Patterico's Pontifications

8/27/2009

State Department Recommends Cutting Aid to Honduras

Filed under: International,Obama — DRJ @ 5:34 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

U.S. State Department staff have recommended the termination of all aid to Honduras, a move that would formalize a de facto end to aid put in place after the ouster of former President Manuel Zelaya:

“Washington has already suspended about $18 million aid to Honduras following the June 28 coup and this would be formally cut if the determination is made because of a U.S. law barring aid “to the government of any country whose duly elected head of government is deposed by military coup or decree.”

The official said that $215 million in grant funding from the U.S. Millennium Challenge Corporation to Honduras would also have to end should Clinton make the determination that a military coup took place.

About $76 million of that money has already been disbursed and a second U.S. official said this implied that the remaining roughly $139 million could not be given to Honduras should the determination be made.”

The decision is up to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. I hope she refuses to approve this recommendation but I doubt it.

American presidents have historically done everything they can to liberate counties and support democracies. So far, the Obama Administration has done the opposite.

— DRJ

120 Responses to “State Department Recommends Cutting Aid to Honduras”

  1. I’m surprised they are being this adamant about something so wrong without the motivation of screwing Bush.

    MayBee (3d1a9c)

  2. The legislature and Supreme Court of Honduras refused to let Zelaya use unconstitutional methods to take over the government, and asked the military to carry out the logistics of ridding the country of him, safely, no less.

    And the Obama administration and the US media complain that the unconstitutional election using the ballots and resources of Chavez was interfered with. They like what Chavez did in Venezuela so much they were eager to see the encore in Honduras.

    Refusing to support Honduras’ stand to maintain constitutional integrity should alone be enough reason to look for charges to impeach Pres. Obama. Of course, as one who thinks the constitution of our country is defective and deficient, why would he want to protect the constitutional integrity of another country.

    A despicable response.

    MD in Philly (9fa3fb)

  3. i think there’s a simple solution to this problem, and one that will allow us to screw Ear Leader at the same time:

    form a 501c3 organization to raise funds from tax deductible donations from freedom loving and supporting American tax payers, thereby further reducing Ear Leaders tax revenue, squeezing his dumb ass even more.

    find a legitimate recipient in Honduras to receive the funds, making up the shortfall. i doubt we could donate straight to the government, but there’s got to be a way to get the funds down there to support a program the government usually funds, thereby freeing up that much in the budget to cover the shortfall caused by the hijos de putas in the State Dept.

    there’s enough lawyers on this blog that one of you should be able to flesh out the details.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  4. You guys set it up, make sure it is legit and I will donate to it.

    Zelsdorf Ragshaft III (8f4c63)

  5. So far, the Obama Administration has done the opposite.

    So the $83.4 billion Obama requested for Iraq and Afghanistan a few months back means what?

    Iraq isn’t a Democracy?

    DRJ, you are the second poster here since yesterday to make that claim (Jack said Israel is the only Democracy in the Middle East).

    Sunburn (5d93e3)

  6. One wonders what kind of whacky alternative reality in Honduras drives Sunburn’s opinions.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  7. Sunburn,

    Obama would never let politics interfere with democracy, would he?

    “In a written statement issued in early afternoon, Obama said that after 1,518 days, “the Iraq war rages on, with no sign of a resolution.”

    The Illinois senator said he would vote for a cutoff in war funding as well as a second bill setting standards for the Iraqi government “not because I believe either is the best answer, but because I want to send a strong statement to the Iraqi government, the president and my Republican colleagues that it’s long past time to change course.”

    That was Obama in May 2007, and I have no doubt he would do it again if he thought he could get away with it.

    DRJ (3f5471)

  8. I hadn’t realized how blatantly pro-socialist the Soros lackeys at Human Rights Watch were being about screwing Honduras. Just openly saying screw your democracy and let the dirty socialist Chavez sycophant you kicked out run things.

    This is Change but I think mostly it’s a measure of how weak Barack Obama is, the worthless trash he lets ride his train. HRW is the SEIU is the UAW is ACORN is name your ignorant street trash.

    It’s very shameful what our little country has come to be seen as standing for. Very very shameful. People died for this little country and Barack Obama is pissing on their graves every day, which is something we will have to reflect on at more length in a couple so weeks I guess.

    Depressing.

    happyfeet (6b707a)

  9. That’s OK. The Democrats of the next generation will go and apologize for this gross interference. Everyone will feel much better then.

    Amphipolis (8cd9a3)

  10. That was Obama in May 2007, and I have no doubt he would do it again if he thought he could get away with it.

    DRJ,

    Two simple questions for you:

    Is Iraq in the Middle east?

    Is it a Democracy?

    I won’t pretend to try to understand why you think Obama isn’t supporting Afghanistan.

    He sent our troops there to help the Taliban, maybe?

    Sunburn (5d93e3)

  11. I won’t pretend to try to understand why you think Obama isn’t supporting Afghanistan.

    Good, you would make a hash of trying to convince us you understand anything.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  12. Of course, I should have guessed that Joos were involved. …

    SPQR (26be8b)

  13. He sent our troops to Afghanistan as a way of rationalizing cuts in Iraq without looking like the dirty socialist Soros toady coward he is. His dirty socialist media like his Associated Press and his NPR have already gotten the cue to start ginning up dissatisfaction with Afghanistan. Some day soon poor pitiful weak Barack Obama will have no choice but to bow to Congressional pressure and reevaluate our interests there.

    He’s so disgusting.

    happyfeet (6b707a)

  14. American presidents have historically done everything they can to liberate counties and support democracies.

    Ageless platitudes aren’t well-suited to this landscape.

    http://newsok.com/rights-commission-finds-abuses-in-honduras/article/feed/69168

    After a five-day visit to Honduras, the Inter-American Human Rights Commission just released a preliminary report. IHRC President Luz Mejía, noted “the existence of a pattern of disproportionate use of force, arbitrary detentions and the control of information to limit the political participation of a sector of the public.”

