Patterico's Pontifications

9/8/2009

Obama Implies Illegals Will Be Covered by His Health Care Plan

Filed under: Immigration,Obama — Patterico @ 7:21 am

Nice catch by Ed Morrissey, who notes that in a speech in Grand Junction, Colorado, Obama said:

So just to recap here, if you’re one of nearly 46 million people who don’t have health insurance, you will finally have quality, affordable options.

Only trouble is, according to the Census Bureau, almost 10 million of that 46 million figure are illegal immigrants.

Surely Obama knows that. If he didn’t, that would be stunning ignorance.

And if he does know it, then he’s promising the illegals that they will be insured under his plan.

UPDATE: In comments, Foo Bar provides links suggesting that the number of uninsured illegals is around 7 million. The Census data covers “noncitizens” and does not specify how many are illegals; the 9.4 million in Ed Morrissey’s post includes some legal noncitizens. So my claim that “almost 10 million . . . are illegal immigrants” is apparently off by almost 3 million. Thanks to Foo Bar for the correction.

The main point stands: Obama claimed that all 46 million uninsured would get new options under his plan — even though 46 million may be uninsured (and don’t get me started on the percentage who are uninsured by choice), millions of those are illegals. Obama says they are among the group that “will finally have quality, affordable options.”

190 Comments

  1. Well, hopefully the impact wont be that much the CATO institutes latest report shows the illegal population down to 8.7 million and dropping 50,000 or more a month

    Comment by EricPWJohnson (999d2e) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:27 am

  2. Maybe the illegals will be covered on the Oregon plan?

    Comment by John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:36 am

  3. The Democrats see illegals as reliable votes. Of course they will see that they are included. It can get tough to keep your stories straight, though.

    Comment by Mike K (2cf494) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:45 am

  4. hopefully, the conservative talking heads will roll the tape the next time their liberal counterparts claim ‘illegals getting health insurance’ is but a myth… what better way to rebut the rebuttal than with Obama’s own words?

    Comment by steve sturm (369bc6) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:47 am

  5. The Democrats see illegals as reliable votes.

    How is it, exactly, that an illegal alien even arrives at a polling station with the ability to cast a vote?

    Comment by Elliott (415646) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:51 am

  6. Mr Sturm:

    Using a Democrat’s words against him is using a lie and smear tactic. You are hereby condemned as the racist you are for even considering using Obama’s own words to attack him.

    Comment by John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:53 am

  7. Elliott:

    How did the full Dallas Cowboy team find themselves registered voters in the state of Nevada?

    Comment by John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:54 am

  8. there is health care for them now … otherwise we’d see them with un-set broken legs and arms etc – accidents happen to everyone. they are getting them treated, now. ditto for bacterial infections they are not dying in the streets. the only question is will the federal government take control, make decisions, and take credit?

    Comment by quasimodo (4af144) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:56 am

  9. HR 3200 currently contains a section that does ban illegal immigrants from being covered but excludes any enforcement mechanism. When such a mechanism was introduced it was voted down. So like this set of Congressional Donks to leave a talking point intact while knowing they can “back door” illegals and gain some political fodder.

    Is anybosy else sick and tired of the “46 million uninsured” myth making? In addition to the illegals, that number includes those who are eligible for Medicaid but haven’t signed up, those who choose not to carry insurance and anyone who was without insurance for as little as one day in 2000 (having been based on that census.)

    The “real” number has been estimated at 8-12 million. That number, of course, doesn’t have the same pimping oomph misery index of TEH 46 MILLIONS!

    Comment by BJTexs (a2cb5a) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:09 am

  10. You knew this was coming. Say hello to higher taxes. Think this will attract more illegals?

    Comment by Duke Nukem (d9d8ce) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:09 am

  11. On the other hand we have the Republican plan by Shadegg and Hoekstra (today’s WSJ):
    When was the last time you asked your doctor how much it would cost for a necessary test or procedure? In all likelihood, you can’t remember. That’s because your employer-provided health plan or the government “paid for it.” In fact, you paid. We all pay for health care.”

    More of the same:
    Limbaugh to caller who can’t afford $6,000 to treat broken wrist: “Well, you shouldn’t have broken your wrist”"

    “ROBERTS: Welcome back to the most news in the morning. How far would you go to get good health insurance? One man who lost his job and medical benefits reenlisted in the Army just to get his family covered and then he paid the ultimate price. This is a story that you’ll see only here on CNN.”

    Comment by JW Democrat (1e4a3b) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:14 am

  12. Ah, JW, policy by anecdote. Let me try:

    I have excellent health insurance through my wife’s work and, therefore, we shouldn’t have to do any health care reform! Also, all of my friends have good to excellent health care coverage from various sources. There’s no need for reform!!

    See what I did there?

    Comment by BJTexs (a2cb5a) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:18 am

  13. How is it, exactly, that an illegal alien even arrives at a polling station with the ability to cast a vote?

    How is it, exactly, how a poster can come on here and display widespread ignorance regarding widespread voter fraud that’s happened repeatedly in the past? Here’s a clue for you – look up “Driver’s License ID/Voter fraud” and get back to us.

    Comment by Dmac (a93b13) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:25 am

  14. All my family, friends, neighbors, and pets have outstanding health coverage, so no reform is needed.

    You can’t argue with me now JW Dem, it’s science!

    (She’ll never get it BJTexs, she’s clueless.)

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:27 am

  15. Excuse me?
    The first two quotes were examples of the Republican response to the crisis.) The third was a quote from a news story. But I guess news is mostly anecdote, including news from Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Limbaugh: “He shouldn’t have broken his arm!”
    That’s a good policy.

    Comment by JW Democrat (fcc189) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:38 am

  16. I have no health insurance coverage. I have been without health insurance coverage since I lost my long-term job in November 2008. And I don’t want stash to pay for my health insurance coverage.

    Comment by John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:39 am

  17. Junior Wannabe Douchecrat, the Democrat base just doesn’t understand.

    Comment by John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:40 am

  18. Obama has been rhetorically winking at the amnesty crowd all along. And the House Dems reject any attempt to verify citizenship status to be part of ObamaCare. And under current law, hospitals can’t ask about citizenship. This is not tough to figure out.

    Comment by Karl (f07e38) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:41 am

  19. Yes: Wrist not arm.

    And who’s clueless? You didn’t even know about the Texas Futile Care Law. But facts shouldn’t get in the way of opinions, should they? “Ignorance is strength”
    The motto of the Re-Bubba-can party.

    Comment by JW Democrat (fcc189) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:44 am

  20. JW has its talking points and marching orders. Good little footsoldier. Note how it absolutely does not want to talk about the actual topic.

    Comment by JD (7510a7) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:46 am

  21. Bah. If you haven’t already, brace yourself for a flood of anecdotes like the ones JW posted, including deliberate misconstruals (i.e., lies) such as the Rush quote. I could tell one myself — I’m now over $20K in the hole for health care, and have no way to pay for it. I got the health care, though, like everybody else does.

    None of it changes the fact that the Leftoids are objecting to health care funding decisions being made by unelected corporate bureaucrats sitting in cubicles, hassled by managers to stay within budget, and following books of corporate policy; so they propose that health care funding decisions be made by Government bureaucrats sitting in cubicles, hassled by managers to stay within budget, and following whole bookcases full of Government regulations that their Union declares they aren’t obliged to know — and that this will be, somehow, better, cheaper, and fairer than the present system.

    Bizarre. Insane, even.

    Shameless blogwhoring: Ric’s Rulez.

    Regards,
    Ric

    Comment by Ric Locke (3d3364) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:46 am

  22. That Ric Locke person is one wise person. Very. JW, not so much.

    The Dems fought things like e-Verify, so not including any enforcement seems to be par for the course for them.

    Comment by JD (7510a7) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:51 am

  23. Mr Hitchcock,
    The Republican base thinks Obama is a Muslim born in a foreign country. and 6% percent of Americans admit that he was born in Hawaii but don’t think Hawaii is a state

    “One-fourth of those who have questions about Obama’s origins aren’t sure why we have a 50th star on the American flag.”
    This is the Republican base.

    Comment by JW Democrat (fcc189) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:51 am

  24. Using the CATO Institute as a source on illegal-alien stats is a real stretch…
    They don’t believe in any immigration restrictions, just as most Libertarians decry any and all attempts by government to regulate anything.
    As Milton Friedman once pointed out, in an ideal world, there would be virtually no restrictions on immigration, but to do that, you would first have to end the Welfare State.

    Without being able to regulate your borders,
    you cease being a sovereign country!

    Comment by AD - RtR/OS! (5b5739) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:51 am

  25. JW, here’s a bit of info for you since you obviously did not follow the link:

    74 percent of the Republican base believe the Republicans in Congress are out of touch with the Republican base. A majority of Republicans and independents believe the Republicans in Congress are more liberal than the Republican base. A plurality of the Democrat base believe Republicans in Congress are more conservative than the Republican base. Thus your disconnect.

    And, since the Democrats are supposed to be the party of the working man, a Democrat’s derogatory usage of the term “Bubba” is an attack on the purported Democrat target-base.

    Do try an informed intellectual retort next time, mmkay?

    Comment by John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:52 am

  26. From 1965 to 1973, I had no health insurance. I was working full-time for companies that, at that time, did not offer health insurance and was attending college at night.

    I, being a rational individual in good health and no history of illness, decided that I could better use my money on education than health insurance. In my eyes, I was self-insured.

    So, from the age of twenty-seven through the age of thirty-five, I was without health insurance.

    Never had anything serious medical problem except for one on-the-job accident involving a Greyhound bus. I used my VISA card to pay the emergency room charges for the x-ray of my wrist and the other emergency room treatment.

    As it was an on-the-job injury, my employer re-imbursed me for the medical charges.

    A number of the current “uninsured” are people like me – young, healthy with no history of illness. For them it makes sense to be self-insured.

    Obama and the Democrats have little or no understanding of who the “uninsured” are. In their mind, all they see is a “wretched mass of poor people, mostly minority, who can’t afford health insurance.

