toward the Presidency smacks of being heavyhanded.

    Blue Hen (19dbec)

  36. It doesn’t bother me. Obama has spent millions on lawyer fees to keep the originals of his birth records from public view. He wouldn’t be spending the money, taking the time, and subjecting himself to ridicule if he didn’t have something to hide, something big enough to justify the magnitude of the effort.

    It’s not a particularly onerous task to show your birth records, in fact it’s becoming somewhat routine these days. I’ve been required to do so twice in the last year. Once to register my boat, another time to get a Florida drivers license.

    I didn’t think it should have been necessary, I had my passport, my Social Security card, and my Nevada drivers license, but none of that was good enough. The DMV insisted on seeing my original birth certificate, or an embossed copy of the original birth certificate, not some derivative document, the real McCoy.

    If I’m required to produce my original birth records to prove I’m a natural born US citizen in order to I drive a motor vehicle legally in the Sunshine state, Obama can meet the Constitutional requirements of his high office without all the tap dance, dithering, and fancy lawyer double talk.

    Sarah Plain was right to raise the issue, I’m only sorry she walked it back, but I also understand why. She’s been subject to way too much abuse and I can’t really blame her for not wanting to be labeled a “birther” in addition to all the other dirty underhanded crap that’s been leveled at her.

    Patterico, I don’t see any real equivalency with SEK’s lies. In truth I do think Palin would like to go public with a demand that Obama produce his original birth certificate, but right now her plate is full and she just doesn’t want to put that particular fight front and center on her agenda. Palin can’t right all wrongs, so she has to decide when and where to use her influence and energy.

    Now is not the time or place for her to open that can of worms. But, the right time will come, likely during the months leading up to the 2012 election.

    ropelight (a59e3f)

  37. Does this bother anyone?

    Nope.

    Blacque Jacques Shellacque (76097c)

  38. 1) I don’t think any American should be shamed out of asking a presidential candidate for a birth certificate, a copy of his medical records, a copy of his tax forms, or general job and education records.
    Only one of those things has information regarding the Constitutional requirements for the job.
    I won’t jump on the bandwagon that is trying to make it preposterous to ask for such a thing. Nobody should.

    2)I am tired of the expectation that Barack Obama be defended by everybody on every side of the aisle. He defends nobody. He allies himself with nasty people, including Andrew Sullivan.
    During the election, it was about the Muslim rumors. Everybody was supposed to state clearly that they *knew* Obama was a Christian. Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman are two Democrats who were just destroyed for not being clear enough about that.
    It became shameful to ask about Reverend Wright, Bill Ayers, the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, what he did as a “community organizer”, or Obama’s background story. Those things made you racist, or a hater, or someone who yells “Kill Him” at Republican rallies.

    I won’t play that game. Barack Obama became President by having his opponents thrown off the ballot in a state wide race, and by having his opponents’ divorce records unsealed in his US Senate race.

    He is a disgusting dirty politician for whom nothing is off-limits and he can have the same rules foisted onto him.

    MayBee (f0bb2c)

  39. Two thoughts:

    1. I think that Sarah Palin was trying to underscore the unfairness and hypocrisy of the media. You can call that whining if you like, but it serves the DNC’s purposes to say so, doesn’t it? After all the craziness sent her way, I honestly feel that she deserves some leeway here. And not because I like her. I mean, look at the cover of Newsweek (a month after the magazine cover depicting the brilliance of Joe Biden). Look at Andrew Sullivan’s craziness. Look at the barrage of frivolous lawsuits. Look at how McCain’s staffers have treated her. It’s understandable, because she is human.

    2. I understand Patterico’s point as well: if we want to improve political discourse in this nation, we need to begin by explaining what we value, and what we do not, in our political interactions. And then we need to live up to those standards.

    It’s not easy in this fractious times.

    Eric Blair (bc43a4)

  40. There’s nothing wrong with people making a deal out of the LPM’s birth certificate. It’s a free enough country yet and they seem sincere. It’s better on these things that we err on the side of vigilance, so good for them, really. I think they’re mostly just trying to understand how we got such an awful and disturbing president foisted upon us.

    happyfeet (2c63dd)

  41. Re #36, and everyone who agrees with him:

    A birth certificate is registered in the jurisdiction in which the individual is born, correct? So if there IS a “long form birth certificate” (as opposed to the one he has already produced), the “fact” that Obama is supposedly spending millions of dollars to prevent its disclosure proves, BY YOUR OWN ARGUMENT, that he WAS born in the United States, because if he wasn’t THERE WOULD BE NO BIRTH CERTIFICATE RECORDS IN THE STATE OF HAWAII FOR HIM TO HIDE!!!!

    Sean P (579fd6)

  42. I’d much rather read his college papers. I feel they’d be illuminating.

    Techie (482700)

  43. “People like Alex Jones are rightfully raising questions about 9/11.”. You guys wouldn’t jump down the throat of a lefty who said that? You’d accept their excuse that they were just defending Jones’s right to ask the question?

    Really?

    Patterico (688f64)

  44. Seems to me the word “fair” is mentioned several times in the Palin quote. “Fair” is a pretty fuzzy word.

    I’d agree it’s “fair” for voters to inquire about the birth certificate, or really almost anything, given that Palin was dissected under a microscope.

    It is more pertinent than whether he’s Muslim, or some of the other things folks get upset about.

    At this point in time, it does seem a bit pointless, in that the big O is in the office. I wish he wasn’t, but I don’t think a birth cert. will change it now.

    jodetoad (059c35)

  45. I have had carry permit for pistols and revolvers in the state of Connecticut since 1989. When I renewed it at the end of September I was required to provide either 1) a notarized copy of my birth certificate or 2) a US Passport. This requirement was explained as being required to fulfill amandate of the federal government.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  46. I believe that there is nothing wrong with President Obama’s birth certificate. However, there are other documents that he needs to hide such as his school records. To allow someone to win a suit for accessto his original birth certificate would be a breach in the legal dike protecting all his documents. So, his lawyers are fighting the birth certificate suits to protect the other documents.

    Longwalker (798ff9)

  47. “People like Alex Jones are rightfully raising questions about 9/11.”. You guys wouldn’t jump down the throat of a lefty who said that? You’d accept their excuse that they were just defending Jones’s right to ask the question?

    Really?

    Why are people who ask about a presidential candidate’s birth certificate being compared to people who think our government killed 3,000 of its own citizens in a fake terrorist attack?
    What is the comparison?

    MayBee (f0bb2c)

  48. I like it when MayBee gets riled up.

    JD (241e9b)

  49. #43: Patterico you took the words right out of my mouth. Well raising conspiracies about a President’s eligibility is hardly on the same level of vileness as questioning whether our President deliberately murdered US citizens for “oil”, it is comparable in terms of its nuttiness, and may wind up turning off just as many potentially swing voters in 2012.

    Sean P (579fd6)

  50. As for Truthers- it seems to me they are highly tolerated by most of the country, including the major media.
    There certainly isn’t pressure to denounce them every time they pop up.

    MayBee (f0bb2c)

  51. The little president man and his media have more robustly exploited questions about his birth certificate than anyone on the right has I think. He likes being a victim of stuff and having people be complainy on his behalf cause it’s almost as satisfying as yelling racist at people.

    happyfeet (2c63dd)

  52. Fire cannot melt steel! Google it!

    JD (241e9b)

  53. “But at no point. . .have I asked the president to produce his birth certificate or suggested that he was not born in the United States.”

    Obama is not really the president. He is not eligible to hold that office because he is not a “natural born Citizen,” as mentioned in Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution. Of course, this is. . . unprecedented.

    Obama does not qualify to the office even if they do produce a long-form birth certificate from the vault deep below Hawaii showing he was born there. He’s not eligible because one of his parents was a foreign national. His birth certificate would be interesting, and I doubt that he’s got one, but it’s not relevant to the question.

    It’s been said many times that a person must either be born a citizen or be naturalized. But there are different ways to be born a citizen. You can qualify as a citizen from birth under 8 USC 1401, part of the statutes. You can qualify as a citizen from birth under the 14th Amendment, as in the US Supreme Court case US vs. Wong Kim Ark (1898), where a child born in the United States to two foreign nationals was deemed to be a citizen. But in that case, the high Court made a distinction between 14th Amendment citizenship and natural-born citizenship.

    I don’t think John McCain, born in the Canal Zone, was eligible either, and neither was former Senator Lowell Weicker (R-CT), briefly a presidential candidate, who was born in Paris. They are “nationals and citizens from birth” under 8 USC 1401, and maybe so is Obama, if his long-form Hawaiian birth certificate exists. But none of them is a “natural born Citizen.”

    Official Internet Data Office (c4e07b)

  54. As others have asked many times over the past year, I’d much rather see his college transcripts and resultant grades. We knew Bush and Kerry’s well in advance of that election, why did we never see Obama’s? It’s always smelled fish to me, and no from the other side of the ledger has adequately defended that omission.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  55. “fishy”

    Dmac (a964d5)

  56. Are people actually saying that the conversations that 9/11 truthers and birthers carry on, as silly as they are, should be shut down? What if Sarah was to say those theories should be shut down? Look at all the screaming about curtailing free speech that would go on then. As silly as the conspiracists are, they are entitled to make fools of themselves, just as congress is allowed to do so. Sarah is right to defend their right to make fools of themselves.

    However, as in climategate though, if you aren’t transparent and produce the data people want to use to verify, people wonder what you have to hide. I’m ok with Hawaii’s validation and the birth announcement in the local papers there make me think that other options are highly improbable. Enough so, I’m unwilling to pursue it. But you have to admit that when someone is unwilling to show something as benign as a long form birth certificate, it sends up a big red flag and arouses curiosity. People can be curious about the refusal and not be nuts. I admit to being curious about why there was a refusal.

    The reason I think the birthers are out in left field is because they are trying to invalidate an election on a technicality. I don’t believe that the constitutional requirement for natural citizenship was to address a case like this. The phrase “natural born” was not defined in the constitution and as such would have some range of values that would make sense. His mother was a natural born citizen and it shouldn’t have mattered where he was born. So even if he wasn’t born in the United States, it wouldn’t matter. My curiosity is due to his refusal to provide something that simple.

    I am willing to also admit that I don’t know all the technicalities involved, so if I’m wrong on my assumptions, maybe I’ll learn something from your comments :)

    Jeff (0204be)

  57. Why are people who ask about a presidential candidate’s birth certificate being compared to people who think our government killed 3,000 of its own citizens in a fake terrorist attack? What is the comparison?

    The only similarity is that both groups are pursuing issues that are important to them. whatever you think of the merits – or lack thereof – of those arguments, they have the right to spend as much time huddled in their mom’s basements pursuing that line. and yes, the same holds true for holocaust revisionists, grassy knollers and the ‘CIA caused AIDS’ crazies.

    You’d accept their excuse that they were just defending Jones’s right to ask the question? Really?

    Yes, really.

    steve sturm (369bc6)

  58. Birthers are teh suck.

    JD (241e9b)

  59. #48, I think you meant #42, right?

    I think there is considerable difference between questions about Obama’s birth certificate and 9/11 conspiracy folk.

    There is reportedly a birth certificate that Obama has fought being seen. Why in the world is that? (possible reasons given above).

    If you told me there was an independent structural engineering analysis that showed the planes could not have caused the towers to collapse in a safety deposit box, but the owner of the box wouldn’t let anyone see it, then I would have (at least some) reason for concern.

    One is what should be a simple request, along with college records, etc., and one is a claim in the face of loads of contrary evidence. The only similarity is how they are viewed by certain segments of the population. As someone else said, those who doubt AGW have been likened to those who deny the holocaust or still claim the earth is flat.

    There is a big difference between how a group is seen through the eyes of the media and the possible merits of the groups views/aioms.

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  60. What Jeff and steve sturm said.

    JD (241e9b)

  61. “The only similarity is that both groups are pursuing issues that are important to them. whatever you think of the merits – or lack thereof – of those arguments, they have the right to spend as much time huddled in their mom’s basements pursuing that line. and yes, the same holds true for holocaust revisionists, grassy knollers and the ‘CIA caused AIDS’ crazies.”

