Patterico's Pontifications

5/17/2009

Obama at Notre Dame

Filed under: Abortion,Obama — DRJ @ 2:12 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

Although protesters were present, Barack Obama was given a courteous welcome at the Notre Dame commencement and he encouraged Americans to learn to disagree respectfully:

“Understand – I do not suggest that the debate surrounding abortion can or should go away. No matter how much we may want to fudge it – indeed, while we know that the views of most Americans on the subject are complex and even contradictory – the fact is that at some level, the views of the two camps are irreconcilable. Each side will continue to make its case to the public with passion and conviction. But surely we can do so without reducing those with differing views to caricature.

Open hearts. Open minds. Fair-minded words.”

Obama shared an anecdote about correspondence he received during the Presidential campaign from a doctor who opposed abortion. Instead of asking Obama to change his position on abortion, the doctor encouraged Obama to approach the issue in a fair-minded way. Obama said he prayed he would extend the same presumption of good faith to others that the doctor had given him.

Obama also called on Americans to “make sure that all of our health care policies are grounded in clear ethics and sound science, as well as respect for the equality of women.”

The full transcript of Obama’s speech is here. Pre-speech media has focused on abortion but Obama also addressed the need for world peace and to find a way to “live together as one human family.” And in a light-hearted moment, he offered his services at next year’s Notre Dame basketball tournament that he described as the largest outdoor 5-on-5 basketball tournament in the world.

— DRJ

106 Responses to “Obama at Notre Dame”

  1. Obama shared an anecdote about correspondence he received during the Presidential campaign from a doctor who opposed abortion. Instead of asking Obama to change his position on abortion, the doctor encouraged Obama to approach the issue in a fair-minded way. Obama said he prayed he would extend the same presumption of good faith to others that the doctor had given him.

    I’m sure we’ve heard various editions of this same anecdote before.
    I have to say, I’d be bummed to have so much of my college commencement speech focused on abortion.
    I also have a negative reaction whenever Obama discusses his faith, because he chose to worship at Rev Wright’s church and palled around with Father Pfleger, but threw them both under the bus for his campaign.

    Overall, though. World Peace. One world family. Go get drunk.

    MayBee (c50b9d)

  2. Me, I’d like to own a slave or three. Hey, I realize that my position is, in the end, irreconcilable with the opponents of slavery, but surely people can address my desires with courtesy and understanding, right?

    The snarky Dana (474dfc)

  3. Video of protesters at the address

    DayTrader (ea6549)

  4. The Snarky Dana gets it.

    Vivian Louise (c0f830)

  5. Are they supposed to “extend the same presumption of good faith ” as they get in peoples faces.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  6. Obama can not truly speak of world peace while we contiuue to slaughter one million unborn Americans a year. Abortion kills and Obama supports it. Norma McCorvey, b/k/a Jane Roe does not.

    DavidL (02e14f)

  7. I think at a Catholic University, he would have been better off not giving his opinions on abortion at all.
    He could have addressed the fact that they are entering into a world with much diversity of opinion, and it will be to their advantage to work with those with whom they disagree. But specifically abortion? He shouldn’t have gone there.

    MayBee (c50b9d)

  8. That Notre Dame had someone so pro-abortion speak at the commencement, regardless of POTUS position, is indicative of ND’s slide toward humanism and away from the basic tenets of faith the university was founded upon. It seems every religious institution inevitably becomes watered down to appease and/or draw the bigger donors. Eventually their original identity fades and simply becomes a footnote in history.

    Dana (4a6e8c)

  9. Obama is all for dialogue and mutual respect, so long as no concession is made to anti-abortion forces. This is hardly better than the dialogue that Israel gets from Hamas.

    Glen Wishard (02562c)

  10. Another issue with Obama’s comments re abortion is: He doesn’t realize that for those of us who are pro-life, this issue can never be reconcilable and should never be so. There is no middle ground because that abortion always entails the death of a life. It’s easy for him to blather on about the reconciliation, etc., because it’s just a blob and always will be. Out of necessity.

    Dana (4a6e8c)

  11. The line about reading blogs that “claim definitive knowledge” is uniquely hilarious, considering his reliance on Andrew Sullivan’s erroneous claims about Churchill and torture.

    MayBee (c50b9d)

  12. Fr. Jenkins will pay the price for his stupidity. So far $13.5 million has been pulled in pledged donations by ND alum. And there is an alum group demanding the removal of Fr. Jenkins. Anyone who belongs to the alum of a university knows how powerful they can be. Just ask anyone active in the Texas-Ex’s.

    Obama should have kept his mouth shut about abortion, on that I agree. But there is something snarley about Obama and I think he enjoys the division he had created.

