Patterico's Pontifications

6/22/2009

L.A. Times Confirms Details re Neda, the Iranian Martyr

Filed under: Dog Trainer,General — Patterico @ 7:22 pm

I had been wary of this story until it was confirmed, even after seeing (and posting) the heart-wrenching video of her just after she was shot. As Allahpundit said last night: “The rumor — and it’s all rumor until some newspaper tracks down her family — is that she was 27 years old and a philosophy student.” Close: she was 26 and used to study philosophy. And a paper did track down her family. And — I’ll be damned! — the paper that did it was the L.A. Times. Credit where credit is due:

Her parents and others told her it would be dangerous to go to Saturday’s march, said Golshad. On Friday, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei had warned in his weekly prayer sermon that demonstrators would be responsible for any violence that broke out. Even Golshad stayed away. At 3:30 the two friends spoke.

“I told her, ‘Neda, don’t go,’ ” she recalled, heaving with sobs.

But she was as stubborn as she was honest, Golshad said, and she ended up going anyway.

“She said, ‘Don’t worry. It’s just one bullet and its over.’ ”

“She couldn’t stand the injustice of it all,” Panahi said. “All she wanted was the proper vote of the people to be counted.”

Ice-cream-eatin’ Obama is so outraged he plans to meet with the leaders of Iran and shake their bloody hands. Not literally (yet), but that’s the basic message being sent here:

President Barack Obama’s administration said earlier this month it would invite Iran to US embassy barbecues for the national holiday for the first time since the two nations severed relations following the 1979 Islamic revolution.

“There’s no thought to rescinding the invitations to Iranian diplomats,” State Department spokesman Ian Kelly told reporters.

Certainly not. Why on Earth would you?

Remember that disgusting picture of him shaking Hugo Chavez’s hand?

You thought that grated? Just wait until he shakes the bloody hand of that grinning idiot Dinnerjacket.

Remember.

Remember.

156 Responses to “L.A. Times Confirms Details re Neda, the Iranian Martyr”

  1. And, while young women are getting gunned down by the mad mullahs’ thugs in Iran, and we prepare to sit down with the mad mullahcrats for some 4th of July hot dogs, CNN finds at least one Iranian Protestor who is begging for outside intervention…

    “Mohammad: Americans, European Union, international community, this government is not definitely — is definitely not elected by the majority of Iranians. So it’s illegal. Do not recognize it. Stop trading with them. Impose much more sanctions against them. My message…to the international community, especially I’m addressing President Obama directly – how can a government that doesn’t recognize its people’s rights and represses them brutally and mercilessly have nuclear activities? This government is a huge threat to global peace. Will a wise man give a sharp dagger to an insane person? We need your help international community. Don’t leave us alone.”

    http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/22/iranian-protestor-plea/

    Forget about it, kiddo. We can’t get involved. Might get the mullahs mad and spoil our 4th of July barbecue.

    Dave Surls (28518b)

  2. My heart goes out to that brave young woman and her family. I can’t bear to watch the video of her murder, but that image of her blood-covered visage contrasted with her beautiful living face moves me to tears.

    With his shameful equivocation and timid silence, Obama has blown the chance to lead by example, and the shame will be compounded when he sits down at the table with this barbarous regime.

    But if by some chance the protesters have any level of success, Obama supporters will shriek with joy and point to the Hope and Change offered by the One as its cause. The absolute truth is that with his current silence, Obama will never deserve credit for success in Iran.

    Wellsy (f1957b)

  3. Enough pressure like this and The Messiah may have a conversion. No, not a moral conversion, just a realization that meeting with Iran’s butchers would hurt his popularity. Once he grasps that, it’s under the bus with the blood-stained Dinnerjacket!

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (4c6f28)

  4. “She said, ‘Don’t worry. It’s just one bullet and its over.’ ”
    ?

    nk who can stream songs and movies on his blackberry (7cc6e1)

  5. That statement contradicts all the rest of the narrative.

    nk (7cc6e1)

  6. Nk I took it be a sort of gallows humor of the “What’s the worst that could happen’ variety.

    Gazzer (5646b7)

  7. Tragic. Let’s all hope on all sides the loss of life is kept to a minimum. If Iran suceeds, Neda and others who have fallen will be in good company.

    “The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it.” – JFK.

    “‘Never in the field of human conflict has so much been owed by so many to so few.” – W.S. Churchill

    “Freedom’s untidy, and free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things.” – Donald Rumsfeld

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  8. You’re absolutely right; these are the images to have close at hand when Obama inevitably kisses up to the Iranian regime.

    The video was brutal, a terrible death visited upon this young woman by cowardly thugs.

    And that barbecue! It’s as if FDR announced an invitation to the German ambassadors during Kristallnacht.

    While Obama has no shame, surely I can’t be the only one who’s ashamed of our feckless president.

    Mike Lief (633855)

  9. A student of Gandhi’s non-violence.

    Let us all be brave enough to die the death of a martyr, but let no one lust for martyrdom.

    Nonviolence and cowardice are contradictory terms. Nonviolence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. Nonviolence springs from love, cowardice from hate. Nonviolence always suffers, cowardice would always inflict suffering. Perfect nonviolence is the highest bravery. Non-violent conduct is never demoralising, cowardice always is.

    Nonviolence and cowardice go ill together. I can imagine a fully armed man to be at heart a coward. Possession of arms implies an element of fear, if not cowardice. But true nonviolence is an impossibility without the possession of unadulterated fearlessness.

    Courage has never been known to be a matter of muscle; it is a matter of the heart. The toughest muscle has been known to tremble before an imaginary fear. It was the heart that set the muscle trembling.

    Better far than cowardice is killing and being killed in battle.

    [b]I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.[/b] Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence.

    Nonviolence is not a cover for cowardice, but it is the supreme virtue of the brave. Exercise of nonviolence requires far greater bravery than that of swordsmanship. Cowardice is wholly inconsistent with nonviolence. Translation from swordsmanship to nonviolence is possible and, at times, even an easy stage. Nonviolence, therefore, presupposes ability to strike. It is a conscious deliberate restraint put upon one’s desire for vengeance. But vengeance is any day superior to passive, effeminate and helpless submission.

    May Gandhi and all of the gods welcome her. May we have the courage to match her heart.

    htom (412a17)

  10. Why did the sniper choose her? A bystander?

    Could it be because she was not wearing hijab or a burka? Was she a martyr not only politically but as a woman who defied oppression of women?

    Anonymous (597ec1)

  11. Expiration Dates BAYBEE!!!!111!!!

    “We will not apologize for our way of life, nor will we waver in its defense. And for those who seek to advance their aims by inducing terror and slaughtering innocents, we say to you now that our spirit is stronger and cannot be broken — you cannot outlast us, and we will defeat you.” – Barack Obama 1/21/09

    “To the Muslim world, we seek a new way forward, based on mutual interest and mutual respect. To those leaders around the globe who seek to sow conflict, or blame their society’s ills on the West, know that your people will judge you on what you can build, not what you destroy.” – Barack Obama 1/21/09

    “To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history, but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your fist.” – Barack Obama 1/21/09

    daleyrocks (718861)

  12. The quote about the ‘it’s just one bullet and it’s over’ is tariff. Just typical Iranian exaggeration. I am Iranian myself and am not implying there’s anything sinister there… it’s just normal vernacular/culture to exaggerate for dramatic emphasis.

    She was, by all accounts, a wonderful person with a life ahead of her that probably looked like it was going to see a lot of great things for her country. WHAT A WASTE.

    And WHAT A WASTE IRAN HAS BEEN! It makes me so unbearably sad to think of it. I know so many people who have wasted their lives in that hell. Iran/Persia used to stand at the front of the world, but for so many centuries has accomplished nothing but stupid battles. The government brags, the shah’s son swaggers, the mullahs swear. It’s all a tremendously frustrating waste. just like this woman who was cut down in her prime

    Juan (bd4b30)

  13. Anonymous, she was wearing a Chador, which is pretty traditional in Iran. Lots of women in Iran walk around without a chador, and burkahs are certainly not considered compulsory.

