Patterico's Pontifications


Kyoto is Dead. Long Live Kyoto

Filed under: Environment,International — DRJ @ 4:49 pm

[Guest post by DRJ]

“Kyoto is essentially dead after 2012,” says Michael Levi of the Council on Foreign Relations and NPR apparently agrees, although diplomats from “the U.S. and 15 other major economies will meet on Sunday in London to talk about a new global warming agreement.”


UPDATE: Don’t miss Bradley J. Fike’s post on the disputed science of global warming.

27 Responses to “Kyoto is Dead. Long Live Kyoto”

  1. I have a post on global warming as science that is not settled.

    [Thanks, Bradley. I added your link to the post. — DRJ]

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  2. The United States never ratified the agreement because it doesn’t require any action from the developing world, including China, the world’s largest emitter. The Bush administration considered that a fatal flaw. And so does the Obama White House.

    That’s your dirty socialist state radio. More flexible than a really very flexible third world hooker what does extraordinarily bendy things. You pay for it.

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  3. Bad things never seem to really die. This is going to be like a zombie.

    JD (b9a8a2)

  4. A bit of history. Before President Clinton sent Vice President Gore to Kyoto to sign that abysmal agreement, the United States Senate voted, 95-0, for a sense of the Senate resolution which urged the President not to sign it in anything like its then-current form. 95-0 means that every Republican who voted and every Democrat who voted thought it was a rotten agreement, even if some of them might have agreed with its overall goals.

    President Clinton never submitted it to the Senate for ratification, knowing it would be defeated. President Bush withdrew our signature, which I thought was a bad move; he should have, instead, submitted it to the Senate for ratification, knowing that the Senate would have rejected it.

    President Obama, with the ridiculous crap-and trade, is going to try something like Kyoto, via the back door, something which will simply take more money out of the pockets of the American people.

    The historian Dana (474dfc)

  5. I’d feel differently, Dana, if they were pushing nuclear as a stopgap measure until better technologies were available.

    I honestly think it is an economic power grab, and little more. Especially given the situation in India and China.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  6. More like a huge transfer of wealth from 1st to 3rd – World countries. It would be interesting to see how much the US already contributes in direct aid to the 3rd World, then couple that with private charitable donations.

    Dmac (5ddc52)

  7. The nuclear question is to me the sine qua non of serious concern about CO2. If you are not in favor of nuclear power, it is just a pose. I don’t know what Obama thinks will happen when the economy finally comes out of the recession. Maybe he won’t have to worry about it. No drilling and no nuclear is a prescription for blackouts. Big blackouts.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  8. Surveyed scientists agree global warming is real

    (CNN) — Human-induced global warming is real, according to a recent U.S. survey based on the opinions of 3,146 scientists. However there remains divisions between climatologists and scientists from other areas of earth sciences as to the extent of human responsibility.

    A survey of more than 3,000 scientists found that the vast majority believe humans cause global warming.

    Against a backdrop of harsh winter weather across much of North America and Europe, the concept of rising global temperatures might seem incongruous.

    However the results of the investigation conducted at the end of 2008 reveal that vast majority of the Earth scientists surveyed agree that in the past 200-plus years, mean global temperatures have been rising and that human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures.

    The study released today [1/20/2009] was conducted by academics from the University of Illinois, who used an online questionnaire of nine questions. The scientists approached were listed in the 2007 edition of the American Geological Institute’s Directory of Geoscience Departments.

    Two questions were key: Have mean global temperatures risen compared to pre-1800s levels, and has human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures?

    About 90 percent of the scientists agreed with the first question and 82 percent the second.

    The strongest consensus on the causes of global warming came from climatologists who are active in climate research, with 97 percent agreeing humans play a role.

    Petroleum geologists and meteorologists were among the biggest doubters, with only 47 percent and 64 percent, respectively, believing in human involvement.

    “The petroleum geologist response is not too surprising, but the meteorologists’ is very interesting,” said Peter Doran associate professor of earth and environmental sciences at the University of Illinois at Chicago, and one of the survey’s authors.
    “Most members of the public think meteorologists know climate, but most of them actually study very short-term phenomenon.”

    However, Doran was not surprised by the near-unanimous agreement by climatologists.

    “They’re the ones who study and publish on climate science. So I guess the take-home message is, the more you know about the field of climate science, the more you’re likely to believe in global warming and humankind’s contribution to it.

    “The debate on the authenticity of global warming and the role played by human activity is largely nonexistent among those who understand the nuances and scientific basis of long-term climate processes,” said Doran. – source, CNN, 1/20/09

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  9. DCSCA,
    Scientific fact is not established by polls; it’s established by data. And my blog post discusses data in a peer-reviewed journal that points to another possible cause of global warming.

    You’re welcome to examine the data on cosmic rays and warming and give your informed perspective from your vast scientific knowledge base.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  10. “They’re the ones who study and publish on climate science. So I guess the take-home message is, the more you know about the field of climate science, the more you’re likely to believe in global warming and humankind’s contribution to it.

    They’re the ones who receive grants based on advancing the theory of anthropogenic global warming and cooked data sets. Read for recent exposes on how the major players in the global warming hoax incestuously perpetuated a fraud with the underlying temperature data that served as the basis for IPCC conclusions an most major “peer” reviewed studies. There is no warming.

    daleyrocks (d057d3)

  11. daleyrocks,
    I actually think global warming is happening (or has happened), but the underlying reasons don’t fit well into DCSCA’s sound-bite mentality. Air pollution during the mid-20th century blocked some sunlight from reaching the ground, resulting in cooling and giving rise to fears of a new ice age.