    And all this crap about “world peace” reminds me of the movie, Ms. Congeniality. No matter how stupid you are, when asked what your opinions are about an issue just say “world peace”.

    retire05 (7bdbd9)

  13. Dana,

    The Catholics aren’t nearly as confused as the Episcopalians (called Anglicans in the UK), the religion I was raised in. They can’t seem to figure out whether they’re atheists or not.

    DRJ (f55947)

  14. A little pulling of the Beard of the Great White-Bearded Legend is not all that bad a thing. And I say this as someone who was consecrated to the Virgin, went to catechism every Saturday, was an altar boy, and tolled the death knell for JFK.

    nk (a1896a)

  15. If he really wanted to prepare the students for the direction their lives would take, he should have told them that 95% of their future happiness will result from finding a good parking spot.

    Another Chris (a3bb8f)

  16. If it was anything like my college graduation, there were plenty of flasks getting passed around.

    Probably helped a lot.

    Techie (9c008e)

  17. Ear Leader is a lying scumbag, so it really doesn’t matter what he said at the speech.

    although if he’d told the students that they will be spending most of their lives trying to pay off his deficits from the next few federal budgets, that would actually be true.

    redc1c4 (9c4f4a)

  18. But surely we can do so without reducing those with differing views to caricature.

    Maybe he should have said that to Axelrod before his staffer called Carrie Prejean a dog.

    Hypocrisy you can smell.

    Evil Pundit (42e904)

  19. But surely we can do so without reducing those with differing views to caricature.

    I missed that speech in the Senate, to combat the BusHitler the Chimperor-in-Thief craze on his own side.

    Techie (9c008e)

  20. “make sure that all of our health care policies are grounded in clear ethics”

    As long as the ethics are not against abortion.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2009/02/27/obama-will-move-to-rescind-conscience-rule-on-abortion-birth-control

    http://covertrationingblog.com/general-rationing-issues/mr-bush-mr-obama-and-the-amish-bus-driver

    As always, when Mr. Obama declares one thing, he’s working behind the scenes for the opposite.

    Hal Dall, MD (b5068d)

  21. I suppose this is another one of those issues where Barcky pretends to listen to the other side, and the proceeds forward as though the other side never existed.

    JD (8d3f8f)

  22. he encouraged Americans to learn to disagree respectfully:

    Open hearts. Open minds. Fair-minded words.”

    Those quotes from the man who is a master of the demonizing backhand in his Teleprompter readings. Ask the Chrysler bondholders how respectfully this Chicago machine politician disagrees, or how fair-minded his words are.

    “We won” is about the most genial expression he’s used on those unfortunate humans who differ from his opinions, and his negotiating thuggery is about to be newly applied to the holders of secured GM debt.

    Judge this President by his actions, not his oh-so-carefully selected words. Every one of his assertions has an expiration date, and the Constitution is merely an inconvenient obstacle to his long-range authoritarian goals.

    Insufficiently Sensitive (a939d1)

  23. #14, nk wrote: “And I say this as someone who was consecrated to the Virgin, went to catechism every Saturday, was an altar boy, and tolled the death knell for JFK.”

    I love the way anti-Catholics think this actually means something. It’s like me, a fallen-away atheist, saying “And I say this as someone who was born to atheist parents, went to public school every day, made a pilgrimage to Lenin’s tomb, and mourned the death of Jean-Paul Sartre.”

    Wtf does any of that have to do with anything? You’re trying to convince everyone that you were a serious, knowledgeable Catholic, when clearly you weren’t. You were a kid who went through Catholic primary school and received the early Sacraments at the insistence of your parents, who now wants to bill himself on the strength of that as some kind of philosophical and theological authority. Newsflash: the attempt itself shows how little knowledge and authority you actually possess, because no one who actually had such knowledge and authority would ever dream of trotting out his primary school experience as proof of it.

    danebramage (700c93)

  24. Newsflash: I have never been nor am I now a Catholic. Or anti-Catholic.

    nk (a1896a)

  25. You know … I don’t take my orders from God, or from a bishop, or from a priest, when it comes to abortion. I came to the decision that children are valuable and we should not kill them as a human being. If God is offended at Obama speaking at one of His institutions … what … has He run out of thunderbolts?

    nk (a1896a)

  26. “Open hearts. Open minds. Fair-minded words.”

    Obama: try using your line on the 40 million kids who have been aborted since you were in junior high school. It’s wasted on people like me.

    MarkJ (d2394a)

  27. The Catholics aren’t nearly as confused as the Episcopalians

    I hear that – have only been back on the high holy days since confirmation, and the church bears no resemblance to what I remember. They got rid of the King James Bible and just about everything else, all in the name of being more contemporary and thus attracting new members. Gee, wonder how that’s working out?

