Patterico's Pontifications

7/10/2009

Government Intervention and the Mortgage Meltdown

Filed under: General — DRJ @ 11:51 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

University of Michigan Professor Mark J. Perry posted excerpts at his blog Carpe Diem from Tuesday’s report by the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Oversight and Government Reform regarding the 2007 housing bubble and recent financial crisis. The report listed government intervention as a significant cause:

“The housing bubble that burst in 2007 and led to a financial crisis can be traced back to federal government intervention in the U.S. housing market intended to help provide homeownership opportunities for more Americans. This intervention began with two government-backed corporations, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which privatized their profits but socialized their risks, creating powerful incentives for them to act recklessly and exposing taxpayers to tremendous losses.”

The solution:

“Washington must reexamine its politically expedient but irresponsible approach to encouraging higher levels of homeownership based on imprudently small down payments and too little emphasis on borrowers’ creditworthiness and ability to repay their loans. Without such a return to fiscal discipline and responsibility, we will continue making the same mistakes that led us to the current financial crisis.”

I don’t think Washington is listening.

— DRJ

68 Responses to “Government Intervention and the Mortgage Meltdown”

  1. The housing crisis begins with the governments decision to allow the Community Reinvestment Act. This allowed special interest groups to shakedown banks and allowed government to prevent bank expansion or growth in new markets.

    When the Congress ended the Glass Stegall Act it removed one of the barriers that helped prevent a financial debacle, but it was the dhimmirats that pushed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to push subprime loans and finally NINJA loans.

    The financial press and government did not tell the public that NINJA loans allowed loans based on unemployment, welfare and even food stamps. It never was troubled that loans could be made to illegal aliens who had little stake in paying for an overvalued property if they were illegally in the country and their job had disappeared.

    Worse because of easy money pushed by these two agencies fraud in states with high illegal populations was at extraordinary levels as the FBI now reports, especially in California, Nevada, Illinois, Michigan, and Florida.

    Because of overbuilding we are now seeing desperate landlords filling vacant townhouses, condos, and apartments with section 8 types.

    The only question is whether we face stagflation, hyperinflation, or deflation. As Treasury instruments head towards the zero level the governments ability to influence the crisis through monetary methods will lessen, just as Japan discovered in the late 1980s.

    It looks like we face a repeat of the seventies, except this time things will look much darker.

    Thomas Jackson (8ffd46)

  2. Thomas knows how to blame: Government.

    imdw (ea0098)

  3. Lies, lies, lies. Damn lies. It is all Bush’s fault. He didn’t regulate something properly, or deregulated something. I know this to be true.

    JD (10d46c)

  4. Buying a house is spensive cause of how much money they cost. A lot of people don’t realize this.

    happyfeet (d4866a)

  5. Poor Prof is going to be blown-off as a Conservative lackey.
    Happens all the time nowadays when someone points out that democratic/socialist theory never really works….

    pitchforksntorches (4dd8c4)

  6. An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before,
    but had once failed an entire class.

    That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

    The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”.

    All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.

    After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B.
    The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.

    As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.
    The second test average was a D!
    No one was happy.

    When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

    The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

    All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

    pitchforksntorches (4dd8c4)

  7. The other consequence of this policy is a rise in illegal income, not an issue in a classroom but that is why Italy is so prosperous even though their GDP is low.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  8. What, enticing people into debt they couldn’t handle or afford, plus the collective treatment of real estate as an ATM wasn’t a good idea?

    I’m shocked, SHOCKED!

    Techie (482700)

  9. imdw – Do you disagree with things in the report or are you just making another nonsubstantive comment? The report basically supports the positions taken by many here on this blog over many months about the causes of the housing and mortgage crisis. IMAGINE THAT! There is no way the full committee would have allowed it to be issued in my humble opinion.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  10. And now Congress is evidently looking at rescuing auto dealers who didn’t survive bankrupcy court.

    http://www.detnews.com/article/20090709/AUTO01/907090457/1148/Majority-of-House-supports-bill-to-reverse-dealer-closings

    Soronel Haetir (2a5236)

  11. What else is spensive? Decent landscaping. You can’t just plant some stupid sapling and call it good. Really you shouldn’t do your own landscaping unless you’re maybe gay or you watch a lot of cable.

    hf (9bda9c)

  12. Without such a return to fiscal discipline and responsibility

    Is that some kind of sick joke? The days of fiscal discipline and responsibility are long gone. Our system will crash, then we will be slaves to our foreign creditors.

