Patterico's Pontifications

3/3/2009

Shooting the messengers

Filed under: General,Politics — Karl @ 12:09 pm

[Posted by Karl, while wearing a smoking jacket.]

There is a fair amount of it going on at the moment.  Dan Riehl and Ace note (as others have) that the media has been demonizing Rush Limbaugh to pull the GOP leadership away from the most conservative elements of their base.  Limbaugh noted over a month ago that this was Obama Administration strategy; the establishment media is simply helping to execute it. (Howie Kurtz and Chris Cillizza have gotten around to reporting the ongoing campaign.)

However, Limbaugh is merely one target of many.  As Patrick Ruffini noted in the case of a bogus story about Bobby Jindal:

I could easily couch this post as a warning, except it’s more of a description of the fallout of a 50-megaton warhead that’s been dropped on conservative Washington except most people don’t seem to know it yet.

On one side, we have the left picking off rising Republican stars one at a time. And on the other, we had an utter failure to do the same to the most conspicuous rising star on the left, Barack Obama. The MSM was not going to do it for us — we had to do it ourselves and we didn’t. For starters, we still know very little about Obama’s law practice before and during his tenure as a State Senator. Had Obama been a Republican, Rev. Wright’s radicalism, a fact known to tens of thousands of people but which somehow escaped the notice of the national press, would have been an issue shortly after his 2004 convention speech — just as the left has been furiously picking apart Jindal’s response speech.

The right needs a serious investigative capacity to channel raw information in politically important directions. Op-eds and Fox hits don’t add value. Raw information about Democratic hypocrisy does.

There is not much new in this, except possibly the notion that this sort of political warfare is becoming increasingly preemptive (the instant attacks on Jindal echoing those on Sarah Palin during the campaign), trying to make sure your opponent’s first impression is a bad one.

Even so, TIME magazine was asking whether Limbaugh is good for America at least 14 years ago.  That was about a month after the mag named Newt Gingrich “Uncle Scrooge” and Newsweek called him “The Gingrich That Stole Christmas” before he was even sworn in as Speaker of the House.  All of which predated Daily Kos and TPM Muckraker.  Over the years, Limbaugh has been attacked by Pres. Clinton and Sen. Tom Daschle — and would have been without the blogosphere.  The years of media attacks on the Bush Administration on various issues, generally followed by silence (or defense) as Obama adopts similar positions would have been the same without the blogosphere.

Moreover, the establishment media has proven that it is increasingly inclined to ignore or downplay raw information harmful to Democrats, as Ruffini’s own example of the Rev. Wright demonstrates.  That is why such information tends to turn up — if at all — in op-eds and on FNC.  Or on talk radio — which is one reason why the Obama Administration is targeting Limbaugh and Hannity.

None of which is to say that everyone on the right half of the spectrum must refrain from criticizing — or leap to the defense of — a Limbaugh, or a Jindal, or a Palin, or a Gingrich.  Indeed, I have my own disagreements with each of them, as I do of any number of other conservatives and Republicans.  Internal debate is ultimately healthy to parties or movements.  No less a leader than Ronald Reagan blasted the GOP as carrying a banner of “pale pastels” instead of “bold colors.” Coincidentally, that speech was made at CPAC in 1975, before one of those “16-year cycle” elections favoring Democrats of changitude.

Nevertheless, winning national debates and elections in America generally requires a coalition of some sort (Reagan recognized this also, putting George H.W. Bush on the ticket in 1980).  There will be no shortage of establishment media (and the Left more generally) shooting at the messengers of the Right, regardless of which which faction(s) of the Right that messenger may represent.  I would have thought that the story of John McCain — media darling when criticizing the GOP, bête noire when he is its nominee — would have been a lesson.  Conservative or Republican leaders (or infuencers) will be attacked as rednecks, Bible-thumpers, stupid, racist, sexist, homophobic, intolerant, heartless, warmongers, evil tools of Wall Street, etc., in whichever combination the the Left thinks it can get away with passing off on the mushy, apolitical middle.

Maybe the Right would be better off spending more time — as Ruffini suggests — shooting at the messengers and policies of the Left instead of their own.  But maybe neither Right nor Left ever really learn these sorts of lessons while in the minority.  They merely put such intramural disputes aside when they get sufficiently tired of losing and a sufficient consensus candidate appears.

–Karl

287 Responses to “Shooting the messengers”

  1. The attacks on Jindal are more of a concern than those on Limbaugh. He chews those people up and spits them out. For a perfect example of the double standard, look at Bill Moyers and how he is treated like a sage.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  2. Jindal is a Creationist, and signed a bill forcing the inclusion of “intelligent design” in Louisiana schools science curriculum.

    if he is the Republican candidate, he’ll have to win without my support, regardless of who he’s running against.

    [The bill Jindal signed does no such thing, but the comment proves the point about effectively tarring pols on first sight — Karl]

    redc1c4 (9c4f4a)

  3. “Conservative or Republican leaders (or infuencers) will be attacked as rednecks, Bible-thumpers, stupid, racist, sexist, homophobic, intolerant, heartless, warmongers, evil tools of Wall Street, etc., in whichever combination the the Left thinks it can get away with passing off on the mushy, apolitical middle.”

    And we let them get away with it, time and time again. There is an old saying that goes something like this: All it takes for evil to be victorious is for good men to do nothing. Well, I say all it takes for libs to win elections is for good conservatives to do nothing.

    The best defense is a good offense. Conservatives need to stop re-acting and start acting. We need to somehow make it cool to be conservative again. The Dems will f up, it is in their nature, we need to sieze on the opportunities provided and maximize their impact. We can’t be namby pamby moderate conservatives. The Left has completely changes the language of the debates. What used to be mainstream conservatism is now “extreme right-wing” ideology. What used to be liberal conservatives are now seen as staunch conservatives. What used to be liberals are now called moderates. They, the left has hijacked the narrative. I am a mainstream conservative, but to the libs and the MSM I would be called a “hard-line conservative” because they control the narrative. We need to start by gaining back some control over our own narrative.

    Obama is a communist. Plain and simple. He is not a liberal, or a socialist, he is a fing communist bastard! We past up socialism with the Clintons, we are now into left wing nut-job commie bastard homeland. Karl Marx would be very proud of Obama, so would Engels.

    Where have all the Patriots gone? We need a “conservative” hero, s/he’s gotta be strong and s/he’s gotta be fresh for the fight….

    J. Raymond Wright (d83ab3)

  4. J.R.W., amen brother. Reputlicans (spelled that way deliberately because all they seem to give a damn about is their reputation among their Democrat peers) have given a damn for far too long what others think of them. As you all may have noticed, Democrats don’t care, they forge ahead and blast Reputlicans left and right. Enough! We truly do need a hero, and a big mouthed, tough son of a bitch at that.

    GM Roper (85dcd7)

  5. redc1c4, I’m a Creationist as well. And I vote for those silly evolutionists who happen to be conservatives. Just sayin’.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  6. And, what is wrong with an examination of “intelligent design”?
    Do we not talk about Copernicus? Or Ptolemy?
    Are we going to ban competing political theories from school also?
    Can’t talk about Marxism, Fascism, The Divine Right of Kings, etc?
    Darwin is not the infallible prophet of science (infallibility is the province of Popes,
    and Mohammed, and we know how well that’s going).

    AD - RtR/OS (e4c8ef)

  7. It is a true and verifiable fact that you reich-wing neo-theo-conz only know what to say or think once the fat drug addicted Viagra smuggling Limbaugh tells you. All you snake handling talking in tongues zealots need to crawl back under your rocks and pray to the spaghetti monster in the sky that you do not get what you deserve.

    JD (b527d1)

  8. The difference, AD, is that “Intelligent Design” purports to be science but simply isn’t.

    SPQR (72771e)

  9. It is my stringent belief that no conservative coalition which rejects those with firmly held Christian principles and beliefs will be able to withstand the onslaught of the far left agend.

    In other words, throw us by the wayside and we’ll find a third-party candidate. Just sayin’.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  10. Well, Ptolomy purported to be science, and wasn’t.
    Marxism purports to be Scientific Socialism, and isn’t.
    The point of education is to examine that which is in the arena, for good and bad.
    And, how do we know there was not some unseen hand involved in the creation of the Universe?
    Who lit the fuse for the Big Bang?

    AD - RtR/OS (e4c8ef)

  11. Ummm, before my Irish gets up too high, I’m going to stop before I go all trollish on the adherants of Darwin’s postulate.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  12. JD,

    Racist!

    Karl (0b58c4)

  13. Oh yeah, that too. Just trying to save the trolls the time …

    JD (b527d1)

  14. I’m pretty sure, if we had to run an election today, we’d have a consensus candidate.

    Romney. Reasonably conservative, but not crazy; economically astute; a great communicator; and not too old.

    The only real argument is who to balance the ticket with.

    Kevin Murphy (805c5b)

  15. The Left has embraced fully the politics of personal destruction.

    Sarah Palin wasn’t just not ready to be VP, she was “an unfit mother, an backwards hick, a trailer trash beauty queen, a liar, etc.”.

    Jindal is the next target.

    Do we decide to return fire?

    Techie (6b5d8d)

  16. we had to do it ourselves and we didn’t.

    I take it Ruffini does not read Free Republic then, because they had an article on Wright and his Church Of Hate back in 2005, one which was never subsequently improved on by the Ruffinis and Frums of the world.

    Subotai (704b76)

  17. Patrick,
    I was just at a site (Feministe) where a ‘columnist’ stated Rush Limbaufg had rrecommended James Ray be given The Cong Medal of Honor for killing Dr. King.I’ve asked her to support her claim
    Still,what surprises me is anyone stupid enough to believe this.

    corwin (69eb8e)

  18. It may well be the blogosphere that’s preventing conservatives from finding a way out of their political morass.

    The proliferation of right-wing blogs has created a massive, closed feedback loop in which millions of potential activists imbibe the illusion that railing against the “dirty communist” president is a path to recovery.

    Largely sealed off from any sign of reality, the wingnutosphere nurtures exactly the kind of blame-the-media paranoia that drove conservatives into the hole in which they now find themselves.

    Instead of organizing their neighborhood, or petitioning their representatives or showing up at their school board, a rapidly growing army of “conservative” bloggers is wallowing in the easy self-regard gained from sitting at home spewing polemic paranoia and banning or dismissing all critics as “trolls.”

    It’s beyond obvious that conservatives need to expand their base, yet the only mission of its most committed bloggers seems to be to push moderates to right or out of their party.

    There are plenty of liberal wingnut blogs as well, but they are much further from the core of the liberal mainstream than are conservative blogs. More important, the left has seized on the Internet more as an organizing and fund-raising tool than as a place to spout polemics and “win” arguments by banning dissenters.

    Note that Karl leaves out the fact that many conservatives as well are pointing out that Limbaugh has always been primarily an entertainer, not a thinker or leader.

    The sharpest barbs toward Rush come from mainstream Republicans who are horrified that the party’s devolved to the point where such a clown can be considered its leader.

    RNC Chair Michael Steele simply told it like it is when he accused Rush of being hateful, and incendiary.