    In Tehran especially, it’s not unusual to walk around in a chador. I think she was just the victim of a reckless bullet aimed at the crown in general, but I honestly have no idea why she was shot. Could just be a sick fucker saw a pretty girl and flew into a chauvinist rage of some kind.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  14. Should anyone be surprised by any of this? After all, Barry’s poor judgment and susceptibility to even worse decisionmaking skills were in full evidence based on the controversy last year with Jeremiah Wright.

    This reminds me of a debate I had with a co-worker a few months ago, who’s a big liberal, a big Obama fan. I told him if someone close to me spouted off the nonsense of a fanatic/bigot like a Reverend Wright, not only would I NOT make such a person my trusted advisor, I’d instead go “oh oh,” grimace, feel very awkward and uncomfortable, shuffle my feet, and then try to put a lot of distance between him and me.

    The fact BO did just the opposite says a lot about the way his mind works.

    Mark (411533)

  15. I much prefer Abraham Lincon

    The people of Iran have embarked on a struggle to gain their rights and turn their land into one where all people have equality

    Neda paid the last full measure of devotion to the cause of liberty and the world should honor her as much as any fallen patriot, anywhere, from anytime.I will never again think of the Iranian people and the government of Iran as being the same. these words belong to her, a fallen angel who was stolen from those who loved her.

    “But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate…we can not consecrate…we can not hallow this ground. The brave men,( and women) living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain —that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government: of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”

    andyg (296864)

  16. What no songs from Neil Young?

    Alta Bob (9f2c33)

  17. Ghandi was a delusional twit, who succeeded only because he applied his principles against a government that also possessed them. pacifism is the ultimate in cowardice….

    “War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.” John Stuart Mill

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  18. Way, way back in the day, the Iranian students came to the campus newspaper on a regular basis to triumph over the coming revolution and how it would depose the Shah and his American compatriots.

    They were right. The revolution happened and they got what they wished for. And, they stayed, for the most part, instead of going back home to finish the revolution.

    I have no sympathy for the Shah, long dead now. I have no sympathy for the revolution that replaced him.

    But, I do have sympathy for the young people — because, they’ve had to live a life under a despotic rule that their parents helped to foment when all they wanted was what we take for granted.

    Ag80 (c5ca43)

  19. I cannot explain since I am not an expert but this photo looks set up. It looks fake. Has any medical examiner commented on its authenticity?

    Mike B (ae900a)

  20. Another comment for what it’s worth (probably nothing).

    Iran will have to kill or imprison it’s next generation to stop the unrest. The population is mostly under 50. How can the ancient mullahs survive without the support of the young?

    China is facing a similar problem. How can they control the millions of young men who are growing up now without any women for them to marry?

    Ag80 (c5ca43)

  21. “…this photo looks set up.”

    Which photo?

    Dave Surls (28518b)

  22. “Who are we to judge when unarmed protestors get shot by military or military proxies? It is all so nuanced – cannot really get involved – wouldn’t want a misstatement to be mis-intrepreted, or to have an emotional response in the heat of the moment cut off future discussion…” Young Barack Obama when discussing in history class the Kent State shootings which occurred on May 4, 1970.

    (Yeehaw!) “Commandante, the protestors want freedom.” “Hmmm. Who is Presidente in America again?” “Why Commandante, Barack is in the American White House.” “In that case, Open Fire!”

    Californio (6657ce)

  23. BANG! GurrrrrggglEEEeeeeee……

    Barack Obama: “See, I told you the protests would peter out.” (“Or did I mean dribble,…no, uh gurgle…., um, maybe bleed out,..no, definitely not that. Hey look, my dog is eating an ice cream cone….with a kitten!)

    Californio (6657ce)

  24. “Ice-cream-eatin’ Obama ”

    Still on this? sheesh.

    imdw (7a86ac)

  25. Yes. Remember.

    “‘Leave this area immediately. Leave this area immediately.’ The warning was issued several times but the students were angry and stood defiant. Guards were given the order to move out, but first the students were peppered with tear gas fired from riflelike launchers… The students fell back… answered the guardsmen with rocks. Suddenly, from over the hill, there was rifle fire. Four students, two of them female, were shot to death.”

    A city square in Iran today? No. This was 39 years ago. On the campus of Kent State University in Ohio, May 4, 1970.

    The U.S. must not meddle in the internal politics of Iran.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  26. #25: the utter lack of ethical values that would let a person equate a one time aberration in one place with ongoing, official nationwide policy in another, so as to advance their personal political view in an argument is so morally bankrupt as to render all their views, past, present and future worthless.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  27. In Iran the demand for democracy is strong and broad… The regime in Tehran must heed the democratic demands of the Iranian people, or lose its last claim to legitimacy.
    George W. Bush 2003

    Ronald Reagan fought the cold war for eight years. The year he left office the Soviet Union began to crumble and fell. His successor was there willing to follow through and capitalize on that victory.

    George W. Bush fought the Axis of Evil for seven years. The year he left office one of the remaining two members of that Axis stood on the brink — will Obama stubbornly cling to his, “one world of rainbows and lollipops as long as we extend an open hand,” philosophy or will he grab the hard fought victory that has been presented to him?
    DKK

    LifeTrek (d258cb)

  28. @19

    I’m no medical expert, but I have witnessed someone get shot, and I can tell you that it looks authentic to me. I saw a guy take 3 shots to the chest and after falling back, he immediately began bleeding profusely from the mouth and nose. At first I thought I was watching a filming for a movie, and I said to myself, “This can’t be real, there is WAY too much blood.” It was terrible…

    the other JD (51ca0c)

  29. [...] Update, Patterico has a heart rending post up.  Read it all [...]

    GM’s Place.Com » Apologists for the Prez Need Not Comment (391595)

  30. “Ice-cream-eatin’ Obama ”

    Still on this? sheesh.

    Yes. Get used to it.

    Jim Treacher (796deb)

  31. @ DCSCA’s comment.

    Not only is that a dispicable comment, but the attempt at moral equivalence is dispicable. But then, that is what I’ve come to expect from you so far. Perhaps you can redeem yourself, but I doubt it.

    GM Roper (d53336)

  32. Anything is permissible, because Kent State.

    Jim Treacher (796deb)

  33. A city square in Iran today? No. This was 39 years ago. On the campus of Kent State University in Ohio, May 4, 1970.

    The U.S. must not meddle in the internal politics of Iran.

    Comment by DCSCA

    I didn’t think you could get any despicable. I was wrong.

    The debate about what Obama should have done was nothing compared to this. If he entertains those butchers at a US event while this is still going on, he should never be allowed to forget it.

    For whoever doubted the photos, I saw the video early on and thought she was shot in the head because her eyes were diverted to her right. There is a saying in neurology; “The patient looks at her lesion,” meaning diversion of gaze suggests a brain injury. In this case, I believe it was just anoxia as her heart had stopped when it was hit. I have no doubt that video is authentic.

    The story I had was she was shot by a basiji riding by on a motorbike. He probably chose her because she was a pretty girl. Those guys are sick, seriously sick.

    MIke K (2cf494)

  34. “The U.S. must not meddle in the internal politics of Iran.”

    Spare me. The Iranians have been meddling in other nation’s internal politics for years.

    “Iran’s relations with many of its Arab neighbors have been strained by Iranian attempts to spread its Islamic revolution, a strictly ideological goal. In 1981, Iran supported a plot to overthrow the Bahrain Government. In 1983, Iran expressed support for Shi’ites who bombed Western embassies in Kuwait, and in 1987, Iranian pilgrims rioted during the hajj (pilgrimage) in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. Egypt mistrusts Iran because of support of Egyptian Sunni fundamentalists. Iran backs Hezbollah (in Lebanon), Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, all of which are violently opposed to the Arab-Israeli peace process.”–U.S. Dept. of State 03/08

    Hey, if they can attack American embassies, help terrorists kill people in Lebanon and Israel, incite assassins to kill people residing in western nations for insulting the prophet, then we damned sure can meddle in their internal politics.

