Patterico's Pontifications

2/14/2009

If We’re Nice to Them, Maybe They’ll Kill Us Last – A Continuing Series

Filed under: Political Correctness — Jack Dunphy @ 1:12 pm



[Guest post by Jack Dunphy]

Over at Pajamas Media, Roger Kimball reports on the latest example of the British cowering in the face of Muslim extremism. To summarize, Dutch politician Geert Wilders had been invited to appear before the House of Lords to screen his short film, Fitna, which examines some of the less peaceful history of the “religion of peace.” Wilders arrived at Heathrow Airport but was promptly whisked back on a plane for Holland. British Home Secretary Jacqui Smith explained the expulsion, saying that Wilders’s presence in Britain “would threaten community harmony and therefore public security in the U.K.”

Quite right. We mustn’t upset the Muslims. In the same post, Kimball reports on the arrest of Muzzammil Hassan, of Orchard Park, New York. Hassan is the founder of Bridges TV, a cable network whose aim is to present Muslims in a positive light. The charge against him? He’s accused of beheading his wife.

–Jack Dunphy

204 Responses to “If We’re Nice to Them, Maybe They’ll Kill Us Last – A Continuing Series”

  1. Hassan is the founder of Bridges TV, a cable network whose aim is to present Muslims in a positive light. The charge against him? He’s accused of beheading his wife.

    The irony, it is thick in this one.

    Techie (6b5d8d)

  2. Where’s CAIR when you need them?

    Dmac (49b16c)

  3. I denounce all this anti-Muslim thinking, including my own.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  4. Fitna should be seen by every person on the planet. It might help to awaken those who somehow excuse the hatred spewed by Muslim fanatics on a daily basis…those who find moral equivalency whenever terrorism strikes. The entire film is stark and riveting, but listen to the 3-1/2 year-old girl at about 4 minutes in…it will make you ill.

    Old Coot (who also wants DRJ back) (7721b8)

  5. Breaking News – Muslims stage violent protest to protest portrayal of Muslims as violent.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  6. From the linked article:

    Orchard Park police arrested Muzzammil Hassan, 44, on Thursday for investigation of second-degree murder, The Buffalo News reported.

    Second degree? Beheading?

    What do they allege he was doing? Swinging an axe wildly, with willful and wanton disregard of unreasonable risk to human life?

    Or what?

    Occasional Reader (f91315)

  7. Second degree? Beheading?

    OR – She provoked him by existing?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  8. daleyrocks — 2/14/2009 @ 1:40 pm:

    OR – She provoked him by existing?

    That would be manslaughter. And the time between provocation (by her existence) and the act would be sufficient to vitiate provocation as basis for the act.

    Occasional Reader (f91315)

  9. Ah, poor Geert Wilders; is he still supporting banning books (e.g., the Koran) and making it illegal to be of Islamic faith?

    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32732_Dutch_MP_Barred_from_Entering_Britain

    Timothy Watson (cbf394)

  10. A commenter on another thread said the local and Buffalo papers and tv hadn’t touched the story.
    Even reporters and editors would have to stretch to avoid a nice, colorful beheading.
    Anybody know if it’s made the local news?

    Richard Aubrey (6d05b1)

  11. Hassan is the founder of Bridges TV, a cable network whose aim is to present Muslims in a positive light. The charge against him? He’s accused of beheading his wife.

    Hey, it was a clean beheading, and she hardly suffered at all. That’s about as positive as a story gets, right?

    Steverino (69d941)

  12. OR – I’m not a lawyer, I only play one on the internet.

    I think what this country needs is to follow the U.K.’s lead and create some good Sharia Courts so that people such as Mr. Hassan are not potentially victimized by Western standards of morality and justice. After all, who are we to say that our way of living is the correct one. We can’t even pass a law making english the national language for Pete’s sake.

    Moral relativism, live it, love it, it’s what’s for dinner. Served by your new liberal overlords.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  13. The Sahih Bukhari

    Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28:
    Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:
    The Prophet said: “I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful.” It was asked, “Do they disbelieve in Allah?” (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, “They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, ‘I have never received any good from you.”

    The not so noble Qur’an

    047.004
    YUSUFALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

    Maybe this is what qualifies this as “second degree murder”?
    Three cheers for Sharia!