    Mike Murphy, a Republican consultant, and Joe Scaraborough, a former Republican congressman, also singled out Rush as someone leading the GOP in exactly the wrong direction.

    AD: “Intelligent design” can be taught in civics class as a political issue. No problem with that, just keep it out of the science curriculum. As you yourself point out, it compares with Marxism which, while itself claiming to be scientific, is far from it.

    Hax Vobiscum (4012df)

  19. I didn’t deal that one. I cut back on the sour cream on my spuds. Someone else dealt it.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  20. Did somebody fart?

    JD (b527d1)

  21. I would deny it, but my credibility is zero (plus, noodles for lunch). 😉

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  22. You know, it’s just easier to go right by. A few words, and it’s recognizable as leftist glurge.

    steve miller (0fb51f)

  23. Boy, when you get a potato that’s going rotten, and then you slather on some past its’ sell date sour cream….
    Ewwwwwww!
    It just cries out for a defenestration, but that would be wrong.

    AD - RtR/OS (e4c8ef)

  24. “It may well be the blogosphere that’s preventing conservatives from finding a way out of their political morass.

    The proliferation of right-wing blogs has created a massive, closed feedback loop in which millions of potential activists imbibe the illusion that railing against the “dirty communist” president is a path to recovery.

    Largely sealed off from any sign of reality, the wingnutosphere nurtures exactly the kind of blame-the-media paranoia that drove conservatives into the hole in which they now find themselves.”

    – Hax Vobiscum

    Are you really going to argue that? I mean, you could’ve said the same thing about MoveOn or Dkos or [insert preeminent liberal blog here] in 2001, substituting “fascist” for “communist”, “liberal” for “conservative”, and “moonbatosphere” for “wingnutosphere”… if they hadn’t played such an arguably important role in electing a bevy of Democrats in 2006 and electing Obama last November. Which they did.

    Leviticus (43095b)

  25. “The only real argument is who to balance the ticket with.”

    – Kevin Murphy

    Buchanan!

    Leviticus (43095b)

  26. the left’s absolute worst nightmare?

    limbaugh combined with a transformative conservative, like reagan.

    I’m not happy with their short term destruction of America as a capitalist system, but they are plowing the field for another reagan.

    I’ll let the pendulum swing.
    If the dems want to push the pendulum higher, it will swing back in an equivalent retribution.

    mark l. (69baf1)

  27. Leviticus – Shhhhhhhh. Be very quiet. It is servicing Teh Narrative.

    JD (b527d1)

  28. You know, it’s just easier to go right by. A few words, and it’s recognizable as leftist glurge.
    Comment by steve miller — 3/3/2009 @ 2:56 pm

    It’s leftist glurge that is usually too long-winded to see who wrote it without scrolling down. Then, if it turns out to be someone other than the “journalist”, you have to scroll back up to see if there is anything worth responding to. If it is the “journalist”, then you have to scroll past the comments which give into the temptation to respond to the troll.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  29. Personally, I am tired of the “Jindal is a Creationist” argument. And thanks to Karl for commenting on that canard. First, the majority of people making that claim did not…well, major in Biology, as Jindal did.

    In fact, most people poking fun at Jindal don’t know the slightest bit about his background, which to me is telling. It’s all about D versus R, again.

    As someone who is trained in biology, I enjoy chatting about this with “anti-Creationists.” Strangely, they seem to be all about what their opponents believe, rather than what they themselves believe (which, as Karl rightly points out, is purely political rather than biological).

    That being said, I would be delighted to see Jindal deal with this issue straight on.

    There are many fundamentalist Christians who would vote for a person who believes in evolutionary processes. I keep hearing about the “intolerant Right” and their litmus tests…but the litmus tests seem to be on the other side of the aisle, as well.

    At the same time, as Karl points out, notice the lack of attention to detail on the “other side.” It seems to me we know a whole lot more about Obama’s opponents than Obama himself. Like his grades in college and law school, just to pick an example.

    The press seems much more interested in critiquing the Right at present. But that is because the Left is correct, right?

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  30. Careful, Leviticus, you appear to be drinking too much of our conservative Kool-Aid. 😉

    But seriously, Leviticus, your honest debating and questioning differs greatly from that green gas floating in the air. Don’t try to communicate with it. You will only make it expand and putrify even more air.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  31. Oh, and wasn’t everyone supposed to be taking Bean-o?

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  32. I mean, how much did we have to hear about the “intolerant Right” on gay marriage?

    And President Obama’s position on gay marriage is what?

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  33. So, the lesson is that the truth about say Jindal’s efforts; or Sarah’s ending the “Bridge to Nowhere” have to compete with the lies, accepted by people too stupid to know the difference, endlessly propagated. Back in 2004, we didn’t think that Obama
    was anywhere close to a viable candidate, we though they’d put up Hillary or Edwards. So Rush pointed the critique, very much akin to Reagan’s ‘pastel colors’ yet Steele and Cantor let themselves get distracted. Sarah was very prophetic about exactly what we would be facing 6 months to the day, yet she was buried by a ton of lies, distortions and omissions.

    narciso (57971e)

  34. Errr, TY EB number 29. You post too fast.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  35. Kevin: Romney’s religion is a problem for the Christian right, the Republican’s key base. Why do you think he didn’t get the nomination in 2008?

    Buchanan, an unabashed nativist, also highlights rifts in the GOP coalition: small business owners who need cheap immigrant labor and moderate “modernists” versus white identity conservatives.

    Hax Vobiscum (4012df)

  36. Sniff. Darn it, John!

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  37. Eric – Teh One told us that his faith informs his politics and that makes him oppose same sex marriage. Clearly, he is a homophobe, a closet pillow biter, and is turning our once great country into a THEOCRACY!!!

    JD (b527d1)

  38. EB, you made me choke on my white lightning. You owe me two bits.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  39. Yeah, but he doesn’t really mean it, JD.

    Part of Teh Narrative.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  40. John, I expect that disrespectful response from a moonshinin’ theocrat. You stand in the way of the One for which we have been waiting.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  41. Personally, I wish more conservatives read WITNESS, GOD AND MAN AT YALE, and THE CONSERVATIVE MIND and spent a little less time listening to talk radio.

    Rush serves a legitimate purpose, he rallies the base and provides a channel for the pent up rage of many conservatives. A channel that leads to action during elections. It’s the same role that MoveOn and DailyKos provide on the Left. His strong polemic positions make him a great populist voice, a kind of modern (and conservative) version of William Jennings Bryan. He would also make a terrible politician.

    Winning elections means persuading those who disagree with you on approximately half of your issues that they should vote for you and not the other candidate. That’s not what Rush does. He provides talking points, and information, for those who already agree with certain ideological premises.

    By fanning the flames of the base, Rush inflames passions. That’s often a good thing. During elections, it’s a necessary thing. It’s what parties are supposed to do. Though they have been counting on others to do the job for them lately.

    But politics shouldn’t be about passions, it should be as the Federalist argued “the cool and deliberate sense of the community” that rules. The conflict based nature of talk radio isn’t well suited to developing one’s deliberative sense, it’s about shouting at the radio. Whether one shouts “boo” or “yaay” is of little consequence, only that shouting is involved. Dittoheads, the name itself implies total agreement, would benefit from spending more time reading Chambers, Buckley, and Kirk and less time listening to Rush.

    On the other hand, professional politicians would benefit from both listening to Rush, Hannity, etc., AND reading Chambers, Buckley, and Kirk. The former would let them know what a large portion of their base is concerned about on a daily basis, the latter would help them to see how one goes about constructing an argument that must be engaged by those on the other side. Arguments that cannot be so easily dismissed as being “entertainment.”

    Christian (abaa8f)

  42. Rush needs to do an audio clip of all the personal left wing attacks on him. The Dems never debate the issues. Rush must call them out for running from issues.

    Dennis D (ae900a)

  43. That was a great story, John.

    I’ll have a shot of that white lightning of yours.

    Racist.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  44. Alright, anyone who has listened to Rush for any length of time would know Rush’s definition of a “dittohead.” And it is absolutely not a blind, deaf, dumb (insert music here) person agreeing with everything Rush says.

    I have said before, and I’ll say again, Rush is right 90 pc of the time. The other 10 pc of the time, he’s too far left.

    A “dittohead” holds many of the views on which Rush speaks out, before Rush speaks out, and irrelevant of whether Rush speaks out.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  45. Dittoheads, the name itself implies total agreement…

    Never listened to Limbaugh’s show, have you? If you did, you’d know what the “ditto” refers to.

    The idea that Limbaugh is primarily about shouting at the radio is another clue. Certainly, there are radio shows that are red meat and ranting, but by and large, Limbaugh’s isn’t like that. He may not put on professorial airs and use the NPR tone, but you’ll get references to Hayek, Friedman, and the Founders in the underpinnings of his arguments.

    Rob Crawford (837ad1)

  46. Sorry Rob. Have listened to Rush since he was on the air in Sacramento, when there was this thing called the Fairness Doctrine still in effect.

    If my reductive representation of dittohead isn’t specific enough for you, too bad.

    It is true that Rush is no John and Ken, which is why I can listen to him. Note that I said “talk radio” was about yelling at the radio, not Rush specifically. Though he is a little about that too.

    Christian (abaa8f)

  47. You’re making a distinction without a difference. Try again.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  48. I will not use your moniker when I comment to you out of my own value of the term, but if you have been listening to Rush for that long, you wouldn’t have mouthed the oft-used liberal hack of the term “dittohead,” at least without a disclaimer that gave the facts.

    (There was an outright blasphemous moniker on Sadly, No! that I chose not to even interact with (shameless plug for my research) because his moniker used God’s name in vain.)

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  49. How about this…

    Rush Limbaugh is about entertainment and politics. Sometimes he goes off on a screed, making some listeners want to yell at the radio.

    The majority of talk radio is about getting people to call in because they are angry with you or agree so emphatically that they make “good radio.” Both of these make listeners want to yell at the radio.

    Christian (abaa8f)

  50. Nope, John. First a Bruin, and then a Cardinal.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  51. Ahh, my feedjit … anyway … Too bad.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  52. Hey Karl-
    I’m just putting this here for the big Andy Stern/SEIU piece you are working on-

    AFL official blasts SEIU

    SEIU chief Andrew Stern’s backing of a divorce for UNITE HERE, and his offer to merge with that union, has provoked off-record grumbling on the HERE side of the divided union. Today, it brought an an on-record shot from a division of the AFL-CIO, which SEIU and UNITE HERE left to form Change to Win.

    “A guiding principle of American trade unionism is and always has been that one union or federation of unions must not interfere in the democratic processes of another union or federation,” said Building and Construction Trades Department President Mark Ayers in his memo. “The fact that one large international union has chosen to insert itself into the affairs of UNITE HERE is deplorable and arrogant.”

    MayBee (c16fb9)

  53. Anyone who mentions “dittohead” doesn’t listen to the program. I don’t listen that much (although more lately) but know that the “ditto” thing was to discourage people who called from taking time to tell him how much they liked the show.

    People who don’t listen think it means they agree with him but it doesn’t. While don’t agree with hi on everything, he as a big megaphone right now and Republicans need that.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  54. As my moniker is my name, I would prefer it if you used my name. If you choose not to, you can call me CJ — that was a nickname I had when younger.