    And, we better start doing so before they get atomic weapons.

    Dave Surls (28518b)

  35. #26,#31#33- Deal with it. Because the clerics will use that kind of incident in the U.S. among others as part of their rhetoric. And FYI, I attribute the quote to CBS News correspondent Ike Pappas’ transcript of from Cronkite’s 1970 book, ‘Eye On The World.’

    The conservative mind set is oddly tone deaf to the nationalistic fervor held dear by peoples good and bad in other nations for their homelands. And of their perceptions, good or bad as well, of the United States and how it is seen from those lands. America’s own internal management of political and religious disputes in the recent or distant past makes for easy rhetoric for the ‘shaky’ clerics clinging to a deterorating power base in Iran.

    Last Friday, during his droning speech, The ‘Supreme’ Leader (I prefer ‘Fearless’) made mention of the Koresh incident in Waco as fodder against the two-faced Great Satan. Ancient history and a footnote to Americans but well remembered by suspicious zealots in other regions.

    For America to overtly inject itself into Iranian politics again and urge them to ‘do like we say, not like we do– or did,’ would be disasterous. The majority in Washington agree, including more mature, seasoned conservatives like Noonan, Will and Kissinger. Inervention of any kind would set back reform for another generation. Better for the United States to observe, with the rest of the world, in guarded vigilance than step into the middle of the mess and have all sides- and the world, tell Americans to butt out– again.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  36. Nico says that isn’t her passport photo, but w/e.
    So this is somehow Obama’s fault Neda was martyred?
    How low will you guys go?
    Its really going to kill you when O gets props for this, isn’t it?
    There will be pics of grateful Iranians shaking Obama’s hand and you will become even smaller and more irrelevent than you are now.

    “OK, let me see if I’ve got this right. Since Barack Obama has taken the presidential oath of office we have witnessed: a) Hezbollah lose a shoo-in election in Lebanon, b) Pakistan begin serious efforts to control the Taliban and al Qaeda elements inside its borders, c) Netanyahu of Israel mumble support about a two state solution and rethink settlements and, d) A major awakening of the Iranian citizenry against the heavy-handedness of the mullahs. What hasn’t changed? The simple-minded thuggery of the Right when it comes to foreign policy (and Grover Norquist, someone should gently remind him that it’s 2009, not 1989). They have long preferred a modified Teddy Roosevelt approach. Speak loudly and wail away with the biggest stick you can find. I don’t know if all this is the results of one speech in Cairo by the President but if it is I hope he gives a second, and soon,” – Carl Owen, Politico.

    Sukkz to be you.
    ;)

    wheeler's cat (0cf7e1)

  37. Look, Patterico….this is why Obama can’t do more.

    In essence, the United States had engaged in a massive covert operation designed to remove a democratically elected leader from power and reinstall an authoritarian monarch (a move which makes a mockery of our currently stated desire to “spread democracy” in the Middle East).

    This affair had several disastrous ramifications for the future of American-Iranian relations. First, the Shah, from that point forward, was viewed as a creature of America. Consequently, America became an accessory to his every oppressive act during the subsequent 26 years of his rule. Second, the American embassy in Tehran was permanently marked as a “nest of spies” in the eyes of the Iranian populace. And third, Iranian democracy was strangled in its crib.

    The next time the populace rose to overthrow the Shah (in the 1970s), they viewed America as their enemy and were cheering a leader who was significantly less democratic than Mossadeq. When rumors began circulating that the Americans were going to bring the Shah back via yet another covert operation, the Iranian mobs responded by seizing the US embassy in Tehran and holding its workers hostage.

    If Mossadeq’s regime had been permitted to continue, it is entirely possible that Iran could have evolved into an authentic democracy. American interventionism destroyed that opportunity and set the stage for many of the tragedies currently haunting the Middle East.

    If America is ever to have even remotely cordial relations with Iran, we must accept responsibility for the terrible effects of Operation Ajax and admit that we had no right to intervene in a controversy that was wholly the business of the Iranian people. That exploit was unworthy of the Land of Washington and Jefferson.

    While the American public often quickly forgets the interventions and mischievous actions of its government, our overseas victims seldom do. The current climate of international terrorism should prompt the American people to take a more active interest, since these transgressions often come back to haunt us in the most unexpected ways.

    wheeler's cat (0cf7e1)

  38. “The simple-minded thuggery of the Right when it comes to foreign policy…They have long preferred a modified Teddy Roosevelt approach. Speak loudly and wail away with the biggest stick you can find.”

    Right.

    Liberals got us into WWI, WWII, the Korean War and the Vietnam War (total: 600,000 Americans dead), killed over 100,000 civilians with one bomb at Hiroshima, and the last liberal regime we had bombed the Sudan, Serbia, Iraq and Afghanistan…but, we right wingers are the heavy-handed warmongers.

    Same old hogwash…different day.

    Dave Surls (752ecc)

  39. The sycophantic Sufi is back to her cut and paste tongue baths for Teh One and ASPCA is still taking a wait and see attitude. That whole Kent State / Koresh thing was rather bizarre. He prolly covered those during his stint at CBS.

    JD (1cc534)

  40. For those of you that are just getting your first taste of wheeler’s/nishi/Kate, it is just warming up. It is a self-proclaimed griefer and meme warrior. There are a handful of topics that make ut go all Beetlejuice, and once it settles in, it will insert its 7-8 memes into any thread. As you may have guessed, full-throated love of Teh One is one of its standard positions.

    JD (1cc534)

  41. The idea of having the Iranian diplomats over on the 4th of July is truly incredible, so much so that I have a hard time believing that Teh One would be so tone deaf and naïve to do something stupider than a sack of DSCSA’s.

    JD (1cc534)

  42. “Liberals got us into WWI, WWII, the Korean War and the Vietnam Wa”

    My understanding was that, at least with WWII, the other side, the very unliberal fascist side, had something to do with us getting into the war.

    “Spare me. The Iranians have been meddling in other nation’s internal politics for years.”

    And moussavi was part of it! And now Neda has washed away his sins.

    imdw (b4c7d5)

  43. There will be pics of grateful Iranians shaking Obama’s hand

    Drugs.

    Gerald A (138c50)

  44. When you have no CHARACTER, it all makes sense.

    10ksnooker (26027c)

  45. If anyone ought to be tried in the world court, it is Obama for being a silent accomplice to Neda’s Murder.

    PCD (02f8c1)

  46. This crisis presents an opportunity.

    The Emperor (09c9e3)

  47. Perhaps you can redeem yourself, but I doubt it.

    Not a chance in hell – just look at an earlier thread the same day, where Dggcrpp makes a claim that it, too, suffered the tragedy of Alzeihmer’s, all in the service of teh narrative. Sick, twisted, arsehole – I see no reason why this POS is still being given multiple opportunites after repeated outrages such as these.

    Dmac (f7884d)

  48. PCD – That is a touch hyperbolic, no?

    Dmac – ASPCA has “issues”

    JD (dfb69f)

  49. “If anyone ought to be tried in the world court, it is Obama for being a silent accomplice to Neda’s Murder.”

    Niiice commentariat Patterico. I don’t think the Party of Crazy is going to take back the white house anytime soon.
    Just watch, Obama is going to get all the props, and you clowns will be left wailing and gnashing your teeth in the wilderness.

    wheeler's cat (0cf7e1)

  50. Dmac, sadly, I concur but that makes me a warmonger so I hereby denounce myself.

    GM Roper (85dcd7)

  51. One more thing…she wasn’t a “philosophy student”…..she was an islamic philosophy student…..that means she was studying al-Islam at university. Can’t quite bring yourself to acknowledge the poor dead girl was a MUSLIM can you Patterico? You weep showy crocodile tears and go wilin’ out blaming Obama for her death??????
    You do sukk.

    wheeler's cat (0cf7e1)

  52. #50: another post, another hairball.

    somebody call animal control……

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  53. time to invade and end the charade

    EricPWJohnson (59f7ef)

  54. Wheeler’s Cat,

    Do you have some kind of evidence that she was studying only Islamic philosophy… whatever that means?