    Excessive force by police is likely responsible for four fatalities. While thuggery has been an historical standard in Latin American power struggles, media intimidation and civil turmoil are corrosive deadweights this close to the November national elections.

    steve (dba6e2)

  15. oh. It says the the Inter-American Human Rights Commission “is a branch of the Organization of American States,” which I guess means it’s made of people who lurve to suckle on Fidel Castro’s scrotum almost as much as Hugo Chavez does.

    happyfeet (6b707a)

  16. Obama will act according to the wishes of his wannabe allies, Castro and Chavez.

    Techie (482700)

  17. I think I’m losing patience with the 52ers.
    Effing bastards.

    Richard Aubrey (ddaff4)

  18. Wait. You mean no US gov’t. aid “to the government of any country whose duly elected head of government is deposed by military coup or decree.”

    Maybe we should have encouraged the Dems to go ahead and impeach Bush when they wanted to. We could have ended the entire welfare and entitlement scheme in a single stroke. We’d have to cut off aid to ourselves!

    Gesundheit (254807)

  19. Or maybe that means a “military coup or [military] decree.” Because surely a decree of the nation’s Supreme Court would count, wouldn’t it?

    Then again, the Dems sometimes like Supreme Courts ruling on candidacies and sometimes not.

    Gesundheit (254807)

  20. The Obama Administration is about to inflict suffering and misery on the People of an economically poor country, all because that country followed its own democratic Laws, protected its own Constitution, and prevented a likely dictatorship from occurring.

    Rather than support the Rule of Law and applaud the Democratic Institutions within Honduras (the Supreme Court and Legislature), President Obama has chosen to align himself with pro-dictatorial forces (Zelaya, Chavez and Castro) and punish the nation of Honduras.

    (Amazingly, there are those ignorant enough to attempt to draw comparisons with middle-eastern nations, each engaged in different types of wars; with a bloodless legal procedure in Latin America. Such a comparison does not make any logical sense whatsoever, and has nothing to do with the sad course-of-action the Obama Administration is about to pursue toward Honduras; but it does serve to demonstrate the intellectual gulf between current Obama adherents and the rest of citizenry of the United States. )

    For the Obama Administration, the wheels are falling-off and the nation is beginning to recognize it. Even here, at this website, there are no intellectually-driven arguments from the left.

    Just crumbs from old and disproven arguments.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  21. This is what happens when a tiny little democracy does not go along with what Teh One. Those cheeky little Hondurans are gonna find out that standing up for yourself will just get the wrath of Barcky and the Left raining down on them until they submit.

    JD (1206f2)

  22. steve – because they have some bad people in their country, we should not stand up for democracy, and just let the dirty little wannabe socialist dictator just take over?

    JD (1206f2)

  23. You guys don’t get it. Obama has no real interest in democracy or freedom. He’s about remaking the world in the socialist image, and Chavez, Castro, Ortega and so forth are his HEROES and always have been.

    His model is Putin, who is doing in Russia what Obama wants to do here: central control of every aspect of life by an all-powerful state.

    Democracy is a roadblock and whether it is Iran, Honduras or Massachusetts, Obama’s interests and democracy are generally opposed.

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  24. For the Obama Administration, the wheels are falling-off and the nation is beginning to recognize it.

    Haha, if wishes were horses, the Republicans would ride, right?

    Maybe Honduras is one of them phony Democracies like Turkey, Lebanon and Iraq?

    Sunburn (5d93e3)

  25. Sunburn, do you have a coherent argument in favor of the policy? You’ve not shown one yet.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  26. Sunshine – Explain to us, in your words, why this is a good policy.

    JD (1206f2)

  27. Let’s not pretend it’s all for the children people. It’s about opposing Chavez and certifying he has one less cocky disciple.

    If you think a right wing hardliner will restore comprehensive human rights or end the media intimidation Micheletti is accused of – you’re leading with your ideological chin.

    steve (dba6e2)

  28. Comment by Sunburn — 8/27/2009 @ 7:29 pm

    Maybe Honduras is one of them phony Democracies like Turkey, Lebanon and Iraq?

    No.

    Haha, if wishes were horses, the Republicans would ride, right?

    For Sunburn: wishes.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  29. steve, your snark avoids the issue. Not to mention, you imply that Zelaya was replaced by a “right winger” when in fact his replacement was from his own party.

    Is there ever a honest response from Obama cultists defending Obama’s policy? Or must it always be with a material misrepresentation of fact?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  30. Funny, isn’t it? We don’t force the trolls to show up with misrepresentations … and yet, they always do.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  31. Oops, fix for first link.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  32. Obama is a complete scumbag for his reaction to Honduras, especially contra Iran with its “elected leader” and his refusal to “bear witness” to the show trials.

    And what is it with the trolls on this site?

    Andy (a2fdce)

  33. For Sunburn: wishes.

    Hahaha.

    Should Obama step down like your guy did when he fell under 20% approval, pons?

    It’s almost sad to see you guys clinging to Gallup numbers just like the pathetic Daily Kossers used to.

    Almost.

    Besides, I think we all know Obama will leave office 7+ years from now with an approval rating in the 60s, just like Bill Clinton did.

    Sunburn (5d93e3)

  34. Sunburn and steve are both sycophant Obama supporters.

    They’ll support him to the end. Their end, that is, as they certainly don’t have the mental acuity to convert their ‘allegiance’ into profit if their ‘side’ gets what it wants. That’s because there can’t be enough to go around and keep alive a permanent ‘crisis’.

    Obama’s not a socialist, he’s a thief, just like Castro, Chavez, Puten and the rest of his heroes.

    Leftist thought – socialism, collectivism, etc. – has been identified by the scammers on our little ball of dust as the perfect route to steal almost everything, because it sells the lie over and over that a small group of people can be in charge of everything. All you need to pull it off is an army of useful idiots – like Sunburn and steve – who never really pick up on the grift, even when it’s staring them in the face, and they’re failing to profit from it. Because, of course, profit is a dirty word. Just ask any ‘socialist’, if you can get a word in before the limo passes through the gates and the security men tell you to go fuck yourself.

    I mean, unemployment at 16% by some estimates, loans and real estate stagnant, GDP and the economy shrinking – and all because a huge lack of confidence in a government that is essentially made up completely by Democrats.