    OK, fine, but if you ever want to get out of Mom’s basement, you need to knock that crap off and join the real world. Birthers have a constitutional right to vocalize their fantasy world, but unless Republican voters exercise THEIR constitutional right to repudiate this nonsense (and instead choose to subtly encourage it as Palin and DeVore are doing) they will spend an awfully long time in Mom’s basement, while the Democrats run the country into the ground.

    Sean P (579fd6)

  62. Next June, the GOP gets to choose between Chuck DeVore, a reliable conservative and one who struck me as very solid and reliable on economic issues, and Carly Fiorina, the quasi-RINO who almost ran Hewlett-Packard into the ground. Up until I heard DeVore spout off in defense of the birthers, I was leaning to him, now I’m leaning towards the borderline-incompetent RINO in the Primary and I WILL vote for her if DeVore doesn’t repudiate his birther nonsense.

    How is the birther issue different from the 9/11 truther issue, or according to Sarah Palin, “that weird conspiracy-theory freaky thing that people talk about that Trig isn’t my real son”?

    Michael Ejercito (6a1582)

  63. There’s another thread going here about the meanings of words. So let’s ask what does the label ‘birther’ mean?

    Does it mean:
    a) I believe the SOB was born in Kenya and has no right to be President.
    b) I believe that if I have to show a birth certificate to get a driver’s license in my new state of residence he should have to show his to become President.
    c) I believe that in this country everybody has a right to raise issues – even those that I think are absurd.
    d) Something else

    As we write there is Fairness in Media bill pending in the Congress. Senators Feinberg, Durbin, and Specter are attempting to define the meaning of ‘Journalist’ to exclude on-line ‘news’ that is not affiliated with MSM.

    How far are we willing to go to pillory Palin and others over a label? Over a position that may actually defend meanings ‘b’ and ‘c’? How much ‘fairness’ are we willing to extend to others so that our own opinions are not banned?

    Robert N. (ad4ee7)

  64. One more thing- as neither a Palin lover nor a Palin hater, I feel I must point out that she is not, and never has been, a precise speaker. She is often downright confusing. That is one of my problems with her. So I can’t put much bank in parsing the wording of her off-the-cuff comments.

    MayBee (f0bb2c)

  65. OK, fine, but if you ever want to get out of Mom’s basement, you need to knock that crap off and join the real world. Birthers have a constitutional right to vocalize their fantasy world, but unless Republican voters exercise THEIR constitutional right to repudiate this nonsense (and instead choose to subtly encourage it as Palin and DeVore are doing) they will spend an awfully long time in Mom’s basement, while the Democrats run the country into the ground.

    And Democrats do not have crazy conspiracy theories in their ranks, right ?

    Who was it that said, “It’s not ‘spic’ or ‘nigger’ anymore. They say ‘let’s cut taxes.’”?

    Michael Ejercito (6a1582)

  66. I think Palin’s statement . . .

    “But at no point. . .have I asked the president to produce his birth certificate or suggested that he was not born in the United States”

    . . .was quite measured. She didn’t say if she thought Obama was ineligible to the office of the presidency.

    The slogan “Where’s the Birth Certificate?” is a way to dramatize the issue, and draw attention to the problem even if if the birth certificate itself is not decisive. But if there is no birth certificate, it’s immediately obvious that Obama doesn’t qualify, without having to wait years for the Supreme Court to rule on it, assuming they get an appropriate case to review on appeal.

    However, I think it’s brilliant on Palin’s part to note that some jackals in the Press were demanding her youngest son’s birth certificate.

    Official Internet Data Office (c4e07b)

  67. Ear Leader’s records are a legitimate point of questioning, in as much as he has deliberately declined to release them for inspection. we have fewer verified datum points on him then any previous president, and we *do* have a right to know about him.

    of course, his actions since taking office have reduced our need to know, since by now it’s obvious to all but the willfully blind that he is an incompetent fool, unfit even for the duties of “former president” let alone those of “president”.

    that being said, this is just the latest thin reed being grasped by the Palin haters, in a desperate attempt to discredit her. one has to ask why all these insecure people feel so threatened by a woman they claim is so stupid and ineffective. she has become the ultimate “boogieman” for the left and center left.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  68. The requirement about the status of the birth is explicitly stated in the Constitution. The assertions that: “The Jooooos had prior warning”, “The Evil government blew up its own citizens”, :Bush McHitler is hiding information”, “The Pentagon was not hit by an airplane” are just that. Assertions. If you have proof, or scientific inconsistencies, then present them.

    Indeed, a parallel may be drawn, but not one to your liking. One asserts that “The Evil Jooos had warning. The other says, “this guy is eligible to be President.

    Great. Prove both.

    Blue Hen (19dbec)

  69. The fool hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. — Simon and Garfunkel

    nk (df76d4)

  70. I don’t see the problem. Obama was born in Hawaii and I don’t have an issue about that. He has taken a lot of interest in Kenya politics, which is odd. I would like to see his college records and know a bit more about his sources of support as a college student. I think these issues are all rolled up into the “birther” thing but there are several threads, most of them quite reasonable.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  71. If anyone caught Jesse Ventura’s act on a satellite radio show a few days ago (with comedian Jim Norton beclowning him), you’d understand the nausea felt when ignorant boobs make broad insinuations and then feign innocence when challenged, all in the guise of the hallowed and inane “just asking questions” crapola. Birthers, truthers and the other conspiracists all fall into the same bottom of the barrel, IMHO:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOKHJ2el9Uw

    Check out the comments below the vid – it’s all there; the paranoia, the evillll Jooos, Booosh wanting kill his own citizens to start a war, etc. I wish all of them to crawl back under the rocks and bridges they habitually reside in.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  72. Cross – posted with Blue Hen; but the vid pretty much says it all.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  73. They had a huge debate in the senate about whether the ticket Palin was on was eligible for the presidency. Were the Democrats who brought that debate forward in the Senate kind of like 9/11 truthers? I don’t remember a lot of that kind of criticism of the Democrats for doing that at the time so I suppose Republicans are more certain of Obama’s eligibility, despite being born with dual citizenship, than they are of McCain’s citizenship.

    j curtis (5126e4)

  74. Again, I note that today, we have to positively assert eligibility to purchase sudafed, or to obtain a passport. Why is this expectation for political office not merely inappropriate, but labeled as being akin to an unsubstantiated smear or conspiracy ranting?

    Please note that I do not use the term ‘conspiracy theory’ since that suggests that logic was employed and that somewhere, somehow, a flasability test can be applied.

    Blue Hen (19dbec)

  75. Doesn’t bother me. And I’m reading her book.

    On a slightly off topic point, I’ve seen and enjoyed the movie Blind Side about a wealthy, Christian, Memphis family who took in a poor black boy from the projects. Michael Oher (the boy) is now the starting right tackle for the Baltimore Ravens. Sandra Bullock plays the real life Leigh Anne Touhy, a woman determined to do things her way.

    Reviews of the movie have spilled over into the sports pages; leading LA Times sports columnist Chris Brown to write something along the following lines: “If Leigh Anne Touhy takes over your PTA, watch out. She’s a Christian lady with a ‘tude. (in that way) she resembles Sarah Palin.”

    I don’t happen to believe that Ms. Palin is dumber than a box of rocks. She’s taken a lot of junk, and she deserves to get a few shots in of her own. Whether she winds up going any further on the national scene is up to her, the voters, and the press. We’ll see.

    Mike Myers (3c9845)

  76. If we don’t get to see Obama’s actual birth certificate, how can we tell if he’s really eligible to be the AntiChrist?

    As I’ve read this discussion, however, I have gradually begun to develop some sympathy for his decision to keep all his college work buried. I’m remembering some poetry I wrote as a freshman. (shudder) And a paper I wrote in a world history class. (ouch)

    Maybe it would be best if we just evaluate the man for who he is and what he does today…

    …in which case, I’ll bring the feathers if you’ve got the tar.

    Gesundheit (cfa313)

  77. Obama does not qualify to the office even if they do produce a long-form birth certificate from the vault deep below Hawaii showing he was born there. He’s not eligible because one of his parents was a foreign national.

    That’s just bullshit. Being born in the US makes you a natural born citizen, even if one of your parents is a foreign national. I refer you to 8 USC 1401:

    The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
    (a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

    To answer Patterico:

    Yes, she’s crossed the line into “birther”
    Yes, this bothers me
    Yes, if a prominent Democrat were to say Alex Jones is just raising legitimate questions about 9/11, it would chap my hide
    Yes, this is a deal-breaker

    Some chump (8087d5)

  78. For lots of reasons, I think we can do better than Sarah Palin. None are because she may or may not believe Obama’s birth circumstance could have rendered him ineligible to be POTUS. I have questions about that, and those questions remain unanswered.

    My president chooses not to put the matter to rest beyond any doubt. That is his right, but I always think of Marc Klaas’ reaction when his daughter first went missing. When the police questioned his possible involvement, Klaas didn’t hesitate. He asked for a polygraph (against his lawyers advice, I believe), wanting to immediately prove his innocence and move forward on the most important issue – finding his daughter.

    Would that Obama shows that type of character and integrity regarding his BC, transcripts, etc., so these issues never command another second of effort or penny of expense, and he could move forward on the most important issues facing the nation he is charged with leading.

    But this is Obama, who prefers sideshow theater and political grandstanding to effective leadership and governance.

    That Palin believes citizens have the right and the standing to demand proof of whether or not someone is eligible to become their president, is good on her, I think.

    Matador (176445)

  79. WHY are we mocked when we ask for Obama’s

    Birth Certificate?
    Thesis?
    Grades?

    Why is this man, who unlike Palin is running our country into the ground, able to ascend to the Presidency with such simple questions unanswered?

    After what Palin has been through, her questions are fine by me.

    Metallica (e4735c)

  80. I need a proper definition of “birther”: believes Obama was not born in the U.S.? believes Obama was likely born in the U.S. but may be hiding something else? believes that for whatever reason simple transparency requires that Obama release an easily available document? Otherwise it’s just name calling. Same goes for “rightfully”.

    Avisame (3a0744)

  81. Actually Morrisey doesn’t have the evidence, unlike what the post suggested. I guess she could have said, but the medical exam that she has received and continues to receive, and when they don’t find something they make it up, grates on her. As for the candidates, Fiorina will be yet another RINO obstructing any real Republican president, didn’t we have this experiment with Arnold, how did that turn out,

    bishop (996c34)

  82. Birther, deather, maybe tenther?

    imdw (c06324)

  83. Avisame, the most virulent of the Birthers are the ones that can’t coherently state what their actual position is.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  84. I really would love to have Palin sit down and have a long tea with Orly Taitz.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    imdw (f40333)

  85. look she is doing a political dance, there. She doesn’t want to attach herself too clearly to the movement, but she isn’t going to denounce them either, because she feels like she needs all the support she can get.

    That’s all this is. But its interesting, because then clearly she is running for some elected office. otherwise, she would tell us what she actually thought and in unambiguous language.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  86. because then clearly she is running for some elected office. otherwise, she would tell us what she actually thought and in unambiguous language.

    Or maybe she just doesn’t want to offend anyone who might otherwise buy her book.

    MayBee (f0bb2c)

  87. This blog usually rises above the sort of cheap baiting typical of blogs what engage in cheap baiting.

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  88. If the left can have its useful idiots, why not the right?

    nk (df76d4)

  89. The birth certificate issue ranks right up there with the story that nobody can remember Obama’s time at Columbia.

    Neo (7830e6)

  90. Does this bother anyone?

    No.

    If you lefties can put down the crack pipe long enough to let your brain cells to do whatever it is they doe to resemble functioning, during the campaign the Dems made an issue of John McCain being born in the Canal Zone. They said that because his father, Admiral McCain, was serving his country abroad when he was born, and that the candidate was therefore born abroad, that Sen. McCain wasn’t elegible to be President.

    Therefore, asking questions about Obamas pedigree isn’t out of bounds.

    At this point I merely see the issue as an insight into Obama’s truthfullness. The ironically named “most transparent” administration is history is proving to be exactly that. Just not in the manner they intended.

