Patterico's Pontifications

11/30/2009

Jeez. Now the “See No Evil Hear No Evil” Monkeys Are “Racist” Too . . .

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 10:05 pm

Think Progress says that the following ad by some idiot Birthers is racist:

SeeHearSpeak

Charles Johnson agrees:

This isn’t even “dog whistle” racism. It’s right in your face, poking you in the eye.

Really?

Is it racist? It’s not impossible that it is. I’d have to know more about the context. For example, to take one of many aspects of the analysis, one might ask: is this particular group prone to making racist attacks on Obama?

An ad like that will look different coming from the KKK than it might coming from Alan Keyes. It’s stupid either way — but racist? Depends.

But any discussion of the topic must necessarily take account of the well-known fact that “See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” is a concept that is inextricably intertwined with the famous images of the three monkeys. And conservatives can’t allow themselves to be cowed into not using that image, when it’s appropriate, just because some leftist might call it racism.

And so, as stupid as Birtherism is, we can’t bow to an outfit like Think Progress, whose level of “analysis” begins and ends with: “President black” + “monkey image used” = RACISM! This much is clear.

It’s a bit like the “analysis” provided in this SEK post accusing Dan Riehl of racism because he railed about ACORN in the following manner:

Breitbart’s video busts told us what they do best. The pathetic part in all this is that they were not just allowed, but encouraged to run wild on taxpayer funding by corrupt liberals, including Obama. They should all hang together if you ask me.

To which SEK responded:

[T]he fact that the first metaphor that occurs to him when criticizing blacks is a hanging party tells us that when he disagrees with blacks, he couches his disagreement in terms of stretched necks and strangled bodies. People for whom that is an instinctive response are people who are racists.

Or maybe they are simply invoking the well-known phrase about hanging together. I’m not saying it’s used appropriately; it’s more like it’s a cliche. But when you are going to assert, as a blanket matter, that any reference to “hanging” is racist when the people you’re talking about happen to be black, then you’re just being silly.

Getting back to those monkeys, allow me to present a couple more “racist” images:

Racist Monkeys 1

Racist Monkeys 2

Here’s the bottom line, lefties: if you guys get to use the monkeys when they make your point, then so do we — even if the target is black. We’re not bowing to your little accusations of racism any more.

We’re just tired of it. And you don’t get to decide this stuff on your own any more.

280 Responses to “Jeez. Now the “See No Evil Hear No Evil” Monkeys Are “Racist” Too . . .”

  1. If they used apples in their example, the left would still cry racist.

    o can’t be racist. michelle can’t be racist. wright can’t be racist. jesse can’t be racist. byrd can’t be racist. Only r’s and conservatives can be racists.

    Jim (582155)

  2. unless they are black Republicans or conservatives, in which case they are Uncle Tom’s or just “not black”.

    BTW: i hereby denounce Jim, Patterico and myself, as well as anyone else who follows up on this thread as racists, just to save a whole lot of time & trouble.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  3. I thought the same thing when I saw this story. Monkeys are the typical animals for this “see no evil” expression.

    carlitos (580df1)

  4. #3: because they act so much like humans…..

    (or vice versa. %-)

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  5. Patterico wrote:

    “…But when you are going to assert, as a blanket matter, that any reference to “hanging” is racist when the people you’re talking about happen to be black, then you’re just being silly…”

    Actually, sir, with respect: I disagree. It’s not merely silly. It’s intentionally corrosive toward discourse that differs from the person making the spurious and dishonest claim of racism.

    Which is the point: such language is intended specifically to cut off discussion and demonize the opponent.

    Eric Blair (bc43a4)

  6. Remember, folks, calling NYC “hymietown” is not, I repeat NOT racist.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  7. You might want to review the ‘Taylor on trial’ segment from the 1968 sc-fi flick, “Planet Of The Apes.” Same hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil reference in the film. But then, as Heston’s dialogue goes, “Some apes, it seems, are more equal than others.”

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  8. maybe Think Progress was just monkeying around with the birthers?

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  9. We’re just tired of it. And you don’t get to decide this stuff on your own any more

    I sense a grievance, an issue, an open sore perhaps or a need for righting some sort of “perceived wrong.”

    Hmmm..that’s interesting.

    Who cares about those stupid monkeys anyway, as long as no harm is being done to them (real or as a cartoon joke…ahem).

    I, as an ACLU card carrying Liberal/Progressive in good standing absolve you one and all: Et ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis in nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti etc…etc….

    Now, go talk to someone about that chip on your (collective) shoulder(s).

    Assclown Pumpkinheads (217cf1)

  10. Something’s wrong with my monitor. I see a comment 9 and a whole lot of blank space.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  11. Actually, sir, with respect: I disagree. It’s not merely silly. It’s intentionally corrosive toward discourse that differs from the person making the spurious and dishonest claim of racism.

    Which is the point: such language is intended specifically to cut off discussion and demonize the opponent.

    Well, “just being silly” was just a figure of speech, but I want to compliment you on your comment nonetheless, which was well said.

    What I especially like about it is that you expressed the idea simply (no “referents” terminology necessary!), and that you wouldn’t employ a double standard towards the left (as in the old “intentionalism nose on, intentionalism nose off” dodge).

    I know that you’re talking about principles that you wouldn’t modify depending on the politics of the speaker. That makes your articulation different and more powerful than those of some of the frauds out there.

    Nicely said.

    Patterico (64318f)

  12. If calling Congress, the courts and the media a bunch of chimps makes one a racist…then I’m a racist…and proud of it.

    I hope no chimpanzees are offended.

    Dave Surls (7fad31)

  13. I have one thing to say about all the liberals piling on with all these false charges of racism:

    Monkey see, monkey do.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  14. 10. Something’s right with my monitor. I see a comment 9 and a whole lot of blank space.

    Comment by John Hitchcock — 11/30/2009 @ 10:43 pm

    FTFY!! %-)

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  15. Patterico,

    You seem to advocate in this post that this ad is only racist if those who created it intended it as such – otherwise, it’s not racism. I disagree. I think that the comparison of black people to apes is a well-known, racist archetype, and thus, thanks to America’s racist heritage, racism is subtly perpetuated even when those who make this comparison do so unintentionally.

    America’s legacy of racism in the form of slavery, lynching, Jim Crow, and segregation in this country has left behind a residue that is still with us today, like it or not. Since comparing black people to apes is a well-known racist stereotype throughout our history, whenever such a comparison is made – intentionally or not – it evokes and sustains this racist heritage.

    Though it hardly seems fair, benign intentions don’t excuse our participation in racist archetypes. Rather, it is incumbent upon those who want to live in a racially just society to take responsibility for our words and actions, and to recognize that they sometimes have consequences beyond simply what we intend.

    One final note: this is not a double-standard. It would be a double-standard only if there were no well-known, racist black people/apes stereotype to begin with. In this society, it is simply the case that comparing black people to apes means something different than comparing white people to apes.

    Tom (69f10e)

  16. I don’t know, Patterico, but you might be chiding me. Apologies if that was necessary; such was not my intention. Or I may be misreading you.

    I admit to great sensitivity regarding people being bludgeoned with accusations of racism. To me, it is like “fascist”: a word often used by a person to insult another, not as a descriptor of political beliefs.

    A few years ago, when I was new to my campus, I went to a “new faculty” retreat. It was held in a botanical garden. The directions were confusing. Four men in coveralls came running up to my car, asking me where I was going. I explained and they gave me proper directions.

    About an hour later, another faculty member who happens to be African American had precisely the same thing happen to him. He was furious, and was certain he was being profiled. In fact, he gave an impromptu talk on that subject at the faculty retreat.

    I knew better than to say a word.

    And the workers in coveralls? Hispanic. I’m just saying.

    Eric Blair (bc43a4)

  17. So…Tom. Anything you care to say about stereotypes in the African American community? Benign or otherwise? Or are those stereotypes the fault of white Americans, too?

    I smell another academic.

    Eric Blair (bc43a4)

  18. Eric, I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Care to enlighten me?

    Tom (69f10e)

  19. Hey, Tom! Liberals are racists (and that would include Democrats). And to avoid an old adage (with image) just to bend over backward for someone else who hears dog-whistles isn’t going to cut it. If you want to see racism in it, that’s your fault. Not the fault of the person who used it.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  20. Hey John! Thanks for pimping your blog. I’ll check it out next time I’m looking for a diversion (but for now I’ll stick to the topic at hand).

    Also, betcha a thousand bucks that the guy who said this:

    If you want to see racism in it, that’s your fault. Not the fault of the person who used it.

    has white privilege. (Takes one to know one!)

    Tom (69f10e)

  21. Yup, the racist liberal who doesn’t want to link-surf to see facts. He has his own agenda, the facts be darned.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  22. “it is simply the case that comparing black people to apes means something different than comparing white people to apes.”

    Luckily, Congress, the Courts and the Media are largely lily white, so we can call them dumbass monkeys to our heart’s content.

    Dave Surls (7fad31)

  23. Here, Tom, I’ll help you out. Can you spot the racists here?

    SomeNYGuy said,
    February 28, 2009 at 8:29
    Actually, it is a bit humorous to hear people calling me a racist, considering my heritage.
    Being related to Michael Steele, Alan Keyes or Juan Williams doesn’t count.

    Clarence Thomas said, (note the name-switch I saw frequently on this site)
    February 28, 2009 at 8:31
    I have nothing against niggers; I just wouldn’t want to marry one.

    You Can’t Put Lipstick On A Repig said,
    February 28, 2009 at 8:32
    Being related to Michael Steele, Alan Keyes or Juan Williams doesn’t count.
    These guys never get their hands shook at GOP functions and still can’t figure out why.

    SomeNYGuy said,
    February 28, 2009 at 8:37
    TBD, look up the word “kapo” re: concentration camps. Some cowards will do anything, even turn on their own, if they think they’ll get preferential treatment from those in power.

    Cerberus said,
    February 28, 2009 at 8:38
    That’s impossible, the space brain surely can solve the mystery that belies FYWP.
    Hell, I bet wordpress is like an easily shattered Matrix to the space brains of Conservatism. Only through focus can they see the patterns of blacks and Jews that plot behind the wordpress format.
    Wolverines!

    Truth Before Dishonor said,
    February 28, 2009 at 8:43
    So, snyg, you are indeed calling any non-white people who vote Republican race-traitors? How tolerant of you.

    SomeNYGuy said,
    February 28, 2009 at 8:46
    So, snyg, you are indeed calling any non-white people who vote Republican race-traitors?
    In the current political climate? Unequivocally, yes.

    And can you tell me if they are liberals or conservatives?

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  24. John, in my view, the existence of racist liberals and Democrats is beyond obvious. I’m not disputing that, and I don’t argue otherwise in my post above.

    When we – any of us – participate in racist archetypes, intentionally or not, we perpetuate racism. Thus, if we don’t want to perpetuate racism, we should avoid doing so when possible, and stop doing it when we realize we’re in it unintentionally.

    Tom (69f10e)

  25. When the Church is foursquare against something and some political party makes politics of it, the Church should just shut up about it because it’s now politics.

    When an age-old adage, complete with sculptures, suddenly becomes racist, everyone needs to quit using it.

    Hogwash on both counts.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  26. It would be a double-standard only if there were no well-known, racist black people/apes stereotype to begin with.

    so, well known racist black people can be stereotyped, but not regular black people?

    that might be part of the problem, since most of the regular folks i know who happen to be black are decent people, but the so called “leadership” in the African-American community have more than their share of self announced bigots…. could you please clarify this policy for the rest of us?

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  27. And, EB, your sense of smell was dead-rat on. I say throw the academics out of the country, every single one of them. Ya know?

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  28. Ah, Tom. I get it: you are an ethnocrat.

    And here is the thing. You will always find racism, no matter what. Right? Even when the person doesn’t know they are racist, they really are.

    Because you can tell.

    Doesn’t that worry you?

    In fact, how do you know you aren’t racist? And if you do know that, why are you posting about it? Doesn’t that make all of your argumentation suspect?

    Do have a prejudice-free evening, okay?

    Eric Blair (bc43a4)

  29. #24: what happens if we are using terms in a non-racist manner that others choose to see as racist? are we supposed to allow our speech to be hijacked for their agenda, effectively robbing us of our voice to their ends?

    why not simply move beyond racism, and leave the claims of it to those who would wallow in the filth forever? Ear Leader was supposed to be the “post-racial” president, but any criticism of him is decried as racist from jump street.

    on November 4, 2008, dissent went from being the highest form of patriotism to racism overnight.

    i call bullshit.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  30. Sometimes a cigar is really a cigar.
    Sometimes a raccoon is really a raccoon.
    Sometimes a monkey is really a monkey.
    Sometimes a yellow-bellied lilly-livered sap-sucker is really a yellow-bellied lilly-livered sap-sucker.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  31. Chimpanzees aren’t monkeys. They’re apes.

    Given your usual precision, Patterico, this alone disappoints me.

    LYT (b1d1e2)

  32. Apes are monkeys in my book, but then again, I’m no ethnobiologist. 😉

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  33. Eric, your points are good, and if you made them to me about eight years ago, you would have had me pegged, no doubt, but I don’t think they fit as well as you assume today.

    Ah, Tom. I get it: you are an ethnocrat.

    I don’t know what an “ethnocrat” is, so I won’t comment on that.

    And here is the thing. You will always find racism, no matter what. Right? Even when the person doesn’t know they are racist, they really are.

    As a white American, I feel that I’m able to recognize certain forms of racism when I see it, yes. Aren’t you?

    Also, I hope you’ll note that I’m not calling people racist. I’m talking about racist archetypes, in which people are participating. I don’t believe that people are racist, so much as that we often perpetuate racism.

    Because you can tell.

    Seems you think I’m being judgmental. I am fairly judgmental, so that’s not far off, but I don’t think I’ve said anything unfair or unwarranted in my posts here.