    And still the dullards defend Obama.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  35. Besides, I think we all know Obama will leave office 7+ years from now with an approval rating in the 60s, just like Bill Clinton did.

    Right–after nuking Israel and Honduras, no doubt. You’re quite the budding Nostrodamus, Sundown.

    M. Scott Eiland (5ccff0)

  36. They are working hard to be the worst administration in history. So far they are succeeding beyond their wildest dreams.

    ray (3c46ca)

  37. American presidents have historically done everything they can to liberate counties and support democracies. So far, the Obama Administration has done the opposite.

    As did the Clinton Administration, which re-installed Aristide as dictator of Haiti. At least Republican Presidents only pal around with U.S.-friendly dictators.

    Xrlq (62cad4)

  38. It would be no less disgusting if an ultra-rightist had attempted the same end-run as Zelayo has done to Honduras, and then gotten hugs and kisses from a conservative White House and, in turn, a State Department influenced by conservatives in general.

    But I will admit to being that much more disgusted because, yes, I already do have a very, very low regard of the dope in the White House and all the phony-ass liberals throughout the Capitol.

    They’re disgusting, and I’m too disgusted for words.

    Mark (411533)

  39. suburn and steve still have not defended Obama’s policy on Honduras. How about it fellows? Why is it the right thing to do?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  40. Not to mention, you imply that Zelaya was replaced by a “right winger” when in fact his replacement was from his own party.

    I referenced the pending election, and Micheletti isn’t running.

    A convulsed electorate could replace him with a right wing hardliner. Or another Chavez puppet. Neither, I gather, would necessarily improve the lot of Hondurans.

    The reformist who had been considered “a sure bet” to defeat Zelaya, Elvin Santos, is now trailing in the race…dodging insults, eggs and bags of water.

    steve (dba6e2)

  41. Why is it the right thing to do?

    Why not?

    The right just picks the opposite side Obama does without giving any thought to their decisions anyways.

    Sunburn (5d93e3)

  42. So sunburst approves of shitting on democracies because they do not agree with Barcky, and steve wants to talk about everything except the policy in question.

    Gotcha

    JD (5adcdb)

  43. “Why not?”

    Fantastic argument sunburn! Your grasp of international relations is astounding.

    steve – All you do is recite the current status of the election, not whether or not it was the right thing to do.

    Better Obamatards please!

    daleyrocks (718861)

  44. Sunburst @ #41 pretty much sums up the ruling style of the Leftists.

    JD (5adcdb)

  45. From the 8:36 link:

    …pelted with insults, eggs and bags of water by Zelaya supporters who think that he helped plot Zelaya’s forced exile nearly two months ago.

    No evidence has emerged to substantiate claims that Santos supported the coup. But his nuanced position on Zelaya’s ouster and their rivalry within the Liberal Party — Santos served as Zelaya’s vice president before breaking with him when he resigned last year to run for president — have made him a ready target.

    How many of these ‘supporters’ do you bet have a direct link to Chavez? Zelaya certainly did. Zelaya violated the constitution in search of a permanent position, a la Chavez, and we know this because Chavez was assisting him.

    Zelaya’s constitutional violations and subsequent self-negation directly affects the incomes of his supporters.

    Zelays’s supporters wanted to ride his dictatorial coat to increased power and influence. Anyone taking their actions as an indication of the legitimacy of any candidate for the Presidency of Honduras is an idiot.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  46. steve:

    The reformist who had been considered “a sure bet” to defeat Zelaya, Elvin Santos, is now trailing in the race…dodging insults, eggs and bags of water.

    Under the Honduran constitution, Zelaya was not eligible to run for reelection. Santos was not running against him any more than Barack Obama was really running against George W. Bush.

    Note: Live Preview is not my friend. There may be a zombie infection.

    GaryC (c1edfb)

  47. steve and sunburn just have patellar anti-conservative or pro-Obama (you decide) reflexes at work here. The subject doesn’t matter as demonstrated by their lack of knowledge and inability to defend a position. Pure reflex oppositional disorder.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  48. So sunburst approves of shitting on democracies because they do not agree with Barcky

    How is withholding American taxpayer money from a gang that just pulled off a coup “shitting on democracies?”

    Sunburn (a75d6d)

  49. #39 — Comment by daleyrocks — 8/27/2009 @ 8:25 pm

    sunburn and steve still have not defended Obama’s policy on Honduras. How about it fellows? Why is it the right thing to do?

    They can’t, daleyrocks. Sunburn is incapable and steve doesn’t dare.

    (from Honduras: A Country Study) The constitution may be amended by the National Congress after a two-thirds vote of all its members in two consecutive regular annual sessions. However, several constitutional provisions may not be amended. These consist of the amendment process itself, as well as provisions covering the form of government, national territory, and several articles covering the presidency, including term of office and prohibition from reelection.

    (from the Wall Street Journal) [Under Zelya,]Honduras joined Mr. Chávez’s trade pact, received cut-rate oil from Venezuela, and embarked on an attempt to use referendums to rewrite the constitution that critics say would have let Mr. Zelaya extend his term.

    The vote was declared illegal by Honduras’s Supreme Court, but the president [Zelya] vowed to press on. Last Sunday, the day the referendum was set to take place, soldiers stormed the presidential residence and seized the leader. Congress later swore in Mr. Micheletti, the president of Congress.

    What is steve gong to argue?
    *that the supreme court was wrong.
    *The congress was wrong.
    *The constitution does not explicitly prohibit reelections.
    *The Hondurans don’t know what they are doing, Obama knows better.
    *Second- terms and referendums on second-terms should be allowed (real bad because in Latin America, multiple terms leads to dictatorships — that is why the constitution is so adamant about this provision not being modified, not to mention the people and their democratic institutions).

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  50. The vote was declared illegal by Honduras’s Supreme Court

    So when it comes to foreign countries, the American right favors rule by judicial fiat?

    That would seem to run counter to their stated principles.

    Sunburn (a75d6d)

  51. Sunburn,

    In the U.S., law is administered by courts and this is a blog that has several lawyers who post and comment here. Setting aside your inflammatory rhetoric (“rule by judicial fiat“), why would you believe we would object to a country that adheres to the rule of law?

