Patterico's Pontifications

4/9/2009

Obama Is the Real Conservative

Filed under: General — Jack Dunphy @ 10:30 am



[Guest post by Jack Dunphy]

Stop laughing. I learned this from no less an authority than The New Yorker magazine. The weekly “Talk of the Town” section is composed of a handful of short pieces, and in every issue for the past year or so, at least one of these has been devoted to extolling the manifold virtues of Barack Obama. In the April 13 issue, we indeed learn that the president is actually propounding classical conservative principles as he extends the federal tentacles into an ever-larger portion of the American economy. Writer George Packer explains:

In his budget message to Congress, Obama invoked the value of fairness, but his budget proposals don’t create government programs—such as guaranteed-income measures or large numbers of relief jobs—that would establish equality from the top down. Instead, Obama seems to recognize that nothing has shredded the civic fabric in recent years more than the harsh inequalities of finance capitalism and the market ideology of a generation of American politics. This is not the rigid mentality of an engineer of human souls; it’s the attitude of a community organizer.

It’s also a pretty good description of what used to pass for conservatism—a sense that social relations and institutions are fragile things, and that, while government can’t create wealth or impose equality, at moments like this it has to establish a new equilibrium between individuals and huge economic forces, so that society doesn’t crumble. But modern conservatism has grown into exactly the opposite of its origins, in Burke’s respect for tradition and Madison’s promotion of countervailing checks on concentrations of power. Instead, like any revolutionary creed, it is abstract, hard-edged, and indifferent to experience and existing conditions.

So you see, Edmund Burke and James Madison, far from rolling over in their respective graves at the invocation of their names in such a fashion, would actually endorse Mr. Obama’s economic policies. All of you out there who call yourselves conservatives, all you rubes out there in the vast, howling wilderness that lies between the Hudson River and Beverly Hills, well, you’re just wrong. But there is hope for you, if you will but seek the wisdom contained within the pages of The New Yorker. Read and learn, peasants, read and learn.

–Jack Dunphy

138 Responses to “Obama Is the Real Conservative”

  1. As Dennis Prager is wont to say (and I think he lifted it from someone else):
    You have to go to Graduate School to be this stupefyingly ignorant!

    AD - RtR/OS (da3c7c)

  2. I think it is a quote attributed to George Orwell (and I don’t think accurately) that you need to be an intellectual to believe something so foolish.

    Eric Blair (bea5f0)

  3. So the Rosenbergs, signing their Death House letters with their hopes for “Peace, Bread and Roses”, were actually conservatives. Thanks, New Yorker.

    Soon they’ll tell us that during the USSR’s period of forced collectivization, perhaps a few peasants were discomfitted.

    Pigilito (98bfbc)

  4. I’ll try to convince my daughter that when I give her half a Hershey bar I’m actually giving her two Hershey bars.

    nk (3bf385)

  5. Comment by Pigilito — 4/9/2009 @ 10:46 am
    Well, that would be the message if all you knew about Forced Collectivization was the writings of Walter Duranty in the NYT.

    AD - RtR/OS (da3c7c)

  6. Your inability to parse conservative philosophy via Burke and Madison, displays much ignorance Mr. Dunphy.

    Obama does, indeed manifest many traditional conservative values, it’s simply the ongoing myopia, risable irrelevance and unbelievable continual displays of broken-ness, of the present day Republican party, and its members, like you, that would find such an article a subject of lampoonery, as opposed to be being a valuable and worthy jumping point for further exploration and discussion of what traditional conservatism once was. In essence, modern day Republicans have come to believe so strongly in their own lies and spin, that they’ve completely divorced themselves from any ideological integrity.

    Madison and Burke, are indeed laughing their heads off in their graves, but it is at self-righteous hubris of the sort displayed in this post.

    Tsk, tsk, tsk…

    Peter (e70d1c)

  7. Anybody who reads the New Yorker deserves what he gets.

    The Rasmussen Poll today shows us what “progressive education” has done to the common sense of students and young adults. They are undecided between socialism and capitalism. At least more want the free market, whatever that is. If you look at the age breakdown, you see the underlying story. Kids are being taught that socialism is better and, given that most students have no life experience, they believe it. After all, their parents have been talking care of them for 18 years or more.

    Why not just let Obama take care of you ?

    Mike K (90939b)

  8. He mentions the concept of fairness, which a conservative would understand as equality of opportunity, then goes on to blather about something else entirely. I haven’t yet figured out what that “is” yet–community organizing?

    Patricia (94c68d)

  9. He mentions the concept of fairness, which a conservative would understand as equality of opportunity, then goes on to blather about something else entirely. I haven’t yet figured out what that is yet–community organizing?

    Patricia (94c68d)

  10. Dr. K., I can promise you that MOST students cannot define either capitalism or socialism clearly. They just have learned that the latter is touchy-feeling good, and the former is hardnosed and all about money.

    I find that tax increases tend to change their thinking.

    Eric Blair (bea5f0)

  11. Oh, and a trip to the DMV. Which will be the model we all face, when Daddy Knows Best.

    Eric Blair (bea5f0)

  12. Black is white. Up is down. ASPCA is smart.

    JD (72cf0d)

  13. Why stop where they did? Why not claim Barcky is following Russell Kirk’s writings?

    JD (72cf0d)

  14. Government Health Care:
    A melding of the typical “Emergency Room” work-pace with the consumer-friendliness of the DMV – take a number for quicker dying!