    As an Iranian with a philosophy degree myself, I know that Iranians study Plato, Aquinas, and even some continental philosophy. Especially in Tehran, where many Iranians are only Muslims in the way John Kerry is Catholic.

    Juan (2ed445)

  55. Juan, I attempted to make a similar point regarding Iranians and their Muslim heritage/practices about a week ago, but you’re attempting to argue with someone who’s only interested in continuing the internal dialogue within her own cranium. Good luck with that.

    Dmac (f7884d)

  56. Can’t quite bring yourself to acknowledge the poor dead girl was a MUSLIM can you Patterico? You weep showy crocodile tears and go wilin’ out blaming Obama for her death??????
    Comment by wheeler’s cat — 6/23/2009 @ 7:10 am

    I cant see any evidence here that our host, Patterico has blamed Obama or anyone for Neda’s death. I would be careful how I make comments about our host. He has been nothing but a complete gentleman. Cant say that for everyone else, though. (including myself. :) ) A retraction would be appropriate.

    The Emperor (09c9e3)

  57. PWI, of course…

    Eric Blair (eef042)

  58. Also, Wheeler’s Cat, I think Patterico is not blaming Obama for this murder. It’s shameful that we’re not going to be part of the solution and that we are giving any legitimacy to the thugs in Iran, and I think it’s fair to wonder just how much Bush could have accomplished in Iran had the democrats let politics stop at the water’s edge for the past decade.

    But Patterico isn’t blaming Obama for the murder and I seriously doubt he is trying to hide the fact that nearly everyone in Iran is a Muslim in the way a 1490s Spaniard was a Catholic. It’s not mentioned because it’s not newsworthy.

    We liberals and conservatives need to set aside our differences when it comes to basic human rights like not being shot by your government for standing on the side of the road. Please take your vitriol and hatred of Republicans to a different thread.

    Juan (2ed445)

  59. Juan, it’s useless. wheeler’s cat is a computer program that spits out diatribes marginally related to the topic whenever it is turned on. There is no debate, just spam.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  60. PWI, of course…

    Comment by Eric Blair — 6/23/2009 @ 7:44 am

    “PWI”? What’s that?

    The Emperor (09c9e3)

  61. We are part of the solution and we are not giving legitimacy to thugs.
    Obama is doing exactly the right thing.

    For the United States, the watchwords should be: Do no harm. The situation in Iran is being exploited for short-term domestic political purposes by those who have been looking for an opening to attack the Obama administration. Wouldn’t it feel good to give full-throated expression to American opposition to the existing power structure in Iran? Perhaps so—but it could also be a fatal blow to the demonstrators risking their lives on the streets of Tehran and it could scotch any chance of eventual negotiations with whatever government emerges from this trial by fire.
    The crisis in Iran is an Iranian crisis and it can only be resolved by the Iranian people and their leaders. There is no need to conceal our belief in freedom of speech and assembly and our support for the resolution of political disputes without bloodshed. But we should not be stampeded by domestic political concerns into pretending that our intervention in this crisis could be anything but pernicious.
    Can President Obama play chess as well as he plays basketball?

    Juan you know very well what studying Islamic philosophy means. Quit weasel wording.
    Patterico left the word Islamic out of his LAT quote.
    Why?

    wheeler's cat (0cf7e1)

  62. This crisis presents an opportunity.

    best line of the thread so far

    I am afraid that I agree that Bay Doc Obama can’t really say or do much publicly. If he does, the mad mullahs will generate a divine wind of hot air denouncing America’s renewed interference in their national politics. That could be enough to erode support for the students to a point below critical mass … the results for their movement would be bad as could the results for them personally.

    Having said that, I wonder what is going on behind the curtain. Does Mr. Wizard have anything up his sleeves, or does he eschew the role of the back door man?

    hot dogs on the 4th with the mad mullahs lap dogs? Big mistake.

    quasimodo (4af144)

  63. What? They’re inviting Iranians to a barbecue? Are Iranians allowed by Islam to eat ribs in the first place?

    Start the impeachment proceedings now. This administration is so over.

    Official Internet Data Office (23dc56)

  64. Check out this gem, the White House now claims that Obama’s Cairo speech prompted the protests in Iran!

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/23/white-house-cairo-speech-inspired-the-iran-uprising/

    Now how will Andrew Sullivan (self appointed White House apologist) justify Obama’s silence on Iran, when the White House is claiming they inspired the whole dissent process in Iran?

    Somehow love will find a way.

    Andrew Sullivan is to Barack Obama as Kathryn Jean Lopez is to Mitt Romney. The only difference is K-Lo is less fauning and less of a 12 year old girl with a crush.

    Joe (17aeff)

  65. And watch….Obama is speaking directly to Iranian reporters and following day by day with an appropriate response.
    When he speaks today he will come out against violence against citizens, but not allow any openings for Khameni to use the US as a foil or a distraction or a scapegoat.

    wheeler's cat (0cf7e1)

  66. Juan,

    About nishi. She’s a _____________. She claims Sufism. You mentioned you were Iranian. If you grew up with Nazreddin Hodja stories like I did, you can find how full of ____ she is in a second.

    nk (7cc6e1)

  67. Hey!
    Patterico, why aren’t you raggin’ on Palin for not gettin’ out there and making a McCain style crazypants statement?
    She hasn’t said anything.
    ;)

    wheeler's cat (0cf7e1)

  68. Emperor, “PWI” was not directed toward you. More toward the flurry of wheeler’s cat crazies, such as #50. The delay in posting is an issue.

    “PWI” is a variant of “DWI.”

    Eric Blair (521cac)

  69. Joe, #63…

    That was a great tag-line for the MSM as it becomes clearer and clearer that the President is a Chicago pol without much experience.

    “Love will find a way.”

    Yep. It explains a great deal about the MSM.

    Eric Blair (521cac)

  70. I see Wheeler’s Cat is still incoherently praising Barack “I have in my hands, peace in our time” Obama.

    SPQR (72771e)

  71. I wonder if this will satisfy Patterico.

    wheeler's cat (0cf7e1)

  72. Deranged nutbag says what?

    Dmac (f7884d)

  73. Oh look Obama is now reversing course. Good for him.
    A little late, but better than never.

    Joe (17aeff)

  74. 47, JD, not if you use the ethics criteria and Morality of the Left. I still see idiots around Dubuque with “Try, Convict, and Execute Bush and Cheney” bumper stickers.

    PCD (02f8c1)

  75. nk, it is not your fault, I forgive you.
    Like one of my shayyks often says…..
    Man cannot acquire what he cannot use.
    ;)

    wheeler's cat (0cf7e1)

  76. Joe, you’re right, it’s good that Obama is following John Mccain’s leadership on this.

    It’s a shame Obama is not a leader, but I am grateful for whatever we can get out of him that helps Iran fight against its government. We need much more, and we needed it a week ago, but I will happily support Obama if he means to encourage democracy in Iran.

    Wheeler’s Cat, I asked for some kind of evidence for what you meant about her studies. I honestly think she was studying various philosophy, but I honestly don’t mind if she was only studying Islamic philosophers… I’m sure that kind of brainwashing is exactly what she was protesting. After all… she was at the protest and her family notes she was not supporting either candidate, but rather freedom.

    If you’ve got some kind of report on the stuff she was reading and writing, I would sincerely love to learn more about this person. Even if she was a devout Muslim, I would honor her memory. My grandmother just died in Iran (naturally), and she and most of my family abroad are Muslims.

    Juan (2ed445)

  77. What difference does it make what she studied? Is Wheeler’s cat suggesting ‘the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim’?

    The very idea of government-backed snipers randomly picking off peaceful protesters is chilling. I hope the Iranian people overthrow and replace their tyrannical government with something better. But that looks like a long shot right now.