    In fact, how do you know you aren’t racist? And if you do know that, why are you posting about it?

    I do participate in racism: I’m a white, middle-class guy in America. I benefit from such privilege accordingly. And I’m posting because I believe that we are not living in a society free of racism yet, and thus I feel I should be concerned about that, instead of using my privilege to escape these concerns (which is one of its main functions).

    Doesn’t that make all of your argumentation suspect?

    I like this question, because I ask myself this all the time (especially these days when I’m trying to stand on the shoulders of giants and say something meaningful about theology). Actually, I think all human argumentation is ultimately suspect, or at least imperfect, and thus must be considered in the context of who is the author. Accordingly, I don’t think that the things I say are necessarily suspect, so long as they are taken in the context of who I am and where I’m coming from.

    Do have a prejudice-free evening, okay?

    I’ll certainly try. Goodnight.

    Tom (69f10e)

  34. John, in retrospect, my response to you above (#20) was rather douchey. I apologize for shooting my ‘mouth’ off like that. Peace –

    Tom (69f10e)

  35. Well, I guess that it would be racist to say that all of Obama’s campaign promises have fallen into a black hole. Or that the current White House releases unflattering information on Fridays, even Black Friday.

    But it isn’t racist to say that Obama’s foreign policy is a dogs breakfast. Or that he is proving to be dumb as a stump when it comes to bowing. Or that Obama is like a mule stuck between two piles of hay: he just can’t make up his mind. Or, like Freud once said, sometimes a silent, blind and deaf monkey is only a monkey.

    And I guess when it comes to kids playing in a jungle gym, it is only the White, Spanish, Asian kids who play in it like monkeys. Obama’s kids? Well, they are not allowed to do that.

    Who knows what the liberal press might say.

    jack (e383ed)

  36. As a white American, I feel that I’m able to recognize certain forms of racism when I see it, yes. Aren’t you?

    yes, i am. also, i have, over the years, been repeatedly robbed, beaten, abused, and denied promotions, among other indignities, simply because i was white in various environments here in California where the local dominant population/culture was not. where is my restraining order? where is my outburst of concern? isn’t all racism bad?

    there are many places in SoCal today, where you, i, or any other white person, should they suddenly be deposited in the locale, would become the victim of one or more race motivated crimes within a short period of time. the same could be said for every other identifiable ethnotype.

    that doesn’t even include the parts of town where one or another gang has decided to ethnically cleanse their turf, killing off law abiding citizens to do so.

    you are so busy with bullshit calls of racism, that the real problem continues under your nose, with you as one of the major causes.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  37. “When we – any of us – participate in racist archetypes, intentionally or not, we perpetuate racism.”

    Oh, spare me.

    Liberals are drooling baboons. White liberals are drooling baboons, black liberals are drooling baboons, red liberals are drooling baboons, yellow liberals are drooling baboons, and if there were blue liberals, they’d be drooling baboons too.

    Pointing out that liberals are drooling baboons does not perpetuate racism. It hurts the feelings of baboons, but they’ll get over it.

    Quit being so hyper-sensitive, and deal with the facts of life. Liberals are basically apes, just a little less furry, and not quite as intelligent.

    Dave Surls (7fad31)

  38. I agree the chimps in that image don’t necessarily stem from racism. The reason liberals accuse you guys of racism is that it’s otherwise hard to understand the intensity of your animosity towards the President.

    mikeb302000 (6127bb)

  39. “The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.”
    Chief Justice Roberts

    AD - RtR/OS! (eab8f3)

  40. Comment by mikeb302000 — 12/1/2009 @ 12:56 am

    Yes, it couldn’t have anything to do with the evil that he is doing to the free-market system that has provided advancement for millions, or his backtracking overseas on America’s committment to individual liberty and freedom, or the fact that he’s an ignorant socialist.

    It must be racism!

    AD - RtR/OS! (eab8f3)

  41. Tom – perhaps it might help to accept that we are all of the same race – the Human race …

    Some of us choose not to be niggardly in our work towards when Martin Luther King’s words can be achieved as the norm, when we can be human, not merely racist … when we see an image of someone being lynched, we see an injustice to an individual, not racism … when we hear the word “black”, we think of colour, pigment, lack of light, oh, and, oh yes, an archaic descriptor of a fellow human …

    A question for you, Tom … are you in favour of medical studies with Primates as subjects ?

    Alasdair (205079)

  42. Would this be a bad time to refer to the president as our Chimpanzee-in-Feces?

    Icy Texan (fe9d68)

  43. The reason liberals accuse you guys of racism is that it’s otherwise hard to understand the intensity of your animosity towards the President. – mikeb302000, 12/1/2009 @ 12:56 am

    The reason it’s hard for you to understand, Mike, is because when you hear the real reasons (opposition to his policies, not wanting to see a government takeover of 1/6th of the American economy, and so on), you dismiss them. “That can’t be the real reason,” you think, “so it must be racism.” Sadly, you’re wrong — the opposition to ObamaCare would be just as strong if Clinton had won and it were HilaryCare we were talking about, or even if, say, Howard Dean had won the nomination and proposed a similar health-care bill.

    I realize you won’t believe me, but we truly are judging the president on the content of his character (and his policies), and not on the color of his skin.

    Robin Munn (8e0981)

  44. Icy Texan: Yes, it would be a bad time. Anytime would be a bad time for that remark. Disagree with the President’s policies all you like, but calling him such insulting names as that is beyond the pale. Call him a socialist, fine. Call him what you just called him (I won’t repeat it), you’re WAY past the line of civilized speech.

    I don’t care who the President is — Clinton, Bush, Obama, whoever — what you just said is wrong. You, sir, owe us an apology.

    Robin Munn (8e0981)

  45. re: #9
    — Ah, yes. The typical “we got caught playing the card when we shouldn’t have; move along . . . move along,” ploy.

    Pay no attention to the race-baiting liberal behind the curtain, kiddies!

    Icy Texan (fe9d68)

  46. Robin Munn, IT forgot to close the snark tag is all.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  47. I hate when people have androgenous names, like Dana. I never know whether to call them MR or MS. Those names should be illegal.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  48. Re: #43
    Perhaps you haven’t visited this blog for awhile, Robin Munn. Know this: I have used that designation for Ear Leader, Teh One, or whatever less-caustic sobriquet others have chosen to label him with, for the past 7 weeks now. This began when it first became apparent that The Man Who Voted ‘Present’ was going to waffle on his Afghanistan policy for as long as he thought he could get away with it. Not un-coincidentally, my 19-year-old nephew was deployed to Afghanistan at the same time. I chose to use the spoonerism(?) Chimpanzee-in-Feces to mock his position as Commander-in-Chief because in my opinion his waffling put my family member’s life at greater risk than it already was.

    If you choose to jump on the libby bandwagon of citing any reference to President Obama and a primate in the same article, advertisement, blog posting, zip code — et cetera — as being racist in intent, that’s your hang-up. I am referring to our president’s behavior . . . to his actions, and to the terrible consequences of his inaction on certain matters. I am saying that he might as well be a chimp flinging its dung about its cage for all the good some of his policy decisions are doing this nation.

    Oh yeah, and he’s a Socialist, too.

    Icy Texan (fe9d68)

  49. One would like to think that Charlie has a bit of a drinking problem…….it would explain so much. Unfortunately, I have serious doubts that Charlie can even afford a drinking problem……..

    Roscoe (d294d6)

  50. IT: You’re right that I haven’t visited the comments section of Patterico’s blog in a while. Had I seen your term earlier, I would have objected to it earlier.

    I didn’t say your comment was racist, because I don’t think it’s racist. I would have objected in similar terms had Hilary Clinton or John McCain won the election: I think your term insulting to the office of President. Even if his policies are terrible, there’s a line that ought not to be crossed.

    (My objection is not so much to the chimpanzee comparison as to the feces-flinging part. That’s the part that crosses the line, IMHO).

    Basically, it’s a similar principle to “salute the uniform, not the man.” No matter how much harm the current office-holder is doing, some terms disrespect not merely the man (or woman) holding the office, but go so far as to disrespect the office itself.

    Robin Munn (8e0981)

  51. … Although if McCain had won the election, I don’t think he’d have been waffling on Afghanistan, so perhaps the point is moot in that particular hypothetical. :-)

    Robin Munn (8e0981)

  52. re: #49

    Fair enough; you didn’t think I was being racist. Good!

    Even if his policies are terrible, there’s a line that ought not to be crossed.
    — What line is that, Robin? The Free Speech line?

    Basically, it’s a similar principle to “salute the uniform, not the man.” No matter how much harm the current office-holder is doing, some terms disrespect not merely the man (or woman) holding the office, but go so far as to disrespect the office itself.
    — If I am ever lucky enough to meet our president in-person, I will firmly shake his hand, make eye contact, and wish him well. HOWEVER, i will not mollify myself with thoughts of, “he’s doing his best, cut him some slack”. This man is an un-repentant Socialist that is doing harm to our republic.

    Icy Texan (fe9d68)

  53. What line is that, Robin? The Free Speech line?
    The bit about throwing feces was what bothered me, actually. I guess you could call that the “bodily functions” line if you need to put a name on it. :-) I’ve got no problems at all with calling the president’s judgment into question, saying he’s a socialist, and so on. I just don’t think names that involve bodily functions are worthy of the office.

    And I’m not saying we should cut Obama slack. Not in the least. We should criticize his policies — vehemently — when they cause harm to our nation, as his waffling in Afghanistan does (and as ObamaCare will if it passes). Let’s keep the criticism at an adult level of vocabularly, though — there’s a reason fourteen-year-olds aren’t allowed to vote. :-)

    Incidentally, I know what I’m doing up at this ungodly hour of the morning — I went to bed far too early last night, so I woke up at 3:00 AM this morning. But what are you doing up this early (or this late)?

    Robin Munn (8e0981)

  54. Vocabulary, not “vocabularly”. My fingers have gotten too used to typing adverbs, I guess.

    Robin Munn (8e0981)

  55. They’re right, no way clueless monkey should be allowed to be president.

    joe (238129)

  56. But what are you doing up this early (or this late)?

    … and it only just occurred to me that you may not be in a U.S. time zone. Considering the year I recently spent in West Africa, you’d think I would have thought of that earlier. *slaps forehead*

    Robin Munn (8e0981)

  57. Imagine that. A racist birther.

    imdw (8bd603)

  58. I used to be a big LGF fan. I got tired of his constant rants equating all Christians with seven-day creationists and attacking even mild skepticism of evolutionary dogma.

    Amphipolis (b120ce)

  59. “Think Progress says that the following ad by some idiot Birthers is racist:”

    I clicked the link and all that the post said was that the ad “featur[ed] racial undertones.” Was there something else that led you to conclude this is the same as “racist” or are you just lying?

    imdw (4fe3dc)

  60. Eric, I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Care to enlighten me?

    Comment by Tom

    Tom, you are, based on your comments, incapable of enlightenment. I suspect you have been paying attention during the “Whiteness Studies” classes in college. Too bad.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  61. Gotta love those undertones. Too bad the same standard isn’t applied to news anchors’ alternate tea bag innuendos.

    Amphipolis (b120ce)

  62. SEK appears to be running his own cottage industry where he doesn’t accuse people of racism while accusing them of racism. Imdw subscribes to the same school of thought.

    Tom means well. He feels what he says. He is just willing to hijack language and meaning from you, as ascribe intention and motive not at all intended.

    Birthers suck.

    JD (f67b76)

  63. Tom

    > You seem to advocate in this post that this ad is only racist if those who created it intended it as such – otherwise, it’s not racism. I disagree.

    Ah, so if Martin Luther King Jr. himself had written it, it is nonetheless racist? How about merely if the author was black? Indeed, do you know the skin color of the author?

    > I think that the comparison of black people to apes is a well-known, racist archetype, and thus, thanks to America’s racist heritage, racism is subtly perpetuated even when those who make this comparison do so unintentionally.

    Got that? For the rest of history, you can’t make any reference to apes on any subject tangentially related to black people. Never mind that this ad is literally comparing the majority white congress, majority-white media and majority-white court system to apes. Nope, because they are being apes on the subject related to a black man, it is racist.

    And I dispute that it is a well-known racist archetype. To the extent it is known at all in today’s society it is largely because of knuckleheads like you. If you stopped claiming every use of a monkey is racist then pretty soon no one would remember anyone ever associated black people with monkeys.

    I mean for instance, everyone here at this forum probably knows that there is some kind of stereotypical association between fried chicken and black people. But raise your hand if you have any idea WHY this is the case. I know intellectually white people used to make fun of black people for that, but I would be f—ed if I know why. I mean, fried chicken is good. So why is it somehow a source of hate?

    I don’t get it. I would bet the majority of us here don’t get it. And I am glad I don’t get it. It says I am beyond race. But liberals like you can’t get beyond race, so you try your best to keep the rest of us from moving on.

    I am reminded of an episode of south park where they were debating the south park flag, which showed 4 white guys lynching a black guy. And it turns out that the kids literally don’t get it at all. They looked at the four people on the flag and assigned no significance to their skin color. And Chef rightly says this is a beautiful thing.

    Shouldn’t we get to a point where we no longer “get” these things? Shouldn’t we be so beyond race that we stop bringing this crap up all the time with no good reason?

    But no, the race hustlers like you won’t let that happen. Because the goal isn’t to end racism, but to continue the race hustle. In this particular case, it is in order to shut down debate.

    Not that there really is any debate over obama’s natural born citizenship. But that isn’t the goal, but instead the idea is to 1) claim all of the right are birthers, and 2) then claim that they are all racists, for it.

    Before the election I sadly concluded that America wasn’t ready for a black president. The reason why, however, was liberals. Liberals were not ready to neutrally evaluate a presidential candidate who happened to be black; that is why they elected Noobius Maximus, not because he was the best man for the job but because then they could feel that frisson of saying, “I am so over race, that I voted for the black man.” Of course, all that really proves is just how hung up the left still is over race. Anyone looking at the issue from a race neutral position would have realized that Obama v. McCain was a no brainer, even if I am not the biggest fan of McCain.

