Terrorist Who Planned Torture Murder Complains of Fat Lip
Fox News reports that the guy who planned the torture murder of four Americans in Fallujah is now upset that he has a fat lip — and the people who gave it to him are being prosecuted by the military:
Navy SEALs have secretly captured one of the most wanted terrorists in Iraq — the alleged mastermind of the murder and mutilation of four Blackwater USA security guards in Fallujah in 2004. And three of the SEALs who captured him are now facing criminal charges, sources told FoxNews.com.
The three, all members of the Navy’s elite commando unit, have refused non-judicial punishment — called an admiral’s mast — and have requested a trial by court-martial.
Ahmed Hashim Abed, whom the military code-named “Objective Amber,” told investigators he was punched by his captors — and he had the bloody lip to prove it.
Reading between the lines, apparently the fat lip didn’t occur during a rough detention of the scumbag; instead, it appears the three are accused of tuning him up after he was arrested:
FoxNews.com obtained the official handwritten statement from one of the three witnesses given on Sept. 3, hours after Abed was captured and still being held at the SEAL base at Camp Baharia. He was later taken to a cell in the U.S.-operated Green Zone in Baghdad.
The SEAL told investigators he had showered after the mission, gone to the kitchen and then decided to look in on the detainee.
“I gave the detainee a glance over and then left,” the SEAL wrote. “I did not notice anything wrong with the detainee and he appeared in good health.”
Allahpundit writes:
I like Goldfarb’s take: “A fat lip? That’s enough to get you rough military justice from the Obama administration, but blow up the World Trade Center and you get all the due process rights of the civilian criminal justice system.”
Yeah — you get those rights if the government thinks it can win.
I know this is not a case that should be in federal court — but neither is KSM’s case. So just as a mental exercise, ask yourself: what chance do you think the government would have bringing a case like this to a jury?
As my judge used to say: between Slim and None — and Slim just left the building.
Just for the sake of accuracy, and I’m making the assumption absent anything to the contrary that the SEALs involved are enlisted men, the level of Non-Judicial Punishment (NJP) they have refused is Captain’s Mast. Admiral’s Mast is reserved for officers. However, it is accurate that both officers and enlisteds can refuse their appropriate level of NJP and request a trial by court-martial, which is what I would advise in this instance. On some level, it’s a shame Abed didn’t attempt to escape!
JL (274f21) — 11/25/2009 @ 7:46 amSome milblogs disagree with Allah because Special Ops are held to super-strict standards and if the SEALs are not entirely exonerated they will no longer be SEALs even though no other punishment is imposed.
nk (df76d4) — 11/25/2009 @ 8:16 amChilling Effect! How do you think Navy Seals and Special Forces Ops are going to act in the future based upon this total bullshit? As a result of this chilling effect men will die. Screw the terrorist bastard, they should not have punched him, they should have relieved him of his acute lead definciency by inserting an emergency lead enema right between his eyes!
If we can’t name our enemy, if we can’t be aggressive with our enemy and punish our enemy, then we’re a bunch of panty-waisted wussies who don’t deserve to survive and we won’t survive. Anyone seen the History Channel WWII in HD? Did you see what we did to the Japanese soldiers? We burned them alive with flamethrowers. War is war. We are either in a War and should fight a War, or we’re dead.
J. Raymond Wright (d83ab3) — 11/25/2009 @ 8:21 amBTW, a week ago, my daughter was being bullied by a boy her age and she gave him a fat lip with the plastic toy he kept snatching out of her hand. (He does that to little girls, a friend of my daughter’s punched him out for the same thing last year.)
I was torn. It’s not a good thing to hit somebody in the face with a hard object but, on the other hand, if she had punched him she might have hurt her hand. 😉
nk (df76d4) — 11/25/2009 @ 8:22 amnk, I don’t get that. They redefine ‘slap on the wrist’ to mean ‘career ender’. Clearly, those terms are opposites.
But really, these guys signed the dotted line. They have to obey orders. If they didn’t obey orders, of course they have to be corrected somehow. They opted out of non judicial punishment on their own, and that’s why any slap on the wrist will end their career. I suspect they have a good reason for that, but all the bashing of AP doesn’t make much sense to me.
It’s OK to be critical of the concept of soldiers failing to follow basic orders, though that’s not even what AP did. He just laid out what the Army was up to, and why. He’s right that the Army is under pressure to show other soldiers that this conduct isn’t tolerated. It’s unfortunate, but it’s not like AP is saying these guys should lose their careers over this mistake.