    AD - RtR/OS (da3c7c)

  15. AD @ 5: Too true; Duranty was one of the USSR’s great apologists (perhaps tellingly, he won a Pulitzer Prize). Or if one got one’s info from GB Shaw, who proclaimed the USSR’s people well fed during a famine that killed millions. Shaw also stated that: In the USSR, unlike Britain, there is freedom of religion.”

    Pigilito (98bfbc)

  16. “…vast howling wilderness”

    You got that right. I’d be howling at this one now if I weren’t in my office.

    Gesundheit (47b0b8)

  17. Comment by Pigilito — 4/9/2009 @ 11:12 am

    Shaw was being just a bit disingenuous, wasn’t he?
    The State confiscated all religious properties, and frowned upon the outward practice of religion; whilst setting up Marxist-Leninist thought as a substitute for a “state sponsored religion”.
    So, since there was no official religion (most Russian Orthodox cathedrals were now museums) the Soviet masses were free to practice any religion they wished except there were no churches, and the outward practice of religion would guarantee you a visit by the Checka for participating in counter-revolutionary activity.

    AD - RtR/OS (da3c7c)

  18. Oh, OK! I get it now. This is a parody post right? Hah ha, very funny, Obama as conservative. Really, you had me going there for a whil …

    Um, WHAT? Really? No!

    I couldn’t be more gobsmacked if JD had said nice things about me.

    BJTexs (56337a)

  19. I find that tax increases tend to change their thinking.

    What’s that old saying about conservatives just being liberals mugged by reality? Another one was as soon as they buy their first homes, their politics start to shift to the right – property taxes tend to have that effect on people.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  20. perhaps tellingly, he won a Pulitzer Prize.

    …and after recently admitting his incredibly fraudulent reportage and their culpability, they still refused to return the prize.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  21. “3 a: tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions”

    Dictionary definition. The Dems want to maintain all the programs they’ve put into place over the years (the IRS, Selective Service, Social Security, Fannie Mae, whatever). I want to get rid of them. That makes them the conservatives by the dictionary definition.

    Dave Surls (47b62c)

  22. I’ve always fancied myself in the Jeffersonian model
    (though I grant that he was much smarter, and more accomplished):
    A Radical Revolutionary!

    AD - RtR/OS (da3c7c)

  23. You think the schools are strong in their indoctrination of children now? Just wait.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  24. Comment by John Hitchcock — 4/9/2009 @ 12:57 pm

    Just another sell-out to the Ed establishment, particularly the AFT and NEA.
    Those longer hours and weeks are going to require a lot more teachers (have to have team-teaching since working 6-days/week is just un-American), administrators, UNION-MEMBERS!

    What American Education needs is more vouchers, and accountability.

    A first step would be the disbanding of the Dept of Ed, and taking its’ entire budget and sending it to each and every school child in the form of a voucher to be used at any accredited educational forum in the land in the same manner that the original G.I.Bill was handled.

    AD - RtR/OS (da3c7c)

  25. I fully agree, AD. I’m fully in support of disbanding DoE.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  26. Why do you racist neoconz want to keep children from being educated?

    JD (72cf0d)

  27. Someone once said that if your aim was to hurt the chances of minorities to succeed, the current structure of education, particularly in major urban areas, couldn’t have been devised any better if it was set up by the KKK.
    What an accomplishment by the PhD’s of the Eduocracy!
    And, it’s only going to get worse.

    AD - RtR/OS (da3c7c)

  28. It’s always good for a laugh, hearing a liberal talk about what it means to be conservative. If there’s even one who has the slightest clue, I don’t know about him.

    tim maguire (4a98f0)

  29. I can completely see Packer’s argument. This was exactly my view of people who called themselves conservatives for a long time, that they were these duped slaves to gigantic corporations and would do anything to further a huge corporate agenda, even at the expense of the “small businesses” that they were always paying so much lip service to.

    I have re-evaluated those views considerably over the last 20 years mostly due to conversations with “conservatives” who actually run small businesses. And I realized that all ideologies love big corp. money including the ones where the state is the big corp.

    It also became quite obvious that calling people a “liberal” or “conservative” was just an easy way of quickly classifying and dismissing a person you don’t think you will agree with on many topics. This is useful for politicians, talking heads, etc. because they can use those words to manipulate people without actually having to argue a position. It’s like saying, “You maybe have something interesting to say but let’s face it, you’re Irish and we all know how THEY are”.

    After reading this blog for about a year however I am starting to realize that it goes way beyond that. People start using these words like “conservative” or “liberal” and they are talking about completely different things. Those words have so many different definitions of convenience to some or very strict, formal definitions to others, that in a general way they seem almost completely devoid of meaning. In essence you can use them to mean anything you want them to.

    Packer can say “Obama is a “real” conservative” and then lay down some reasoning but at best all he is really saying is “This particular attitude of Obama’s is in agreement with “conservatives” of a certain time period”. People who see themselves as strictly defined conservatives of course recoil because Obama is not “conservative” in so many other ways. People who define themselves as strictly “liberal” recoil coz they realize that Obama was not the knight of the left that they wanted him to be. I think Paker’s argument may be an attempt to hang on to all those independents who voted O and are deciding that he is too much a slave of really big corporations to vote for again. But hey! At least he’s a “real” conservative right?

    EdWood (20155a)

  30. like any revolutionary creed, it is abstract, hard-edged, and indifferent to experience and existing conditions.