    ML (14488c)

  14. Richard – It’s in the Buffalo News.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  15. I am sure CAIR will be giving us the most objective fair and balanced reporting on this topic.

    England, get your heads out of your butts. Even the French have figured it out, it just took several years of repeatedly having their cars torched. Protein Wisdom also has this example of British government stupidity. Not that child protective services have ever been accused of being brain surgeons, but this is especially eggregious.

    Joe (17aeff)

  16. Comment by Timothy Watson — 2/14/2009 @ 1:48 pm
    Nice out-of-context attack.

    If you looked, you would see that Wilders compares the Koran to Mein Kampf,
    and how they both advocate violence against non-believers.
    And, since M-K is banned in Holland, Wilders insists in the name of fairness, that the Koran be banned also.

    But then, some are so open-minded their brains have fallen out.

    AD - RtR/OS (b72c61)

  17. Gates of Vienna provides the transcript of the Q&A in the House of Lords re the refusal of entry to Wilders. It’s hard to believe Britain was at one time indeed Great. That they have capitulated and caved in to fear (coincidentally on the 20th anniversary of the fatwah put out on Salman Rushdie), evidences this is not the Great Britain the world once knew.

    Lord Pearson of Rannoch: I only have one question, because I know that we do not want to spend long on this. Does the noble Lord think that this situation would have occurred if Mr Wilders had said, “Ban the Bible”? If it would not have occurred, why not? Surely, the violence and the disturbance that may arise from showing this film in this country is not caused by the film, which merely attempts to show how the violent Islamist uses the Koran to perpetrate his terrible acts, but by the jihadist, the violent Islamist. In doing what the Government have done, surely they are therefore guilty of appeasement.

    Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I certainly do not think that we are guilty of appeasement in any way whatever… We take no sides on this. We treat people whom we believe are a threat to the security and safety of this nation in exactly the same way, from whatever cloth they come; that is extremely important.

    Dana (137151)

  18. Radical Muslim: Decapitates his wife at any time.
    Moderate Muslim: Decapitates his wife when she files for divorce.

    Perfect Sense (0922fa)

  19. We treat people whom we believe are a threat to the security and safety of this nation in exactly the same way, from whatever cloth they come; that is extremely important.

    Translation – we only treat Muslims differently; OTOH, the Christians, Jews, Buddhists and Hindus will be immediately prosecuted for merely expressing an opinion.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  20. What is really frightening is how normal they looked.

    Patricia (89cb84)

  21. Moral relativism, indeed.

    If you’re “swarthy” and Muslim and standing in a Gaza mosque and proclaiming that Islam demands violence against non-believers, oppression of women, etc., conservatives insist you deserve to be blown to bits, whether or not there happen to be innocents around you.

    If you’re a British Muslim doing the same, you need to be deported, at a minimum, conservatives say.

    If you’re white and Christian and proclaiming that Islam demands violence against non-believers, oppression of women, etc., conservatives want to send a limousine to deliver you to the red carpet of a film festival.

    Wilders is a key ally for the bin Ladenists and among the most potent enemies of the moderate Muslim majority who are on the front lines in the war against radical Islam.

    Wilders is sending the same message as bin Laden: Islam demands violence and, more important, Christianity is in a war versus Islam itself, rather than in a war against Islamic terrorists. Bin Laden couldn’t ask for better propaganda than Wilder’s message.

    And as others have pointed out here: it’s more than a little rich for Wilder to demand free speech when he’s on a campaign to ban books.

    Hax Vobiscum (edacf7)

  22. If you’re “swarthy” and Muslim and standing in a Gaza mosque and proclaiming that Islam demands violence against non-believers, oppression of women, etc., conservatives insist you deserve to be blown to bits, whether or not there happen to be innocents around you.

    That’s the kind of false caricature of conservatives’ position that gives liberals a little frisson of self-righteousness. Never mind that no credible conservative actually believes that.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  23. Mrs. Hassan finds herself in pieces as another adherent to the Religion of Peace expresses his spirituality.

    If it weren’t for all those Christian suicide bombers running amok, you would think people would criticize muslims openly on occasion.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  24. “And as others have pointed out here: it’s more than a little rich for Wilder to demand free speech when he’s on a campaign to ban books.”