People lose their cool all the time, and it’s obviously understandable in this case, but the fact that these SEALs are held to a high standard of discipline is not a super great reason to bash AP, IMO.
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 8:26 amoh, and insert caveat that terrorists are under orders themselves: to make up this kind of accusation. I don’t have any reason to think these SEALs are guilty, precisely because they are reliable when it comes to obeying this kind of order.
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 8:27 amDustin, I guess you’re referring to Uncle Jimbo’s post that Allah linked to. I agree that Uncle Jimbo and his commenters could have used more restrained language. Personally, I like Allah and I don’t hate him if he is wrong. Just that the whole story stinks, which is Patterico’s point, and I’m sorry that Allah seemed to be downplaying the significance to our sailors.
nk (df76d4) — 11/25/2009 @ 8:31 amThe whole story does stink. Allahpundit did not really go into why, you’re 100% right. But he did go into why, from my POV, by linking others who wanted to go into it.
It’s more of a shame that they decided to make this about AP than it is that AP decided to link blackfive on why this is disgusting than go into it in his own words.
I’m torn on this. I know these SEALs are heroes who just scored a huge victory and risked their lives to do it. I know, if they are even guilty, that the terrorist had it coming, and this is just not that big of a deal in a war where people get burned to death or blown up or shot. I don’t really want SEALs who don’t want to give fat lips to these monsters, do I? they aren’t perfect, and that this became an international political problem so quickly is ridiculous.
Anyway, just a lousy situation that could be easily dealt with if commanders had the balls to say ‘I talked to them, and the issue is not closed, they made a mistake; it’s over’. That’s not the real world anymore, and it would be if we took this war effort as seriously as we should.
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 8:43 amtypo, I meant: Anyway, just a lousy situation that could be easily dealt with if commanders had the balls to say ‘I talked to them, and the issue is now closed, they made a mistake; it’s over’.
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 8:44 amAn addendum to Dustin’s comment. Making up “abuse” by your captor’s is STRAIGHT OUT of the AQ playbook. I find it hard to believe that the “Detained Gentleman” would NOT use it.
Todd (89b67d) — 11/25/2009 @ 8:45 amTodd, it would be more surprising if these bastards didn’t make up this kind of abuse. It’s amazing to me that we give these serial war criminals any respect. Taking their word of honor for any fact is simply ridiculous. If they weren’t wearing a uniform on the battlefield, they are already guilty of war crimes and though it sounds rash and extreme, must be executed in order to preserve the laws of war. We are really encouraging the worst by not following that convention.
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 8:51 amJust shortly after 9/11 my pregant wife and I had to fly. The airplane book I took with me was Blackhawk Down. A lot there, but most especially two Delta Force operators, volunteering to protect a downed helicopter crew, and dying.
nk (df76d4) — 11/25/2009 @ 8:56 amThere is nothing rash and extreme about it. They are enemy combatants, not in a distinguishable uniform, on a battlefield, disobeying the laws of war. Last time I looked at the GC (before hanging up my boots) that “category” is not among the protected persons listed.
Todd (89b67d) — 11/25/2009 @ 9:01 amI expect that the terrorist inflicted the damage on himself, in order to make the accusation.
I wonder if the SEALS wanted a court martial because they don’t really trust their officers to take their word against that of a terrorist, in these politically correct times. That has already happened, in that charges have been brought. A Mast would probably result in punishment that none of them deserve.
By going to a court martial, they will create a record which will show that there is no evidence that any particular one of them inflicted the fat lip. They will all testify that none of them saw or did it. No panel will dare to take the terrorist’s word alone where there is a record of the proceedings.
punditius (c208b9) — 11/25/2009 @ 9:16 amThe trials in New York have nothing to do with “rights” or procedure or even venue. They have to do with trying the Bush administration over its harsh treatment of KSM and the others.
Apparently Holder thinks that once the American people know what dastardly tortures KSM was subjected to, the will be aghast. None so blind….
Kevin Murphy (3c3db0) — 11/25/2009 @ 9:20 amPunditius has an excellent point. The SEALS may be using the “light of day” to effectively kill this tactic so that AQ won’t be able to use it again
Todd (89b67d) — 11/25/2009 @ 9:22 amI remember all the dire “another Viet Nam” warnings we heard prior to the Iraq and Afghan deployments. I remember thinking, ‘Oh, surely we’ve learned that lesson – surely we won’t let that happen.’ Of course, that was before the Liberals took charge of the war machinery.