    Thank you for the link to your research. I will certainly read it.

    Reading reviews containing Buckley’s treatment as a Catholic (and the seriousness with which he took religion), something he and I share, after the publication of GOD AND MAN AT YALE was a revelation for me with regard to how intellectuals treat religion. So I can sympathize with the way you were mocked at Sadly, No!.

    I didn’t mean to imply that I am a regular listener to Rush. I lived in Reno when he was on in Sacramento and would listen whenever I drove through. It was a good show. I have listened sporadically since and believe that he plays an important function in conservative political life, but not a central function in my own. In geek terms, I am the casual Superman fan who talked about the effects Kryptonite has on Superman. The real fan asks which kind of Kryptonite, with the assumption that I “make mine Marvel.” The error doesn’t mean that I am not a long time casual fan. But it does mean that I don’t listen every day.

    Christian (abaa8f)

  55. Mike,

    Given your tenure as a commenter on Cathy’s blog. You should know that I am no troll, nor a liar. Thanks for defending John’s belief that I am.

    Christian (abaa8f)

  56. CJ, trust me. I act differently with trolls than I did with you. While I am often (more often than not) terse in my dialogues with non-trolls, I rarely engage trolls. My comments to you were not the same as I would’ve given a troll.

    (And thank you for an alternate ID, I only hope I can remember it.)

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  57. The word “media” is plural, not singular.

    This is not just a correction of your grammar. The idea that the media behave in a singular manner is preposterous.

    cokane (34d342)

  58. CJ, Superman was by DC, not Marvel.

    /geek

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  59. Crack, smack, whatever you want to call yourself. Where have you been the past thirty years? The media, as an organism, is heavily liberal-leaning or outright liberal. Granted, there is an atrophied portion of the media that is right-leaning, but overall, it is a communist/marxist/socialist shill.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  60. Rush Limbaugh 2012! Please let it be him oh God!

    Emperor7 (0c8c2c)

  61. Lovey, for a purported Christian, you choose to use God’s name in vain?

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  62. Stashiu3,

    Knowledge of that is assumed for the comment. I was referencing the fact that a casual fan, like me, shouldn’t be surprised when his lack of specific knowledge makes him look like an opponent.

    No fan of Alan Scott would ever make the mistake that Superman was a marvel character.

    Christian (abaa8f)

  63. Sry, too much white lightning, I engaged two trolls. I’ll try to restrain myself before that green gas comes back.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  64. Dennis,

    Rush could fill his show from now until the next election with nothing but clips of attacks the Left has made against him.

    Christian (abaa8f)

  65. John, engagement on this subject is useless. All the opponent needs to say is “there is one journalist who is not a registered Democrat” to claim victory.

    Then they fall back on “just because a reporter has a political belief does not mean they are biased.”

    Sigh. As if anyone watching this last election could believe that kind of thing.

    Me, I reverse the situation. If the MSM was (because it currently is one entity) composed of 85 – 90% registered Republicans, would we hear that the media was not biased?

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  66. you choose to use God’s name in vain?

    Comment by John Hitchcock — 3/3/2009 @ 4:29 pm
    John, what is the name of God? Do you know it? Please tell me.

    Emperor7 (0c8c2c)

  67. Now, Lovey, you are just trying to bait John. I would think, after all the trollish nonsense the past few days, you would want to show you are better than that.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  68. This fish knows better than to like worms — especially J-worms.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  69. Some say Elohim, others say Jehovah, either way it’s standard belief to use the word God respectfully and not as an interjection.

    bonhomme (bb9463)

  70. I would think, after all the trollish nonsense the past few days, you would want to show you are better than that.

    Why on Earth would you think that? Or that it might possibly be so?

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  71. The triumph of Hope over Experience, Stash.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  72. I would think, after all the trollish nonsense the past few days, you would want to show you are better than that.

    Comment by Eric Blair — 3/3/2009 @ 4:37 pm
    You must have me mixed up with someone else, Eric. Seeing I have not been regular here for more than a week. But thanks for playing.

    Emperor7 (0c8c2c)

  73. Comment by John Hitchcock — 3/3/2009 @ 4:39 pm
    So you don’t know the answer, John. That’s a first.

    Emperor7 (0c8c2c)

  74. When I first arrived, I believe Lovey was a well-meaning type person who had some off-the-wall ideas. After a couple weeks or so, I found out the benign Lovey I thought I saw was actually malignant.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  75. *I believed Lovey*

    Too quick on the “submit” button.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  76. Remember folks, failure to respond to trolls does not imply agreement, acceptance, defeat, or anything else except that trolls are not worth responding to. No matter what they claim.

    lovey,
    God
    Forgives
    You

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  77. Comment by Stashiu3 — 3/3/2009 @ 4:42 pm
    Hi Stash, longest time. :)

    Emperor7 (0c8c2c)

  78. I still am interested in learning who Robert and Rebekkka were arguing with …

    JD (b527d1)

  79. “Shooting The Messenger”???

    Get real.

    Rush couldn’t be happier about this whole thing.

    He’s pitted himself against liberals, the RNC chairman Steele, Democrats, President Obama, and me.

    A current Media Favorite to be sure.

    He is bound to get even more of an audience, as did Britney’s escapades in ’07. And he doesn’t even have to shave his head :)

    Speaking of which, I live in Los Angeles and I’m trying to find Rush on my AM dial so that I could call my radio an idiot while I drive.

    Anyone know which number I could find Rush on my dial and when he’s on?

    Oiram (983921)

  80. #75: No, Lovey, I have never really fenced with you and I am not trying to do so now. To be clear, there have been some really horrible troll outbreaks during the past week or so, with local Mobies and sockpuppets agitating away.

    I have seen you post in a civil fashion. I was simply asking you not to intentionally bait John, especially over his faith.

    And so far as “...thanks for playing...” I do not think that anything here is a game. I hope you feel the same.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  81. After a couple weeks or so, I found out the benign Lovey I thought I saw was actually malignant.

    Comment by John Hitchcock — 3/3/2009 @ 4:52 pm
    Never believe those glasses you wear, John.

    Emperor7 (0c8c2c)

  82. So the post-partisan Barcky administration and the Dems as a whole are not shooting the messenger?

    JD (b527d1)

  83. Hey, Mario-troll, go check my link to that lib site where I talked about my saying the same thing about Rush’s ratings-boost he can expect to receive from the brain-dead liberals crying about him. Scroll up to find it, and the fun I had.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  84. lovey,
    God
    Forgives
    You

    Comment by Stashiu3 — 3/3/2009 @ 4:54 pm
    That’s just the problem. Which God are you talking about? What is His name?

    Emperor7 (0c8c2c)

  85. I say, shoot the messenger if the message is about hate, scorn and a wish for failure. Shoot the lousy messenger and the message will die. Just saying.

    Emperor7 (0c8c2c)

  86. Stashiu, I used to think that was beneath Lovey, but I was (for the life of me I cannot think of the appropriate dis- word) relieved of that illusion a month ago.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  87. Rebekkka – You need to have a talk with Lovie.

    JD (b527d1)

  88. And now Lovey is advocating the murder of ideological and political opponents. How Christian of Lovey.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  89. Comment by John Hitchcock — 3/3/2009 @ 5:01 pm
    What gives you the right to call someone else a “troll” here, John? Just asking.

    Emperor7 (0c8c2c)

  90. disabused?

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  91. What gives you the right to call someone else a “troll” here, John? Just asking.
    Comment by Emperor7 — 3/3/2009 @ 5:15 pm

    Their constant troll-like behavior. Just sayin’

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  92. That’s the word, Stashiu, thanks. I was disabused of my innocent belief Lovey was benign a month ago. I’ve been on this blog since some time in January, when I found blogs, and it took a couple weeks for my innocent belief of Lovey’s benign misunderstanding to vanish.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  93. Comment by JD — 3/3/2009 @ 5:13 pm
    You must have the thrills for this “Rebekkka” you keep talking about? Are you in love? :)

    Emperor7 (0c8c2c)

  94. “I have waited a long time to tell you what I think of you. And because I am a Christian, I can’t.”

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  95. “I have waited a long time to tell you what I think of you. And because I am a Christian, I can’t.”
    Comment by John Hitchcock — 3/3/2009 @ 5:25 pm

    (Aunt Em) Emily Gale, Wizard of Oz.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  96. Stashiu, you’re good.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  97. It’s a burden. 😉

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  98. Comment by Hax Vobiscum — 3/3/2009 @ 2:48 pm

    I got about three sentences into this…..post…..and thought to myself, self, this is really effin’ stooopid. This is ‘the poor kid was oxygen starved at birth’ stooopid. And then I saw who posted it.

    I was right.

    N. O'Brain (9056e2)

  99. See? You don’t even have to read much of what Snacks Nabisco posts to recognize the complete lack of adult thinking and the complete surrender to adult beverages.

    steve miller (c76b20)

  100. Jindal 101:

    Jindal supports ID

    Jindal signs bill

    LA BOE new policy

    sorry folks, but there is no room in public school for religious beliefs masquerading as science, and i will not support anyone who thinks otherwise. you want to teach your kids this, that’s your business, but do it on Sunday, and on your dime, not the tax payers.

    as i said before, i will not vote for Jindal.

    redc1c4 (9c4f4a)

  101. red1c4, changed moniker, check out that first post you made where you were corrected within your post, and go vote for Obama.

    Now, go away, since you obviously consider me a third-class sub-human barely primate.

    And, as Stashiu would say

    God
    Forgives
    You

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  102. It seems to be very very very important to the Left to search and destroy any potential messenger for the Republicans. From Barcky on down, including Rahmbo, all of the Dems, the media, etc … Chrissie Mathews had a whole segment on Rush tonight. Look at how they savaged Gov. Palin, Gov. Jindal, etc … The same actions towards a female Dem Gov. or a minority Dem Gov. would be denounced as hate speech from on high from now until the end of time.

    JD (11141b)

  103. # 103

    Jindal supports ID

    What a knuckle dragger!

    And there is no room in the GOP for those unevolved types now is there?

    ML (14488c)

  104. Amendment I

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press…………..

    Although Congress did not amend the amendment, the Supreme Court did. They had to usurp the rights of the States to do it; but who now cares?

    If schools are required to teach Darwinism, could that not also be considered by many to be a State-Sponsored Religion subject to the establishment clause?

    Leonardo DaFinchi (8c0a12)

  105. #85 So the post-partisan Barcky administration and the Dems as a whole are not shooting the messenger?

    Comment by JD — 3/3/2009 @ 5:01 pm

    JD, not sure if the “Baracky” administration is “shooting” the “messenger”. But I believe you if you say so.

    I know that they are not the only ones though. RNC Chairman Steele called him “Only Entertainment”. I hear Rush was not to happy about that :(

    What I find hard to believe is that Limbaugh is actually a “messenger”.

    After Steele helped shoot Limbaugh, he felt the need to apologized to him.

    Why did Steele do that? I think most here were o.k. with Limbaugh being called “entertainment”, it sure seemed to fit with him only being “A messenger”.

    No I think good old Rush is more than just an “Entertainer”, and certainly much more than a “messenger”.

