Higher Education
[Guest post by DRJ]
Ranking America’s #1 public university:
“Students at many of the country’s most prestigious colleges and universities are graduating with less knowledge of American history, government, and economics than they had as incoming freshmen, with Harvard University seniors scoring a “D+” average on a 60-question multiple-choice exam about civic literacy.
According to a report released yesterday [Note: This article was published in 2007] by the Intercollegiate Studies Institute, the average college senior at the 50 colleges and universities polled did not earn a passing grade.
“At the most expensive colleges, they actually graduate knowing less,” the executive director of the Jack Miller Center at the Intercollegiate Studies Institute, Michael Ratliff, said. “Colleges and universities are not directing students to the courses that would educate them. We want to know whether after getting $300 billion to do their work, universities are actually educating their students.”
At universities such as Princeton, Yale, Cornell, Duke, and Berkeley, seniors scored lower on the test, available here, than freshmen, living proof of the broadening relevancy of the old Harvard adage that the university is a storehouse of knowledge because “the freshmen bring so much and the seniors take away so little.”
America faces a lot of serious problems. In my opinion, the failure of the American educational system is the biggest problem we face.
— DRJ
Can I write some stories of my college students here, DRJ?
SPQR (26be8b) — 9/21/2009 @ 4:59 pmReminds me of an apocryphal anecdote of a graduation address by the Chancellor to the assemblage, and his notation that the buildings of the campus must be the smartest buildings in the world, since the freshmen arrive knowing so much, and the seniors leave knowing so little.
AD - RtR/OS! (8c7b14) — 9/21/2009 @ 5:06 pmTragic that it seems to now be true.
I got 5 wrong out of 60.
gp (7978f7) — 9/21/2009 @ 5:06 pmUCLA is considered a prestigious university, right? The history dept is excellent (but I’m biased since I’m a history major) yet the students leave a lot to be desired. I had someone ask me in a Middle Eastern history class if Ariel Sharon was an advocate for the Palestinians. In a Jews and the Third Reich class, my fellow classmates were shocked to learn that it wasn’t just Jews who were targeted by the Reich, but also the disabled and genetic oddities like dwarves and albinos as well as political prisoners. The utter cluelessness of the questions asked by my classmates amazed me. And these were upper division classes.
wherestherum (581ef7) — 9/21/2009 @ 5:07 pm#4, my daughter graduated from UCLA as a history major, too. On day in class, a group of students seriously asked the professor if there were really American Indians left in the country. My daughter, who is a card carrying American Indian, sat there in disbelief and listened with surprise as the professor had to explain that yes, there were, and they didn’t all live on reservations, and ,shock of all shocks, there were even some sitting in the lecture hall at that very moment!
My favorite part of Crowder’s vid was asking whether Mary Jo was supporting the health care bill. Dear god, there must be a lot of parents questioning why the heck they are shelling out the big bucks for their kids edumacation.
Dana (863a65) — 9/21/2009 @ 5:16 pmDRJ, the problem is that the educational system isn’t about education. It’s about promoting a set of political points of view.
And the trouble with that is that those points of view will change with time….
Eric Blair (c8876d) — 9/21/2009 @ 5:37 pmEric, it’s also become a social institution rather than just an institution of learning – at the K-12 levels, students are fed for free, clothed if needed, and teachers are expected to do the job that parents once assumed was theirs (instill values, discipline and actually *raise* them to some degree).
Dana (863a65) — 9/21/2009 @ 5:40 pmIt takes a village, Dana!
Pardon me while I vomit.
Eric Blair (c8876d) — 9/21/2009 @ 5:43 pmI think the term “higher education” refers to their permanently chemically altered state.
Gazzer (22ecdc) — 9/21/2009 @ 5:56 pmOn day in class, a group of students seriously asked the professor if there were really American Indians left in the country.
Get. Out. Wonder what the prof was thinking.
My favorite part of Crowder’s vid was asking whether Mary Jo was supporting the health care bill.