    It’s wrong to blame Obama for her death. And the US has to be careful not to meddle in this dispute. But Obama needs to realize that sitting down at the table with the current government is rubbing shoulders with the worst kind of Mafia.

    Doug King (713ca3)

  78. The Fourth of July barbecue thing is far, far worse than Obama’s lassitude in mentioning the protests. I can’t believe he that dense as to sit down with enemies as they are killing their citizens. Scowcroft drank with the Chinese after Tienanmen Square but that was roundly condemned for years after. At least it wasn’t Bush.

    MIke K (2cf494)

  79. Nuance, Mike K. Nuance.

    JD (93cafe)

  80. This will be one of those defining moments of Obama’s presidency. On one hand he cant be seen to be meddling with Iranian politics. Something the Iranian establishment wants him to do. They want it so that they can use it in their propaganda against the opposition. Hence making matters worse for the cause of democracy there. On the other hand, he can’t sit still and just “observe”. It will make him seem weak and indecisive and inept. Something his political rivals are using to attack him now. He is in a dilemma. Herein lies the true test of a great President. How he handles this will tell.

    The Emperor (22bda5)

  81. nk, it is not your fault, I forgive you.
    Like one of my shayyks often says…..
    Man cannot acquire what he cannot use.

    Comment by wheeler’s cat — 6/23/2009 @ 9:04 am

    I don’t know that you’re doing the right thing. How many times can a person deal mercy instead of justice without endangering his immortal soul according to Sufism?

    nk (7cc6e1)

  82. Dude, if Neda was studying Western philosophy at university her family would have told the LAT reporter that.
    They said….she was studying ISLAMIC philosophy.
    And Patterico left right out of his quote.
    Why?
    Why is it so important for the rightside to cast the greens as revolting against the Islamic republic?
    They are reformers, and they are Shi’ia.
    Neda died in her chadoor.
    She covered.
    The power of Shi’ia Islam is why the Green Wave will succeed.
    The Shi’ia survived the Umayydd Caliphate after the martyrdom of Imam Ali. Religious non-violent protest is how the tyrant Shah was overthrown. The nightime rooftop chanting of Allahu Akbar is the exact same technique.
    Neda is a martyr, like Ali.
    Patterico slurs her memory by refusing to acknowledge her faith.

    wheeler's cat (0cf7e1)

  83. The idea that the 4th of July barbeque is still going to happen disgusts me.

    The 4th of July is OUR day, celebrates independence and freedom. I hope Obama has better sense, but I doubt it. It will seriously anger lots of Americans for the POTUS to celebrate the 4th with representatives of a repressive killer regime.

    His parade will include unicorns, and the band will play “Kumbaya” instead of “The Star-Spangled Banner”. Gag.

    jodetoad (617c49)

  84. Your “shayyks” might do well to remind you of this:

    “”Allah is with those who restrain themselves.” [16: 128]“

    The frightening part is that you might be.

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  85. Hot Air reports Mousavi was behind the Beruit Marine Baracks bombing. Mousavi is part of the Iranian Mullah regime. I assume he was in on Iranian crimes and terrorist acts just like most of the senior members of the Iranian government were in on such crimes and terrorist acts. So there was some element of truth that there is not that much difference between Mousavi and Ahmadinejad on underlying philosophy. Whether Mousavi refutes that radical past remains to be seen. I am not sure that is the case or not. My guess he is less radical than Ahmadinejad and what is interesting is the Mullahs, by doing this, have pushed Mousavi to be even less extremist. That might prove to be a good thing in the long run.

    The better analogy (granted it is a very rough one) might be Mousavi is the Gorbachev of this change, and the Mullahs fear the Yeltsin that may follow. Both China and Iran saw what happened in Soviet Union when change was allowed to ferment.

    Still, the Iranian democracy and reform movement is far broader than Mousavi.

    Joe (dcebbd)

  86. Patterico certainly did not cut this out of his quote. He said that she used to study philosophy, which is true. She was not currently studying philosophy, Islamic or otherwise, but rather tourism and Turkish language. As for acknowledging her faith, she’s wearing a freaking chador – whaddaya think her faith is?

    carlitos (84409d)

  87. redc1c4 — Gandhi would agree with you that submission is cowardice. The form of non-violence he taught has been co-opted and corrupted by the cowards into something that he denounced even while he was alive.

    Did you even read the quote I posted?

    Better far than cowardice is killing and being killed in battle.

    I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence.

    Nonviolence is not a cover for cowardice, but it is the supreme virtue of the brave. Exercise of nonviolence requires far greater bravery than that of swordsmanship. Cowardice is wholly inconsistent with nonviolence. Translation from swordsmanship to nonviolence is possible and, at times, even an easy stage. Nonviolence, therefore, presupposes ability to strike. It is a conscious deliberate restraint put upon one’s desire for vengeance. But vengeance is any day superior to passive, effeminate and helpless submission.

    I urge you to get a copy of Gandhi’s All Men Are Brothers (or read it at the link); chapter 6 talks about non-violence. If you want an image of proper ahimsa, think of the man facing down the tanks at Tienanmen Square, not of those running away.

    htom (412a17)

  88. Mousavi is neither the catalyst nor the leader of this movement.
    Much like the Republicans are neither the leaders nor the catalysts behind the Tea Party Movement.
    The Iranians (or at least a very large number of Iranians) want change – they want a new government and are using the example of their election process as the focal point illustrating what is wrong.

    Obama (and many of his supporters) don’t recognize the difference between acknowledging human rights (to march and assemble) versus taking sides (wishing one candidate or another will win). The President should have spoken on day one about the importance of free elections and Iranian citizens’ rights to protest. He has dropped the ball again.

    Corwin (ea9428)

  89. Re that barbeque: does this mean other hostile nations typically not on the U.S. guest list, will also be included (North Korea, Mynnamar, Cuba, Sudan)?

    And if not, why not? Frankly, it would appear massively hypocritical and unbecomingly “selective”… If we open our arms to thugs in murderers in one country, why not all? I would think Obama would want to avoid any negative suggestions.

    Dana (8d88ef)

  90. In today’s speech, Obama may have implied that he thought the Iranian people brave, but he certainly made it clear that he did not stand with them, nor intended to do anything in support of them.

    Pretty pathetic for a speech that he was basically forced into making by events – events he’s still days if not weeks behind.

    SPQR (72771e)

  91. President Obama wisely noted in his press conference today that Iran and the United States have no formal diplomatic relations. Any informal interface over frankfurters and french fries honoring America’s independence presents the opportunity to be communicative by design and on the surface, benign. Still the conservative mind set remains obsessed with the sinister simplicity behind junk food diplomacy. No doubt the easist way to protest this perceived afront is to rally a tea party, pick up some green hot dogs from the Piggly-Wiggly bargain bin and whip up a batch of ‘Freedom Fries.’

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  92. Muhammed also said that a nation can exist without god, but a nation cannot exist without justice.
    Is this just?

    Trita Parsi, President of the National Iranian American Council, said: “Condemning violence is different from taking sides in Iran’s election dispute. People in Iran have told NIAC’s Iranian-American membership that they don’t want the US to get itself involved in the conflict, but they do want to see the government’s use of violence condemned… Calls by Republican lawmakers to explicitly side with a specific candidate or movement in Iran can be extremely harmful to that candidate or movement. If our intention is to help, we have to first listen to the people in Iran rather than to pretend to speak for them without ever having had consulted with them,” Parsi added.

    Is this just?

    “To put it as simply as possible, McCain–and his cohorts–are trying to score political points against the President in the midst of an international crisis. It is the sort of behavior that Republicans routinely call “unpatriotic” when Democrats are doing it. I would never question John McCain’s patriotism, no matter how misguided his sense of the country’s best interests sometimes seems. His behavior has nothing to do with love of country; it has everything to do with love of self,” – Joe Klein.

