Patterico's Pontifications

3/10/2009

The “What, Me Worry?” Administration… and its Critics

Filed under: General — Karl @ 11:38 am



[Posted by Karl]

At National Review, Rich Lowry makes the point the establishment media seems bent on avoiding:

“[T]he stock market has lost roughly 25 percent of its value in the past two months, destroying more than $2.6 trillion of wealth. But at least President Obama is calm.

***

His Treasury secretary, Tim Geithner, has gone from being such an indispensable man that he could get away with cheating on his taxes to serving as the butt of Saturday Night Live skits in the space of six weeks. His vague and unconvincing bank-rescue plan tanked the market, while he hasn’t yet fully staffed the upper echelons of his department. The New York Times reports of him and his team, “Some worry that political and financial constraints have made them reluctant to grapple with the full magnitude of the crisis.” If Obama worries, he does it calmly.

Fred Barnes also notices, at least in passing:

He talks about “hard choices” but hasn’t made any… Despite glitches in picking his cabinet, his cool demeanor is unshaken. He governs campaign-style, largely with speeches and announcements. No wonder he enjoys being president. Accountability comes later.

But there’s a problem. Candidates don’t have to deal with reality. They talk about the wonderful things they can accomplish as if advocating them is the same as achieving them. They live in a world of political make-believe in which everything from reconciling conflicting interests to paying for costly programs is easy.

Generations of Americans are seeing their retirement savings vanish, while Pres. Obama dismisses it as a “tracking poll” — another campaign based metaphor.  The ginned-up attacks on Rush Limabugh, Bobby Jindal, etc., have also been revealed as the Obama White House in perpetual campaign mode.

Barack Obama is not a Manchurian President; he is acting in accord with his lifetime of Leftist politics.  He is pushing the New New Deal, while letting our financial and economic crises fester, much to the chagrin of Obama fans like Jim Cramer. (update: And Warren Buffett.)

The conventional wisdom may already be starting to turn against Pres. Obama.  Someone ought to be asking what conservatives and Republicans have been doing.  The Senate GOP has been complacent in approving a tax cheat to oversee the Treasury, while the David Frums spend more time attacking people necessary to a future majority than commenting on the trainwreck being engineered in Washington. 

Internal debate among conservatives and Republicans is not only healthy, but necessary.  Nevertheless, if Cramer can put aside his affinity for Obama’s agenda to attack his misplaced priorities, the Right ought to be able to muster the same sense of focus.    If Nero is fiddling at the Barackopolis, the Right should be sounding the fire alarm, instead of dancing to his tune.  Pres. Obama is very good at dismissing the obstacles to his ascent as “distractions.”  The Right needs to get better at recognizing the distractions being placed in their path.  Until they do, Obama will remain calm.

Update: Behold the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy.  In contrast, as Ronald Reagan once said, “my 80 percent friend is not my 20 percent enemy.”

–Karl

195 Responses to “The “What, Me Worry?” Administration… and its Critics”

  1. I fail to see what the Loyal Opposition can do in the present circumstances, Karl.

    Impeach Captain Bull-Puckey (Bowlderized for your protection) for malfeasance, non-feasance and general mopery? And leave Joe Biden (or even better, Nancy) in charge?

    NOT an option, which is why Slow Joe is there in the first place – insurance.

    So yes, sound the alarm. But don’t expect the fire department to come a-runnin’ – they’re busy playing “world saver”…

    “Old man get some soldiers, keep them close at hand
    There’s a fire in the country, there’s a flame come to the land
    Seven thousand loyal troops, in ranks they stretch so far
    With seven thousand well armed men, no one can touch the czar”
    — Paul Kantner, “Flowers of the Night”

    mojo (8096f2)

  2. Karl – Do you know how long it takes to read one of your posts on a Blackberry, with all of those links? 😉

    JD (0c1fee)

  3. The one thing the Republicans can and should be doing is purging their ranks of people who are still putting social conservatism before economic issues.

    When the time comes, in 2010, to hold Obama to account, we need to have a united front, and a message of “free markets, free enterprise and free people.”

    In an ideal world, we’d even have Gingrich running again for a Georgia Congress seat, and indirectly for Speaker. With a Plan.

    But we cannot remain the religious party and win.

    Kevin Murphy (805c5b)

  4. mojo,

    A consistent image of wanting to discuss the issues on the minds of people not marinated in politics — while the other side wants to talk about anything else — would be a good start.

    If the Fire Dept. is incompetent, a lot of people should be saying so. And spending more time on it than arguing among themselves.

    Karl (983a67)

  5. JD,

    No, I didn’t. Is there a mobile tech that would make things easier to read?

    Karl (983a67)

  6. Kevin,

    Social issues were not remotely at the forefront of the last election. McCain certainly wasn’t the first or second choice of the Religious right. I haven’t seen examples of prominent Republicans pushing them since.

    The balance between social cons and libertarians will get hashed out over time. But the Right would be better served focusing on Obama’s disastrous start than having its factions entirely bound up in jockeying for intraparty position at the moment.

    Karl (983a67)

  7. Karl – I was joking. On my notebook, I can open the links in seperate tabs, not so easy on a phone. Great stuff, as usual. Racist.

    JD (0c1fee)

  8. I think we’re starting to see the honeymoon end for Obama. Rasmussen has his poll numbers down to 56% approval, and the gap between strongly approve and strongly disapprove is narrowing.

    People are starting to wake up and not like what they see. Many people who voted for Obama were fooled by HopeAndChangeTM, and are now starting to have buyer’s remorse.

    Public opinion is not changed in a day, but the trends are starting to show the worry of the American People.

    Sal (3e2836)

  9. This is something that’s been beaten to death, I’m sure, and something usually dismissed by regular commenters on this site (because it’s usually voiced by liberals assumed to be sowing dissension rather than promoting honest debate), but I hope I’ve built up enough social capital on this site to have it taken seriously:

    What the fuck?

    I’d like to see good-faith conservatives admit that the fiasco we’re in right now is indeed traceable (in large part) to the malfeasance of the Bush Administration – in addition to the malfeasance of Congress (Democratic and Republican), the Clinton Administration, and, yes, the Obama Administration.

    And, for what it’s worth, contrasting the way our President ran his campaign to the way he’s running our government bugs the shit out of me, too. After all, it’s my generation that gets to pay for all of this…

    Leviticus (fee101)

  10. He talks about “hard choices” but hasn’t made any…

    Precisely! I’d like to see reporters ask Obama to describe what hard choices are in his budget. The (non)answer should be amusing.

    A hearty second to Kevin Murphy on putting economic issues before social issues. But of course a Libertarian would say that.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R., (536d19)

  11. Just to clarify, that Libertarian I was referring to was me.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R., (536d19)

  12. But we cannot remain the religious party and win.

    Comment by Kevin Murphy — 3/10/2009 @ 12:00 pm

    And you also can’t win a dog catcher’s appointment without Conservative Christians—who also happen to have “economic issues”.

    Rovin (a5d8b7)

  13. Again, if you want the Right to focus on the economy, going after the Left for what they are doing to it would be a good place to start. Any political rewards therefrom would redound to the economic conservatives.

    Complaining about social cons, otoh, does not further economic conservativism. Instead, casual citizens will see an opposition more interested in arguing among themselves than in the economy.

    There will be plenty of time for arguing among ourselves when there are actual elections and candidates on the horizon.

    Karl (983a67)

  14. Note: Post updated.

    Karl (983a67)

  15. I can’t help but wonder how important our votes will be in future elections. The coalition of illegal voters, imaginary voters, and people dependent on government handouts is going to be a formidable juggernaut on election day. There has always been election fraud but when has it been practiced on such a massive scale and so blatantly in the open. It now seems to be an accepted campaign technique.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  16. The weak stock market definitely poses a big risk to Obama. But the problem for Republicans is that Americans think “aw man, if only there was an alternative other than the party that sucked big time from 2001 to 2009.”

    Dissaccociating most Republicans from Bush Jr., seen as one of the worst presidents of all time, will be a very, very difficult task.