That was great. Not as great as the smile at the cam after the war criminal bit right behind the guy’s back. Heh.
no one you know (1ebbb1) — 9/21/2009 @ 5:57 pmDana,
This wasn’t at UCLA, but at Pierce Community College, I had someone ask me if we won WWI. This same person then asked if Pearl Harbor was in Japan.
I also knew a girl who was attending Pasadena CC, had graduated from high school, and didn’t know that Sacramento was the capital of CA. And she was born and raised in CA.
wherestherum (581ef7) — 9/21/2009 @ 6:08 pmI am starting to think that citizens should not be able to vote until they, you know, pass the citizenship test that immigrants take.
Except that is racist. Or something.
Heck, just try asking high schoolers (or college age students) these questions:
1. Who was Winston Churchill, and what was his job?
2. In what decade was the Civil War fought in this country?
3. In what decade did women get the vote in this country?
4. Name three members of the Axis and Allied forces during World War II. And who were “the bad guys”?
5. Who was Joseph Stalin?
6. Name your own state capitol, your two senators, and your representative.
7. What is the formula for water (no kidding)?
8. Who was Joseph McCarthy?
9. Name the two cities on which atomic bombs were dropped during World War II.
And so on…..
Sigh.;
Eric Blair (184ac1) — 9/21/2009 @ 6:28 pm“I am starting to think that citizens should not be able to vote until they, you know, pass the citizenship test that immigrants take.”
I’ve been thinking that for decades.
Democrats would fight it tooth and nail though.
Dave Surls (c13af3) — 9/21/2009 @ 6:35 pmDemocrats rely on ignorant buffons for election wins. They would never allow civics testing.
Da'Shiznit (3f9f58) — 9/21/2009 @ 6:42 pmAt my reserve drill this weekend there was a pleasant young cadet in ROTC and her master’s program in social work. She was passing time reading Rules for Radicals for her class. Her assignment was to create a persuasive plan to encourage the passage of the healthcare bill based on a template according to Alinsky’s plan. Nothing like a graduate school education. Hook ’em Horns.
SPC Jack Klompus (237c0e) — 9/21/2009 @ 6:43 pmFeel free, SPQR, as long as it doesn’t reveal any private information — but I know you wouldn’t do that anyway.
DRJ (b008f8) — 9/21/2009 @ 6:55 pmProbably not topical now that I think of it. My teaching has mostly been at local community colleges in California and Colorado. My stories better illustrate the failures of K12 education than that of “higher education”.
SPQR (26be8b) — 9/21/2009 @ 6:57 pmI’m concerned about all education. If we did a good job at K-12, students would know basic facts no matter what they are taught in college.
DRJ (b008f8) — 9/21/2009 @ 6:59 pmEric Blair,
I just moved to NY, but even before I moved here I knew the capital (learned it in 5th grade) and I know who the two senators are. I don’t know who my rep is, though. I haven’t looked that up yet.
It amazes me most people don’t even know who the VP is.
wherestherum (581ef7) — 9/21/2009 @ 7:08 pmOne of my paralegal students once complained to the department chair that I discriminated. She explained to the chair that I discriminated against students that did not attend class and did not do their homework.
SPQR (26be8b) — 9/21/2009 @ 7:10 pm“She explained to the chair that I discriminated against students that did not attend class and did not do their homework.”
A shocking abuse of power.
Dave Surls (c13af3) — 9/21/2009 @ 7:19 pmThat abuse of power will cease when Obama appoints his next czar, Diana Moon Glampers.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407) — 9/21/2009 @ 7:41 pmComment by Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. — 9/21/2009 @ 7:41 pm
…and here I just mentioned last week to Eric Blair that it seems we are all bound to become Harrison Bergeron, Bradley. The writing is on the wall.