    In their vision, these people are dying in the streets of America in droves and, without the assistance of the Democratic party, will continue to die because they cannot afford health insurance or medical treatment.

    It is as if these “uninsured” are living in the people’s paradices of Cuba and North Korea not in the United States.

    Comment by Longwalker (4e0dda) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:53 am

  27. Ok, let’s get real. No ambulance, emergency room, hospital, or doctor will deny life-saving care to anyone, in America. For chronic care, nobody is deprived in Cook County, including all medicines for free, and I don’t imagine the rest of the country is all that much more heartless.

    Comment by nk (df76d4) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:54 am

  28. If the illegals are covered by ObamaCare, why wouldn’t it cover all foreigners? If someone in Mexico or Canada is diagnosed as having cancer, won’t that person just “visit” the US and then check himself into one of our hospitals to get treatment? They have to treat him, right?

    Comment by j curtis (baef6f) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:54 am

  29. JW seems especially agitated and full of hate this morning. It dare not speak of the actual topic.

    Comment by JD (7510a7) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:54 am

  30. Six percent of Americans equals twenty-five percent of Republicans? Must be the new math.

    Comment by John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:57 am

  31. “and that this will be, somehow, better, cheaper, and fairer than the present system.”

    The facts show it is.
    In the US: We… Pay… More… For… Less.

    Comment by JW Democrat (fcc189) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:58 am

  32. JW Dem,

    You talking about facts not getting in the way of opinions is rich considering we just yanked your chain about arguing by anecdote. I don’t bother with your links since they’ve proven how dishonest and clueless you are, frequently saying the opposite of what you claim. That doesn’t mean I hadn’t heard of that legislation, but even if I hadn’t, I’m sure there is legislation in Oregon you’re not familiar with. So what? And I’ve told you already… President Bush is no longer in office. Get it through your head please.

    Finally (for today), I am not a Republican. Take all the shots at them you like, it doesn’t bother me and frequently ends up proving the Dems are worse.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:58 am

  33. JW – How does your comment show that it will somehow be better, smarter, or fairer? Or in your world of unicorns and fairies, does asserting something make it so? What is your position on the actual topic?

    Comment by JD (7510a7) — 9/8/2009 @ 9:00 am

  34. Mike Royko always told us to ask, when Mayor Daley got his 50 geldings in the Chicago City Council to pass a new ordinance, “Cui bono?” Who benefits?

    We have a healthcare system that works. Nobody is denied healthcare. It’s not making some people as rich as they would like to be, though, as far as I can see. Who benefits from Obamacare?

    Comment by nk (df76d4) — 9/8/2009 @ 9:08 am

  35. Maybe the illegals will be covered on the Oregon plan?

    Illegals should just get a free ticket to Russia or wherever they came from.

    Child molesters should definitely be covered on the Oregon plan.

    Comment by Michael Ejercito (833607) — 9/8/2009 @ 9:11 am

  36. JW, I think Obama is a muslim born in Kenya. And I have a concern about Obama’s Indonesian National status regarding his early education as it ties to US citizenship. But, according to US law, if his mother was a US citizen, he was born a US citizen.

    I have not done any research into any of that, but, from my hearsay understanding of Indonesian law, the Obama family used false information somewhere along the way for Obama to get preferential educational treatment. I am not a “birther” because I trust his mother was a US citizen. But I question his hiding of his birth certificate and all his school reports. If there is nothing to hide, why hide that stuff? If he’s the smartest person ever to make President, why hide his 2.0 gpa at Ivy League schools?

    The dots do not connect, but that doesn’t mean he’s not a born citizen. It just means he’s dishonest in the basic things. And if he’s dishonest in the basic things and dishonest in some of the major things (as proven repeatedly), he cannot be trusted in ANY thing.

    Comment by John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/8/2009 @ 9:12 am

  37. I think for reals if we are going to have dirty socialist health cares then I think the illegals should be invited. It won’t be long before our little country and Mexico is same same anyways.

    I think Mexico actually has a better financial profile than we do. They must be doing something right.

    Comment by happyfeet (71f55e) — 9/8/2009 @ 9:21 am

  38. Does anyone understand why it costs $6000 to fix a broken wrist?

    I mean, it did not cost that much back in 1909, much less 1809- or 1809 B.C.

    If we had price controls on health care, health care would be more affordable. What would be the side effects?

    Ah, JW, policy by anecdote. Let me try:

    I have excellent health insurance through my wife’s work and, therefore, we shouldn’t have to do any health care reform! Also, all of my friends have good to excellent health care coverage from various sources. There’s no need for reform!!

    See what I did there?

    Back in the 1990′s, Hillary Clinton used an anecdote to support health care reform.

    Then the truth came out…

    Comment by Michael Ejercito (833607) — 9/8/2009 @ 9:21 am

  39. Comment by nk — 9/8/2009 @ 8:54 am
    You know what? You are right. Still a pig though. But right. Consider yourself promoted. I know, thank me later. If you keep making sensible comments like this, who knows, I might start to think differently of you.

    Comment by The Emperor (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 9:28 am

  40. In the US: We… Pay… More… For… Less.

    That.Is.A.Lie.

    In the US, We pay more in order to support the people who pay less. It’s not just that health care (and health insurance) is more expensive for the people who pay, because the extra goes to cover the expenses of those who don’t; it’s also that we end up subsidizing the rest of the world — you brag that Canadians pay less for prescriptions without noting that what the Canadians pay does not cover the cost of the research that goes into producing new drugs; that expense is 100% covered by American consumers and taxpayers. The US has (and has paid for) many multiples of the numbers of MRI machines and other expensive facilities that other countries have per capita; those facilities are available to users from other countries without their paying the up-front costs of putting them in place. And that’s not even counting that the “cost of health care” in the United States also has to keep the entire “personal injury” tort lawyer industry in arugula and Lexuses.

    This cost-shifting system worked fine for many years. What broke it was the influx of illegal immigrants, most of whom do not pay into the system at all and are strictly burdens on the other payers, coupled with the ever-increasing entitlements demanded by us baby boomers. We might, at a stretch, be able to cover the new entitlements; we might, by straining every sinew, figure out a way to cover the illegals. We cannot do both. The resources aren’t there.

    One of the first effects of any system along the lines of 3200 will be that the cost of health care for Canadians, Europeans, and many other people around the world will increase by a significant amount, because the Americans will no longer be subsidizing them. You will also see a precipitous decline in the number of new drugs, treatments, and equipment available for health care and maintenance, because nobody will be willing to pay the researchers to develop them or the producers to provide them. In the short term it might provide some benefit to some people; in the long term it’s a disaster — a pretty good description of most any Leftoid prescription for the way things ought to work.

    Obama and the Democratic leadership claim this is going to be all profit. They know that’s not so, which makes them liars; you haven’t figured it out, which makes you a dupe. We aren’t impressed by your intelligence.

    Regards,
    Ric

    Comment by Ric Locke (3d3364) — 9/8/2009 @ 9:32 am

  41. I’m sure everyone remembers watching MASH. In one episode, the money-grubbing hypocritical Republican (lower c) christian Frank Burns said “It says here that a Doctor should base his pay for major surgery on 15 percent of the patient’s annual income.” The kind-hearted lecherous drunkard liberal top-notch surgeons, Trapper and Hawkeye, threw things at Burns. How did things get so much more expensive than the money-grubbing Burns was drooling over? Malpractice insurance is not cheap. Doing unnecessary tests to prevent malpractice lawsuits is not cheap. Doctors are paid far less than their own personal costs for treating Medicare/Medicaid patients and must recoup those costs somehow. Any insurance I get must cover me for gynecological issues. Any insurance DRJ gets must cover her for Lance Armstrong disease. It is illegal to have out-of-state insurance policies (contrary to the US Constitution).

    Want to fix the cost problem? Real TORT reform is a start. But that would kill Democrat coffers. Interstate portability and buyability is another avenue to reduce costs. Again, killing political coffers. Getting rid of “one-size-fits-all” regulations, so I don’t need insurance for my ob/gyn visits would provide further reductions in insurance costs. Again, that would take money and power away from the Ivory Towers and put it back in the hands of the people directly effected. And statists don’t want that. They only want the “crisis” issue.

    Comment by John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/8/2009 @ 9:43 am

  42. Comment by nk — 9/8/2009 @ 8:54 am
    You know what? You are right. Still a pig though. But right. Consider yourself promoted. I know, thank me later. If you keep making sensible comments like this, who knows, I might start to think differently of you.

    Comment by The Emperor — 9/8/2009 @ 9:28 am

    Get lost, you filthy little spammer. You’re not fooling anyone, least of all me.

    Comment by nk (df76d4) — 9/8/2009 @ 9:51 am

  43. I could tell one myself — I’m now over $20K in the hole for health care, and have no way to pay for it. I got the health care, though, like everybody else does.

    I wonder if price controls would have made that amount smaller.

    Comment by Michael Ejercito (833607) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:01 am

  44. Yes, Michael Ejercito, price controls would have made the cost (and the medical care) non-existent.

    Comment by John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:03 am

  45. [...] An interesting slip by Obama regarding illegals and health care, over at Patterico’s. [...]

    Pingback by Gazzer’s Gabfest » Ooh, look, something shiny… (b98ad6) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:04 am

  46. Michael,

    Have you considered price controls for health care? I’ve heard good things about it. Maybe you could advocate for them.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:04 am

  47. I am not in favor of Obama’s plan but here is a real life example of how nuts medical costs are.

    My son fell while skateboarding and hit his mouth on the ground. This attached his upper lip to his braces. I took him to the local hospital ER room.

    In preparation for the doctor detaching the lip from the braces, the nurse injected lidocaine into my son’s lip. During the injection process, the lip detached from the braces. No other treatment was done or required.

    We were there less than 30 minutes. The cost? $1080. My insurance said this was an out of network hospital So I paid 100%.