    He is absolutely right about this, though not about Obama being a conservative. For the last decade and a half, the Republicans and ‘respectable conservatives’ have been drinking the laissez fair, free trade at all costs Kool-aid. So much so that the WSJ and Rich Lowry at NRO and George Will have been spending considerable effort into opening our highways to Mexican trucks without limit. So-called Republican conservatives, including Tom Delay, ran interference for Chinese sweatshops located in the Northern Marianas, all for the sake of ‘free trade’. Many of these establishment conservatives, such as Linda Chavez and Tamar Jacoby, are for de facto open borders on immigration — once again in pursuit of free market ideology. And of course the George Bush worldwide democracy campaign was revolutionary and hard-edged. Turned out that Iraqis somehow weren’t classical liberals waiting to be liberated by the USA.

    So Packard is right in the diagnosis, but very wrong on the cure.

    horace (d4f6f9)

  31. Great, now I got to scrape this off my shoes.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  32. Ignore all that video of Iraqis proudly displaying their blue-inked fingers, showing they voted. Ignore the video of the Iraqi man with his son on his shoulders and the son having wiped some of his father’s blue ink on his own finger. Nevermind all the Iraqis thanking US soldiers for giving them freedom. None of that was real.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  33. John Hitchcock takes us down memory lane to 2005 — 4 years and, oh, 2500 dead Americans ago. And yeah, the ‘surge’ worked — enough force and bribes to tribal chieftains and local hacks can work wonders. Wasn’t it really worth those American lives and the obvious damage to the economy caused by Bush’s guns and butter policies?

    horace (d4f6f9)

  34. horace, “obvious damage to the economy” ? Your ignorance of economics almost exceeds your lack of character.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  35. SPQR – How did you get it on your shoes. horace is flinging feces on the walls. It is pissing on the floor.

    JD (72cf0d)

  36. JD, bad luck I guess.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  37. Jack, are you sure you read that by-line right? This level of analysis sounds more in line with what we’d expect from that perennial man-on-the-street Greg Packer, not someone who’s supposedly paid to produce an intelligent opinion.

    PCachu (e072b7)

  38. And, just so you know, it took me a few hours of searching to find that book a while back. I couldn’t remember the name of the liberal former member of the US Army who wrote the book or the name of the book.

    It’s a very good read, and it debunks chunks of misinformation the anti-war nutjobs spread.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  39. 4 years and, oh, 2500 dead Americans ago.

    And a hearty F-CK YOU back at ya, Hortense.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  40. In the April 13 issue, we indeed learn that the president is actually propounding classical conservative principles

    And I have no doubt that the author of that nonsense labels himself as not a liberal but a progressive!

    Mark (411533)

  41. “And I realized that all ideologies love big corp. money including the ones where the state is the big corp”

    EdWood – The above was particularly stupid and blew your premise out of the water from the start. The state is not a corporation. Think about the differences and try again, old chap. It’s sort of important.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  42. horace,

    Rather than spout the party line, why not just take the vast majority of soldiers who served and the vast majority of Iraqi people who prefer what they have today versus the Saddam years at their word?

    It was worth it. You may not like it, but their opinion carries a bit more weight than the DNC/DKos Talking Points Memo. You’re just wrong on this one.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  43. Comment by daleyrocks — 4/9/2009 @ 7:45 pm

    You probably need to explain this one to me. The state shouldn’t be a corporation, granted… but I’m not sure there’s any appreciable difference in President Obama’s view.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  44. Stashiu3 – I would prefer it if EdWood enumerates how the powers of a state differ from the powers of a corporation, unless he’s got all sorts of crazy notions about how businesses run a shadow government it shouldn’t be too tough. Think about taxes, force majeure, etc.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  45. I just took it as how both major parties have become addicted to an easy access to money, whether through campaign contributions or taxes being collected… not in the exercise of power or inherent authority. If that was his point, I would agree.

    Perhaps I’m reading it wrong, but it seems the entire comment was about learning that conservatives were not the caricature that the far-left portrayed them as.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  46. Daleyrocks #43- “The state is not a corporation. Think about the differences and try again, old chap”

    Well I was just being cynical there D’rocks. I suppose technically in communist countries the state isn’t formally a corporation but it does serve to enrich people at the top with varying benefits (or not) for the people at the bottom like a corporation so I made the comparison. I wasn’t being literal.

    Besides that bit was just not so important prologue to the rest of the comment which I suppose you didn’t like either.

    EdWood (b9af3b)

  47. “John Hitchcock takes us down memory lane to 2005 — 4 years and, oh, 2500 dead Americans ago. And yeah, the ’surge’ worked — enough force and bribes to tribal chieftains and local hacks can work wonders. Wasn’t it really worth those American lives and the obvious damage to the economy caused by Bush’s guns and butter policies?”

    In the last 100 years we’ve fought four major wars (WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam). The liberal Democrats got us into all four of them, and 600,000 Americans died (just about all of them forced into the armed forces by the draft, btw) in those wars.

    The not-quite-so-liberal Republicans have gotten us into a couple of little bitty wars in Iraq and Afghanistan with around 5,000 Americans killed (fought by volunteers, not people forced into the armed forces, with prison as the alternative).

    That pretty well sums it up as far as wars and casualties goes, except for mickey mouse ops like Grenada or the The Bay of Pigs, or whatever.

    I don’t know what political philosophy and party you’re going with, but I sure as hell know which ones I’m going with…and it sure as hell ain’t the liberal philosophy and the Democrat Party.

    I’m a peacenik at heart, and I think the draft is just another form of slavery, and I’m going with the guys who DON’T get us into huge wars, and DON’T get hundreds of thousands of Americans killed, and DON’T force millions of Americans into the military.