    And yes, Obama fans – I say that as if it’s a bad thing.

    Amphipolis (42043b)

  13. I wish more people would view the youtube vid regarding the Fannie/Freddy hearings, where Bawney Frank basically slobbers all over Franklin Raines as they both laud the other’s efforts at bankrupting the taxpayers in order to help people who had no business buying a home in the first place. When I bought my first condo back in ’89, I absolutely had to come up with a minimum down payment of 20%, along with extensive documentation of my assets and at least 3 years of W – 2’s in order to back up my ability to pay the mortgage. I’m the big sucker in all of this mess, as well as the vast majority of homeowners who were responsible savers and tried to live within their means.

    Dmac (e6d1c2)

  14. intended to help provide homeownership opportunities for more Americans.

    The saying of the day: “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.”

    There was an interactive chart prepared by the New York Times awhile back, in which a person could key in various numbers (such as personal income, price of a residential property, mortgage rates) to determine how he or she would be helped (or not) by home ownership. Or how good an investment it would be.

    The chart had been prepared in tandem with an article that home ownership compared with renting was not as good as commonly believed. Even more so based on almost everyone’s assumption that the tax deduction for a mortgage was such an invaluable boost to a person’s portfolio that the non-deductible cost of a rental, by comparison, was a big disadvantage.

    The chart was an eye opener because it pretty much backed up the contention that owner-occupied versus renter-occupied was better for the purely symbolic and psychological value it brought to a person more than the actual benefits it provided to his or her (or a couple’s) P&L statements.

    Mark (411533)

  15. I suggest y’all read Anatomy of a Train Wreck written by Professor Stan Liebowitz of the University of Texas Arlington.

    http://johnrlott.tripod.com/Liebowitz_Housing.pdf

    It is one of the most informative pieces on the housing bust, and the reasons for it, that I have ever read.

    Dr. Liebowitz (his website can be found at UTA), along with Professor Day, debunked the Boston Fed report and subsequent claim that minorities were being “redlined” to prevent them from being able to purchase homes. It was the Boston Fed report that prompted the changes in lending practices for agencies that sold their mortagages to the GSEs.

    So once again, social engineering, forced through by a faulty report, and being done through the mortgage industry, had unintended consequences that Democrats are now not willing to take responsibility for.

    The warning signs were there and they were in bright neon orange, to anyone who was willing to look. But again, the goal was not to make sure that poor people could afford homes, the goal was to make sure that poor people who could not
    afford homes got into them anyway so politicians could say “Elect me again. Look what I have done for you.”

    Social engineering, whether it is through set asides, affirmative action or financial machinations, never work and in the end, will only have disasterous results.

    Now, Barney Frank, one of the most disgraceful politicans every elected, is demanding the federal government, once again, lower the lending standards for “condominiums” (read: public housing privately owned).

    In the ’50’s we had a building boom as soldiers, who had returned from the war with months of back pay in their pockets and a G.I. bill that facilitated mortgages, started buying trac homes in the suburbs of major cities. They did not lose their homes because standard lending practices prevailed; 20% down, monthly payment tied to monthly income, etc.

    You cannot go into a home without some sweat equity (savings) put into it. And the big lie is that everyone deserves to own a home even if they can’t afford it. That concept is right out of FDR’s Second Bill Of Rights.

    Nothing has changed and we will see another housing boom/bust again, as the government continues to follow the belief that society can be engineered for a desired result.

    retire05 (7686a7)

  16. Cause of the hyperinflations the barack obama is making it’s not unsmart to think about buying a hoose. We’ve never emulated Zimbabwe before so it’s hard to say but that’s my guess.

    hf (9bda9c)

  17. And with renting, you can always break or not renew your lease, giving workers greater mobility to follow work.

    When you own the house, you are partially tethered to it until you can find a buyer to sell it too.