    Comment by Duke Nulem (d9d8ce) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:06 am

  48. What is this hoo-ha about price controls?

    Comment by JD (7510a7) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:08 am

  49. Just found this great video of Jack Webb schooling Obama http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4r6YCUtxfs

    Comment by Duke Nulem (d9d8ce) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:10 am

  50. Comment by nk — 9/8/2009 @ 9:51 am
    You sound like you are very hurt, yes? I would recommend anger management classes.
    Your promotion still stands.

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as "blog-czar"! (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:12 am

  51. JW Dem – Still no comment on the substance of the post?

    Comment by JD (7510a7) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:20 am

  52. How does a false projection form a title for a post? Obviously you know the difference between the word “imply” and to actually mean it. This is what you choose to read from his words. Not his actual words. It’s called projecting your view point on another person.
    Question: Is Obama saying that illegals will be covered in his health care plan? Are those his actual words or your own way of reading it?

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as "blog-czar"! (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:25 am

  53. re: the $6000 wrist fracture. Most wrist fractures, unless it is open, can be treated in the ER or even in the docs office. A friend of mine broke his, an intraarticular distal radius fracture, playing tennis. He saw an orthopod who no longer accepts Medicare and may have quit all insurance. He casted the fracture although most of them (if they involve the joint) require an open fixation to keep the joint perfectly lined up. Luckily, the guy got the bone lined up perfectly and he didn’t have to have an open surgery. He did lay around with his arm elevated for two weeks. Total cost was less than $1,000.

    Most of these horror stories are either conflating doctor and hospital bills or quoting “retail” price which is about 300 to 400% of what is actually paid by the insurance company. Medicare pays between 10% and 20% of billed charges.

    I’m not saying the guy was lying, just that he didn’t know what he was talking about. There have been cases in which hospitals charged retail to uninsured and tried to collect. There was a WSJ front page story about this a couple of years ago that concerned Yale Medical Center. That should be illegal but, in fact, it is illegal to bill an uninsured patient less. Doctors still do it quietly.

    I once had a women cleaning my house to pay for her mastectomy. She had no insurance. Of course, the illegal alien whose life I saved on Memorial Day 1986, after he was hit by the train, told me he was “too busy” to mow my lawn to pay for his surgery.

    Comment by Mike K (2cf494) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:27 am

  54. Lovie, how’s your retraction coming? And you should maybe actually learn what “imply” and “candor” mean, since you have been incorrectly applying those terms.

    Comment by John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:27 am

  55. Ric: “In the US, We pay more in order to support the people who pay less…
    Dream on. Google: “profit margin for pharmaceutical companies”
    Ric: “Canada does not cover the cost of the research that goes into producing new drugs”
    Neither does big Pharma.
    http://www.cptech.org/ip/health/econ/govrnd.html
    And who profits?
    Google: “US government funding for pharmaceutical research” and “Canadian government funding for pharmaceutical research”

    Ric: “What broke it was the influx of illegal immigrants, most of whom do not pay into the system at all and are strictly burdens on the other payers”
    No.
    “http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/01/news/economy/immigration_economy/index.htm”
    “Illegal workers: good for U.S. economy. The U.S. has benefited from illegal immigrants, most economists say, though some low-skilled workers have been hurt.”

    You have no idea WTF you’re talking about, but you’re angry.
    It’s nice having someone else to blame for your mistakes.

    Comment by JW Democrat (213e20) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:30 am

  56. I’m assuming, stashiu3 #14, that JW operates under the “If only one…” rule of policy making.

    you know that one in all of its various forms?

    “If only one child could be saved from a head injury …”

    “If only one Polish/Mongolian American could be spared the heartbreak of Lime Green Tartar Molarity…”

    “If only a single Alpaca can be rescued from the heartbreak of psoriasis …”

    IT WOULD HAVE BEEN WORTH THE EFFORT!!!

    Comment by BJTexs (a2cb5a) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:33 am

  57. You have no idea WTF you’re talking about, but you’re angry.
    It’s nice having someone else to blame for your mistakes.
    Comment by JW Democrat — 9/8/2009 @ 10:30 am

    My irony-meter just pegged, then busted.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:33 am

  58. money.cnn.com is very wise. It knows things.

    Comment by happyfeet (71f55e) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:34 am

  59. JW Dem,

    google economics 101.

    then google the U.S. Constitution and read it.

    Then google the Federalist Papers and read those.

    After you have read those things and have a basic understanding, come back and discuss things.

    Comment by Monkeytoe (e66874) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:42 am

  60. Emperor,

    Either Obama meant that illegals would be covered or he is an idiot. Which are you implying? Since you are saying that he didn’t mean that illegals would be covered, it stands to reason that you believe he does not know what he is talking about when he throws around the alleged number of uninsured people in America. which, would make him an idiot, right?

    Comment by Monkeytoe (e66874) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:44 am

  61. Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as “blog-czar”! — 9/8/2009 @ 10:25 am

    Now lovey is accusing Patterico of lying or being misleading. This should end well.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:45 am

  62. Comment by Stashiu3 — 9/8/2009 @ 10:45 am

    I think our host can take constructive and objective criticism. Can you?

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as "blog-czar"! (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:50 am

  63. JW Dhimmi – What is your position on the actual topic. You should be embarassed by your response to Ric, but your lack of basic self-awareness seems to drive you.

    Comment by JD (d3f3ab) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:52 am

  64. Lovie aka Chimperor – When you offer good-faithed constructive criticism, let us know.

    Comment by JD (d3f3ab) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:53 am

  65. I love that money.cnn article that is cited.

    It contains no factual evidence to support anything, just a bunch of vague unsupported statements by a couple of economists. And that is supposed to prove something.

    Also, it is from 2006, and states that the illegals don’t hurt that much b/c the labor force would be reduced by about 3% w/o them. Let’s see, what is the difference here? could it be that we were at full employment then (around 5% unemployment) and now we are at almost 10% unemployment? Maybe that 3% of the labor pool makes a big difference now?

    Also, that article does not in any way analyze public spending on illegals (i.e., health care / prision, welfare, education), only illegals “effect” on the economy.

    Yes, illegals are good for the economy in the sense that they perform low paying jobs and keep wages down, allowing some sectors of the economy to grow.

    However, the costs imposed by the illegals (through health care [emergency room], prison, etc], particulary the many, many illegals not working, is much greater than that benefit.

    If the left really believed the illegals were such a tremenduous benefit on our economy, they would have no problem securing the boarder and enforcing the immigration laws, b/c they would know that we knuckle-draggers would suddenly see the economic impact and agree to allow rampant illegal immigration again.

    As to “big Pharma”, I’ll agree to put a cap on the profits pharmacutical companies can make when the left agrees to put a cap on the amount trial lawyers can make.

    How much did John Edwards junk science lawsuits end up increasing health care costs for all americans? And he is living it up with his wife, mistriss and illegitimate child. Even after science proved his cases all b.s., he gets to keep the money he bilked out of the system? And dems complain about companies creating drugs that save lives? Yet refuse to do anything about trial lawyers – who give no real value to society?

    Comment by Monkeytoe (e66874) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:56 am

  66. I think our host can take constructive and objective criticism. Can you?
    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as “blog-czar”! — 9/8/2009 @ 10:50 am

    Obviously.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:57 am

  67. That was probably too subtle for lovey. Oh well.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:02 am

  68. Comment by Monkeytoe — 9/8/2009 @ 10:44 am
    I ask you this instead. Do you believe this is the President’s position on this? In all honesty and good conscience. Why are you more prone to believe he was referring to the 10 million illegals without health care and not the other 36 million who have a right to health care but don’t have it? Who was he actually talking to in that speech? Illegals or Americans without health care coverage?

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as "blog-czar"! (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:06 am

  69. JW, no matter what you claim a dead soldier did, he’s not here to defend himself. It’s lame to use that as an argument, especially when we’re talking about Obama giving healthcare to people who aren’t citizens and came to the nation illegally largely to get free stuff.

    That soldier swore to defend our nation and Obama is promising free stuff to people who break its laws. Your argument is pointless.

    Rush is right, if you don’t have health insurance, you should be very careful not to get injured. Most of the injuries I’ve had were things I could have avoided if I was more careful. Soldiers do enlist for money to feed their family or for school. That doesn’t mean Obama should give everyone hamburgers and free college, though I’m sure you would make the argument.

    We NEED soldiers. If we get them with a good military service with benefits, then that’s not a bad thing. Free health care for all would not mean soldiers no longer die in wars. Your argument seems to be that we’d have fewer volunteers in our military if you got your way. It’s such a bad argument it’s hard to even understand why you made it, but I know why. You said that because it was very ugly, and you want to hurt people who care about soldiers.

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:12 am

  70. Why are you more prone to believe he was referring to the 10 million illegals without health care and not the other 36 million who have a right to health care but don’t have it?
    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as “blog-czar”! — 9/8/2009 @ 11:06 am

    Since you just admitted that the 46 million includes 10 million illegal aliens, and President Obama is the one who used the 46 million figure, I would believe he meant to include him based on his own words. That’s what you wanted, right? For us to go by his words? If you had read the post and not just the title, this was already explained. Yet, you still accused Patterico of lying or misleading.

    Unwise.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:12 am

  71. Chimperor – where does this Right exist? Why do you try to disingenuously try to seaparate out the 36M and 10M when Teh One made no effort to do so? He was talking specifically about all 46M, which includes the illegals.

    Comment by JD (d3f3ab) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:13 am

  72. Emperor, without a doubt, Obama’s position in his heart is to give free* health care to illegals, and Obama wants very much to convince the left that he will do so without making an explicit promise.

    And of course he also wants to give free* health care to the rest of us, too. But the real point is to buy votes, so this new class of expected new citizens is a key target.

    *paid for by rich people

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:15 am

  73. If lovie actually retracted all of the misinformed, incorrect, and flat-out lies she’s been called on, there would be no band-width left here for anybody else to post/comment/etc.