    And more over, before the election, I realized that if a liberal black man was president, liberals would pretend that every policy disagreement was somehow racially motivated. And that is what we have heard for the past 11 months now. Oh, you don’t like massive crushing debt, socialized medicine, graft and corruption? YOU RACIST. Don’t you know that all those people opposed to Obamacare are racists? I mean, never mind that in fact Obama is getting much further than Clinton, a Southern white boy, ever did. Even the reduced resistance to it is still RACIST, RACIST, RACIST!!!

    So I sadly concluded, we are not yet ready for a black president, not because the right can’t treat him as an equal, but because the left will cry “racist” if they do treat him as an equal.

    > As a white American, I feel that I’m able to recognize certain forms of racism when I see it, yes.

    You do realize that THAT is actually a racist statement, right?

    > I do participate in racism: I’m a white, middle-class guy in America.

    Well, then, extricate yourself asap by leaving the country. Please. Go away and bother another nation.

    I mean, sheesh, what pap. And indeed, what you said is so small minded on so many levels; its downright myopic. And I bet you have no idea why I say that.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  64. You seem to advocate in this post that this ad is only racist if those who created it intended it as such – otherwise, it’s not racism. I disagree. I think that the comparison of black people to apes is a well-known, racist archetype, and thus, thanks to America’s racist heritage, racism is subtly perpetuated even when those who make this comparison do so unintentionally.

    With due respect, Tom, that’s nonsense. The problem here is that the use of the (OK, LYT) apes has a well-known, non-racist component. By objecting to it as racist even when you concede that racism is not meant (for the sake of this argument), you’re creating a world where people can play “gotcha” with language not intended to offend. Here the problem lies with those aggrieved by the imagery.

    Now, if the perpetrators of the image are fully aware that their message will be perceived as racist, and deliberately choose this way of expressing it in part to stoke outrage — hiding behind the shield of the well-known image for plausible deniability — then you might have a point. But ultimately the question comes down to what they meant; otherwise you’re making people hostage to interpretations of their language that they never meant.

    Patterico (64318f)

  65. For the rest of history, you can’t make any reference to apes on any subject tangentially related to black people.

    Or Irishmen. Which I am one of, partly.

    Oh, sure, you think that’s small potatoes. But unless you’re a true Irishman, as I am, you have no say in the matter.

    Slartibartfast (60406d)

  66. SWIDT?

    Slartibartfast (60406d)

  67. I’m a woman (there, that is out of way)and I’m telling you obama is in one perpetual state of PMS, as is C. Johnson. Sheesh, how can you stand to be around, read, listen to these two?

    J (2946f2)

  68. I think it safe to say that if aliens came to earth
    with an attitude, they would call all of us (black, white, yellow, red, brown) “monkey boy”.

    With thanks to John Lithgow and apologies to “Buckaroo Bonzai”

    jack (e383ed)

  69. Patterico

    Btw, i have to wonder… did they maybe use this image not because they were racists but because they specifically hoped that liberals would start screeching like, well, monkeys that they were racist and thus give extra publicity to the birther movement.

    That said, I think i get the birthers. i don’t agree with them, but i get them. They are hoping for some kind of silver bullet to save them from the Godawful mess of an Obama presidency. Obama is the least qualified man to become president in the 20th or 21st centuries, the least qualified since Lincoln, and Lincoln at least had the virtue of having a steep learning curve. Lincoln made amatuer moves for a month. Obamatuer hour has stretched on for nearly a year. So its the dream that you can get the SC or someone to say, “whoops! there has been a mistake. he wasn’t supposed to be allowed to be president!” and sure, then that would just make Biden the president, but i guess they feel that literally anything would be better than obama.

    Oh, and i love that Charles Johnson has joined the race baiting. Sigh.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  70. We’ve now reached the point in this country where even the use of the word “black” in any context is deemed racist. The ladies of The View think the phrase “Black Friday” is racist.

    Rochf (ae9c58)

  71. This shit is not new. It is just more denial and desperation on the part of the left. The cannot believe people have legitimate criticisms of Obama and the agenda of the left and so they stretch like rubber bands to manufacture ludicrous accusations of other motives to delegitimize the criticism. We have seen this all before.

    Remember the hilarious claims of phallic symbols planted in the backgound of pictures of Obama’s European celebrity tour? What a bunch of race baiting children!!!!

    daleyrocks (718861)

  72. roch

    to be fair, whoopie goldberg actually knew what it meant, and corrected her liberal idiot friend.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  73. I do participate in racism: I’m a white, middle-class guy in America.

    Wow. Do you base this on your hatred for yourself, or on your hatred for others who happen to be white and middle-class in America?

    Rob Crawford (04f50f)

  74. Eric Blair:

    My praise of your comment #5 was absolutely sincere.

    Patterico (64318f)

  75. A.W.–how far have we sunk when Whoopie Goldberg has to point out “Black Friday” isn’t racist? Where was Joy Behar when they passed out common sense?

    Rochf (ae9c58)

  76. I do participate in racism

    Thanks for sharing, racist.

    Slartibartfast (60406d)

  77. Rom sez :

    I do participate in racism.

    That is all on you, Tom. Your racist self does not project onto everyone else.

    JD (c72acf)

  78. So I hear President Obama was on the cover of GQ magazine. Years ago I canceled my subscription because a writer compared the President to a monkey in an article on sleeve length. How could the President appear in such a racist magazine?

    tyree (9d7ff3)

  79. Rochf

    Well, let’s face it joy has been a moron for a long time. she ain’t exactly a weathervane for public opinion.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  80. Every single criticism or opposition to the administration will be cast as racism. We have to fight it at every turn to keep this trick of theirs from suppressing dissent.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  81. “SEK appears to be running his own cottage industry where he doesn’t accuse people of racism while accusing them of racism. Imdw subscribes to the same school of thought.”

    I don’t know if you’re familiar with intentionalism but an ad can feature racial undertones without the person intending racism.

    imdw (8bb494)

  82. imdw – The monkeys are labeled Congress, Courts, and Media. Explain how intentionalism leads you to the conclusion that there are racial undertones that refer to Barcky. This should be rich.

    JD (c72acf)

  83. What we have here is a small window into the leftist industry of denying that blacks and whites are different in some characteristics on average. There is something called the Bell Curve, also called Gaussian Distribution by those of us who took math. It means that there are smart people and dumb people and lots in between. Those curves do not exactly coincide or, as those of us who took math say, they are not congruent.

    I won’t say what those curves denote because I don’t want the race police knocking on my door but everybody knows the answer anyway.

    What the leftist race industry does is to try to hide the fact that they are not congruent. There are many ways to do it.

    1. They say that anyone who thinks that what I wrote above is true is a racist.
    2. They have destroyed the public school system in an effort to teach children that the curves are congruent (Without using big words like that). They do that by altering, or “race norming,” as it is called, objective tests of intelligence or aptitude. The SAT scores, for example, have been shifted by eliminating some questions that were “racist” and “re-norming” the scores. An SAT score of 1400 is not equivalent to a 1400 40 years ago.
    3. They have prevented employers from using IQ tests in hiring.
    4. This led to an over reliance on college degrees as a substitute for IQ. This, in turn, led to affirmative action in college admission.
    5. College admission didn’t work because many of these students failed.
    6. Failure was not an option so grade inflation has made college degrees useless as a proxy for IQ. The only degrees that matter anymore are in science and math. Business schools, when I was in college, were undergraduate majors and anyone could elect a business major. Now, business schools are either graduate level or they are semi-graduate, like U of Arizona, where the student has to apply after some undergraduate study for further screening.
    7. School teachers have become less competent and, when California spent a bunch of money on lowering class size a decade ago, the school districts required new teachers to take a test called CBEST. Many teachers failed this 8th grade level test and complained saying it was racist.
    8. College courses in things like English Composition use textbooks like this which teach “Whiteness Studies.” That is to train white college students in the new reality. They are not allowed to think the things I wrote above. Doubt me ? Read the reviews.

    The effort to deny reality, and the Bell Curve is only part of it because social forces are destroying many more, is getting harder to sustain and is therefore getting more force applied. In Europe, making some of these comments about favored classes of people can get you arrested. Whether that happens here is a matter that depends on how successful the effort at denying reality is. It also depends on elections.

    Why is this a concern of the left ? Maybe because their theories on economics don’t work and they need voters who aren’t too smart ?

    Mike K (2cf494)

  84. If you disagree with LGF, then you are racist.

    He calls almost everyone racist.

    It’s 100% ok to use this attack against the GOP, but not against Barack Obama. It’s not racist until it’s used against Obama because black people are different from white people? There’s your racism… the people who think we ought to care that Obama’s black.

    Obama’s race is only relevant in that his defenders call his critics racist. LGF is probably the most racist website this side of Stormfront, with LGF admin leaving the ‘n-word’ on other comment sections they don’t like. Now that’s actually pretty racist.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  85. I think that SPQR has the right of it. In the end, every single person who opposes Obama will be labeled a racist. Ultimately, Obama’s and the democrats policies are indefensible, so playing the race card is their only option.

    Obama is now doubling down on Global Warming, and I notice that columnists are no longer prefacing every article with remarks about how ‘smart, brilliant, intelligent’ Obama is.

    As for the ‘Spock’ comparison: Spock actually makes prompt decisions, with out reference to politics. The does not sound like Obama.

    jack (e383ed)

  86. Linking to Charles Johnson is unwise was it drives traffic to someone that is intolerant of dissent and practices group think amongst his posters. We need fewer cyber Stalins. Let that man live in his well earned obscurity.

    richardb (592499)

  87. Harry Bellafonte and the house negro, Condi Rice as Aunt Jemimah, Clarence Thomas as Uncle Tom, and Joe Lieberman in blackface …

    JD (c72acf)

  88. “I don’t know if you’re familiar with intentionalism but an ad can feature racial undertones without the person intending racism.

    Comment by imdw — 12/1/2009 @ 7:44 am ”

    In other words, racist people will think it’s racist because they think in race all the time, and it doesn’t matter that the person making the as was not being racist.

    sorry, but we still get to make the same level of criticism of Obama that was made against Bush. This specific attack was used against bush. Hell, Bush was even called a monkey all the time. but this ad didn’t call Obama a monkey, it called his defenders willfully ignorant. Whether that’s true or not, I am sick and tired of Obama’s network tell me that everything is racist.

    It’s racist to show up to a TEA party meeting. LGF said yesterday that Sarah Palin is a huge bigot (no citation provided, though). You aren’t a ‘true black man’ if you oppose Obamacare.

    OK… we get it. The democrats have always been twisting races against eachother. The GOP has always advocated equality. Just because the democrats took over the NAACP and now bribe black voters instead of preaching equality doesn’t mean they aren’t still twisting race, only now in the opposite direction.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  89. I remember Bush was often depicted as a monkey so obviously it’s not necessarily racist. But to hear you guys talk, you’d think there was no racism left in America. Everybody knows that’s not true.

    Tonight when Obama announces a total and immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan you’ll realize he’s more than a monkey. You’ll realize he’s a man with the balls to admit he was wrong and to do the right thing.

    On the other hand, if he announces an aggressive plan of escalation, in order to eventually get out with dignity, then I’ll realize he’s just a weak puppet to the generals the the pentagon and the conservative know-it-alls. And that will be a sad day for America.

    mikeb302000 (6127bb)

  90. But to hear you guys talk, you’d think there was no racism left in America. Everybody knows that’s not true.

    You are the only one making that assertion. But we have grown used to you arguing with the voices in your head.

    JD (c72acf)

  91. One final note: this is not a double-standard. It would be a double-standard only if there were no well-known, racist black people/apes stereotype to begin with. In this society, it is simply the case that comparing black people to apes means something different than comparing white people to apes.

    What does it mean, then, to compare white people to apes?

    Are you aware than German people were compared to apes in a 1910’s era propoganda poster?

    I do participate in racism: I’m a white, middle-class guy in America. I benefit from such privilege accordingly.

    Tom,

    Ethnic privilege is a fact of life everywhere , all over the world.

    Are you aware that in Malaysia, there are laws that exist specifically to discriminate against the Chinese minority living there?

    And I’m posting because I believe that we are not living in a society free of racism yet, and thus I feel I should be concerned about that, instead of using my privilege to escape these concerns (which is one of its main functions).

    Why do you oppose ethnic privilege, even ethnic privilege from which you benefit?

    People in Malaysia, Japan, and Sweden think we are too obsessed with equality. I have heard others proclaim that America ought to conform to the practices of other countries. Maybe they are right.

    Michael Ejercito (6a1582)

  92. “Explain how intentionalism leads you to the conclusion that there are racial undertones that refer to Barcky.”

    Intentionalism leads to the conclusion that they didn’t intend racism.

    [note: fished from spam filter. –Stashiu]

    imdw (797120)

  93. It’s not racist, but it’s predictable that the whiney-ass libs would characterize it as such, so therefore it’s a good idea to use the “evil” chimps to bring your ad maximum exposure as a consequence of the predicted liberal outrage.

    The most relevant thing is that Obama is not a natural born citizen and the chimps represent the conservatives in the media, courts and congress who are standing against the Constitution because they are afraid that the rule of law is a tough sell.

    j curtis (5126e4)

  94. But to hear you guys talk, you’d think there was no racism left in America.

    That must have been veiled, because as far as I can see no one said that, or said anything like it. Possibly you’ve got a pair of those Ben Franklin multilensed glasses that pick the code out of the text?

    Slartibartfast (e1d60a)

  95. RochF at 75 – As someone said at another blog, “My cat is smarter than Joy Behar. And less evil.”

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  96. Were I a malicious god-like being, it might be amusing to make society terrifically sensitive to a particular frequently-used term, then define it in about 1000 ways, and watch the results.