    Techie (482700)

  18. “Cause of the hyperinflations the barack obama is making it’s not unsmart to think about buying a hoose. ”

    So what’s the latest CPI numbers?

    imdw (c5db6c)

  19. Cause of the hyperinflations the barack obama is making it’s not unsmart to think about buying a hoose

    Actually, if were are going to experience hyperinflation, the smart thing to do would be to buy real assets on credit. If money is going to be worth less in the future (because of the hyperinflation), it just makes sense to purchase an asset with X future dollars than X present dollars.

    Go out and get a fixed-rate mortgage. 10 years from now, your monthly payment will look like chicken feed.

    Steverino (69d941)

  20. Comment by Steverino — 7/11/2009 @ 9:59 am

    All true, if you’re still working.
    But, if you’ve retired, with a relatively fixed income, not so good – particularly if you still have part of that mortgage to pay on.

    AD - RtR/OS! (619f68)

  21. “When you own the house, you are partially tethered to it until you can find a buyer to sell it too.”

    Techie – Not with one of those “0% Down” affordable housing programs the democrats and their buddies kept pushing. Just give the bank back the keys to the hoose or let them come get it.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  22. Comment by imdw — 7/11/2009 @ 9:50 am

    You tell us, since you brought it up.
    And, please, explain its’ relevance to the discussion on how the GSE’s were contributors to, if not a primary cause of, the housing debacle.

    AD - RtR/OS! (619f68)

  23. #15 Cato has a book coming out in two months called Financial Fiasco by a Norwegian guy called Johan Norberg … How America’s Infatuation With Home Ownership and Easy Money Created the Economic Crisis …

    hf (9bda9c)

  24. I mean Swedish

    hf (9bda9c)

  25. All true, if you’re still working.
    But, if you’ve retired, with a relatively fixed income, not so good – particularly if you still have part of that mortgage to pay on.

    If you’re not working, then use some of your nest egg to buy an asset that keeps up with the hyperinflation. That way, at least that part of your nest egg will not be eroded.

    But even if you’re using borrowed dollars, as long as the interest rate you pay is less than the inflation rate, you come out ahead.

    Steverino (69d941)

  26. imdw – How are your Honduran coup theories working out for you?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  27. Comment by Steverino — 7/11/2009 @ 10:44 am

    Every spare cent goes into guns & ammo (and I’m not talking about the magazine).

    AD - RtR/OS! (619f68)

  28. AD – RtR/OS!,

    You really need magazines for the guns and ammo to work together properly. You wouldn’t want to be reduced to single shots in a target rich environment.

    Rick Ballard (a6b315)

  29. Funny Rick, real ….ing funny.
    But, as everyone knows, being in CA and restricted to buying mags holding no more than ten rounds, it’s almost like using an old single-shot.
    Remind me on my next trip back East to pick up some more 20-rounders for the M1A.

    AD - RtR/OS! (619f68)

  30. privatized their profits but socialized their risks

    You would think that it would be possible to get the left angry about this.

    aphrael (9e8ccd)

  31. Not considering who was running them, and who was profiting, aphrael. You have to recall that people like yourself are the exception.

    JD (60310b)

  32. Let me give you a prime example of how mortgages were given to those who should have never gotten them, my own daughter.

    She and her husband both had horrible credit ratings from their single days. They had only been married a couple of years and were facing the birth of their second child. But there was easy money out there and they wanted to but a home. They knew the baby would be the same gender as their first child, so I recommened a starter home; two bedrooms, bath and a half, one that was just perfect for a couple with two children that would share a bedroom. Cost? $62,000. Yeah, it was a fixer upper, but all it really needed was some paint, some cheap tile put into the kitchen and wholla! a nice home for a young couple who could have lived there for five years, build equity and look for a larger home so the kids could have separate bedroom at the ages of 8 and 3.