Dana (863a65) — 9/21/2009 @ 7:48 pmthere are students in my program who can’t understand why anyone takes role. the program, which deducts a measly 1/2 point for an absence, at least on the days when the instructors remember to take role, let alone accurately, is considering relaxing that draconian requirement.
don’t even get me started on the near total lack of reasoning ability, which, frighteningly enough, extends upward into the middle aged students, as well being chronic amongst the children. however, since most of the class draws from Left LA, this is not too surprising.
redc1c4 (fb8750) — 9/21/2009 @ 7:51 pmUCLA’s standards really dropped in the last decade.
Michael Ejercito (833607) — 9/21/2009 @ 8:00 pmDepends on if you are discussing state or federal protections.
I know women’s suffrage became protected in California in 1914.
In Los Angeles County, there are plenty of signs on San Diego and Golden State Freeways referring to Sacramento.
“Doesn’t UCLA have admissions standards?”
Michael Ejercito (833607) — 9/21/2009 @ 8:07 pmNot yet, Sister Dana. The One’s finely geared machine has begun to sputter, despite the best effort of his media buddies to smear the opposition. (No doubt intensified by their eagerness to get
a sordid bribe with taxpayer moneysupport for high quality journalism to defend our country.I saw and responded to yet another disingenuous attempt on Romenesko by a lefty reporter to claim there’s no media bias.
How do I know he’s a lefty? With articles like this, a suck-up post like this, and snide posts like this and this, there’s little doubt.
Fikes’ Rule of Journalistic Bias: Journalists who squawk the loudest that the media isn’t leftist-biased are themselves leftists. And what they really mean is that they’ve redefined bias, like their hero has redefined taxes.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407) — 9/21/2009 @ 8:08 pmAnd this is why I went to an engineering school…..
Techie (482700) — 9/21/2009 @ 8:27 pmWhen I TA’ed at Arizona State during grad school, I handed out C’s and D’s like Pez. I had one student come to my office after a test, trying to figure out where he had gone wrong, who said, “This sure is a lot harder than what we had to do in high school.”
I gave him a “no shit, Shirley” look and said, “Yeah, it’s a lot harder in college than it is in high school.” I don’t think he caught the barb. Another, older student said “I’ve never gotten lower than a B in anything!” You can imagine how little sympathy I had for her plight, given that the prof had handed out a study guide before the test listing everything that needed to be mentioned in the exam.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the profs I TA’ed for changed the grades I gave out after the fact, as I’m well aware how much pressure there is to inflate grades, especially at the undergraduate level. At least it woke some of these dumb-truck students up to the fact that they weren’t just going to skate through the class without putting in the effort.
Another Chris (f29ad3) — 9/21/2009 @ 8:55 pmAD made me write this on my blog a while back.
8th grade was a lot shorter and a lot smarter back then than it is today.
John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/21/2009 @ 9:21 pm#26
I’ve heard lots of stories like yours. I actually worked and studied harder in high school than I did in college. My high school, while super liberal (I had an avowed Marxist as a teacher one year), made us work and taught us to write and think and learn. They didn’t like us questioning them, but we actually had to take the material we were taught and apply it.
College…and this is UCLA, mind…I rarely ever cracked open a book unless I had to write a paper. I lived off my lecture notes and graduated with a 3.6 GPA.
wherestherum (581ef7) — 9/21/2009 @ 9:28 pmI remember in HS, in health class of all places, we had a couple different days of “values clarification.” Values modification is more accurate.
Global catastrophe. You are 16 people. You have enough food to feed 8 people. You need to repopulate the world. List in order of importance this list of people:
A missionary couple, age 80
A prostitute, age 24
etc etc etc
Of course the missionary couple ranked near the bottom, well outside the 8 person limit. They couldn’t procreate. And the prostitute ranked well within the top 8, according to the health teacher.
And this was during public school “education” time, in the heartland, in the 80s.
John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/21/2009 @ 9:39 pmThere is too much of the wrong kind of education and not enough of the right kind of education. Society now pushes every student into an academic track program with college as the goal.