    Dmac (1ddf7e)

  28. #18 makes a great point. I expect to see a lot of this: the Great Man being above the fray, while his underlings say horrible and divisive things.

    I would be impressed if BHO would say that Axelrod was out of line, and should apologize. Especially given the things that the President said in his ND speech.

    Unless it is just more Chicago-style greenhouse gas.

    Hope and Change from Chicago?

    Eric Blair (c55f63)

  29. the views of the two camps are irreconcilable.

    Yeah right, one side gets all exercised over a little water being poured on the face of a mass murderer but they have no problem with the skull of an unborn baby being drilled until her brains fall out.

    Irreconcilable. The leadership at ND is clueless.

    Terry Gain (4f27d2)

  30. This was the single greatest betrayal by and of an institution that I’ve loved, in my life. I simply cannot convey in words how deeply I have been gutted. Notre Dame was the one place, the one thing, that I placed hope in. I fully realized that anything of man is necessarily flawed. I am no fool. Yet, today was devastating.

    My sister, an alumnae, flew out at considerable expense to join the “approved” protest on the South Quad. As they were gathered, (less than the thousand reported by Fox) Air Force One diverted from the usual flight and glide path into South Bend’s airport. To her, it flew menacingly low and to the South (directly over her old dormitory so she would know the usual flight path of planes and this wasn’t it) so as to deliver a message of power to the protesters. Of course, we all know BHO would never stoop to flying AF1 in a manner that would upset folks on the ground. Don’t we?

    My faith tells me to not concern myself with the ultimate end of this earth. It also commands me to do my damnedest to forestall the end. I don’t know if I have the heart to fight anymore.

    Ed from SFV (aeef34)

  31. It is amazing that conservative Catholics get so worked up over abortion, but never get as worked up toward their parties policies the Church opposes: you know like the the Iraq war and the death penalty. In fact, I’m pretty sure what is sneered at here in these parts as “redistribution of wealth” is how to Church sees is part of the poverty relief that Jesus guy talked about.

    Talk about cafeteria Catholics: the hair shirt over abortion, but ignoring the Church over small issues like war, murder, and how to treat one’s fellow man.

    timb (8f04c0)

  32. Talk about cafeteria Catholics: the hair shirt over abortion, but ignoring the Church over small issues like war, murder, and how to treat one’s fellow man.

    I know this is hard for you, but the Iraq war isn’t doctrinal, and thus Catholics are free to disagree with The Church (it’s why Catholics are free to serve in the military). The same actually goes for the Death penalty.

    Abortion, however, deals with the life of an Innocent (note: that is not the same thing as “Freedom Fighter”), and thus is part of Church Dogma.

    The Pope may speak out against the death penalty, and war (he kind of has to), but has never made a statement with the power of Papal infallibility behind it. The same can not be said for Abortion.

    Though I suppose I should not be overly shocked you don’t get that concept, as it seems you know about as much about Catholic traditions and teachings as Speaker Pelosi.

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  33. That is complete and utter horsepuckey. Render unto God what is God’s, and to Caesar what is Caeser’s. Charity and redistribution of the fruits of one’s labors is a voluntary choice. Plus, it is a well-known fact that conservatives are far more generous with both their time and money towards charity in comparison to our caring leftists friends, who prefer to donate other people’s time and other people’s money.

    JD (8d3f8f)

  34. It is amazing that conservative Catholics get so worked up over abortion, but never get as worked up toward their parties policies the Church opposes: you know like the the Iraq war and the death penalty.

    It is obvious you’ve never read the Ten Commandments section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, especially the part that deals with the Fifth Commandment:

    Thou shalt not kill.

    Otherwise, you wouldn’t have posted such an uninformed comment.

    In fact, I’m pretty sure what is sneered at here in these parts as “redistribution of wealth” is how to Church sees is part of the poverty relief that Jesus guy talked about.

    That Jesus guy was a devout Jew. Which means he upheld the Tenth Commandment:

    Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house; neither shalt thou desire… his servant, nor his handmaiden, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is his. The tenth commandment forbids coveting the goods of another.

    That means, in the words of P.J. O’Roarke, “Go get your own.”

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (1284e4)

  35. Talk about cafeteria Catholics: the hair shirt over abortion, but ignoring the Church over small issues like war, murder, and how to treat one’s fellow man.

    I see you have a problem with the vision thing – before and after.

    The war to liberate Iraq saved lives even as it was being fought. In addition to liberating 28 million people the war removed a terrorist harboring and terrorist supporting, mass murdering, genocidal Stalinist, who today would be developing nuclear weapons were he still in power.

    Terry Gain (4f27d2)

  36. Paul, Liberals violate the 10th commandment just being Liberals. As for the 5th commandment, it is just like an emptyheaded Liberal to take something totally out of context.