    Comment by AD - RtR/OS! (13c1a1) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:15 am

  74. I see Lovie the Chimperor is intent on beclowning itself today.

    Comment by JD (d3f3ab) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:25 am

  75. Please. I need concrete evidence that Obama wants to give coverage to illegals in his plan. Links. Quotes from the President himself. Proofs. Once I see it I will retract and renounce my previous comments.

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as "blog-czar"! (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:27 am

  76. I ask you this instead. Do you believe this is the President’s position on this? In all honesty and good conscience. Why are you more prone to believe he was referring to the 10 million illegals without health care and not the other 36 million who have a right to health care but don’t have it? Who was he actually talking to in that speech? Illegals or Americans without health care coverage?

    Umm, since he mentioned the 46 million figure – which you admit contains 10 million illegals – he obviously meant to include the illegals. Or else he is as dumb as a rock and does not know what the figures mean. Which do you believe?

    Also, for the record, the 46 million # is complete and utter B.S. there are about 4-5 million people who currently can’t get or afford healtch care insurance. the rest are either young people who don’t want to buy any right now, illegals, or people who are covered by some program but failed to enroll.

    Like all lib numbers, it is false. when the libs start debating in good faith with real facts, then maybe we can come to some sort of compromise.

    Comment by Monkeytoe (e66874) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:28 am

  77. Please. He said 46 million. You admitted that number includes illegal aliens. His words, that you confirmed. If he didn’t mean to include illegal aliens, he would have used your 36 million number above. Unless you think President Obama is stupid and doesn’t understand the numbers. Is that your new contention?

    Why would you say Patterico is lying or misleading and then confirm his point?

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:32 am

  78. Comment by nk — 9/8/2009 @ 9:51 am
    You sound like you are very hurt, yes? I would recommend anger management classes.
    Your promotion still stands.

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as “blog-czar”! — 9/8/2009 @ 10:12 am

    Look, asshole, you are too fucking stupid to notice but I ignore you here. Except one time recently when you gratiously insulted Stashiu. So don’t talk to me unless I talk to you first, ok, fuckboy?

    Comment by nk (df76d4) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:34 am

  79. Lovie – You admitted that the 46M number used by Teh One contains 10M illegals. You are asking for proof of the information that you have agreed is accurate. You are being a disingenuous twit, which appears to be your default setting.

    Comment by JD (d3f3ab) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:34 am

  80. lovie still hasn’t retracted the slander against me.

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:40 am

  81. It was libel SPQR. ;) And no, she hasn’t.

    nk, I’m really much more focused on lovey’s accusation against SPQR and Patterico. It would be nice for her to admit she was wrong about President Obama regarding the topic, but there is little chance based on her history. As for insulting me, no biggie IMO. She’s done it more than once before.

    Stashiu3 = Duck’s back
    Lovey’s words = water

    ;)

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:45 am

  82. Emp is just baiting. the entire point of this blog post was that Obama is IMPLYING something. He is not stupid, and knows he has to fly under the radar.

    Emp’s goalposts are on the moon. Obama doesn’t tell us clearly what he aims to do, and that’s why he ran as a deficit cutting tax cutting dude who would get out of Iraq in a few months. He certainly didn’t promise the presidency we got.

    When a caller asked about illegal immigrants under health care reform, Obama said the topic is one of many where misinformation has taken root. “This has been an example of just pure misinformation out there. None of the bills that have been voted on in Congress, and none of the proposals coming out of the White House propose giving coverage to illegal immigrants — none of them,” he said. “That has never been on the table; nobody has discussed it. So everybody who is listening out there, when you start hearing that somehow this is all designed to provide health insurance to illegal immigrants, that is simply not true and has never been the case.”

    This is a good key to go on. Obama is using all kinds of quibbling here. ‘Not designed’. ‘Nobody has discussed it.’ Of course, the illegals get coverage if the bill doesn’t forbid it, not the other way around. And if you believe it hasn’t even been discussed, you’re absolutely crazy.

    When Obama’s asked point blank if the democrat health care bill will give health insurance to illegals, all Obama had to say was ‘no’. He can’t, though. He can only say ‘It’s not designed to.. we haven’t talked about it… um…. clearly’

    Just say ‘no’, Obama. But he is trying to convince the hispanic community that the answer is yes without being too obvious about it to the rest of us.

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:46 am

  83. With folks like you, who needs drugs!
    No matter how you choose to twist it, Obama did not say he was giving coverage to illegals. At least not in the link provided. I believe he was working with the assumption that those 46 million were the people who should get it. Not illegals. He may not have known about the breakdown of that number. That is how I choose to read it. If not provide a link that proves Obama wants to give health care coverage to illegals . Leave the insults. It tells me you are losing the argument. Proof. Give it to me.

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as "blog-czar"! (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:46 am

  84. He may not have known about the breakdown of that number.
    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as “blog-czar”! — 9/8/2009 @ 11:46 am

    So you believe he’s stupid? Thanks for playing.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:50 am

  85. “those 46 million were the people who should get it. Not illegals. ”

    It’s well known that this number includes illegals. So Obama implied something very strongly by using that number, didn’t he?

    You keep saying we’re losing the argument, but you are the one promising something huge, that Obama didn’t know the basic breakdown of the most relevant statistic of the huge project he’s worked on for months.

    You can chose to read it however you want; you’re still wrong. Obama is promising to cover illegals. You know it, and that’s how I chose to read your post.

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:51 am

  86. Nobody’s drowning. All people in America get health care. There are some people who would rather buy a TV instead of paying their doctor. They want their doctor to be paid with other people’s money. That’s what Obamacare is about.

    Comment by nk (df76d4) — 9/8/2009 @ 11:55 am

  87. “Well, hopefully the impact wont be that much the CATO institutes latest report shows the illegal population down to 8.7 million and dropping 50,000 or more a month”

    This stat makes a mockery of all the pro-amnesty talking points … you cant deport them? They self-deport themselves soon enough. we have to act now or sky will fall? Doing nothing has made the problem less problematic. Lets do no amnesty for another 2 years.

    “It’s well known that this number includes illegals. So Obama implied something very strongly by using that number, didn’t he?”

    He’s a liar using phony stats, that’s what it proves.

    “Please. I need concrete evidence that Obama wants to give coverage to illegals in his plan.”

    He also said in an interview that illegal aliens wont be covered. he’s a liar.
    What he didnt say was that republican amendment to verifiably enforce that were voted down by democrats.

    “No matter how you choose to twist it, Obama did not say he was giving coverage to illegals. ”

    He denies a lot of real consequences of the bill. Nothing new here.

    Comment by Travis Monitor (483b36) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:00 pm

  88. Comment by nk — 9/8/2009 @ 11:34 am
    Just when I was beginning to have some hope for you, you sink back again into the filthiness of your ways. *sighs*. But I am not giving up on you. I know you can change. I just believe you can. It’s in YOU!

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as "blog-czar"! (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:02 pm

  89. Only trouble is, according to the Census Bureau, almost 10 million of that 46 million figure are illegal immigrants.

    Patterico, did you read the Census report itself or did you only read the Ed Morrisey blog post ?

    It looks to me like the Census Bureau is only reporting that 9.4 million non-citizens are uninsured. That’s hardly the same things as 9.4 million illegal immigrants. As we all know, there are plenty of non-citizens who are living in the U.S. legally.

    The error that Jazz Shaw (quoted by Morrissey) made is fairly obvious just from the quote Morrissey excerpted, actually:

    Next, we need to go back to the Census Bureau report and turn to page 31 where we are informed that their total number includes the category of those who are listed as “non-citizens” (which are carefully broken out from naturalized citizens vs. native born citizens.) The non-citizen rate of uninsured individuals clocked in at 43.8%, or roughly 9.4 million non-Americans. Since these people are not here legally …

    Any non-citizen is not here legally? I don’t think so.

    There’s an estimate of 6.8 million uninsured illegals (6.1 million adults and 700,000 children) but it’s from the Pew Hispanic Center, not the Census Bureau. See this piece. It looks like there is no official Census Burea count of the number of uninsured illegals.

    Politifact has some more info and ended up rating Obama’s statement “mostly true”.

    Comment by Foo Bar (f74432) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:04 pm

  90. There’s something called SAVE, the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements.

    When blue dogs tried to put a provision in the HR 3200 to make sure free* health insurance would not go to illegals, the White House and House Democrat leaders blocked the effort. Check it out

    They are explicitly and deliberately trying to make sure there is no enforcement ability to prevent illegals from getting health care. There has been an extensive discussion of the cost of not excluding illegals. When Obama is asked if his bill will give benefits to illegals, he simply lied when he said no discussion of this kind had ever taken place.

    When asked if his bill will give benefits to illegals, he won’t say ‘nope’, he says ‘it’s not designed to!’ It’s deliberately not designed not to. that’s the bullshit we get from our president. Instead of leading from the front, he relies on confusion.

    And he has sycophant extreme leftists like Emperor (who probably refuse to admit what they are, either), who will try very hard to be as disingenuous as possible about it.

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:05 pm

  91. Ahh,

    so the chimperor’s argument is that Obama is too stupid to know what makes up the figures he is using as the sole reason to socialize 1/5 of America’s economy!!

    I guess I can’t argue with that. Obama’s either stupid and does not understand anything or else he is constantly lying. So, you and I agree chimpster – Obama is an imbecile. And, his quote and your defense of it is the solid proof we all need.

    Comment by Monkeytoe (e66874) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:05 pm

  92. “HR 3200 currently contains a section that does ban illegal immigrants from being covered but excludes any enforcement mechanism. When such a mechanism was introduced it was voted down. So like this set of Congressional Donks to leave a talking point intact while knowing they can “back door” illegals and gain some political fodder.”

    BINGO.

    The ground truth of the matter has finally been hit.

    Covering illegals is NOT popular, but the Dems need to hit their talking point numbers. Solution? Cover them while pretending not to.

    Comment by Travis Monitor (8d33ce) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:08 pm

  93. Comment by nk — 9/8/2009 @ 11:34 am
    Just when I was beginning to have some hope for you, you sink back again into the filthiness of your ways. *sighs*. But I am not giving up on you. I know you can change. I just believe you can. It’s in YOU!