    DRJ (3f5471)

  52. “How is withholding American taxpayer money from a gang that just pulled off a coup “shitting on democracies?””

    sunburn – If you actually follow the facts and the Constitution of Honduras, why does what happened meet the definition of a coup? Please enlighten everybody.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  53. I have to admit I was one of those people conned into believing “just another coup” took place in Latin America. I believed the ousted President of Honduras should still be President until I read more of this info.

    Nobody, I mean nobody, can usurp a nation’s constitution. And if someone tries to do so, that person is a despicable tyrant. And anyone (with power) who supports that person is also a despicable tyrant.

    And, yes, that means for you folks in Rio Linda I believe BO (Body Odor) is a despicable tyrant.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  54. […] course, the usual suspects are supporting dictatorship over democracy in Latin America. Republicans are claiming that Zelaya […]

    State Dept: Cut Aid to Honduras « American Commie (d9a4c0)

  55. #50 — Comment by Sunburn — 8/27/2009 @ 9:56 pm

    …judicial fiat? !! LOL !!

    You forgot some folks though, like the congress, Joint Chiefs of Staff (all of them), Sec of Def, Administrative Law Tribunal, Attorney General… So it’s not so much a judicial fiat, but a judicial/congressional/military/governmental/constitutional fiat.

    (from the Wall Street Journal): The Supreme Court ruled his referendum unconstitutional, and it instructed the military not to carry out the logistics of the vote as it normally would do.

    The top military commander, Gen. Romeo Vásquez Velásquez, told the president that he would have to comply. Mr. Zelaya promptly fired him. The Supreme Court ordered him reinstated. Mr. Zelaya refused.

    The attorney general had already made clear that the referendum was illegal, and he further announced that he would prosecute anyone involved in carrying it out. Yesterday, Mr. Zelaya was arrested by the military and is now in exile in Costa Rica.

    (from CNN): The Hondurans Supreme Court had ruled the referendum illegal, and Congress and the top military brass agreed, but Zelaya remained steadfast.

    (from the Huffington Post, by Lanny Davis): On May 11, the Honduran Attorney General issued a press release stating that Mr. Zelaya’s attempt to hold a referendum in support of a new Constitution was illegal.

    * On May 27, the Honduran Administrative Law Tribunal ruled that the referendum violated the Constitution and ordered suspension of all acts in support of the referendum.

    * One May 29, the Honduran Administrative Law Tribunal clarified its May 27 ruling, explaining that any acts that would lead to any vote or poll similar to the referendum would violate the Constitution. The Tribunal then specifically ordered Mr. Zelaya to abide by its ruling.

    * On June 25, the Honduran Supreme Court unanimously ruled that Mr. Zelaya violated the law when he fired the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff for refusing to provide logistical support for the illegal referendum. The Chairman had cited to the multiple court decisions ruling the referendum illegal and told Mr. Zelaya that he would not order the military to violate the court orders.

    * On June 9, the Appellate Court of the Administrative Law Tribunal ruled that Mr. Zelaya’s actions violated the Constitution.

    * On June 25, the Honduran Supreme Electoral Tribunal declared that the referendum violated the Constitution and ordered that the ballots and polling materials for the referendum be confiscated and held on an air force base. Mr. Zelaya later lead a large group of supporters who forced their way into the base to seize the ballots.

    * On June 25, the Honduran Attorney General filed a criminal complaint against Mr. Zelaya for crimes against the form of government, treason, abuse of authority and usurpation of power with the Honduran Supreme Court.

    Oh, btw, here is your side:

    (from the aforementioned WSJ): Mrs. Clinton has piled on as well. Yesterday she accused Honduras of violating “the precepts of the Interamerican Democratic Charter” and said it “should be condemned by all.” Fidel Castro did just that. Mr. Chávez pledged to overthrow the new government.

    Castro, Chavez and Obama are doing what they can to support Zelaya. Of course if that doesn’t work we could always nuke ’em, eh Sunburn.

    Keep up the good work Sunburn!

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  56. #48

    How is withholding American taxpayer money from a gang that just pulled off a coup “shitting on democracies?”

    The traditional Marxist line. Black is White.

    For those of you trying to play along at home, a coup attempt by the President was averted by the Supreme Court, the military, and the legislature of Honduras.

    But thank you for playing.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  57. There is a break in this story, with Micheletti offering a comprehensive solution.

    Under the new proposal:

    • Both Mr. Micheletti and Mr. Zelaya would resign.

    • The next in line under the constitution would become interim president.

    • New elections would be scheduled and monitored by independent foreign observers.

    • Mr. Zelaya may return as a private citizen.

    • Mr. Micheletti will support a decision by the Honduran congress to grant “political amnesty [not involving common crimes] to all parties relating to events of June 28.”

    This is going to be hard for Obama and Clinton to ignore, not that they won’t.

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  58. If Richard Nixon had been impeached and convicted, and had refused to leave office (backed by the executive branch), and the Supreme Court had ruled him “no longer president” … would it have been a “coup” if a company of Marines physically removed him from the White House and put him on a plane?

    Because in a nutshell that’s what happened in Honduras (except they use the Supreme Court to remove Presidents instead of impeachment).

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  59. EW1 – How very racist of you, pointing out the actual facts. Threads like this are useful in that twatwaffles like sunshine cannot help but let their inner totalitarian shine right through, letting the proverbial mask slip.

    Kevin – Barcky is going to punish punish punish them for not submitting, immediately. If he does not, the next one might not submit immediately.

    JD (f303d4)

  60. Sunburn, judicial fiat? Once again, you demonstrate your complete ignorance of conservative thought. Conservatives do not believe that a court of competent jurisdiction interpreting a nation’s constitution based on its clear text is usurping anything.

    Is there any chance that you will ever pay attention to the actual facts of a controversy? Is there any chance that you will ever learn at the least the broad outline of the ideology of those you disagree with? Rather than substituting your fantasy inventions for both?

    I suspect I already know the answers.