    All the commandments were for the individual, not the state. Get it? I suppose not since you will reply.

    PCD (c46315)

  37. Paul, Liberals violate the 10th commandment just being Liberals. As for the 5th commandment, it is just like an emptyheaded Liberal to take something totally out of context.

    I know that. My intent was to write a reply that would leave a mark.

    All the commandments were for the individual, not the state. Get it? I suppose not since you will reply.

    Is that to me or timb?

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (1284e4)

  38. timb misrepresenting Catholic church teachings? How amusing.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  39. “Misrepresenting” is an understatement, SPQR.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (1284e4)

  40. Yeah right, one side gets all exercised over a little water being poured on the face of a mass murderer but they have no problem with the skull of an unborn baby being drilled until her brains fall out.

    Similarly, there are quite a few folks on the left who are more indignant or bothered about people treating their household pets a certain way, or using certain animals for food (eg, Californians several years ago banned owners of horses from selling them to rendering plants) than they are about the abortion of human fetuses.

    BTW, I think that for logistical and political reasons, banning abortion is analogous to efforts of years ago to desegregate public schools. So while a policy may be predicated on good principles/ethics, ultimately it just won’t work or will be so thoroughly manuvered around by opponents as to end up meaningless—eg, parents who opposed court-mandated school-busing programs voted with their feet and moved to the suburbs.

    However, when it comes to the abortion controversy, there is a huge gray area, a realm of ambiguity. And the guy now in the Oval Office is the flip side to those anti-abortion fanatics who’ve attempted to harrass and intimidate — and even threaten with murder — people working in abortion clinics. Simply put, when I read things like the following, I know that the moral compass of our current president is totally haywire, totally screwed up.

    Michael Gerson, April 2, 2008

    Obama’s record on abortion is extreme. He opposed the ban on partial-birth abortion — a practice a fellow Democrat, the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, once called “too close to infanticide.” Obama strongly criticized the Supreme Court decision upholding the partial-birth ban. In the Illinois state Senate, he opposed a bill similar to the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act, which prevents the killing of infants mistakenly left alive by abortion. And now Obama has oddly claimed that he would not want his daughters to be “punished with a baby” because of a crisis pregnancy — hardly a welcoming attitude toward new life.

    For decades, most Democrats and many Republicans have hoped the political debate on abortion would simply go away. But it is the issue that does not die. Recent polls have shown that young people are more likely than their elders to support abortion restrictions.

    Mark (411533)

  41. It is amazing that conservative Catholics get so worked up over abortion, but never get as worked up toward their parties policies the Church opposes: you know like the the Iraq war and the death penalty.

    How anti-death penalty was the Church during the Inquisition?

    How anti-death penalty is the God depicted in the Holy Bible?

    Recent polls have shown that young people are more likely than their elders to support abortion restrictions.

    the same polls that show them supporting same-sex “marriage”?

    Michael Ejercito (7c44bf)

  42. I hold notre dame responsible for hosting, honoring and allowing to advocate, obama. There is great evil walking about today, and it is heartbraking to see the adulation it receives.

    J (c59f75)

  43. Obama also addressed the need for world peace and to find a way to “live together as one human family.”

    They just can’t move on from the Miss America pageant, can they?

    armadillo (211a15)

  44. Obama: “Open hearts. Open minds. Fair-minded words.”

    Well, Your Holyness, so much for ex cathedra!
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05677a.htm

    Fred Beloit (15d9a8)

  45. I wonder what effect uttering “Open hearts. Open minds. Fair-minded words” will have for the GM bond holders.

    Neo (46a1a2)

  46. Forgive me for persevarating on this. I do appreciate the Church bothering God so I won’t have to. But there was no need to ruin several thousand kids’ and parents’ proudest day with these stupid protests.

    nk (a1896a)

  47. Protests ruined the day? Get real. If there had been protesters at by bachelor’s degree graduation I might have been interested enough to attend!

    If the day was ruined, it was ruined by the Notre Dame brass turning their commencement into a political statement. There is no shortage of important and honorable people they could have invited who would have given a more inspiring message than Obama.

    That is… unless the Notre Dame leadership is among the fans who swoon whenever he speaks. Maybe that’s what this is saying.

    Gesundheit (9ca635)

  48. I suspect many parents were just happy that they no longer had to pay tuition 😉

    JD (55ca08)

  49. Thou shalt not kill.

    It’s actually, you well-known scholar, “thou shalt not murder.” Nonetheless, it would seem to aid my anti-death penalty/anti-war position as much as it does yours.

    I do like the proposition, as insane as it is, that killing Iraqis saved lives. The matter of fact of tone in which I read to it gave even more of a divorced (or should we say annulled?) from reality feel than most stupid pronouncements on this board.

    Secondly, debunker man the believer in infallible religious institutions? Delicious irony.