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as “blog-czar”! — 9/8/2009 @ 12:02 pm

    Do you seriously not realize what a creepy creature you are?

    Comment by nk (df76d4) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:08 pm

  94. foobar, there are more than ten million illegals in the USA. You don’t accept that?

    And even if it’s 7 million covered instead of ten, Obama’s use of a figure that covers all of them. That’s the point.

    I don’t understand why non citizens should get this benefit regardless of whether they are illegals or guest workers, but Obama is explicitly promising to help all of them. His party’s efforts to strip out the basic enforcement mechanism, SAVE, from being used to control whether illegals get freebies makes it obvious that this isn’t discussed in the bill, by design, to ensure illegals get the freebie.

    Your complaint is that the breakdown is 7 million illegals instead of 10? so what?

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:09 pm

  95. Yes, you do, actually. It’s your job to be a creep.

    To whomever has administrative privileges here, please ban this worm.

    Comment by nk (df76d4) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:11 pm

  96. Nobody believes the 47 million number.

    I chose not to purchase medical insurance from the time I was 18 until I was almost 30. I preferred to spend my money college, a car, and entertainment. When I broke a limb skateboarding or mt biking, or needed an antibiotic for some illness, I paid out of pocket. I suspect a majority of the single 18-30 year old males currently do the same.

    Comment by william (fe3a60) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:13 pm

  97. “So just to recap here, if you’re one of nearly 46 million people who don’t have health insurance, you will finally have quality, affordable options.”

    1.) Good. You pay for it. I don’t want to. The government has no right to force me to pay other people’s bills.

    2.) The goal of libs, like the New Messiah, is to force EVERYONE onto government controlled health care…and I don’t want to be forced. This program will just be a step in that direction.

    3.) Liberal Democrats have already used government health care programs to murder innocent people in cold blood. I wouldn’t trust liberals with a burnt out match, much less give them any control over my health care.

    Comment by Dave Surls (ba0cc8) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:19 pm

  98. foobar, there are more than ten million illegals in the USA. You don’t accept that?

    I do accept that. Pew estimates that 5 million of them have health insurance. Read the Politifact link I left.

    whether they are illegals or guest worker

    I am going to assume you are familiar with the concept of a non-citizen permanent resident, in spite of what you wrote here.

    Your complaint is that the breakdown is 7 million illegals instead of 10? so what?

    7 million is from Pew and is not an official government number. The Census Bureau is not allowed to ask about immigration status, so there is no official Census Bureau number. Patterico’s post suggests that if only Obama knew the details of the same government report on which the 46 million number is probably based, then he would know how many of that total are illegal immigrants. This is not true. Obama doesn’t look nearly as bad if he’s failing to correct for an unofficial estimate like the Pew number.

    Comment by Foo Bar (f74432) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:22 pm

  99. Comment by SPQR — 9/8/2009 @ 11:40 am
    Why? The website connected to your name links to a “Debunkers” site. Couple that with your habit of debunking every comment that flies in the face of everything you believe to be true, and it’s easy to reach the same conclusion. Okay, maybe you are not paid to do it. But it’s what you do. You are a debunker, SPQR. And it’s nothing to be ashamed of.

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as "blog-czar"! (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:23 pm

  100. Poos Far makes another timely appearance of talking out of it’s arse, and of course addressing the host as if he’s at his moniter right now, just waiting with baited breath to jump on his keyboard. As JD would say, you can feel the moronic convergence of asshattery Trolls forming right now.

    BTW Poos Far, the host is rarely available during the workday or evenings, due to the time constraints regarding his full – time occupation. So either address the other commenters here, or get used to your posts having the impact of a fart in the wind.

    Comment by Dmac (a93b13) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:24 pm

  101. Interesting, Foobar. You seem to be saying that Obama just doesn’t understand the figure includes all the illegals (however many they are).

    but we know, for a fact, that the democrats stripped out the enforcement mechanism that was the only way to prevent illegals from getting free* health insurance, so we know what Obama’s up to.

    This rhetorical device of Patterico’s, that Obama knows millions of the people in this 46 million figure are indeed not US citizens, makes sense, but the real proof is in the bill.

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:26 pm

  102. William, I think more young men should not have health insurance. They should save up some money for emergencies, but they come out way ahead if they pay for their medical care out of pocket. Universal insurance is wealth distribution from them to everyone else.

    If they have a true catastrophe, their health insurance wasn’t going to pay for the whole thing anyway.

    In other words, when people complain about the millions without health insurance, I think that the number of uninsured should go up.

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:29 pm

  103. get used to your posts having the impact of a fart in the wind.

    It will be difficult to get used to that given that he edited a post based on one of my comments yesterday.

    Comment by Foo Bar (f74432) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:29 pm

  104. I think Foo Bar has a good point if his numbers are correct. I’m not disputing them, just haven’t had time to look at them closely yet. If he’s right then, as he says, President Obama was still wrong, just not quite as wrong. Fair enough and thank you Foo Bar, I’ll try to take a closer look soon.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:34 pm

  105. Obama is not the only Dem politico throwing around the 46 million dollar number like a spear. I’ve heard Spector use it as well as others.

    The real breakdown from the 2000 Census includes the following (numbers are approximate)

    Illegals and non-citizens 10.5 million
    Those eligible for Medicaid who haven’t signed up: 8 million.
    Those who choose not to pay for insurance: 8 million
    Those who need insurance but can’t afford it: 8-12 million

    If one does the math one notices that we are missing between 7.5 & 11.5 million from this little formula. Who are they?

    By the metric imposed on the reporting of the Census, anyone who was uncovered for as little as a day due to job hopping or some such was reported as “uncovered.”

    As mentioned before, the 46 million number is fraudulent but it is considerably sexier when bleating about the “uninsured” than 8-13 million.

    I would put to the Emperor that Obama knows this and continues to use the number to shamelessly push what he has consistently stated prior to his election: He wants a single payer system.

    That’s the goal. The fact that he’s unlikely to get just that does not in any way prevent him from pimping the misery numbers.

    Comment by BJTexs (a2cb5a) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:37 pm

  106. I agree that foo bar is making am much more worthwhile argument than emperor, but foo bar isn’t trying to troll the thread.

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:38 pm

  107. The Emperor, you made a specific accusation that you’ve have not and cannot back up. Now you are doing that slimy little thing of yours where you imply that I should not be ashamed of something you can’t actually define or prove.

    Prove the accusation or withdraw it. Anything else establishes you as without integrity.

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:42 pm

  108. This is so good. Foo Bar is da mon! It’s interesting to see how people begin to tear their pants once they are confronted with hard evidence. Don’t respond to the insults, Foo Bar, keep hitting them with the facts. (Grabs popcorn….)

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as "blog-czar"! (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:42 pm

  109. SPQR,

    She’s going to claim that this:

    Okay, maybe you are not paid to do it.
    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as “blog-czar”! — 9/8/2009 @ 12:23 pm

    was a retraction. The fact that nobody else would agree with her will conveniently be ignored. It’s what she does. Now, she’ll try to shift focus to Foo Bar to avoid admitting her own errors.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:47 pm

  110. Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as “blog-czar”! — 9/8/2009 @ 12:42 pm

    It’s a burden being this good. (I was making my prediction while she was fulfilling it. Didn’t see her new comment before posting.)

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:49 pm

  111. Emperor, you were confronted with hard evidence and decided to insult a bunch of people and demand a ridiculous level of proof for something that’s already obvious.

    And now you’re defending foo bar when people are being nice to him?

    You’re just trying to stir up as much trouble as possible. Foo bar doesn’t want you defending him. You’re a loser.

    You’ve demanding that everyone prove to you that Obama isn’t doing what he’s doing… why don’t you live up to your standard? Provide proof that Obama has promised his bill will ensure illegals aren’t covered. Not some bullshit statement that it’s not ‘discussed’ or ‘in the bill’, but that it’s not going to happen, or that Obama doesn’t want it to happen.

    I’m holding my breath!

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:49 pm

  112. Stashiu3, probably but whatever The Emperor does, its certain to show a lack of integrity masquerading as cluelessness.

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:53 pm

  113. Patterico’s post suggests that if only Obama knew the details of the same government report on which the 46 million number is probably based, then he would know how many of that total are illegal immigrants. This is not true. Obama doesn’t look nearly as bad if he’s failing to correct for an unofficial estimate like the Pew number.

    Meaning what exactly? Where does the 46 million number come from? According to the Census Bureau, there are currently 304 million people in the U.S.

    If 46 million Americans are uninsured, that means that roughly 1 in 7 individuals do not have health insurance of any kind. Does anyone believe that number? Anyone?

    So, Obama’s “facts” are a lie to begin with. He has lied on almost every issue he has discussed. Are 95% of americans still expected to get a tax cut? Did the porkulus keep unemployment from reaching 8%? Did he not really know Bill Ayers?

    If you take Obama’s penchent for lying and add a) the only way to even have a remotely passable argument for 46 million is to include illegals; and b) the democrats voted against specifically excluding illegals in the bill – you get that Obama knows when he mentions “46 million” he is including illegals.

    there is no other rational explanation, unless you argue that obama does not know what he is talking about. I am willing to believe that, but it is one or the other. Any other arguments are spin doctor b.s. – and the people making the arguments know it.

    Comment by Monkeytoe (e66874) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:54 pm

  114. …its certain to show a lack of integrity masquerading as cluelessness.
    Comment by SPQR — 9/8/2009 @ 12:53 pm

    That is one of the most accurate statements made in the history of ever.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:58 pm

  115. Comment by Stashiu3 — 9/8/2009 @ 12:49 pm

    Where is all these “she” coming from? Do you prefer I refer to you as a she-goat? Would that be fair?

    Prove the accusation or withdraw it. Anything else establishes you as without integrity.

    Comment by SPQR — 9/8/2009 @ 12:42 pm
    What accusation? Remind me.

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as "blog-czar"! (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 12:58 pm

  116. lovie – Let’s make a deal. Let’s promise that at least one of us is paying attention when you say something.