    Racism has become something of an 11th commandment, but the definition of the sin has been omitted. Thus believers in the religion of the left can accuse any and all of violation.

    Being just another powerless human, all I can do is refuse to play this game any more. But I do agree that the game itself is more insulting than 99% of the innocuous comments we are supposed to find so offensive. Ideally we are to whirl madly in navel-gazing obsession, stewing possibly forever over the likelihood that somebody, somewhere, may find our act or comment ‘racist’.

    In the real world, people who are so sensitive that you can’t hold a conversation with them are simply best avoided. And whose fault is that?

    jodetoad (059c35)

  97. #95–is your cat black? I figure your comment must be racist in some fashion.

    Rochf (ae9c58)

  98. You bet there is racism in America:

    http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/11/call_post_called_out_for_carto.html

    Whoops. I guess the definition of racism is all about the melanin content of the racist?

    It couldn’t be about trivializing and shutting down political opponents by using a “hotbutton” term?

    Naw.

    Eric Blair (bc43a4)

  99. Rochf – Nope, she’s a tan and gray tiger and a parking lot rescue (abandoned 6 month kitten). If she was a black cat she might just be more evil than Joy.

    (And since I wrote my comment at 95 she’s stalked me while I was in the bathroom so maybe I am wrong.)

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  100. But to hear you guys talk, you’d think there was no racism left in America. Everybody knows that’s not true.

    You are the only one making that assertion. But we have grown used to you arguing with the voices in your head.

    Comment by JD ”

    Damn straight, JD.

    LGF is racist all the time. Democrats who think you aren’t a real black man if you don’t support Obamacare are extremely racist. Garafolo saying the TEA protests are based on white’s internal racism is itself very racist.

    There’s tons and tons of racism out there. Much of it thinks that we should treat blacks with special favors, or they can’t hack real life. This is crap, and many blacks are insulted by this crap. There’s the idea that Arabs can handle democracy, or that freedom is a western thing. There’s the idea that whites can’t handle a black president.

    Conservatives observe the left (and the extreme right) display racism all the time. Treating people according to the content of their character, and not their race, is the conservative, republican, and virtuous response to democrat racism.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  101. Mike

    > But to hear you guys talk, you’d think there was no racism left in America. Everybody knows that’s not true.

    No, there is racism. These days it seems to exist more often on the left than the right, though.

    > Tonight when Obama announces a total and immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan you’ll realize he’s more than a monkey. You’ll realize he’s a man with the balls to admit he was wrong and to do the right thing.

    So, its ballsy to lose a war to a vicious and remorseless enemy that will not stop attacking us until we all say that there is no God but Allah. Balls!

    You know, because everyone thinks of Neville Chamberlain as a stud.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  102. Perhaps Tom and IMDW and Charles and SEK and others need to spend less time worrying about racism, veiled or otherwise, and more time with a dictionary understanding the difference between “racism” and “bigotry.”

    BJTexs (a2cb5a)

  103. Racism is like Beauty, most often found in the eye of the beholder.

    ropelight (ac4f05)

  104. “But to hear you guys talk, you’d think there was no racism left in America.”

    Don’t be absurd. Racism is as common as dirt and openly expressed…by the lefties.

    Lefties are always calling people names like cracker or redneck and sneering about “old white men”.

    “The latest New York Times-CBS News poll identifies the demographic group with the highest level of support for John McCain: rich old white men…”–The Nation

    About the worst thing you can be in lefty-world is old, rich and (especially) white.

    It’s pretty hard to miss the racism.

    Dave Surls (290c3a)

  105. BJ – They do not even care about it at that level. This is a simple shortcut for them to beat their chests and declared themselves superior. Their cries of racism are ironic, since they attempt to take the actions of individuals and attribute those thoughts and actions to a collective group. Usually, this is a bad bad bad thing to do.

    JD (d55760)

  106. But I do not have any friends, or a life, so what do I know?

    JD (d55760)

  107. “…President Obama was on the cover of GQ magazine…”

    Just why would they grant this honor to someone who walks around in a suit with both hands in his trouser pockets?

    Dear Mr.President: If your hands are cold, have your aide get you some gloves to wear, and top-coats are nice too.

    AD - RtR/OS! (66f601)

  108. AD at 107 – Is he a member of the Bundeswehr?
    (From the military “Bundeswehr Mittens” for trouser pockets, refering to the supposed habit of West German soldiers to walk with their hands in their pockets.)

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  109. No, just a Chi-town low-life who never learned how to appear as a leader without paying someone off.

    AD - RtR/OS! (66f601)

  110. “But to hear you guys talk, you’d think there was no racism left in America.”

    Don’t be absurd. Racism is as common as dirt and openly expressed…by the lefties.

    Lefties are always calling people names like cracker or redneck and sneering about “old white men”.

    “The latest New York Times-CBS News poll identifies the demographic group with the highest level of support for John McCain: rich old white men…”–The Nation

    About the worst thing you can be in lefty-world is old, rich and (especially) white.

    It’s pretty hard to miss the racism.

    Comment by Dave Surls

    True dat, Surlsly! White men are so oppressed! How a white guy holds his head up in public is beyond me. I mean, only 90% of the US Senate and a disproportionate amount of power, influence, and money…..it is so hard to be a white guy in a America.

    timb (449046)

  111. Particularly when one walks through life with Rectal-Cranial Inversion Syndrome (it’s against the club by-laws).

    AD - RtR/OS! (66f601)

  112. “idiot Birthers”

    They’re idiots only because the natural born citizen requirement is idiotic.

    What that rule says is that a kid born in Mexico City, who comes to America because he wants to be an American, joins the army, fights in Afghanistan wins a CMOH, and risks everything he has, including his life, in defense of America can NEVER be president simply because he was born across the border, while a stinking commie, traitor whore, like Jane Fonda, is fully qualified to be POTUS just because the slut was born in New York.

    They’re idiots only because they want an idiotic rule enforced.

    Dave Surls (290c3a)

  113. Dave

    There is a good logical reason for it. Yes, of course americans can be actually traitorous. See the American Taliban from a few years back. but it is slightly harder to make a naturally born american into an actual agent of a foreign power. maybe it doesn’t go far enough, but its better than literally nothing.

    And it is not idiotic to enforce a part of the constitution that is acutlaly there. what is idiotic is that there really is no rational cause for doubt at this point.

    That and its hard to believe that Joe Biden would make a better president.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  114. Dave: Tell it to the guys who actually wrote, and approved of, the document.
    BTW, The Medal should be referred to in short-hand as an MOH, which is its’ authorized name.
    And, Yes, I realize that it is authorized by Congress, but so is the Purple Heart and we dont call it the CPH, do we?
    It is awarded by the President, not the Congress, in the name of a Grateful Nation.

    AD - RtR/OS! (66f601)

  115. I didn’t think the Medal of Honor was even authorized by Congress, certainly it isn’t on a case by case basis. There is a Congressionally authorized organization for recognition of recipients, and that’s where the term Congressional Medal of Honor comes from.

    Indeed, it is awarded by the president, but it’s simply called the MOH.

    Dave Surls, it is incredibly dangerous to simply overrule the constitution because you think parts of it are idiotic. There is actually a great reasoning behind that requirement, though I agree that it was written into the constitution in a very poor way. If you don’t like the law, have it changed. If I really thought Obama wasn’t born in the USA, I would not accept your horrible line of reasoning that it’s OK, because this law doesn’t matter.

    CHANGE THE LAW if you feel that way. Until you do, this is our constitution, and that Mexican Medal of Honor recipient SWORE to defend that ‘idiotic’ law. It matters that we can rely on our laws.

    Also, if they said ‘Natural Born Citizen or Honorably discharged Veteran’, I would be delighted.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  116. Dave Surls – The requirement was included in the Constitution to prevent what was becoming common in Europe of “shopping” for foriegn nobility to serve as heads of state.
    Some say it was specifically meant to prevent the Marquis de Lafyette being selected as he was quite popular among some Americans at the time.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  117. Question for you UCMJ law-docs out there:
    If a soldier who holds an MOH or DSC/NC, etc, is convicted in a General Courts-Martial and sentenced to a DD, does he lose his decorations?

    AD - RtR/OS! (66f601)

  118. And calling people idiots because they want the constitution followed is itself simply disgusting. If you don’t like the rule of law, then you’ve got serious issues.

    There is nothing idiotic about people asking Obama to be held to the same standard as anybody. The natural born requirement is pretty confused and I think Obama has a great chance of being eligible even if he was born in Kenya (which I sincerely do not believe). That level of fraud would still be an atrocity, but it’s clear that Obama doesn’t have his original certificate or has a good reason to hide it. I think the political liability is punishment enough.

    He can’t escape the fact that he has fought this going to trial on the basis that Americans to not have standing to have this enforced. While very few voters who care were going to vote for him otherwise, I think he should be criticized for that. Presidents should do all they can to make their record an open book. The way the COLB was handled was terrible. KOS? Some anonymous official?

    Like I said, I think Obama is eligible and even born in Hawaii, but I also think he’s a jerk.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  119. “There is a good logical reason for it.”

    No, there isn’t. It’s a totally stupid rule. It always was stupid, and it’s going to keep on being stupid.

    “Dave: Tell it to the guys who actually wrote, and approved of, the document.”

    I think they’re all dead, so there wouldn’t be much point to it.

    Anyway, they were a bunch of hypocrites who made an exception for themselves…

    “No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President…”

    None of them were natural born citizens, they were all born subjects of the British crown, and made themselves into Americans by an act of will…just like our hypothetical kid who comes from Mexico City and wins a medal of honor…so how important can the requirement that one be a natural born citizen be, if it didn’t apply to the guys who made the rule?

    It’s an idiotic rule, always was, always will be.

    Dave Surls (290c3a)

  120. “It’s an idiotic rule, always was, always will be.”

    Sure it is. Who would ever really want our leader to actually be one of us? What is silly notion.

    ropelight (ac4f05)

  121. Oh, if only I could have a choice between Obama and Vaclav Havel?

    AD - RtR/OS! (66f601)

  122. Dave, you disagree with a rule, ans so you say there is absolutely no justification for it. You don’t bother discussing the justifications for it… you just say it’s idiotic.

    that’s the best you can do?

    you also say that people who advocate following the constitution as it is, and only changing it by amending it, and then following the amended document are “idiots”.

    That’s also the best you can do?

    We are a democracy. The states agreed to that rule and have not changed it. Like it or not, you have to be a natural born citizen to be president. That’s the law.

    Your Mexican hero SWORE TO UPHOLD the natural born citizen law. I think the requirement should be made more clear, and if you want to debate changing it, that’s also fine. You have a problem with the writers of the constitution, but you come across as a whiny ankle biter. What have you accomplished in your life that gives you the idea that you can dismiss our founders? Of course they had to grandfather themselves in… that doesn’t contradict the requirement… it shows they had a long term view.

    Are you even serious? Are you George Costanza’s father?

    Dustin (cf255c)

  123. David

    > so how important can the requirement that one be a natural born citizen be, if it didn’t apply to the guys who made the rule?

    I’ll explain this to you really slowly.

    Okay we rebelled in 1776. Before that date there were no natural born American citizens. Why? Because that land was British territory making them naturally born British subjects.

    Then in 1789 the constitution was written and ratified shortly after. So as of that date the oldest natural born American would be… 13 years old. So logically there was not a single person in the world who could meet the requirement of being a natural born American citizen, 35 years or older, and for that matter none of those natural born citizens would have been a resident of the united states for 14 years, as is also required.

    So the founders HAD to make an exception, or else they would have to wait until 1811 to have their first president.

    And as for your MOH example, you think this never occurred to the founders? But they were more worried about foreign agents running for office here than losing that small number of first generation immigrants who might actually be a good president.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  124. It seems that some think that Patterico’s imputation of racism is rather niggardly.
    (Remember that one?)

    Bored Lawyer (44ef84)

  125. Birthers suck

    JD (d55760)

  126. 121–or a choice between Obama and any citizen walking down the street.–I have to figure that picking a President randomly out of the phone book would produce someone at least as competent as Obama, and maybe more so.

    Rochf (ae9c58)

  127. Bored Lawyer – The use of that word is prima facia evidence of Marion Berry’s idiocy, and your racism.

    😉

    JD (d55760)

  128. David

    And i would add something else. the founders would not have supported your attitude percisely because they disdained the idea that military service made one a better patriot than anyone else. they believed in civilian control of the military. G. Washington, for instance, never allowed himself to be portrayed in any official portrait as president, as wearing a uniform and indeed only put on his uniform when he took to the field against the whisky rebellion.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  129. JD i like on red eye how the guy will often say, “and if you disagree with me, you are a racist.” lol its becoming a punchline.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  130. A.W. – They should credit me for that. I know they read this blog.

    JD (d55760)

  131. AW, good point.

    There’s no reason to believe that Dave’s Mexican soldier would make a better president. The idea of a Medal of Honor earning someone political victories is really the opposite of the kind of honor I want in my military.

    We need someone who will lead the USA, and who will favor the USA in every way they can over other nations. The president is our head of state for foreign relations, and is special in this way. While really less powerful than the legislature (at least as envisioned in the Constitution), it’s critical this President have no special allegiance to another country, and see the USA as fundamentally more important to benefit. That’s the only way international relations work, since all the other nations also are vying in their best interest.

    Foreign born folks can run for congress, sit on our high court, and handle all kinds of other issues. I don’t really mind if an immigrant were president, but it’s not an idiotic rule to exclude them. It’s just one side of a multifaceted issue. That Surls refuses to argue the point says quite a lot.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  132. Dustin

    Well, on the other hand, i have found that often the foreign born american citizens are among the most patriotic. i always say that converts are usually the most outwardly devout, in religion or citizenship.