    Instead here is what they got:

    Brand new home in a subdivision. A 3-2 around 1800 s.f. Cost? $114K plus closing costs. Terms? No money down and a rebate from the builder of $1K to Home Depot for fencing, etc. They were given an introductory interest rate that was 2.5% below norm for 2 years. Initial payments? $1,100/month, almost half of their take home pay.

    Within two years, their interest rate went up, their home had increased in value by $26,000 (2 yrs x 10% Texas limits), their insurance increased to reflect the $26,000 increase in value and their interest rate had gone up. In two years, their payments were almost $1,600 a month. Add to that additional day care expenses (higher for children under the age of two), a new car at $800/month, credit card debt that they had acquired buying things like an expensive refrigerator, lawn furniture, new bedroom furniture and they were in deep trouble.

    My son in law got laid off and all they had was her income. So the first thing deleted from the budget was the $1,500 house payment. Within three months, they were facing forclosure and a divorce.

    When my daughter came to me and wanted me to catch up on her housepayment, knowing she had no way to make additional payments, I reminded her that the house was her decision, she had discounted my idea of a starter home and sorry, but I would not bail her out.

    It took the mortgage company almost 9 months to send her a forclosure notice. She live there until they did.

    Now she is living in a small two bedroom apartment, not much bigger than my travel trailer and the kids are still sleeping together (by choice).

    This story is not unusal. Instead, it is closer to the norm. People buying homes with easy money forced on lending agencies by the fed. And within a couple of years, due to increases in interest, insurance and taxes, along with credit card debt, they are in forclosure.

    So when you hear all these bleating hearts decry how evil the mortgage industry is remember these two things: the mortgage industry was controlled by the government and no one puts a gun to your head making you buy a home you have no possible hope of ever being able to afford.

    retire05 (7686a7)

  33. #15

    Excellent comment. You might look at Sowell’s latest book regarding this train wreck. Its amazing how much Obama’s policies will probably duplicate the zombie years of the Japanese economy. The only question will be how long the after effects last.

    Its amazing the number of cities that became ghost towns during the 70s. No doubt many thriving communities will also become ghost towns. Going into debt during periods of inflation is risky especially if you miss the turns or your projections are wrong. Few make money during inflationary periods and many are ruined. Its also interesting to note where nations turn their currencies into monooply money, like Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Angola, etc. the government demands payment not in their own currency but in hard currencies. One wonders if the American economy could reach this state.

    Its amazing how cheap Buenos Aires is today because of Kischner’s policies. They are the same as Obama’s.

    Thomas Jackson (8ffd46)

  34. Comment by JD — 7/11/2009 @ 12:08 pm

    An inconvenient truth that the Left just glosses over are the bonuses to top officials at the GSE’s in the eight-figures, and the party affiliation (and history) of those officials; People like the aforementioned Franklin Raines, plus Jamie Gorelick, and Rahm Emanuel!

    But, but, they only did because of the mind-control waves from Karl Rove and “Darth” Cheney.

    AD - RtR/OS! (619f68)

  35. “…Its amazing how cheap Buenos Aires is today because of Kischner’s policies…”

    Just because it’s cheap doesn’t equate to a high desirability quotient.

    I can remember standing on a downtown Madrid street-corner early in the pre-dawn darkness during the Franco years, and remarking that we would never do this back in the States due to the high probability of street-crime, but I wouldn’t want to live in such a pseudo-police state.

    AD - RtR/OS! (619f68)

  36. You tell us, since you brought it up.
    And, please, explain its’ relevance to the discussion

    You may as well ask an elephant to do a backflip -it has no interest in an actual debate, it only exists to lob inane statements poorly disguised as just asking questions.

    Dmac (e6d1c2)

  37. “You tell us, since you brought it up.”

    Brought up what? Price levels? You can google CPI if you want them. Of course, what you can tell i’m asking is how the CPI number fits into the hyperinflaiton theory.

    “People buying homes with easy money forced on lending agencies by the fed.”