    I noticed none of you will help Rush’s ratings by telling me when he is on.

    John H., sorry your going to have to post that link again.

    Sorry if I’m too lazy to search the comments today.

    Oiram (63d42a)

  106. Of course Steve Sailer at vdare has been investigating Obama merely by reading the mans books carefully, bringing all kinds of little known info to light. But Steve and vdare have noted the unfortunate facts that

    1) race matters in politics, education, and even economics and
    2) that whites (Euro-americans etc) stil make up 70+ of voters, and so a point gain among them is worth 5,6,7 points gain among blacks or hispanics.

    So their work will be ignored by mainstream ‘conservatives’.

    horace (547ced)

  107. Oiram,

    Just TIVO The View. It’s all you need to know.

    Leonardo DaFinchi (8c0a12)

  108. I noticed none of you will help Rush’s ratings by telling me when he is on.

    … and cast ye not pearls before swine?

    nk (502275)

  109. #110 Thanks Leonardo, but I can’t stand to watch those cats fight.

    I would rather listen to Rush directly.

    Oiram (63d42a)

  110. #103: I’m sure you are another concerned long term Republican, who….

    And try reading what Jindal actually wrote. It is about local control versus imposed standards. And before you answer quickly, keep in mind how abysmally poor secondary education is, right now, with Federal oversight.

    By the way, please describe for me the basic tenets of modern evolutionary synthesis. Don’t stint of phylogenetics and the New Synthesis. And please don’t just quote from Wikipedia.

    I mean, since it is your litmus test, I”m sure you have carefully researched your position, rather than just stating your political preferences. Your answer will demonstrate to me whether you are discussing protecting science, or simply being partisan.

    Eric Blair (8d54e0)

  111. But politics shouldn’t be about passions, it should be as the Federalist argued “the cool and deliberate sense of the community” that rules.

    Heh. The Founders were pretty darn passionate about their politics. Much more so than most people today, including Rush.

    Subotai (cab70b)

  112. #111 nk, your missing a beautiful opportunity to help your “messiah” get more ratings.

    Seriously I will listen to him, and an advertisement or two might permeate.

    Oiram (63d42a)

  113. I don’t mean to sound exasperated but I have been reviewing the “science curriculum” for my children. Oh. My. Lanta.

    I have this great idea. Before we get all hot and bothered about teaching ID versus Darwinian thought (and I am not a supporter of ID, incidentally), can we FIRST fix the teaching of science in general?

    Not to mention history?

    Eric Blair (8d54e0)

  114. sorry folks, but there is no room in public school for religious beliefs masquerading as science

    Dear God, he’s from Little Green Footballs!

    Isn’t there some internet law confining those people to their own reservation? Sorry, but Charles Johnson is as reputable a blogger as Andrew Sullivan.

    Subotai (cab70b)

  115. I say, shoot the messenger if the message is about hate, scorn and a wish for failure.

    Yes, I bet this was your constant refrain when Bush was in office and the messenger was the MSM.

    Subotai (cab70b)

  116. Err, it’s not Rush that’s the pearl, HV … if you get my drift.

    nk (502275)

  117. Comment by Eric Blair — 3/3/2009 @ 6:58 pm
    can we FIRST fix the teaching of science in general?

    Hear, hear.

    ML (14488c)

  118. ML, it’s truly awful.

    Eric Blair (8d54e0)

  119. As everybody knows, homo sapiens sapiens was created by Deucalion and Pyrrha throwing rocks back over their shoulders as they plowed the earth. Deucalion’s rocks became men and Pyrrha’s women. I really don’t see the need for further dsicussion.

    nk (502275)

  120. sorry folks, but there is no room in public school for religious beliefs masquerading as science, and i will not support anyone who thinks otherwise. you want to teach your kids this, that’s your business, but do it on Sunday, and on your dime, not the tax payers.

    Can we conduct a brief science quiz for you, since you are the expert ? Eric and I are really interested in your expertise.

    For example, tell us the role of mitochondria in evolution. That should be an easy one. After all, you are outraged because Jindal signed some legislation that allows ID to be taught in schools.

    I don’t want to argue in a vacuum, since you are so concerned that you plan to vote for Obama (nobody else will be the Dem nominee if Jindal is the GOP nominee), I think it would be good for us to be educated.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  121. Eric Blair

    A family member just got their AS and I read the biology text book, I do not have above a high school education so I can still think for myself.

    I agree, it was really truly awful.

    ML (14488c)

  122. Mike K – I did not get a chance to get back to you on your informative comment vis a vis “universal” healthcare. Our wires got crossed as what you describe as universal healthcare and what the Baracky’s and the meida reference when they speak of universal healthcare are vastly different. Thank you for your educational comments.

    With the exception of Robert and Rebekkka, I am doing a good job of ignoring the fooking trolls today. To the extent possible.

    Having said that, if Mario is unwilling to admit that Teh One has personally attacked Rush, then there is simply nothing more to say to it. That, we already knew, but holee keerist on a crutch. He called out Rush, by name. Rahmbo does the same. So does Stephanopolous. And the rest of the enablers.

    JD (11141b)

  123. Woops, I seem to have misplaced a willie-pete. Did any of you find it lying around somewhere? I sure would like it back before the gunny finds out it’s missing.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  124. Talk about not picking off Obama, what of the fact that Obama has ALL his records — from high school through law school — under seal? Why do we give him a pass on that? Moroever, he hires lawyers to quash every citizen-initiative to force him to prove his eligibility to occupy the Oval Office. Why do we give him a pass on that: Have none of us ever had to produce our birth certificate in order to receive a job or a license? It is really not a big deal, but it is getting bigger daily due to his obdurate refusal to release his birth certificate.

    man_in_tx (cc1aa4)

  125. Oh, Good Allah, not this again …

    JD (11141b)

  126. As far as I know, Dr. Capt. Mike K. and Eric Blair know more about evolution than anyone else here, so I suggest taking their views on the subject very seriously.

    Having said that, I’d like to cordially ask both to read Barbara Forrest’s article about the bill Jindahl signed, and give me their impression of it.

    Bradley J. Fikes (0ea407)

  127. If the Dow dropping to 6725 shows that Obama is succeeding, what does Obama failing look like?

    Another Chris (a3bb8f)

  128. In the past, we’ve taken on creationism and ID on debunkers. We’ve specifically addressed the sleight of hand that ID proponents use. I don’t think this is the place for that debate.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  129. SPQR,
    I think there is justification to discuss Jindahl’s views on the ID/creationism issue. If Jindahl is being slammed for views he doesn’t hold, I’d like to know, and others probably would as well.

    Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R., who wants DRJ back! (0ea407)

  130. Jindal is a snake-handling God-bothering theocon and that is all you need to know.

    /sarc

    JD (11141b)

  131. Any sensible person will vote, in the next election, for hot and cold running water, heated bathrooms and painless dentistry secure borders, a roof over his children’s heads, and food on the table, and leave God-bothering to those paid to do the job.

    nk (502275)

  132. Bradley, I am actually interested in this topic, so I will read your link and think about it.

    But this whole “Jindal is a Creationist” business is it’s own “Wedge Issue,” only from a partisan perspective (I know Bradley knows about the “Wedge Issue” and ID). Most of the people discussing this subject don’t know either theology or biology. So it comes down to “litmus test” bumper sticker style thought. In other words, partisanship, pure and simple.

    And as I say, the way we teach science in the schools, as is, independent of this topic, is horrific. It is as if the standards are intentionally designed to bore and confuse children. So part of me likes the idea of more accountable standards, which Federal strictures are not. Of course local districts could do bad things, too, but we know that the Feds are not doing their jobs now.

    Anyway, since I have little kids in school, this subject is not (forgive this) academic to me.

    The best solution to the Jindal issue is as follows: we need to spring this question on Barack Obama. No teleprompters. No prep time. Let’s see if he can define “ID” and “Darwinism” and comment on what should be taught or not taught in public schools.

    Oh, that’s right: he doesn’t like impromptu questions.

    This reminds me of the kerfluffle during the election regarding vaccines. McCain was portrayed as buying into the “mercury-autism” business. Fact was, Obama and Clinton didn’t look any different—all three candidates were dealing with parents of autistic children asking this question. None of them would openly state that there was no evidence of a connection (and the recent expose of the original research is even more disquieting). Were any of the candidates going to go for the jugular on that topic?

    Particularly because none of those candidates had any experience in medicine or basic biology.

    Yet the press didn’t hammer on Clinton or Obama on this issue…any more than they do regarding support of gay marriage by Obama.

    Nope. Only Republicans appear to be targets of the “intolerant meme.”

    Which is why this current business is frustrating to me.

    Jindal has a degree in biology. I think it is a great idea to ask him about this.

    Eric Blair (8d54e0)

  133. I’m glad we’re finally at a point in our political discourse where we can openly be ashamed of those who are religious. Silly fools preparing for the next life: they should concern themselves solely with this life.

    I don’t know if I’m being pragmatic or sarcastic.

    steve miller (c76b20)

  134. Oh. My. Lanta.

    Comment by Eric Blair — 3/3/2009 @ 6:58 pm
    #

    EB…there’s a lady on the line. Says her name is vivianlouise. Something about stealing her line. She’s armed, as you may remember. You’ll probably be okay with a sheepish grin.

    allan (646431)

  135. steve – I want to be clear that I had a /sarc tag on my comments.

    JD (11141b)

  136. Hi allan:

    I don’t know if Vivian Louise swims these waters, electronically. But I loved the line, and imitation remains the sincerest form of flattery.

    Thus, I publicly give credit to VL for that great line, and suggest the she trademark it. I would be happy to use it as follows:

    Oh. My. Lanta™

    Vivian Louise rocks. And I don’t say that in false flattery.

    Eric Blair (8d54e0)

  137. emperor7 said:

    I say, shoot the messenger if the message is about hate, scorn and a wish for failure. Shoot the lousy messenger and the message will die. Just saying.

    Well, that’s progressive in a sense. It has been done before with varied success: Kill everyone who disagrees with you. But, really, what is history but some old yellow books?

    Horace said:

    Of course Steve Sailer at vdare has been investigating Obama merely by reading the mans books carefully, bringing all kinds of little known info to light. But Steve and vdare have noted the unfortunate facts that:

    1) race matters in politics, education, and even economics and
    2) that whites (Euro-americans etc) stil make up 70+ of voters, and so a point gain among them is worth 5,6,7 points gain among blacks or hispanics.

    So their work will be ignored by mainstream ‘conservatives’.

    man_in_tx said:

    Talk about not picking off Obama, what of the fact that Obama has ALL his records — from high school through law school — under seal? Why do we give him a pass on that? Moroever, he hires lawyers to quash every citizen-initiative to force him to prove his eligibility to occupy the Oval Office. Why do we give him a pass on that: Have none of us ever had to produce our birth certificate in order to receive a job or a license? It is really not a big deal, but it is getting bigger daily due to his obdurate refusal to release his birth certificate.

    Do I smell something funny here? Yes I do. You both may be in the wrong place.

    Ag80 (3e2c59)

  138. Oh allan and Eric Blair, I am so telling Vivian Louise her name was bandied about while on the subject of Intelligent Design. How fitting!