    Hax – Some intellectually dishonest people do characterize it that way. It’s not surprising that you join in their chorus.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  25. Can Hax be put on a one-strawman-a-week quota?

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  26. “Wilders is a key ally for the bin Ladenists”

    Their plan isn’t working. Each time the bin Ladenists assasinate a Dutch film maker they create more Geert Wilders.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  27. The convergence of the “useful idiots” of the left throughout the Western World and (in those same people’s eyes) the supposedly sympathetic, sad, touching, endearing underdogs of the Islamic world — of the Third World — make for an interesting combination.

    One group is in the forefront of normalizing, for example, gay marriage, the other group is wrapped up in a history of polygamous marriages (the background of their beloved Mohammed).

    One group espouses the notion of tolerance (or actually that should be “tolerance”) and anything-goes liberalism, the other group espouses more of a Stalin-Mussolini-Hussein-Mao approach to tolerance and ban-the-infidel fundamentalism.

    Two groups that truly deserve, and are ripe for, one another—and the guy sentenced below is sort of a blend of the two worlds, symbolizing the lunacy of limousine liberalism on one hand, and the chaotic, self-destructive nature of the Third World on the other.


    Los Angeles Times, 2-14-09:

    A polygamist who tortured, starved, imprisoned and beat his wives and children for decades was sentenced to seven life terms in prison Friday by a judge who said the man’s “reign of terror” warranted the harshest punishment available.

    Mansa Musa Muhummed, 55, spoke before sentencing and denied ever mistreating his three wives and 19 children.

    “I never tortured anyone,” he told Riverside County Superior Court Judge F. Paul Dickerson III. “I don’t know where that came from.”

    The judge dismissed his comments. “Mr. Muhummed showed no remorse and accepted no responsibility for his twisted behavior, and the court is sending the strongest message possible,” he said.

    Originally from Virginia, Muhummed came to California, converted to Islam and moved his family from place to place, living in houses, small apartments and vans.

    Family members testified that he would beat them savagely with boat oars, hoses and electrical cords for any perceived infraction. Grounds for beatings included sneaking food, failing to recite a passage from the Koran accurately and not asking to use the bathroom. He also organized fights between his boys.

    Muhummed tightly rationed food for everyone but himself. He carefully locked up the cabinets and chained the refrigerator. His children said he “ate like a king” while they went hungry. In fact, they said, they went up to seven days without food. They had to beg for it or pick a lock and steal it. If caught, they were beaten or made to stand all night in a corner. Buckets in bedrooms usually served as their toilets, they said.

    Muhummed made money selling his food stamps and collecting Social Security on himself and his children, family members said.

    Mark (411533)

  28. Yep. We have all heard how violent and dangerous those Christian fundamentalists are, repeatedly. No different from Muslim extremists. You bet. Moral equivalence is the order of the day.

    Getting more serious, here, I certainly hope that Hax has a long and honored history of speaking out against the threats made upon Salman Rushdie, Theo van Gogh (whoops, too late: a Muslim nutball killed him), Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and similar folk. Oh, and the attempts made to keep these people from expressing their opinions. Sometimes by taking their lives.

    You would think that “liberals” and “progressives” would understand that the key to dealing with “hate speech” is more speech, not less. Instead, these folks seem to act like the caricatures of Republicans and conservatives that they claim to oppose.

    It call comes down to

    Republicans = Bad

    Democrats = Good

    And again, the Left loves to call the Right “simple minded”!

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  29. Patterico – That is what Hax does. He has laid waste to thousands of strawmen in the last couple weeks.

    JD (f7890a)

  30. Maybe it is a fiber thing, JD.

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  31. Eric – I hope he has a long history of speaking out against speach codes on college campuses as well, against the disruption of conservative speakers and organizations, because otherwise, that would be sort of you know, hypocritical.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  32. Hack, #21, its flaming dishonesty like that that is earning you a reputation as a clown.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  33. JD – I don’t think he has a straw man left to stand on.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  34. Hopefully I’ll be blessed with a circumstance that allows me to choose to live free or die… at which point I plan to go down swinging.

    SteveG (a87dae)

  35. Why is it that so many Leftists continually engage in arguments with charicatures of conservatives, and arguments that people have not proffered? I lknow it must be easier for them, as opposed to discussing things with actual people, and actual thoughts, but it is so fundamentally dishonest.