    The “truthers” are ignorants who believe fire can’t melt steel. Obviously, they don’t know how it’s made, and advertise they stubbornly insist on wallowing in their ignorance for eternity.

    There is no comparison between that and people who merely want to see a government document that you or I would have to produce to get a passport.

    They don’t deserve the epithet “birthers.”

    I have always viewed the whole controversy as a leading indicator of his complete lack of character. The man who refused to provide information about his citizenship is reliably proving to be the man who refuses to let his party planner testify before Congress.

    The man stonewalls about everything, even the most trivial things.

    With all due respect to Pat, as I know I’ve harped on this enough, Obama is most definitely NOT a good man. He claims to be his brother’s keeper. But his brother lives in abject poverty in a Nairobi slum. The man spends more on at an ice cream shop on his kids in one visit than his brother makes in a year.

    He claims to be open and honest. Yet he won’t produce a document that the government routinely demands from us, the underlings he views as his subjects, for mundane purposes. He claims executive privelige for his party planner, and won’t produce her, either. His AG won’t tell the US Civil Rights Commission why his administration refused to hold the Black Panthers accountable after they had already won a default judgement against them. And refuse to explain why.

    I could go on. But what’s the point. This whole issue was merely a leading indicator of the fact that Obama does not believe he is accountable to anyone. Least of all the people, who have every right to ask what they are asking. That’s the only thing you need to take away from this.

    He is a liar and a fraud.

    Steve (7d8b00)

  91. 78.I need a proper definition of “birther”

    Anyone who feels that Obama is not a natural born citizen of the United States, or anyone who believes that Obama has an obligation to make public any records that would prove that the details of his birth satisfy the Constitution’s eligibility clause, are “birthers”.

    Particularly, if you feel that John Jay’s recommendation to G. Washington that the president be “natural born” doesn’t include citizens like Obama who are born with multiple allegiances to multiple nations, you are a “birther”.

    j curtis (5126e4)

  92. What gets lost I think is that this sort of inquiry is as predictable as it is healthy in a little country what is deficient in respectable journalism. The newsrooms of our little country are besotted with propaganda and rife with duplicitous whores. We are not a little country anymore what has the luxury of spitting on people what exercise their rights to question our enervated and morally bankrupt political class of losers and thugs and pansies.

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  93. It doesn’t bother me a bit. In fact, I wonder where he was born and who, in fact, his parents were. I wonder who the gatekeeper is for issues such as this involving the highest office in the land. Apparently that position doesn’t exist and the public is expected to go along with any charade imposed unless of course a conservative does the imposing.

    Mazzuchelli (0be5b4)

  94. Well insofar as Palin is saying that Obama can be asked for whatever the people want, because he wants to run the country, is 100% legit and fair.

    She never says Obama wasn’t born in the Hawaii or isn’t eligible, so she’s certainly not a birther.

    She says ‘rightfully’ they ask, but that seems like a reference to the fact that people are confused about Obama’s strange life and lack of information about a lot of his activities. A lot of his associations were covered up by the media and the Mccain campaign, and this is what gaver rise to fears some even darker truth lurks about Obama.

    She’s not accusing Obama of anything. She’s saying the people have the right to ask him for whatever they want. They (some of them, anyway) want to see his original birth certificate, and don’t trust the state of Hawaii’s bureacrats to not have forged something and lied. And that’s really not so insane.

    the problem is that it really does appear that Obama was born in Hawaii, and it’s really hard to believe this conspiracy is possible. But Palin doesn’t say it’s right to believe in the conspiracy.. she says it’s the people’s right to ASK about it.

    It’s good to hold her feet to the fire though, this is not presidential of her to bring up. This is kooky shit, and while the people have a right to ask about kooky shit, Palin doesn’t have to get into that kind of mud. As she notes, this is a lot like the disgusting attacks made on her… attacks people are loyal to her… because they wanted to oppose those very attacks.

    Pretty big mistake, I think. But it doesn’t diminish Palin’s values or anything… just makes her look inexperienced and kinda uncontrolled.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  95. happyfeet gets right to the point.

    this is about paranoia. Where does that come from? Are the American people justified in not trusting what they are told about Obama?

    Absolutely they are. And that’s a shame, because this is a particularly awful thing, and I don’t think it’s true, but my only proof is the easily forged records of Hawaii bureaucrats, the press’s promises, and Obama’s silence.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  96. A.W and MayBee,

    You have your opinions, and they are reasonable.

    We have been discussing the nature of “what words mean” and being consistent or not elsewhere.

    As I said before, she obviously does not reject the “birther’s” or marginalize them and think’s they have a reasonable (and legitmate) concern.
    (Say “birther”= one who wants to see Obama’s Birth certificate).
    But she also states it is not an issue that she puts much priority on.

    I would agree that is a reasonable expression of what I think, and I am neither selling a book nor running for anything. Could she be expressing herself this way because this is what she means, or as a political maneuver, or as a marketing ploy, or as some combination of the above? Yes. I guess which choice one prefers is indicative of our opinions rather than the words she used.

    MayBee, perhaps you have heard her more often than I have. I can’t recall any statements that I couldn’t understand. (Even if I did, to take off on Mark Twain, it’s the things I do understand from other politicians that really trouble me).

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  97. Doesn’t Palin have standing to push this case?

    I guess that would be even more idiotic of her, but I would watch out if she actually runs against Obama… she knows what the inside of a courtroom looks like.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  98. MS in Philly, if ‘birthers’ are everyone who wants to see the original certificate, then birther is not a derogatory term at all.

    I mean, I think he was born in Hawaii, and would love the original document just so I could prove it. He’s the US President, so every historical, journalist, and supporter of his should be a birther, by your definition?

    I mean, I don’t really mind if the word gets redefined in that crazy way. but Palin’s right… it’s legitimate to want to see all the records available about all the politicians at this level. The people don’t have to believe even common sense shit about Obama, because it’s obvious that a lot of covering up has occurred with respect to other facets of his life.

    she’s saying she understands, and the people are acting within their rights. She’s not saying (thank God) that Obama is ineligible to be president. What a shitty system we have, that this level of paranoia exists! It seems much more widespread than similarly unrealistic claims about other presidents.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  99. People don’t realize that Sarah Palin is in a lose lose situation.

    If she would have stayed in office she would’ve bankrupted herself and spent too much time fighting smears. When she quit she was deemed a quitter who couldn’t handle the pressure. Lose lose. Sanford should quit as governor, but if he does surely he will be criticized as a quitter.

    Sarah Palin had a ghostwriter, so now she is stupid and can’t write. Yet, if she wrote the book herself everybody would be complaining that she was spending too much time writing about herself and too little time doing something of substance.

    Do I believe she is a birther? No, but if she is, so what? Truthers have implications that people died because of our government, but most birthers (those with some sense of logic that are more caught up on the natural born citizen lingo and not a racist or deny everything lingo) merely think that Obama should have to produce his birth certificate like every other president. Period.

    Sarah Palin is right. People have the right to ask questions. I believe that Obama is simply withholding his birth certificate in order to make the right look stupid. When his numbers drop to a certain point he will release it, point fingers at the right, and hope his numbers rise because he is so transparent. I think the public is still rightfully making Wright an issue. I think the public is still rightfully making Ayers an issue. Everything is fair game.

    Since when have we let the left dictate what WE make issues?

    In my opinion, AP is turning out to be another Charles Johnson. Perhaps LGF is hiring? There’s no story here, stick to the LA Times, Patterico.

    Audacity (2fd5ad)

  100. Are the American people justified in not trusting what they are told about Obama?

    Now they see the government refusing to release documentation regarding the global warming that they’ve have been hit over the head with for the last several years. How is it okay to question why they won’t release climate data but not okay to question why Obama won’t release a birth certificate. If the government releases a version of their climate data that is as incomplete as the COLB certificate, will it be good enough to satisfy all skeptics and they should just shut up at that point or be considered kooks for not accepting the climate colb as the final word?

    j curtis (5126e4)

  101. Well let me say how i feel about birtherism.

    Look i was pretty shocked to find out they don’t normally ask for proof of eligibiltiy before you are sworn in as president. If something is a qualification for office, it is incumbant on the government to determine that the person is qualified. and its fair game for the public to ask, whether anyone checked his creds or not.

    But at some point you hear enough to meet the burden of proof. Obama apparently has done so. one might debate what the burden of proof is, but even proof beyond a reasonable doubt is passed when they can show contemporaneous birth announcements in hawaii. Then i turn to the birthers and i say, “okay, given all of that, what can you say to either knock down that powerful evidence, or at least come up with even more compelling evidence to the contrary?” And so far they have not come up with any good answers.

    If you want to keep investigating, well, its a free country i suppose. i mean if i was advising you, i would say “don’t waste your time” but its your call. But don’t expect me to believe he is not born in america, or even that there is reasonable doubt on the subject, until you come back with something better than you have today. And indeed unless you know some massive thing that i don’t, don’t pretend there is any serious doubt on the subject.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  102. #46 — Comment by MayBee — 12/4/2009 @ 8:24 am
    Why are people who ask about a presidential candidate’s birth certificate being compared to people who think our government killed 3,000 of its own citizens in a fake terrorist attack?

    Great question MayBee (and implied rhetorical point!).

    There is no conspiracy regarding President Obama’s birth Certificate. He just refuses to show it. A citizen who is simply curious or asks questions about the BC and who thinks it should be revealed is not asserting a conspiracy. There is no parity between such a citizen and a “truther” or a “birher”.

    A “truther” or “birther” both make unsupported claims, as their “proof” is always nebulous and fails objective scrutiny.

    There was no such claim made by Palin.

    Pons Asinorum (b0bc5f)

  103. Allahpundit casually remarked about a month ago on Hot Air that he was an “alumnus” (his term) of Mother Jones magazine. Draw your own conclusions.

    Official Internet Data Office (c4e07b)

  104. “There is no conspiracy regarding President Obama’s birth Certificate. He just refuses to show it.”

    I’d say a birther is anyone who isn’t satisfied by the snopes page on this.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    imdw (f8211e)

  105. A commenter over at WSJ-Online today, on Kim Strassel’s column re BHO’s West Point speech, noted that perhaps the great secrecy over BHO’s Collegiate records was the possibility that in applying to Occidental when he was 18, he might have tried to game the system, and claimed some nationality other than U.S.A.?
    Now, that would be serious!

    It just seems that if there is nothing derogatory in the text of the LFBC, or in the applications/transcripts/etc from Occidental, Columbia, and Harvard, all of that info would have been released, along with the tax-returns and medical records…

    AD - RtR/OS! (1f5025)

  106. Perhaps the birther question is resonating out there among the silent majority. And I have this little voice nagging me in the back of my head saying “Boy won’t you feel stupid if they’re right?”

    As for Palin, this will neither add nor detract. Her support is heart-based, not brain-based. Nothing wrong with that, so long as you are clear about it.

    Kevin Murphy (805c5b)

  107. 41, Sean, you are DEAD wrong. My middle daughter was born in Seoul, South Korea, of Korean parents. She has an original Birth Certificate in CALIFORNIA, but it does document her birth in Korea.

    How much egg would be on your face if the Original Long Form BC says that BHO was born in Kenya of an underage American woman and a British Subject from Kenya?

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  108. I’m more curious as to why he’s not showing the long form than much else about this. If it exists, what possible information could be there that — at this date — is worth the bother to protect? His real first name is Mohammad? Same with the college work. He’s sometimes glib, rarely, if ever, deep; this isn’t news.

    (I’m one of those people who don’t have an original, or even a registered copy. The state of Minnesota has cobbled together a different document for me (and thousands of others) whose records were destroyed in a fire several decades ago. The feds, at least so far, find this acceptable.)

    htom (412a17)

  109. imdw, snopes has been caught vouching for Democrat lies before.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  110. Oh, for the record, if Kim Mentally Ill had fired a missle at Hawaii, I would bet the only damage would be that only Obama’s long form BC would be destroyed.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  111. Comment by imdw — 12/4/2009 @ 10:54 am
    I’d say a birther is anyone who isn’t satisfied by the snopes page on this.

    Agreed, although Snopes is hardly objective when it comes to politics. Snopes did a good job of debunking the “birther” conspiracy theory.