    Dave Surls (893845)

  48. BTW, anyone who thinks James Madison would support the policies of Barack Obama or any other liberal Democrat is out of their cotton-pickin’ minds.

    Dave Surls (893845)

  49. Cotton-Pickin’ = racist, fyi.

    carlitos (92022c)

  50. I’m glad your daughter served, and hopefully survived unscathed, John Hitchcock. Unfortunately a lot of other Americans served and were killed or seriously, life changingly wounded.

    Bush pursued a policy similar to his fellow Texan’s LBJ’s ‘guns and butter’. Big expenditure on war, big expenditure domestically, no general call to sacrifice. Not surprisingly we are getting an hangover from those policies. Too much economic stimulation, now the crash.

    Dave Surls, I agree with you as to party… unfortunately, Bush broke the Republican party just as surely as he broke the country. He managed to lose both houses of Congress and the presidency, if you haven’t noticed. His attempt to bring ‘liberal, market democracy’ to a tribal society was a big part of the reason why Republicans lost.

    horace (d4f6f9)

  51. I’m glad your daughter served

    Sure you do, sweetheart. But we’ve heard all of the usual “but we support the twooops” nostrums from your ilk previously here, many times over at this point. Try flinging your feces somewhere else more acceptable in the future.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  52. Before Hortense is allowed to post here again, we should ask him to do the following:

    – beg forgiveness from the readers here for his sliming of US servicemen and women;

    – present himself in front of this crowd;

    – drop his pants and bend over;

    – and kiss his own arse in repentence for his sins (h/t Braveheart) .

    Sound good?

    Dmac (49b16c)

  53. Nah, just have him enlist in the Corps and train as an 0311 and volunteer to for a tour in Afghanistan.

    After his tour is over, then he can speak again.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  54. After his tour is over, then he can speak again.

    He’d never make it through basic training, not with all that compulsive bed – wetting.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  55. “Dave Surls, I agree with you as to party… unfortunately, Bush broke the Republican party just as surely as he broke the country.”

    Better Bush than Gore or Kerry is the way I see it.

    Dave Surls (0daadb)

  56. There’s a new column in the UK Telegraph entitled:

    “Barack Obama: President Pantywaist–new surrender monkey on the block”

    Excerpts:

    “President Barack Obama has recently completed the most successful foreign policy tour since Napoleon’s retreat from Moscow. . .”

    “. . .Watch out, France and Co, there is a new surrender monkey on the block and, over the next four years, he will spectacularly sell out the interests of the West with every kind of liberal-delusionist initiative on nuclear disarmament. . .”

    [via Hot Air]

    Official Internet Data Office (7d4e4c)

  57. I’m glad your daughter served

    Sure you do, sweetheart.

    Better work on your verb recognition, Dmac.

    Oh, and guys, I’ve done my time at the tip of the spear (which admittedly was the generally peaceful Clinton era, let’s just say I know the Balkans pretty well)

    horace (411ef0)

  58. 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq caused my daughter to sign on the dotted line. And since she arrived at Fort Lost in the Woods the day before her 18th birthday, two other people had to sign on the dotted line as well.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  59. Well, I hope young Ms. Hitchcock stays safe in her present tour and entire career.

    horace (411ef0)

  60. Oh, and guys, I’ve done my time at the tip of the spear

    Of course you did – like that’s not the de rigeur pavlovian response that we’ve witnessed ad nauseum over the past eight years. Next you’ll be telling us that you’re also a Concerned Christian Conservative, who always voted Republican, except this time…

    Dmac (49b16c)

  61. A liberal talk show host here in the Seattle area, Dave Ross, also has claimed that Obama is conservative, or to be precise, “pretty conservative”. (I haven’t figured out why Ross said that.)

    (Note to Eric Blair: Orwell did say that about the intelligentsia; many of you will be interested in the context.)

    Jim Miller (6c4f8c)

  62. Yes!
    Dennis Prager expands on this by saying that to believe some of the more ridiculous thoughts found on the Left requires an extensive background in Grad-School – something to the effect of:
    You have to have a PhD to be that stupid!

    AD - RtR/OS (f5b734)

  63. I’d like to know your service record Dmac. How about scanning your DD-214 and posting it online somewhere? Not your ASVAB or AFQL scores, that would no doubt be too embarrassing.

    Here’s a quick quiz. What’s an NEC , or an MOS? What’s an E-7 in the Marine Corp (in common language), what is the difference between the promotion process for an Army, Navy, Air Force E-7 and and Navy E-7? What does MCPON mean? What does REMF mean? What’s SCI? What does ‘groundhog day’ mean in the military context? Where is USAEUR HQ located? What major stateside university offers college credit courses at just about every military base we have world wide? What’s a ‘float’? Operation Southern Watch? Incirlik, what does that mean to you? What branch no longer has warrant officers? What is the proper form of address for a Navy warrant officer? What’s a ‘lifer light’? When was the 5th Fleet stood up? What does ‘stood up’ mean? What’s ‘the sack’? What is a ‘poopy suit’? Camp Bondsteel, where is it? Where is DLI West? And best of all

    Why do they teach Modern Hebrew there?

    horace (d4f6f9)

  64. And, why should we care?

    AD - RtR/OS (f5b734)

  65. Cuz I think Dmac, SPQR, JD are like most neocons, chickenhawks who have never spent a day in their country’s uniform.

    horace (d4f6f9)

  66. I prove to horace attacking me on military issues was a bad idea so now he has to find someone else to attack on military issues instead of admitting he’s dead wrong on them.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  67. horace,

    Most people have never been in uniform. Take your chickenhawk slur, fold it up until it is all sharp corners, then promote yourself to E-7 (to coin a phrase). Want to pit your military time against mine since that seems to give you Absolute Moral Authority© over anyone who didn’t serve?