    I am sure there are a few people who would have made great presidents of america who were born in other countries and advocated for us above all others. no policy is without cost. but then again there are benefits. consider that this clause may have saved us from the words horror of all:

    President Swartzenegger.

    (sp?)

    Then again, his rise has been foretold in the movie Demolition Man.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  133. AW, I agree completely. People who come to America and join our culture are basically the best Americans we’ve got… at least in my experience.

    Like I said, I wouldn’t mind amending this for clarity or change. Though I think there is a great argument for why we want our presidents to be thoroughly American, and Obama is showing us why that is so crucial. There’s an academic skepticism about this, but Obama doesn’t see himself as an American, and that’s a problem.

    The requirement is an inaccurate proxy for this deeply held association, but that’s the nature of these things.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  134. First, it is 3 monkeys/chimps that come to mind with the phrase “See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil”. Even if I saw another type of animal, I would see it as a take-off on the monkey theme.

    Second, the monkeys are representing the Congress, the Courts, and the Media, correct? I’m not sure how you can twist a monkey representation of the Supreme Court into a racist message.

    Sure there is racism today, which is why spending time on this nonsense is not helpful. Remember the story of “The Boy Who Cried Wolf”? Making false claims ends up causing legitimate claims to be ignored.

    While we are on the subject of race, I’ll link something interesting that I found linked at powerline:
    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/satchmo-and-the-jews-15265

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  135. “AW, I agree completely. People who come to America and join our culture are basically the best Americans we’ve got… at least in my experience.”

    I’m scratching my head trying to figure out why we would want to have a rule that prevents the best Americans we’ve got from serving as president of the United States.

    Dave Surls (290c3a)

  136. “True dat, Surlsly! White men are so oppressed!”

    Timmy, Timmy, Timmy, racism and oppression are two entirely different things.

    Racists, like cracker-hating lefties, or Nation of Islam loons are too weak to oppress the class of rich, white men. They would if they could, but we have enough lawyers, guns and money to keep them from being anything more than annoying little nuisances.

    Dave Surls (290c3a)

  137. Dave, um, that’s because you’re not trying to understand this issue at all.

    You’ve insulted everyone involved, including your mythical Mexican hero who swore to defend the rule of law, and according to you, is an idiot for doing so.

    But like I said, I don’t mind if the nation had that debate and amended their constitution. I do think there are great arguments on both sides.

    I suppose you also want to eliminate the minimum age requirement, right? If you don’t, you’re being even less rational.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  138. Dave

    What part of “danger of foreign infiltration” are you having trouble with? And here’s another tough concept. Just becauuse i acknowledge that there is a cost to this rule doesn’t mean that i denounce the rule.

    Now you might disagree, but it doesn’t make the rule idiotic, or the desire to enforce it idiotic. it just means reasonable people can disagree.

    No what makes the birthers idiots is that they believe the president is foriegn born in the face of pretty clear evidence that he is native born.

    And thanks for ignoring the historical spanking i gave you.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  139. American by Birth…Hey, I was never asked what I wanted, it was just chance, etc.

    American by Naturalization….they come here by choice, they want to be an American.

    And, wasn’t it William F. Buckley who said that he’d rather be governed by a group chosen at random (or the first 50 names?) from the phone book than the faculty at Harvard?

    AD - RtR/OS! (66f601)

  140. “Dave, um, that’s because you’re not trying to understand this issue at all.”

    Well, I certainly don’t understand why you would support a rule that prevents the “best Americans we’ve got” from serving as POTUS. If it was me, I’d want to have the best Americans we’ve got serving as POTUS, and if a rule prevented the best Americans we’ve got from serving as POTUS, then I’d get rid of it.

    “There’s no reason to believe that Dave’s Mexican soldier would make a better president.”

    Well you never know for sure, I guess, but I suspect that someone like Franz Sigel (immigrant, civil war general, educator, newspaperman, and politician) would make a better president than Jane Fonda.

    However, because of the natural citizen requirement, Sigel could NEVER become president, but Jane Fonda could.

    And, IMO, a rule that produces a situation like that is a stupid rule, and for that reason I agree with Pat’s comment that the Birthers are idiots.

    “And thanks for ignoring the historical spanking i gave you.”

    I’m not sure what an historical spanking is, so I’ll just have to ignore it for the time being.

    Dave Surls (290c3a)

  141. David Surly

    > Well, I certainly don’t understand why you would support a rule that prevents the “best Americans we’ve got” from serving as POTUS.

    Gee, because there are other concerns. For instance, let’s try a thought experiment here. Do you suppose that the best possible president might actually be 18 years of age? Yes or no.

    And if so, does that mean you oppose the age requirement in the constitution? Yes or no. And if not, why not?

    After you answer that, maybe I can show you how shallow you are being.

    And, by the way, how can it ever be idiotic to advocate enforcing a provision of the constitution—if you have credible evidence that it is being broken? Now I agree that birthers are idiots, but that is because they lack the credible evidence, not because there is something idiotic about enforcing the constitution as written.

    Seriously, why have a constitution if you think its okay to just ignore it?

    > I’m not sure what an historical spanking is

    Then reread #123 until you get it.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  142. Basically, any time you pair Obama with a monkey, you’re going to be called racist, like that NY Post cartoonist. This does not strike me as very complicated and is based on the fact that blacks in the past have been compared to apes and monkeys.

    Similarly, people can feel free to put a watermelon in Obama’s hands, or pair him with a noose, but you should also be prepared to be called racist.

    No one made these “rules” up just yesterday. They are what they are, and they’ve been around for a while.

    It’s not exactly fair, but then, neither was the original racism that led to the rules. People shouldn’t have been calling blacks apes in the first place. People shouldn’t have been hanging blacks. The implications of these powerful images — the noose and the ape stereotype — do not just disappear b/c some people would like to just wish them away.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  143. Basically, any time you pair Obama with a monkey, you’re going to be called racist,

    Except Obama wasn’t paired with a monkey here.

    Some chump (8087d5)

  144. Some chump:

    You’re right, but you’re also parsing.

    1. Obama’s name at the top.

    2. Monkeys.

    That’s all some people need to see to fire off the charge of racism.

    There are an infinite number of ways to dis Obama. When someone chooses to employ monkeys, they are immediately on shaky ground b/c people wonder why they were even thinking of monkeys in the first place.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  145. Myron, this see no evil criticism makes a lot of sense when talking about a case some think hasn’t had the day in court it deserves.

    It’s utterly natural.

    You’re the racist here. You think Obama’s skin color matters. It doesn’t. If he were white, the birthers would be saying the same shit (and hell yes they would… if John Kerry had been raised in foreign countries and released his COLB to KOS there would be a lot of paranoia about it).

    Bush was called a monkey too. That’s just as OK as it is to call Obama a monkey. Or his wife chewbacca or klingon. Anything that is truly outrageous to call one is the same against the other.

    [Found in spam filter.]

    Dustin (cf255c)

  146. Some people see things, and ask why? Moron sees things that aren’t there, and asks why not?

    So much for post-racial, eh Moron?

    People's Front of Judea (44bf37)

  147. Also, Obama/Bush is more closely related to a male chimp, on a DNA analysis, than he is to his wife.

    Though the crazy birthers didn’t make this comparison, why would it be unacceptable?

    Does Myron think Obama is somehow less human than Bush? Why? Why does Myron think Obama needs his Myron-Shield from this kind of comic comparison? Healthy people realize that black people are not different from white people in any way that would make one more vulnerable to this attack. And yet, democrats think we need to have a level of sensitivity about monkeys. Monkeys?

    Myron, black people are not monkeys. I mean, we’re all pretty similar to monkeys, and when people are foolish, they can often be comically compared to monkeys, but it’s not like any harm is done. There’s no great secret truth that you are protecting anyone from.

    I recall realizing that I was at an MLK party (I thought it was just a party). I had never had a 40 ounce before, and as I wondered about the KFC my friend started cutting a watermelon. I was the only republican there (and I left). A few years later, some of my friends at law school held a ‘Ghetto Fabulous’ party. They were all democrats too, and some of these people dressed in a stereotypical black gangster way, one with an afro wig. Democrats.

    All these people… every one of them, had this bizarre need to protect blacks from legitimate criticism. While actually being quite racist.

    It goes hand in hand, in my experience. I don’t want Obama treated any better or worse than Bush.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  148. I periodically re-iterate my rule for responding to comments:

    Since I am not in the fifth-grade, I don’t respond to any comment that resorts to name calling. As soon as I see a school-yard taunt, I stop reading the response. So if that’s your tack with me, you’re talking to other people and not me, you’re not debating anything, and you probably should be off watching reality TV or otherwise engaged in something else that requires no thought.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  149. Dustin: You’re pretending you don’t know the stereotype. That’s disingenuous.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  150. Gee, why were they thinking of monkeys … oh, I don’t know. Probably because the “See no evil, Hear no evil, say no evil” theme has used monkeys since its creation and has nothing to do with racism.

    The idea that you have to watch everything you saw about Obama just in case someone can make a connection to an hint of an implication of racism is nonsense. Its a tactic to inhibit criticism of Obama. Nothing else.

    SPQR (159590)

  151. Ok, Myron, there is a stereotype that Bush was a lot like a chimp, right? Are you familiar with that?

    And I don’t really know of any widespread comparison of blacks to monkeys, but you claim to know of this, and I trust you… it’s very plausible I admit.

    So what? There are tons of attacks made in every direction… and most of the chimp attacks lately have been made against white people.

    So you’re wrong, and I since you clearly think black people should be treated differently than whites, it’s clear you’re racist. I don’t think this excludes you from polite society, but you have a problem.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  152. “The idea that you have to watch everything you saw about Obama just in case someone can make a connection to an hint of an implication of racism is nonsense. Its a tactic to inhibit criticism of Obama. Nothing else.

    Comment by SPQR — 12/1/2009 @ 2:29 pm ”

    This is very well said.

    Indeed, this criticism was not even directly leveled against Obama, but it’s generally critical of Obama, and the calculus of charging people as racist is clearly something some democrats have a hard time avoiding.

    i’m more interested in the idea that blacks even need this protection. Clearly whites don’t.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  153. there is a stereotype that Bush was a lot like a chimp, right?

    Dustin, that was a personalized stereotype associated with one man. The stereotype of blacks as apes goes back a hundred-plus years.

    There is no long-running stereotype of white men being apes.

    I think a more one-to-one comparison would be showing Bush in Klan robes. That would be a similarly unfair stereotype.

    But we can’t just pretend the uncomfortable parts of history didn’t happen.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  154. Moron has rules regarding responding to comments. How white of him!
    The majority of your comments are inane drivel. Mocking your sorry @$$ is an appropriate response.

    People's Front of Judea (44bf37)

  155. Dustin: We also can’t just erase past negative symbolism b/c it makes us uncomfortable.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  156. The idea that you have to watch everything you (say) about Obama just in case someone can make a connection to an hint of an implication of racism is nonsense …

    This is an exaggeration. People say plenty of negative things about Obama without being called racist. You should listen to FoxNews or even read this Web site. There are people (like me) who disagree with much of what is written here about Obama. But we don’t immediately come swooping in to claim racism. At least, I don’t.

    Frankly, I have been rather surprised and pleased how little of the criticism of Obama has been explicitly racist. Nearly all of the criticism concerns his policies.

    The Birthers, however, are a thing apart and are very properly marginalized.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  157. Moron, er, I mean Myron

    > Basically, any time you pair Obama with a monkey, you’re going to be called racist, like that NY Post cartoonist

    Yeah, except he didn’t. He paired the chimp with the person who wrote the stimulus who was not actually obama or indeed anyone in the white house.

    Just as these birther idiots called the courts, media and congress chimps, not obama. And you call that parsing.

    So really the rule is so long as the subject even tangentially relates to obama, no chimp references are allowed. In fact, if Obama visits the zoo, and you see someone about to take a picture of him near the monkey cages, be sure to tackle that person, beat the crap out of them, and then smash their camera. Take that little girl scout!

    > This does not strike me as very complicated and is based on the fact that blacks in the past have been compared to apes and monkeys.

    By the way, when does the statute of limitations run on that? Just curious. How long do we have to teach our kids these race-based rules when normally they wouldn’t even think of race?

    But of course as I noted above, this is not about getting beyond race. This is about keeping the grievance industry alive and suppressing dissent.

    > The implications of these powerful images — the noose and the ape stereotype — do not just disappear b/c some people would like to just wish them away.

    How about when people stop associating nooses and apes and watermelons uniquely with black people? I mean am I allowed to let my niece and nephews be unaware of Obama’s race. Or do I have to explain to them that because he is black that there are certain things that they can’t say about him?

    By the way, how exactly does this work. I mean obama is just as white as he is black, right? So can I say he looks halfway like an ape, and then if anyone gets offended, I say, “only his white half?” Just how black do you have to be for the ban on comparing a person (or anyone tangentially related to that person) to a monkey kicks in? Is there a one drop rule? /sarcasm

    Of course all of that is meant to be sarcastic. But do you start to see how corrosive it becomes when you have one set of rules for the criticism of white people, and one for the criticism of black people?

    And how connected to that person does that person have to be before they get to enjoy Obama’s immunity by proxy? For instance, if you compared Kevin Bacon to a chimp would we say that he is connected within six degrees to Obama and thus the comment is racist?

    But of course the real rule is this: if a republican or conservative says it, it is presumptively racist.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  158. In the instant case, Myron, the chimps are explicitly labeled Congress, Courts, and Media. How does that apply to Teh One?

    JD (93ce58)

  159. Gee, why were they thinking of monkeys …

    SPQR: Why were they thinking of monkeys as opposed to the other myriad ways to attack Obama? That’s the question. Or better still: Why were they reaching for monkey imagery knowing full well the stereotype about black people and monkeys? It defies reason that they were unaware of the stereotype, especially considering we have periodic blow-ups like this every so often (like the NY Post cartoon). Thus, it feels deliberate.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  160. JD: It’s the imagery. You could have put whatever tags you wanted on the monkeys. But the ad puts a criticism of Obama (positioning him as not being American) in with prominently featured apes.