    Are you really so invested in seeing Obama fail that you want to doom the Green Wave by playing right into Khameni’s hands?

    wheeler's cat (0cf7e1)

  93. Take your meds, ASPCA.

    JD (e6edba)

  94. Then why did Patterico say she studied philosophy at all?
    Nope, I don’t buy it.
    I would be happy if Patterico edited his post and put islamic philosophy into the quote.
    ;)

    wheeler's cat (0cf7e1)

  95. The sycophantic Sufi is just being its normal Beetlejuice.

    JD (4cd453)

  96. #92- “To put it as simply as possible, McCain–and his cohorts–are trying to score political points against the President in the midst of an international crisis. It is the sort of behavior that Republicans routinely call “unpatriotic” when Democrats are doing it. I would never question John McCain’s patriotism, no matter how misguided his sense of the country’s best interests sometimes seems. His behavior has nothing to do with love of country; it has everything to do with love of self,” – Joe Klein.

    Totally just. And accurate.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  97. wheeler’s cat,

    It’s not a quote. It’s not inaccurate. It’s not the point of the post.

    Stashiu3 (ed6467)

  98. I would be happy if Patterico edited his post and put islamic philosophy into the quote.

    Comment by wheeler’s cat

    I would be happy if he edited his blog and edited you out of it. The wasted electrons are crying out for vengeance when we have this energy crisis coming.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  99. [...] Obama shows his solidarity with the Iranian protesters in the only way he knows how….eating a green slushy Italian ice.  Notice the resoluteness of his gaze (or is that just brain freeze?) and the symbolic touch of cherry or strawberry red.  Patterico reminds us, vividly, of what this is all about. [...]

    Amused Cynic » Blog Archive » The Cone of Silence….Obama’s Soft-Serve foreign policy, with sprinkles on top… (691ade)

  100. President Obama wisely noted in his press conference today that Iran and the United States have no formal diplomatic relations.” Exactly why this is the wrong time to meet with them – while they are killing their own citizens; restricting their citizen’s rights; and attempting to cover-up an election nearly all recognize was fraught with illegalities. You don’t meet with such a delegation. That only helps to legitimize them. Their citizens hold up signs in English because they know some news is leaking out and they want and desire some acknowledgement of their plight. Hosting the leaders of this repression is exactly the wrong thing to do.

    Corwin (ea9428)

  101. At this point, by the reports I’m reading on Iranian sites (english ones), the crowds are shouting “Death to Khameni”. It isn’t about the right of self-determination anymore. This is about revolution.

    Wheeler’s Cat – Who the heck is denying that Neda was a Muslim? That’s just ridiculous. Don’t go all conspiracy theory about it. Provide the quote that states what she studied, specifically and move on. No where do I see Patterico attempting to portray Neda as anything other than an Iranian Muslim who was needlessly slaughtered during a protest on Saturday.

    The BBQ invite is just shameful, wretchedly so. Does he really think the awesome power of well cooked ribs is really going to affect a corrupt system full of despots?

    One last point: No one is asking Obama to take a side between one candidate or the other. The ELECTION was obviously fraudulent. THAT was what began the protests. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/22_06_09_chathamiran.pdf
    On Monday Obama could certainly have gotten out in front and condemned the fraud and called for fair elections without taking a side.

    Vivian Louise (eeeb3a)

  102. Joe Klein has the intellectual heft of a crack-addled gnat, DSCSA. Much like nishi.

    JD (28e6e6)

  103. Vivian Louise – You’re arguing with cultists. They have a master, they serve him every day, and they do not come here for debate.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  104. #89- Dana, Forty Julys ago amidst the tensions of the Cold War and less than a year after Russian tanks rolled into Czechoslovakia, when U.S-U.S.S.R. relations were severely strained, Soviet Ambassador Dobrynin was invited to the launch of Apollo 11 by the Nixon Administration. Was it wrong? Dispicable? Disrepectful to all anti-Soviet peoples fighting communism around the world? Of course not.

    Dobrynin declined. Not because he didn’t wish to attend, but because he knew the Soviets would be obligated to invite the U.S. to witness a Russian launch, which were at the time, secret. The question isn’t Americans sharing a few hot dogs on the 4th of July, but how Iranian representatives will respond.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  105. #101. The BBQ invite is just shameful, wretchedly so. Does he really think the awesome power of well cooked ribs is really going to affect a corrupt system full of despots?

    See #104. Then see if you can find the Soviet Union on a map these days.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  106. Corwin.you don’t get Obama’s point.
    We can’t recognize Nejad….we have no diplomtic relations with Iran.
    We ALREADY don’t recognize him.
    Obama is saying wait and see, and he will negotiate with who the iranian people decide on.
    That is ALL he can say, thanks to the history of neocon aggro meddling in MENA.

    wheeler's cat (0cf7e1)

  107. I have been to a couple of Embassy and consulate BBQ’s on Independence Day. Years ago, in college, I was able to go to the Velvet-Revolution-era Prague embassy for a hot dog and a beer on July 4. It’s a pretty special feeling, being on US soil in a foreign land, with some traveling college choir singing patriotic songs. Seeing the locals wonder why we were blowing off fireworks on the River Clyde in Glasgow was probably the coolest I’ve seen.

    carlitos (84409d)

  108. Of course, we were blowing off neocon aggro fireworks.

    carlitos (84409d)

  109. Mmmmm…well-cooked ribs….arghararhargharharrrr…

    Kev (de6e3f)

  110. #83- The idea that the 4th of July barbeque is still going to happen disgusts me. The 4th of July is OUR day, celebrates independence and freedom. There’s that conservative bent for privatization of everything rearing its ugly head again. The language and spirit read in all our freedom documents, including the Declaration of Independence, are for everyone. As to Barack’s Barbaric BBQ, see #104.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  111. What a fucking imbecile. Truly, ASPCA. You are remarkable.

    JD (0d1f38)

  112. JD, he is a fool and does not get any of the sentiments being expressed about the incredible July 4 story. Among other things, idiot, we were not at war with the Soviet Union.

    Of course, maybe this is a clever plot by Obama to seize those Iranian diplomats who attend and hold them hostage.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  113. #114- Among other things, idiot, we were not at war with the Soviet Union.

    Speak for yourself. Perhaps you should revise your conservative talking points with regards to Reagan singularly winning the ‘Cold War’– a 50 year ‘war’, it seems, you now bluster did not exist– at least to you.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  114. #112- Among other things, idiot, we were not at war with the Soviet Union.

    Speak for yourself. Perhaps you should revise your conservative talking points with regards to Reagan singularly winning the ‘Cold War’– a 50 year ‘war’, it seems, you now bluster did not exist– at least to you.

    Sorry, #113 was an error.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  115. So was #114, DCSCA, where you play some sort of offensively stupid redefinition game.

    SPQR (72771e)

  116. The cold war is a metaphor… it wasn’t a war. This isn’t complicated.

    I really would love this blog, but the trolls are so persistently dense here, and the threads usually become about disabusing ridiculous accusations and claims from people who obviously only intend to screw with the discussion.

    This blog is still worth reading, but I think my patience for the comments is still a bit lacking. My apologies for being whiny.

    at any rate, I’m glad Obama finally said something of importance on this. A shame that Mccain doing so first is interpreted as some kind of bad thing by liberals in this thread.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  117. DCSCA, I see that instead of answering my question, Re that barbeque: does this mean other hostile nations typically not on the U.S. guest list, will also be included (North Korea, Mynnamar, Cuba, Sudan)? Wouldn’t it be hypocritical to not invite them as well?, you attempted to make an equivalency with U.S.S.R.- U.S. 4th of July and the Iran – U.S. barbeque to justify this invitation. Please take a moment to answer the question(s) I first asked.

    Comment by carlitos — 6/23/2009 @ 1:13 pm

    Thank you for sharing that. What an amazing memory to have, and certainly it must be something to have been on that American soil in a foreign land on such a special day.