    JD (f7890a)

  36. JD, they require such to feel morally superior in the absence of actual compelling argument.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  37. , its flaming dishonesty like that that is earning you a reputation as a clown.

    No, that’s not quite right – assclown is more like it.

    I certainly hope that Hax has a long and honored history of speaking out against the threats made upon Salman Rushdie

    No doubt he’ll be first in line to protest at his local mosque when they sanction another honor killing. Step to it, Hackey.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  38. You don’t typically see stories like this getting widespread coverage on the lefty blogs, either the Wilders portion or the head lopping portion. The cognitive dissonance is too great for a lot of the, but teh Haxxor bring teh Suxxor and does not fail to disappoint.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  39. If you’re white and Christian and proclaiming that Islam demands violence against non-believers, oppression of women, etc., conservatives want to send a limousine to deliver you to the red carpet of a film festival.

    Besides waiting and looking for my weekly Zionist check, no conservatives other than myself has ever paid for the limo, let along deliver us to a read carpet affair.

    The Arroyo Chop House maybe but I don’t recall red carpet.

    ML (14488c)

  40. Swinging an axe wildly, with willful and wanton disregard of unreasonable risk to human life?

    That is referred to as Muslimslaughter.

    Hax is a clownish example of the left’s inability to discern the flaws in moral equivalence. Note his example

    If you’re “swarthy” and Muslim and standing in a Gaza mosque and proclaiming that Islam demands violence against non-believers, oppression of women, etc., conservatives insist you deserve to be blown to bits, whether or not there happen to be innocents around you.

    If your proclamation is actually the firing of mortar shells into Israel, that is another matter that Hax doesn’t consider.

    From a source that he/she/it hasn’t quoted:

    Michael Totten is in Israel this week.

    “Do you have automatic counterbatteries for the rocket and mortar attacks?” said Mario Loyola from National Review magazine.

    “No, no,” Major Deutsch said. “Because if they fire a mortar from inside a school, we don’t want to automatically shoot back.”

    Hax ? Hax ? Hax ?

    Poor pitiful pimp.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  41. A single-cell organism displays more sense and intelligence than most of our trolls, and Hax in particular.
    I would call him a POS, but that would be an insult to shit!

    AD - RtR/OS (fd60fc)

  42. The record of violent Islamic extremism around the world is impossible to ignore, unless you deliberately close your eyes. Those who draw a moral equivalent with conservative Christians disclose their own inability to understand basic facts.

    Bradley J. Fikes, C. O.R., who wants DRJ back! (0ea407)

  43. Comment by Hax Vobiscum — 2/14/2009 @ 3:45 pm

    I believe it is far easier to ignorantly participate in the normalization of evil by attacking the usual suspects (Christians and/or Conservatives) and painting them with the broad brush rather than make a clear, non-wavering stand against it. The left are squishes.

    Dana (137151)

  44. Back onto the topic of the headline….
    How about if we don’t be nice to them, and kill them first?
    A lot less of us will die that way.
    Just asking.

    AD - RtR/OS (fd60fc)

  45. And here we go,

    “He was worried about the station’s future,” said Dr. Khalid Qazi, a friend of the couple and president of the Muslim Public Affairs Council of Western New York, who last spoke to the Hassans a week ago…

    “Domestic violence is despicable, and Islam condones it in no way whatever,” he said.

    “Murders are being committed in the US every day by people of all faiths.”

    Dana (137151)

  46. Fair enough. I didn’t mean to suggest that all conservatives support assasinating Muslims radicals in Gaza, a corner stone of Israel’s policy.
    As for the fact that radical Muslim assasinations begetting more Wilders, I would note that that is exactly the feedback loop an unpopular extremist like bin laden needs to win mainstream credibility at the margins.
    Wilder needn’t be banned anywhere, though he should be identified as a hypocrite and a very useful proponent of the extremist view of islam.

    hax vobiscum (08ab06)

  47. It’s still appeasement, but you have to look at it like this: Christians, Buddhists, and Hindus are a lot less likely to start killing people when you piss them off. Jews, at least in the last 64 years, will hunt people down and kill them. Or start a campaign of disproportionate retaliation. Everyone else will hit back, but it’s the hard-core Muslims who are most likely to resort to serious violence if they get offended..