    And for PCD, a person apparently so unacquainted with the Old Testament, he/she has read one chapter and then desires to interpret like a UCC contract. First, lovely person you, I was discussing how the Church advocates poverty relief. The moron who tried to defeat that by saying the 10th Commandant means “every man for himself” was not me.

    timb (a83d56)

  50. I love how the Leftists will try to use the anti-war position of the Catholic church as a cudgel, while simultaneously describing their believers as nutbags for actually believing Church doctrine in re. abortion. It’s fundamental misunderstanding of the Church’s message on helping others is predictable, and sad. But, it is just an angry bitter nasty partisan.

    JD (55ca08)

  51. Comment by Gesundheit — 5/18/2009 @ 8:02 am

    Fair enough. I was fortunate to have a much superior human being at the commencement I attended over the weekend. (Link more than safe for work.)

    nk (a1896a)

  52. How dare OHB lecture Catholics on abortion. Telling us to keep a fair and open mind about the killing of innocents is like telling us to keep a fair and open mind about Josef Mengele.

    Notre Dame shamed Our Blessed Mother by elevating a man who owes his election to the “choice” crowd whose blood sacrifices have propelled him into office….

    Helen Back (0f9721)

  53. “But there was no need to ruin several thousand kids’ and parents’ proudest day with these stupid protests.”

    Yet another conservative in the “We have Jobs. We have Lives.” contingent who feels he/she would rather not get his/her hands dirty by actually doing the hard, dirty work necessary to further his/her agenda.

    The Left knows the Right refuses to stand behind their people. Thus we have the spectacle of the intellectual Right crapping on the one group that has achieved consistent success in getting its message out. Or does the intellctual Right feel the pictures of aborted babies are too low-brow to actually influence public opinion to the point where a majority of folks are Pro-Life?

    Brad S (9f6740)

  54. Like I said before, has God run out of thunderbolts? Anyway, thank you for calling me an intellectual. I’m pretty stupid, actually.

    nk (a1896a)

  55. How come showing ‘mutual respect’ means they always get their way, and I need to be respectful and shut up about it – you know, keep my ‘extreamist’ views to myself.

    This is, of course, similar to ‘bi-partisanship’, which basically means that if we all go along with the Dems ideas, we call all get along.

    Lily (8be0db)

  56. “But there was no need to ruin several thousand kids’ and parents’ proudest day with these stupid protests.”

    I have never understood why any graduation speech is politicied. But it happens every year, and is unfair to the graduates.

    However, I place the blame for this on the people who invited Obama, for they surely could predict that it would be a problem for the catholic school and for practicing catholics.

    Lily (8be0db)

  57. “Open hearts. Open minds. Fair-minded words.”

    You know, the Wanda Sykes approach…

    Wesley M. (484c54)

  58. Secondly, debunker man the believer in infallible religious institutions? Delicious irony.

    neither I nor anyone else said that the Church was infallible. However, when the Pope speaks in such a manner, his words are God’s Words, and can not be argues.

    While the Pope may issues a Papal Bulla about any subject (and they are indeed many and varied), of the topics you spoke of only Abortion has been addressed as a matter of Doctrine.

    Abortion is wrong. Thus speaks the Catholic Church. It is a matter about which you can not disagree without conflicting directly with the Church, and in such conflict require the absolution of Confession, and in fact they should not recieve Holy Communion with doing so. When Speaker Pelosi took Communion during His Holiness’s visit, she was in fact comminting an act that could have caused her to be excommunicated – I suspect she did it so as to “dare” the Pontif to do so.

    This is not so regarding war, or the Death Penalty. On those, while the Church may take a position against them, it does not go so far as to make it’s stance Dogma.

    How might I further explain this so you can understand it, timb?

    Scott Jacobs (60844a)

  59. timb, Jesus NEVER advocated the government (Ceasar) redistribute wealth, nor did Jesus ever prohibit a government from going to war.

    Jesus dealt with individuals. You Liberals want the government to ORDER and FORCE people to live and think as you Liberals Demand. That is not Jesus Christ. It is Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin, Saul Alinsky or any other malignant leftist who viewed the state as superior over the individual and that religion was the opiate of the masses.

    PCD (02f8c1)

  60. Six years ago I joined a 15 year african-american teenager who was eight weeks pregnant in a discussion with anti-abortion proponents. They promised support and when she was 8 months pregnant abandonned her. I also heard the most spurious comments immaginable from those individuals regarding poor people and a discouraging indifference to devoting more resources to breaking the cycle of poverty. I now perceive that the position of many Anti-abortion proponents, with regard to the inner city poor, is that babies should be born to live now, but die(with lack of adequate health care, education, decent and affordable housing, jobs at a livable wage) before adulthood.