    Comment by JD (75b7c2) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:00 pm

  117. Emperor is too busy to bother keeping track of all the insults and slur he she or it has made. but one thing’s for sure, we should be addressing all of emperor’s requests, or we have ‘lost’.

    the term Czar is associated with miserable failures and overreaching in Russian history and Obama’s administration, so I agree that Emperor is the blog czar.

    Emperor has made several demands that have been answered, but has ignored every one of my requests of Emperor. It will ask for proof, and when you give it you will be ignored. Just another loser.

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:02 pm

  118. Though I see the difference in what Foo Bar claims, that in no way changes the fact that Barcky included these millions of illegals in the number he referenced.

    Comment by JD (75b7c2) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:04 pm

  119. Exactly, JD. Obama knows that a huge fraction of that 46 million is illegals. He also knows that these numbers are very murky and in constant dispute.

    So Patterico said it was ten million illegals instead of 8, 7, or 9. That doesn’t change that Obama included millions of uninsured illegals as a problem he intends to fix.

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:06 pm

  120. I’m Nostradamus.

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:07 pm

  121. No need to get your skirts ruffled lovey, I’ll use gender-neutral from now on. Or go back to mostly ignoring you. Probably both.

    But you know why. No need to discuss it further.

    Let’s discuss why you said Patterico is a liar or misleads instead. Or why you still won’t retract or substantiate your accusation against SPQR. “Let’s” meaning the commenters who will still be talking to you for the rest of the day, because I’m not likely to be one of them in your case.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (ed6467) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:07 pm

  122. Did he sockpuppet as a girl? Just curious.

    Nowhere did emperor point to anything Patterico said that wasn’t fair. Obama’s quoted accurately and the number includes millions of illegals. The implication is an assumption, but it’s not a grand one. Emperor, of course, is guilty of the exact kind of dishonesty he is accusing others of.

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:11 pm

  123. Comment by Juan — 9/8/2009 @ 12:49 pm

    Maybe this will help you Juan. Foo Bar showed up here providing facts and figures to contradict the title of this thread. But he is responded with this gem from Dmac.
    Poos Far makes another timely appearance of talking out of it’s arse, and of course addressing the host as if he’s at his moniter right now, just waiting with baited breath to jump on his keyboard. As JD would say, you can feel the moronic convergence of asshattery Trolls forming right now.

    BTW Poos Far, the host is rarely available during the workday or evenings, due to the time constraints regarding his full – time occupation. So either address the other commenters here, or get used to your posts having the impact of a fart in the wind.

    To which I now said, don’t respond to the insult. Give them facts. He was being insulted for making his point known. A habit that runs like a plague here. Especially when they don’t have anything better to say. And, Hint: Holding your breath for a long time is not healthy. Just a tip.

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as "blog-czar"! (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:12 pm

  124. There was more intellectual heft in the movie Ponyo than what Lovie aka Chimperor has provided the last couple days.

    Comment by JD (75b7c2) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:14 pm

  125. Emperor, did you sockpuppet as a girl? I’m just curious.

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:15 pm

  126. lovie-sans-integrity has used both genders at times, the question of its actual gender is not of interest to me.

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:16 pm

  127. And are you love2008? That was a Ron Paul thing, right? You claim to be a conservative but aren’t, so I think the show fits to some extent.

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:16 pm

  128. Accept it Stachie, you ain’t gat nathin.. Just straws baby. Straws.

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as "blog-czar"! (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:18 pm

  129. I realize that Juan is a ‘minority’ name, and Ron Paul hates people who aren’t pure blooded Aryans, so I don’t expect love2008 to read my comments very carefully. I just am curious about emperor, who seems obsessed with making accusations that are baseless and then demanding ridiculous levels of proof for his own heroes. I find that kind of interesting.

    My kisses taste like tacos.

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:19 pm

  130. If not provide a link that proves Obama wants to give health care coverage to illegals . Leave the insults. It tells me you are losing the argument. Proof. Give it to me.

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as “blog-czar

    I have a suggestion to settle the issue. Show us where the Democrats voted for enforcement of the limitation to citizens in the public option or other provisions of HR 3200 that involve taxpayer subsidy.

    Like this:

    . In 2008 there were approximately 37.3 million foreign-born persons in the United States. The foreign-born population was comprised of approximately 15.1 million naturalized U.S. citizens and 22.1 million noncitizens.

    H.R. 3200 includes an individual mandate to have health insurance with tax penalties for non-compliance. Individuals who do not maintain acceptable insurance coverage for themselves and their children would be required to pay an additional tax. Some individuals, including nonresident aliens, would be exempt from the individual mandate…

    Under H.R. 3200 a “Health Insurance Exchange” would begin operation in 2013 and would offer plans alongside a public option. H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitizens participating in the Exchange – whether the noncitizens are legally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently…

    Some have expressed concern that since H.R. 3200 does not contain a mechanism to verify immigration status, the prohibitions on noncitizens (e.g. nonimmigrants and unauthorized aliens) receiving the credits may not be enforced. Thus it appears absent of a provision in the bill specifying the verification procedure, that the Commissioner would be responsible for determining a mechanism to verify the eligibility of noncitizens for the credits.

    See, that’s what you do.

    Comment by Mike K (2cf494) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:23 pm

  131. This is the exact same crap that they pulled with e-verify.

    Comment by JD (75b7c2) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:27 pm

  132. Emperor, did you sockpuppet as a girl? I’m just curious.

    Comment by Juan — 9/8/2009 @ 1:15 pm
    Never. Never indicated my gender until early this year when I changed my handle. I think folks just keep lurid fantasies they can’t do away with; in their minds. They create this fantasy and project it on people. Maybe in their dreams, they are having this demonic affair with this woman called “Lovie”. Unhealthy dreams, I might add. I wish I could help them but I don’t know who this “Lovie” is.

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as "blog-czar"! (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:29 pm

  133. Hey, I appreciate you answering.

    Comment by Juan (bd4b30) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:30 pm

  134. You didn’t like Ponyo? It doesn’t look as good as Howl’s but I’ve heard good things.

    Comment by happyfeet (71f55e) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:33 pm

  135. I’m chuckling because I had a sense that the only commentator who would respond to JD’s Ponyo comment would be happyfeet.

    But it’s all good, feets! I made my Trader Joe’s run yesterday and the freezer is stocked with Mini Chicken and Beef Tacos, Thai Chicken Lemongrass rolls, quiche and, for the fridge, those amazing chicken sausages.

    Comment by BJTexs (a2cb5a) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:39 pm

  136. Comment by Mike K — 9/8/2009 @ 1:23 pm

    Thanks Doc for your input. But from your pasted info, is it up to the executive to not enforce this limitation or the congress? Is this issue still not in dispute? Here is a link that gives more perspective to the issue.
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/27/health.care.immigrants/

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as "blog-czar"! (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:47 pm

  137. Ponyo was very good, happyfeet. It was kind of a surreal mix of anime and Disney, in a very basic cartoonish format. I enjoyed it, and my little angels loved it.

    Lovie is still a retarded marmoset, be it a man, woman, or transtesticled thingie.

    Comment by JD (979402) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:51 pm

  138. Love2008 of the many other names has been adopted by DRJ as an unruly pet and the best we can do is take it while it humps our ankles, I think.

    Comment by nk (df76d4) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:56 pm

  139. Then I guess I need an industrial strength paper towel, nk.

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 9/8/2009 @ 1:57 pm

  140. Only JD.

    Comment by The Emperor who prefers to see himself as "blog-czar"! (1b037c) — 9/8/2009 @ 2:00 pm

  141. ack. Good old predictable happyfeet is it? Hey at the Trader Joe’s did they have the buffalo burgers? Mine was out last time I went and this weekend I ate the last ones what are in the freezer at least without digging around. I need to go cause I want some of their Shepherd’s Pies to bring for lunch cause of they are tasty but also healthy.

    Maybe NG and I will go this week except our freezer here at work is almost fulled up with the vegetable lasagna we like.

    Comment by happyfeet (71f55e) — 9/8/2009 @ 2:01 pm

  142. Oh, feets! They were taste testing the Buff Burgers at the Media, PA Joe’s. They are most delicious but I already had my fill of beef and did not step up. I’m trying the seafood crab puffs this week. any thoughts?

    I missed the Shepherd’s pie and will endeavor to try them on my next expedition. Joe’s is almost 30 miles from my little condo but #1 daughter lives in Media so it’s shopping and family with a possibility of a fire pit and card games.

    A two for oner!

    Comment by BJTexs (a2cb5a) — 9/8/2009 @ 2:05 pm

  143. Trader Joes? I thought we were supposed to support Whole Foods, since their CEO had the temerity to take a stand against the dirty little socialisms.

    Ponyo was created by someone that has done a fair amount of shrooms/peyote/acid.

    Comment by JD (979402) — 9/8/2009 @ 2:15 pm

  144. Holding your breath for a long time is not healthy. Just a tip.

    Neither is having to scroll through the rantings of a seriously disturbed loon. But as you say so often, just ignore it, douchebag.

    Comment by Dmac (a93b13) — 9/8/2009 @ 2:25 pm

  145. Miyazaki needs to hurry up and make more movies. If he for reals thinks he needs four years between films we might not be getting too many more out of him. His kid did a movie but I haven’t seen it yet.

    I haven’t tried the crab puffs… I’m still on restriction for what I can try cause of I’m still repairing the damage from quitting smoking. That reminds me it’s almost time for TJ’s to get their pumpkin ice cream – we missed it last year

    That can’t happen again. It just can’t.

    oh.

    damn.

    Comment by happyfeet (71f55e) — 9/8/2009 @ 2:30 pm

  146. Emperor = Girly Man sounds like one anyway.

    Illegals don’t need to be covered by health care. All they have to do is go to the hospital. No questions asked. Or apply for ACCHSS, which is Arizona’s state health for low income. No questions asked there either.