I also remember, only too too well, walking out on patrol with the Company Gunny standing at the wire to make sure all weapons were unloaded as we left the compound. I remember cussing my buttons for holding me too high off the ground while we received incoming from Laos and were forbidden from returning fire. I remember watching a line of villagers carrying bags of rice into the jungle – watching because we hadn’t been shot at (yet!) and we were not in a ‘free-fire’ zone.
“Surely,” I thought, “we’ve learned that lesson.”
Guess not.
Robert N. (cf99dd) — 11/25/2009 @ 9:22 amI don’t think this guy was “punched” by a SEAL; he likely would have had a broken jaw and concussion if he was, at least loose teeth. Might he have been handled a little rougher than a child in Sunday School? Probably. Or as said above, maybe it was self inflicted. If so, boy do they have the higher ups pegged.
BTW, Uncle Jimbo has calmed down and apologized for going a bit overboard on Allah
http://www.blackfive.net/main/
If anything happens to these guys, what in the world do you think other spec. ops soldiers would think? I can’t imagine it would be pretty. Forcing wide-spread retirement from Spec. Ops., just one more way of making the world secure- for the bad guys.
MD in Philly (227f9c) — 11/25/2009 @ 9:22 amIt is almost as if this administration has decided to act out every caricature that the Republicans have (successfully) run against since President Merkin Muffley.
Kevin Murphy (3c3db0) — 11/25/2009 @ 9:27 amThe validity of the charges against the SEALs doesn’t matter at all, it’s a distraction. (Certainly, it matters to the accused, but that’s not my point here.) Clearly, there’s no reason to assume they hit Abed, any more than to assume he did it to himself, and who cares?
Who will ever know for sure either way, and really, who cares one way or the other? It ain’t no big thing.
However, the charges are a big deal, and the real purpose in bringing them is to demoralize us, our citizens and our armed forces. It’s part of the Psi Ops war being waged against us at home, and carried to our troops in the field.
When we see such idiot, nitpicking, piddling, charges brought against our boys by our own government, we, and they, must ask, Why?
Why? In the name of common sense and reason why should anyone risk their life for a nation of cowardly back stabbing, dirty low-down, turncoats bent on coddling the enemy, while first politicizing and then dithering over straight forward military decisions?
The answer is that these charges, like the NY trial of KSM, are part of Obama’s campaign to undermine US strength by dividing us against ourselves.
Our defense begins by acknowledging the imperative utility of one of the oldest and most well known dictums in the written history of conflict: Sun Tzu said, “Know thy enemy.”
ropelight (8b675c) — 11/25/2009 @ 9:41 amWhat everyone is failing to make note of is this slug only claimed abuse at the hands of the SEALs AFTER he was turned over to the Iraqis. Now, we all know that considering the treatment that the Iraqis, themselves, have been known to give prisoners, I am sure there is no doubt in anyone’s mind that the Iraqis treated this guy with kid gloves, right?
Also, someone needs to hand those who are bring these charges a copy of the captured al Qaeda manual that gives exact instructions to terrorist wannabes that if they are captured by the U.S.military, they should immediately claim abuse.
It seems the insane is running the asylum.
retire05 (48ecd0) — 11/25/2009 @ 9:43 amCourt martials don’t go before juries? Trials don’t involve empaneling a jury? Seriously, my UCMJ experience is limited to reading about the Haditha trial and watching “A Few Good Men,” but my understanding is that the accused can request a jury of officers, much like a civilian can request a jury in criminal court.
Oh, and Goldfarb is a tool, as usual. Yes, Mikey, Obama has replaced every member of the Armed Forces with members of ACORN and they are running sensitivity training sessions instead of missions. Obama himself ordered these men tried for beating up a prisoner.
Michael certainly earned the reputation of being the worst of McCain’s staff hires….which says an awful lot about his “writing.”
timb (449046) — 11/25/2009 @ 9:48 amAnother point that needs emphasis is that the SEALs and other Special Forces units are made up of long term enlisted in high grades and that officers, in almost all cases, move through on the way to other assignments. In other words, the SEALs and other Special Forces are made up of these enlisted guys who stay there for years. If anyone wanted to damage their mission, the way to do this is to attack the enlisted heart of the unit, not officers,.
Mike K (addb13) — 11/25/2009 @ 9:51 amComment by retire05 — 11/25/2009 @ 9:43 am
The most devastating “fifth column” in the U.S. historically has been REMF’s – the damage they do goes far and wide.
AD - RtR/OS! (b005ed) — 11/25/2009 @ 9:54 amropelight is right.
If the command wanted to, they could look at this evidence and decide that the word of a terrorist is simply insufficient evidence. They could drop the charges.