    Andrew (1c5c15)

  17. On the fringe of this topic is today’s MiracleGro market pop. There’s been a bear rally bubbling under the surface for a few weeks now. But a lot selling into strength has worked to hold it down. Now if it finally gains some traction for a few months with say the Dow back to 8k, then we’ll likely start hearing a big, old ‘whew’ from the CNN type bulls who were giggling like school girls this morning I understand. Then the pressure gets temporarily lifted off these insane stimulus packages since there’ll be a cacophony on the Street and in DC…see, see, it worked!! Keep an eye on the financial etf XLF, if it holds up for a few weeks or so, some sort of bear rally should be good to go. Another bubble I’m watching and expecting to burst is long US Treasurys. Inflation would be back on the front burners. Stag, or even plain old.

    The combatants I see are debt deflation and monetary expansion. The black hole of debt has so far been sucking in a lot of printed up paper. These stimulus deals call for a ramping of dollar supply which provoke inflation. Thrust and parry. Japan circa mid-1990’s revisited maybe…

    allan (eae61f)

  18. “He talks about “hard choices” but hasn’t made any… Despite glitches in picking his cabinet, his cool demeanor is unshaken.”

    Karl – Duuuude. He’s on dope. Smoking a lot of weed will give you a cool demeanor. He just doesn’t give a shit. Don’t kid yourself.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  19. Andrew,
    I am very disgusted with the Republicans in the legislative branch and agree that serious housecleaning is in order, but as much as I may have issues with Bush I can’t help but feel that the people who would call him the worst president or anything close to it are the same ones who rank Clinton as the best and would smear any Republican president. To even compare Bush to the damage done to our country by Carter or Clinton is a bit deranged, IMO. Clinton put 100,000,000 Americans under a Chinese nuclear sword of Damocles for money while Bush offended Iran by defending America from terrorist attacks? I’ll stand on Bush’s record, with all it’s faults, over any Democratic president in over half a century.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  20. I just read that Obama’s going to visit Europe March 31 – April 5. I wonder whether Great Britain will give him a set of DVDs.

    Steverino (69d941)

  21. The perfect storm for national breakdown (or whatever apocalyptic term you prefer). I’m beginning to think enough people want this to happen. The Left always has, somewhat; and the Right is just fed up, with compromises, with its crappy, craven leadership, with watching the slow decay of society, and sees the purgative possibilities in total collapse. I think their is enough sef-loathing, bad faith, exasperation and enervation out there to bring it about.

    rrpjr (85ab74)

  22. aw man, if only there was an alternative other than the party that sucked big time from 2001 to 2009.”

    Yet another in long list of brilliant observations by the village idiot.

    Regarding Buffet’s not – too sanguine comments yesterday, the MSM is pooh – poohing and/or mostly downplaying his criticisms. They will not let their Messiah be brought down by mere financial geniuses.

    Japan circa mid-1990’s revisited maybe…

    Perish the thought, Allan – didn’t they experience something like zero to negative growth for the better part of a decade?

    Dmac (49b16c)

  23. Yesterday, it was “Obama’s overwhelmed!!!” Today, it’s “Obama’s underwhelmed!!!” What will it be tomorrow?

    Whatever tomorrow’s talking point is, I’m taking bets that it will be consistent with the theme of desperate grasping for relevance and deep denial.

    Blaming Obama for declining stock prices has to be one of the grandest exercises in denial ever promoted by a major political party. Or simply fresh evidence that the GOP is no longer major.

    Polls show more than 80 percent of Americans say the economic collapse was not caused by Obama. People who haven’t buried themselves neck-deep in the wingnutosphere/talkradio/Fox world know that the economy was flat on its back 18 months ago. They’re sure to resent the suggestion that the Second Great Depression started on Jan. 20, 2009.

    Yet the noise machine lamely persists in trying to tag Obama as bad for stock prices, hallucinating to the point where they forget that George W. Bush presided over the worst stock market performance since the Great Depression.

    As for the conflict between religious and libertarian conservatives, that is one the GOP will have to work out, or at least tame, if it ever expects to rebuild. But it’s not the first order of business.

    The first order of business for the Republicans has to be ridding themselves of the faulty noise machine that gins up ever-more ludicrous memes of self-regard, self-pity and paranoia — like the whole absurd “stop hitting me please” response to Rush Limbaugh — and “Obama killed the stock market.”

    Wake up, it’s 2009, not 2001.

    The worm has turned and the tipping point has been reached: the same-old, same-old will get you nothing but the same-old circa 2006, i.e. electoral disgrace.

    The moral and political blank check you got from 9/11 was spent long ago and now you’re way overdrawn. The bank of public opinion wants its money back, but you keep telling them to sod off, the blank check is in the mail.

    Hax Vobiscum (4012df)

  24. Steverino, yeah, but they will only run on a PAL unit.

    carlitos (3f0da9)

  25. Andrew – Associating with reality will be a very difficult time for you, my man.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  26. Don’t worry, by 2010 the next round of vote-buying commences:

    We are going to need more taxpayer money,” Mark Zandi, the chief economist at Moody’s Economy.com and a key economic adviser to Congressional Democrats, said after the meeting. “I think another stimulus package is a reasonable assumption because of the way things are going.”

    House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), standing with members of her leadership team by Zandi’s side, said she agreed that another stimulus bill is being considered as an option.

    http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/house-dems-eyeing-another-stimulus-bill-2009-03-10.html

    Gird your loins indeed.

    Techie (9c008e)

  27. “Polls show more than 80 percent of Americans say the economic collapse was not caused by Obama.”

    “Blaming Obama for declining stock prices has to be one of the grandest exercises in denial ever promoted by a major political party.”

    Hax old boy, the above statements are not the same. Open your good eye and try following the news. A brain douche might help first.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  28. Hack should have posted a METAPHOR ALERT before I read his little turd.

    That’s high quality Journalism(tm) there. I expect only the finest.

    Techie (9c008e)

  29. I just love how Zandi’s now the go – to guy for blowing sunshine up the MSM’s economic arses anytime it’s convenient for him to do so – but never do they question Moody’s disgraceful negligence regarding giving out favorable ratings to banks (many of whom were among Moody’s clients) that were leveraged to the hilt with bad and unsecured debt. Hey, look over there!

    Dmac (49b16c)

  30. Techie – thanks for the iced tea on my monitor. Heh.

    carlitos (3f0da9)

  31. before I read his little turd.

    See, that’s your problem right there – most of us immediately scroll past his inanities. Life’s much too short to argue with a fool.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  32. People who haven’t buried themselves neck-deep in the wingnutosphere/talkradio/Fox world know that the economy was flat on its back 18 months ago

    18 Months Ago = September 2007.

    Dow Jones Industrial Average: ~13,900

    GDP:

    GDP Growth Strong in Q2
    September 4, 2007–The GDP grew at a 4.0% rate in the 2nd quarter, a welcome improvement from the weak 0.6% growth in the 1st quarter. Existing home sales fell 0.2% in July and are down 9.0% compared to a year ago. Concurrently, personal income rose 0.5% and the PCE deflator inched up only 0.1%.Lastly, factory orders increased a larger-than-expected 3.7%

    http://www.uschambermagazine.com/content/070904_e.htm

    Are you this obtuse in your professional work?

    Techie (9c008e)

  33. Dmac – The rating agencies appear to have skated through all of this. Pity.

    Shorter Hacks – Ignore all evidence of the stock market collapse since Barcky took office. It is Bush’s fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Techie – Facts are just speed bumps on the road to Teh Narrative.

    JD (e0cee6)

  34. Obama has turned out to be exactly what I knew he’d be. Unfortunately for most liberals and alot of RINO’s it’s just dawning on them.
    Obama is like the chick you met on the internet. Talked all sweet and sounded all nice and sexy, then……you found out she’s a guy.
    OBAMA UNMASKED, it’s not pretty.

    gus (36e9a7)

  35. #32 Hey JD.

    I get what your saying. Stock Market collapsed as a result of what investors expected from an Obama administration (Higher taxes, bad programs, Government Debt etc….etc.). It started Election day. I get all that, It’s the only explanation for a 49 day (Plus president elect time) on the job collapse. You are entitled to that opinion even though Hax and I disagree.

    But just for consistency’s sake JD, are you willing to admit that Obama had something to do with a stock market comeback in the future?

    I know, I know…… highly unlikely according to you (That opinion’s fine).

    But what if?