    No Trader Joe’s here :(

    Comment by PatAZ (9d1bb3) — 9/8/2009 @ 4:23 pm

  147. If there are currently 10-million illegals in the U.S. it is only because 10-12 million have self-deported themselves since the beginning of the economic melt-down.

    Comment by AD - RtR/OS! (13c1a1) — 9/8/2009 @ 4:41 pm

  148. get used to your posts having the impact of a fart in the wind.

    It will be difficult to get used to that given that he edited a post based on one of my comments yesterday.

    Comment by Foo Bar — 9/8/2009 @ 12:29 pm

    Foo Bar – Your original comment yesterday was incorrect. I had to fix it for you.

    Comment by daleyrocks (718861) — 9/8/2009 @ 4:51 pm

  149. [...] August Pundit & Pundette: What do 83% of Americans agree on? Patterico’s Pontifications: Obama Implies Illegals Will Be Covered by His Health Care Plan FOX News: ABC, NBC Won’t Air Ad Critical of Obama’s Health Care Plan Pundit & [...]

    Pingback by Listen Up, Congress: American Majority (83%) Says ‘NO’ to Illegal Aliens Getting Free Gov’t Health Care « Frugal Café Blog Zone (a66042) — 9/8/2009 @ 5:01 pm

  150. Another fun fact filled shout fest here at Patterico….

    Geez, reading the comments gives me a headache and no Obama (who I am NOT a supporter of) did not directly or indirectly imply that healthcare was going to be free to illegals. Ed Morrissey is not the best vetted source of information. Using Ed is tenuous at best Eds a good guy but just not the depth. We need meat and potatos issues to defeatr healthcare – using inferences in number estimates is not so meaty.

    In fact I hope the whole healthcare thingy goes away – its bad for America.

    Comment by EricPWJohnson (999d2e) — 9/8/2009 @ 5:06 pm

  151. EricPW – Why were the democrats unwilling to put an enforcement mechanism in the bill in your opinion? If they claim they want it there for jobs, why not for insurance?

    Comment by daleyrocks (718861) — 9/8/2009 @ 5:11 pm

  152. Whether it is 100,000 or 10,000,000 is not really the point. The Left continues to use this 46M number, which undeniably contains millions of illegals. This is really not that tough to grasp, people.

    Comment by JD (e4e95a) — 9/8/2009 @ 5:22 pm

  153. JD, the 46 million number even contains millions of people who did have coverage through a government program but mistakenly told the census worker that they did not.

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 9/8/2009 @ 5:29 pm

  154. DaleyRocks

    Honestly – this bill is so faint with facts and large on sweeping measures its like smart 3rd graders designing a car. Sounds good, looks good, sucks.

    No one has any IDEA how this will affect the community

    What could work is serious tort reform.

    Reinforcing the FDA with stronger powers and giving the option for experimental procedures

    Tax incentives for the medical industry – you give tax breaks you will see companies like ExxonMobil and GM pouring money into the field

    Make pharm companies lawsuit free. Regulated by the FDA and highly competative this notion in the courts that drug companies make deliberately dangerous drugs is like saying airline mechanics let faulty planes fly – there just isnt that many pyschopaths left (after those in congress) to go around.

    How about making the health insurance industry a tax free one? (maybe not we could be trampled to death every morning by salesmen just trying to get our morning paper)

    Real real easy for Obama to get reelected and be a hero with these reforms (without a price tag) – just that this isnt reform its a reformation – a religous movement of liberal intrusion of our society (with apologies to my fellow lutherans)

    Comment by EricPWJohnson (999d2e) — 9/8/2009 @ 5:45 pm

  155. Eric PW – a religous movement of liberal intrusion of our society

    I disagree. Those are just the rubes necessary for the show of force. The real reason is the control of the apportionment of a very large section of the economy by a very small group of people. When the mob gives money to an ‘associate’, that ‘associate’ understands:

    1) The mob is in charge, and will stay that way.

    2) Some of that money needs to get to the ‘right’ people.

    This is just an extremely large heist. The crisis will continue afterward, because the system will not work, and the crisis is necessary to maintain control, and to maintain a crisis, the ‘religious movement’s’ rubes need something to be upset about.

    Comment by Apogee (e2dc9b) — 9/8/2009 @ 6:08 pm

  156. Apogee

    Thats what I said – sorry if I was not being clear

    Goosestepping 1/7th of the American economy into socialist labor camps is very very unamerican – but then again 53% voted “unamerican” in the last race….

    Comment by EricPWJohnson (999d2e) — 9/8/2009 @ 6:16 pm

  157. EricPWJohnson – I think that I’m not actually being clear. I don’t think that 53% voted ‘unamerican’ – I think that a large majority of Obama’s supporters voted for someone who was presented to them as a centrist bent on changing government for the better – which is what disturbs me about the ‘socialist’ comments. Many who describe themselves as ‘socialist leaning’ or even question the downsides of socialism are merely uneducated.

    Obama’s biggest problem is not recognition of a socialist bent, because as I said before many of his die hard supporters believe that Obama’s ultimate goal is ‘equality of the citizenry’ – which is what uninformed people assume is socialism. They are sold the endpoint, and told that the Obama administration will ‘handle’ things to bring that end about.

    This decent percentage of Obama’s support certainly did not sign up to have a select group of politically connected cronies game the system to keep themselves in power and make deals with the very corporate entities and lobbying groups that the ‘socialists’ believe to be a part of the problem. Yet, this is what has happened, and the recognition of that occurrence is Obama’s biggest problem, because it separates him from his supporters.

    Obama’s policies will lead in the exact opposite direction of ‘equality’. Labeling his policies as socialist only serves to legitimize his power grabs to large sections of the population that would be against him if they knew the real goals of his administration – mob style acquisition of budget allocation money in order to enrich a small cadre of ‘friendlies’.

    Socialism doesn’t work, and I think Obama knows it. My interpretation of his actions is that they are far more insidious than some hairbrained ideals of ‘equality’. He’s setting up budget allocations for his supporters – to guarantee his group staying in the game, even after a power shift – it actually makes things easier as they then have an ‘opposition’ to blame for their own failed policies.

    His followers won’t give up on ‘socialism’, and they’re definitely not a majority in this country. If Obama gives in to them completely, he’s screwed with the rest of Americans who know enough to discount that multi-failed utopian BS. That leaves him with only one option – continue on his actual course – the one that will lose him his ‘socialist’ support.

    As long as we don’t help him keep it.

    Comment by Apogee (e2dc9b) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:02 pm

  158. Ed Morrissey is not the best vetted source of information.

    For a while in 2004 and 2005, Ed was the best source of certain important information for Canadians, which subsequently led to Ed’s bringing down the whole Liberal government of Canada.

    Comment by Official Internet Data Office (086d17) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:05 pm

  159. OIDC

    Ummm no he wasnt at all. not even one bit. His blog was only successful since it was one of the very first well organized ones and since then he extended his limelight at Hotair.

    I agree with Ed on most things, he just seems to try to find too much fault with things that erode his overall credibility like in the Virginia Senate Race when astonishingly He amd Malkin went against who could have been someone that would have cleaned the electorial map up with Obama – all for alittle face time on Fox or whatever channel it was – since then they’ve had nothin to do with him

    Apogee,

    Labor Unions were founded by socialist, they live by the “peoples” mandate – yes a large portion of America is and has been socialist. Democrats and the Labor Unions are nothing but one and the same. The very progressive tax is another socialist power grab reminisant of Stalins collectivisation in the late 20′s and early 30′s – just without the gulags.

    Comment by EricPWJohnson (999d2e) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:14 pm

  160. OIDC and 4 years in blogging is equivalent of a century or two.

    And who gives a rats ass about Canadians – if I told you there was a country, sitting on more oil than all of the Middle East, more hardwoods than europe, more gold and diamonds than all of Africa, more precious metals than Asia – had accessible ports on both major oceans, had THE MOST EDUCATED workforce in the world and little corporate tax and no illegal immigrant problems

    When you heard about a country like that – the most oil, gold, diamonds, critical metals, trees, ad nausem

    And they are too lazy and stupid to embrace capitalism

    then I give you our Canadian brothers to the North

    Comment by EricPWJohnson (999d2e) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:20 pm

  161. EricPWJohnson – Labor Unions were founded by socialist, they live by the “peoples” mandate

    Yes, and their public image is down in recent polling.

    Also, the union workers often have quite a different view of their union organizations than what is quoted in the press by the union bosses. Union members don’t dare bring up grievances against union management in public.

    The Obama administration’s giveaways to unions have already hurt public opinion, and it’s not union bosses who will suffer from that poor association. Democrats and Union Bosses are nothing but one and the same.

    That’s an important difference.

    Comment by Apogee (e2dc9b) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:30 pm

  162. “Goosestepping 1/7th of the American economy into socialist labor camps is very very unamerican – but then again 53% voted “unamerican” in the last race….”

    Only in america could there be more un-americans than americans.

    Comment by imdw (017d51) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:37 pm

  163. “And they are too lazy and stupid to embrace capitalism”
    Well there go my 100 G’s in Encana (That’s NYSE: ECA to you)

    As an old friend of mine says: “The peasants in this country are the stupidest in the world!” And she’s from Eastern Europe so she knows from stupid peasants. My god what a country.
    “The MOST EDUCATED workforce in the world.”

    So maybe they’re on to something?
    Naaaaah…

    Comment by JW Democrat (213e20) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:51 pm

  164. So now it is just babbling. It is always disturbing to watch the trolls devolve right in front of your eyes.

    Comment by JD (1e912f) — 9/8/2009 @ 7:56 pm

  165. “WASHINGTON (AP) – A top senator is calling for fines of up to $3,800 on families who fail to get medical insurance after a health care overhaul goes into effect.”

    “The plan from Democratic Sen. Max Baucus of Montana would make health insurance mandatory, just like auto coverage. It would provide tax credits to help cover the cost for people making up to three times the federal poverty level. That’s about $66,000 for a family of four, and $32,000 for an individual.”