    Dana (137151)

  139. If that is the VL on wordpress, that seems like a neat place. I will lurk and see what I think. She has spunk, it seems.

    JD (11141b)

  140. Now, Dana, don’t you go getting me into any trouble. I have always been a good fellow toward you (and VL, too). So be careful, please.

    The French Foreign Legion is not what it used to be.

    Eric Blair (8d54e0)

  141. JD, if you’re referring to the same VL that allan, Eric Blair and myself speak of, then “spunk” doesn’t begin to describe. She shoots straight, is smart as a whip and has a very low tolerance for stupid. Other than that, she’s as docile as Mary’s little lamb.

    Dana (137151)

  142. So, VL is an advocate of Intelligent Design?

    /ducks

    JD (11141b)

  143. # 136. “Wedge Issue,”

    You mean the one where certain “Christians” want to instill a theocracy here in America?
    Discovery Institute style?

    And here I thought all this “theocracy” crazy crap would end once Bush was out of office seeing there is no more excuse for BDS, but I see this will not end.

    I can tell from Bradley’s link, they are calling it a “stealth creationist bill” which says all I need to know, no partisanship involved in that writing, nope just the deformed facts.

    No offense meant to Bradley who I think makes outstanding comments.

    ML (14488c)

  144. Oh JD, I’m not really pointing fingers here; certainly I wasn’t picking up something from you. I’m just pointing out that there seems to be a general consensus that it’s fair game on the religious. That we can make fun of Jindal because he’s a believer in something other than the omnicompetent government and the blissful goodness of the human heart. What we want in America is people who claim to be believers but wink wink are really and openly hypocritical about belief rather than people who are sincerely believers & fail to live up to their standards. We all like it when Clinton waves a Bible at us, but we cringe when Bush talks about Jesus, because we all know that Clinton doesn’t really mean it, but Bush really does.

    steve miller (c76b20)

  145. Dana – I think I will like her. A lot.

    JD (11141b)

  146. Oh, Eric Blair, you’ve been swimming with the sharks too much today! Vivian Louise would be nothing less than flattered and smile widely. Lighten up and remember who your friends are.

    Dana (137151)

  147. I always thought the the Mary’s Little Lamb story would have been better had it ended with a bone-in rib rack and some subtle mint jelly.

    JD (11141b)

  148. Mr. Miller: I am supposing you are not a Christian. Christians are not called to p*ss on their brothers’ faith as haphazardly as you have just done with President Clinton. Unless you can claim you know him personally, I believe that is exactly what you have done.

    Ed from PA (d99227)

  149. FWIW, I get the pleasure of buying Scott Jacobs dinner tomorrow night.

    JD (11141b)

  150. JD

    I would like that pleasure, I hope you have a good time.

    ML (14488c)

  151. Thank you, Dana. You are kind as always. Perhaps I need a shark-billy.

    JD, VL is a very interesting read. Well worth your time. What I admire most about her is that she genuinely doesn’t care what people think of her ideas. Not in a truculent way, and never rudely. And never with the intent of being rude. It’s a strong, self-confident attitude.

    ML, I’m guessing that ID would be a white phosphorus grenade discussion here and now. I have deep concerns about ID. But we also have a system that openly injects its politics into the lives of children.

    How about we just have schools, well, teach instead of indoctrinate? I’ll bet we can agree on that one.

    Why, my second grader had a “Pledge of Allegiance to the Planet” the students all said once a week. It included this great line at the end: “...and birds and plants and fishes and animals with clean air and water, living together with peace and freedom everywhere.

    Ever the smart-aleck, in my mind added (to that last line):

    “…except for those animals and planet we kill and eat or otherwise bend to our will.”

    Sigh.

    Eric Blair (8d54e0)

  152. Hey, JD, no Flaming Sword of Carnivory? Seriously, have a great time.

    Eric Blair (8d54e0)

  153. So, VL is an advocate of Intelligent Design?

    Isn’t every smart woman?

    :)

    Dana (137151)

  154. Dana, that reminds me of the great quote by Gandhi. Some journalist asked him what he thought of Western Civilization.

    He replied that it sounded like a good idea.

    Eric Blair (8d54e0)

  155. # 154. Eric Blair

    How about we just have schools, well, teach instead of indoctrinate? I’ll bet we can agree on that one.
    Yes we can, today our schools indoctrinate they do not educate.

    and plants and fishes and animals with clean air and water, living together with peace and freedom everywhere.”
    Anyone who has had a Cichlid fish tank knows “fish” do not live in peace, unless they are eating smaller fish.

    ML (14488c)

  156. Vivian “Lycopene Goddess” as I call her, or “Sweet Tomatos” — she loves gardening. Haven’t seen that name in some weeks. Far too long.

    On the ID/creationist front, I linked to Barbara Forrest because she is an expert on the subject, not some know-nothing political hack. Forrest testified at Kitzmiller vs. Dover, and by all accounts her testimony was persuasive. For example, she documented that Of Pandas and People had swapped out the word “creationists” for “intelligent design proponents” in the edition the school district used. That gave the lie to the school district’s claim that intelligent design was different from creationism.

    In one case, Forrest found, the search-and-replace went awry, leading to “cdesign proponentsists”. A transitional fossil!

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  157. ML – If you are going to be in Central Illinois tomorrow evening, feel free to join us. I had a Jack Dempsey fish in an aquarium that kept eating the other fish until its stomach blew up.

    Eric – No flaming sword of carnivory (good word) but I did see a 42oz t-bone of the menu.

    JD (11141b)

  158. JD

    Thank you, I would like nothing better
    But I am stuck way out on the left coast.

    ML (14488c)

  159. I will someday be making, in the not so distant future, my bi-annual trek to LA, or rather, Pasadena, to visit family.

    JD (11141b)

  160. JD

    When you do and if you have time, I will take you to dinner.

    ML (14488c)

  161. JD, perhaps we can get a meetup scheduled around your visit.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  162. I had a lemon yellow Labidochromis (which is supposed to be mild, as cichlids go) that I named Hannibal Lecter (“Do not approach the glass. Do not touch the glass.”).

    Hannibal ate any other denizen of her little tank. This included the two freshwater crabs I named Britney and Xtina.

    In Amarillo, you need to make a pilgrimage to the Big Texas Steakhouse.

    http://www.bigtexan.com/free72.html

    72 ounce steak. Yow.

    Eric Blair (8d54e0)

  163. Yes, Brother Bradley, that would be something that I would truly enjoy. Everyone else, not so much.

    JD (11141b)

  164. Yum on the steak.

    steve miller (c76b20)

  165. Am I to assume that if I can eat a 72oz steak I get it for free? Good Allah, those folks will lose some money, as I will be adding Amarillo to my next Harley excursion.

    JD (11141b)

  166. They have a chalkboard there. There is a space for name, weight before the meal, weight after the meal, and comments.

    Now you would expect that big beefy Y chromosomal types would be the winners. But there were quite a few petite women who got a free steak.

    My favorite, from years ago, was a woman who weighed in about about 112 pounds. For her comment (after she had successfully consumed that 72 ounce steak in one hour), she wrote: “Where’s dessert?”

    The place is unique.

    Eric Blair (8d54e0)

  167. I think you have to eat the steak (including the fat) & all the trimmin’s. I’m just guessing, but IIRC, some other restaurants I’ve been to have those restrictions.

    72oz of steak is a lot of steak. One strategy would be to get it medium well so it had less juice and fat.

    steve miller (c76b20)

  168. Pasadena has one of LA’s top ten steak houses.

    The Arroyo Chop House, pricy but really good.

    ML (14488c)

  169. Would someone please teach mariO how to use Google so that he may find out when Rush is on the radio in his area?

    Or would it be easier if the Troll,j.g.., would just pull its’ head out of it’s backside, and navigate away from here?

    AD - RtR/OS (e4c8ef)

  170. Rare and bleeding, and this is one contest that I am going to complete. Better Half got quite pissed at me when I made it a goal to eat a 32 oz burger, after being cooked, which is gifreakingnormous.

    ML – Love Arroyo. I think we ate at the Water Grille in downtown LA last time we were out there. Dux in Malibu for the view. And usually much Vietnamese food in the OC.

    JD (11141b)

  171. Bradley – I took a spin through Barbara Forrest’s piece you linked and her prior front page piece on that site and frankly found them both offensive and biased. She’s typical of the folks Ben Stein interviewed in his movie “Expelled,” in that even talking about any subject other than Darwinism is an attack on academic freedom, yet the purpose of many of the bills and discussions is to promote freedom of thought and ideas. Forrest prefers not to focus on Jindal’s actual words, but to interpret them as code for what “he really means” according to her fears and her agenda. It’s a classic device to shut your opponent down. The Darwinists are as interested in discussion as the global warming alarmists and have persecuted people who have dared to raise flaws in evolutionary theory just as vehemently as Hansen and his ilk as demonstrated by Stein.

    I have no investment in either theory, but I have a very big problem with intellectual dishonesty and Forrest’s is on display big time in her pieces. The Darwinist’s have no answer for the original origin of life, but want to shut down all discussion anyway under the guise of a separation of church and state or academic freedom or whatever the convenient excuse of the day happens to be. To me it’s just plain old intolerance.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  172. AD – It has an inoperable cranial rectal inversion.

    JD (11141b)

  173. There are few problems that cannot be solved with the proper application of HE!

    AD - RtR/OS (e4c8ef)

  174. Anytime you see things like “what he really means” you can generally assume that what follows has little to nothing to do with what the fellow actually meant.

    JD (11141b)

  175. daleyrocks,
    We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  176. # 173.
    I will have to try the Water Grill, the wife loves seafood, for me it better have been walking before I am going to eat it.

    I have also been to The Palm in downtown LA and of course Lawry’s prime rib.
    I really miss Ed Debevic’s, I think Chicago still has one.

    ML (14488c)

  177. Bradley – Fine with me. If you haven’t seen Expelled, you should rent it. As JD point out, anyone who says ignore his words, they’re code for something else, what he really means is…., is not writing from a straight up point of view.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  178. Hi daley:

    I think that certitude among anyone is dangerous, and it sounds like you agree with me. There are atheists who are quite aggressive about issues, and ditto some fundamentalist Christians. The passion on both sides is heartfelt, and the arguing quickly devolves into name-calling, and that serves neither side well. In my opinion.

    It’s a complicated universe—in terms of science or theology. It’s like many people on both sides of this issue are reliving the Tower of Babel story from the Good Book.

    Both sides need to respect one another and not misrepresent what each “side” believes. And there is a lot of that going around.

    The sad part is that this is being debated as part of education in schools—when, again, we know our schools are not doing a great job at educating our kids (compared to some time ago—more and more money solves no problem other than administrative costs, it seems to me). And that’s not the fault of (most) teachers.

    If I didn’t know better, I would suspect some kind of malign supernatural influence is keeping so many good folks fighting about this issue instead of looking for common ground.

    And my post is not in response to the content of what you wrote, daley. Other than your impatience with people misunderstanding and misrepresenting one another. And I certainly agree with that.