    SPQR (5811e9)

  61. You suspect?!

    JD (24e83b)

  62. What, “goodness” isn’t an ideology?

    Kevin Murphy (805c5b)

  63. Well, sure, JD. I can only suspect that I know the answer.

    After all, Sunburn might surprise me and suddenly coherently discuss the issue.

    Then again, he may suggest that Obama will use nuclear weapons against Honduras too …

    SPQR (26be8b)

  64. A convulsed electorate could replace him with a right wing hardliner

    Typical lefty girlish use of extreme emotionalism in order to advance a false line of argument. Projection also duly noted – who on earth has claimed that the electorate is “convulsed?” Hilarious. Either stick to the facts or give it up – Phil Donohue retired a long time ago.

    Dmac (e6d1c2)

  65. SPQR – are there Jooos in Honduras, too? Uh, oh – bombs away from Sunbeyootch.

    Dmac (e6d1c2)

  66. I think it is sad that Michelleti has been forced to offer such a “solution”. It gives Zelaya far too much credibility and respectability. Hopefully it will be refused by Zelaya but give enough wiggle room for Clinton and Obama to backtrack.

    MD in Philly (9fa3fb)

  67. The saddest thing about all this is that bananas are a fruit you cannot stock up on before prices go up.

    nk (b17d90)

  68. Not to be too hard-hearted about it, but if some practically pantless refugees from the English-Scottish border could realize the ideal of a Constitutional Republic, why can’t those sons of the Conquistadores?

    nk (b17d90)

  69. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/08/world/americas/08joya.html?_r=2

    “The name Billy Joya reverberated much more than Micheletti,” Mr. Joya protested, perhaps a little too strenuously, referring to the head of the de facto government, Roberto Micheletti, installed by the military. “Instantly, my image was everywhere.”

    Mr. Joya’s conflicting images — a vilified figure who portrays himself as a victim — are as hard to reconcile as his life story. Human rights groups consider him one of the most ruthless former operatives of an American-backed military unit, known as Battalion 316, responsible for kidnapping, torturing and murdering hundreds of people suspected of being leftists during the 1980s.

    JW Democrat (fcc189)

  70. who on earth has claimed that the electorate is “convulsed?”

    Former defense minister Edmundo Orellana, who predicted that “this might be the most violent election in the history of the country.”

    Not to mention the threatened withdrawal of candidates:

    Zelaya supporters have called for a boycott of the vote, and one of the four presidential candidates, independent Carlos Reyes, has said he will withdraw if constitutional order is not restored.

    The leftist candidate, Cesar Ham, may also withdraw.

    steve (dba6e2)

  71. And we all know how unbiased and objective the NYT is, don’t we? Try harder next time. BTW, where were the “human rights groups” when innocent Iranians were being hauled off to jail out of their homes and summarily tortured the past few months? We await your detailed response with baited breath.

    Dmac (e6d1c2)

  72. Former defense minister Edmundo Orellana,

    Who was of course allied to Zelaya, and still supports his return to power. One person’s opinion you gave, and it’s quite ridiculous – as I just said to another commenter, try harder next time.

    Dmac (e6d1c2)

  73. Odd that President Obama policy is effectively centered on trying to destabilize the democratic institutions of Honduras (Supreme Court, Appellate Court of the Administrative Law Tribunal, Administrative Law Tribunal, Supreme Electoral Tribunal, Congress, Attorney General, Joint Chiefs of Staff, etc) and, in conjunction with Castro and Chavez, support Zelaya’s chance for a dictatorship.

    Still, no effective rebuttal of the facts and no coherent reason why. Interesting, that.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  74. #71 ” where were the “human rights groups” when innocent Iranians were being hauled off to jail out of their homes and summarily tortured the past few months? ”

    http://www.hrw.org/middle-eastn-africa/iran
    http://www.amnestyusa.org/all-countries/iran/page.do?id=1011172

    And there’s plenty more where those came from.
    You don’t follow the issue, so don’t pretend you do.

    JW Democrat (1e4a3b)

  75. Two of the four presidential candidates threatening late withdrawal would indicate the electoral process is undermined. To say nothing of the potential political vacuum created by the interim leader’s offer to resign while amnesty appeals for protesters are made.

    It’s obvious that Zelaya being hustled out of the country in his pajamas six months before November is not a step forward toward greater political maturity.

    Good they deposed him; bad he wasn’t arrested and put on trial.

    steve (dba6e2)

  76. #69 — Comment by JW Democrat — 8/28/2009 @ 3:13 pm

    JW, what are you arguing against?

    That the Honduran Constitution has an unreasonable clause?
    That the Honduran Administrative Law Tribunal was wrong?
    That the Honduran Appellate Court of the Administrative Law Tribunal was wrong?
    That the Honduran Supreme Electoral Tribunal was wrong?
    That the Honduran Supreme Court was wrong?
    That the Honduran Attorney General was wrong?
    That the Honduran Congress was wrong?
    That the Honduran Joint Chief of Staff should have been fired for not carrying out an unlawful order?
    That the Honduran Joint Chief of Air Force should not have resigned and instead carry-out an unlawful order?
    That the Honduran Joint Chief of Navy should not have resigned and instead carry-out an unlawful order?
    That the Honduran Joint Chief of Army should not have resigned and instead carry-out an unlawful order?
    That Honduras should not be allowed to insist on rule-of-law?
    That Honduras should not be allowed to govern itself without US approval?
    That Zelaya should be above Honduras Law?
    That Zelaya was the wronged party because (?) ?
    That democracy is beyond the capability of Hondurans?

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  77. #70 — Comment by steve — 8/28/2009 @ 3:24 pm

    Good they deposed him; bad he wasn’t arrested and put on trial.

    Zelaya was arrested then escorted out of the country.

    In any event steve, do you support President Obama’s policy toward Honduras? Just curious.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  78. Pons, The law is the law, right? There was no trial, he was arrested and thrown out of the country illegally.
    Expulsion as opposed to imprisonment (after conviction) is also unconstitutional.

    You may not like Zelaya, but it’s not like there are simply white hats and black hats. The country is a mess.