    The only people I’ve ever heard use the term chickenhawk were chickenshits. It’s a cowardly term only meant to stifle free speech. The only thing that might make me doubt you ever served is if you don’t take it back like an honorable veteran would.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  68. Hortense, me thinks, has bitten off much more than he can comfortably chew here.

    NeoCons?
    ChickenHawks?

    He is fortunate that, being Good Friday, it is a slow blog day, or we might have to call the para-medics to keep him alive.

    AD - RtR/OS (f5b734)

  69. I’d like to know your service record Dmac

    Nice strawman, Hortense. Now please point to where I ever claimed any military service, and also indicate the times where I slimed the men and women who serve our country with honor. Additionally, your voluminous regurgitation of military terms is not fooling anyone here (are you reciting from a Tom Clancy novel?) – we’ve seen it all before, and also performed much more convincingly.

    If you are who you claim to be, you’d never have engaged us in this issue in the first place. Your tone of extreme defensiveness of your response indicates otherwise.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  70. Cuz I think Dmac, SPQR, JD are like most neocons, chickenhawks

    Yeah, that’s exactly the way all military veterans talk to civilians – consider yourself pantsed, defrocked and uncloaked, Hortense. Your beclowning is now complete.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  71. Reminded of an old saying….

    Those that talk about it don’t know,
    and those who know don’t talk about it.

    AD - RtR/OS (f5b734)

  72. AD, one of my friends didn’t disclose his service in Vietnam until I’d known him for over two years; another waited almost four years until I learned of his tours of duty.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  73. #72 Dmac:

    consider yourself pantsed, defrocked and uncloaked, Hortense. Your beclowning is now complete.

    That one wasn’t even worth bothering to question its boney fidees.

    So now, we have a anti-Semitic, racist liar on our hands.

    Lovely.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  74. This will probably end up a duplicate comment… the original is lost in the filter I think (for the cussword probably, I rarely use them). It shows up on my page though, so here it is again:

    horace,

    Most people have never been in uniform. Take your chickenhawk slur, fold it up until it is all sharp corners, then promote yourself to E-7 (to coin a phrase). Want to pit your military time against mine since that seems to give you Absolute Moral Authority© over anyone who didn’t serve?

    The only people I’ve ever heard use the term chickenhawk were chickensh*ts. It’s a cowardly term only meant to stifle free speech. The only thing that might make me doubt you ever served is if you don’t take it back like an honorable veteran would.

    Comment by Stashiu3 — 4/10/2009 @ 6:18 pm

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  75. Stash – It is a dead giveaway, isn’t it?

    JD (1ec03c)

  76. I never once during my service ever heard the word chickenhawk. I also have never heard the word neocon used in any manner in which the word has any meaning. Generally, when someone used those terms, you are pretty safe in dismissing them out of hand, especially when they are used in the manner in which horace used them.

    FWIW, it is not called DLI West, it is simply DLI, at The Presidio of Monterey. I spent 20+ months there. If you do not know why they teach modern Hebrew there, then you are truly ignert. They also teach Spanish, French, Italian, Farsi, MS Arabic with multiple dialects, Russian, Japanese, Mandarin, German, and literally countless others.

    Stash, EW1, and others have forgotten more about honorable service today than you have ever known.

    JD (1ec03c)

  77. People must get that “Dr. Strangelove” stereotype in their head, but someone who was active-duty should know better. It’s a coward’s tactic.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  78. You’re wrong JD, unless thins have changed since I got out. There is a DLI East. It’s harder to find on the internet though. And either you are slow and got ‘rolledback’ or you didn’t spend 20 months there, at least as a student.

    EW1(SG( is just bitter, as most lifers who don’t make chief are.

    horace (d4f6f9)

  79. I was rolled back, during a 16 month Arabic program, asshat, as I had knee surgery. Not one time did I hear it called DLI West. Not once. And I really hate being accused of being a liar by such an asshat like yourself.

    JD (410197)

  80. And that is the last comment I will direct at this clown. You are not even worthy of mockery and scorn.

    JD (410197)

  81. Notice horace rolled right past Stashiu3’s comment without so much as an acknowledgment?

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  82. Hortense was pegged as a lying douchebag from the start – no evidence has been presented to suggest otherwise. Happy Easter, now go mount your bunny as usual.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  83. EW1(SG( is just bitter, as most lifers who don’t make chief are.

    LOL!

    First of all, not a lifer. Made EW1 in just over 4 years, was qualled Inport OOD fully two years before making EW1, qualified SG in 62 days.

    IOW, I had a grand old time. But I did leave active duty to pursue interests in private enterprise. I’ve explained elsewhere why EW1(SG) is a unique nic, and truth be told, there is a great deal of sentimental attachment to it as well, since I tacked on the “SG” part while patrolling with my brother (who rose from Seaman Recruit to Lieutenant Commander).

    And as JD mentions, in the thirty years that I’ve been around the military, both active and inactive duty, and another decade and a half in military research, I’ve never once heard of anything called “DLI West,” which would be well nigh impossible for me to miss~considering the rather close relationship between EWs and CTs.