    Cleaning up air pollution caused warming in Europe of two to three times in excess of that predicted by global warming theory..

    Of course, this research is in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. That’s above the pay grade of DCSCA, whose idea of scientific evidence is to cut-and-paste MSM stories.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  12. I think the earth is warming as well, but to pin it entirely on man – made activities is ridiculous. Not to mention that Hansen was found to be using fraudulent data during his prior tirades about the evil US.

    Dmac (5ddc52)

  13. Earth’s climate has always varied. In just the last 22,000 years, which is an eyeblink in geological time, sea level has risen over 300 feet, as the latest ice age glaciation subsided. That was with no anthropogenic input.

    That suggests to me that, unless we want to deliberately tamper with the climate in order to keep it at some “ideal” state, we need to focus on adapting to its change.

    gp (cb5e61)

  14. Sitting here watching the Angels play the Yanks in the Bronx, and must assume that AlGore is in attendance, since several players are wearing head-socks to keep warm.

    AD - RtR/OS! (086c92)

  15. AD – They are playing on one of my company’s fields.

    International Man of Parody never fails. I just took a poll of 100 commenters, and 96% believe you are a stark raving lunatic.

    JD (7320ea)

  16. The other 4% were registered Democrats in Chicago, aka Deceased!

    AD - RtR/OS! (086c92)

  17. Bradley – I’m referring of course to the peer reviewed science the data behind which the scientists kept refusing for years and years to share in the spirit of scientific cooperation and willingness of having others validate their work and conclusions. When one British scienific publication finally put down its foot and insisted that its data archiving policies be followed upon publication, Steve McIntire was able to reverse engineer the data fraud that has permeated the Bristle Cone studies of the warming crowd and IPPC for the past seven or eight years. If you haven’t read about it, it is fascinating the lengths the alarmists went to cover up the data and the extent the warming data depended on one time series.

    I’m not in the same camp on warming as you, but I’m willing to listen, just not to hucksters unwilling to have an honest debate.

    daleyrocks (d057d3)

  18. I added another link in a comment to Bradley’s post. If you look in detail at that 3,000 “scientist” list you will find a lot of sociologists and non-climate people in there. The whole subject has been politicized and the truth will probably have to wait for the trend to become so clear that ignoramuses like DCSCA can see it. The best example I can think of is Paul Erlich’s global famine stuff in the 70s. Some of these people in global warming are the same people, especially Obama’s science czar. The raw material shortage people and the peak oil people are all in this, too. It is an article of faith on the left.

    It reminds me of the Nazi-Soviet pact of 1939. The communists could be identified by the crazy flips in opinion they had to go through. Lillian Hellman’s play Watch on the Rhine was the obvious example. FIrst it was brilliant, then it was trash, then it was brilliant again. Holdren is the 21st century Lillian Hellman. First we’re going to freeze to death, then cook to death. What next ? When the glaciers reach Bethesda, they will be running like rats.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  19. Daleyrocks, this was a post from last month. Sounds something like what you are talking about.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  20. Snow in NY Metro Suburbs in Oct …. WTF are they talking about?

    HeavenSent (01a566)

  21. Earth has been lots warmer and lots colder than today.

    We need to adjust accordingly.

    The rest is nonsense for political and economic gain.

    HeavenSent (01a566)

  22. Human-induced global warming is real, according to a recent U.S. survey based on the opinions of 3,146 scientists.

    Oh, and I guess manmade carbon dioxide is just as influential — just as compelling — as that thing in the sky that’s so, uh, bright that merely looking at it (without a filter) during the day will permanently blind a person? Sort of a real-life version of looking at Medusa?

    And I guess manmade carbon dioxide is just as influential — just as compelling — as those high-pressure weather systems that, at least in this part of the world (southern California), are THE reason for days of above-average temperatures, or outright heat, and days of drought.

    BTW, I hate friggin’ hot weather, and one reason I’m so aware of its relationship to high-pressure energy is because of all the years of observing an “H” on a weather map — or ridge on a millibar chart — and saying, oh, goddamn it—-crappy weather ahead!

    Mark (411533)

  23. AD – RtR/OS! wrote:

    Sitting here watching the Angels play the Yanks in the Bronx, and must assume that AlGore is in attendance, since several players are wearing head-socks to keep warm.

    On October 15-16, less than a month after the vernal equinox, and when we still have plenty of green on the trees, it snowed in northeastern Pennsylvania, up to five inches on the ground in the Poconos. My daughter’s apartment at Penn State was without sparktricity all day, and there are two inches of snow on the ground there; more snow is predicted during Penn State’s homecoming game, due to start at 3:30 PM Real Time today.

    As always, I blame Al Gort!

    The Dana looking out the computer room window at an absolutely miserable day (474dfc)

  24. I see DCSCA hasn’t returned. Guess the science is above its pay grade.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  25. Oh noes, say it ain’t true! Do you mean to suggest that the erstwhile protege of Von Braun is not fluent in matter of science?

    Dmac (5ddc52)

  26. IMP is only fluent in self-parody.

    JD (b9a8a2)

  27. …and other activities that can be completed without the interaction of other humans.

    AD - RtR/OS! (bb3066)

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