    Snopes goes on to state that Certificate of Live Birth (12 parameters) was released. Although not explicitly stated, the original BC was not released (upwards of 20 parameters).

    Pons Asinorum (b0bc5f)

  112. “imdw, snopes has been caught vouching for Democrat lies before.”

    Let me repeat. Birther is anyone not satisfied by the snopes page on this

    “How much egg would be on your face if the Original Long Form BC says that BHO was born in Kenya of an underage American woman and a British Subject from Kenya?”

    The one on snopes says he was born in Honolulu

    imdw (62e262)

  113. “Perhaps the birther question is resonating out there among the silent majority.”

    No. It’s not. Neither is the Trig one.

    And both are exceedingly stupid.

    JEA (b29a48)

  114. The birther movement, such as it is, has been great for Obama; it is a distraction from real issues. It’s the role of a smart opposition leader to point people toward his real failings, and not fall for distractions.

    If you listen to the interview, she spends much of it on useful criticism; but that’s not what we’re discussing, because she went for the bait.

    She could have ducked the question, properly, as the distraction that it is. But she didn’t. That’s a rookie move, and at this point, she really shouldn’t be making rookie moves.

    How hard would it have been for her to say that she’s confident that he was born in Hawaii, and that discussions of his birth cerficate are a distraction?

    What she was doing was pandering, and not doing it very well.

    Joel Rosenberg (ab94ff)

  115. …but even proof beyond a reasonable doubt is passed when they can show contemporaneous birth announcements in hawaii.

    Comment by A.W. — 12/4/2009 @ 10:46 am

    All other arguments and points in this thread aside, a birth announcement, like a wedding announcement, can be submitted by anyone.

    Why would someone put in a bogus birth announcement? Well, if a mother, a US Citizen who gave birth abroad, to a child whose father was a non-citizen, it would make sense for her to try to protect her child’s rights and establish him as a Natural born citizen. Not because she had some crystal ball that showed her little guy might run for president someday, just to ensure him the same protections and opportunities natural born US citizens have. Mommy, her parents, other relatives, friends, anyone could have done so. It is common, for example, for the parents of US service personnel to see to birth announcements in the hometown paper for their grandchildren when the couple are overseas. They call the paper and talk a low level editorial staffer or, more recently, a classified ad rep because most papers now charge for birth announcements.

    While I am no lawyer, I would think that it wouldn’t be that to hard to discredit, or at least raise reasonable doubt about, a comtemporaneous birth announcement.

    Matador (176445)

  116. Sarah Palin is becoming waaay too over-exposed and she’s doing it to herself.

    elissa (90d488)

  117. Nope, this doesn’t bother me at all. The only thing she is saying is that there is a freedom to ask any questions they want or what they feel is important. After her experiences I don’t begrudge her viewpoint, in fact I don’t see how she could have answered in any other way. For the record, I don’t think that these birthers are correct and they are in fact obsessing over nothing. If I were a paranoid fellow I would almost think that this whole issue is a clever ruse by the Obama folks. How better to silence a large segment of your vocal opposition then to allow them to rant about an issue and then at a politically opportune time whip out the certificate thus discrediting both the issue and the opposition in one action. Sort of a get out of jail free card to use if things are getting iffy.
    Given a choice I would far rather see Obama’s academic transcripts along with any other work that he may have done at university. The reason I would ask this, is a large part of the Obama mythos is his incredibley superiour, cool headed intellect that he brings to bear on society’s problems. This intellect seemed to be missing from his term as the editor of the Harvard Law Review where it seems (please correct me) that he only wrote one opinion (anonymously). From what I have seen, other presidents have released their transcripts and this fellow has spent in excess of 1 million dollars in legal fees to ensure that none of this is released. Maybe I’m just being nosy but if your going to constantly play up his intellect it would be nice to see some proof.

    scr_north (697e70)

  118. Conservatives had to prove that George Bush senior did not get on an SR71 (October Surprise), yet if I ask to see proof of Obaba’s legitamacy to hold office I am somehow a whack job? Seems like a very easy issue for him to settle and you would think based on his track record of “accomplishments” to date he would want to appear to have the “right” answer to something!

    Steve (e5c232)

  119. To Dustin at #98-

    First, an analogy-

    Do you remember the story about the southern senator who was asked, “What do you think of whiskey?”
    He answered, “If you are talking about that filthy evil drink that brings ruin to a fine man and puts his wife and children into poverty, I tell you maam, I’m again’ it with all my heart and strength….
    but if you are talking about that fine golden colored beverage reserved for enjoyment after dinner between friends, well I’m all for it!”

    So, back to the heart of the issue, do words mean something, and who decides?

    The pro-Obama camp would like to promote the view that a “birther” is anyone who believes an irrational conspiracy theory, which has been proven untrue, that Obama is not eligible to be president by virtue of the circumstances of his birth.

    A different definition is a person who is suspicious why Obama won’t let his basic records out, things we assume are standard to look at when hiring a person for a job, let alone president, and they aren’t satisfied by the explanation, “just go away and be quiet, will you”.

    I think we would agree that the Obama camp would like to see anybody with any question about his past thrown in with “the birthers”, and would prefer to hide the factual evidence that Obama has not given permission for his birth certificate or other basic records to be viewed. Their aim would be to marginalize anyone who would like to see what is on his birth certificate or know his college records, to make legitimate questions appear to be irrational, so much so that rational people would be afraid to even raise the topic anymore.

    They have largely succeeded in making knowledge that would have been seen as the public’s right to know a mere 3 years ago into a request that is ridiculous and brings the response, “You’ve got to be kidding? You’re not one of those, are you?”

    Isn’t Big Brother’s Newspeak wonderful?

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  120. #119 Dustin – You are dead-on! Thank you.

    Steve (e5c232)

  121. 115

    It’s easier than that. If the baby had been born in Kenya, they would return to Hawaii at some point and register the birth of the child at the DOH. The baby would be a few weeks or months old at the time, but the DOH doesn’t look at the baby. The father or grandmother just signs the document and writes in the dob as yesterday. From there, the annoncement goes to the papers.

    At that time, most children in Hawaii probably weren’t born in hospitals so it would be a routine thing to go through at the DOH.

    j curtis (5126e4)

  122. Maybee writes in Post # 64

    “One more thing- as neither a Palin lover nor a Palin hater, I feel I must point out that she is not, and never has been, a precise speaker. She is often downright confusing. That is one of my problems with her. So I can’t put much bank in parsing the wording of her off-the-cuff comments.”

    Maybee, you’re a reasonable person. But when one considers just how much confusion has been sown by Obama’s Tuesday night speech re his plans for Afghanist, I would submit that she has a long way to go before reaching that level of being “downright confusing”.

    Mike Myers (3c9845)

  123. While it may sound whiney, if you try to debate when there are no rules, you are outnumbered, and logical consistency is not required, just about anyuthing you say or don’t say can be used against you.

    Q. “When did you stop beating your husband?”
    A1. “I never beat my husband.”
    Press Comment: She felt she needed to defend herself, I wonder why?

    A2. “Don’t you have something better to ask?”
    Press #2: She dodged the question.

    A3. She rolls eyes, ignores question, moves on.
    Press #3. There must be something to the rumor, she wouldn’t address it.

    114.The birther movement, such as it is, has been great for Obama; it is a distraction from real issues. It’s the role of a smart opposition leader to point people toward his real failings, and not fall for distractions.
    If you listen to the interview, she spends much of it on useful criticism; but that’s not what we’re discussing, because she went for the bait.
    How hard would it have been for her to say that she’s confident that he was born in Hawaii, and that discussions of his birth cerficate are a distraction?
    What she was doing was pandering, and not doing it very well.
    Comment by Joel Rosenberg — 12/4/2009 @ 11:36 am

    What we are seeing has been a tour de force in waging propaganda war. The original issues, unresolved and worthy of question concerning why so much secrecy, have been ignored while setting up a straw man of sorts (“those crazies”) to knock down.

    No matter what she said or didn’t say in that interview, those wanting to make it look bad could have. Is it better to say as little as possible to minimize targets? Perhaps it is, I don’t know, and she may learn to do it better.

    She could have simply tossed the “birthers” and their concerns under the bus, or she could have tried to downplay the unreasonable and put light on the reasonable- which seems like what she was trying to do. Sometimes it seems that the only way to have a good interview is to control the editing of the tape.
    On the other hand, there are lots of folks around the country who appreciate someone who will speak their mind and not “talk like a politician”.

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  124. Matador

    If the goal was to give him citizenship, then a birth announcement wouldn’t do anything.

    Seriously, there is no reasonable doubt at this point on the subject. not unless you have other evidence contradicting it, but gosh, you have a big burden to bear.

    and that is assuming you are a birther. i am not sure whether you are.

    i would also say that birthers are not really on the same level as truthers at all. maybe if obama was born on national TV, then it would be similar. Besides I find a moral difference between disbelieving a bad event (9-11) as opposed to trying to find evidence in the hopes of adverting a bad event (the Obama presidency). i mean i have said it before, but i totally get where birthers are coming from. I suspected Obama would be a terrible presidnet, and, well, i hate being right and so i can see the appeal of a theory that just might save our asses from any more of him. And often the wish that something is true drives the belief that it is. But of course the wishing isn’t really enough so we are stuck with our crappy reality.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  125. The real question is;
    ‘Why would he offer up such a badly counterfeited BC’ ?
    The rest is wild extrapolation, but the fraudulent BC remains as an unexplained mystery.

    Look at the dancing GIF’s over at atlas shrgs.
    JM

    Jo Med (c775d4)

  126. imdw, NO LEGITIMATE Long Form Birth Certificate for Barak Hussein Obama has EVER been released to the public. If snopes purports to have one, they are liars.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  127. OK, it’s time for me to officially and flamboyantly flaunt my ignorance.

    I’ve been trying for over an hour to figger out how to post with a link thingee and am now completely frustrated. (Yes, my 14 y.o. grand-daughter could show me – probably even my 11 y.o. one could as well – but they are visiting their grandmother for a week. And, yes, my ears are burning. Sigh.)

    Is there some sorta’ book like ‘Internet and Blogging for Old Guys who Should Know Better’ out there? Or would some kind soul hereabouts give me a coupla’ hints and a shove in the right direction?

    In the meantime, about three weeks ago I stumbled across an old Chicago newspaper that reported the ‘Kenyan born’ Obama would win a senatorial seat. I’ve tried and tried to find out if that was ever officially ‘recanted’ or ‘corrected’ but either my Googling skills are as minimal as my posting skills (very likely), or it just isn’t out there.

    For those who are interested, that newspaper article is at -
    http://web.archive.org/web/20040627142700/eastandard.net/headlines/news26060403.htm

    Perhaps it’s been refuted, but if so, I can’t find it. Anybody know?

    Contrary capitalistic contraptions.

    Robert N. (ad4ee7)

  128. Good gosh a’mighty the link posted. What’d i do right this time??

    Robert N. (ad4ee7)

  129. A.W. –

    I’m not a birther in the sense that I think he is guilty until proven innocent. I am skeptical given the stonewalling and reluctance to extinguish the argument once and for all, which Obama can do at any time.

    I agree the birth announcement would do nothing and said as much, but it is cited by Obamaphiles as evidence that all is well, which has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt for many.

    As for my example, I’m just saying a parent in that position (or the more concerned grandparents) might just take that step to lay a paper trail, not suggesting it would hold up.

    Matador (176445)

  130. Re Michael #65:

    So the birthers in the GOP ranks should be indulged and never criticized because its only fair? Fairness doesn’twin elections. Maybe Obama’s approval numbers will drop so low that any GOP candidate could win, but maybe he’ll fall into that range Bush did in 2004, low enough to be beatable but winning anyway because the opposition party did not come accross as sufficiently serious. I’m frankly not willing to take that chance, fairness be damned.

    Sean P (4fde41)

  131. #126 — Comment by PCD — 12/4/2009 @ 12:40 pm
    imdw, NO LEGITIMATE Long Form Birth Certificate for Barak Hussein Obama has EVER been released to the public. If snopes purports to have one, they are liars.

    PCD — Snopes does not make that claim; imdw’s statement was false.