    Oiram (983921)

  36. The problem with the dimwitted mind is that it looks backward.
    Yes libtards George Bush was the very very worst President in the history of mankind and beyond. He was really really dumb, and an evil genius all wrapped up into one. Bush, Cheney and Rove out Valerie Plame, Barney Frank, Richard Simmons and Liberace.

    How does any of that make Big Ears Dumbama anything but a clown with cigarette breath?

    Let me know liberals? I’m still HOPING and CHANGIN.

    gus (36e9a7)

  37. I fully expect the stock market to come back in the future. It would have regardless of who is in office. They question is how far it tanks and for how long. I, Mario, like to believe that the American people and the economy are stronger than any occupant of the White House, no matter how misguided their policies are. The market has been abundantly clear as to how it views Barcky and Tax Cheat’s plans.

    JD (e0cee6)

  38. Hey 34 Obama is not going to bring the Stock Market back. Get a friggin clue.

    gus (36e9a7)

  39. purging their ranks of people

    That is a big help for a minority party. Let’s not be holding the circular firing squad meeting quite yet.

    At least there is some good economic news.

    Key signs of economic growth, attributed entirely, or almost entirely, to President Obama.

    1. Gun sales. The FBI reports background checks on the sale of firearms jumped 23 percent nationwide last month compared to February 2008. That follows a 28 percent rise in January and a 24 percent increase in December.

    2. Advertising revenues on Rush Limbaugh’s program. Rush Limbaugh’s audience is doubled and in January, his program had booked 80 percent of all 2008 revenue and “we’ll be over 2008 by the end of this month.”

    3. Attendance at conservative political conventions. Turnout at CPAC was 9,000 this year, up from 7,000 last year, when the president and vice president and major presidential candidates were in attendance.

    4. Ratings and advertising on CNBC: In the first two months of 2009, CNBC averaged 282,000 home viewers at any given time, up from 264,000 in the same period in 2008 and 233,000 in the same period in 2007. (CNBC says the Nielsen ratings undercounts its audience, as they do not measure out-of-home viewership on trading floors and offices.)

    So, it’s not all bad news.

    I did not include gold which is in the midst of a bull market that began in 2006. I wonder why ?

    Mike K (8df289)

  40. All Vobiscum really has to do is go down a short checklist of things happening and answer a few simple questions, but that’s too easy and honest for the old boy.

    Warren Buffet ass raping Obama over the stupidity of his economic recovery plans – Good or bad for the stock market?
    Raising personal income tax rates in the middle of a recession – Good or bad for the stock market?
    Raising corporate tax rates in the middle of a recession – Good or bad for the stock market?
    Phasing out personal deductions – Good or bad for the stock market?
    Eaising energy costs to consumers through cap and trade plan to fight nonexistant global warming in the middle of a recession – Good or bad for the stock market?

    I think it must hurt to be that stupid, which is why he’s always so angry.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  41. JD, the present market, aside from the dead cat bounce today, is below the 50% decline point from 1932 to present. That means that there is NO support level. The 1932 low was 41.

    Of course, that is a chartist reading of it. Value investors may be ready to buy but I don’t see many of them. Berkshire-Hathaway is down 55%.

    Mike K (f89cb3)

  42. Breaking news: Chas Freemen withdraws nomination.

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/03/chas-freeman-pu.html

    Best Transition EVAR!

    Techie (9c008e)

  43. daleyrocks, can you please re-write that with more metaphors? preferably all of them homoerotic, like “the worm has turned” etc.

    carlitos (3f0da9)

  44. Come on, daleyrocks. Raising personal income taxes, raising corporate taxes, phasing out personal deductions, and cap & trade are wonderful ideas in the midst of a recession.

    JD (e0cee6)

  45. Today’s bounce I think directly reflects Citi’s claiming of a “profit”, and any good news was immediately pounced upon.

    Techie (9c008e)

  46. #36 Your still avoiding my question with more rhetoric JD.

    The market has been abundantly clear as to how it views Barcky and Tax Cheat’s plans.

    Let’s try this:

    If the market makes a comeback within Obama’s administration, am I wrong to assume that it was abundantly clear as to how it viewed Obama?

    If you avoid the question again JD, it will confirm you as a partisan hack.

    I for my part am willing to admit that if Obama can’t fix the mess that I say was placed before him, then he has not done his job.

    Oiram (983921)

  47. Hey 34 Obama is not going to bring the Stock Market back. Get a friggin clue.

    Comment by gus — 3/10/2009 @ 2:29 pm

    I respect your opinion, all I’m asking is “What if he does?”.

    Oiram (983921)

  48. No, Mario. I was very clear. I think that the market will recover within Barcky’s reign. I think it would if Bush were still in office, and it would had McCain been elected. Right now, the question is the depth and the length of the recession, and whether the ideas of increasing taxes on people and companies, and introducing cap & trade in the midst of a recession is a good idea.

    JD (e0cee6)

  49. The question then would become “At What Cost?”.

    Does the amount of economic recovery justify the means and amount of government power/funding/etc that “went into it”?

    Unfortunately, that’s almost certainly a post-hoc judgment.

    Techie (9c008e)

  50. Techie – Concepts like that are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay above Mario’s pay grade.

    JD (e0cee6)

  51. According to the White House Transition Project, which tracks [presidential] appointments, there are some 1,200 government jobs that require Senate confirmation about 360 of which are considered policy jobs. Only about 70 of those jobs have been filled so far.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4950518/Three-more-Obama-nominees-withdraw-from-running.html

    That works out to be about 6%. Who is running Obama’s Administration?

    (Overwhelmed? underwhelmed? We report, you decide)

    Techie (9c008e)

  52. Blaming Obama for declining stock prices has to be one of the grandest exercises in denial ever promoted by a major political party.

    Hax, did you read Cramer’s article? Cramer’s hardly a Republican; in fact, he was an Obama supporter. Here’s what Cramer had to say:

    Look at the incredible decline in the stock market, in all indices, since the inauguration of the president, with the drop accelerating when the budget plan came to light because of the massive fear and indecision the document sowed: Raising taxes on the eve of what could be a second Great Depression, destroying the profits in healthcare companies (one of the few areas still robust in the economy), tinkering with the mortgage deduction at a time when U.S. house price depreciation is behind much of the world’s morass and certainly the devastation affecting our banks, and pushing an aggressive cap and trade program that could raise the price of energy for millions of people.

    The market’s the effect; much of what the president is fighting for is the cause. The market’s signal can’t be ignored. It’s too palpable, too predictive to be ignored, despite the prattle that the market’s predicted far more recessions than we have.

    Exactly what in that passage is incorrect?

    Steverino (69d941)

  53. #47 I get all that JD, believe me I do. The market has reacted to Obama.

    I still don’t understand why you are unwilling to admit that it could still react positively at some point.

    Sorry JD, but you nor I can tell with certainty what caused the depth and the length of the recession.

    Look investors today reacted to Citibank’s 2 month earning to the tune of 379 points regardless of Obama’s programs.

    What did Obama or Bush have to do with that? Do they share that “good news” credit since we’re talking about 2009 only?

    Oiram (983921)

  54. What did Obama or Bush have to do with that?

    Well, since the bank bailout was engineered under Bush, I’d say Bush gets the credit for that.

    Steverino (69d941)

  55. It could react positively should he do something that has not historically been anathema to the market. Read Cramer, a portion of which was posted above. A one day rise means nothing, Mario. A 2 month sustained sell off is far more telling. Should the market recover at a rate similar to its decline since Barcky’s policies were announced, and as a result of a change in policy, I would be happy to give him credit. As to not being able to tell with certainty about what caused the depth and length of a recession, that is complete hoo-ha. Raising taxes on people, businesses, and energy has never proven to be a successful strategy at minimizing the depth and length of a recession. Certainly, at some point, there will be a market correction.

    JD (e0cee6)

  56. #48 Does the amount of economic recovery justify the means and amount of government power/funding/etc that “went into it”?

    Yes, if the alternative is a severe depression caused by unregulated capitalism.

    I meant that’s what all of you have based Obama’s success on so far right? …. “The market”.

    I love it when you say things like “It’s above his pay grade” JD.

    I take it as a compliment, when I consider how Obama humbled himself by saying it when he did.

    The real beauty is he said it while people like you were calling him “The messiah”.