    It was so tough, they cried. We HAD to give them that money.

    imdw (699b4b)

  38. Comment by Dmac — 7/11/2009 @ 12:42 pm

    My fingers were restless, and I’m tired of patching the bullet holes in the drywall.

    AD - RtR/OS! (619f68)

  39. I can remember standing on a downtown Madrid street-corner early in the pre-dawn darkness during the Franco years, and remarking that we would never do this back in the States due to the high probability of street-crime

    And yet … I’ve stood on downtown street corners in the pre-dawn darkness many times, in San Francisco, and San Jose, and Los Angeles, and Seattle, and Boston, and never once had a problem.

    I have long suspected that the fear of street crime in the US is somewhat exaggerated.

    aphrael (9e8ccd)

  40. Not considering who was running them, and who was profiting, aphrael. You have to recall that people like yourself are the exception.

    Maybe, JD.

    But it still seems to me that an honest leftist ought to be horrified by privatizing profit and socializing risk. Sure, he’d be in favor of socializing the risk in cases like this; but the leftists I know would think that privatizing the profit, in this case, was just allowing people to rob the government blind.

    aphrael (9e8ccd)

  41. A 3-2 around 1800 s.f. Cost? $114K plus closing costs.

    Wow.

    A mobile home wouldn’t go for that here.

    aphrael (9e8ccd)

  42. http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,druck-635051,00.html

    has a very interesting article on how the world bankers ignored one of their own who predicted most of what happened.

    voiceofreason2 (451cf4)

  43. Since 1949:

    The Housing Act of 1949:
    The 1968 Fair Housing Act/FHA Section 235 program
    The Stewart B. McKinney Homeless Assistance Act of 1987
    The 1990 Cranston-Gonzalez National Affordable Housing Act
    The Housing and Community Development Act of 1997
    The American Dream Downpayment Act of 2003

    Our government has a vested interest in the housing of Americans. Have we learned a lesson from this yet, America ?

    DaveinPhoenix (135adb)

  44. Strange I never thought of Franco’s Spain as a police state. During the same period Paris was awash in its national police totting submachine guns. Which was the police state? Guns usually are a tip off.

    London today is a crime center. You are three times as likely to be a victim of a violent crime in London as NYC. Just goes to show that crime is much more likely in an atmosphere of permissiveness and distain for the law than in a society that promotes and values order.

    In the USA today we see the same sort of crime rates in Leftwing run areas like Oakland, NYC, San Francisco and Detroit.

    Thomas Jackson (8ffd46)

  45. Anyone wondering aloud whether or not Franco’s Spain was a police state must do some additional reading on the subject.

    Guns usually are a tip off

    Franco’s thugs never needed to patrol the streets with weapons, because anyone opposed to their rule knew exactly what would have happened to them.

    Dmac (e6d1c2)

  46. #34 — Comment by AD – RtR/OS! — 7/11/2009 @ 12:25 pm

    To be fair AD, Mr Raines was compelled to give some of it back. Let’s see, if memory serves…(disclosure: cut and paste from a previous comment I made)…

    There were some “irregularities” in how Mr. Raines kept his companies books, and he had to pay back:
    $24.7 million in cash
    $2 million fine
    $15.6 million in stock options (value at the time of the penalty)

    The tally is a take-home check of just under a $50 million (not bad for a dishonest days work).

    Pons Asinorum (cba947)

  47. Good link, VOR2. Thanks.

    DRJ (6f3f43)

  48. #46

    Do tell us what would have happened to Franco’s opposition. Can you cite the locations of the concentration camps?

    How many political prisoners “disappeared” as compared with Castro’s Cuba for example.

    Seems like police state is thrown around very easily by those who have never been in a police state or realize what they are.

    But then again by your definition Obama’s America is a police state. I suggest you review some the bills pending in Congress that the Dhimmirats have proposed regarding detention camps for domestic terrorists.