    Dana (8d88ef)

  118. “To put it as simply as possible, McCain–and his cohorts–are trying to score political points against the President…”–Joe Klein, professional propagandist for the Demscum

    To put it as simply as possible Barack Obama is Neville Chamberlin on steroids, and he and his policies of appeasement ought to be opposed 24/7.

    Good for John McCain, and any Republicans who are attacking the Appeaser-in-Chief.

    Dave Surls (0a3f1e)

  119. Thanks Dana, and I did post at 1:13, but not what you said there. Channeling my inner Charles Barkley, I was misquoted!

    carlitos (84409d)

  120. Oh Carlitos, my first comment at 3:09 p.m. was in response to DCSCA — 6/23/2009 @ 1:01 pm, the second part of my comment was in response to your 3:16 p.m. Sorry for the confusion.

    Dana (8d88ef)

  121. #117- Dana, it’s a form of diplomacy. Each situation is different. The invitation by the U.S. is not the issue. The response by the Iranians is. Recall ‘ping-pong’ diplomacy in the early 70′s between the United States and the evil, terrible, Red Chinese communists. Try not ot focus on the subtle diplomacy of the invite, but the politics of how they respond.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  122. [...] and various other metaphorical appendages planted squarely on the metaphorical throats of the very real people. And while I think he’s dim, I don’t think he’s quite that dim. Which just makes [...]

    Anwyn’s Notes in the Margin » One Wonders How He Really Feels about the Revolutionary War (e8be5d)

  123. “The invitation by the U.S. is not the issue.”

    It isn’t an issue for terrorist-loving, anti-semitic, anti-American, left wing scumbags who want to crawl on their bellies in order to appease the mad mullahs.

    It is an issue for decent people.

    Dave Surls (0a3f1e)

  124. #116- The cold war is a metaphor… it wasn’t a war. This isn’t complicated. Hmmmm. You’d most likely get some disagreement on your assertion from the likes of Barry Goldwater, William F. Buckley, Dick Cheney, Henry Kissinger, John Foster Dulles, Robert MacNamara, Dean Rusk, Curt LeMay, George H. W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, Richard Nixon, Dwight Eisenhower, Harry Truman, John F. Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson and Jimmy Carter, pretty much all the men and women who served in the U.S. Armed Forces between 1945 and 1995 as well as the State Department, the diplomatic corp, NATO, the military industrial complex, and the people of Eastern Europe, the citizens of Berlin and Germany and the American people of the Cold War era.

    But then, you know better, don’t you.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  125. The ASPCA tsunami of stoooopid continues apace.

    JD (506f9c)

  126. He still doesn’t get it. Why didn’t you ask them when they were hanging around your dorm room, Walter ?

    Tapocketa, tapocketa, tapocketa.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  127. DCSCA, once again, your habit of posting something stupid and ignorant ( like claiming an equivalence between “war” and “The Cold War” ) is not improved by your practice of doubling down on your stupidity.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  128. “Try not ot focus on the subtle diplomacy of the invite, but the politics of how they respond.”

    What was subtle about the invitation nimrod?

    The comparison of this to an invitation to Russians to watch a rocket launch, a country with whom we maintained diplomatic relations, just illustrates the continuing absurdity of your comments and intellectual dishonesty and lack of depth of your thinking. Back to the wrinkle room, pops.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  129. I s’pose we could have had the Japanese diplomats over for New Years Eve,1942 before we sent them home. Maybe we could have served sushi.

    MIke K (2cf494)

  130. Mike K – If the Iranians are invited, shouldn’t Obama invite their proxies from Hamas and Hezbollah as well? After all, Obama believes, deep thinker that he is, solving the Israel/Palestine problem is the only obstacle to permanent peace in the Middle East.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  131. #126- Keep working on that bedside manner, Doc. You’ll get it right someday.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  132. #118- “To put it as simply as possible, McCain–and his cohorts–are trying to score political points against the President…”–Joe Klein, professional propagandist for the Demscum

    Hmmm. Klein is also the author of ‘Primary Colors,’ a less than flattering bestseller loosely based on the Clinton Presidential campaign. A Democrat.

    To put it as simply as possible Barack Obama is Neville Chamberlin on steroids, and he and his policies of appeasement ought to be opposed 24/7.
    Good for John McCain, and any Republicans who are attacking the Appeaser-in-Chief.

    The weather must have finally cleared in Washington. No clouds to yell at. Every time McCain opens his mouth, he reaffirms why the electorate rejected him last November.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  133. “It isn’t an issue for terrorist-loving, anti-semitic, anti-American, left wing scumbags who want to crawl on their bellies in order to appease the mad mullahs.”

    You mean like moussavi?

    imdw (eb5474)

  134. “pretty much all the men and women who served in the U.S. Armed Forces between 1945 and 1995″

    DCSCA – I don’t recall you claiming any military service here. What was your excuse?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  135. He forgot. After all, with such a busy life and all those accomplishments, things can slip you mind.

    MIke K (2cf494)

  136. “You mean like moussavi?”

    Very much like Mousavi, except unlike our Appeaser-in-Chief, Mousavi is currently defying the Iranian government instead of fawning at its feet.

    Dave Surls (0a3f1e)

  137. Comment by DCSCA — 6/23/2009 @ 3:48 pm

    Again, you have not answered my question but instead, attempted to instruct me as to where you believe my focus should be.

    I disagree strongly that the invitation itself is not important. Consider the message it sends to the protesters who are still facing assault, arrest and trial for their resistance to oppression, and quite possibly death for their heroic actions. Will seeing the United States extend an ‘olive branch’ encourage them in their fight, will it reassure them of our support or will be appear hypocritical, weak, and an appeasement to the very ones that are killing them?

    What message does it send to our allies and enemies in the world at large? Here we are, the Great Satan,, and we invite this enemy onto our soil to celebrate our Independence Day? Does Obama believe they will love the barbequed burgers so much they’ll want democracy too? Or they will be so inspired by our struggle with the British (whom they also loathe), that they will open their prison doors and set their captives free? Or do you believe Obama sees himself as the one to bridge the gulf between our nations and bring healing and harmony between us? Because if you actually believe any of these things….

    The invitation itself matters greatly. Screw nuance. Americans are watching. The world is watching. We all waited and watched for more than one week. Our president is now a known quantity. And this is further proof.

    We cannot give legitimacy to any nation that supports terror and propagates terror, and determines to annihilate any sovereign nation like Israel, vowing they have no right to even exist. We cannot esteem in any way those who are more than willing to kill their own to maintain control. We have seen clearly that they do not value the lives of their citizens but value only their own wealth, power, and corruption. And you want to invite them for lunch.

    So, answer my question: Should we then invite China, North Korea (after they’re done bombing Hawaii, of course), Sudan, Robert Mugabe maybe, how about Castro, and what do you think about including Omar Hassan Ahmad al-Bashir (he probably doesn’t get out much)….???

    Dana (8d88ef)

  138. Dana, I’m going to start calling you Sissyphus if you keep trying to engage in actual sentient dialogue with the resident nutbag/serial fabulist. It’s a chore only for the most patient among us here.

    Dmac (f7884d)

  139. #137- Dana, your question: Re that barbeque: does this mean other hostile nations typically not on the U.S. guest list, will also be included (North Korea, Mynnamar, Cuba, Sudan)? Wouldn’t it be hypocritical to not invite them as well?,

    It appears the protocol and diplomatic courtesy of extending an invitation in honor of American independence, and employing it as a cover for informal contact is something you won’t accept. So be it. It’s a form- a method- of low level diplomatic communication. You have no idea what kind of information an interface this casual may spawn. Or what will be exchanged, if the Iranians accept at all. The point is not the invite, but how the invitation is responded to.

    What message does it send to our allies and enemies in the world at large? Here we are, the Great Satan,, and we invite this enemy onto our soil to celebrate our Independence Day?

    Yes. Mature superpowers that could obliterate Iran and vaporize its people in 30 minutes do that.

    The invitation itself matters greatly. Screw nuance. Americans are watching. Screw nuance? Ahhhh. Bring it on. Cowboy Diplomacy. Yes, Americans are watching. The vast majority, with approval.