    Oiram (983921)

  57. if the market ever gets around to reacting positively, it will be DESPITE Ear Leader, not because of him and his idiotic policies.

    however, short of Congress refusing to enact some of them, that happening is about as likely as the sun rising in the west tomorrow morning.

    redc1c4 (9c4f4a)

  58. #54 Thanks JD, I take back what I said about you being a partisan hack.

    Oiram (983921)

  59. Wingnuts, by definition, will never credit Obama for anything good, just as they never blamed Bush for anything bad, other than not being wingnutty enough, and even that only came after he’d been pummeled into the lowest approval ratings since Nixon.

    But what about all those swing voters? The people who voted for Clinton, then Bush, then Obama.

    Alas, for these voters decided a year ago that the collapse was caused by the whole GOP package of deregulation and unnaturally low interest rates and, more generally, monumental incompetence at governing.

    With swing voters, Obama has a first-round freebie as regards both the economy and the two unwon wars.

    The worse the economy gets, the better Obama will look when it recovers and the worse his opponents will look for desperately trying to blame his administration.

    It’s a bit like 9/11 in that regard. Obama has been handed a huge reserve of political capital. He can afford to squander a lot and still have plenty left over.

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  60. Well, since the bank bailout was engineered under Bush, I’d say Bush gets the credit for that.

    Comment by Steverino — 3/10/2009 @ 3:11 pm

    But how dare they invest knowing that Obama’s higher taxes will eat into that profit?

    Oiram (983921)

  61. Did somebody fart?

    JD (e0cee6)

  62. Hack with his #58 shows quite clearly just how dishonest his argument is. The Right blamed Bush for a lot of things. But this did not happen in Hack’s fantasy world, so he thinks it did not happen in reality.

    Strawman fallacy? Hell, this is Manbearpig fallacy.

    SPQR (72771e)

  63. Moonbats, by definition, will never blame Obama for anything bad

    Hax – See what I did there?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  64. I still don’t understand why you are unwilling to admit that it could still react positively at some point.

    Better to remain silent and allow others to wonder whether you’re a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

    Are you this obtuse in your professional work?

    Our best collective guess is that he submits his work for publication in the Penthouse Forum Letters.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  65. Well it looks like Jimmy Carter is no longer the worst President the US ever had, a new democrat will proudly take that title.

    Its kinda funny how illiberals compare Obambi to Lincoln and Reagan both republicans, I guess they couldn’t find a democrat that was worth a shit.

    And nothing has changed.

    ML (14488c)

  66. “Sorry JD, but you nor I can tell with certainty what caused the depth and the length of the recession.”

    Oiram – I can, but that information is worth some serious coin. Are you willing to pay?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  67. #54 Should the market recover at a rate similar to its decline since Barcky’s policies were announced, and as a result of a change in policy, I would be happy to give him credit.

    I re-read it JD. You are a partisan hack.

    If you care how the market recovers, as apparently you do in that sentence above, why mention it’s negativity?

    I mean if you know ahead of time that your going to balk at Obama’s methods no matter which direction the stock market goes why even bother?

    Just continue to tell us why you don’t like Obama’s plans, ignore the market, and ignore the voters that will probably vote for him again if there is a recovery.

    I mean you put so much emphasis on the market as if that was everything to you JD, it obviously is not.

    Oiram (983921)

  68. Alas, for these voters decided a year ago that the collapse was caused by the whole GOP package of deregulation and unnaturally low interest rates and, more generally, monumental incompetence at governing.

    And what do you think they’ll decide six months from now, if the stock market has dropped even further, watching Team Obama rack up huge deficits that haven’t helped a bit? What will they decide after watching Obama fumble his way through another foreign policy gaffe? The swing voter has a very short memory and even less patience.

    As far as “unnaturally low interest rates” go, Fed Funds were at 3.25% a year ago…they are 0.5% now. What will those swing voters think?

    FWIW, I have said for a long time Presidents get too much credit and too much blame for the US economy.

    Steverino (69d941)

  69. #64 Oh daley………. hasn’t anyone told you not to put your faith in fortune tellers!!

    How much did they take you for this week?

    Tarot cards are Satan’s work, even I know that 😉

    Oiram (983921)

  70. Moonbats, by definition, will never blame Obama for anything bad

    Hax – See what I did there?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 3/10/2009 @ 3:28 pm

    Don’t know about Hax, but I will daley, by not voting for him in ’12. I stated that in comment #45.

    Did I lose my moonbat status oh wise one?

    Oiram (983921)

  71. Rest assured, you still have your status as Head Fool here.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  72. Rest assured, you still have your status as Head Fool here.

    Comment by Dmac — 3/10/2009 @ 3:41 pm

    Considering the source, that’s a compliment.

    Oiram (983921)

  73. Does anyone else think that Hacks has a collection of rants that it copies and pastes. Given time, it returns to the same topics, memes, and canards every time.

    JD (0c1fee)

  74. Head fool? Head fluffer.

    JD (0c1fee)

  75. technie, it should be obvious that the so-called ‘growth’ in Q1 of 2007 was due to inflated asset prices, as was the ‘growth’ of every single quarter of the Bush administration — the Dow and S & P tell us that — we are back at ’97 levels, even with today’s rally.

    horace (a846c8)

  76. #72 I really tried this time JD, to keep this civil I mean. Why do you resort to school yard bullying?

    You really are a case study on display.

    Oiram (983921)

  77. Where’s the Obama as Alfred E. Neuman graphic, karl?

    William Teach (2f3de1)

  78. the Dow and S & P tell us that — we are back at ‘97 levels

    Really? Do they speak to you directly as separate entities, or are they just fevered imaginings within the attic – like recesses of your mind? I don’t suppose you have any relevant sources to back up that insanity, do you?

    Head fool? Head fluffer.

    Remember his immortal line last week, JD? The one where he responded to our questioning of his work history and related business acumen?

    “I work for business.”

    Yes, he does indeed work for business.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  79. “Moonbats, by definition, will never blame Obama for anything bad.”

    Absolutely.

    The difference is moonbats are isolated from the Democratic party’s mainstream. The Dems aren’t hitching their fortunes to some drug-addled talkradio ideotainer, or maintaining the fiction that newspapers operate a conspiracy against them.

    David Brooks points to one half of this essential difference yesterday in his NYT column. He exhorts Republicans to focus on what’s specifically wrong with Obama’s plans — much as Buffet did — rather than casting the president as some kind of demonic “socialist” who’s destroying the country.

    More notably, Brooks concludes by saying that he doubts conservatives will heed him.

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  80. I apologize, Mario. That was uncalled for. I still think that you play intentionally dense on several topics, just to be argumentative, but I should not have said that. My sincere apologies.

    JD (e0cee6)

  81. Cramer’s hardly a Republican; in fact, he was an Obama supporter.

    Cramer? Gack. His having supported Obama doesn’t surprise me. I wouldn’t take his word for anything. In this case, the stopped clock rule applies.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R., (1680e7)

  82. Moonbats are isolated from the mainstream? Garafolo. Michael Moore. Pelosi. Krugman. Kos. Manbearpig. Olbergasm. MadCow. Rhodes. Franken.

    JD (e0cee6)

  83. Dmac, the major stock indexes — and S & P is better than Dow — show us the actual market value of the companies that make up a large share of the US economy. I don’t know what other source you need — go to Yahoo finance and look for yourself. We’ve actually been at zero real growth in wealth for a decade.

    If you have doubts about how inflated asset values can make it *seem* that the economy is growing, just take a look at Michael Lewis’s piece on Iceland in this month’s Atlantic. We’ve been hit by the same phenomenon, though not nearly to such a degree.

    horace (a846c8)

  84. Hax,

    Interesting. Rush became addicted to pain killers after back surgery. Your president admitted to regular drug use including “blow” when he could get it. Rush is discredited but your President is just being “real”????

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  85. Thanks JD, you’re a gentleman and a scholar. I appreciate your attention to my comments, even if your responses tend to be devoid of content.

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  86. Cramer? Gack. His having supported Obama doesn’t surprise me. I wouldn’t take his word for anything. In this case, the stopped clock rule applies.

    I was using Cramer to illustrate that it’s not just Republicans blaming the recent stock market drop on Obama.

    I don’t read his columns, just clicked through the link in the original post.