    They knew what they were doing, unless they were complete ignoramuses, though with the Birthers, I have to acknowledge that as a possibility. But I should add it’s been my experience that ignorant folks know the stereotypes better than anyone else. That’s often all they know.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  161. A.W.: This is what I read,

    Moron, er, I mean Myron

    I ignored the rest, as per No. 147, b/c you appear to want to play games today rather than debate.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  162. Since I am not in the fifth-grade, I don’t respond to any comment that resorts to name calling.

    But Moron is apparently very much a fifth – grader, based on this earlier post:

    Your lying was the “small” part. Your reading comprehension leaves a bit to be desired, too, I should add.

    Comment by Myron — 11/21/2009 @ 3:17 pm

    So Moron doesn’t respond to “name calling,” yet has no prohibition from engaging in the same practice when it suits his purposes.

    Stop lying about your awesome morality, Moron. Own your words – the truth will follow you whenever you engage in your blatant hypocricy. Every time – get used to it.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  163. b/c you appear to want to play games today rather than debate.

    Unlike Moron, of course. He seems to have trouble remembering his earlier name – calling. Own your words, Moron – they will be tagged onto your backside like a can on a dog’s leg. Get used to it.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  164. So you are comfortable with creating meaning that flies in the face of the stated intent, to continue to generate Teh Outrage?

    I want a list of every word, phrase, and image, to include codewords and dog-whistles, that are not allowed to be uttered by Conservatives. Because that is really the underlying factor here. As Dems are presumed to be pure of intent, their overt examples of racism can be ignored, or brushed aside, while meaning can be extracted from conservatives, meaning not intended, because the enlightened people have declared conservatives to not be given the benefit of the doubt due to the Dems actual history of racism.

    Interesting how applying the actions of an individual to the collective is only wrong in certain circumstances.

    JD (93ce58)

  165. El Moron he no like be called a moron. Que lastima. Hee hee!

    As for people who think monkey is black people, I ask, who has the racist mind?

    nk (df76d4)

  166. They could have changed this timeless image of Hear/See/Speak no Evil from monkeys to jackasses, and the same grievance pimps would be squawking the exact same thing.

    JD (93ce58)

  167. The stereotype of blacks as apes goes back a hundred-plus years.

    If the see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, pre-dates the use of blacks being compared to monkeys or apes, is it still racist?

    People's Front of Judea (44bf37)

  168. Myron, your question is simply and utterly dishonest. You assume that the monkey image was conceived first, and the “see no evil” reference then followed. That’s patently and intentionally false on your part.

    Unless you really are so ignorant of the ubiqutousness of the see no evil monkeys? That would be consistent with my opinion of your competence.

    SPQR (159590)

  169. The political persuasion of the utterer and the target of the speech appears to be more relevant than the content of the speech.

    JD (93ce58)

  170. Moron, excuse me, Myron, is, unfortunately, as good as a Soros troll we will see being paid to derail a conservative thread.

    nk (df76d4)

  171. Myron, is everyone who watched King Kong, and liked it, a racist?

    People's Front of Judea (44bf37)

  172. There’s this difference of opinion out there.

    i think intent matters. This monkey see no evil thing was not meant to be racist. At least there’s absolutely no reason to think it was.

    To me, that’s good enough.

    To some, it’s not. Since it can be twisted to be racist, it’s not acceptable. I don’t see how monkeys are more like blacks than whites, so I don’t understand the twisting very much, and I see whites called monkeys all the time (in fact, this very ad did so).

    but that’s incidental. It doesn’t matter to Myron whether or not the people making this ad were racist. It’s racist anyway.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  173. , that are not allowed to be uttered by Conservatives

    JD: This is not about partisanship. And I’m not going to draw you up a list. Some things should be obvious.

    For instance, if you put a gas mask anywhere in an attack ad against a Jewish politician, you’re probably going to get grief, from at least some people. It does not make one bit of difference the context of why the gas mask is in an ad with a Jewish person.

    Again: I don’t think these “rules” are all that complicated, frankly. You make out like its an intellectual and cultural mine field.

    Most of it’s common sense.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  174. You assume that the monkey image was conceived first, and the “see no evil” reference then followed.

    SPQR: Correct. That is my assumption, based on the source. The Birther movement is built around the notion that Obama is some “alien other” who is “not like us.” So, I don’t think it at all a stretch to assume they deliberately wanted to push the Obama-as-subhuman stereotype.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  175. Not at all common sense, Myron. In the instant case, the monkeys have CONGRESS, COURTS, and MEDIA on them to identify exactly who is being referred to. At the same time, they are using a phrase and image that is ubiquitous. You won’t make a list. Nobody on the Left will do so. Like SEK, you like to be able to divine intent and meaning by placing certain parts of the language out-of-bounds, depending on the utterer and the target, just like SEK has been doing.

    JD (93ce58)

  176. The political persuasion of the utterer and the target of the speech appears to be more relevant than the content of the speech.

    JD: Not the political persuasion. But yes, the source of speech is a factor in how that speech is received. That’s common to language. It’s not a new concept.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  177. Birthers suck, big-time.

    JD (93ce58)

  178. Myron, I’ll repost just for you, with a change of emphasis:

    Sure there is racism today, which is why spending time on this nonsense is not helpful. Remember the story of “The Boy Who Cried Wolf”? Making false claims ends up causing legitimate claims to be ignored. (And we assume legitimate claims should not be ignored).

    134.
    First, it is 3 monkeys/chimps that come to mind with the phrase “See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil”. Even if I saw another type of animal, I would see it as a take-off on the monkey theme.

    Second, the monkeys are representing the Congress, the Courts, and the Media, correct? I’m not sure how you can twist a monkey representation of the Supreme Court into a racist message.

    Third, if someone wants to skip thinking about #1 and #2, then they are ruled by their reactions and feelings, not thinking and logic. There are a bazillion other things I can do to “push someone’s buttons” and never have a clue if I have to self-edit everything I say with a cross-reference to the PC lexicon of banned phrases.

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  179. So, when leftists call people house negroes, Uncle Toms, and Aunt Jemima, or put people in blackface, that is alright. Thanks for admitting that.

    JD (93ce58)

  180. “So, I don’t think it at all a stretch to assume they deliberately wanted to push the Obama-as-subhuman stereotype.”

    OK, you’re insane. That’s your argument?

    They used labels and a well known critical metaphor. Your assumptions only tell us about you, not them. And your assumptions are obviously wrong, not that this concerns you.

    The US President is black. The age of racial sensitivity is over. Blacks have the full range of opportunities, and suffer and benefit from the same world we all do. They are no worse and no better, and can be criticized and praised in the same ways.

    If someone actually intends to treat one race worse, that is indeed cause for criticism. That’s why i criticize you. But making up their intentions to boost a bullshit attack? That’s not good enough.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  181. And I’m not going to draw you up a list. Some things should be obvious.

    Here one “thing that should be obvious” – Moron is a liar. Stick a fork in him, he’s done.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  182. from monkeys to jackasses, and the same grievance pimps would be squawking the exact same thing.

    JD: You don’t know that. You’re just throwing something out there.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  183. You should know that you can’t talk to liars, JD – and Moron is one of the worst (IYOW) Mendoucheness Trolls we’ve seen here in some time.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  184. At least there’s absolutely no reason to think it was.

    Dustin: Sure there’s a reason. The Birthers think Obama is an illegal alien from Africa. There’s all kinds of racial and cultural subtexts in their whole message.

    The Birthers are not babes in the woods.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  185. “…Obama is some “alien other” who is “not like us.”

    Alien indeed!

    People's Front of Judea (44bf37)

  186. Myron – It is not obvious or common sense as to why one should not compare the See/Hear/Speak no Evil words and images to Congress, the Courts, and the Media. So, it is way more fraught than you let on, especially when you add in codewords and dog-whistles, that only people on the Left have the ability to see and reinterpret.

    JD (93ce58)

  187. You’re just throwing something out there.

    Unlike our little Boy Moron, who throws his feces at others with abandon – it’s almost…simian like.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  188. Myron’s got rules. Too bad they don’t include cogent comments.

    People's Front of Judea (44bf37)

  189. Why would that not happen, Myron? The “logic” would be no less tortured than the standard cries, as the jackass would be based on the ubiquitous image of monkeys, so it would be one step removed from comparing Congress, the Courts, and the Media to monkeys, which is indirectly a comparison of Teh One to a monkey, which is overtly racist, depending on who does it. Right?

    JD (5f9cc7)

  190. Dustin: Sure there’s a reason. The Birthers think Obama is an illegal alien from Africa. There’s all kinds of racial and cultural subtexts in their whole message.

    The Birthers are not babes in the woods.

    Comment by Myron

    what a terrible argument.

    There’s subtexts? He’s african. He was raised, at least for a while, in a different country. This was an attack levied against mccain, too. Calling them racist is bullshit, unless you have some evidence.

    What Myron wants is to insulate OBama from any attack he can. He’s shown a fair bit of actual racism in this thread, as I’ve pointed out, and has no problem with racism itself. It’s just a tool for him. It is property of the democrats, not a serious ethical concern.

    [Found in spam filter.]

    Dustin (cf255c)

  191. Cue Macauley Culkin – I see …racisms !!!!

    JD (5f9cc7)

  192. Remember the story of “The Boy Who Cried Wolf”?

    MD: Some people think every claim of racism is crying wolf. I think that applies to some of the people on this very site, quite honestly. I asked JD the other day if he could name one well-known instance of racism anywhere in the last 20 years. I thought those were pretty broad parameters. I went back and scanned the posts and he couldn’t. (If I missed it, JD, let me know!)
    So to people like him, racism is dead.

    A lot of people forget however, that MLK and a group of black and white activists had to fight for civil rights. If there is a fight, that assumes opposition. Logic tells us that all the opposition didn’t just die off en masse as soon as the formal barriers of Jim Crow fell. Logic also tells us that racism, like other characteristics and habits from parents, is sometimes passed down and sometimes taught.

    But J.D. and that crowd ignore all that. To them, every accusation of racism, no matter how legitimate, is “crying wolf.”

    In this case, I think the cry is definitely legitimate. The Birthers are not good.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  193. 187.Why would that not happen, Myron? The “logic” would be no less tortured than the standard cries, as the jackass would be based on the ubiquitous image of monkeys, so it would be one step removed from comparing Congress, the Courts, and the Media to monkeys, which is indirectly a comparison of Teh One to a monkey, which is overtly racist, depending on who does it. Right?

    Comment by JD — 12/1/2009 @ 3:46 pm

    Actually, it would be worse, they would be confused if Obama was being called a Donkey, or all donkeys (Dems) were being called monkeys, or that we didn’t like Democrats being in charge of the Congress, Courts, and Media, or if it meant something else, but no matter what, it would have to be bad

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  194. Now you are fucking lying, Myron. I stated, unequivocably, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that racism exists, and that nobody with a brain could argue any differently.

    JD (5f9cc7)

  195. Myron, you are very good at taking a logical point and obfuriating it to no end. Are you on Obama’s speechwriting team?

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  196. People like him? Who are “people like him”, Myron?

    JD (5f9cc7)

  197. Birthers suck, big-time.

    JD: On this, we can agree. They don’t serve any useful purpose in any serious debate. From a purely partisan perspective, they probably help Democrats with their antics, but at the cost of a some national strife.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  198. that only people on the Left have the ability to see and reinterpret.

    JD: I strongly dispute your suggestion that “only people on the left” know there is a long history of blacks being compared to monkeys and apes.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  199. MD: I follow points to their logical conclusion, not stop half-way at the most convenient point, which is what most do.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  200. Who are “people like him”, Myron?

    JD: People who think (or pretend) racism is dead. But nice try.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  201. I was referring to the codewords and dog-whistles that apparently only the Leftists can hear and/or identify. You really are being disingenuous tonite.

    JD (5f9cc7)

  202. Where did I say racism is dead, Myron? Since I stated in no uncertain terms, the exact opposite of that, in good faith, I will assume you missed that. Next time, it will be a lie.

    JD (5f9cc7)

  203. Myron, I think JD knows that racism is alive and well. If I remember correctly, his wife is Vietnamese, and has heard every slang term used in every movie regarding America’s Vietnam war experience.

    Quit the bs.

    People's Front of Judea (44bf37)

  204. Some chump:

    You’re right, but you’re also parsing.

    No, Myron, I am not parsing. Obama was not compared to an ape in any way, shape, or form. That’s the honest truth, and any attempt to claim that he was is a deliberate misrepresentation.

    Some chump (8087d5)

  205. JD: No. 197. I don’t think recognizing code-words and dog-whistles is a partisan thing. You keep trying to put a big issue – racism — in a little box — politics.

    Kathleen Parker, a conservative, wrote a column about how Palin uses code-words that echo the Southern Strategy. She even used the words “dog-whistle.” Now, whether one agrees with her or not, the point is that it is not just people on the left who recognize when someone is playing the race card without being explicit (this takes me back to our Atwater debate, btw).

    Myron (6a93dd)

  206. Birthers…

    I guess I don’t get it. Some say the Constitutional mandate is a stupid “rule”. Fine, there are mechanisms in place to change things. Get enough states to agree to amend the Constitution and make it so. The rule of law should prevail.

    My question: Who knows ANYTHING about Barry that has not come from him or his minions? Even more to the point, why does the mere mention of this drive libtards, and an increasing number of “conservatives”, in a spitting frenzy immediately upon hearing it. Why? Why does any mention of this spur an attack on those who legitimately want to know? Why is that stupid?

    Why is it so tough to just produce a birth certificate, as Barry’s campaign demanded of John McCain, who responded with his?