    JW Democrat (e7f8ca)

  79. So steve and JW support Barcky trying to prop up a wannabe socialist dictator. F*ck Honduras. F*ck their illegal Supreme Court. F*ck their thieving Legislature. F*ck their illegitimate Constitution. Bring on the Socialist dictator !!!!!!! YYYYYEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHH !!!!!

    JD (959071)

  80. I find it asinine that those who have demonstrated no respect for constitutional authority nit-pick about the finer points of dealing with a ruler who was stopped in the midst of betraying his country.

    From what has been previously stated, it appears those in legitimate power in Honduras decided to safely remove him from the country to spare unnecessary bloodshed of their citizens. The likes of Zelaya and Chavez and the Castros don’t give a damn about innocent people being manipulated and killed for the sake of their power grab, sake of the people’s good.

    Had they wanted to, they probably could have had him killed and said it was necessary because there was “no other way” to remove him from office, which was the legal and legitimate thing to do. But no, instead their show of mercy is used as an opportunity to condemn their otherwise totally appropriate action. Maybe they will amend the process to be that upon agreement of the legislature and the court, the traitor in question is to be executed at the first possible moment.

    “Not to be too hard-hearted about it, but if some practically pantless refugees from the English-Scottish border could realize the ideal of a Constitutional Republic, why can’t those sons of the Conquistadores?” Comment by nk
    Two reasons:
    1. Scots(alone) are Scots (Tongue-in-cheek from a Scot)
    2. They were not opposed by lying, thieving, cheating marxists being funded by larger powers.

    MD in Philly (9fa3fb)

  81. #78 — Comment by JW Democrat — 8/28/2009 @ 4:43 pm

    Pons, The law is the law, right? There was no trial, he was arrested and thrown out of the country illegally.
    Expulsion as opposed to imprisonment (after conviction) is also unconstitutional.

    You may not like Zelaya, but it’s not like there are simply white hats and black hats. The country is a mess.

    JW, I see your point.

    You are right; they did not do it “the correct American-way.”

    Here was a situation where a sitting President defied a (unanimous) Supreme Court order to the military to not carry out “the logistics of the vote as it normally would do”. (There were all kinds of court orders to Zelaya).

    President Zelaya countermanded that order and (eventually) would lead some of his supporters to a military base where he tried to gain possession of the ballots.

    Pause.

    This is Honduras with an enormous history (including recent history) of violent political/civil wars. This country does not have two centuries of democratic experience, that being a relatively new experience for the people.

    The democratic intuitions acted as best they could, and in the interests of the people (both current and future) in a dire situation where the likely result would be civil war or dictatorship or both. The Supreme Court okay-ed the arrest of Zelaya. The military escorted him out. No civil war; in fact no deaths. The country remains intact with its democratic institutions in a functional state. The constitutionally mandated successor became President. The elections are scheduled.

    Nothing is perfect, and upon examining our own history, I submit that the struggle for survival (especially of a democracy) is in fact an experiment to induce a divergent force (human nature) to voluntarily converge.

    Beyond all that, it is not correct (morally, ethically, legally) for President Obama to try to impose Zelaya back onto the people of Honduras.

    It is to his shame — and ours.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  82. They were opposed by inbred feudalists of dubious antecedents, questionable talent, and exotic diseases, that’s true.

    I wonder if historians, a thousand years from now, will call the American Revolution “The War of the Georges”. 😉

    nk (b17d90)

  83. MD in Philly, good to see you back!

    Hey guess what?

    They found glycine on a comet! 😉

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  84. Pons – Sadly, ones like JW cheerlead Barcky on while he and his Leftist buddies shit on the people of Honduras.

    JD (3ab713)

  85. Oops — #83 is a threadjack; sorry for the interruption 😉

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  86. Oops

    Pons – They should be ashamed. America is actively dropping a deuce on the people of Honduras, all because they had the temerity to not follow Barcky’s dictates from on high.

    JW and its ilk are cheerleading this steaming pile of cow dung in service of the Leftist narrative. They are disgusting. And, they intentionally conflate procedural errors when applying our system and standards to the right, just, and proper removal from office immediately upon even proposing to diverge from their Constitution, as is called for. Zelaya couped himself as soon as he did that.

    JD (40c95d)

  87. JD @84 — they are going to lose on this one JD, no matter what happens.

    If Zelaya is reimposed — dictatorship. President Obama loses and the People of Honduras lose even more.

    If Honduran Democracy survives, President Obama loses and the People win.

    (I’m praying for the latter case).

    Logically (even without regard to ethics or morality) this course of action makes no sense.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  88. JD @ 86:
    they intentionally conflate procedural errors when applying our system and standards to the right, just, and proper removal from office immediately upon even proposing to diverge from their Constitution, as is called for.

    Perfectly stated, JD.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  89. More Pons, less sunburns. Never bad advise.

    Hardly perfectly stated, unless by perfectly, you mean “Congrats on typing a sentence without any curse words, JD”. 😉

    JD (4cd453)

  90. Plus, interfering in the internal affairs of Israel and Honduras, no problem for Baracky.

    Commenting negatively about rampant election fraud in Iran – NFW, don’t ask him to go there, somebody might get offended.

    Makes perfect sense.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  91. He is going well beyond interfering with Honduras, daley.

    He really has a hard-on for those Hondurans.

    JD (725e5a)

  92. Slipping ’em the stiff banana JD.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  93. If Zelaya is reimposed — dictatorship. President Obama loses and the People of Honduras lose even more.

    If Honduran Democracy survives, President Obama loses and the People win.

    I think you mean if a Chavez schlemiel isn’t installed, Obama loses. That’s everyone’s fulfillment.

    Zelaya is not going to be reimposed. His term ends in 130 days, anyway.

    My guess is whoever rules Honduras a year from now will call it a democracy, temporarily restore press freedoms, and systematically purge opponents to consolidate power — which probably requires he allow Zelaya home under an amnesty grant. Whatever his bloodline and ideology, he will not appear a gringo-loving toady. Hillary will not attend the inaugural.

    All of this is best-case.

    steve (dba6e2)

  94. steve still does not want to talk about Barcky’s position on this whole thing.