    However, that doesn’t change my question to Hax (which he has studiously avoided): what in that passage from Cramer’s column is incorrect?

    Steverino (69d941)

  87. horace,

    This asset inflation is exactly what Bush and other Republicans have been warning about for at least seven years. It is a result of the inflated housing prices caused by the government “creating” credit for unqualified home buyers. The Democrats were too busy looting the system to be bothered. As Barney said, we should do more and even if it fails, the taxpayer won’t have to bail Fanny may out. Remember that???

    JD, your comment seemed over the line. Your apology was spoken like a gentleman. Well done.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  88. Moonbats are isolated from the mainstream? Garafolo. Michael Moore. Pelosi. Krugman. Kos. Manbearpig. Olbergasm. MadCow. Rhodes. Franken.

    Comment by JD — 3/10/2009 @ 4:14 pm

    Has any of them ever been apologized to by Howard Dean?

    If they ever are, or by Obama, then maybe get back to us DJ.

    Oiram (983921)

  89. Hax on the other hand seems to be making an effort to be an ass.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  90. I appreciate your attention to my comments, even if your responses tend to be devoid of content.

    Coming from a dodgy coward like Hax, who’s allergic to giving straight answers, that comment is sort of like Rosie O’Donnell dissing your looks… or your weight… or your intelligence… or your manners… or anything else about you.

    Alan (551a6d)

  91. Machinist, you may be right about other Republicans, but Bush and his henchman Rove were certainly in on the ‘everyone gets a house’ deal, largely because of their larger plan to turn the US into Mexico del Norte.

    horace (a846c8)

  92. “Rush is discredited but your President is just being “real”???

    Obama used drugs in his youth and admitted it on his own in a best-selling book.

    Rush used drugs as an adult and admitted only after getting busted, and even then, he tried to portray the bust as some kind of conspiracy by Democrats and the media.

    But hey, you’re probably right in the sense that the drug-addled reference is a distraction from the real problem with Rush’s behavior: dishonesty.

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  93. he tried to portray the bust as some kind of conspiracy by Democrats and the media.

    Name one other instance in history where law enforcement made a deal with the drug supplier to go after a drug user.

    Alan (551a6d)

  94. #78 Thanks DJ. I of course disagree on the “dense” part, but I do unfortunately tend to be argumentative.

    Oiram (983921)

  95. a look at Michael Lewis’s piece on Iceland in this month’s Atlantic.

    I respect Lewis, but his analogy is far -fetched. The market was overvalued during Greenspan’s noted “irrational exuberance” comments during the dot – com bubble, and promptly was devalued during the recession in the early part of the decade. As mentioned earlier, as stocks began their later slide after their next run – up, investors shoveled that money into speculative purchases of properties, helped in large part by Franklin Raines and Jamie Gorelick at Fannie/Freddie, and by Barney Frank.

    I don’t know what other source you need

    You could look up the stories detailing exactly what I outlined above, but I have a feeling that you’re more comfortable within your meme of the evil GOP and Bushies.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  96. but Bush and his henchman Rove were certainly

    Yep, there it is – like clockwork.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  97. From the Daily Mail:

    He has a reputation for being the archetypal senior civil servant professional, unflappable, and, above all, discreet.

    But Sir Gus O’Donnell risked sparking a transatlantic tiff today with an imprudent remark about Downing Street’s relations with the White House.

    The head of the civil service, Sir Gus said the handover to President Barack Obama’s administration was severely hindering preparations for next month’s G20 summit.

    In an extraordinary blunder, the usually-guarded Sir Gus said no-one in the U.S. Treasury department was answering telephone calls.

    He said it meant the Government was finding it ‘unbelievably difficult’ to hold discussions ahead of the meeting of world leaders in London.

    Even though the world was in the grip of the worst economic crisis in decades – top of the G20 agenda – Number 10 was having trouble getting in touch with key personnel, said the Cabinet Secretary.

    ‘There is nobody there,’ he told a civil service conference in Gateshead.

    ‘You cannot believe how difficult it is.’

    Yep, the empty suit administration.

    SPQR (72771e)

  98. “Name one other instance in history where law enforcement made a deal with the drug supplier to go after a drug user.”

    Yeah, right, Alan. The drug “supplier” was Limbaugh’s employee.

    That’s exactly the kind of denial I’m talking about…

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  99. Hax,
    I haven’t listened to Rush in years but I know he has never taken a dollar of my money, has never tried to control what I do with my property, and has never tried to take away my rights. When he has influenced me he has done so by getting me to reexamine my views, such as those on abortion.

    Obama does not do so well in these areas. His natural tendency is to force, coercion, and power. He scolds us for setting our thermostats at 72 and sets his, which we pay for, to 80. He scolds us for eating what we want and eats $100.00 steaks, that we pay for. He scolds us for driving SUVs and has a new armored SUV at taxpayer expense. That is hypocrisy. Rush has earned what he has and simply states his opinion. When has he ever tried to force those views on anyone??

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  100. I forgot, what office is Rush running for?

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  101. We chew and chew and chew and think and talk amongst ourselves on bits and bits of information and data – without accepting that Obama does NOT care what anyone thinks of him or his policies. He is president for the next 4 years and will move inexorably on his agenda as long as Nancy and Harry help him out. He does NOT care. He is Mugabe in training.

    Rose (44371c)

  102. You cannot argue with the Troll – please don’t feed it, and also review the past few months for numerous examples of it’s mendacity and inanity.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  103. Hack hasn’t gotten the new talking points memo yet.

    Psst, your new target is Eric Cantor. Ex-nay on the Ush-ray.

    Techie (9c008e)

  104. This week’s Unwitting Rhetorical Hara Kiri Award goes to:

    The Emperor!!!!!

    With special honors for concision.

    “Yawn!”

    Now that’s some classic self-negation.

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  105. Mach,
    If Obama ate tofu, rode a Schwinn to work and kept the White House dark and 68 degrees in winter, would you laud his consistency, or make fun of his sack-cloth habiliments?

    And yes, you make the excellent point that Rush isn’t running. Nor has anyone ever elected him to anything.

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  106. Hax, I would not care about any of this if he had not chastised the American people for these things and then demonstrated far more self indulgence in his own conduct.

    Do you know the meaning of hypocrisy?

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  107. Are we boring you, Emperor7 ? I’ve been looking for you and have not seen you around for awhile. Have I just not been looking often enough?

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  108. I thought so, Mach.

    Don’t you think those points are a little trifling, given what’s at stake?

    So the man eats steak and likes his house warm. Is that really what you need to spend time thinking about?

    The bullet-proof SUV? C’mon, you can’t seriously expect him to drive around in a Saturn convertible with people like the nutcases on this blog on the loose, do you?

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  109. Now you’re being an ass, again. What part of what I said was too hard for you? Maybe I can use smaller words.

    I said these issues did not matter. His hypocrisy in these matters is important. If a man lies he is dishonest, rather he lies about sex, his conduct or his words. If he steals he is a thief, rather he steals from family, friends, or a bank. I suspect you knew what I was saying and that does not speak well of you. If you believe what you are putting out here you should feel comfortable in honest debate. It seems you do not.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  110. Comment by Machinist — 3/10/2009 @ 5:56 pm
    Thanks for asking. Sometimes I feel like I am invisible.

    Emperor7 (0c8c2c)

  111. Actually, I was looking for you. I was afraid you had left but I didn’t know if you had changed names again. I am not around consistently.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  112. Comment by Machinist — 3/10/2009 @ 6:19 pm
    Nice picture over at your blog. Nice blog too.

    Emperor7 (0c8c2c)

  113. Thank you. I don’t post much.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  114. Patterico is such a tough act to beat. No point trying. I think he has a grace for it.

    Emperor7 (0c8c2c)

  115. Mach, if you’re going to play the “honest debate” card, you need to can the trash talk and name calling. Why isn’t that obvious to you?

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  116. We agree there. Patterico’s integrity, ethics, and honor make a powerful attraction here. It is one of the only places I still try to check regularly.