    Pons Asinorum (b0bc5f)

  132. Mike Myers – I agree that Obama is very often downright confusing. I think sometimes he means to be, to hide the fact that he is taking every single position on any given issue. And I think sometimes his words are just a jumble.

    MayBee (f0bb2c)

  133. I’m with Techie at #1 up there. I think she’s just amused by it.

    As for the birthers themselves, AFAIK, citizenship is heritable and the O!ne’s mama was a citizen, ergo so is he. Even if not a very good one. As far as the argument goes that there were statutory restrictions in place at the time limiting the heritability of citizenship, therefore he ain’t, I don’t think those restrictions were Constitutional then, or now; so his citizenship, no matter how low a quality of it he posesses, isn’t in question.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  134. 126.imdw, NO LEGITIMATE Long Form Birth Certificate for Barak Hussein Obama has EVER been released to the public

    Forgive my ignorance, but I have a few questions:

    1. What information is contained on the “long form” that does not appear on the other form, as regards Obama’s qualification for office?

    2. What law or Constitional clause dictates how the qualifications for office are proven?

    A side observation:

    My son was born in Denver, CO, in 1991. We have moved a few times since then, and the copy of the original birth certificate we had obtained after his birth was lost (curiously enough, my daughter’s was not lost). When we all applied for passports a couple of years ago, we sent away to the Colorado Vital Records office for a new copy of my son’s birth certificate.

    Lo and behold, we were sent a Certification of Live Birth. This document showed my son’s date, time, and place of birth, as well as my name and my wife’s name. And it was accepted without question by the passport office.

    Last question:

    3. If that document was sufficient proof of my son’s citizenship, why wouldn’t a similar document prove Obama’s?

    Some chump (36dbd5)

  135. Fairness doesn’twin elections.

    Neither does wild – eyed speculation and an inclination to dumpster – dive. Those actions by the MSM and the Dems regarding Palin really had no effect on McCain losing – he did that all by his lonesome. The GOP needs to get on message and stay on it like a laser – it’s the handling of the economy, it’s the prosecution of the war, and it’s our stature in the world economic and political realms that matters most to the citizenry. Anything beyond that message will only be amplified and used for obfuscation by the WH and their loyal water carriers in the press. The GOP cannot afford to allow peripheral issues to enter the picture if they want to take back Congress next year.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  136. “imdw, NO LEGITIMATE Long Form Birth Certificate for Barak Hussein Obama has EVER been released to the public. If snopes purports to have one, they are liars.”

    I mean, the birth certificate at snopes. It states he was born in Honolulu.

    As I said before. A birther is a person who is not satisfied by this.

    imdw (8e7a13)

  137. “Does this bother anyone?”

    IMO, the Birthers are nitwits, but they have every right in the world to bring the issue up if they want to. Why anyone would be bothered by Sarah Palin saying that eludes me.

    I find it somewhat objectionable that Obama won’t simply produce all documentation that’s requested, but since there is no law requiring him to produce it, what can you do about it?.

    I also find it somewhat objectionable that a lot of public money and time have been wasted on frivolous lawsuits over this matter. This is getting a little bit ridiculous.

    As for Andrew Sullivan, he’s a disease ridden, foreign national muckraker who never should have been allowed to set foot in America, and he’s meddling in business which is none of his concern. If it was up to me, I’d have has bare-backing, HIV riddled carcass kicked out of the United States in about two seconds. We have enough homegrown trash in America, we don’t need to import more.

    Dave Surls (74646b)

  138. As I said before. A birther is a person who is not satisfied by this.

    Comment by imdw — 12/4/2009 @ 1:20 pm

    Do you believe that Obama is a natural born citizen despite being born with dual citizenship?

    j curtis (5126e4)

  139. j. curtis

    the constitution says that if you are born in the united states you are a citizen of the US–in other words, a natural born citizen. if kenya wants to claim he is a citizen of their country, too, that’s their business, but that doesn’t change the fact that obama is a citizen because he was born here.

    I find it horrifying that you would endorse a view of the law that would allow the quirks of another country to take away the rights of an american citizen. yes, obama is a terrible president. i sincerely wish this birtherism was true. but we can say to what us lawyers call a “moral certainty” that obama was born in america.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  140. Do you believe that Obama is a natural born citizen despite being born with dual citizenship?

    Yes. The two are not mutually exclusive. There’s nothing in 8 USC 1401 that says someone with dual citizenship is not a US citizen and national from birth.

    Now, you can argue that the law should be changed. And there’s a good case to be made for that. But right now, the law does not preclude someone with dual citizenship from being a natural-born citizen.

    The law says what it says, not what we want it to say.

    Some chump (8087d5)

  141. Actual birthers are teh suck.

    JD (bdd997)

  142. If a person needs some section of 8 USC 1401 to be considered a US citizen, then he is not a natural-born citizen.

    “The constitution says that if you are born in the united states you are a citizen of the US. . .”

    Yes.

    “. . .in other words, a natural born citizen.”

    Not necessarily.

    “Do you believe that Obama is a natural born citizen despite being born with dual citizenship?

    In which two (or more) countries do you believe Obama has citizenship? That has not been proven. His US citizenship, if it exists, would be derived from a retroactive application of 8 USC 1401, which would mean he’s a US citizen, but not a natural-born one.

    Official Internet Data Office (c4e07b)

  143. “Do you believe that Obama is a natural born citizen despite being born with dual citizenship?”

    Does snopes not address this trope? If so I may have to change my definition of what is a birther to include this junk too.

    imdw (6951c3)

  144. “His US citizenship, if it exists, would be derived from”

    being born in honolulu, and the 14th amendment.

    imdw (6951c3)

  145. I think Obama was born in Hawaii and have no doubts that he is a “legal” citizen and thus eligible for the Presidency.

    None the less, he is very secretive about his past. I’ve been keeping this list of information he is withholding and adding to it as I become aware of additional items. It keeps growing.

    Obama/Dunham marriage license — Not released
    Vault Birth Certificate (Long Form) — Not released
    Obama/Dunham divorce — Released (by independent investigators)
    Soetoro/Dunham marriage license — Not released
    Soetoro adoption records — Not released
    Indonesian School records — Not released
    Punahou School records — Not released
    Soetoro/Dunham divorce — Released (by independent investigators)
    Soetero/Obama name change documentation – Not released
    Selective Service Registration — Released — authenticity questioned
    Occidental College records — Not released
    Passport records — Not released
    Columbia College records — Not released
    Columbia thesis — “Soviet Nuclear Disarmament” — Not released
    Harvard College records — Not released
    Harvard Law Review articles — None
    Illinois Bar Records — Not released
    Baptism certificate — None
    Medical records — Not released
    Law practice client list — Not released
    University of Chicago scholarly articles — None
    Annenberg Challenge Board Minutes — None
    Illinois State Senate records — None
    Illinois State Senate schedule — Lost

    Hank Archer (d8389b)

  146. “Selective Service Registration — Released — authenticity questioned

    That is amusing. So much for the “SHOW US THE LONG FORM” shit. Nothing will satisfy.

    imdw (afa109)

  147. Did anybody else look at the link in #127 from Robert N?

    If it’s a fraud site I’d never heard of it before, and my computer is still running.

    It is not a Chicago paper, it is called The Standard in Kenya, here is the beginning of it:

    Sunday, June 27, 2004
    Kenyan-born Obama all set for US Senate
    ————————————————–
    Kenyan-born US Senate hopeful, Barrack Obama, appeared set to take over the Illinois Senate seat after his main rival, Jack Ryan, dropped out of the race on Friday night …

    Is it a mistake, a very elaborate hoax, the smoking gun? (the later I doubt).

    Somebody else take a look at it, please, unless you already know it to be a fraud.

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  148. His US citizenship, if it exists, would be derived from a retroactive application of 8 USC 1401, which would mean he’s a US citizen, but not a natural-born one, either through paragraph (a) of 8 US 1401:

    The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

    (a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

    or paragraph (g):

    (g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years . . .

    Official Internet Data Office (c4e07b)

  149. #127 that is the East African Standard, I & M Building, Kenyatta Avenue,
    P.O Box 30080, 00100 GPO, Nairobi-Kenya.

    Neo (7830e6)

  150. I agree with post #64. I WANTED to like former Palin as a national candidate. I still would vote for her in a second before Barack Obama. She certainly seemed to be a perfectly good governor and the attacks on her in that regard seemed to no basis. However, on the national stage she has seemed both remarkably unseasoned and lacking of certain types of knowledge that one would expect of a national political figure.

    Jim (85ad55)

  151. I’d like to see the original manuscript of “Dreams from my Father” to see what notations the editors added.

    Neo (7830e6)

  152. #146 – thank-you for finding that. I stumbled over it after being told it was a Chicago paper. I don’t know if it’s a fraud – have spent a couple hrs. googling to no avail.

    Robert N. (ad4ee7)

  153. Official

    Re: 142: “Not necessarily.”

    Let me get this straight. You can be a citizen by birth, but not a natural born citizen?

    What a bunch of crap. As for your statutory citation, the statute has covered born in the united states since 1952. As though any crappy statute could take away rights granted by the constitution. Sorry, but if you are born here, you are citizen by virtue of that birth and thus a naturally born citizen.

    Get a clue.

    Let me go through this really slow because I think you need it slow:

    1. the 14th amendment makes him a citizen. To quote it: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”

    2. the reason why the 14th A applies is because he was born here.

    3. ergo he is a citizen by virtue of his birth.

    4. therefore he is a naturally born citizen.

    Now let’s put the dunce cap on you for failing constitutional law 101.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  154. #127 – thanx. Still learning how to handle Internet data. MUCH more to learn.

    Robert N. (ad4ee7)

  155. oops that’s #148.

    Robert N. (ad4ee7)

  156. True Birthers are more comparable to people who thing Al Gore really “won” the election than to Truthers.

    MayBee (f0bb2c)

  157. This is a free country. If Andrew Sullivan wants to submit 10,000 words on the uterine orgins of Trig Palin, Alex Jones wants to wax poetically about Bush orchestrating 9/11 and Birther Orly Taitz wants to file a bajillion lawsuits to get Obama’s long form because his aged aunt insists he was born in Kenya, then YES, they are RIGHTFULLY doing so.

    And if it upsets me that Alex Jones blames Bush for 9/11, I can RIGHTFULLY take it up with him.

    w3bgrrl (12f86d)

  158. As we contemplate the “smoking gun” that is Climategate I find it strange that Mr. Frey can be so dismissive of the suspicions which BHO’s refusal to publish his full birth information arouses in reasonable people, especially as this is just one of many lacunae in his record, exempli gratia, the records of his time at Occidental, Columbia and Harvard, the passport he used when visiting Pakistan, etc.

    The “cranks” and “kooks” of AWG “denialism” don’t look at all cranky nor the slightest bit kooky as it is now apparent that their wildest accusations concerning Algoreism turn out to be plain statements of fact: data has been drastically manipulated, a conspiracy existed to suppress the truth, the climate alarmists’ codes are contaminated, the science is not settled in the slightest, the peer-review system was corrupted to its core, the “deniers” were smeared and hounded and “quarantined” by the catastrophists to protect their activist agenda….

    The lesson: simply because something seems grotesque, unprecedented, bizarre and unbelievable – as Birtherism appears to be – does not mean it is not true! Proof is required. Disdain, contempt and mockery sans proof will not answer anymore.

    liamascorcaigh (d26d94)

  159. 144.“His US citizenship, if it exists, would be derived from”

    being born in honolulu, and the 14th amendment.

    Comment by imdw — 12/4/2009 @ 2:00 pm

    And I suppose you would tell me that McCain’s is derived by something else.

    If you would claim that McCain could have been born anywhere outside the US and still a natural born citizen due to his parents being US citizens, yet you would still allow that he is a natural born citizen jus soli in the nation where he was born, then it would be your contention that one can be born not only with dual citizenship but with dual natural born citizenship.

    Such a person, you would argue, could be president of the nation where he was born and then move to the US, establish the residency requirement, and then become POTUS.