If they have more evidence than that, they need to tell us what it is, right now.
However, I do think that disobeying orders is serious enough to warrant some discipline. It’s hard to drop the charges on the basis of this not being serious enough, when really, these men should be held to a high standard. Their sentence should really be a wrist slap, not a career ender, and I realize that’s very unrealistic, but now is the time to make that adjustment to our military legal system.
In other words, assuming these SEALs are guilty (which I don’t believe), let’s say the Court Martial sentences the assaulter to 7 days confinement, and the other two to RTD. Obama is the commander in chief, and could easily mandate that this type of sentence does not have a permanent consequence on the careers of these men, and that they be returned to duty. In short, a true slap on the wrist. There’s no legal reason why SEALs who make this kind of human error must forfeit their livelihood.
It’s time to go ahead and make that change. We’re in a real war, and we can’t throw away our troops who make this kind of mistake anymore. It’s impractical and wrong.
I see Jimbo keeps repeating this ‘slap on the wrist = career termination’ attack against ‘beta male’. That’s the opposite of what AP meant, and we all know it. AP clearly meant, by slap on the wrist, something that wouldn’t have a permanenet effect. It sucks that our government’s orwellian style has conflated these polar opposites, but no one really thinks Allah wants these SEALs to lose their careers. So why keep up that attack? Also, why keep up this ‘beta male’ crap? My right to criticize the manner in which I am protected, expecting troops to follow orders, does not derive from my honorable discharge hanging on my wall.
Jimbo’s other attack is that Allah should have noted that this is “chickenshit”. He’s right about that. Pretty valid disagreement about how this should be reported, though I think AP giving Jimbo’s post equal time does the job in an honorable fashion.
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 9:59 amMike K, with SEALs in particular, the actual fighters are nearly always enlisted. You just don’t see SEAL Captains in a fire zone. And I think that’s the proper way to do things, but we need to recognize that there is a world of difference between an enlisted SEAL and an officer SEAL, though both are heroic and superhuman.
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 10:02 amPersonally, I have no problem with some SEAL’s roughing up a terrorist. Hell, they kill them all the time.
Hondo (eb6164) — 11/25/2009 @ 10:25 amHow many more straws can the camel’s back bear? I know I sound crazy – believing our President is purposefully doing this to undermine our country – but I’m having a very difficult time coming up with good rationale to the contrary.
I understand issues like abortion and death sentences have sides and I can understand the other side. Gun control and immigration issues – I get it. Others may not agree with my points but at least they can understand my point of view.
But issues like this one just don’t make sense; especially now, with the gitmo show trials. Perhaps I’m becoming addle-minded.
Corwin (ea9428) — 11/25/2009 @ 10:41 amDustin,
It sounds like you are correct in theory about what a “slap on the wrist” could mean, but on what basis would you think that Obama would want to do anything other than try to make points with “the world” and sell our own soldiers down the river (likely the Niagra)?
Maybe there are ex special ops who read this. I’ve known one SEAL and one Delta over the years. I’ll repeat for those who may not have read my earlier point. A “fat lip” does not sound like the result of an encounter with one. (No insult intended for those of you who have also served in the military.) (For crying out loud, come to think of it, I’ve never been in the military and I’m over 50 and out of shape, and if I was in the position and provoked to violence with this fellow he probably would have more than a “swollen lip”.)
MD in Philly (227f9c) — 11/25/2009 @ 10:51 amAny record of judicial punishment in their “jacket” will mean the end of their careers…
AD - RtR/OS! (b005ed) — 11/25/2009 @ 10:54 amno further promotion, and with that lack of promotion, the old “up or out” rule comes into play.
I think a SEAL could give a fat lip instead of some horrible overkill facial destruction, if they wanted to be subtle.
I met a former SEAL, and he was the nicest fella. HUGE arms.
Corwin, you’re 100% right that it’s totally unrealistic to expect Obama to fix this basic problem in our military. We really do need a bona fide ‘slap on the wrist’ capability. We’re in a hard war and we don’t need to shoot ourselves in the foot. If these SEALs did this (of course, I don’t buy that), then we need a way to correct them for breaking orders, without throwing them away or dishonoring their heroism. That’s just plain obvious… we need these kinds of people badly right now.
But when I keep saying that, and noting that Slap on the Wrist is the opposite of career termination, except in the orwellian government world, I do not mean to imply that I realistically expect Obama to see to it that these men’s careers are preserved. If he gave a speech today, saying that they are going to keep their careers, no matter the outcome, because we don’t need to keep throwing away our heroes when they aren’t perfect, I don’t see the downside for Obama or the USA. I am sure Obama does, though.