    JD (4cd453)

  95. As for the prediction of a systematic purge of opposition — it has been done a hundred times in Latin America, but something different happened here and therefore I disagree.

    I think the Democratic Institutions of Honduras grew in strength and wisdom. Its Constitution remains intact and the majority of Hondurans are more determined to keep it that way. The military officers, who refused to assist in Zelaya’s illegal quest, remain at their posts and have proven that they are men of honor (rest assure that such leadership has been well noted by the line troops and junior officers).

    Either way, the fact that President Obama failed to recognize what has occurred, then sided with Castro and Chavez — is disgraceful and beyond repugnant. What an opportunity he had…we had. It is now lost.

    Hillary will not attend the inaugural.

    If this fledgling democracy survives, it will not be thanks to President Obama — he has tried (and is trying) to kill it. It is unlikely that anyone in the Obama Administration would be welcomed.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  96. steve still does not want to talk about Barcky’s position on this whole thing.

    Me neither — It makes me want to vomit when I talk of our President’s policy regarding Honduras.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  97. #78 — Comment by JW Democrat — 8/28/2009 @ 4:43 pm

    Pons, The law is the law, right? There was no trial, he was arrested and thrown out of the country illegally.<
    Expulsion as opposed to imprisonment (after conviction) is also unconstitutional.

    While the shipping of Zelaya was wrong (though forgivable, considering the guy was in actual danger from a lot of sides – the military was being nice and shipping him out instead of locking him up to likely be killed), you are forgetting something…

    They didn’t need a trial to remove him. Upon the finding that he’s tried to game the system and change the rules so he could seek a second term, he was done as President. The provision in the Honduran Constitution states that what he did leads to immediate forfiture of office, and instant removal. Heck, they even gave him a second chance by telling him to stop. When he decided to go ahead anyways, they chucked him out, and replaced him with the next in line (who happened to be of the same political party, so it wouldn’t have been like Pelosi replacing Bush with Reid).

    And I would remind you, dope, that not only did Zelaya try to fire a guy or two for refusing to run the election/vote he wanted them too (and they were re-instated, btw, by the legislature), they also found the computers Zelaya had to tabulate the vote, and they showed that the vote’s outcome was very strongly in his favor…

    The only problem being that the vote never took place, so how ever did those results get on the computers?

    It’s almost enough to make you suspect that the vote was rigged. Then again, it was Chavez-supported, so maybe it isn’t all that surprising.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  98. “Odd that President Obama policy is effectively centered on trying to destabilize the democratic institutions of Honduras (Supreme Court, Appellate Court of the Administrative Law Tribunal, Administrative Law Tribunal, Supreme Electoral Tribunal, Congress, Attorney General, Joint Chiefs of Staff, etc) and, in conjunction with Castro and Chavez, support Zelaya’s chance for a dictatorship.”

    What’s odd about it? That’s exactly what I would expect from the Halfwit-in-Chief. Backstab America’s friends, help her enemies, is the order of the day.

    Zelaya is aligned with communist Cuba and America-hating Venezuela, so the Obama administration tries to help Zelaya.

    Makes total sense.

    Dave Surls (fc6240)

  99. Zelaya is aligned with communist Cuba and America-hating Venezuela, so the Obama administration tries to help Zelaya.

    Zelaya’s international “alignments” are such an obsession. The man was tossed for trying to end-run a single-term rule and deserved to be tried and removed, not exiled and martyred.

    Conservatives entertain the daydream that Honduras is in the throes of a populist uprising, overthrowing decades of imprisonment, oppression and socialism. What happened on 28 July was not that romantic.

    steve (3a2115)

  100. 28 June, steve.

    steve (46a713)

  101. martyred, steve? He’s not dead.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  102. “The man was tossed for trying to end-run a single-term rule and deserved to be tried and removed”

    steve – You are correct, the alignments are a secondary part of the story. On the facts alone Zelaya should be out. Looking at the the second level, the alignments, it appears against America’s interests to support his reinstatement against the laws of Honduras. Also, don’t forget, the Honduran Constitution does not call for any trial before his removal. It’s not like the U.S. Constitution in that way. Why does this have to be constantly repeated?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  103. What hyperbole,

    MD in Philly, by your own logic you condemn Zelaya for what you praise in his opponents: a contempt for the rule of law.

    Zelaya proposed holding a non-binding referendum asking if the people would accept a 4th ballot box in the upcoming election- an election he would not take part in- on the question of convening a constituent assembly for the forming of a new constitution.
    The existing constitution as written says nothing about a constituent assembly or making a new constitution from scratch.
    And in fact the decree concerning the coup does not even mention the referendum, claiming instead that Zelaya was trying to extend his term in office which he was not. He could not legally run in the upcoming election and he did not propose to.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/honduran-coup-decree-show_b_255600.html

    On larger issues, here’s Businessweek
    http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/db20090629_337856.htm
    “Along with Haiti, Nicaragua, and Guyana, Honduras is one of the poorest countries in the Western Hemisphere. Two-thirds of its 7.8 million citizens live below the poverty line, and unemployment is estimated at 28%. The country has one of Latin America’s most unequal distributions of wealth: The poorest 10% of the population receives just 1.2% of the country’s wealth, while the richest 10% collect 42%.”

    Whatever you think of Chavez he was elected, as was Uribe in Colombia, whom the US supports and who is more implicated by direct links to crime and terror than Chavez, but from the other side. The coup was funded by the same people who backed the coup attempt against Chavez.
    Google Billy Joya, the name mentioned in my first comment. Maybe an old friend of the US but not a friend of democracy.

    The situation is a mess. And meanwhile you equate Obama to Fu Manchu Joseph Stalin, ruler of the evil empire of Sweden and France. And people listen to preachers pray for the president’s death and bring guns to public meetings.
    Do you have any shame at all?

    JW Democrat (1e4a3b)

  104. I hate supercache

    JD (d94c46)

  105. So Honduras is one of the poorest countries in the hemisphere, and Barcky is going all punitive on their arse because they will not reinstate someone who was trying to do something prohibited by their Constitution, the very proposal disqualifies the person from office. JW Dem and their ilk are disgusting in their desire to drop a deuce on the Honduran people for standing up to a dicktator and Teh One.