    Would SCOTUS have a problem with that?

    j curtis (5126e4)

  160. liama

    your problem is you are fixated on one kind of evidence as the be all and end all of evidence. in a court of law we accept many different kinds of evidence.

    no, he hasn’t produced his long form birth certificate, but he has presented enough other things that it is sufficient.

    And why doesn’t he produce it? my guess is because people like you keep making fools of yourselves and he wants to encourage you to keep doing it.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  161. “If you would claim that McCain could have been born anywhere outside the US and still a natural born citizen due to his parents being US citizens, yet you would still allow that he is a natural born citizen jus soli in the nation where he was born, then it would be your contention that one can be born not only with dual citizenship but with dual natural born citizenship.”

    Jus soli what? Read the 14th amendment. Read the birth certificate. That’s the end of it.

    imdw (688568)

  162. j. curtis

    that is an irrational argument. You assume kenya has the same rules we do. the fact is that kenya can make up whatever rules it wants in choosing presidents. it could pass appropriate laws and constitutional amendments saying, literally, “as of this date, Sarah Palin is president of kenya” and assuming their lawyers do the job right, according to you John McCain is hereby disqualified as an american from being our president. You are fetishizing obama’s heritage, but you forget that there is nothing that requires kenya to do the same. sheesh.

    no nation can take away any american citizen’s rights by its unilateral conduct.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  163. “Proof is required.”

    Like it or not, there is no law that requires Obama to provide some specific proof that’s he a natural born American citizen.

    At least I’m not aware of any such law.

    Dave Surls (74646b)

  164. Imdw is disingenuous, folks. He knows you cannot “read the birth certificate”.

    JD (05d719)

  165. If a person needs some section of 8 USC 1401 to be considered a US citizen, then he is not a natural-born citizen.

    Again, this is bullshit. 8 USC 1401 states the conditions under which a person is a US national and citizen from birth. How can you be a citizen from birth and yet not a natural-born citizen?

    Some chump (8087d5)

  166. #158. I think McCain is a citizen, but not a “natural born Citizen.”

    #152. Lighten up, Francis. First of all, the statutes date from the early 1950s, it’s true, but were revised in the 1970s–in other words, after 1961.

    In addition, here’s a US Supreme Court decision, US v. Wong Kim Ark, for you to read. For starters, note this passage:

    “The Constitution of the United States, as originally adopted, uses the words “citizen of the United States,” and “natural-born citizen of the United States.” By the original Constitution, every representative in Congress is required to have been “seven years a citizen of the United States,” and every Senator to have been “nine years a citizen of the United States.” and “no person except a natural-born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President.”

    The Constitution names two types of citizenship when discussing qualification for holding office, not one. I don’t think that’s just for the hell of it.

    Later, the opinion quotes from a previous case, Minor vs. Happersett:

    “At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children, born in a country of [p680] parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further, and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction, without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class, there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.”

    [emphasis mine]

    Official Internet Data Office (c4e07b)

  167. Jus soli what? Read the 14th amendment. Read the birth certificate. That’s the end of it.

    Comment by imdw — 12/4/2009 @ 2:40 pm

    I not only read the amendment, I read the senate debate and I know that “under the jurisdiction” means complete jurisdiction. A dual citizen doesn’t qualify.

    I guess you agreed that a person can be a dual natural born citizen if the other nation has the same citizenship laws that you think the US has. But you kind of avoided answering that.

    j curtis (5126e4)

  168. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander?

    I think Palin more of a brawler than McCain and she clearly wanted to hit back hard… or let others hit hard without the McCain “denouncements” of hard hitting ads.

    I heard her saying (paraphrased) it’s OK for people to ask for whatever they want and turnabout is fair play.

    If you want to dig dirt on Obama, there has to be a better place to look than his birth certificate fer cryin out loud.

    SteveG (97b6b9)

  169. Is Sarah Palin a birther?
    Unless she used a C-section, I guess she is.

    Now, can we talk about something serious?

    AD - RtR/OS! (1f5025)

  170. I didn’t have to overanalyze this whole statement. Sarah is so matter-of-fact, yet she can say things without really saying them. I read through the lines that “Hey, if you want to be a politician, your life becomes an open book..just like mine has been. You even know I got a D in a class 30 years ago. What do you know about Obama?” Not only do we know very little about Obama, look at the way he exposed incriminating information about opponents in his elections, to clear the field. IMO, with Sarah, what you see is what you get. Good, bad, or indifferent, at least you get honesty and openness.

    sybilll (9e7b00)

  171. I like what Ace had to say about this today.

    MayBee (f0bb2c)

  172. Good for Sarah. Asking questions is absolutely acceptable. Indeed, asking questions that make politicians uncomfortable is essential to a functioning democracy.

    John Y (aa1e58)

  173. Well all those cadets he tried to resuurect his flailing career on tuesday had to show their long form so should Obama

    Its amazing that anyone applying for a top secret clearance or a job have to show it

    But the guy who owns sealed court records to win a senate seat

    EricPWJohnson (9b7688)

  174. Does this bother anyone?

    What that she said what she said or that she didn’t take it back or that it was said at all?

    No…No…No…

    If your a public offical as in paid by me. I have the right to know certain things about you. Including where your from. What your beliefs are and how you feel about certain things. And if you lie to me or don’t give me the requested information then you can’t be trusted and you should be fired.

    But that is just me.

    Papa Ray

    Papa Ray (4091d1)

  175. that is an irrational argument. You assume kenya has the same rules we do. the fact is that kenya can make up whatever rules it wants in choosing presidents.

    Comment by A.W. — 12/4/2009 @ 2:43 pm

    It would be hypocritical to suggest that other nations aren’t entitled to have the same citizenship laws we have, and that was the basis of my hypothetical. If a nation did have the same laws, we would be faced with a constitutional crisis because we would have to recognize dual natural born citizenship. If we would tell Japan that “babies born to Japanese citizens on US soil are mostly ours and babies born to US citizens in Japan are mostly ours”, then that would mean the US is extremely greedy and jingoistic in claiming citizens. That is the opposite of the loyalty requirements envisioned by the original founders and the 14 amendment founders.

    j curtis (5126e4)

  176. sorry – that should be opened not owned

    EricPWJohnson (9b7688)

  177. “I not only read the amendment, I read the senate debate and I know that “under the jurisdiction” means complete jurisdiction. ”

    Yeah the birthers have tried this trope too. Does snopes not cover this? Damn I thought I had come up with an easy definition.

    “I guess you agreed that a person can be a dual natural born citizen if the other nation has the same citizenship laws that you think the US has.”

    Of course they can.

    “Imdw is disingenuous, folks. He knows you cannot “read the birth certificate”.”

    Whatever you want to call it. It’s on snopes. If that’s not enough, birther it is.

    imdw (8e7a13)

  178. “”It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.””

    Well if you go by that Obama is not a citizen.

    But you knew that.

    Papa Ray

    Papa Ray (4091d1)

  179. “If a nation did have the same laws, we would be faced with a constitutional crisis because we would have to recognize dual natural born citizenship”

    Why would this be a problem? Someone born here is naturally born a US citizen. That doesn’t mean they can’t be naturally born a citizen of somewhere else. What’s the crisis?

    imdw (8e7a13)

  180. Maybe you should read this.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Papa Ray (4091d1)

  181. j curtis: please show the law which states that someone born with dual citizenship is not a natural born US citizen.

    Some chump (36dbd5)

  182. 136, imdw is an idiot. He can’t read with comprehension. A Certification of Live Birth is not the same as an Original Long Form Birth Certificate. imdw is a desperate liar.

    PCD (29d691)

  183. Here is an interesting discussion on this:

    http://patdollard.com/2009/12/you-did-not-just-say-thatthe-constitution-is-just-a-suggestion/

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Papa Ray (4091d1)

  184. A Certification of Live Birth is not the same as an Original Long Form Birth Certificate.

    What law makes either necessary? For anything?

    nk (df76d4)

  185. Necessary means “nothing else will do” in this instance.

    nk (df76d4)

  186. OK…what kind of spam filter do you have here?

    Papa Ray (4091d1)

  187. “136, imdw is an idiot. He can’t read with comprehension. A Certification of Live Birth is not the same as an Original Long Form Birth Certificate. imdw is a desperate liar.”

    Right. All it does is certify he was born in Honolulu. And you can read it at snopes. And if that’s not enough, then you’re a birther.

    imdw (ba952c)

  188. a cert of live birth is not a birth cert

    I know the super coolaid back lets be reasonable crowd scoff – but try using one to get a fed job or a passport

    EricPWJohnson (9b7688)

  189. “…And you can read it at snopes. And if that’s not enough, then you’re a birther….”

    Classy!

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  190. imdw, you are not helping your case by quoting Snopes. He’s about as reliable as Wikipedia and nowhere near as fun.

    nk (df76d4)

  191. please show the law which states that someone born with dual citizenship is not a natural born US citizen.

    Comment by Some chump — 12/4/2009 @ 3:45 pm

    The phrase, “subject to its jurisdiction” was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.

    SLAUGHTERHOUSE CASES, 83 U. S. 36 (1872)

    Dear Sir,

    Permit me to hint whether it would not be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of foreigners into the administration of our national government ; and to declare expressly that the command in chief of the American army shall not be given to, nor devolve on any but a natural born citizen.

    I remain, dear sir,

    Your faithful friend and servant,

    John Jay.

    It is far fetched to believe that Jay was including dual citizens.

    Those are your constitutional citizens. Citizenship by legislation is naturalized citizenship. There is a reason that Congress has never passed laws to make citizens out of people born in the US to US citizens. They didn’t need to because those are the natural born citizens.

    j curtis (5126e4)

  192. I think Sarah should drop a turd in Obama’s punch bowl every chance she gets. Death Panel, anyone?

    twolaneflash (931ca0)

  193. Snopes is the end-all be-all and you are all godfreaky snowbilly birthers.

    JD (618122)

  194. Did the King of England ever release the founding fathers from their allegiance to him?

    nk (df76d4)

  195. snopes is unreliable. They used to be an authority, but now are quite political.

    Not that this matters. Obama’s media circle has made people suspicious, and if you don’t think that’s understandable, you’re part of the problem.

    People get to ask questions. This is a problem Obama has been part of. He simply has not done all he could to clear this up, and it’s legit for citizens to want to know what he’s hiding, though Palin obviously realizes this is almost certainly nothing regarding eligibility.

    It’s the cover up that matters. Saying he’s eligible even if he did lie throughout the campaign is a pretty dumb red herring. He would still belong behind bars if he wasn’t born in Hawaii, as a US Citizen solely, as one of the most egregious con men in history. That the courts would obviously hold him eligible, no matter what the evidence, is pretty irrelevant. Thankfully, he was almost surely born in Hawaii, but I want to see all documents about this guy anyway. He’s too much a question mark.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  196. A lot of countries have the one grandparent rule and you can disavow it until you are blue in the face but you are still their citizen for their purposes even if those purposes are not yours.

    But, you know, just to be on the safe side, we should only vote for people who are 100% of American Indian descent, just to be safe.

    nk (df76d4)

  197. “And don’t try to tell me ….”
    OK then. It must be settled then.

    SEK and Sarah Palin are peas in a pod.

    SteveG (97b6b9)

  198. Uh, let’s see……hot air ended the post with this:
    “I think Palin just discovered the First Rule of Blogs: Don’t feed the trolls.”
    Sorry. Hot Air missed the mark. She’s not feeding the trolls. She’s feeding her, and your, base.
    You, Patterico, posted this for one reason, and one reason only: to pump a bit more helium in Palin’s hot-air balloon.
    You couched in it a tiny bit of doubt that was a whole lot more cover than doubt. So it doesn’t count. You posted it.
    Sorta like that long, drawn out bit you did a few days ago about some other blogger and a race-baiting post.
    That you raised what you raised indicates that you want it raised.
    Period.
    You, as is Hot Air, are a birther.

    You think you’re all deft and sh…..stuff.