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 10:57 amAD, that’s true. And I’m saying that really ought to change. The President could simply slip a piece of paper into these men’s files saying that this judicial issue should be held against them.
Yeah, that’s extremely unrealistic. But regardless, we need to fight this war with our best fighting assets. I don’t even think these people are guilty, but even if they are, there’s a tremendously valuable SEAL or three whose career ought to be salvaged completely.
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 11:07 amobvious typo. ‘should NOT be held against them’
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 11:08 amOnce more we disregard history, and face its’ repeat:
I went into a public-‘ouse to get a pint o’ beer,
The publican ‘e up an’ sez, “We serve no red-coats here.”
The girls be’ind the bar they laughed an’ giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an’ to myself sez I:
O it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, go away”;
But it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but ‘adn’t none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-‘alls,
But when it comes to fightin’, Lord! they’ll shove me in the stalls!
For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, wait outside”;
But it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide,
The troopship’s on the tide, my boys, the troopship’s on the tide,
O it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide.
Yes, makin’ mock o’ uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an’ they’re starvation cheap;
An’ hustlin’ drunken soldiers when they’re goin’ large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin’ in full kit.
Then it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, ‘ow’s yer soul?”
But it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll.
We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don’t grow into plaster saints;
While it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, fall be’ind”,
But it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind,
There’s trouble in the wind, my boys, there’s trouble in the wind,
O it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind.
You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all:
AD - RtR/OS! (b005ed) — 11/25/2009 @ 11:10 amWe’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace.
For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!
I think he tripped.
DRJ (dee47d) — 11/25/2009 @ 11:28 amAD – RtR/OS! – you Kiple in a timely manner, and most refreshingly !
Alasdair (205079) — 11/25/2009 @ 11:30 amYou’re Welcome!
AD - RtR/OS! (b005ed) — 11/25/2009 @ 11:37 amMaybe I am out of touch. I served from 1956 to 1965 and was a veteran’s representative from 1973 to 1987. I represented more than 1,100 individuals before military review boards for discharge review.
I cannot see how non-judicial punishment coud have a carer ending effect. I received two NJP’s during my nine years of service – I probably could have “won” the cases before a Court-Martial but that, even if I was found not guilty, would be a permanent part of my record.
NJP, on the other hand, is a commander’s way, in most cases, of protecting a valued individual from greater punishment. The record of NJP stays with the unit and is not a part of the individual’s permanent records after one year. Once the individual accepts NJP, the “double jeopardy” rules apply. I cannot understand why the SEALs did not take the Captain’s Mast.
Longwalker (996c34) — 11/25/2009 @ 11:42 amAhmed Hashim Abed should be charged with assault, for repeatedly bashing his face onto the defenseless hands of his captors.
AD - RtR/OS! (b005ed) — 11/25/2009 @ 11:44 amComment by Longwalker — 11/25/2009 @ 11:42 am
Because they were innocent?
AD - RtR/OS! (b005ed) — 11/25/2009 @ 11:45 amInnocence? And a determination to prove it?
Rob Crawford (04f50f) — 11/25/2009 @ 11:47 amSome caller to the Limbaugh show said today that this was a reprisal for shooting and killing the teen pirate a while back, when Obama was first elected, because they were not ordered to shoot to kill. I just heard part of the call but that was the gist.
Patricia (b05e7f) — 11/25/2009 @ 12:04 pmBTW it has been really difficult, slow, to get into this site for a week. Is it just my browser?
[I’m sorry and I know it’s frustrating for all of us. I think it primarily occurs when there is added the traffic — sometimes from links and other times from spam you don’t see. And sometimes we have to reboot and that temporarily slows things down, too. — DRJ]
Patricia (b05e7f) — 11/25/2009 @ 12:10 pmMike K, with SEALs in particular, the actual fighters are nearly always enlisted.
That was my point. Was it not clear ? Officers do not stay with the unit for years the way the noncoms do.
Mike K (addb13) — 11/25/2009 @ 12:18 pmI was waiting for timb to say something stupid, and he didn’t disappoint.
Hey, has anyone asked did this terrorist give himself the fat lip?
Personally, I’d take Mr. Terrorist out for a date with a Barnes Triple-Shock X slug propelled by Alliant Reloader #15.
PCD (1d8b6d) — 11/25/2009 @ 12:26 pmMike, you were totally clear. I wasn’t trying to correct you.
Patricia, I really hope you’re wrong about that. It’s hard to believe, but what isn’t these days? That little pirate episode made Obama look like a real president for a few hours.