    “But those who still don’t sign up would face hefty fines, starting at $750 a year for individuals and $1,500 for families. The maximum penalty on individuals would be $950…”

    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9AJ8OBO0&show_article=1&catnum=-1

    The libby wibbies aren’t going to stop until EVERYONE is FORCED into accepting government provided health care.

    Not just the poor. Not just illegal aliens.

    Everyone.

    Comment by Dave Surls (ba0cc8) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:00 pm

  166. Not just the poor. Not just illegal aliens.

    Not the poor, and not illegal aliens.

    Those groups will be excused.

    It’s the same story – money taken from one group to support another, and it’s how the system works now.

    With one exception – right now the government doesn’t get to ‘handle’ and ‘allocate’ all that money.

    That’s what this is all about.

    Comment by Apogee (e2dc9b) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:06 pm

  167. This Vaucus character has been a problem for quite some time. Can Harry Reid stop with this ’60 votes to pass legislation’ crap?

    Comment by imdw (00bfab) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:11 pm

  168. Vaucus — unregretted typo.

    Comment by imdw (00bfab) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:13 pm

  169. Also, if the max fine for a year is $950, then one would assume that they are guessing coverage would be less than that for a year’s time, otherwise, why not just pay the fine and collect care when you need it? Are they really saying that you’ll be denied care if you don’t pay?

    Coverage for less than 79.00 a month? From the government?
    2007 Medicare costs were a minimum of 93.50/month – and that’s for Part B Medicare

    79.00/month X 300 million people is 23 Billion a year. Medicaid alone in 2007 was 431 Billion.

    Why would anyone not just pay the fine?

    Comment by Apogee (e2dc9b) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:22 pm

  170. “Also, if the max fine for a year is $950, then one would assume that they are guessing coverage would be less than that for a year’s time, otherwise, why not just pay the fine and collect care when you need it? Are they really saying that you’ll be denied care if you don’t pay?”

    My understanding is the baucus plan doesn’t include a public option. You pay the fine AND you’re uninsured. It’s just an insurance friendly mandate.

    Comment by imdw (77d409) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:25 pm

  171. Bad math – 284 Billion/year – still a lot less than just Medicare spending in ’07.

    Comment by Apogee (e2dc9b) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:31 pm

  172. You pay the fine AND you’re uninsured.

    Yes, but can you receive care if you’re uninsured, the way you can right now?

    Any details as to where these fines go?

    Maybe the same place as all that tobacco money.

    Comment by Apogee (e2dc9b) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:35 pm

  173. “Yes, but can you receive care if you’re uninsured, the way you can right now?”

    Like ER care or out of pocket? Sure. But you’ll get the bill on top of your fine. And it won’t be at a group rate.

    [note: fished from spam filter -- Stashiu]

    Comment by imdw (7f8076) — 9/8/2009 @ 8:45 pm

  174. EricPW – You still did not answer the question of why you thought the Democrats rejected immigration verification status amendments to the House bills so that illegal aliens would not be covered.

    Comment by daleyrocks (718861) — 9/8/2009 @ 9:05 pm

  175. “Also, if the max fine for a year is $950…”

    It might be at first…but, it won’t be after awhile. If a thousand dollar fine won’t do the trick they’ll make it $10,000 or jail time. Whatever it takes.

    And, if they get an “option” style socialized medicine plan through this time around…next time around it’ll be mandatory.

    “I happen to be a proponent of a single payer universal health care program.”–Barry O, 2003

    The libbies will never rest until everyone in this country is forced into a socialized, federally controlled health care system.

    Comment by Dave Surls (ba0cc8) — 9/8/2009 @ 9:36 pm

  176. DaleyRocks

    Have no clue – but if you are here in America you are a resident – if you speak democrat – if you speak republican there are laws that govern our existence…..

    Comment by EricPWJohnson (999d2e) — 9/8/2009 @ 9:48 pm

  177. I remember hearing John Kerry ridiculing “those people who don’t want government healthcare” as asking rhetorically, “what do they think Medicaid and Medicare is?”

    Just ruminate on that. Kerry wants us to think about Medicaid and Medicare, both of which are going insolvent, and both of which are now costing taxpayers far more than they were projected to cost. And we can look at other statist projects, like, I don’t know, maybe Social Security? That pyramid-scheme program that has cost geometrically more than forecast and is going insolvent? Or maybe FM2? That corrupt machine that fed hundreds of millions of dollars into Democrat powerhouses’ pockets and went belly-up, rescued with hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars? Or USPS, as Obama has touted, which is the model of fiscal irresponsibility and is both curtailing services and increasing costs to those curtailed services?

    And let’s not forget about the Oregon-run “free” healthcare plan, which sends a letter to someone saying “we cannot cover your cancer treatment but we can cover your assisted suicide.”

    Comment by John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/8/2009 @ 9:51 pm

  178. “what do they think Medicaid and Medicare is?”

    I think they’re two camel noses poking under the edge of the tent.

    Comment by Dave Surls (ba0cc8) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:02 pm

  179. he’s promising the illegals that they will be insured under his plan.

    In effect, they already are, at least here in Los Angeles County.

    You go to almost any emergency room on any given night and a good number of those in the waiting room will be not just Latino, but mainly Spanish-speaking-only Latinos. Yea, some of them may have gone through legal, proper channels to be where they are. But studies through the years indicate that a high percentage of such people are, in fact, “undocumented” residents.

    Regardless, a lot of the folks flooding local hospitals have been skipping out on paying their bills — or paying anything, period — which is a major reason quite a few hospitals in southern California have shut or are shutting down their emergency rooms.

    Comment by Mark (411533) — 9/8/2009 @ 10:06 pm

  180. Thanks Doc for your input. But from your pasted info, is it up to the executive to not enforce this limitation or the congress? Is this issue still not in dispute? Here is a link that gives more perspective to the issue.
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/27/health.care.immigrants/

    The issue wouldn’t still be in dispute if the democrats had voted for the amendment making it clear that illegals would not be covered. voting against such clarity demonstrates, at least to reasonable minds, what the intention of the democrats is – i.e., to cover illegal immigrants. Otherwise, there would be no reason to vote against an amendment that does what they alleged already plan for the bill to do – not cover illegal immigrants. It is incredibly disengenous and goes against common sense to claim anything else.

    Why all the spin? Either the bill is intended to cover or not cover illegal immigrants. If it is intended to not cover the illegals, then language making that crystal clear should not be at all objectionable – and the President and Dems could simply end this objection by including such language. The fact that they don’t and won’t pretty clearly demonstrates that the intention of the bill is to cover the illegals. There is no other rational way to read it.

    Comment by Monkeytoe (e66874) — 9/9/2009 @ 6:30 am

  181. [...] August Pundit & Pundette: What do 83% of Americans agree on? Patterico’s Pontifications: Obama Implies Illegals Will Be Covered by His Health Care Plan FOX News: ABC, NBC Won’t Air Ad Critical of Obama’s Health Care Plan Pundit & [...]

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  182. [...] Video: Demint to Obama – Stop Generalizing and Defend Your Bill Patterico’s Pontifications: Obama Implies Illegals Will Be Covered by His Health Care Plan GayPatriot: Why President Should Ditch Obamacare, Focus on Economy FOX News: ABC, NBC Won’t [...]

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  183. [...] serves at least two purposes.  First, it helps the Democrats claim that ObamaCare will not cover millions of illegal immigrants.  House Democrats have rejected every attempt to require that people should be required to prove [...]

    Pingback by Patterico’s Pontifications » ObamaCare already slashes number of uninsured! (e4ab32) — 9/9/2009 @ 9:36 pm

  184. [...] Video: Demint to Obama – Stop Generalizing and Defend Your Bill Patterico’s Pontifications: Obama Implies Illegals Will Be Covered by His Health Care Plan GayPatriot: Why President Should Ditch Obamacare, Focus on Economy William Tucker, The American [...]

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  186. [...] Video: Demint to Obama – Stop Generalizing and Defend Your Bill Patterico’s Pontifications: Obama Implies Illegals Will Be Covered by His Health Care Plan GayPatriot: Why President Should Ditch Obamacare, Focus on Economy William Tucker, The American [...]

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  187. Regardless, a lot of the folks flooding local hospitals have been skipping out on paying their bills — or paying anything, period — which is a major reason quite a few hospitals in southern California have shut or are shutting down their emergency rooms.

    Maybe ICE should have offices across the street from hospitals.

    And let’s not forget about the Oregon-run “free” healthcare plan, which sends a letter to someone saying “we cannot cover your cancer treatment but we can cover your assisted suicide.”

    It is cheaper.

    All it requires is a handgun and a few rounds of ammunition.

    Comment by Michael Ejercito (833607) — 9/10/2009 @ 9:54 am

  188. OIDC and 4 years in blogging is equivalent of a century or two.

    And who gives a rats ass about Canadians – if I told you there was a country, sitting on more oil than all of the Middle East, more hardwoods than europe, more gold and diamonds than all of Africa, more precious metals than Asia – had accessible ports on both major oceans, had THE MOST EDUCATED workforce in the world and little corporate tax and no illegal immigrant problems

    When you heard about a country like that – the most oil, gold, diamonds, critical metals, trees, ad nausem

    And they are too lazy and stupid to embrace capitalism

    then I give you our Canadian brothers to the North

    Canadians have a lot in common with Russians (except for that port thing).

    Comment by Michael Ejercito (833607) — 9/10/2009 @ 9:56 am

  189. [...] will cover illegals. Democrats have fought every enforcement mechanism and Obama himself has implied it would happen. He even altered the number of uninsured he claims are present in the country, so that people [...]

    Pingback by Patterico’s Pontifications » Joe Wilson Just Yelled Out the Truth (e4ab32) — 9/11/2009 @ 7:05 am

  190. [...] will cover illegals. Democrats have fought every enforcement mechanism and Obama himself has implied it would happen. He even altered the number of uninsured he claims are present in the country, so that people [...]

    Pingback by Common Sense Political Thought » Blog Archive » You lie! Who lies? (73d96f) — 9/11/2009 @ 11:16 am

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