    Larry Reilly (45c8f2)

  199. Uh, let’s see……hot air ended the post with this:
    “I think Palin just discovered the First Rule of Blogs: Don’t feed the trolls.”
    Sorry. Hot Air missed the mark. She’s not feeding the trolls. She’s feeding her, and your, base.
    You, Patterico, posted this for one reason, and one reason only: to pump a bit more helium in Palin’s hot-air balloon.
    You couched in it a tiny bit of doubt that was a whole lot more cover than doubt. So it doesn’t count. You posted it.
    Sorta like that long, drawn out bit you did a few days ago about some other blogger and a race-baiting post.
    That you raised what you raised indicates that you want it raised.
    Period.
    You, as is Hot Air, are a birther.

    You think you’re all deft and sh…..stuff.

    Larry Reilly (45c8f2)

  200. nk

    There is a resource you can go to – the state department website – that’l tell you the rules of citizenship for all countries

    EricPWJohnson (9b7688)

  201. j curtis writes: “Citizenship by legislation is naturalized citizenship.

    False. But also irrelevant, the language of the understanding of “natural born citizen” that predates the 14th Amendment is obsolete upon the ratification of the 14th Amendment.

    There is no rational argument that Obama is not a natural born citizen given his birth in Hawaii.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  202. Now Larry is claiming that Patterico is a Birther. That kind of lying by Larry by itself ought to be a ticket out of here.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  203. Hey, look over here!!

    nk, EricPW, Dustin, Eric Blair and gang

    #147.Did anybody else look at the link in #127 from Robert N?

    It is (was???) a page of the On-line Edition of the East African Standard, here is part of it:

    Sunday, June 27, 2004
    Kenyan-born Obama all set for US Senate
    ————————————————–
    Kenyan-born US Senate hopeful, Barrack Obama, appeared set to take over the Illinois Senate seat after his main rival, Jack Ryan, dropped out of the race on Friday night …

    As I was trying to post this F/U a few minutes ago the page is no longer found- I don’t know if this is a momentary gl;itch or what, here is what I see now:

    “Way Back Machine”

    Failed Connection.

    We’re sorry. Your request failed to connect to our servers. This may be due to temporary problems in our data center, or difficulty serving a higher-than-usual volume of traffic.

    You may want to:

    Try again later
    Search other dates for your page, eastandard.net/headlines/news26060403.htm
    Search for all pages on the site eastandard.net/
    Try a different page address, at top

    Anybody try to look at the link before???

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  204. I saw it just fine, MD. The story mentioned the Kenyan born thing in the headline, but was mostly about Ryan. Didn’t look like a hatchet job, but who knows?

    Matador (176445)

  205. Apparently Mawy Reilly had a grand time at happy hour.

    JD (e58a23)

  206. #203 — Comment by MD in Philly — 12/4/2009 @ 5:32 pm
    MD — Yes the link worked earlier, but no longer appears valid.

    Here is another link with the same article:

    http://www.obamanotqualified.com/kenyan-born_obama-news26060403.htm

    Pons Asinorum (b0bc5f)

  207. Matador-

    Yes, it was about Ryan’s campaign falling apart and how things were looking good for the “Kenyan-born US Senate hopeful”

    So: was/is this site:
    - an elaborate hoax?
    - a real headline/ article detail but mistaken due to sloppy reporting or translation issues?
    - footprints on the trail that didn’t get covered up?
    - who are you, Robert N.?
    - has the site been killed, even as we were discussing it???

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  208. Pons, what the heck do you make of it?? It looks like you got it on a site other then the original archived elsewhere?

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  209. I saw that and wondered if it was Kenyan nationalism over reaching or maybe it was something else.

    MIke K (2cf494)

  210. We constantly criticize American journalists but Kenyan ones get it right?

    nk (df76d4)

  211. Looks like I’m going to be able to clean up my “must read” list some more.

    Would never have guessed I was so wrong about this blog.

    Larry Sheldon (86b2e1)

  212. I’m still looking for that American law that makes a birth certificate the sine quo non for anything. Has anybody else had better luck finding it?

    nk (df76d4)

  213. The internet is full of stuff like this. The article itself offers no proof or evidence of any assertion.

    Without proof, I dismiss such things out-of-hand.

    (however if this link disappears…[twilight zone music]…)

    Pons Asinorum (b0bc5f)

  214. http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?incl=ContactUs

    Here’s the link to the real East African standard contact page. My first try, so probably won’t work. But I think I’ll try to find out if the archived story is legit.

    Matador (176445)

  215. The “Certificate of Live Birth” issued by the State of Hawaii Health Department is the official record of the state. The fact that it is not called a “Birth Certificate” is irrelevant.

    It is prepared from data collected from local hospitals regarding births in the state that is transmitted electronically to the Dept. of Health. The hospitals no longer create paper documents to reflect births.

    At the time Obama was born, the hospitals produced their own documents with all the relevant vital information. My understanding is that at some point in the last 7-8 years, all the historical documentation that was produced by hospitals was converted into an electronic database. So, if someone born 45 years ago wants to get a record of their birth, they fill out a form and send it along with $10 to the State Dept. of Health, and what you get back is the “Certificate of Live Birth.” You do not get — and I don’t think you can get — copies of the original hospital documentation.

    The document that is posted on the website for inspection is a “Certificate of Live Birth” issued in the manner set forth above.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Shipwreckedcrew (6178ee)

  216. If it is true that about 25 – 30% of Republicans are ‘birthers’ and a percentage of remaining Republicans wouldn’t mind a quick peak at the BC then I say Palin just nailed almost half the Republican vote. All without declaring support or lack of support for the whole BC issue!

    LOL (3b8d8f)

  217. #135: “The GOP needs to get on message and stay on it like a laser – it’s the handling of the economy, it’s the prosecution of the war, and it’s our stature in the world economic and political realms that matters most to the citizenry. Anything beyond that message will only be amplified and used for obfuscation by the WH and their loyal water carriers in the press.”

    Bingo. If I were Obama, I’d be laughing myself to sleep over this nonsense. Unfortunately, I thought this whole issue had died down, I really had no idea how widespread birther simpathy is.

    Sean P (579fd6)

  218. But when Larry Reilly insults Patterico and writes:

    “…You think you’re all deft and sh…..stuff….”

    Well, that is both ironic and funny. It’s right up there with “I work here is done” for bizarre trollery.

    Honestly, do these characters ever listen to themselves?

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  219. Pons and nk-

    I am neither jumping up and down and saying this means anything, and neither am I going to say that even if it is true it means he can’t be president.

    I’m just saying it looks interesting enough to wonder about it, and if it was true, it sure would turn out to look real bad for the bulk of the MSM and the Obama administration as to who was truthful and who the “nutcases” really were.

    So, if you don’t hear from me again…

    But I have other things to do now, and I can rest satisfied knowing this puzzle has now been put into the very capable hands of more skilled and brilliant people than I.

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  220. No problem, MD in Philly. Like I said before, hearsay and reputation is competent evidence in birth cases, under the law.

    nk (df76d4)

  221. But, you know, just to be on the safe side, we should only vote for people who are 100% of American Indian descent, just to be safe.

    Comment by nk — 12/4/2009 @ 4:42 pm

    Indians ( native Americans ) who are born with some loyalty to a reservation aren’t natural born citizens. Nothing was made more clear than that during the debates on the 14th Amendment.

    They have a way to amend that if you don’t like it.

    j curtis (5126e4)

  222. Your comments get crazier and crazier, j curtis.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  223. j curtis,

    Who gives a flying fuck what the debates on the Fourteenth Amendment were. The debates are not law. The Amendment is law.

    You Ron Paul clowns have a consistent habit of citing dissent to the law as law. It’s not only annoying, it’s ridiculous.

    nk (df76d4)

  224. I thought only liberal pissants blamed “vast right wing conspiracies” etc when things aren’t going their way. Why are we suddenly feeling the need to scapegoat? we need to be focusing on Obama’s horrible policies that run counter to principals most americans can get behind – namely limited government, states rights, individual liberty and oppose the most insipid usurper of liberty – taxation. Desperately grasping for a shortcut to victory will only sour moderates to our cause. We have a good shot at ousting the POS-in-chief in 2012 – no need to start sounding like Cindy Sheehan.

    Underdown (bc1896)

  225. Gee whiz, what is it about Sarah Palin and the whole “birther” notion that drives everybody crazy?

    It’s like the lone bullet.

    Ag80 (3d1543)

  226. #219 MD in Philly:

    …and neither am I going to say that even if it is true it means he can’t be president.

    Good thing, since he already is, and again AFAIK, the only procedure for removing him prior to expiration of his term is impeachment. And on what grounds would that be?

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  227. “imdw, you are not helping your case by quoting Snopes. He’s about as reliable as Wikipedia and nowhere near as fun.”

    It’s not to bolster my case. It’s just the standard: if the snopes page on this birther issue doesn’t satisfy you and end the issue, you are a birther.

    imdw (01dd72)

  228. “… if the snopes page on this birther issue doesn’t satisfy you and end the issue, you are a birther….”

    Keith Olbermann, someone has stolen your bombast.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  229. Good Allah. Snopes is the final word. Period. You are all krazed birthers because imdw sez so. A disingenuous dishonesty douchenozzle is laying claim over the ability to define you based on its own criteria, which just so happens to skew left. Simply asking the question makes you a birther, and by extension a racist, and prolly a homophobe.

    JD (855966)

  230. Come on. Is this really an issue? President Obama’s mother was, without a doubt, a citizen of the United States.

    There are a whole lot of matters to debate. This is, simply, not one of them.

    Crucify me at will, but don’t expect me to back you again on Constitutional issues.

    Ag80 (3d1543)

  231. First of all, I did not read any of the commentary (famous last words, I know) because I felt the query to be leading and poisonous. But, since it is still very active, as shown by the numerous comments left, I decided to weigh in on a certain aspect (or so).

    The fact BHO has refused to release his birth certificate (long form) means he has something to hide. The fact BHO has refused to release his college grades means he has something to hide. The fact BHO is pumping lots of OPM into hiding whatever he needs to hide means he has some potentially very damaging info to hide.

    While I’m not a birther per se (if his mother was a US citizen, that means something), I believe there is a strong reason to claim he is hiding something with his high-dollar defense of his refusal to release his long form birth certificate.

    And, yes, his birth certificate is most definitely fair game. Again, I did not read any of the commentary (famous last words and all that) but anyone seeking or gaining high political office should necessarily be under much heavier scrutiny, especially if that someone refuses to release material that is normally released, and more especially if that someone spends scads of franklins in an effort to refuse to release material that is normally released. There is definitely something there, of that I am certain. Birthers may be disappointed in what is there, but that does not change the fact that there is definitely something there.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  232. “How much egg would be on your face if the Original Long Form BC says that BHO was born in Kenya of an underage American woman and a British Subject from Kenya?”

    Plenty, but you know what? It doesn’t matter because Obama WASNT BORN IN KENYA and you are wasting your time (and the GOP’s reputation) chasing this little rainbow when you should be fighting the massive government intrusion into health care stimulus, et al.

    Sean P (579fd6)

  233. As I stated in comment 45, I have had a permit to carry a concealed pistol in the state of Connecticut since 1989, more than twenty years. When I renewed that permit in September I was forced to profer proof that I was a United States citizen. I could have provided either a birth certificate, a passport or naturalization papers (as being born a citizen is not a requirement). Obviously I am more important than the President as I was required to show a state official documented proof of my eligibility.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  234. AG80 @ 230 says that this isn’t a big deal because Obama’s mother was an American, so Obama was born a citizen (or at least the courts would say he was).

    That’s a huge red herring, and really foolish argumentation.

    If Obama has lied to that extent, he’s committed a multi billion dollar fraud, is guilty of perjury, has circumvented democracy, and belongs behind bars. Thank goodness this is extremely unlikely to be the case, but those saying ‘so what! he’s eligible no matter what’s on that form’ are completely missing the point. The people have a right to know what’s on his certificate, transcript, etc. Obama could authorize that long-form thing, and doesn’t. Since the media covers so much up for him, since he has so many ugly connections, people are bound to be paranoid when he deliberately fails to clear something like this up. I mean, it’s not like state bureaucrats haven’t famously broken the law to protect Obama.

    I think there’s enough evidence to strongly believe he was born in Hawaii, but that’s not the point. I think there’s virtually no chance he’d be ruled ineligible, no matter what’s on the paper, but that’s not the point. The people rightfully want to know more about Obama, and will not trust a politician that comes into power with this kind of media slant and secrecy.