    Artelia (996c34)

  61. Jesus dealt with individuals. You Liberals want the government to ORDER and FORCE people to live and think as you Liberals Demand.

    Isn’t that what Conservatives are doing with abortion? If the state is not subject to the ‘thou shalt not murder’ command of the Bible, yet our government has chosen to legislate particular clause, why shouldn’t we legislate the “we are our brother’s keeper” part, too? I know it is painful, but I do not think we should pick and choose which parts of the Bible that we obey, PCD.

    positive K (13d5ea)

  62. Artelia and positively mendoucheous appear to enjoy arguing with strawpeople, arguing with positions not held, and being dishonest in general.

    JD (f96a20)

  63. JD,

    I’ll worry about engaging in strawmen arguments, “dishonesty,” and sidetracking when the Right Wing punditry stops throwing Pro-Lifers like me whenever their Lefty pals (you know, you’re true audience) turns up his nose in disapproval at our mere existence.

    Just in case you were referring to me.

    Brad S (9f6740)

  64. Throwing Pro-Lifers like me in the garbage, I should say.

    Hate it when I think two steps ahead of my typing.

    Brad S (9f6740)

  65. I now perceive that the position of many Anti-abortion proponents, with regard to the inner city poor, is that babies should be born to live now, but die(with lack of adequate health care, education, decent and affordable housing, jobs at a livable wage) before adulthood.
    Comment by Artelia — 5/18/2009 @ 12:48 pm

    Some of us here on these boards (yes, I am one) work in the inner city, with the inner city poor. I do pro-life work as a volunteer in addition to that.

    I will keep my temper with this, frankly, prejudiced and offensive comment. First, if anyone who promised to be there for someone abandoned them when it could have been helped (don’t know if she rejected their help at any point or some other situation made help impossible) then that’s reprehensible and an inexcusable thing to do.

    However, I would suggest that those who would generalize about prolifers in general, and how much they help people, and what their views are on letting babies live till adulthood and have as much quality of life as is possible, either know extremely few prolifers or are not at all familiar with the dynamics of the inner city and how many of the churches and other ministries based in the inner city give enormous amounts of help to those of all ages, some immediate and some work toward laws which help people long term, and many, many of these are prolife for unborn children too.

    no one you know (65b7aa)

  66. I now perceive that the position of many Anti-abortion proponents, with regard to the inner city poor, is that babies should be born to live now, but die(with lack of adequate health care, education, decent and affordable housing, jobs at a livable wage) before adulthood.

    Obviously, you are not familiar with the history of Planned Parenthood, it’s original mission, and the views of it’s founder (which have remained unchanged since the organization’s founding).

    Would you like the option of trying again?

    Scott Jacobs (60844a)

  67. Brad S – Unless your name is Artelia or positive k, who it is clear my comment was addressed to, it was not addressed to you. As you well know, I do not hesitate to make foreceful and direct comments towards people. Should I wish to direct a comment at you, I will do so, and there will be no confusion.

    Noyk – That is just another version of the Leftists RACIST meme. Artelia was being aggressively dishonest, and frankly, I question even the veracity of her anecdote, given the overall tenor. How convenient of a story for Artelia.

    JD (f96a20)

  68. Artelia, you’re obviously one of those folks who think Pro-Lifers are scum, but I’d really encourage you to check this site out:

    http://www.stantonhealthcare.org/

    This clinic is run by Brandi Swindell, a Pro-Lifer who has been more than willing to put her values out front, where it counts.

    Or does that matter to you?

    Brad S (9f6740)

  69. Can someone be pro-life and pro-choice at the same time?

    The Emperor (09c9e3)

  70. No. That was a painfully, brain-jarringly obtuse question. A question like that should cause physical pain to the person that utters it.

    JD (a67da8)

  71. Which one are you, JD? Are you pro-life or are you pro-choice? Or are you somewhere in the center? Be very honest.

    The Emperor (09c9e3)

  72. I am pro-life, though there are many aspects of the pro-life movement I find distasteful.

    JD (557367)

  73. The practical reality is that the issue will never go away, since the entire issue was wresled away from the voters and mandated from on high. Abortion will not ever be illegal, nor do I want it to be. Given the practical political realities, I will be quiet pleased to see reasonable restrictions placed on its use. For example, if I have to sign a perission slip for my daughter to get her ears pierced, I feel I should also have to sign a permission slip should she, God forbid, choose to get an abortion as a legal minor. I have never seen a rational position offered as to why partial birth abortions should be allowed, and find them to be utterly repulsive. I also dislike the idea of using abortion as birth control, as that should have been considered long before arriving at that point. But, I am some God-bothering puritan religious zealot.