    As JD would point out, you are a mendoucheous asshat.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  84. Hmmph. Dropped a </i> in there someplace.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  85. horace,

    EW1(SG) is not a lifer and served with both pride and honor. You’ve not shown yourself fit to walk anywhere his shadow has fallen you coward. You didn’t even acknowledge being wrong about JD serving, although it’s really irrelevant. Unless you’d like to reconsider putting your military time up against mine, since most people never join the service you can’t dismiss them based solely on that. We could compare awards if you like. I’ve gotten more than one for heroism but don’t consider myself a hero. Maybe rank, since you were so concerned about EW1(SG)’s? I’ve been an E-1, an NCO, and made it to field-grade officer. How about ASVAB scores? I’m in MENSA, so I obviously test well… I’ll put my GT up against yours any time. If having higher military cred gives someone the right to dismiss others, we can continue.

    Trying to shut people up using the chickenhawk canard means you’ve got nothing. Rather than do the honorable thing and take it back, you double-down? That’s like bluffing in blackjack. If you did actually serve and weren’t kicked out, you should be ashamed. Any time you have the audacity to point to your military service, you should be reminded of this. You’ve disgraced yourself, even if you’re too far gone to recognize it.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  86. Stashiu3, should I give MENSA another chance? I went to a meet-up years ago and it seemed kinda nerdy. Now that I’m kinda nerdy, maybe I should try again?

    Just looking for an opinion, preferably from one of you chickenhawk neocon fascists :)

    carlitos (92022c)

  87. Hey EW1(SG),

    I started writing that before I saw your comment. I’ve never heard of DLI East either. Must be some nickname he made up with his buddies to pretend they were just as good as the real DLI. horace sounds just like the “Adjustment Disorder” folks that just couldn’t cut it in the military. He might have a full enlistment with an honorable discharge, but I notice that he only wanted to see if Dmac had a DD214 and didn’t offer to show his own. Something strikes me interesting about that.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  88. Stashiu3, should I give MENSA another chance?

    Truly, you’re asking the wrong person. I get the newsletters and magazines, but I’ve never been to a meeting. To be honest, I only joined because I could and it looked good on my bio (vanity really). I’m not social enough to stand being around a lot of people, I greatly prefer staying at home with the family. I hear the food is good though!

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  89. but I notice that he only wanted to see if Dmac had a DD214 and didn’t offer to show his own. Something strikes me interesting about that

    It’s just more of the same old sh-t, Stashiu – back when I was a regular at Cathy’s World, we had another frequent commenter who went by the name of Ody (short for Odysseus), who was currently serving overseas (on his second tour) for the Army in Iraq. It was obvious back then (as you well know), that things were pretty difficult for anyone serving over there, yet many trolls came onto the site to toss feces at Ody and at anyone else who defended him (not that he needed it). Killbot, torturer, killer of innocents, then the evergreen Chickenhawk meme – the whole routine was trotted out, every time.

    But they always lead their rants off with the ever – popular “but we support the troops!” inanity.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  90. #89 Stashiu3:

    Something strikes me interesting about that.

    Same here.

    To clarify just a bit: I have never before heard DLI at Monterey called “DLI West.” When I was a young pup in EW school, some of the CTIs were scheduled to go to the “other” DLI, but I don’t remember where it was located or if its even still open. It is the kind of trivia that you could dredge up on the innertubes, though.

    And subsequently, whenever anyone referenced “DLI,” they meant Monterey.

    And I will freely admit that my brother is a “lifer.” The best kind, though, one who has a calling to the defense of the rest of us and is willing to pursue that goal no matter the personal cost. So, for someone to call me a “lifer,” just makes me respond “I wish.”

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  91. He might have a full enlistment with an honorable discharge, but I notice that he only wanted to see if Dmac had a DD214 and didn’t offer to show his own. Something strikes me interesting about that.

    Perhaps John Kerry has been posting here in disguise this whole time and we never realized it?

    Another Chris (a3bb8f)

  92. google search for defense language institute shows a DLI in Wash DC where they teach low density languages like Afrikaans… not that I really care to validate horace, but it is simply interesting to my curious mind that in 2007 Afrikaans was considered useful enough to train in.

    SteveG (9f6f79)

  93. #94 SteveG:

    google search for defense language institute shows a DLI in Wash DC

    For some reason I’m thinking that it was at Langeley back in the day, but as you noted it teaches low density languages.

    Afrikaans? Well, South Africa is still the African continent’s preeminent economic power, so far as I know…so for planning purposes it would make some sense.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  94. The existence of a “DLI East” was not being questioned. I have never been there, but always assumed it was @ Meade. Its existence does not mean that there is a DLI West. It is DLI. I heard it called PoM by the locals.

    JD (dfb69f)

  95. In the pre-Tonkin days that date myself, the AF would send enlisted personnel to one of three (IIRC) places for language training: UofSyracuse, UofIndiana, and DLI @ The Presidio.
    I’m sure many things have changed over the years since.
    After all, we were just transitioning from cap&ball to breech loaders then –
    or was it the otherway around (with Curt LeMay, you could never quite know).

    AD - RtR/OS (2b04d5)

  96. Here’s another conservative position from the new “conservative” surrender monkey in town:

    Vatican blocks Caroline Kennedy appointment as US ambassador

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/5138135/Vatican-blocks-Caroline-Kennedy-appointment-as-US-ambassador.html

    The Vatican has already teed off on Granny McRictusbotoxface, so at least they’re being consistent.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  97. Perhaps Duh-1 could appoint Princess Caroline as Chief of Protocol (it is of ambassadorial rank)?
    But, of course, that would imply that he actually wants to be knowledgeable of, and in compliance with, the dictates of protocol.