    Eric Blair (8d54e0)

  179. Was Ed Debevic’s that place where they prided themselves on the waitresses being rude?

    Weber Grill restaurants are quickly becoming one of my favorites.

    JD (11141b)

  180. “Weber Grill restaurants”

    I’m not sure if this is real or not. In my world, a Weber Grill is a backyard cooker. Are you saying tongue-in-cheek you like to grill on the backyard grill?

    Sorry, but it’s late, and I’ve been editing documents for about 5 hours now, so I’m tired, grumpy – and hungry for barbecue.

    steve miller (c76b20)

  181. Eric – Karl had a link to a Times Picayune story describing the bill in one of the earliest comments to the thread that I’ll provide again below, but I think you read my frustration correctly.

    http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-11/1214544197127670.xml&coll=1

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  182. “what he really means” is in the same class of phrases as “So, what you are really saying is …”. What follows is rarely an accurate description of what came before.

    Personally, I came from primordial ooze. Just sayin’

    JD (11141b)

  183. No, steve miller. The grill company has added a growing chain of restaurants to their wonderful brand, where they cook on huge grills, over real charcoal. It is … sublime.

    JD (11141b)

  184. JD

    That is the one, we don’t have culture like that here in LA, so we pay big bucks to eat hamburgers and be called names by the help in Beverly Hills no less.

    Damn I miss that place.

    ML (14488c)

  185. I love a good meal. Especially if it consists of dead animals, dry-aged, and seared over an insanely hot grill, served semi-bleeding. Isn’t there some religion that worships cows? I worship them, just in a different manner.

    JD (11141b)

  186. ML – I will go to the one in Chicago next week, and report back to you.

    JD (11141b)

  187. Hey, Dana, if you do tattle to VL, ask her if she still has that lavender scented Glock-on-a-rope in her shower.

    allan (646431)

  188. Every time I see the word “wedge”, 2 thoughts leap to my mind, immediately.

    1) I need all of this global warming to go away so I can get to the driving range and start getting my golf game tuned up.
    2) Nishit from PW’s fevered rantings about the wedge strategy.

    JD (11141b)

  189. Except for the semi-bleeding part, I’m there. I like it rare-to-medium-rare – I don’t like it dark red and squishy. I like it red to pink, where the meat has firmed up a bit.

    If you like BBQ, there are two (very different) places in the Seattle area I love: Pecos Pit down on 4th, I think, and Dixies over across the water on 24th.

    steve miller (c76b20)

  190. JD

    The atomic fries are what I really miss and the atomic burger, maybe its that baby eating conservative in me that just loves that kind of stuff.

    ATOMIC FRIES Spice up our Fries with our famous atomic mix*, cheddar cheese sauce and freshly grated cheddar cheese.
    *Atomic Mix; Diced Jalapenos, onions and tomatoes.*INDICATES HOT & SPICY

    Good stuff, well it was at the one in Beverly Hills.

    ML (14488c)

  191. Now you have me thinking about brisket. I ate at this amazing little BBQ joint in Austin, TX. It was located inside a gas station. Good Allah, was it ever good. They served lean brisket, and the piece d’resistance, fatty brisket. They also had jalapeno sausage, smoked ____ insert dead animal, and the best BBQ sauce I have ever had. To top it all off, they served soda in the old fashioned 12 oz bottles, straight out of an ice filled cooler. I ate for almost 2 straight hours. You could order meat by the pound. I was happy.

    JD (11141b)

  192. In your honor, ML, I will abuse my system, and have the Atomic Fries. Since the removal of my gall bladder, eating such food tends to have a rather explosive effect on me. But I am a team player.

    JD (11141b)

  193. Alright, that did not sound right.

    JD (11141b)

  194. that sounds so good.
    Don’t make me go start that damn smoker, the porkbutt is frozen.

    I saw the Weber gill restaurant on TV, man wouldn’t that be a good place to eat.
    Of course I am partial to my own grilling and BBQ,
    I am a legend in my own backyard as I like to proclaim.

    ML (14488c)

  195. I need to stop reading now, or I will need to leave the house and find a 24 hour BBQ stand.

    steve miller (c76b20)

  196. daleyrocks,
    Thanks, but I have no desire to see Expelled. Let me tell you why and please be patient while I unburden myself. You asked me, so I’m going to ramble a bit. Please take this in the good spirit in which I mean this. . .

    . . .While I type this, I can see a copy of Henry Morris’ Scientific Creationism I picked up more than 25 years ago. It was perhaps the first popular book on modern creationism. I’ve read Behe’s book, Darwin’s Black Box, which was a biggie of the ID movement. And I’ve looked at creationists Web sites such as Answers in Genesis. This is to show that I’ve looked at the ID/creationist side. I’ve also got various books on aspects of evolution. Studying evolution has been kind of a hobby for me ever since college nearly three decades ago.

    In my day job covering the life sciences, I’ve reported on evolutionary discoveries from local scientific institutions in my area, such as the Salk Institute and The Scripps Research Institute. I had the pleasure a few years ago of interviewing Mark Perakh, a true Renaissance man of science, on evolution. I’ve written about biotech companies that apply Darwinian principles of mutation and selection to develop new drugs, and recently wrote about the importance of evolutionary theory to modern biological science.

    And, of course, I’ve followed the publicity regarding Expelled and read the articles about it. But as you may have guessed by now, I don’t think there’s anything in Expelled I haven’t considered before. And Ben Stein talking about evolution is like Al Gore talking about global warming — neither are scientists or primary sources.

    So please be assured that I have devoted ample time to considering the intelligent design/creationist arguments from all perspectives.

    One more thing — please don’t trust what Ben Stein says about the economy.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  197. JD, lol

    Don’t do that, food is to enjoy if atomic is not your style, please don’t do it!

    ML (14488c)

  198. Goodnight, all. It has been an absolute pleasure to converse with you all, sans the asshats trolls that have been inhabiting this place recently. I forgot how nice it is to have normal conversations and actual discussions.

    Final thought … if someone went into a restaurant, and said “I would like a pound of your best bacon”, do you think they would do it?

    JD (11141b)

  199. Oh, one final thought, until I big you farewell.

    Baracky has been giving lip service to this “no earmarks” crap, a lie so brazen that I am surprised that even he can pull it off. Now, he is poised to sign another bill from Congress that has over 8500 earmarks in it, and Gibbs tells us that the no earmarks pledge only applies in the future, not on housecleaning bills, despite this bill being in the hundreds of millions of dollars, with at least $32,000,000,000 in earmark spending.

    We can count on the media to point out that Baracky is just pissing on yet another campaign promise, and just flat out lying to us, repeatedly.

    JD (11141b)

  200. Hundreds of millions should be hundreds of billions, but what are a couple hundred billion dollars anymore? Is this the same person that had the audacity to tell us that there were some tough choices ahead, and that we were going to have to show some fiscal restraint? This orgy of spending makes Bush look like a piker.

    JD (11141b)

  201. Bradley – Spoken like a true denialist. I appreciate you outlining your prior research. The parts of Expelled I found fascinating were the Darwinists’ inability to explain the origins of life – Dawkins with a spaceship landing on earth theory, others with eaqually bizarre theories compared to what they called the superstition of religionists. Truly ironic and Dawkins seemed a little pissed off and embarrassed that his interview was going to be used in the movie. Another great part was interviewing scientists, not just in academic settings, who had raised doubts about portions of Darwinism and been punished by the establishment or academy for their views. Most of the movie is in interview format rather than lecture format so you don’t have to worried about absorbing Stein’s views, but I feel I’m grown up enough to make my own decisions. I do appreciate your caution though. The global warming alarmists won’t consider current views of skeptics either.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  202. Bradley

    As a proponent of ID although not a scientist just a layman and a lay, layman at that, I can easily respect your opinion and position.

    Now I have not seen Expelled, but I did read the government report from 2006 on the controversy and I can say it sure looks like the Smithsonian’s top official’s did perpetrate nothing but religious discrimination against Dr. Sternberg. And they did this on my dime! Which is not taken kindly by me.

    ML (14488c)

  203. daleyrocks,
    I arrived at my views over decades, considering evidence from all sides. By contrast your evidence is from one movie. And you call me a “denialist”!

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  204. ML,
    You said the Smithsonian perpetrated “religious discrimination” against Sternberg. Would you elaborate on just what it did to merit that characterization?

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  205. Brother Bradley, yes I would be happy to.
    From the report named “Intolerance and the politicization of science at the smithsonian”

    In emails exchanged during August and September 2004, NMNH officials revealed their intent to use their government jobs to discriminate against scientists based on their outside activities regarding evolution. For example, Dr. Hans Sues, Associate Director for Research and Collections, suggested in emails on August 30, 2004, and again on September 9, 2004, that Dr. Sternberg would never have been appointed as an RA if Smithsonian officials had known about his non-governmental activities regarding evolution. Sues even blamed the scientist who nominated Sternberg as a Research Associate for not adequately investigating his background:

    Its pure religious discrimination cloaked as “science”, so its OK.

    ML (14488c)

  206. And I should add this:

    The clear implication was that had a background check been conducted on Sternberg’s non-governmental activities, he would have been barred from being a Research Associate. Given the attitudes expressed in these emails, scientists who are known to be skeptical of Darwinian theory, whatever their qualifications or research record, cannot expect to receive equal treatment or consideration by NMNH officials. As a taxpayer-funded institution, such blatant discrimination against otherwise qualified individuals based on their outside views and activities raises serious free speech and civil rights concerns. With regard to Dr. Sternberg, this discriminatory attitude makes it all-but-impossible

    Nice for this to happen today, but then I would argue that Christian beliefs are the only ones open to ridicule, Moslems, Buddhist, Hindu’s, secular humanist, not so much

    ML (14488c)

  207. Link:
    UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
    COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM
    DECEMBER 2006
    ________________________________________________
    INTOLERANCE AND THE POLITICIZATION OF SCIENCE AT THE SMITHSONIAN

    ML (14488c)

  208. “By contrast your evidence is from one movie.”

    Bradley – That you choose to draw an incorrect conclusion from my comments illustrates your inherent bias on the subject as did your selection of link to describe the bill passed in Louisiana, which was the equivalent of linking to Kos or TPM to support an anti-Bush position. It’s not surprising you would not want to view Stein’s film, most of the Darwinist community was up in arms that it even came out and tried to have it supressed. Since you haven’t seen it, your attempts to describe it are laughable. Not wanting to see the film is understandable. People who have views set in stone feel threatened by considering thoughts which may cause them to question those views.

    I thought we were agreeing to disagree.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  209. Intelligent people should always keep discussion of Intelligent Design at a lighthearted level because it is in fact a discussion of religion. It always leads to God, no matter how much we may try to avoid saying “the G-word”.

    nk (502275)

  210. Not wanting to see the film is understandable.

    But if you do want to see it, and you’ve got Netflix, you can watch it online.

    Pablo (99243e)

  211. daleyrocks,
    I thought we were agreeing to disagree.

    When you began your reply by saying, “Spoken like a true denialist,” that was going beyond disagreement into taunting. I’m sure had I called you a “denialist,” you would have taken umbrage.

    In agreeing to disagree, refraining from mocking one another’s views should be understood. I’ll try to live up to my part.