    JD (557367)

  74. Very honest answer, JD. I am very impressed.

    The Emperor (09c9e3)

  75. JD, I find your position very close to mine, which is funny as I am an atheist.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  76. Maybe there is more to this than people forcing there religion on others?

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  77. Machinist – I grew up Catholic, but currently attend Episcopal services, so I am practically an atheist 😉

    JD (a67da8)

  78. No, Machinist, there is nothing more to it than the God-botherers trying to cram their values down other peoples throats. /sarc

    THEOCRACY !!!!!

    JD (a67da8)

  79. But I’m the one that was just called a preening moralist!

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  80. I must confess that my views were influenced by the “Boss”. I used to be pro abortion, right up to birth and maybe after. It was Rush that got me to take another look. Obviously I did not adopt his views but I did alter mine. I don’t have much problem when it is a clump of cells only a biologist could tell from a cat or a horse, but once it’s a viable human I think it’s wrong to kill it.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  81. which is funny as I am an atheist.

    Comment by Machinist — 5/18/2009 @ 4:11 pm

    Why God never got a PhD
    ———————–

    1. He had only one major publication.
    2. It was written in Aramaic, not in English.
    3. It has no references.
    4. It wasn’t even published in a refereed journal.
    5. There are serious doubts he wrote it himself.
    6. It may be true that he created the world, but what has he done since
    then?
    7. His cooperative efforts have been quite limited.
    8. The Scientific community has had a hard time replicating his results.
    9. He unlawfully performed not only Animal, but *Human* testing.
    10. When one experiment went awry, he tried to cover it by drowning his
    subjects.
    11. When subjects didn’t behave as predicted, he deleted them from
    the sample.
    12. He rarely came to class, just told his students to read the book.
    13. Some say he had his son to teach the class.
    14. He expelled his first two students for learning.
    15. Although there were only 10 requirements, most of his students
    failed his tests.
    16. His office hours were infrequent and usually held on a mountain to

    The Emperor (09c9e3)

  82. Six years ago I joined a 15 year african-american teenager who was eight weeks pregnant in a discussion with anti-abortion proponents. They promised support and when she was 8 months pregnant abandonned her.

    That story seems mighty … convenient.

    Some of us here on these boards (yes, I am one) work in the inner city, with the inner city poor. I do pro-life work as a volunteer in addition to that.

    Amen, no one you know… We volunteer at a Catholic food bank and the kids who help out all do the pro-life thing on the weekends. They support the poor with action, money and time, and they do it from cradle to grave, not when it’s convenient.

    carlitos (2703cf)

  83. It’s actually, you well-known scholar, “thou shalt not murder.”

    Oh really? Care to argue which translation is correct, considering most come from the Latin Vulgate?

    Nonetheless, it would seem to aid my anti-death penalty/anti-war position as much as it does yours.

    Yes…if you mean that ignorance and moral relativism is part of your argument.

    I do like the proposition, as insane as it is, that killing Iraqis saved lives. The matter of fact of tone in which I read to it gave even more of a divorced (or should we say annulled?) from reality feel than most stupid pronouncements on this board.

    Still haven’t read the Catchechism, I see.

    Secondly, debunker man the believer in infallible religious institutions? Delicious irony.

    Ironic only in your sheer ignorance in the matters you bring up.

    Before you make yourself look even more like an idiot, timb, I suggest you get to reading that Catchechism.

    First, lovely person you, I was discussing how the Church advocates poverty relief.

    Which you further prove yourself to be uninformed. The church does not advocate legalized theft by those who are deep in greed, jealousy and envy.

    The moron who tried to defeat that by saying the 10th Commandant means “every man for himself” was not me.

    Tried?

    It is a testament to your sheer ignorance that you don’t realize how you got posterized.

    Now get to that Catchechism.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (1284e4)

  84. It is “thou shalt not murder”. The Greek preceded the Vulgate and it reads ου φονευσης (ou foneyses) which is actually “murder by stealth”.

    nk (a1896a)

  85. Artelia:

    I now perceive that the position of many Anti-abortion proponents, with regard to the inner city poor, is that babies should be born to live now, but die(with lack of adequate health care, education, decent and affordable housing, jobs at a livable wage) before adulthood.

    Scott Jacobs:

    Obviously, you are not familiar with the history of Planned Parenthood, it’s original mission, and the views of it’s founder (which have remained unchanged since the organization’s founding).

    Let me give you a hint, Artelia:

    The founder of Planned Parenthood had some “interesting” views. The founder shared these views like a unwavering preacher to whoever would listen, starting around 1910-1914. The founder did this for decades, with minor changes in those views, until passing away in the 1960s. A certain political party in a certain European country sometime in the 1920s adopted those views and made them a central part of their platform.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (1284e4)

  86. anti-abortion proponents

    Artelia gave herself away from the get-go.