    Or in other words, Droids don’t rip people’s arms off when they lose.

    Michael Llaneza (ff321b)

  48. Comment by Dana — 2/14/2009 @ 7:47 pm
    Well, the question for Dr. Qazi is:
    Was Hassan too devout, or not devout enough?
    If not devout enough, what is it in Islam that leads so many to fall by the wayside with violent outbursts that are, ostensibly, counter to the teachings of the Faith?
    Or, is Islam truly a violent path to salvation that is in irreconcilable conflict with the traditions of the West?

    AD - RtR/OS (fd60fc)

  49. ““Domestic violence is despicable, and Islam condones it in no way whatever,” he said.”

    Islam is the religion of peace.

    Mr. Hassan is such a nice man, everyone is baffled as to how this could occur.

    What you read about in the press, so-called “honor killings” are based on culture, not religion. They just happen to take place a lot in cultures where Islam is the dominant religion. Sheer coincidence, I assure you because Islam respects women and is a peaceful religion.

    Ask Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  50. Surely you realize that had Israel not retaliated against Hamas for firing rockets into Israel poor Mr. Hassan would not have had to behead his wife. I denounce all of you.

    Seriously, attorneys, how can beheading not be first degree murder? Section 125.27 of the NY penal code is here.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  51. “As for the fact that radical Muslim assasinations begetting more Wilders”

    Hax – That was not a serious argument. That was just to mock the left’s argument that killing terrorist’s in Iraq only created more terrorists. You should have somebody check your irony meter.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  52. Yes, we can ask Ms. Ali.
    Unfortunately, Aasiya Z. Hassan won’t be able to fill us in with her observations.

    AD - RtR/OS (fd60fc)

  53. Have we got the same Hax? Small h and v. Usually uses capitals.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  54. Stu707….
    It would seem that the DA would have to prove this, as it doesn’t seem that any other portion of the statute would be relevant:

    “…(x) the defendant acted in an especially cruel and wanton manner
    pursuant to a course of conduct intended to inflict and inflicting
    torture upon the victim prior to the victim’s death. As used in this
    subparagraph, “torture” means the intentional and depraved infliction of
    extreme physical pain; “depraved” means the defendant relished the
    infliction of extreme physical pain upon the victim evidencing
    debasement or perversion or that the defendant evidenced a sense of
    pleasure in the infliction of extreme physical pain…”

    Either they can’t prove this, or don’t wish to, so they have filed a lessor charge of 2nd-degree, and they won’t have to worry about the violent outbursts decrying any death penalty for this model citizen and stalwart of the Religion of Peace.

    AD - RtR/OS (fd60fc)

  55. Yes, Hax, that’s exactly what bin Laden wants more of — people who say we should stand against those who call for slowly strangling gays to death with construction cranes, who call for women who dare expose their ankles to be stoned. Bin Laden wants more people who question the message of the “religion of peace”.

    If you’d actually study the history of Islam, of dhimmitude, and the trajectory of totalitarian movements, you’d realize what bin Laden really wants is more people who are too afraid to speak out. More people who go along with the idea that it violates someone’s human rights when their religion is ridiculed. They want silent, cooperative servants.

    I don’t agree with Wilders in re banning the Koran, but in the context of European laws that ban Main Kampf, his suggestion is not out of line. Remember, Europe is not the US. France and Germany (for example) both have laws on the books regulating religious organizations that would fail a 1st Amendment challenge almost immediately.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  56. The real question is why there are Muslims, either in the US or in the Netherlands. Islam is totally foreign to both the US and Holland, its adherents almost always immigrants, children of immigrants, or (very occasionally) a native women who converts when marrying one of these people.

    The answer if obvious, stop Muslim immigration — and as most are recent immigrants with ties back to the ‘old country’ (‘British’ Pakistanis send their children back home to marry someone from the village) offer incentives for those in the West to leave.

    horace (403d7a)

  57. Either they can’t prove this, or don’t wish to, so they have filed a lessor charge of 2nd-degree, and they won’t have to worry about the violent outbursts decrying any death penalty for this model citizen and stalwart of the Religion of Peace.

    Thanks, AD.