    That’s what this is about.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  235. #234: No its not a red herring, because if his nation of birth was not essential to determine eligibility he wouldn’t have committed the fraud in the first place. What’s the upside? And as for this comment:

    “The people righfully want to know more about Obama, and will not trust a politician that comes into power with this kind of media slant and secrecy.”

    THEY ALREADY DID! As for learning more about him, we’re going to learn plenty in the next two years — whether his stimulus helps end the recession or prolongs it, whether his health care “reform” improves care or makes it worse, whether his foreign policy focus gets results in Afganistan, Iran, etc. and whether he can control the deficit. THOSE are the issues the American people care about. Not this birther crap you evidently don’t even believe yourself but are hell bent on pushing anyway — all THAT will accomplish is giving Obama an easy out in responding to you when you cite to all his failings in 2012.

    Sean P (579fd6)

  236. What does imdw even mean by satisfied?

    Satisfied? Of course I’m not! Obama has paid out millions and accepted a significant political cost instead of releasing this long form document. That’s a lot like Kerry’s Form 180. I just want to know what he’s hiding. I mean, Obama has hidden all kinds of things.

    That doesn’t make me a birther, since I think he was born in Hawaii. But I don’t accept Snopes and I’m not satisfied with Obama’s disclosure. imdw wants to shut down any inquiry into the document. Doing so by insulting everyone really gets to the heart of the matter: he has no evidence at all. Even Snopes’s documents are flaky at best. Since imdw calls people who think Obama was born in Hawaii ‘birther’, it’s safe to say he has no credibility on this subject.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  237. Sean, his campaign didn’t merely say he was eligible. They said he was born in Hawaii. So yes, if he was born in Kenya and they hid that, that’s egregious fraud. It would be tremendous. You’re talking about a massive conspiracy involving state officials, legal filings, and many candidacy forms. You’re talking about a forged certificate.

    If he was born in Kenya, which I highly doubt, the mere fact that he’s still eligible under some theories doesn’t save him. This is so patently basic that it’s hard to take seriously those who don’t get it.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  238. Sean, you say ‘they already did’. no they didn’t.

    You don’t even know what form I’m talking about, and are just obsessed with telling people to stop asking questions. Sorry, we get to ask questions for as long as we want. If Obama ever does authorize the public to a full examination of whatever birth records exist of him, we’ll want to know more still, and you’ll still tell us to shut up.

    You say I’m hell bent on pushing birther theories, despite realizing they are wrong. You miss the entire point. I am hell bent on learning as much as possible about Obama, despite some people wanting to learn as much as possible in pursuit of a theory I realize is literally ridiculous. I am after disclosure and information about someone who has had tremendous secrecy and lies surround him. Someone who has had state level officials lie repeatedly, attack citizens, and otherwise protect. I believe that snopes’s document was verified by an anonymous state official… that’s not proof in this era, sadly (though there’s a lot of context that makes it really hard to believe Obama isn’t Hawaiian).

    I admit I don’t really even care that much about this particular bit of information. But the basic principle is consistent: I want to know it all about this guy. The people have the right to keep asking and asking. It’s that basic principle that’s important.

    The idea that this is going to help Obama get reelected is weak.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  239. all usual caveats I’ve given aside,

    (and apologies for another consecutive comment)

    I read Obama’s two books, and distinctly recall reading about his original birth certificate, I think in Dreams. Also, I thought I read that an official had seen the original, bona fide, 40 some odd year old document.

    That’s the one that people are freaking out to see. Consider the ridiculous for a second: what if Obama was born in Kenya? Would some bureaucrat in Hawaii enter data into a database so that a printout would reflect that he was born in Hawaii? If that’s possible, then the birthers are going to need to see the actual original thing, and this issue will probably never be resolved (if it’s really so bad it has been destroyed).

    I think there’s something truly unfair about this: Obama was obviously not at fault for whatever is on his birth certificate… he was a baby. He could simply not have it, or there could be something politically damaging on it, but I don’t see how there’s something on there that I could hold against him (except if he lied about it later).

    This is a reflection of mistrust of our government, and that’s completely rightful. People can ask for this stuff, because the presidency is a serious thing. This is part of the deal, in my opinion, if you want to be president. W’s DD-214, Reagan’s SAG work, Clinton’s mistresses. We have a right to ask. Obama is public property as far as I’m concerned.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  240. Who gives a flying fuck what the debates on the Fourteenth Amendment were. The debates are not law. The Amendment is law.

    You Ron Paul clowns have a consistent habit of citing dissent to the law as law. It’s not only annoying, it’s ridiculous.

    Comment by nk — 12/4/2009 @ 7:22 pm

    The intentions are most important. The votes to ratify the thing came based on the explanations of what effect the amendment would have.

    j curtis (5126e4)

  241. #234 Dustin:

    That’s what this is about.

    No, Dustin, it isn’t.

    The whole birther thing is a drive to find some deus ex machina with which to defeat the AntiChrist.

    As Ag80, nk, myself, and a host of others have pointed out~there really is not any legitimate doubt of the O!ne’s citizenship, nor his eligibility to be elected to the Presidency.

    In the first case, simply by virtue of the citizenship of the Obamunist’s mama. In the second, even disregarding his citizenship, the campaign is over: the votes cast, a president sworn in…ipso facto he was eligible. And there isn’t anybody with the authority to go back in time and “rule” him ineligible.

    Therefore, a reasonably prudent person would look for other avenues to oppose this President if they were unhappy with his policies or the size of his ego ears.

    Consider the ridiculous for a second: what if Obama was born in Kenya? Would some bureaucrat in Hawaii enter data into a database so that a printout would reflect that he was born in Hawaii? If that’s possible, then the birthers are going to need to see the actual original thing, and this issue will probably never be resolved (if it’s really so bad it has been destroyed).

    Let’s face it, I am not in the least interested in the ridiculous…because it is, well, RIDICULOUS!

    Secondly, I don’t care if the issue is as clear as mud to someone fixated on a deus ex machina solution: they are a very, very small portion of the population as a whole (although vocal).

    My feeling, and the feeling of a majority of eligible voters is, stop wasting my time with a bunch of whiny ass bullshit and propose solutions.

    Not pie in the sky sleight of hand that won’t affect anything anyway.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  242. “What does imdw even mean by satisfied?

    Satisfied? Of course I’m not! ”

    If you know you’re not satisfied, then you know what I mean.

    imdw (c06324)

  243. “. . .what is it about Sarah Palin and the whole birther notion that drives everybody crazy?”

    Because they are the two things that scare the Left the most.

    Official Internet Data Office (c4e07b)

  244. [...] a reaction in the post asking whether Sarah Palin is a Birther. Ace thinks Birtherism is stupid but has no problem with Palin’s “empty” answer; [...]

    Patterico's Pontifications » Maybe Palin Isn’t a Birther, But She Sure as Hell Was Pandering to Them (e4ab32)

  245. [...] a reaction in the post asking whether Sarah Palin is a Birther. Ace thinks Birtherism is stupid but has no problem with Palin’s “empty” answer; [...]

    Patterico's Pontifications » Maybe Palin Isn’t a Birther, But She Sure as Hell Was Pandering to Them (e4ab32)

  246. Allahpundit casually remarked about a month ago on Hot Air that he was an “alumnus” (his term) of Mother Jones magazine. Draw your own conclusions.

    I have just drawn my conclusion, Official Internet Data Office, and my conclusion is that you are either making that up, or badly mistaken.

    Prove it or retract it, please.

    Patterico (64318f)

  247. You are correct, Patterico. I am mistaken. I retract the statement. Allahpundit did not state that he was an alumnus of Mother Jones magazine.

    But you already knew that. (The seasoned attorney never asks a question unless he already knows the answer.)

    But I did not make it up. I read something too quickly. Here is the blog post by Allahpundit from Hot Air on October 8, 2009 where someone reveals that he’s an alumnus of Mother Jones magazine. But Allahpundit is not stating that about himself; he’s quoting somebody else in a blockquote–namely, Michael Scherer from Time magazine. Scherer says that both Major Garrett of FOX and himself are alumni of Mother Jones magazine.

    Official Internet Data Office (c4e07b)

  248. My error was reinforced because I also happened to read this comment on the comment thread to that post:

    Allahpundit and Mother Jones….who’d a thought it.
    GarandFan on October 8, 2009 at 9:14 PM

    Apparently, this guy also mistakenly thought that Allahpundit was the alumnus of Mother Jones magazine, when he is not.

    I apologize for any incovenience this may have caused.

    Official Internet Data Office (c4e07b)

  249. And now I will apply for that job as the Los Angeles Times’ new Readers’ Representative.

    Official Internet Data Office (c4e07b)

  250. This is stupid. I IS FAIR GAME TO QUESTION THE BIRTH CIRTIFICATE as it is fair game to question any public figure about anthing in his past, simply provide the document and let it go. Now, if, after Oboma provides the proof (as he has, a certification by the proper offical in Hawaii is good enoutht for me), then to CONTINUTE to press the issue makes you a nut. Sarah Palin not only never used the issue BEFORE or DURING the last campagain, she is not using it now. So what the hey? All she said was the people had a “right” to ask a question, which was “fair” game. Lets move on here, I want to know if during Obomba’s “hidden” two years at Coloumbia, he knew, was friends with, or worked with Bill Aires, who was going to school at the Coloumba School of Education at the same time and appairently lived within six blocks of Oboma.

    Ralph Volpi (19d3e5)

  251. j curtis,

    I owe you an apology. You were right and I was wrong. The Supreme Court did hold in 1872 that Indians born on reservations were not U.S. citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment and it was necessary to pass the Indian Naturalization Act of 1924 to kind of fix the problem. Actually, I had learned that but had forgotten it. I apologize.

    nk (df76d4)

  252. j. Curtis

    > If a nation did have the same laws, we would be faced with a constitutional crisis

    This argument is so retarded it is not funny. The constitution grants him citizenship by birth because he was born in America. And no other nation can take that away from him.

    I mean suppose instead in your hypothetical, Kenya passed a law that said, “Barrack Obama is hereby deprived of his citizenship IN AMERICA.” Would that deprive him of his citizenship? No. Why? Because it is for our nation to decide who is and isn’t a citizen, not any other’s.

    But you would not follow that rule. You would allow Kenya to take away the citizenship rights of Americans.

    As for your theory that Obama could be the president of two countries at once, I direct you to Art. I Sec. 9, paragraph 8. For someone who claims to upholding the constitution, you don’t know much about it.

    > That is the opposite of the loyalty requirements envisioned by the original founders and the 14 amendment founders.

    Except the founders of the 14th A didn’t require a loyalty oath to become president.

    > The phrase, “subject to its jurisdiction” was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.

    Um, only if those persons had diplomatic immunity. Thus they are not subject to the United States jurisdiction. Believe you me, the view a man can be denied by legal bullsh—from being a citizen of the United States is more in line with the major precedent on the subject BEFORE the 14th A was ratified: the Dredd Scott case. But as anyone who knows history knows, Dredd Scott was not only overturned, but was considered wrongly decided.

    As for the slaughterhouse case citation, first, I don’t see a word in the court’s opinion on the subject. http://www.civil-liberties.com/cases/slauterhouse.html

    And I might add that this is considered dead letter law, because it said that the bill of rights was not incorporated to the states. And indeed, the supreme court has shown interest in resurrecting the privileges and immunities argument that slaughterhouse rejected.

    > It is far fetched to believe that Jay was including dual citizens.

    Its far fetched to say that dual citizenship was on his mind at all, nor the possibility of a foreign power trying to take away a man’s birthright as an American citizen.

    > The intentions are most important

    Only to the extent that they illuminate the language, not to the extent that they add things not written. You keep on claiming that the framers feel this, and feel that. I am pretty familiar with them and I have heard nothing of the sort. And I know historically people have done crazy things like cite what the opposition says about the amendment to reconstruct its intent. So I am going to have to ask for proof. And hint, hint, john jay doesn’t count.

    [note: released from moderation filter. --Stashiu]

    A.W. (e7d72e)


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