    Dana (4a6e8c)

  87. Interesting, I never knew that the tablets held by Moses were inscribed in Greek (snark).
    But, the original translation from Aramaic (?) is “murder”.

    AD - RtR/OS! (c02a3c)

  88. @AD

    Actually, most all of the bible was written – originally – in greek, especially the New Testament.

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  89. Rabbinical scholars can correct me, but the Septuagint, the first “Christian” Old Testament, is essentially contemporaneous with the complete Tanakh, the “Hebrew Bible”. But yes, the source texts for both were of course in Hebrew and Aramaic.

    nk (a1896a)

  90. Comment by Paul (creator of “Staunch Brayer”) — 5/18/2009 @ 5:46 pm

    Instead of being a precocious jerk, why don’t you specifically state which parts of the catechism specifically state that some killing is justified while abortion is not? Doesn’t the Bible say that we are born in sin? Moral relativism has its meaning when those on the right create an argument that weaves its way through the areas of complete condemnation and commendation for murder depending upon the the direction of the political wind on that particular day. It stinks of hypocrisy. Instead of addressing that hypocrisy, you just claim the other side is ignorant of true Christianity and high-handedly tell them to read up. Well, why don’t you tell us which parts of the Bible (the Bible, not the Pope… we all have been given the instructions and we don’t need another fallen being telling us how we’re to think) suggest that your side is the absolute truth?

    antibody (936216)

  91. moral reletism has lost* its meaning

    antibody (936216)

  92. Scott…The “Bible” might have been originally written in Greek, but the Ten Commandments were written well before that, and in Aramaic.

    AD - RtR/OS! (681803)

  93. So, antibody, which is it? War is bad, but abortion is good? Why is it that you feel free to pick and choose, ignoring the actual tenets of the faith, but others cannot make their own informed conclusions?

    JD (928a1b)

  94. Comment by antibody — 5/19/2009 @ 11:22 am

    Which Bible?
    The Roman Catholic Bible?
    The Anglican Bible?
    Eastern/Russian Orthodox?
    Giddeon?

    AD - RtR/OS! (681803)

  95. Both are bad. I am all for reducing the number of abortions in the United States and the world. We all know that number will never be reduced to zero, so how do we do that? The literature and studies I have read indicate that making abortion illegal will only create a shift in where these women actually get them.

    antibody (936216)

  96. Who here, exactly – and be specific, is calling for abortion to be illegal?

    JD (928a1b)

  97. Why don’t we let them speak for themselves. I would suggest that militantly objecting to a simple speech by the President of the United States would suggest the person is calling for abortion to be illegal. If not, then why throw the hissy?

    antibody (936216)

  98. Could it be because abortion is contrary to R-C doctrine, and ND is a R-C University, and that by inviting a featured speaker who is known for his pro-abortion position, the Trustees are advancing a philosophy in conflict with the standards of the school they are supposed to husband?

    AD - RtR/OS! (681803)

  99. Obama is not pro-abortion. If he were, then he would not have said that he wants them to be rare. The Democratic leadership seems to be taking the lead on actually reducing abortion, and not just paying lip service to its abolition in order to scare up votes.

    antibody (936216)

  100. To say that Obama is not pro-abortion is to deny all of the actions he took in the IL Senate.
    Wake-up and smell the formaldehyde.

    AD - RtR/OS! (681803)

  101. As I suspected, it prefers to argue with positions not held by the people here. It is easier to argue with the cartoon caricatures it has in its head.

    Obama is not pro-abortion. If he were, then he would not have said that he wants them to be rare. The Democratic leadership seems to be taking the lead on actually reducing abortion

    This assertion of fact flies in the face of Barcky’s actual record. I suppose you will be able to show one reasonable restriction that the Dem leadership is willing to place on abortion. Parental notification? Parental consent? Education as to alternatives? Partial birth abortion ban? Born alive?

    JD (928a1b)

  102. JD…Don’t bother.
    It’s mind is made up, and will only be confused by facts.

    AD - RtR/OS! (681803)

  103. Comment by AD – RtR/OS! — 5/19/2009 @ 11:29 am
    The old testament was largely written in Hebrew. Hence the name “The Hebrew Bible”. Some portions may have been written in Aramaic. But very few books.

    The Emperor (09c9e3)

  104. antibody, #100, your comment flies in the face of their actual … you know … actions. Especially Obama’s, as he has had the most radical position among Democrats. Obama’s ability to pretend to be above a debate is a rhetorical trick, and has no substance at all, given his actual voting record.

    SPQR (72771e)

  105. […] Please, let’s make this more than a pretty turn of phrase. ___Hat tip: DRJ at Patterico’s Pontifications. […]

    Quote of the Day — Barack Obama – blogan (c80ceb)


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