    Thomas Jackson (8ffd46)

  49. Do tell us what would have happened to Franco’s opposition. Can you cite the locations of the concentration camps?

    Once again, your ignorance is astounding regarding this issue:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/world/europe/01franco.html

    http://www.vnavarro.org/?p=606&lang=es

    http://www.amnesty.nl/bibliotheek_vervolg/thema_berechting_case_2

    Conservative estimates from both sides of the debate agree on the number of political prisoners killed/executed during Franco’s regime at 30,000.

    How many political prisoners “disappeared” as compared with Castro’s Cuba for example.

    I just told you, but nice strawman you built there.

    Dmac (e6d1c2)

  50. I was in Spain in 1975, and I saw four types of policemen — the Guardia Civil, always in pairs, with rifles slung over their shoulders and the distinctive leather toreador hats; green-dressed policemen armed with submachine guns on guard at certain locations; cops like ours in police cars with pistols; and traffic cops, in traffic islands with the old-fashioned gold-button fancy uniforms and “bobby” helmets. If the later were armed you could not tell because the gun would be under their tunic. IIRC, the Basque separatists were making a nuisance of themselves at the time.

    nk (138b5c)

  51. I wanted to take a picture of a pair with submachine guns standing at parade rest. I gestured with the camera and asked “Se permite?” One shook his head slightly and said “No”. I understood later that there was a law against photographing police on duty.

    nk (138b5c)

  52. Dmac:

    Amazing disinformation you present here. Are you trying to tell us 30,000 people were murdered by Franco in the 50, 60, or 70s?

    I ask you for the location of these concentration camps and you didn’t respond. Instead you tell of of the 30,000 Franco murdered while the number his opponeents murdered during the civil war far exceeded this number. Their behavior was so horrible that even Orwell sickened of the slaughter of communists by their fellow reds and lost confidence in their political system.

    Its obvious that for you brutal regimes just exist in your mind. Let us ignore the hundreds of thouands who have died or fled Castro as a mere “strawman” while the real concern is Franco’s police state.

    Sycophantic leftism is more lethal and disgruntled than radical Islam.

    Thanks for your meme.

    Thomas Jackson (8ffd46)

  53. You can always tell police states. Are the police everywhere? Are they armed to the teeth where one would not normally expect them. Does the state control the purchase of the necessities of life. Does it control the internal and external movements of people. Does it restrict the media, the means of printing, or reproduction (photocopying etc).

    Police states do not have tourism. They also have large pictures of the fearless leader on every street corner and usually areposted in all public buildings.

    Much like Obama is trying to do today in this country.

    Thomas Jackson (8ffd46)

  54. “Are you trying to tell us 30,000 people were murdered by Franco in the 50, 60, or 70s?”

    TJ – Those are commonly acknowledged estimates. Given the repression under his dictatorship, with which you sound completely unfamiliar, most people are not surprised.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  55. Don’t try to educate him, daley – his child’s mind cannot comprehend of any dictatorship that leans to the right of being anything but benign. Black and White is the color of his intellect, apparently.

    I ask you for the location of these concentration camps

    To which I did not respond, since I made no claim of concentration camps. Your ignorance and continual construction of numerous strawmen and irrelevant points continue to amuse.

    Are you trying to tell us 30,000 people were murdered by Franco in the 50, 60, or 70s

    Another awesome irrelevant point – but your furious backpedalling is always fun to watch. Either refute the source estimates that put the lie to your ealier claims or put a sock in that enormous blowhole.

    Dmac (e6d1c2)

  56. Dmac – There were concentration type camps in Spain which he could find out about himself, but you are right, the point is irrelevant.

    He got in too deep on a subject about which he knew nothing and it shows.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  57. #54
    Daleyrocks
    Commonly accepted estimates by whom. You have a quote provided by someone? Please provide it.

    Have you ever been to Spain? Strange that Americans who were stationed in Spain never were bothered by this police state and how no American President ever was willing to do someone about it.

    As for knowing what would happen to them if they voiced opposition you mean the NY Times would slime them? Whgat else does your cyrstal ball say and when were you in Spain?