    Even though NY has the death penalty I doubt they have ever imposed it since it was re-instituted.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  58. Don’t go stealing sheep in Saudia Arabia, the birthplace of Islam. Beating your wife to death, not as bad:

    “We have an entrenched judicial system that is based on Divine Law and not personal whims. This is the reason why I could not understand two recent court verdicts handed out on the same day.

    In the first ruling, two thieves who stole two rams were sentenced to three years imprisonment and 1,000 lashes each.

    The second ruling of two years imprisonment and 200 whiplashes was for a husband who beat his wife until she swallowed her tongue and died.

    I could not find any explanation for the great difference in the two rulings although they were reached under the same law. Are the two rams more valuable than the woman or is the life of a human being cheaper than that of livestock?

    I am not evaluating the judicial system or delving into the parameters of the rulings. I’m just trying to understand how some judges think and issue their verdicts? It might be true that the woman was killed unintentionally and the rams were stolen with intent, but this will not answer the questions that arise from the two verdicts.

    I doubt very much the Ministry of Justice will include the two verdicts in its records because they contradict the picture that the ministry is trying to draw that court verdicts are based on principles of fairness and not the personal views of judges.”

    Arab News 1/19/09

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  59. Wilder needn’t be banned anywhere, though he should be identified as a hypocrite and a very useful proponent of the extremist view of islam.

    Comment by hax vobiscum

    Whereas, you are a poor sad pimp of a fellow who can’t tell a crime from a false analogy.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  60. daley, one has to wonder exactly how long and forceful of a beating does it take to cause someone to swallow their tongue? And as to what is valued more, livestock or women, I think we all know the answer. Except for the squishes on the left of course who are no longer able to recognize evil.

    Dana (137151)

  61. Daley #57

    We just don’t have the cultural sensitivity to appreciate the subtleties of Islamic law as practiced in Saudi Arabia. For example, do you recall the 2007 case where the victim of a gang rape was sentenced to 200 lashes?

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  62. Judging all of Islam by the acts of its extremists is no better than judging Christianity by the Inquisition or the Holocaust or, even, those Christians who continue to deny the Holocaust actually took place as such.

    The bin Ladenists and fellow Islamic terrorists have nothing to do with the real Islam, and almost every mainstream Muslim cleric scholar will tell you that. Even Bernard Lewis, a right-wing Christian who has studied the Koran and other Islamic texts in the original classical Arabic and advised presidents Reagan, Bush and Clinton, will tell you that bin Laden and his ilk are fake religous gangsters, not people who are faithfully out the Korans instructions.

    Anyone who has read the history of the Taliban, for example, will recognize immediately that they used religion only as the most expedient pretext to rape, pillage and grab power.
    The vast majority of Muslims are people of peace and they know better than anyone that the radical terrorists have nothing to do with the true Islam. The terrorists only want power and have no moral limits for what they will do to get and keep it.

    Moderate Muslims are on the front line against terrorism. The vast majority of terror victims are Muslims, not Jews or Hindus, or Christians or atheists.

    It is especially galling to moderate Muslims to hear right-wing Christians insist that the bin Ladenist bastardization of Islam accurately reflects the religion.

    As for straw men, the biggest, which comes up over and over again, is that if one opposes attacks on Islam at large, one must therefore support Muslim terrorists.

    I have no truck with any kind of terrorism anywhere, anytime. I oppose the radicals in Gaza just as much as I oppose the radicals running the Jewish colonies in the West Bank or the Israeli radicals calling for the extermination of Arabs in Palestine.

    I support free speech everywhere, whether it’s on campus or in the press covering Iraq. I support the preference for diplomacy and non-violence, with military action only as a last resort, in all situations, be it ending Israel’s occupation or stopping Palestinian terror attacks.

    I am morally consistent, not relativist. The relativists are the one who insist on operating under two sets of rules. They are the true advocates of pacifism, but only as the only permissible option for their military opponents.

    “If we’re nice to them, maybe they will kill us last.”

    This is exactly the sarcastic appeal radical Muslims constantly make to moderates. They point to blogs like this and people like Wilder and ask moderate Muslims why they want to try a peaceful approach with people that openly call for banning their religion and expelling them from their homes.

    The kind of comments found on this blog and the kind of people like Wilder make it much easier for radicals to convert moderates and much more difficult for moderates to argue in favor of maintaining a diplomatic, non-violent approach to conflicts.