    I started my blog to post pictures of my house for interested friends. I express myself there when moved to do so. It is not something to attract others to as this is. I come here for interesting and pertinent news and commentary. I respect the people posting here.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  117. Not trash talk Hax, my considered opinion. As it bothers you we needn’t speak anymore. I play word games with my friends at times but I debate ideas honestly. Good day.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  118. “[T]he stock market has lost roughly 25 percent of its value in the past two months, destroying more than $2.6 trillion of wealth.”
    This morning (Tues) MSNBC devoted an entire segment to the “fact” that the stock market drop since inauguration day stems from the recession and the recession is BUSH”S FAULT! Imagine, a ‘news’ channel still beating that dead horse two months into a new administration with a new Pres, VP, Treas sec, SEC Chairman, CFTC chairman, and the SAME congressional leadership None of whom have inspired one whit of confidence. But it’s Bush’s fault.

    sam (a66070)

  119. Machinist, since you admittedly aren’t around much, you should know that you aren’t dealing with someone interested in honest, reasoned debate. Bravo for figuring it out in such a short time.

    carlitos (3f0da9)

  120. Thank you, Carlitos. I have seen him before but he seemed to be trying to argue rationally so I gave the benefit of a doubt and argued in good faith. Clearly I was misguided in this.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  121. C’mon, you can’t seriously expect him to drive around in a Saturn convertible with people like the nutcases on this blog on the loose, do you?

    Now Hax thinks the posters here are capable of murdering the President. Can you get much lower?

    You never answered my question about Cramer’s column, Hax.

    Steverino (b12c49)

  122. You’re a machinist; you should be used to working with tools :)

    carlitos (3f0da9)

  123. much to the chagrin of Obama fans like Jim Cramer.

    Cramer is someone whose judgment is so vulnerable to misadjustments and miscues, that he often needs to look in the mirror when determining who’s most at fault.

    He is the type who is so ideologically schizophrenic or neurotic that he couldn’t see — or wasn’t willing to take seriously — the garden-variety leftist sentiments oozing out of Obama, and certainly that which was pouring out of those people most likely to be hanging around him (Hi, Jeremiah Wright!! Hi, Bill Ayers!!).

    Mark (411533)

  124. At some point, can’t we get some kind of a filter so we can put an automatic ignore on certain posters? They don’t add to the conversation. They just want to turn every thread into what THEY want to talk about.

    Maybe you can set up a subscription plan to pay for the software? I’d chip in some money for that.

    steve miller (c76b20)

  125. “Rush used drugs as an adult and admitted only after getting busted”

    Hax – Is there a reason you are criticizing Rush for not talking about his addiction while he was still actively popping pills? Seriously? Can you explain that position?

    As far as the conspiracy goes, you don’t seem familiar with the case. How did it wind up? What charges were actually finally filed? Were confidential doctor/patient records illegally seized by the authorities?

    Do you ever get tired of talking out of your squeekhole?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  126. Hax – Get back to me on the above questions instead of raising your points over and over and over and over again.

    I’m here all week.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  127. steve miller,

    I think there’s software for that for free. Anyone remember?

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  128. Hey, quit spamming all the threads with Rush Limbaugh!

    carlitos (3f0da9)

  129. :)

    carlitos (3f0da9)

  130. Oho!

    “..you can’t seriously expect him to drive around in a Saturn convertible with people like the nutcases on this blog on the loose, do you?..”

    Our good friend now accuses people on this blog of murderous intent.

    I think that we ALL deserve an apology. Remember that our genial host has banned posters for this kind of hateful nonsense.

    Oh, that’s right: it’s just a joke.

    Sure it is.

    Eric Blair (8d54e0)

  131. hey, that’s not fair – i can’t delete my post.

    carlitos (3f0da9)

  132. I think that we ALL deserve an apology.

    Let me try to channel our “journalist” for a moment:

    “I’m sorry that you thought I was talking about you. Why do you think that is?

    Can you honestly say that you’ve never had the random thought of what would happen if the President were assassinated? Don’t you remember all the right-wing nutjobs that fantasized about it during the campaign? I hear stuff like that at many other wingnut sites, you guys are just too cowardly to say it.”

    Was that pretty much what we can expect (if anything)?

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  133. I’m just sitting here, watching that dimbulb keep up with his antics. He gets more and more agitated, and my guess is that either:

    1. Everyone will ignore him and he will go away.
    2. He’ll finally go over the top and Patterico will boot him. I must say that his suggesting that posters here are murderers is encouraging for this possibility.

    As it stands, does this character really bring anything here?

    But yes, Stash, what you write would be the typical progression, sort of his twee version of “…you are…” in response to arguments.

    Eric Blair (8d54e0)

  134. You know Stash, you could have your own television show:

    CSI: the Blogosphere

    You could play the troll profiler! Well, Caruso would get that gig, I suppose.

    Eric Blair (8d54e0)

  135. Can someone explain the whole “See what I did there?” deal to me?

    It’s some kind of inside joke and I’m not sure I get it.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  136. Can someone explain the whole “See what I did there?” deal to me?

    In the example above, it demonstrates the absurdity of the argument by turning it around and saying the exact opposite. Making a statement with an unwarranted assumption is dishonest, devaluing any legitimacy the statement might otherwise possess on it’s own merits. The “journalist” made a sweeping statement with an undefined term as if the definition were unchallenged. It makes arguing against the statement itself fruitless because the definition will constantly shift.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  137. By the way, that’s why I won’t talk directly to the “journalist”. After the lame-ass apology he immediately tried to draw me into a conversation where he could accuse me of racism/Islamophobia/whatever and put me on the defensive. Recognizing that, I chose not to let him.

    He doesn’t argue honestly, so he doesn’t get to talk with me. Others may feel differently, that’s their choice. I find him reprehensible. He continues to drop bait on occasion, but this fish isn’t biting.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  138. Pretty gutless, isn’t it Stash?

    You talk at me and about me, but then boast that you decline to talk “with” me?

    Grow up.

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  139. “Grow up.”

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

    Just beautiful.

    Said the turd who implied the commenters here would commit violent acts against Dear Leader.

    Said the one who criticized Limbaigh for not talking about his painkiller addiction while he was actively using – sheer brilliance that observation was! Come and get me coppers!

    What a moron.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  140. Thanks Daley, I appreciate that you’re cutting back on the homoerotic references.

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  141. It’s just bait daleyrocks… like saying I’ve talked at him (not true since the time I said I wouldn’t, but even then I acknowledged that I might succumb to temptation so it wouldn’t mean anything) or that I was boasting (stating a reason for why I don’t talk to him is boasting now). I’m supposed to defend myself and get drawn into his nonsense. Not.gonna.happen.

    Ignore him. Talk about him, but not to him. You see how desperate he becomes.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  142. I agree. Let it go.

    carlitos (3f0da9)

  143. Me too.

    I’d love it if the Whine Club completely ignored me.

    It’s a bit sad that they would waste so much of their own time with name calling, straw-manning and personal attacks, even though it does so much to sap their credibility and underscore how much they care about what I have to say.

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  144. Stash, Good to see you here, Sir.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  145. It’s all about MEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

    Heh!!!!

    Pathetic Hax.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  146. As long as you keep giving him oxygen, he’ll stick around here.

    steve miller (c76b20)

  147. Patterico – I just don’t know what the software is.

    Let me see if i can find something like that. I’m pretty good with Teh Google. I found Bambi’s school transcripts on HuffPo. Or was it his birth certificate on Kos? I forget now.

    steve miller (c76b20)

  148. My condolences Pattericos.

    I know how the loss of continued stock market losses this week must be affecting you.

    Maybe you guys could try calling it the “Bush Recovery”.

    Oiram (983921)

  149. 239 up.

    Yup must be “Bush Recovery”.

    It can’t be “Obama Recession” right?

    Or that too?

    Oiram (983921)

  150. Damn! Stock Market only up 53 today :(

    Oh well best week ever for the “Bush Recovery” ’09.

    Palin/Jindal ’12!

    Oiram (983921)

  151. Good to see that Mario is consistent.

    JD (dd18ce)

  152. He may be consistent, but he doesn’t know the difference between a recovery and a bear-market rally.

    Tell ya what, Oiram: why don’t you invest in the market since think it’s in recovery now?

    Steverino (69d941)

  153. Karl, I think the Hoover designation being put on Obama by you ‘wingers’ might work…as did blaming Hoover for prior President’s causing the Great Depression also worked to demonize Hoover, but none-the-less, it was ‘deregulation, leverage and large income disparities’ all supported by the Republican right that got us in this mess.