When I was in HS, we had an academic program and a vocational program. You had to have certain core subjects regardless of which program you entered. Students that had no intention of going on to University usually opted for a vocational program starting their Jr. year. They received hands on training plus educational training in the field they pursued and usually were placed in some part time job in their field their Sr year, going to class one half day and then to work.
If we had such a strong program today, so many of these kids that opt out of school entirely could find a field of interest and at least obtain some type of job skills and learn the responsibilities of going to work each day and being on time. That would have the added benefit of not clogging up the secondary schools with students that shouldn’t be there in the first place.
Teach them some “life skills”, such as consumer math, basic food prep, etc. and then let them enter some type of vocational program.
rls (e58293) — 9/21/2009 @ 9:44 pmEric at 12 – For #1 he was First Lord of the Admiralty, correct. 🙂
Have Blue (854a6e) — 9/21/2009 @ 10:04 pmI think he was also PMS or something like that.
John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/21/2009 @ 10:07 pmMaybe the Home Secretary?
Have Blue (854a6e) — 9/21/2009 @ 10:13 pmOk Eric Blair – here you go.
1. Who was Winston Churchill, and what was his job?
He invented Churches. Before him, people worshiped outside in little groups.
2. In what decade was the Civil War fought in this country?
From 1837 to 1901. The Victorians were very polite to each other, which is why it was called the Civil War. An insult from that time is “A Pax upon your house.”
3. In what decade did women get the vote in this country?
The Roaring 20’s, because people had to be drunk to let that happen.
4. Name three members of the Axis and Allied forces during World War II. And who were “the bad guys”?
Iraq, North Korea and Iran. The bad guys were the Nazis. The bad guys are always the Nazis.
5. Who was Joseph Stalin?
A proponent of procrastination, who coined the term “Never do today what you can put off for tomorrow, like killing 50 million people.”
6. Name your own state capitol, your two senators, and your representative.
Hollywood, duh. It even says “capital” on the advertisements. Senators? A trick question – they’re called the Rangers now. My representative is Rick Peck, but if he’s not in his office you can leave a message on his cell.
7. What is the formula for water (no kidding)?
Nobody knows, which is why the DWP can charge such exorbitant rates for it. Can you imagine what chaos would happen if regular people found out how to make water? How would we pay for the pensions?
8. Who was Joseph McCarthy?
One of the Hollywood Top Ten. He started the organization HUAC, which stands for Hollywood United Agents Collective, which became famous for organizing studio execs, agents and managers who would then insist on re-making old films and sequels simply to guarantee everyone a paycheck. When someone would object, they were banned. This was called McCarthyism.
9. Name the two cities on which atomic bombs were dropped during World War II.
Chicago and Los Alamos, because you can’t make a complicated weapon like that without it falling off the workbench at least a couple of times.
This really isn’t that hard. Do I get a cookie?
Apogee (e2dc9b) — 9/22/2009 @ 3:08 amThis really isn’t that hard. Do I get a cookie?
Comment by Apogee — 9/22/2009 @ 3:08 am
LOL
no one you know (1ebbb1) — 9/22/2009 @ 3:52 amWe had one of these “12 people in a boat” exercises in eighth grade in Religion class, Catholic school. The 2 nuns brought the priest in to “watch” the lesson. All 3 sat quietly for ten minutes looking at each other while we made our “decisions.” Their first question when we were done: “Did you pray about this before you made your decisions?”
Of course none of us had. Then these normally very nice nuns proceeded to tell us very sternly, with Father’s support, that NO ONE would be tossed over the side of the boat because EVERYONE’s life is invaluable and only God gets to decide who goes. We all sat there with our mouths hanging open and our hands over our papers. Don’t remember that much about religion class in school but oh I remember that day. Now that’s what I call “values clarification.” I love nuns.
no one you know (1ebbb1) — 9/22/2009 @ 4:07 am#37 Apogee:
Chocolate chip or peanut butter?
#6 Eric Blair:
Remember the Young Pioneers?