    The war against radical Islam can only be won by moderate Muslims, not by Christians or Hindus or Jews or atheists. Anyone who undermines the legitimacy and power of moderate Muslims is only increasing the power and prestige of the radical terrorists.

    Hax Vobiscum (edacf7)

  63. It is especially galling to moderate Muslims to hear right-wing Christians insist that the bin Ladenist bastardization of Islam accurately reflects the religion.

    It is equally galling for those moderate muslims to keep silent about the acts of those few extremists.

    When someone denies that the holocaust happened, christians loudly denounce them as kooks, anti-semites, and POS in general.

    You hear no words of condemnation from the “moderate” muslims.

    In fact, we are told that we must understand why they want to kill us, and we must find what we can do to convince them to not try and kill us. Sorry, but I find that silly. I don’t need to know WHY they want to. Knowing that they want to is enough.

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  64. “You hear no words of condemnation…”

    Very interesting use of the second person there, Scott.

    You don’t hear words of condemnation because the news sources you rely on aren’t reporting them.

    I and most of the world are very well aware that the vast majority of Muslims unequivocally condemn terrorism.

    Moderate Muslims constantly denounce acts of terror. More important, moderate Muslims are most often the victims of such terrorism and not only do they denounce it, they fight against it, tooth and nail.

    The governments of Indonesia, Eqypt and India, home to the world’s three largest Muslim populations, actively and at times, visciously, suppress Muslim terrorism. In the case of Indonesia and Egypt, the governments are led by moderate Muslims who tolerate no Islamic radicalism whatsoever. In Eqypt’s case, the radical Muslim Brotherhood — the mother of the entire movement — is outlawed.

    In addition to listening to the Wilders of the world tell them that Islam is like Nazism, moderate Muslims also have to hear the wildly ignorant claim that they don’t condemn terrorism.

    Hax Vobiscum (edacf7)

  65. “You don’t hear words of condemnation because the news sources you rely on aren’t reporting them.”

    Hax – Which ones are reporting on it? Apparently it’s a little tough to do at the moment in Western Europe.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  66. How are you and the world aware of this so-called moderation? Do you have secret news services?

    You make statements untroubled by facts. Why should anyone take you at your word?

    Please provide facts (not opinions, not merely statements) that show that your beliefs are shared widely by others, and please show facts that what you believe is also believed by these so-called moderates?

    This guy was proffered as a moderate, and he beheaded his wife. What’s a radical then?

    I don’t understand how weak-livered liberals can imagine that what they think and how they feel in a sophisticated Western world is matched by people living in unimaginably different circumstances. “I think religion is pretty and uplifting” is a belief, but it doesn’t mean that others hold to the same value of that belief. To some, their religion is a thing to live and for. Not their political system. Not their way of life. Their religion.

    Please feel free to trot out what happened in the 14th-16th centuries as a rejoinder. I can see how history of hundreds of years ago explains why we should treat this current behavior as nothing to be alarmed about.

    Just lay down and let it strike you in the neck. You have nothing to worry about until that point.

    steve miller (6cc348)

  67. The vast majority of Muslims, who are moderate, reject violence. Is that what you’re saying, Hacks?

    Why do you suppose the Brits figured a visit from Wilders constituted a security threat? Here’s a hint.

    Pablo (99243e)

  68. I am morally consistent, not relativist.

    Baloney.

    You’re just too stupid and dishonest to know the difference between black and white.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  69. To some, their religion is a thing to live and for. Not their political system. Not their way of life. Their religion.

    To orthodox Muslims, it’s all one and the same. Islam should be a political system, and a complete way of life.

    Pablo (99243e)

  70. Do you have secret news services?

    Hack’s news is obviously delivered by unicorns.

    Old Coot (who also wants DRJ back) (7721b8)

  71. #70 Pablo:

    Islam should be a political system,

    Islam is not a religion as we generally understand in the West.

    It is a totalitarian ideology based on a “cult of personality” as National Socialism was in the 1930’s, that unfortunately hasn’t suffered the crushing opposition to it that the Nazi’s required to reform. That it has outlived its progenitor is most unfortunate, but that doesn’t make it worthy of any intellectual regard.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  72. That it has outlived its progenitor is most unfortunate, but that doesn’t make it worthy of any intellectual regard.