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 12:32 pm“I cannot understand why the SEALs did not take the Captain’s Mast.”
Because there’s no trust.
It starts with the fact that this charge is being given official notice. In today’s climate under Obama, the reason it’s being given official notice is that Obama has decided that known terrorists have the same moral standing as anyone else. The bureaucracy that the military is will react to that. Ergo, an officer who disregards the smallest, most obviously false accusation from a terrorist risks discipline himself.
But this is exactly the kind of situation in which officers should take that risk. But they aren’t.
I think these SEALs realize that the path of least resistance for the Captain’s Mast will be to discipline them. The fact that the charges have been brought at all demonstrates that the Mast will follow that path.
And that’s unacceptable to an honorable man. So they have upped the ante – “prove it.”
What needs to happen now is for a superior officer to overrule the lower officers’ decision to bring these charges at all. They have failed in their judgment.
punditius (c208b9) — 11/25/2009 @ 12:33 pm#38 Longwalker
I only know what I read. If you want to pursue your question, the folks at Blackfive could have an intelligent conversation with you.
MD in Philly (227f9c) — 11/25/2009 @ 12:34 pmHow do you think Navy Seals and Special Forces Ops are going to act in the future based upon this total bullshit?
As you would expect them to – that is, do the interrogations quickly after taking prisoners, then summarily execute them on the spot. No muss, no fuss.
As a result of this chilling effect men will die
Yes, but only the terrorists in this instance.
Dmac (a964d5) — 11/25/2009 @ 12:45 pmDmac – silly commenter ! No ‘terrorists’ will die because of it – only spies as codified in the Geneva Convention … that *is* the goal of the President and his DOJ is it not ?
Alasdair (7dc63b) — 11/25/2009 @ 12:53 pmBTW it has been really difficult, slow, to get into this site for a week. Is it just my browser.
My screen is always telling me that’s waiting for some pic to load…maybe there’s just too many graphics, along with the traffic.
AD - RtR/OS! (b005ed) — 11/25/2009 @ 12:54 pm“I cannot understand why the SEALs did not take the Captain’s Mast.”
There are a couple reasons why you don’t understand it. First and foremost is the fact that things changed a lot since you served. I had a couple trips to Captain’s Mast on my first enlistment and still was able to clean up my act and make it to Master Chief. Now a days, a sailor screws up like I did and they wouldn’t be allowed to reenlist. The other thing you are missing is these are not guys on their first enlistment. These guys are likely careerists who could lose a paygrade and up to a half months pay for two months at NJP. Try making Chief with a recent NJP on your record. Not gonna happen. Maybe they realize the rules of evidence don’t apply at NJP.
Largebill (1d1579) — 11/25/2009 @ 12:55 pmdmac, I hope to hell you’re right, but we didn’t learn about the library towers attacks on the battlefield. We had to waterboard a terrorist, in carefully controlled conditions, to save those thousands of innocents.
It really doesn’t make any sense to preserve these monsters, unless there’s intelligent to be gained. I hope Obama’s lucky enough to avoid the consequences of his 9/10 thinking.
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 1:05 pmSome caller to the Limbaugh show said today that this was a reprisal for shooting and killing the teen pirate a while back, when Obama was first elected, because they were not ordered to shoot to kill. I just heard part of the call but that was the gist.
Patricia, I heard the caller. It caught my ear because he had been a SEAL for a decade and is currently doing something or another in the government, and he also had inside information from different sources that continued to reinforce his theory.
He believes that the administration (President) was so angry that the SEALS shot and killed, that this is payback. He also pointed out however, that this was in spite of the fact that the president received accolades and high marks across the board for the outcome – and took full credit for it… The takeaway from his believe seemed to be: anger the president and there will be payback – no matter how good he ended up looking.
Another point this caller made was that precisely because of Tailhook, the military officers have completely submitted themselves to a politically correct military. They are too afraid to do otherwise. Thus there can be no innocuous slap on the wrist, nor a statement of support for the SEALS from their superiors.
(Again, it must mentioned, that precisely because of this politically correct military, the Ft. Hood terror was not prevented.)
Dana (e9ba20) — 11/25/2009 @ 1:14 pmI wish I had heard this caller.
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 1:18 pmDustin — 11/25/2009 @ 1:05 pm
I hope
Obama’sthe country’s lucky enough to avoid the consequences of his 9/10 thinking.Fixed it for you 🙂
Red County Pete (dcd394) — 11/25/2009 @ 1:25 pmOf course, that’s what I really hope, but this is one of those times where I hope Obama doesn’t fail. I usually want him to fail, but on this sort of thing, the best I can hope for is dumb luck.