    1. Who has seen the COLB? No one. Don’t even mention the “certificate” produced on the web sites. Hawaii has issued these for years to foreigners. All the state will say is it has “seen” the original. It will not confirm or deny the contents.

    2. Who has seen his ANY of his school records? No one. They are sealed. Why? Everyone else saw Kerry’s, Bush’s, et all. Why not Barry’s?

    3. Who has seen his health records? No one. They are sealed. Why?

    4. Why has the Administration paid over a million dollars to a prominent D.C. law firm to challenge ANY effort to see the COLB? What possible reason is there for that? Why doesn’t that fact alone bother anyone? Imagine the fallout if Bush had did this…

    5. You are a criminal attorney, and you know more than non-attorneys about evidence. Why have you chosen to completely disregard this lack of evidence while calling birthers stupid? Why no intellectual curiosity? Calling birthers stupid does not answer the question. Saying the rule is stupid does not answer the question.

    6. Bullying those who ask this question is not a proper response, and those who do should ask themselves EXACTLY what evidence, that could stand on its own in a criminal court, have you personally seen to settle this question? Do you realize this all started with an inquiry by a DEMOCRAT, Phillip Berg? Who was an assistant State’s Attorney in New Jersey? Right wing, indeed.

    Defending the Constitution takes guts, especially against mob rule. All of this would go away instantly if Barry would produce the same piece of paper it takes to enroll in a grade school.

    Fed up with Kumbaya BS (313333)

  207. Some chump: But you ignore everything else, all context and much of American history. So you’re missing the forest for the trees. You’re arguing a technical point without context.

    I take it back to the gas mask/Jewish politician analogy.

    If someone were to do an ad that said: “Joe Lieberman is emitting a lot of noxious nonsense on the public option” and depict a gas mask, there are people who would be (rightfully so in my opinion) very much offended.

    Even though the ad didn’t say, explicitly, “Joe, who is Jewish, should put on this gas mask” it is still offensive.

    That’s why I used the word “pairing” in my original post. Obama and the monkey images are paired within the same attack ad. Maybe it’s fine in certain limited contexts, but whenever that pairing happens people should expect to be called racist.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  208. Bullying those who ask this question

    Kumbaya: No one’s bullying Birthers. We’re just calling nonsense what it is: Nonsense. Free speech goes both ways. That’s what’s great about it.

    Birthers are free to make crackpot claims. Others are free to note the claims are crackpot.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  209. I found several comments from JD and Dustin in the spam filter. I released them but forgot to add a note on a few of the comments. I apologize if this causes confusion and please note that it will change the numbering of comments above.

    DRJ (dee47d)

  210. Myron.

    I agree with free speech. I agree we can all disagree.

    But what, specifically, makes the question nonsense? Specifically, why is this a crackpot claim?

    There is literally no evidence that can be produced to counter the claim. Everything is either sealed or simply not produced.

    Fed up with Kumbaya BS (313333)

  211. Obama and the monkey images are paired within the same attack ad. Maybe it’s fine in certain limited contexts, but whenever that pairing happens people should expect to be called racist.

    And thus, you’re saying, whenever the “See No Evil” chimps are appropriately invoked as a criticism of a person, they suddenly become off limits if that person is black.

    Right?

    Patterico (64318f)

  212. Now you are fucking lying, Myron.

    Quel surprise.

    Kathleen Parker, a conservative

    Kathleeen Parker – Conservative? Now that’s a bald – faced lie if I ever heard one.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  213. Still waiting on you to show me where I said racism is dead, Myron.

    Sorry about the f-bombs, DRJ. Myron lying kind of pissed me off.

    JD (9e41b2)

  214. Patterico – He stated above that these charges are dependent on the politics of the utterer and the target.

    JD (9e41b2)

  215. 2 & 3/4 hours, 67 comments (at least half, probably more, from M_ron)….

    Well, at least we know when day-care lets out!

    AD - RtR/OS! (66f601)

  216. “maybe I can show you how shallow you are being.”

    Somehow, I doubt that.

    Our first nine presidents weren’t natural born citizens, and some of them were pretty good presidents, so it doesn’t matter to me whether Barack Obama is or isn’t a natural born citizen. It’s simply not important enough to bother about.

    Anyway, the powers that be have made it clear that they aren’t going to waste their time exploring the matter further, which means that the Birthers are pissing into the wind…and only idiots spend their time pissing into the wind…unless, of course, they actually enjoy getting wet.

    And, of course, there’s nothing racist about that ad. All it really says is: Wah! We’re complaining and everyone is ignoring us!

    Now, if it said, Barack Obama shouldn’t be president because black people are too stupid to be president, then that would be racist…but, that isn’t what it says.

    Dave Surls (430719)

  217. First they came for the monkeys………

    Friggin’ liberal fascists.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  218. 198.MD: I follow points to their logical conclusion, not stop half-way at the most convenient point, which is what most do.
    Comment by Myron — 12/1/2009 @ 4:09 pm

    People who are psychotic think they are the ones who know the truth, too, Myron.

    As an aside: 204. “Kathleen Parker, a conservative”
    That’s the rumor I once heard, too. I’m been unfortunate to read her columns the last few weeks. I am not surprised, though, to learn that you like to quote her, Myron. Her recent columns are so skewed in perspective I wouldn’t know where to begin with her.

    Aside #2, not to back the “birthers”, but I found it interesting a few months ago to find that in PA a certificate of live birth is not adequate documentation to register a child for school. I found that interesting.

    Oh, and to get back to the main point, Myron, you are certainly welcome to your opinion that the said cartoon is racist, and I would respect that as your opinion. I do not, however, respect your contortions and claims to say that you are the one “following logic to its conclusions”. As I said, someone who is psychotic thinks they are the ones with “the truth” also.

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  219. And thus, you’re saying, whenever the “See No Evil” chimps are appropriately invoked as a criticism of a person, they suddenly become off limits if that person is black.

    And yet that would be but one more form of discrimination. Is this what we’ve come to?

    If someone were to do an ad that said: “Joe Lieberman is emitting a lot of noxious nonsense on the public option” and depict a gas mask, there are people who would be (rightfully so in my opinion) very much offended.
    Even though the ad didn’t say, explicitly, “Joe, who is Jewish, should put on this gas mask” it is still offensive.

    Myron, do you realize that there are enormous numbers of people who would not be offended by this, not because they are insensitive but because they don’t live their lives in a perpetual state of stereotyping?

    It would also not occur to them that there was a connection because not everyone lives their life waiting to be offended; even more so, enormous amounts of people refuse to be controlled by the hateful acts of others throughout history and by those who assume if they see something as offensive then we are all obligated to. Except that you are no one’s moral compass.

    New history has been and is being made and to always point back to a specifically hateful period of behavior as the defining moment and reference point of society, keeps it bound in it’s shame. Of course, there will always be things we can look at and automatically tie it in with an historical evil, but it does not have to continue to define us.

    Some seem to have their pre-emptive strike of discrimination accusations in place. It’s built in and it’s those people who *assume* the See-No-Evil monkeys used in criticism of our president would of course be racist; or that a criticism involving a gas mask reference and Lieberman couldn’t possibly be anything but an historical reference of hate.

    Personally, as a person whose skin is brown, I take offense that you in your arrogance attempt to set the standard for my reaction, and I fully reject that. Just because you seem unable to break free from an obligatory, pre-programmed response to these matters, doesn’t mean the rest of us haven’t.

    And for the record, it never even crossed my mind to link a gas mask and Lieberman with the suffering of the Jews, nor seeing the See-No-Evil monkey in the criticism of Obama as anything to do with an historically insulting metaphor for black people. Not once, even remotely, did it occur to me. But I’m really very sorry it did for you.

    Dana (e9ba20)

  220. Now, if it said, Barack Obama shouldn’t be president because black people are too stupid to be president, then that would be racist…but, that isn’t what it says.

    No, instead it throws out a couple of factoids, offers ZERO, ZERO, support for what they’re saying and presents it with all the self-righteousness and faux patriotism of a bunch of retarded illiterate scaredy pants.

    Assclown Pumpkinheads (f0d390)

  221. “Tonight when Obama announces a total and immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan you’ll realize he’s more than a monkey. You’ll realize he’s a man with the balls to admit he was wrong and to do the right thing.”

    Whoops.

    “On the other hand, if he announces an aggressive plan of escalation, in order to eventually get out with dignity, then I’ll realize he’s just a weak puppet to the generals the the pentagon and the conservative know-it-alls. And that will be a sad day for America.”

    Guess you must be feeling pretty sad right about now.

    Dave Surls (00ec4b)

  222. All my life (and I’m pretty old) I have seen the monkeys .. see no evil/ speak, hear. Never have I considered it might be racist. Possibly Myron is too young to remember.

    Glad I’m not the only one that thinks Kathleen Parker is not conservative. She used to be, but since Obama came on the scene, she, along with Peggy Noonan, has definitely switched to the other side.

    PatAZ (9d1bb3)

  223. they suddenly become off limits if that person is black.

    P: No. I’m saying that some people will call you racist if you in any way compare blacks and monkeys. Does anyone doubt that?

    Back to my initial post. It’s not necessarily fair, but neither was the initial stereotyping that led to the “rule.”

    Myron (6a93dd)

  224. JD: You cannot cite one case of racism anywhere in the last 20 years. I’m deducing you believe it’s dead.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  225. Kathleeen Parker – Conservative? Now that’s a bald – faced lie if I ever heard one.

    Dmac: Unlike you, I’ve read Parker. She appears regularly in my local newspaper. She’s conservative. Just because she’s not a Palin-Limbaugh-DeMint doctrinaire conservative does not make her liberal.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  226. Myron, do you realize that there are enormous numbers of people who would not be offended by this, not because they are insensitive but because they don’t live their lives in a perpetual state of stereotyping?

    Yes, Dana, I do understand that. But that doesn’t mean that they are right not to be offended, and the people who are offended are wrong. My point is simply this: There are certain images that, when used in association with black people are going to be offensive to some people, maybe a lot of people. I don’t really see any value in pretending we don’t know what the images are.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  227. He stated above that these charges are dependent on the politics of the utterer and the target.

    JD: I said nothing of the sort.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  228. MD: I don’t think you understood any of my points, actually. But it’s not from my lack of clarity.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  229. She appears regularly in my local newspaper.

    (the Dayton Shopper Weekly)

    She’s conservative.

    (because I say so!)

    Just because she’s not a Palin-Limbaugh-DeMint doctrinaire conservative does not make her liberal.

    (I use Media Matters Talking Points and furiously construct strawmen to overcome the shallowness of my intellect)

    Dmac (a964d5)

  230. But that doesn’t mean that they are right not to be offended, and the people who are offended are wrong.

    And take it from him – he knows all about the oppressed and easily offended. He reads about them all the time in Reverend Wright’s newsletter.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  231. Myron – Where, exactly, do you get the idea that I cannot cite even one instance of racism in the last 20 years, or that I believe racism is dead, especially when my own words explicitly state that I do not believe racism is dead? Like I said, once was a mistake, now it is a fucking damn lie.

    JD (b06bc2)

  232. Where, exactly, do you get the idea that I cannot cite even one

    JD: Because you haven’t. I’ve asked you, I think, four times.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  233. Fuck you. David Duke. Robert Byrd. Any of the white supremacist bullshit.

    Now, apologize, or admit you lied.

    JD (4dffeb)

  234. Oops. Filtrated. I will try again. Go eff yourself, Myron. David Duke and his ilk were in the last 20 years. Robert Byrd and the white n*gger comment was in the last 20 years. Any of the white supremacist bullsh*t was in the last 20 years. Rev Wright even more recent.

    Now, either apologize, or admit you lied about me.

    JD (4dffeb)

  235. Hey, JD, you know what is funny? These ever-vigilant surveyors of hidden and overt racism where the ones who insisted that the “lipstick on a pig” comment was not a sexist slap toward a certain ex-governor.

    Seems to me that they have quite the eagle eye on one direction, yet are Mr. Magoo in the other.

    It’s just more alphabetism. These folks don’t care a whit about racism. Just ask their opinion on Clarence Thomas.

    Eric Blair (bc43a4)

  236. But that doesn’t mean that they are right not to be offended, and the people who are offended are wrong.

    Myron, I don’t believe this is necessarily an issue of right vs. wrong but I can just as easily says that they are indeed right to not be offended as you can the opposite. So what?

    Some people will and some won’t be offended but the point is there are people who assume that we have to accept gas mask/Lieberman and See-No-Evil monkeys as default positions of racism / derogatory, and that there is no other possibility. Nobody has the right to set that as the standard.

    There are certain images that, when used in association with black people are going to be offensive to some people, maybe a lot of people. I don’t really see any value in pretending we don’t know what the images are.

    Heh. I didn’t know or get or connect the images, Myron, what does that make me? Monkeys and gas masks…you saying we can’t pretend we don’t know the images – and yet we all don’t see it as you. I’d say it was rather bigoted of you to presume we see this as you do.

    Dana (e9ba20)

  237. Hello?! Myron … Want more? The douchebage that called my Better Half a slant-eyed g**k. The guy that was drug behind a truck. Tom indicated in another thread that he participates in racisms. How about blacks hating on Hispanics in the southwest? Still waiting on that apology.

    JD (4dffeb)

  238. . Just ask their opinion on Clarence Thomas.

    He’s a classic, American story of poor kid uses his brain to make good and, because this ain’t Disney, he’s also a porn addict, a prick, and his views on the Constitution are disgusting and haphazard. He doesn’t deserve to hold Scalia’s pen and I loathe Scalia (but at least he’s consistent).

    Roberts is the worst, however. The depth of contempt I have for that oligarchical, arrogant fool is almost boundless.