    AD - RtR/OS (2b04d5)

  98. Perhaps the real face of conservatism is the administration of George Bush? Theft of elections, deliberate disenfranchisement of minorities, Justice Department bent to the will of political considerations, outing of CIA agents and the cover up thereafter, wars for fake reasons, replaced by other equally fake reasons, no bid contracts to administration favorites, deregulation of the financial industry and tax cuts to benefit the very wealthiest, torture and imprisonment, unlimited power assumed by the Chief Executive, massive debt, negligence leading to 9/11, gutting of environmental regulations, denial of science…all capped off with appeals to Christian values!!.. Or is it the cigar smoking, drug taking, womanizing, out of shape blowhard Rush Limbaugh who is now the unofficial head of the Republican party and openly wishes for more economic misery so his merry band of Dittoheads can get back the power the once had but squandered like drunken fools?

    VietnamEraVet (04b9ee)

  99. VEV – Let’s explore the specifics of one or two of your allegations about Bush. Can you back any of the up?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  100. Look at the size of that steaming sphincter! It had to come from a hippobottumos.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  101. You know, it was starting to get really pleasant here, and then it all goes to $hit!

    AD - RtR/OS (2b04d5)

  102. VeV, Bush isn’t President anymore. Perhaps this is difficult to comprehend for someone whose online handle refers to something they did 40 years ago, but you really should try. It’s 2009.

    carlitos (92022c)

  103. 100 really delusional, aren’t you? I won’t even attempt what others here can do far more ably as far as rebuttal. I live in moonbat central bobby wexler’s district and many of the asstards here sound like you. It matters not to you that selected-not-elected bushHitler was deemed properly elected after ballot recounts by a number of leftist rags. Oh yeah, you believe Oliver Stoned’s bullshit and fantasize about anal sex manage a trois with Michael Moore and Teh One? And no doubt you are one of those cold-blooded child killers with the Genghis Khan mindset immortalized by fellow traitor Sen .Lurch. Bwaahhhhhh. They are doing wonders with mental health these days- you should change your shrink, meds and dosages. Either that are go cave jumping sans a chute.

    aoibhneas (0c6cfc)

  104. I think VEV pretty much cuts and pastes and spams comments sections with the same meme everywhere. The basic message never changes. The one time it stayed around to talk its butt was handed to it.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  105. “wars for fake reasons”

    You mean the hundreds of bombing raids the United States flew against Iraq when Bill Clinton was president were for fake reasons?

    Shouldn’t we chastise him, or something?

    Dave Surls (360f28)

  106. VEV – Seek help. Please.

    JD (34eca7)

  107. You mean the hundreds of bombing raids the United States flew against Iraq when Bill Clinton was president were for fake reasons?

    Shouldn’t we chastise him, or something?

    Well…..Bill Clinton didn’t start a war. He was executing his policy of containment, a policy that from time to time required a few air strikes, and a policy that has been verified as being successful. This is just like when you guys insist that Clinton thought he had weapons, too, and sit there with smug looks on your faces actually believing you just made a point. You didn’t.

    TEH NARRATIVE (863676)

  108. “This is just like when you guys insist that Clinton thought he had weapons”

    TEH – Clinton actually stated Saddam had WMD. Update your narrative. It is a point the left fails to acknowledge.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  109. TEH – Clinton actually launched 400+ cruise missiles against Iraq to take out the WMD in Operation Wag the Dog. Did you forget about that?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  110. TEH – Clinton actually stated Saddam had WMD. Update your narrative. It is a point the left fails to acknowledge.

    I know that Clinton thought Saddam had weapons. But he didn’t invade Iraq. The conservatives always trot that point out like it means something, but it doesn’t. That Clinton conducted airstrikes against Iraq is similarly meaningless.

    TEH NARRATIVE (863676)

  111. Well…..Bill Clinton didn’t start a war. He was executing his policy of containment, a policy that from time to time required a few air strikes,

    I’m wondering how hundreds of air strikes isn’t a war.

    wars for fake reasons, replaced by other equally fake reasons

    Here’s an exercise for you: go find the Authorization for the Use of Military Force in Iraq. Tell us which of the dozen or so reasons in it were fake, and why.

    Steverino (b12c49)

  112. Well…..Bill Clinton didn’t start a war.

    Nice strawman – of course, totally different context regarding Clinton’s actions. Just like comparing apples to apples, eh?

    He was executing his policy of containment

    Really? So he was just executing his policy of containment when he intervened in the Balkan war, yes? Gee, what happened when the Serbs started calling him an Imperialist Warmonger all of a sudden? Or did you conveniently forget that little conflict, right in the heart of Europe?

    and sit there with smug looks on your faces

    Given your inane responses so far, how can we help ourselves? Should we instead look at you more in sorrow than condescension? How about a compassionate head – tilt?

    Dmac (1ddf7e)

  113. “That Clinton conducted airstrikes against Iraq is similarly meaningless.”

    Bwahahahahahahah!!!!!!111!!!eleventy!!11!!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  114. The conservatives always trot that point out like it means something, but it doesn’t.

    Right – so facts don’t matter in your little world. How nice for you.

    That Clinton conducted airstrikes against Iraq is similarly meaningless

    I see – why don’t you ask the Kurds about that, or perhaps Saddam’s former operatives now in custody?

    Goodness, but you are a massive tool.