    Just to show I’m not fearful of the movie, I’ll go rent it and tell you if I learned anything new.

    Peace,

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  212. #198 JD:

    Alright, that did not sound right.

    The good news is, that after a while your body will adjust better to not having the gall bladder, and your digestion should return pretty close to normal.

    (Actually, I not sure that mine isn’t better than before…but that could just be that I’m eating rather than drinking my calories.)

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  213. ML,
    Intelligent design advocates claim their view is scientific, not religious. So by claiming Sternberg was the victim of “religious discrimination”, you imply intelligent design is religious. If that is so, it would preclude intelligent design from being taught in public school science classes. That’s why the Discovery Institute clings to the fig leaf that ID is a scientific view. The Kitzmiller vs. Dover decision (PDF) ground that argument into the dust.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  214. I am a proponent of ID, just to be clear. I also don’t think science disproves God.

    I did think it was hilarious during the Richard Dawkins interview with Ben Stein that he stated he prefers the “Aliens seeded the earth with life” theory all the while demanding I stop believing in God. I laughed rather long at that one.

    There are usefull dividends to looking at the world through a Darwinist eye. There are also usefull dividends to looking at the world through an ID eye.

    Vivian Louise (eeeb3a)

  215. Hello, Vivian. Thanks to my good friends here, I ran across your blog last night. Good stuff.

    JD (63d902)

  216. Hello, Lycopene Goddess!

    Glad you could join us!

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  217. Intelligent design advocates claim their view is scientific, not religious. So by claiming Sternberg was the victim of “religious discrimination”, you imply intelligent design is religious.

    But BJF, is that not the basis of the difference?

    A. If you believe in Intelligent Design, does that not also demand belief in a Designer?

    B. From a strict Darwinist/Athiest view point is it not true that belief in a higher power or “Designer” would equal religion since Athieism acknowledges no designer, no higher power.

    Other than the occasional alien life gardening mission, that is. Though, is the alien a higher power or just a being further along the evolutionary road, I don’t know. Of course, the alien seeding theory then also acknowledges a designer, since the seeds of life would have been designed (or is it hybridized, again I don’t know) for this planet. But that’s just Dawkins theory. I digress.

    If A and B are true then would the issue not always be religious discrimination if the ID’ers ideas are silenced?

    I know many agnostics that entertain the thoughts of ID without suddenly taking vows. ID is not a single religion’s domain. Rather is it the point of view of any person of faith (in varying degrees.)

    Vivian Louise (eeeb3a)

  218. Bradley is an honest broker, I can assure you of that – he often bends over backwards to see the other side of things, regardless of his current positions. If more reporters tried emulating his actions today, what a different media world we’d be experiencing at present.

    And Vivian Louise is indeed awesome – the refugees among us from Cathy’s World still miss her keen and often hilarious insights that we read on a daily basis there. Perhaps Dana could ask her to join us sometime (I hope!).

    Dmac (49b16c)

  219. Hi guys! (DMAC, you could ask me. I might even blush and agree.)

    Vivian Louise (eeeb3a)

  220. Wow, that was quick! Welcome, VL!

    Dmac (49b16c)

  221. A bit late since I shut down early last night but anyway…

    When I drove truck, I would often pull in to an Iron Skillet (restaurant tied to Petro). They had a free 3-lb hamburger on their menu, complete with baked potato and house salad. Free if you could finish the entire meal within the hour. And they had photos of all the guys and gals that completed the task. Most of the photos were of lightweights.

    I never stopped in at the Amarillo truckstop, but I saw the signs a couple hundred miles out. I asked around and everyone I asked, over a 2-year period, said the tater and salad was proportionate in size to the 72-oz steak. And, yes, you had to eat the rabbit food and the spud and the steak in the hour for it to be free.

    Make mine extra-rare. Shave it, slap it, put it on a plate.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  222. Oops, don’t mind my unintentional derail of a suddenly warming discourse. And, VL, I’ve heard nothing but good things about you. Hope you hang around this blog from this day forward. 😉

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  223. I am soooooo going to Amarillo. That sounds like the title to a country song.

    EW1 – same here. Any idea on how long it takes for your system to adjust to life sans gall bladder?

    JD (63d902)

  224. Hi Vivian Louise, a.k.a. Lycopene Goddess,

    You raise a very good point:

    A. If you believe in Intelligent Design, does that not also demand belief in a Designer?

    Indeed, that is so! However, the Intelligent Design proponents say (trying to keep a straight face) the designer doesn’t have to be a deity. It could be the alien gardener you referenced. Of course, the ID proponents in practice say the Designer is a Deity, but they claim this is just their religious faith, as distinguished from their scientific views. They say ID can be taught as science without teaching religion.

    These claims are made for a legal reason: Courts have consistently struck down mandates for teaching religion in public schools, especially in science classes.

    ID could be taught without controversy in comparative religion classes as a religious concept. But the ID folks want to get the status of a science. Hence the various legal challenges. A better approach would be to make scientific discoveries based upon principles of ID, and then let the data speak for themselves.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  225. Thank you, Dmac.
    Indeed, the lovely and perceptive photo maven Dana has appeared from time to time here. Just let your cursor hover over the name, to distinguish her from the other most worthy Dana Of Many Titles.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  226. JH, good steak is NEVER an interuption. Ever.

    Vivian Louise (eeeb3a)

  227. But Bradley, you missed my point: Richard Dawkins, Captain Darwin, was the one who thinks that aliens seeded the earth. The alien thing is an evolutionists theory. Dawkins, you know, the Darwinist, Mr. Evolution, Strict Athiest, Col. Anti-ID; HE is the one who advocated the Aliens-Seeded-The-Earth theory.

    Thus, I submit, He, Richard Dawkins, is ALSO a proponent of ID.

    Are you with me here?

    Vivian Louise (eeeb3a)

  228. I have always been of the belief that evolutionists need to believe in more miracles than creationists. Since VL is here and correct me, I don’t believe any “missing links” have ever been found in the fossil records. And many of the main “missing link” finds have later been discredited as frauds, such as a pig jaw that the finder then filed the teeth down if I remember an example correctly.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  229. Man, if we could get Nancy L. to drop in, that would complete the circle (well, almost).

    Dmac (49b16c)

  230. Whoops, make that just Nancy.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  231. I read most of the thread. The Jindal thing is a canard just as the same attack on Plain was a canard. There are people who believe in literal interpretation of the Bible. I don’t care about that except I don’t want them going to medical school. Hugh Hewitt is a creationist and I guess that is OK in a lawyer. It is not science and has no place in science. The Pope has already said that the Catholic Church has no problem with evolution. If Intelligent Design people want to say that ID resulted in the rules for molecular biology being written, it’s OK with me. The fact is that evolution is at the heart of most of the biological engineering progress we will make in the next century.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  232. JH, I just believe in God, the God of the New and Old Testament. I believe that He created the earth and all that is in it, on it and above it. I believe that He created the universe. I believe He created it for His glory.

    What I don’t claim to understand are the mechanisms he used to create everything, or His timeline.

    So far I have seen nothing to convince me otherwise. I am not a paleontologist. I’m not a scientist of any sort. I’ve never even played one on TV.

    Vivian Louise (eeeb3a)

  233. Vivian Louise, aka Sweet Tomatoes,

    I did get that point about Dawkins and the alien gardener concept. (Other scientists, such as the late Francis Crick, have advanced it). However, what Dawkins is talking about is quite different than what the Intelligent Design movement is about:

    – Dawkins advances the alien gardener concept as an adjunct to evolution. He doesn’t deny that evolution took place here, but conjectures life may have been seeded here in a primitive form. In Dawkins’ view, life arose from inorganic chemicals somewhere.

    – The ID people position their idea as an alternative to evolution. Unlike Dawkins, they don’t actually think the alien gardener idea may be true. They advance it purely as a legal argument, to get ID taught in science classrooms. Their true agenda is to advance their religious views by discrediting evolution as a scientific theory. In short, the ID people are arguing in bad faith. That is what keeps them getting slapped down in the courts.

    So while there are superficial similarities between Dawkins and the ID proponents with the alien gardener, they just don’t hold up under close examination.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  234. BJF – This is where we just shake hands and have a beer.

    Vivian Louise (eeeb3a)

  235. Heh, alright. Since my vivid memories rarely have names attached, I’m terrible with names and faces, it makes it that much harder for me to source my information. And, unlike that foray I made onto that liberal blogsite, this place lives and breathes sourcing.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  236. …unless you’re Max Vomitorium.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  237. Bradley

    With all due respect I think you are missing the point, my point is not whether ID is science or not. Dr Sternberg only allowed the pro-ID article to be published in their journal, he did not write it. NMNH officials say very clearly that had they known Dr Sternberg was “religious” they would have never allowed him through the door. Despite his overwhelming qualifications.

    I wonder how many other publicly funded institutions can openly exclude others because they do not agree with their personal views?

    And no matter what, if Dr Sternberg broke certain rules at NMNH then why did they only attack his personal beliefs and ridicule him for that and only that?

    This is nothing but open religious discrimination being cloaked as “science” this and that.

    ML (14488c)

  238. There are two signs being waved up there in the Peanut Gallery. One says “evolution is a process, not a design”, and there’s an apple dangling from it. The other has “intelligent design is too long to print out on this little poster, but it is a design, not a process”. An orange has been jammed onto the sharpened poster tip. The poster wavers are cautiously circling one another, but at a respectful distance. Could it end in a fruitful impasse?

    allan (9e9124)

  239. “A better approach would be to make scientific discoveries based upon principles of ID, and then let the data speak for themselves.”

    Bradley – I agree with this and/or to explain where evolutionary theory fails as an explanation of what has happened. You are in agreement above that the Darwinists seem to believe in the involvement of some sort of Higher Power in sparking life on earth. They don’t seem to have other rational or “scientific” explanations. It’s tough to see where this puts them on a different plane then ID proponents for at least part of the job yet you would exclude the ID folks based on your assumptions on what they have to say. I haven’t seen a curriculum for what the Louisiana Bill portends, but I would be interested in taking a look if you have. Stuff I’ve seen looks at poking holes in Darwinism rather than injecting religion into the classroom, but the secularists are so rabidly afraid of religion that all dissent is automatically quashed, erased and punished. You’ve seen the same phenomenon with global warming skepticism in this country.

    Your mileage obviously varies.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  240. Ah yes, the example of spin:

    Part Of my comment at #109:

    JD, not sure if the “Baracky” administration is “shooting” the “messenger”. But I believe you if you say so.

    I meant that sincerely JD, especially the “I believe you if you say so” part.

    You responded to that by saying: (By the way Oiram = Mario in JD’s spun world.)

    JD at #126
    if Mario is unwilling to admit that Teh One has personally attacked Rush, then there is simply nothing more to say to it. That, we already knew, but holee keerist on a crutch. He called out Rush, by name. Rahmbo does the same. So does Stephanopolous. And the rest of the enablers.

    Sorry I missed the attack JD. Again, I believe you.

    So tell me please where am I “unwilling” to admit it?

    This is why you are a “spinmeister” in my book.