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 1:34 pmI want the military to give terrorists fat lips, black eyes, and whatever else it takes to protect our country. If the Commander in Chief won’t step up, someone has to.
Rochf (ae9c58) — 11/25/2009 @ 2:01 pmI probably shouldn’t bother with this, since I’m pretty sympathetic to the idea of punching the terrorist myself, but how many of you really do want SEALs to punch a restrained, captured detainee?
I don’t. But because it’s unprofessional. not because, on the chart of rights and wrongs, this is really unjustified. These people really do deserve that Chuck Norris swaggering punch in the lip, met with applause.
I feel like a lot of folks have completely abandoned the idea of turning the middle east into South Korea, Japan, and Germany. Iraq is a theocracy, and Afghanistan is a lawless nothing from Beyond Thunderdome. So we’re not really bothering with hearts and minds? Then what’s the future of the war on terror? Just to permanently wage this war of containment, until they get lucky enough to hit us harder than ever? Not bashing that view… just curious.
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 2:37 pmSo now you mention Blackwater?
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091123/scahill
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091207/scahill
And no mention of the lawsuit by the families of the four dead contractors.
bored again (d80b5a) — 11/25/2009 @ 3:00 pmYou bring up an interesting point, but I would tend to think that this incident reminds us that too many of our military personnel seem to be increasingly under threat of prosecution if they don’t abide by The Marques of Queensbury Rules. We’re in a war, not a police action – the sooner this administration understands this, the better off we’ll all be in the end.
Dmac (a964d5) — 11/25/2009 @ 3:01 pm^comment above in response to Dustin, not Troll Plankton.
Dmac (a964d5) — 11/25/2009 @ 3:04 pmIndeed.
If the thugs who sawed off captives’ heads, like what was done to Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl, were captured, I would not mind if they received the Edward II treatment. Our troops should not deliver such treatment, because it is highly prejudicial to discipline and good order.
Michael Ejercito (6a1582) — 11/25/2009 @ 3:13 pmLargebill : My first NJP occurred while I was a junior instructor with the Rangers. We had a new M/Sgt join the unit and, because of his rank, he was put in charge of the Friendly Front Lines group. We were running five patrols of Ranger students on a night recon mission. All of the FFL personnel were very experienced, even I, the most junior, had about five cycles worth of experience, and this new M/SGt was doing nothing but calling for commo checks every fifteen minutes. As we were operating in mountian country with old radios, I was trying to concentrate on what the patrol from my position was doing not on responding to the M/Sgt’s commo checks. I just ignored the commo checks. The following day he made a big stink about it and demanded that I be court-martialed. He did this in public and the Commanding Officer had to act. I was brought before the CO and offered NJP. Not being a fool, I accepted. I was sentenced to barracks restriction for a week. As we were going out on an eight day field exercise – the punishment was a joke. The M/Sgt was then taken aside by the CO and counseled. He was removed from being NCO in charge of FFl and assigned to the Mountianing Section and put in charge of the mountaining equipment shed. By the way, after another few cycles, I became the NCO in charge of FFL.
Longwalker (4e0dda) — 11/25/2009 @ 3:13 pmInmy time, a good CO would protect his men from higher command through the speedy use of NJP. “Sorry, General. But I have already given Private Jones NJP for that offense.” If the CO knew that a higher up wanted to make an example of someone aand did not think that the higher up was being fair, the CO would forstall the higher up by giving the individual in trouble NJP. I hope that the military has not changed so much to make that option obsolete.
#59, asked, “…but how many of you really do want SEALs to punch a restrained, captured detainee?”
One of the important rules for small group leadership: Never ask others to do what you are unwilling to do yourself.
I don’t like to beat people, even those who have it coming. It’s messy and unsatisfying and doesn’t really seem to make matters any better. Although it does extract some level of direct compensation, ultimately it’s just not enough.
Truth is you can’t engage in barbarism and retain your own humanity. As proved by jihadis again and again.
So, it’s best to kill them on sight, problem solved. Difficulties arise however, when you need to get information from them and thankfully water-boarding seems to work well enough for government work.
ropelight (8b675c) — 11/25/2009 @ 3:46 pmWhat do these seals think they are? Cops?
imdw (603c39) — 11/25/2009 @ 4:00 pmYeah, who do they think they are, SEIU enforcers at a Tea Party full of senior citizens?
ropelight (8b675c) — 11/25/2009 @ 4:07 pmRopelight, 6 persons, 5 SEIU and 1 St. Louis Post Dispatch reporter were charged today in the beating of Ken Gladney, the Gadsden Flag seller at the Town Hall mtg in St. Louis.