    (I’ll grant you that Clinton’s team of Rubin and Summers in their embrace of Reaganomics also got us here too.)

    Now, Obama doesn’t have the luxury of having 3 years of Depression before his term, but only 3 months. Giving you ‘winger’s’ a real cause for joyful manipulation of the causes of this Depression.

    And if larry summers, and Obama get us out of a Depression in less than 3 years where does that leave Republicans? So you see demonizing Obama for pre-Obama conditions might have it’s drawbacks…and if he and his Clintonistas don’t bring a recovery, I’ll be condemning him too and keeping a less partisan analysis of economics than what is read here.

    Once again, JK Galbraith’s Great Crash has real meaing unlike National Review’s vile Obama thrashing. Cause’s of the current crisis: deregulation (also supported by Dems like Summmers et al), Income inequality of a latin american degree in a nation supposedly ‘equal before the law’, Hubris (in banks and Wall Street), Leverage (not seen since the 1920s and even worse than then), Lack of Income (most ‘average’ people can’t pay for overvalued real estate period.) All of these trends are supported by Republican anti-Labor initiatives. Including over-reliance on China’s low wage cheap production for US-owned products. (Just where do you think your Iphone is made?)

    datadave (e4a0b9)

  154. Tell ya what, Oiram: why don’t you invest in the market since think it’s in recovery now?

    Comment by Steverino — 3/13/2009 @ 4:12 pm

    Oh Steverino, can’t you spot sarcasm?

    Why don’t you invest in the stock market if Bush’s stimulus package is actually working now (how many republicans added pork to that one?), as many here have noted.

    Dana Perino, is on board with that theory too, last time I checked.

    You want “consistency” DJ? Then tell your comrades to stop blaming Obama when the market goes down and then giving credit to Former President Bush when the market goes up.

    Makes your points look sillier than normal.

    Oiram (983921)

  155. He may be consistent, but he doesn’t know the difference between a recovery and a bear-market rally.

    Steverino, I know what a bear-market rally is. What I can’t understand, is how could there be a “bear-market rally” when we all know the wealthiest among us are going to pay higher taxes?
    Especially under a socialist dictator like Obama?

    Dow Up 113 points as of now. I forgot is that a good thing for anti Obamist/Obstructionists or not?

    Oh well.

    Oiram (983921)

  156. Steverino, I know what a bear-market rally is. What I can’t understand, is how could there be a “bear-market rally” when we all know the wealthiest among us are going to pay higher taxes?
    Especially under a socialist dictator like Obama?

    You are either a complete idiot to ask this question, or you are being disingenuous. I think it’s the latter, because you have an established track record of intellectual dishonesty here.

    First, stock investment income is not taxed as ordinary income, it’s taxed as capital gains. I don’t recall hearing of an increase in capital gains taxes (but maybe Obama will increase them). So, unless there’s going to be an increase in capital gains taxes, the increase in marginal rates on normal income will have no effect on long-term investment decisions.

    Second, no one is in the 100% tax bracket. A profit is still a profit; higher taxes just mean less profit. Someone investing to make a profit will consider the effect of taxation, and judge the investment worthwhile based on its after-tax return. Income taxes going up does not automatically invalidate stock as an investment.

    Steverino (69d941)

  157. Dow Up 113 points as of now.

    Oh good. That almost covers the 20th of january… a few more of these and we’ll be back to where the market was before he was sworn into office…

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  158. #160 Steverino,

    The taxes I was referring to are the ones that have supposedly created the decline in the stock market, according to many in this room, i.e. “The obama recession”. Remember? The ones that apparently caused the market to go down? Not taxes on the shares. “Ordinary Income” as you put it.

    I don’t subscribe to this thinking, mind you, but I know many here do.

    I don’t have a problem with that thinking, it’s possibly a valid opinion. What I do have a problem with is people like JD saying that if we we’re to get back to pre recession stock numbers, he would not be happy, based on the way the recovery came about.

    I’m guessing you might feel the same way. If so, why even bring it up? I mean if it doesn’t matter one way or another.

    Condemn when it goes up, condemn when it goes down….. sounds like a non issue to me.

    Regardless, I see the market lost 7 points today.

    So I guess you all can go back to blaming Obama for that, instead of giving Bush credit.

    Oiram (983921)

  159. No worries, Mario. There will be no recovery until the GOP takes Congress next year.

    Remember 1994 ?

    Of course you don’t.

    Mike K (90939b)

  160. The taxes I was referring to are the ones that have supposedly created the decline in the stock market, according to many in this room, i.e. “The obama recession”. Remember? The ones that apparently caused the market to go down? Not taxes on the shares. “Ordinary Income” as you put it.

    I don’t subscribe to this thinking, mind you, but I know many here do.

    I don’t have a problem with that thinking, it’s possibly a valid opinion. What I do have a problem with is people like JD saying that if we we’re to get back to pre recession stock numbers, he would not be happy, based on the way the recovery came about.

    I’m guessing you might feel the same way. If so, why even bring it up? I mean if it doesn’t matter one way or another.

    Condemn when it goes up, condemn when it goes down….. sounds like a non issue to me.

    What a staggering tower of crap!

    It’s not just the proposed tax increases that have the market skittish about Obama, it’s his entire approach to domestic issues: ratchet up government spending, creating a far higher baseline budget than we can afford.

    Now, if you were to use your head as something more than a hatrack, you’d understand why higher income taxes would have a negative effect on the stock market as a whole: less after-tax income means less income for investment. But your point that people shouldn’t be investing because their taxes will go up is deliberate sophistry and an utter mischaracterization of the economic theories at work.

    Please don’t guess what my position is on the stock market, and please don’t lump me in with JD. We are two different people with different views on the issue. I’ll be happy to explain myself, in far clearer terms than you ever explain yourself. And I challenge you to show ONE post of mine where I blame Obama for the recent stock market decline. Are you man enough to take the challenge?

    I condemn Obama’s “stimulus” plan, as well as the rest of his economic agenda in terms completely independent of the stock market: they create a baseline budget so high that the economic growth needed to raise revenues high enough to meet the new budget is unsustainable for more than a year or so. Further, I doubt very much that Obama’s stimulus plan will ever create the economic growth needed for even one quarter. Finally, his stimulus plan is nothing more than a wholesale advancement of Democratic policy measures masquerading as an economic bailout.

    Steverino (69d941)

  161. #163 Remember 1994 ?

    Of course you don’t.

    Comment by Mike K — 3/16/2009 @ 2:59 pm

    I sure do Mike.

    Crisis is a bit different now don’t you think?

    Either you don’t realize the crisis is different, or you would love to see the crisis get worse so that your party is a shoe in for ’10……….. of course it’s the latter. :(

    Oiram (983921)

  162. Crisis is a bit different now don’t you think?

    Mike never said 1994 was a crisis, dimwit. Stop arguing against points that have never been made.

    Steverino (69d941)

  163. #164

    Now, if you were to use your head as something more than a hatrack, you’d understand why higher income taxes would have a negative effect on the stock market as a whole: less after-tax income means less income for investment. But your point that people shouldn’t be investing because their taxes will go up is deliberate sophistry and an utter mischaracterization of the economic theories at work.

    Nice try Steverino.

    I am not the one suggesting people shouldn’t be investing because of taxes going up.

    That would be you and your buddies here, by stating that the downturn this year is Obama’s fault.

    Sorry it didn’t work out that way for you last week………………

    Or today for that matter :)

    Up 178 :)

    Oiram (983921)

  164. Shucks…….. “Stocks Finish With Solid Gains”

    “Surprisingly strong housing report is one factor as U.S. markets rise for 5th time in 6 sessions.”

    Come on Patterico’s………. how do we pin the credit for today’s “Up 187″ on Bush?

    Perhaps G.W. is a real estate agent now?

    Oiram (983921)

  165. It is a full on menoucheous troll now.

    JD (df4164)

  166. #164 Now, if you were to use your head as something more than a hatrack, you’d understand why higher income taxes would have a negative effect on the stock market as a whole: less after-tax income means less income for investment.

    Sorry I couldn’t get past the “hatrack” school yard bullying to read the rest of your comment, and know that we shouldn’t just lump you in with JD’s views on the stock market.

    At least you’ve got that going for you which is nice.