    Oiram (983921)

  241. Would someone please teach mariO how to use Google so that he may find out when Rush is on the radio in his area?

    Or would it be easier if the Troll,j.g.., would just pull its’ head out of it’s backside, and navigate away from here?

    Comment by AD – RtR/OS — 3/3/2009 @ 10:01 pm

    (mariO also equals Oiram in AD’s semi spun world)

    Hey Ad, I’m in front of a computer 8 to 10 hours a day working (contrary to the slushy comments here which I happily partake in as well).

    I figured I could still be productive in my job and use your fast fingers to relay something to me that might help further your conservative cause…… finding Limbaugh on my radio dial.

    If you think it’s a good idea for people like me to “navigate” away from here, then you really are only interested in preaching to your choir.

    Good Luck in furthering your agenda.

    Oiram (983921)

  242. 640 on my AM dial 9 – 12

    Rush lost almost two hours worth of ratings from me because of you guys.

    Way to go.

    Oiram (983921)

  243. So, Mario … don’t Baracky and Rahmbo have more important things to do than to attack Rush?

    JD (ee3e5b)

  244. #247 Absolutely JD, they do. I’m not happy with Obama’s attacks. It gives too much importance to Rush.

    But then again, Limbaugh’s ratings as well as Steele’s need to apologize to him also gives too much importance to him.

    Oiram (983921)

  245. Apparently Baracky thinks it is more important to attack Rush than to provide stewardship of this economy that just plowed past 7000. According to Baracky, economic doom is looming, and he and Rahm and their pals in the media cannot find anything better to do than to attack a talk show host. Fucking pathetic, especially coming from the post-partisan uniter that brings people together.

    How do Limbaugh’s ratings give too much importance to Limbaugh?

    JD (ee3e5b)

  246. This is why you are a “spinmeister” in my book.

    Don’t you have a horse you need to service immediately?

    Dmac (49b16c)

  247. Dmac – It’s the other way around. The horse has the need. Oiram is the catcher.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  248. There is no “spin” in reversing a childishly chosen reversed name. Switching it back to Mario is simply removing the childish reversing. And, yes, I saw lots of names on MUDs where people simply chose to write common words in reverse and declare that a legit name.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  249. Mario – How do Rush’s ratings give Rush too much importance?

    JD (63d902)

  250. JD, I would believe it’s the same way all those Bible sales give the Bible too much importance in the daily lives of anyone. Ya know?

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  251. #253 Notice how clever JD is in sidestepping Steele?

    Interesting

    Oiram (983921)

  252. the secularists are so rabidly afraid of religion that all dissent is automatically quashed, erased and punished.

    I don’t want to belabor this but the concern is the dismal state of science and math education we have now. I don’t consider myself a “secularist” (although I’m vague about exactly what that is) but molecular biology is far beyond Darwin, who did not know how evolution happened, and is the basis of enormous and important scientific discoveries every day. This is just not a worthwhile debate for religious people to take on. It makes them look unnecessarily foolish.

    I would strongly (and futilely, I fear) urge religious people to get off the subject of evolution.

    Now, I think the subject was Limbaugh.

    MIke K (8df289)

  253. #253 Hey Hitch, does one person or company get all the justified royalties to the bible?

    I mean it sold more than any other book.

    The Godfather continues to sell pretty well too, and only one publisher will forever receive the royalties.

    Explain the “free market” to me concerning The Bible.

    Spare me that God receives the “Royalties”.

    I’m talking about dollars, that is after all what you meant by your comment.

    Oiram (983921)

  254. #252 O.k. kcochctiH nhoJ :(

    Oiram (983921)

  255. Hey DJ spin me a new song would Ja?

    Oiram (983921)

  256. “I would strongly (and futilely, I fear) urge religious people to get off the subject of evolution.”

    Mike K – I don’t consider myself particularly religious and oppose having frothing fundamentalists in the classroom. I nevertheless want to hear what those expressing doubt about Darwinism have to say. They instead immediately get branded as religious nuts. You see it on this thread. That’s wrong in my view.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  257. I am (well, really, I’m not) just amazed how on topics that are in everyday conversations, mariO needs us to explain these matters to him as if he just emerges from some cave on occasion to look around and question what he perceives.
    Perhaps he is related to Punxsutawney Phil?

    AD - RtR/OS (6b51ea)

  258. #260 AD, Sometimes I ask you to explain them to me to show you how ridiculous your explanations are.

    You and others will of course never admit that though.

    At least Phil could see his own shadow.

    Oiram (983921)

  259. Mario obscures, obstructs, discombobulates, dissembles. That’s what he does. He is never interested in meeting comments head on. He will always lose, and he knows that. Thus, his dire need to obfuscate.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  260. Come to think of it, that’s the same thing Max Uranuscom does.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  261. Rush lost almost two hours worth of ratings from me because of you guys.

    But then again, Limbaugh’s ratings as well as Steele’s need to apologize to him also gives too much importance to him

    If you think Rush’s ratings give him too much importance, then stop listening.

    Steverino (69d941)

  262. #262 “Lose”? Hitch?

    You mean like how you lost the argument that Limbaugh’s ratings, which translate into dollars, is exactly like The Bibles ratings translating into dollars?

    Oh wait maybe that’s the type of obfuscating you meant.

    Oiram (983921)

  263. Oh wait maybe that’s the type of obfuscating you meant.

    Even an obfuscator admits his obfuscation from time to time.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  264. If you think Rush’s ratings give him too much importance, then stop listening.

    Comment by Steverino — 3/4/2009 @ 12:01 pm

    Too Too Funny

    Everyone but Steverino knows why I find that funny.

    Oiram (983921)

  265. #266

    Wonderful John,

    Good to know then that you admit that you obfuscated when comparing Bible sales to Limbaugh’s sales.

    Oiram (983921)

  266. Mario, your desire for fame and importance is only matched by your total lack thereof. Your desire to “win” is matched only by your inability to be honest.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  267. John, I have no desire for fame, or importance for that matter. And yes I lack in both.

    I also have no desire to “win” do you? Must mean I’m honest 😉

    Still not addressing “Bible Sales” and free markets are you?

    Hmmmm…… it’s an argument that I should lose right?

    Oiram (983921)

  268. Good to know then that you admit that you obfuscated when comparing Bible sales to Limbaugh’s sales.

    Sorry, he never compared Bible sales to Limbaugh’s sales. Nope, never happened.

    It’s time for Mock the Clown…and you’re the guest of honor, Orifice.

    Steverino (69d941)

  269. Hey Hitch, does one person or company get all the justified royalties to the bible?

    The Bible is public domain, there are no royalties. Different publishing houses offer slightly different translations, but the publishing houses pay no royalties.

    Explain the “free market” to me concerning The Bible.

    People are free to buy the Bible any time they wish. How is that concept so hard to understand?

    I’m talking about dollars, that is after all what you meant by your comment.

    Nope, that’s not it at all. John was talking about units sold, not dollars.

    Were you born this stupid, or did you have to take special lessons to reach your current rank of imbecility?

    Steverino (69d941)

  270. Trigger’s in the stable, and he’s getting impatient for you, Mongo.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  271. Comment by Steverino — 3/4/2009 @ 1:00 pm

    Public Education!

    AD - RtR/OS (6b51ea)

  272. #228 JD:

    I am soooooo going to Amarillo.

    Best cheap steak I ever had was at a little hole in the wall in Amarillo. And by cheap, I only mean inexpensive, it was enormous and with all the trimmings, memorable some 30 years later.

    Any idea on how long it takes for your system to adjust to life sans gall

    That’s a good question. My health was complicated by pancreatic involvement: gall stones occluding the common bile duct led to pancreatic damage that eventually became self sustaining recurrent acute pancreatitis culminating in surgical intervention with Whipple procedure.

    So my guts got a pretty good makeover.

    Even so, I think it was probably about 18 months after the choley that my liver adjusted to not having the gallbladder there.

    Anyway, so if it will go through a wood chipper, there’s a pretty good chance that I can eat it without discomfort.

    Sorry about the blank post~don’t know how I managed that.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  273. The best steak I had was off of I-35 around the MN/IA border. I was driving a load of conveyor-loaded spuds (24 tons) out of MN to a plant in MI in an ice storm and saw the sign. After getting on the exit and hanging a right, it took another 5-7 minutes to get to the hole-in-the wall truckstop.

    They had three steaks on their menu, 8 oz, 12 oz, 20 oz. No such thing as naming them, just weighing them. I don’t know how much experience you chaps have with truckstops, but they aren’t known for their ability to properly cook steaks.

    I ordered a 20 oz extra-rare on a bed of white rice and said “no sear marks, those are just burn marks.” It arrived looking good. I cut into it, ate a piece, and immediately ordered the 8 oz.

    When I left, I looked through the window to see my waitress showing the cook my paper placemat where I wrote praising the truckstop for being the first one I found that knew how to cook steaks.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  274. McClintock’s in Pismo Beach.

    SPQR (72771e)

  275. Gene and Gorgetti’s in Chicago, where all the political fixers and mobsters used to hang out. Since the remodeling many years ago, not so much.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  276. Nope, that’s not it at all. John was talking about units sold, not dollars.

    Were you born this stupid, or did you have to take special lessons to reach your current rank of imbecility?

    Comment by Steverino — 3/4/2009 @ 1:00 pm

    Follow the thread Steverino before you name call.

    He was comparing The Bible’s ratings….. let me repeat that for you “Ratings”.

    How stupid do you have to be to not tie that in with dollars?

    Which is what Limbaugh makes.

    I know how John thinks, and I know he was bringing this around to the “Free Market” (most of you do).

    Poor Limbaugh has to have yours and Steele’s lips removed from his arse.

    Oiram (983921)

  277. I would believe it’s the same way all those Bible sales give the Bible too much importance in the daily lives of anyone. Ya know?
    Comment by John Hitchcock — 3/4/2009 @ 11:15 am
    ….
    He was comparing The Bible’s ratings….. let me repeat that for you “Ratings
    Comment by Oiram — 3/4/2009 @ 4:09 pm

    Ratings
    ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    AD - RtR/OS (6b51ea)

  278. Hi all,

    I just briefly read through the rest of the comments after being done with my day job. Good that the evolution/creation subject didn’t erupt into a flame war. I really don’t have much to add at this time, although I am perfectly happy to answer questions.

    We can agree, I think, that the standard of education, including science, is woefully low in this country. And I would dearly like to see Obama and Biden speak on evolutionary theory, without assistance.

    I tried without success to discern what point Mario was making about the Bible’s sales. WTF???

    Regarding Limbaugh, I am amazed that Steele made such needlessly provocative statements. Steele should have said something to the effect that Limbaugh is good at pointing out hypocrisy on the left, although he doesn’t necessarily agree with everything Limbaugh says.

    In a little bit I will adjourn to Stone Brewing Co. for some much-needed quaffage, and I shall toast you all.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R., who implores DRJ to remain at Patterico! (a935b6)

  279. Oiram, your comment really remains incoherent.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  280. I’ve liked the steaks at Daniel’s Broiler in Seattle/Bellevue. Good eating.

    steve miller (c76b20)

  281. Mom Blogs – Blogs for Moms…

    Anonymous (5fa9a5)


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