PCD (74f8a9) — 11/25/2009 @ 6:45 pmRopelight, 6 persons, 5 SEIU and 1 St. Louis Post Dispatch reporter were charged today in the beating of Ken Gladney, the Gadsden Flag seller at the Town Hall mtg in St. Louis.
http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/25/breaking-charges-filed-in-kenneth-gladney-case/
PCD (74f8a9) — 11/25/2009 @ 6:45 pmPCD, misdemeanor violations??? What, no hate crime?
Dana (e9ba20) — 11/25/2009 @ 7:08 pmWell, that’s better than the whitewash the powers-that-be were on the way to until the SHTF!
AD - RtR/OS! (b005ed) — 11/25/2009 @ 7:25 pmEven small victories are still a victory.
Thanks, DAna, I missed the middle part of the call. It sure seems that the PC part is correct, or else we wouldn’t have had Ft. Hood.
Patricia (b05e7f) — 11/25/2009 @ 7:49 pmAD, I am glad you have a better attitude about this than me. These men were caught, dead to rights, committing a vicious felony.
This isn’t equal protection under the law.
Dustin (cf255c) — 11/25/2009 @ 7:57 pmAfter Abu Ghraib, few officers are willing to risk their careers by “looking the other way” when an alleged offense comes to light. That’s why charges were filed instead of ignoring the entire incident. No one wants to be caught in a “cover up”.
At this point, not enough detail has been reported to know exactly what happened. Was the prisoner injured while in U.S. custody or by the Iraqis? Did the prisoner resist at some point and had to be subdued? The fact that the SEALs are willing to risk courts martial indicates they feel strongly that their actions were correct. In the courtroom, their defense would most likely be: “I applied sufficient force to neutralize the threat.”
navyvet (ef35a9) — 11/25/2009 @ 9:38 pmAnd a post-script: if the goal was to “abuse” the captured “alleged” terrorist, I can guarantee you that the SEALs would have done a much more thorough job of it than just a “bloody lip”.
navyvet (ef35a9) — 11/25/2009 @ 9:42 pm74, navyvet said, “No one wants to be caught in a “cover up”
I get your drift, and I understand fully how we got to this sorry situation, but recent evidence shows it usually only applies to the lower links on the chain. Clearly, there’s one set of regs for the big shots with scrambled eggs on their hats, and quite another for the guys who actually do the hands on work.
We all see the axe falls hard on EMs and junior officers, but flag ranks skate by throwing others under the bus. Hell, General McCrystal was knee deep in covering up the friendly fire death of Pat Tillman, and Obama selected him to run the show in Afghanistan. I know, I know, birds of a feather, McCrystal covers up wrongful death by friendly fire, and Obama covers up treachery in the White House.
BTW, did you happen to see the disgraceful two-faced display of cowardice and obeisance by the Army and Navy chiefs on TV when they were appointed to “investigate” the incident at Fort Hood? It was probably the most disgraceful thing I’ve ever seen, made even worse by General Casey’s “diversity” caterwauling several days previously. He might as well have turned to the East and prostrated himself toward Mecca. Those to asshats seemed oblivious to how their display of boot-licking subservience would embolden the Islamic jihadis.
I may be overstating the case, but those two clowns shouldn’t be allowed to wear the uniform. A burka would have been more appropriate. I’ve known more than a few Admirals going back 50 years including CINCs LANT and PAC FLEET, all damn good men and true, but these two bed-wetters don’t pass muster. They’re not qualified to lead men on shore leave, much less in battle.
In my book, those SEALs deserve a steak dinner, an all expenses paid 3 day pass in any port of their choosing, decorations, promotion, and their choice of assignments. Add to that my personal salute, and the appreciation of a grateful nation. I’ll be in Norfolk for a few weeks next month and I know where SEALs go for a cold one. I’m going to stop in, say hello, and give ’em a few attaboys.
(Today is Thanksgiving so I won’t say what I think of the guy who brought the charges against the SEALs. That can wait a few days.)
ropelight (63c5b4) — 11/26/2009 @ 1:34 pmMost of the “perfumed princes” that populate the E-ring would have a difficult time leading people to the head!
AD - RtR/OS! (9653bd) — 11/26/2009 @ 2:30 pmThe Art Of War…
…A post I read a while ago over at…
The Art Of War (85684a) — 12/8/2010 @ 1:14 pm