    Does this means your hoping for an economic recovery even with Obama’s strategy?

    Oiram (983921)

  167. I am not the one suggesting people shouldn’t be investing because of taxes going up.

    That would be you and your buddies here, by stating that the downturn this year is Obama’s fault.

    Liar. I’ll say it flat out: you are a liar. I have NEVER said that the downturn this year is Obama’s fault. I have NEVER suggested that people shouldn’t be investing because taxes are going up. And when I asked you to provide proof that I did, you refused.

    You are a f***ing liar.

    Sorry I couldn’t get past the “hatrack” school yard bullying

    Saying you should use your head for more than a hatrack is “school yard bullying”???? You’re not only a liar, you’re a wimp.

    You have a long, deep history of deliberately misrepresenting people’s opinions here. You duck valid point after valid point, and twist words to suit your whim. You are a coward and a liar.

    I will not address you again.

    Steverino (69d941)

  168. Mike never said 1994 was a crisis, dimwit. Stop arguing against points that have never been made.

    Comment by Steverino — 3/17/2009 @ 1:39 pm

    Let’s see, yup your right Mike never actually suggested 1994 was a crisis.

    No worries, Mario. There will be no recovery until the GOP takes Congress next year.

    Remember 1994 ?

    Of course you don’t.

    Comment by Mike K — 3/16/2009 @ 2:59 pm

    But he was referring to 1994 as it relates to our 2010. I think we can guess that he was trying to tell me that when the GOP takes congress next year or 2010 (whatever), that then and only then will we be in full recovery.

    I felt the need to remind him that 1993 (Clinton) is a bit different then 2009 (Obama). Funny how they both followed a Bush isn’t it?

    If Mike thinks that the G.O.P. fixed Clinton’s crisis in 1994, that’s fine.

    But to compare that “crisis” to today’s is C.R.A.P.

    Oiram (983921)

  169. It is a full on menoucheous troll now.

    Comment by JD — 3/17/2009 @ 2:18 pm

    I guess that means we’re giving credit to Bush on the housing report too.

    Spinners Spin I guess.

    Oiram (983921)

  170. Watching Oieam talk about economics and financial matters is like watching Dumb and Dumber. He’s hilarious on oil prices. HAS NO CLUE.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  171. He’s also sure that road use fees “aren’t enough” to maintain highways without knowing how much they are relative to costs. But anyway.

    carlitos (4402ad)

  172. Were mario a man, he’d apologize for lying about me and for being such a friggin’ weasel.

    In an earlier age, we’d settle this with a good fistfight. I’m pushing 50 and hobbled with old injuries, but I’d beat the likes of him so badly his own mother wouldn’t know him from tonight’s Hamburger Helper.

    Steverino (b12c49)

  173. daley, can you please add some homoerotic flavor to the above. /thx

    carlitos (4402ad)

  174. #176 Glad to know your not addressing me any longer Steverino.

    Glad to know your also not bullying me either.

    Hamburger Helper?

    Duh, o.k.

    Oiram (983921)

  175. #175 Carlitos, do I need to know how much they are relative to costs to see that my car hits multiple potholes on the way to work?

    More fees are obviously needed.

    Next your going to castigate me for not knowing what type of tar is used.

    Oiram (983921)

  176. carlitos – Why do I always have to add the homoerotic flavor? Isn’t it your turn?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  177. And there we have it, the liberal mindset in a nutshell. I drive on a road with potholes, ergo we must need more fees. Writ large:

    Something doesn’t work = There isn’t enough money.

    Well, great news, your “spending IS stimulus” President agrees with you.

    carlitos (4402ad)

  178. It’s so funny, the economy and the stock market remind me of partisan bickering a few years back during the thick of the Iraq war.

    I remember watching the news (Fox) with a conservative buddy of mine, could of been one of you for all I know, he was thrilled every time our troops had a good day, or we made gains.

    He looked at me like he was expecting me to be disappointed.

    I wasn’t, in fact I was right there cheering with him, even though I of course disagreed with the reasons we were there in the first place.

    I wonder, is everyone cheering right along with me when I tell you that the stock market just closed at 7486.58 up 90.88 from yesterday?

    Regardless of how, who or why it happened?

    Oiram (983921)

  179. Yes.

    Back to road fees, the kind of tar used is the kind that the Mayor’s brother-in-law says to use. Get it?

    carlitos (b01f67)

  180. Carlitos, do I need to know how much they are relative to costs to see that my car hits multiple potholes on the way to work?

    More fees are obviously needed.

    Are you serious? We are entering the time of year when potholes are ubiquitous due to freezing/thawing – expansion/contraction, and you blame that on a shortage of fees?

    JD (df4164)

  181. #182 And there we have the “Privatization” point of view from Carlitos.

    Assuming a private company will take care of pot holes in our streets without direction from the government.

    I hope I have my own jet pack when and if that ever happens, the roads are going to be a bit too haphazard for my tastes.

    Oiram (983921)

  182. Oiram – use whatever portions of your vast brain you have and cut / paste the post where I said, or even hinted that a private anything would fix roads without direction from the government. Go ahead, I’ll come back and look later.

    carlitos (b01f67)

  183. #184 Old discussion DJ. You can try to spin it though.

    Originally about roads being fixed by private companies and with taxpayers money in the form of fuel taxes.

    Not enough by the looks of it here, Winter, Spring, Summer or Fall.

    I haven’t even begun to discuss our bridges.

    Oiram (983921)

  184. #186 No carlitos, I’ll take you on your word.

    Accept my apology please.

    It’s refreshing to know your o.k. with socialized roads.

    Oiram (983921)

  185. Back to road fees, the kind of tar used is the kind that the Mayor’s brother-in-law says to use. Get it?

    Comment by carlitos — 3/18/2009 @ 1:44 pm

    Too Funny

    Oiram (983921)

  186. #182 And there we have the “Privatization” point of view from Carlitos.

    This is complete and utter bullshit, unsupported, even remotely, by what he actually said. Plus, #182 is your comment, idiot, carlitos’ was #181.

    Patterico – This is a perfect example of what happens when your reasonable interpretation standard runs into the unreasonable interpretation.

    JD (df4164)

  187. This is really one of the most craptacular arguments you have attempted to advance, Oiram. The mere existence of potholes, in the spring, means that commercial trucking companies are not paying enough taxes. Good Allah.

    JD (df4164)

  188. It is funny about the potholes. From what I saw of Pennsylvania roads over a period of 30 years or so, the Penndot did quite an effed up job. I believe at one time long distance truckers rated Pa. roads the worst.

    One nasty snow-laden winter in Norristown, Pa. the damn slush was not removed nor potholes repaired. I know New York City has a reputation for big holes, but this shite was unbelievable. I wondered at the time whether the alignment shops were paying off the state and local bozos.

    And here in So. Fla. the road work never ends. Those hard working union members sure do earn their pay standing around in groups supervising one or two with shovels. About as useful as the top-heavy bureauracy that supervises schools and toil away in majestic palaces. Public Schools seem to suck and yet the big shots school board supeintendents command big salaries since we don’t want to lose them to free agency. Something like those assclowns who risked trillions betting on derivatives and are rewarded with mere millions in bonuses. Someone tell me why the rest of us should worry about loyalty to pols of any party or not fudge on our taxes. Nothing much I can really do myself to avoid taxes, but I can see why Obama’s obedient Obots will revel in handouts and reverse income tax payments when the minority actually successful who work and produce something will foot the bill. Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio? You feck up and you deserve reimbursement from those who didn’t??

    aoibhneas (0c6cfc)

  189. In this journey you’re the journal I’m the journalist
    Am I eternal? or an eternalist?
    I’m about to flow long as I can possibly go
    Keep ya movin cause the crowd said so
    Dance – cuts rip ya pants
    Eric b on the blades, bleedin to death – call the ambulance
    Pull out my weapon and start to squeeze
    A magnum as a microphone murderin’ mc’s
    Let’s quote a rhyme from a record I wrote
    (follow the leader) yeah – dope

    carlitos (b01f67)

  190. Oiram – Do you know how to tie your shoes? Does the existence of murder prove that we do not tax citizens enough?

    JD (df4164)

  191. This is a profoundly stupid position you have taken, Oiram. Even for you.

    JD (df4164)


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