    Dmac (1ddf7e)

  115. Daley, I don’t think he’s even heard of the Balkan War – too much time on the Short Bus.

    Dmac (1ddf7e)

  116. “I’m wondering how hundreds of air strikes isn’t a war.”

    I’ve been wondering about that myself for years.

    http://www.ccmep.org/usbombingwatch/1999.htm

    http://www.ccmep.org/usbombingwatch/2000.htm

    How could president Bush have started a war with Iraq when the Clinton administration was bombing Iraq on a regular basis right up ’til the day President Clinton left office?

    Did President Clinton bomb Iraq for real reasons, make peace with Iraq on his last day in office, and then George Bush came in and started a new war with Iraq for fake reasons?

    I find this very puzzling.

    Dave Surls (360f28)

  117. Someone left the doors unlocked at the place with the padded walls. Old Gary is off its rocker.

    Facts? Meh.

    JD (07e55f)

  118. “unlimited power assumed by the Chief Executive”

    Here’s another thing that’s puzzling. During WWII not-too-conservative president Roosevelt “assumed” the power to conscript millions of people into the military, to subject our civil population to rationing of all kinds of goods (gasoline, rubber, nylon…you name it), to send innocent people off to concentration camps with the wave of his pen, to tell newspapers what they could and couldn’t print…and a whole lot more.

    George Bush didn’t have the power to do any of that kind of stuff…so what “unlimited” power did he assume, exactly?

    Darned if I can figure it out.

    Dave Surls (360f28)

  119. The fact that Saddam used poison gas against his own people, similarly meaningless. There was no proof there were ever WMD.

    TEH has completely beclowned himself. He is now in same league as VEV.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  120. “I know that Clinton thought Saddam had weapons. But he didn’t invade Iraq.”

    I’m not sure I quite understand this. Are you saying that it’s o.k. to conduct airstrikes against a country, as long as you don’t invade it?

    Does that mean that president Roosevelt was a bad man because instead of just bombing Germany from our bases in the UK, he sent ground forces in to invade North Africa, Sicily, Italy and France?

    Please explain.

    Dave Surls (360f28)

  121. He was executing his policy of containment,

    Actually, TEH NARRATIVE, Clinton instituted a policy of regime change in Iraq….not simple containment.

    Steverino (b12c49)

  122. When Pockeestanees complain about Obama’s drones bombing and killing innocent civilians inside their territory according to TEH’s logic he should tell them to get fucked because Clinton did it to Iraq all the time and it’s not considered war. Heck the lefties aren’t even screaming it creating more terrorists anymore. Funny thing that.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  123. Steverino – facts never get in the way of Teh Narrative.

    JD (cb9226)

  124. I know, JD…but he looks so cute when he’s trying to squirm out of his own words.

    Steverino (b12c49)

  125. But they do not try to squirm out of them. Like with horace, they simply walk away, and when they come back, they simply ignore how colossally wrong they were, like it never happened. No brain, no conscience, no pain.

    JD (cb9226)

  126. It is our duty to make sure truly collosal stupidity like that above is preserved for posterity and thrown back in their faces.

    It’s patriotic!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  127. Anyway, post #100 is a big bunch of lies.

    Looks like a liberal doing what liberals do best.

    Dave Surls (fad3d4)

  128. I dont think I ever called you a liar, JD. I did call you a chickebnhawk, and I apologize as you obviously served. I still think you are deluded as to the Iraq war.

    close relationship between EWs and CTs

    Hope that wasn’t too close there LPO.

    And guys, there really is a DLI east, I know/worked with people that took Albanian there back in the day. Which is why I made the distinction.

    Also, just like nobody calls USC the University of Southern California, but that’s its name, so too is the DLI at Monterey really DLI West, or actually DLIFLC.

    horace (d4f6f9)

  129. hortense is still having “accidents” –
    it’s a shame they don’t have a medication for that.

    AD - RtR/OS (45271e)

  130. horace is still a coward, still comes with nothing, still thinks the chickenhawk slur is valid against anyone who didn’t serve, still doesn’t want to compare service or other qualifications, still makes a distinction that his of his own making and can’t show anything or anyone besides himself referring to DLI as DLI West, and (just to emphasize it) still a coward.

    In horace’s world President Obama, Speaker Pelosi, Senator Reid, and most Dem leaders are chickenhawks since they’re running wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but have never served. How about it horace? Are they chickenhawks, or are you just trying to silence people who disagree with you under some pretense of authority as a veteran?

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  131. “I did call you a chickebnhawk”

    Whoop-di-do. Presidents Wilson and Roosevelt (the second one) never served a day in the military, and, obviously, they supported the wars that they presided over.

    So, how big of an insult can that be?

    Dave Surls (fad3d4)

  132. #130 Stashiu3:

    or are you just trying to silence people who disagree with you under some pretense of authority as a veteran?

    I’m gonna stick with that door, Stash!

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  133. The existence of a DLI East does not mean that the commonly known one in Monterey is called DLI West. Thank you for the apology. And though you did not overtly call me a liar, you questioned my honesty. A distinction without a difference. But again, thanks for kind of manning up and admitting your mistake.

    JD (7558c8)

  134. “Anybody who reads the New Yorker deserves what he gets.”
    If you read the New Yorker, you get:
    a. News
    b. Reviews
    c. Poetry
    d. Cartoons
    e. Liberal bias so insidious that the magazine should not be read at all, lest it corrupt the mind of the reader
    f. Herpes

    Eric H. (62863d)


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