    The United States rejected that kind of in-your-face diplomacy last November for a more subtle, tactful, Obama-styled approach. Or in more blunt, conservative terms: “We won.”

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  140. Yep, a “more subtle, tactful, Obama-styled approach” … which Iran, North Korea, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc., already have shown has obviously failed. Or was having women shot on the streets of Tehran, the goal of the Empty Suit(tm) ?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  141. Comment by DCSCA — 6/23/2009 @ 7:39 pm

    Still pushing that big rock uphill, and again you do not answer the question: Should we then invite China, North Korea (after they’re done bombing Hawaii, of course), Sudan, Robert Mugabe maybe, how about Castro, and what do you think about including Omar Hassan Ahmad al-Bashir (he probably doesn’t get out much)….???

    Talk about an opportunity for massive informal contact. President Obama – the host with the most!

    Point made.

    Dana (8d88ef)

  142. #141- It was answered. You’re just not accepting it. Or cannot comprehend it. ‘Screw nuance’ says it all. I don’t think a position with thr State Department is in your future.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  143. “Americans are watching. The vast majority, with approval.”

    DCSCA – Let’s have some support for that statement, nimrod. I think it’s a complete asspull. The House voted 400-1 to condemn Iran before Obama deigned to switch positions after feeling the heat from that resolution, McCain and other world leaders. He’s following once again, just as he did on Georgia last summer.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  144. “You have no idea what kind of information an interface this casual may spawn.”

    Dana – You are probably not aware that DCSCA performed with a carnival when he was younger. He was JoJo the Dog Face Boy, but in between shows he appeared on the midway as a mind reader. He tries to use those skills on this blog to divine what others know as in the example above. As with most things, he’s a dismal failure.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  145. DCSCA, here is an exercise for you. You claimed you “answered” Dana’s question. I am going to post your reply in full. Please select the words from your response that “answer” the question. Please, other posters, feel free to play along. Note that Dana’s words are helpfully in italics. I am at a loss for where the question was “answered” but I expect nothing less from a liar and fabulist.

    - – - —

    #137- Dana, your question: Re that barbeque: does this mean other hostile nations typically not on the U.S. guest list, will also be included (North Korea, Mynnamar, Cuba, Sudan)? Wouldn’t it be hypocritical to not invite them as well?,

    It appears the protocol and diplomatic courtesy of extending an invitation in honor of American independence, and employing it as a cover for informal contact is something you won’t accept. So be it. It’s a form- a method- of low level diplomatic communication. You have no idea what kind of information an interface this casual may spawn. Or what will be exchanged, if the Iranians accept at all. The point is not the invite, but how the invitation is responded to.

    What message does it send to our allies and enemies in the world at large? Here we are, the Great Satan,, and we invite this enemy onto our soil to celebrate our Independence Day?

    Yes. Mature superpowers that could obliterate Iran and vaporize its people in 30 minutes do that.

    The invitation itself matters greatly. Screw nuance. Americans are watching. Screw nuance? Ahhhh. Bring it on. Cowboy Diplomacy. Yes, Americans are watching. The vast majority, with approval.

    The United States rejected that kind of in-your-face diplomacy last November for a more subtle, tactful, Obama-styled approach. Or in more blunt, conservative terms: “We won.”

    carlitos (84409d)

  146. Seeing as though Teh One was practically the last person on the planet to become deeply troubled by Iran’s actions, wasn’t he Teh One doing cowboy diplomacy?

    JD (3b62be)

  147. “Ahhhh. Bring it on. Cowboy Diplomacy. Yes, Americans are watching. The vast majority, with approval.”

    Not as much as they approved of George Bush’s “cowboy diplomacy” after 9/11/01.

    On 9/22/01 Bush’s approval rating was at 90%, the highest approval rating ever recorded by the Gallup organization.

    How’s your man, Obama doing? Is he getting 90% approval ratings for kissing Iranian ass?

    Don’t think so.

    Here’s George Bush’s approval rating for June 11-17, 2001: 55%

    About the same as your New Messiah’s numbers, as of June 2009. Obama’s poll numbers aren’t anything special. Pretty much all presidents get those kind of numbers during their first few months in office.

    Don’t know how significant all that is, but I do know that kissing ass doesn’t meet with nearly as much approval as kicking ass does.

    Dave Surls (0a3f1e)

  148. #147- A nation rallying around their new president in a time of crisis. Imagine that. THey learned the hard way. Wonderful press clippings from a decade ago, too. What have you done lately– say November, 2008? Oh, that’s right… you lost.

    We won.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  149. #147- Don’t know how significant all that is, but I do know that kissing ass doesn’t meet with nearly as much approval as kicking ass does.

    Hmmm. Well then the electorate- and you– must surely be beaming with approval as you had your ‘ass kicked’ in November, 2008 when ‘Cowboy Diplomacy’ was rejected. We won.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  150. Hmmm. Well then the electorate- and you– must surely be beaming with approval as you had your ‘ass kicked’ in November, 2008 when ‘Cowboy Diplomacy’ was rejected. We won.

    Comment by DCSCA — 6/24/2009 @ 1:21 am

    You know, that sounded childish when Barack Obama said it, and sir, you are no Barack Obama.

    Grow up.

    Dr. K (eca563)

  151. “Here we are, the Great Satan,, and we invite this enemy onto our soil to celebrate our Independence Day?”

    Totally. Ronnie never let any commies into our country.

    imdw (b4c7d5)

  152. “We won.”

    That’s cool. The Cowboy Diplomacy Party wins more presidential elections than the Craven Coward Party does, so most of the time we’re running the show.

    We don’t have to win every election to do things like invade Iraq and destroy the Baathists. It only takes one election win to do that.

    You can protect guys like the Baathists or the mad mullahs over the short haul, but we only have to smash them into oblivion once…and then it’s game over.

    So, no matter how you slice it, in the long run…you lose.

    Dave Surls (2ef2ec)

  153. This conflict in Iran won’t be won or lost by Obama. It is not about us. He can inflame the lunatic factions over there with foolish action, creating many more Nedas in the process, but that’s about the extent of the US’s influence.

    That said, inviting the Iranian regime to a BBQ is patently ludicrous. If the left is playing some sort of game, they’d better win it big for their sakes.

    For all of our sakes, I hope we can get real leaders in the next election.

    Harvey M Anderson (a664fb)

  154. DCSCA, this morning Michael Rubin drives home much more fully and eloquently the point I was attempting to make yesterday with my still unanswered question (#89, 117, 137,141). Perhaps it will bring clarity,

    President Obama is continuing plans to have Iranian diplomats — representatives of a regime that continues to imprison and kill peaceful protestors — celebrate July 4th, a holiday marking liberty and freedom, at U.S. embassies around the world.

    What’s next?

    Inviting North Korean officials to share cake at a celebration commemorating the Non-Proliferation Treaty? Perhaps inviting the Taliban to a festival celebrating International Women’s Day? Maybe we can even invite Zimbabwe to party with the Department of Agriculture, or have Libyan diplomats as guests of honor at a commemoration of human rights?

    The White House and the State Department seem completely blind to the optics of this, something strange given the president’s campaigning acumen. It is also a dagger in the heart of the imagery of hope and change which the Obama White House hopes to convey. President Obama, there’s always next year. This is not neutrality; it is diplomatic malpractice and an insult to the Iranian people who are watching you so intently right now.

    Dana (8d88ef)

  155. Dana, you go girl!

    The Obama apologists are stuck on one setting.

    Vivian Louise (eeeb3a)

  156. [...] Patterico’s Pontifications » L.A. Times Confirms Details Re Neda September 17th, 2009 We Are Neda Leave a comment Go to comments Patterico’s Pontifications » L.A. Times Confirms Details Re Neda [...]

    Neda of Iran! The Voice of Iran Speaks Today in the Streets » Patterico’s Pontifications » L.A. Times Confirms Details Re Neda (1f7cab)


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