    JD (d94c46)

  106. […] needed its big friend the USA to stand by its side – like Honduras did for us in Iraq – Obama sided with the Chavista side. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Journalism with a […]

    About Time: Global Anti-Chavez Day « The Rhetorican (453ee2)

  107. And people listen to preachers pray for the president’s death and bring guns to public meetings.
    Do you have any shame at all?

    You’re quite the lying asshole, aren’t you? Either STFU from now on, or this gem will be going after every one of your posts, Twinkie.

    Dmac (e6d1c2)

  108. “as was Uribe in Colombia, whom the US supports and who is more implicated by direct links to crime and terror than Chavez, but from the other side.”

    JW Democrat – Let’s hear the myths about Uribe and terror. I also want to hear about that U.S. support. Why won’t the Democrats approve a new trade agreement with Colombia again? Some made up BS about trade union violence or are they afraid it will anger Comrade Hugo?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  109. Sorry JW Democrat, I would not depend on the Huffington Post if it told me that the moon really wasn’t made of cheese.

    MD in Philly (9fa3fb)

  110. Honduran Constitution does not call for any trial before his removal. It’s not like the U.S. Constitution in that way. Why does this have to be constantly repeated?

    It calls for forging his signature on a fake letter of resignation?

    Then Congress produced what it said was Mr. Zelaya’s letter of resignation, which it voted to accept. The ousted president dismissed the letter as a fake.

    steve (287dda)

  111. steve – we get it. You and Barcky are actively and objectively in favor of wannabe socialist dicktators violating the Honduran Constitution, and the Honduran people, their Supreme Court, and all that oppose you are stupid and should be shat on.

    JD (c87796)

  112. The National Security Archive
    http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB131/index.htm

    U.S. INTELLIGENCE LISTED COLOMBIAN PRESIDENT URIBE AMONG
    “IMPORTANT COLOMBIAN NARCO-TRAFFICKERS” IN 1991
    Then-Senator “Dedicated to Collaboration with the Medellín Cartel at High Government Levels”

    You make it too damned easy.

    JW Democrat (1e4a3b)

  113. JW Democrat – You should read your own smears. Don’t you have anything good?

    “”Because both the source of the report and the reporting officer’s comments section were not declassified, we cannot be sure how the DIA judged the accuracy of this information,” said Michael Evans, director of the Archive’s Colombia Documentation Project, “but we do know that intelligence officials believed the document was serious and important enough to pass on to analysts in Washington.”

    In a statement issued on July 30, the Colombian government took exception to several items reported in the document, saying that Uribe has never had any foreign business dealings, that his father was killed while fleeing a kidnap attempt by FARC guerrillas, and that he had not opposed the extradition treaty, but merely hoped to postpone a referendum to prevent the possibility that narcotraffickers would influence the vote.

    The communiqué, however, did not deny the most significant allegation reported in the document: that Uribe had a close personal relationship with Pablo Escobar and business dealings with the Medellín Cartel.”

    daleyrocks (718861)

  114. “It calls for forging his signature on a fake letter of resignation?”

    steve – Does the Honduran Constitution require his resignation?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  115. Add JW to the group of people that support socialist dicktaters ober the people and the Constitution of Honduras, who must be f*cked f*cked f*cked for not submitting to Barcky’s desires.

    JD (c87796)

  116. “And people listen to preachers pray for the president’s death and bring guns to public meetings.”

    And billy clubs to polling places.

    Have you no shame?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  117. “Zelaya’s international “alignments” are such an obsession.”

    This is our primary concern, since Honduran internal affairs are basically none of our business.

    Dave Surls (5896ee)

  118. #103 — Comment by JW Democrat — 8/29/2009 @ 8:29 am

    Zelaya proposed holding a non-binding referendum asking if the people would accept a 4th ballot box in the upcoming election- an election he would not take part in- on the question of convening a constituent assembly for the forming of a new constitution.

    The reason the Honduras Constitution expressly forbids the tampering of the Presidential term-limit is because historically, that is how other dictatorships in Latin America sometimes occur (most recently in Venezuela).

    (from scoop): As a result of this vote [on the referendum], the president hoped to eliminate, as has been recently done in a number of other Latin American countries, and as is about to take place in Colombia, the existing one-term limit placed on Honduran presidents to qualify for office.

    Allowing a referendum that enables a Latin America dictatorial tradition to occur was ruled illegal and unconstitutional throughout the Honduran legal process.

    Apparently, President Obama believes that Zelaya had every right to break the laws and defy the constitution of Honduras. President Obama’s attempt to restore Zelaya’s presidency is ugly and repugnant. From an American perspective, it is shameful and disappointing.

    Pons Asiorum (20c241)

  119. Comment by JW Democrat — 8/29/2009 @ 8:29 am

    JW, a quick note on the Huffingtonpost, which we both used as a source.

    You used a liberal source to condemn a conservative (and mainstream) position.
    I used a liberal source to confirm a conservative (and mainstream) position.

    Liberal condemning conservative – meaningless.
    Liberal supporting conservative — meaningful.

    I hope you understand the distinction and why the directional-sense of this logic can only be meaningful one-way.

    BTW: it would also work in the conservative-supporting-liberal direction (of course, for that to be useful, you would need to present it to a conservative who is arguing on a liberal blog).

    Hope that helps with finding credible sources.

    Pons Asiorum (20c241)

  120. Thanks, Pons, for the greeting and the assist on a point.

    JW D, I believe that a major issue was that Honduran law states that only the legislature has the authority to hold a referendum, and the fact that Zelaya persisted in his attempt to hold it himself was an unconstitutional act. It would be like Obama holding a referendum on eliminating the restriction on the US Presidency to only 2 terms, with ballots printed by Chavez, Castro, or Putin. I know some would love that, but not all of us.

    And yes, Pons, I saw that note about glycine in the comet, but didn’t really read it. (Glycine is only glycine, is my thought.)

    MD in Philly (9fa3fb)


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