Totalitarianism is not a view that changes with time, and how better to prep a population to willingly accede to it than to train them from childhood?
EW1@Ingram.bz (edc268) — 9/22/2009 @ 4:14 am#39 no one you know:
When I was a bit younger (oh, maybe three decades), I was exposed to an exercise like this; and chastised for being intractable.
At the time, I “felt” that the entire presupposition was wrong (in a moral sense, the questions weren’t valid), but I wasn’t sure how to articulate that.
In the meantime, I have identified the reasons that the exercise wasn’t valid…and they don’t let me play anymore. 🙁
EW1@Ingram.bz (edc268) — 9/22/2009 @ 4:20 amNobody else is going to try the NYSun Civics Quiz linked in the post? 🙁
gp (7978f7) — 9/22/2009 @ 4:54 am#42 gp:
Showoff!
/Missed 6.
EW1@Ingram.bz (edc268) — 9/22/2009 @ 5:14 amOk! I try to be funny and then Apogee really brings it.
Have Blue (854a6e) — 9/22/2009 @ 8:41 amYes, Apogee, you get a cookie. Two of them, in fact.
But the sad part is the answers I genuinely get to these kinds of questions. Answers from smart young men and women who have been shortchanged by our educational system. And not by teachers, many of whom (apart from political bias) want to better prepare students.
I find that students are passive about learning. Rather than puzzle or discuss answers, they will say “…can you go over that topic again…” which is “code” for “please give the lecture over again.”
Politics is in the classroom, and should not be there. Of course. But there is much more going on in secondary education, and it is not good.
We don’t need to encourage sheep. We need “intellectual wolves” who go out hunting for knowledge and points of view.
Okay, far too melodramatic and strained a metaphor.
Apogee, thanks for the chuckle this morning. I needed that!
Eric Blair (184ac1) — 9/22/2009 @ 8:57 amThis brings up my favorite 60s story about medical school. We had a professor, named Leonard Rosoff, who had a wicked sense of humor. About 1967, at the height of the foolishness, the third year medical school class came to him and announced that they were not going to take the Surgery final exam because exams were an outmoded remnant of patriarchal society, blah, blah, blah. He, instead of threatening them with dire consequences, said that he would hold the final and anybody who wanted to take it could do so. About a dozen people showed up.
About four months later, some members of that class began to think about the fact that they had gotten “Incomplete” in the course. At the end of the school year, an Incomplete becomes a “D.” So a bunch of them came to him and asked if he would hold a makeup exam. He said sure. The exam was held and one student got an F. That student came to Dr Rosoff and complained. He said that they had asked “the wrong questions” on the exam. he said “I know so much more about Surgery than what was on that exam !”
Rosoff, with a twinkle in his eye as he told the story, told the student that he understood completely. He would “mentally” give him a passing grade. He would just put the F on the paper.
The student said “Mentally !” “It’s what’s on the paper that counts !” With that, Rosoff would smile and say “What could I say ?”
By the way, students in Britain cannot identify Churchill so it’s not just our schools. I did a post on it a while ago.
Mike K (addb13) — 9/22/2009 @ 9:58 amEric Blair – You’re welcome, and I absolutely agree with you that the politics shouldn’t be in the classroom. Unfortunately, it isn’t going anywhere with the current power structure of the teacher’s unions and NEA in place.
What’s disturbing is that leftists can’t teach, because successful instruction instills not just information but the ability to parse and obtain additional knowledge – something that interferes with the groupthink necessary for leftist thought. In order to indoctrinate, thinking outside the box needs to be eliminated. Questioning only one kind of authority produces the disconnect we see in so many of our fellow citizens. Bit by bit, the classroom has less and less in common with the outside world.
The leftists are proving the vacancy of their ideology by their actions.
Your statement wasn’t a stretch – it was dead on.
EW1 – Chocolate Chip.
Apogee (e2dc9b) — 9/22/2009 @ 11:48 am[…] Did you know Benjamin Franklin was a President? Neither did […]
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