    Oh, nice to see the basketball manager demanding yet ANOTHER apology. Freakin’ diva.

    timb (8f04c0)

  239. Myron, as a member of our new Illuminati, just wants to set the standards we have to adhere to in these matters. If we don’t agree with him, you all know what that makes us.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  240. timb – The Constitution is a Green Shoot to you.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  241. In 174, Myron confirms my point. He proves racism by assuming it. Circular logic is all he has.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  242. Myron – I see you chose the cowardly way out. Never fear, the creepy stalkerish-type one is here to pick up the slack for you.

    JD (5acd54)

  243. God, JD, you’ve been whining for 36 hours across at least two blogs. Why don’t you just shut up?

    Or, you know, maybe give us a view or two about why you can’t have a normal discussion without taking offense and demanding retractions and apologies and feigning this pathetic, simpleton rage…

    I’m sorry you’re so unhappy that you need apparitions and ghosts on the internet to apologize to make you feel better, but, jesus, have you hijacked this thread enough?

    Is it sad that I prefer srqpuqr guy to you, given how you like to follow me across the internet? At least the Steve Milloy “smoking doesn’t cause cancer” guy believes something. All you do is whine, carp, and bitch about how lefties on the internet are unfair to YOU. Oh, the burden you carry.

    Yeah, diva seems appropriate.

    We now return to a middle aged man demanding apologies from strangers on a digital message board, ie, our regular programming.

    [Meanwhile, I, another, sadly, middle-aged man is going to bed, since there’s nothing good on]

    timb (8f04c0)

  244. Dmac: Unlike you, I’ve read Parker. She appears regularly in my local newspaper. She’s conservative. Comment by Myron — 12/1/2009 @ 7:13 pm

    Unfortunately she is in my local paper too, as I mentioned previously, and I agree with Dmac.

    228.MD: I don’t think you understood any of my points, actually. But it’s not from my lack of clarity. Comment by Myron — 12/1/2009 @ 7:32 pm

    So highly do we think of ourselves and our superior intellect, now do we? Tell you what, pick any available challenge of reasoning skill and I’ll be happy to play.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EkBuKQEkio

    Of course, you may really be smart when you’re not twisting common sense into absurdity, but that’s a chance I’ll take.

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  245. There was a time when I requested everyone show the libturds the respect of referring to them by their given moniker. I have long since dropped that Marquis de Queensbury request as it is not warranted. And if Moron wants to be called something other than a maroon, he might actually try to get all three of his brain cells talking to each other.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  246. and timmah spews forth a long series of alphanumeric characters interspersed with punctuation marks.

    Proof positive regarding that million monkeys pounding million typewriters thing.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  247. Why don’t you just shut up?

    You first, troll.

    Mike LaRoche (c49ddb)

  248. timb – The Constitution is a Green Shoot to you.

    Comment by daleyrocks

    And your understanding comes third-hand from some Rush Limbaugh clone on the internet. Did you get your copy of Men In Black signed by Mark Levin or he did he color one of the pictures in it for you? I heard he’s great with a crayon.

    Jesus, sniped at by a halfwit. At least if Eric responded I would have figured he may have read the damn thing and maybe a decision or two.

    You, not so much

    timb (8f04c0)

  249. timb – I bet I could do better on the Bar Exam than you, cupcake.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  250. Last time I went to the bar, I had to explain what “fire & ice” was… Oh! THAT Bar! Nemind.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  251. Proof positive regarding that million monkeys pounding million typewriters thing.

    Racist

    Patterico (64318f)

  252. I am following you? Good Allah, it is delusional too. And, it is more than a little bit creepy that you are so invested in me that you admit to having tracked my movements on the internet for the last 36 hours, and like to cite back parts of my past as though you know me, or anything about me. You know where to find me, you small little pathetic f*ck. You would never have the stones to talk to me that way in person.

    JD (5acd54)

  253. It’s about time. I mean, after my #13, and one or two others. I tried real hard to get denounced.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  254. Some chump: But you ignore everything else, all context and much of American history. So you’re missing the forest for the trees. You’re arguing a technical point without context.

    I’m not ignoring anything, Myron. You’re the one who is ignoring the truth: that Obama was not compared to apes. That’s the only context that matters.

    Some chump (8087d5)

  255. Ah, look! Timmah found his nuts. And he’s a-squeezin’ them tight.

    Icy Texan (1e35bf)

  256. Hey, I have an idea. If everyone refers to Moron as Moron or Maroon, he might decide there’s no reason to post here anymore.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  257. The douchebage that called my Better Half a slant-eyed g**k. The guy that was drug behind a truck.

    !!!

    I can think of sooooooo many less painful ways to die than to say such about your wife.

    I’ve never met her, and she scares the shit out of me…

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  258. Since Moron wants to make a claim to racist history, let me show some of that racist history. And you’ll even find some of the racist history Moron pointed to.

    October 10, 1871
    Following warnings by Philadelphia Democrats against black voting, African-American Republican civil rights activist Octavius Catto murdered by Democratic Party operative; his military funeral was attended by thousands

    October 18, 1871
    After violence against Republicans in South Carolina, President Ulysses Grant deploys U.S. troops to combat Democrat terrorists who formed the Ku Klux Klan

    November 18, 1872
    Susan B. Anthony arrested for voting, after boasting to Elizabeth Cady Stanton that she voted for “the Republican ticket, straight”

    January 17, 1874
    Armed Democrats seize Texas state government, ending Republican efforts to racially integrate government

    September 14, 1874
    Democrat white supremacists seize Louisiana statehouse in attempt to overthrow racially-integrated administration of Republican Governor William Kellogg; 27 killed

    February 8, 1894
    Democrat Congress and Democrat President Grover Cleveland join to repeal Republicans’ Enforcement Act, which had enabled African-Americans to vote

    January 15, 1901
    Republican Booker T. Washington protests Alabama Democratic Party’s refusal to permit voting by African-Americans

    February 12, 1909
    On 100th anniversary of Abraham Lincoln’s birth, African-American Republicans and women’s suffragists Ida Wells and Mary Terrell co-found the NAACP

    September 30, 1953
    Earl Warren, California’s three-term Republican Governor and 1948 Republican vice presidential nominee, nominated to be Chief Justice; wrote landmark decision in Brown v. Board of Education

    November 25, 1955
    Eisenhower administration bans racial segregation of interstate bus travel

    March 12, 1956
    Ninety-seven Democrats in Congress condemn Supreme Court’s decision in Brown v. Board of Education, and pledge to continue segregation

    June 5, 1956
    Republican federal judge Frank Johnson rules in favor of Rosa Parks in decision striking down “blacks in the back of the bus” law

    November 6, 1956
    African-American civil rights leaders Martin Luther King and Ralph Abernathy vote for Republican Dwight Eisenhower for President

    June 9, 1964
    Republicans condemn 14-hour filibuster against 1964 Civil Rights Act by U.S. Senator and former Ku Klux Klansman Robert Byrd (D-WV), who still serves in the Senate

    Sorry bout the wall-o-text, but morons like Moron continue to point back to a history they continue to deny existed (and still exists today). And I repeatedly pointed to the article I excerpted heavily here. But, again, morons like Moron wouldn’t even deign to link-surf for fear they might actually learn some facts.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  259. Moron

    Re: #161

    Mmm, yeah, the reason why you didn’t respond was because I called you a moron. Not because I pointed out how your arguments perpetuate racial stereotypes and create racial inequalities. Nah, that couldn’t be it.

    Riddle me this, by the way. Do the same rules apply if the author of the ad is black?

    It’s a simple question.

    JD

    Re: 191, wrong child actor, dude. Lol

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  260. Actually, if Dan Riehl meant to evoke Franklin’s famous challenge, then he got it backwards: in that challenge “hanging together” was the only way to avoid the noose! So saying “they should all hang together” is the opposite of calling for a necktie party.

    But I don’t think he was even thinking of that. “To hang” as a generic example of punishment is a common enough figure of speech. We all say “as well hang for a sheep as a lamb”, even if our offenses have nothing to do with stealing livestock, and our anticipated punishment is far less than hanging. We refer to anyone abandoned by his allies as having been “hung out to dry”. And we have plenty more common sayings where that came from — an era when hanging was the standard penalty for pretty much any felony.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  261. timb – I bet I could do better on the Bar Exam than you, cupcake.
    Comment by daleyrocks

    If you pass, they don’t tell you the score…

    The again, what state’s exam are we wagering on?

    timb (449046)

  262. You know where to find me, you small little pathetic f*ck. You would never have the stones to talk to me that way in person.

    I do? Dear lord, you’re delusional too. Should I apologize for not knowing? You know, I want to be consistent with all your other dealings with people who disagree with you, otherwise your finely honed sense of pique might be mis-directed.

    What sort of man-child threatens to fight someone? Who are you? Goldstein’s sock puppet?

    timb (449046)

  263. timb, you don’t have anything to contribute to the thread but this sort of personal attack.

    I don’t understand why someone would let it get under their skin, but that’s what you aimed to do, so bravo.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  264. Tim, I’d stay away from JD if I were you. I’ve met him. I haven’t met you but I have gotten a sense of your manly qualities. I would suggest you avoid him.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  265. Also, it’s a bit of a shame that we don’t have duels. If men would routinely challenge eachother to a refereed boxing match, the world would be a better place.

    Timb, you seem to be obsessed with JD. that creepy behavior can be interpreted as threatening, even to tough guys, because the internet opens up a lot of possibilities for harm. Wouldn’t it be better for you and JD to put on some boxing gloves and have a fair fight?

    Dustin (cf255c)

  266. Dustin-

    I suggested duels a while back, primarily for political debate among elected officials, though I suggested the sword, not the fist. For some reason, nk tried to convince me it was a bad idea.

    Maybe lawyers would all need to take up fencing, as “representing your client” would become being his/her stand-in for the duel.

    That would encourage going the mediation route, I bet.

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  267. Well, for truth finding, duels aren’t going to do a very good job. The democrats own all the paid thugs, after all. We just have ‘don’t tread on me stickers’ and more ammo.

    But for dealing with egos and macho stuff, a good sporting match, boxing or really any sport, can do a lot of good. We are too nice to bullies.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  268. That’s why I suggested fencing (among other reasons). Thugs would need to “de-thug” themselves somewhat to be able to fence in a refereed bout.

    But our thoughts are similar, my thinking of duels in Congress was more about calling people “liars” and such- (hopefully Joe Wilson fences well!). Chaney would not have needed to use foul language, no matter how justified; just take out the glove and thwack backhanded across the face.

    Although the hand-to-hand does have some merit, come to think of it. I’m sure Chuck Norris would be willing to be the trainer/coach for the conservatives.

    MD in Philly (227f9c)

  269. timb – Never did I threaten to fight you, or even suggest physical violence. That is something you made up out of whole cloth. I simply stated that you would never have the stones to say the things you do about me to my face, as you are a snivelling little coward, and have no honor. And I was right.

    Now, you may resume following me around the internet. Pretty pathetic.

    JD (4e0002)

  270. that’s actually kinda what I’m getting at.

    People are tremendously ugly on the internet, and wouldn’t be if it was standard practice to have some kind of real interaction with internet trolls. I guess it’s great that we have anonymity, but it’s an expensive thing.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  271. Feign innocence now, eh? Okay.

    “You know where to find me.” “Don’t have the, stones” etc

    Gee, where would I get the idea you were looking for a physical confrontation? Silly me.

    Oh, and Dustin, thanks for the parroting skills. You add a lot to any conversation.

    Mike, did JD demand apologies from waiters and strangers on the street when you gals were out on the town?

    timb (449046)

  272. I demanded an apology from Myron, who continued to lie about me, despite having been corrected repeatedly.

    Apparently, the leftists have developed this construct where they get to call names, make accusations, etc … designed to denigrate a person (Racist/homophobe) and these charges are serious. When one chooses to defend against said charges, they then turn and accuse you of having thin skin, being a whiner, and a diva, because someone told an objective lie about you. Convenient, that.

    I am not feigning ignorance. You are ignorant. You are making things up. You chose to inject physical violence into a statement that did not make any implication towards physical violence. It is the way you operate. Now, back to ignoring you, while you continue to engage in your creepy stalker-esque activities, following me around the internet.

    Best wishes to you.

    JD (4e0002)

  273. Yeah, Dustin, you’re addressing, in JD, one of the meanest, nastiest character on the internet.

    So, I’m betting the irony is lost on you. Nonetheless, as he struts around here bullying the “trolls,” you might want to note that he always brings this salient point to every discussion:

    [pst, Dustin, it’s blank! Get it, dude adds insults and that’s it. I’m not even sure he knows anything about politics. ]

    timb (449046)

  274. Timb, I don’t really care that JD was mean to you. You clearly were trying to egg him on, and I agree with him that you brought violence into the discussion, when he simply pointed out the fact that you wouldn’t act this way in person.

    Your argument with him is an penis measuring one, and I think the best way to handle that is on a basketball court, or a golf course, or a boxing ring.

    I’ve seen mean and nasty characters on the internet, and while I do think JD is not being nice to you, I do not think he’s approaching any kind of threshold of horror.

    Dustin (cf255c)

  275. I think timmah needs to construct a balloon fence around himself. For comfort, if for no other reason.

    Slartibartfast (60406d)

  276. Mike, did JD demand apologies from waiters and strangers on the street when you gals were out on the town?

    Comment by timb

    Actually, we had lunch in Harry Caray’s restaurant and met Ernie Banks, ex-Cub and gentleman. I would stay away from that place, Tim. There looked like a bunch of manly types in there. Not your kind of place.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  277. basketball court, or a golf course, or a boxing ring.

    In order, Dustin, I accept, I decline (I would not want him to ruin a good walk spoiled), and I accept.

    JD (4a5c67)

  278. Thank you, Dr. Mike. That was one of the most enjoyable lunches I have shared in some time.

    JD (4a5c67)

  279. How many times today, jd, have you mentioned me at the place that cannot be named? Who stalks whom?

    timb (449046)

  280. I get it, timmah. You’re in love with JD. It’s a shame, really. For you, love is a gas station and you’re forced to use the self service pump.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)


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