    Thomas Jackson (8ffd46)

  58. I see the insane Chicago posse is doing their clown car act again. When you huys stop projecting and can stop with the mental gymnastics lets see some proof. Till then we all know what sort of conditions create Obama and what Chicago has evidently produced that exhibits itself here so fully.

    The medacious always think they can dismiss anything without bothering to prove it by viture of their sock puppets.

    Do consider commenting at Kos Kiddies little man. Your lack of knowledge is obvious as demonstrated by your inability to provide any evidence.

    Its so Obama of you. Sad.

    Thomas Jackson (8ffd46)

  59. Dmac:

    Your ability to answer straight forward questions to support your points is so awesome. What a brillant individual tyou are. We should all bow and listen to your braying as do your insane clown posse.

    Were you all in the same discipinary class or do you all work at McDoinalds together?

    Pathetic. I do realize that bold assertion probably substitutes for knowledge in Chicago. It really doesn’t anywhere else. But then again I can understand why someone from Chicago would really hate the outside world.

    Thomas Jackson (8ffd46)

  60. Thomas Jackson, your lack of knowledge would be laughable, if it were not so pathetically typical.

    AD - RtR/OS! (eb7d4e)

  61. AD RtR:

    I see another member of the insane Chicago Clown policy brays during the full moon.

    As usual this imbecile demonstrates that flinging feeces is considered an intelligent rebuttal. Lack of evidence constitues knowledge, bold assertion equals facts.

    Gee I am so impressed by your knowledge.

    I’m sure the readers here would also be impressed by your demonstrating where your assertions come from.

    But I see the insane clown posse loves platitudes and blosters itself by its use of sock puppets.

    Did you know that you are the orginal model for the international “woman’s restroom” symbol?

    You are the perfect trools, arrogance unhindered by knowledge.

    Dullard troll.

    Thomas Jackson (8ffd46)

  62. TJ – I was in Spain in the 1970s both before and after Franco’s death in 1975, thank you. When were you there? I also read. You should try it.

    You can easily find out about the other information you so casually dismiss with a few minutes on google. That’s easier than continuing to demonstrate your ignorance.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  63. Daleyrocks:
    I was there from 1968-69 north of Madrid.

    You can read, will wonders never cease. I had assumed you had Dmac post this for you since crayon doesn’t work on computers.

    Its amazing that you trolls think bold assertion takes the place of fact.

    So does the insane Chicago Clown Posse think its diatribes convince anyone than its own members? Your dangerous self indulgences are so boring.

    I liked it much better when you tried the projection meme.

    Res ipsa loquitur.

    Thomas Jackson (8ffd46)

  64. TJ,

    Why the harsh words? This has become more frequent with your comments and it’s not like you.

    DRJ (6f3f43)

  65. I have no desire to use harsh words but I have little use for fools and will not be treated as one. I give respect to those who demonstrate a respect for others. I do not toss feeces and demand the same of others. So when I use harsh words they are fully merited.

    I believe this is obvious to anyone who reviews these comments. As for the comments of others they are what they are (worthless, braying without substance or thought of the type associated with six year olds) hence “res ipsa loquitor.”

    Excuse me, I am rather tired. I can deal with most anyone who can post evidence to support their case, but pure assertion neither informs or enlightens. Its just the worst form of fraud and intellectual bankruptcy. The most usual example of this is google ie, look it up on wiki, or everyone agrees. Or translated into normal English, “how dare you question me and what I have made up.”

    So typical of the uneducated and intellectually bankrupt.

    Thomas Jackson (8ffd46)

  66. “pure assertion neither informs or enlightens”

    TJ – Don’t look now, but your comments in this thread were nothing but assertions when they were not accusations. Sorry to ruin your self congratulatory moment.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  67. Res ipsa loquitor, daleyrocks.

    imdw (c990d8)

  68. imdw – Heh. Sometimes you just have to point out the obvious to people who refuse to see it.

    Those comments are: “So typical of the uneducated and intellectually bankrupt.”

    He almost sounds like insufferable Cyrus.

    daleyrocks (718861)


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