    EW1(SG), I wrote what you quoted from the POV of a strict adherent to Islam. I don’t endorse the view, just acknowledge that it exists. But you’re right. For a strict Muslim, religion is not a part of their life, it is their life and everything in it. It is submission.

    Pablo (99243e)

  73. #73 Pablo:

    I don’t endorse the view

    Pablo, I am under no misapprehension about whether you endorse that view…

    I am pretty sure that Zydeco is haram, so I’d trust you to cover me anytime. 😉

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  74. Source: Associated Press
    updated 12:24 p.m. CT, Tues., May. 22, 2007

    WASHINGTON – One in four younger U.S. Muslims say suicide bombings to defend their religion are acceptable at least in some circumstances, though most Muslim Americans overwhelmingly reject the tactic and are critical of Islamic extremism and al-Qaida, a poll says……………….

    Even so, U.S. Muslims are far less accepting of suicide attacks than Muslims in many other nations. In surveys Pew conducted last year, support in some Muslim countries exceeded 50 percent, while it was considered justifiable by about one in four Muslims in Britain and Spain, and one in three in France.

    “We have crazies just like other faiths have them,” said Eide Alawan, who directs interfaith outreach at the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn, Mich., one of the nation’s largest mosques. He said killing innocent people contradicts Islam.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  75. You don’t hear words of condemnation because the news sources you rely on aren’t reporting them.

    Hacks is apparently receiving a form of alternative news from his tinfoil hat – quel surprise.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  76. Joe, most commenters here can type in Protein Wisdom’s URL if they want to. Most commenters at Protein Wisdom can type in Patterico’s URL if they want to as well. It’s nice of you to serve as a blog pimp on both sites though.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  77. Thanks for that, daleyrocks.

    Now let’s see Hax find the morally equivalent poll stating that one in four U.S. Christians approve of suicide bombings to defend their religion.

    Bradley J. Fikes, C. O.R., who wants DRJ back! (0ea407)

  78. Even Bernard Lewis, a right-wing Christian who has studied the Koran and other Islamic texts in the original classical Arabic and advised presidents Reagan, Bush and Clinton, will tell you that bin Laden and his ilk are fake religous gangsters, not people who are faithfully out the Korans instructions.

    This person is such an ignorant twerp he doesn’t even know what religion Bernard Lewis follows and there is no evidence that he is “conservative” since that is an economic philosophy. This person thinks conservative is an epithet.

    Have you read any of Lewis’ books ? I think not.

    In the Pantheon of experts, you are right up there with Maxine Waters.

    The political left, as exemplified by this twerp, has decided to ally itself with radical Islam for reasons that are a mystery. The only explanation is the desire to ally oneself with the enemies of civilization. Of course, that alliance is operative only as long as the left winger can keep his allies at a distance and enjoy the benefits of a liberal democracy.

    The same sort of thing used to occur with the Soviet Union. Then, every once in a while, the useful idiot, like Kim Philby, was forced to actually live in his ideal society. He then drank himself to death.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  79. Happy Valentine’s Day – Nothing to see here.

    February 14, 2009
    New York: Afghan consulate official beat his wife for 15 straight hours
    A Valentine’s Day pearl of wisdom from one of the World’s Great Religions and one of the Three Great Abrahamic Faiths: “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them.” — Qur’an 4:34

    Yet another Feel the Valentine’s Love Update: “Afghan diplomat Mohammed Fagirad charged in all-day wife beating,” by Nicole Bode for the New York Daily News, February 14 (thanks to Pamela):

    An Afghan diplomat was charged Friday with beating his wife “like a dog” for more than 15 hours in their Queens home, prosecutors said.
    Mohammed Fagirad, 30, a vice consul at the Afghanistan Consulate, brutalized his wife inside their Flushing home from about 8:30 a.m. Wednesday until nearly midnight, Queens District Attorney Richard Brown said.

    During the attack, Fagirad bit, slapped, choked and beat the 22-year-old woman with a belt, pushed her down a flight of stairs and sat on her chest, prosecutors said.

    At one point, prosecutors said, Fagirad threw his wife up against a wall, held her there by the neck and then let her drop to the floor, where he beat her with a belt.

    Fagirad told police his “wife was a dog and he was going to treat her like a dog,” prosecutors said.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  80. ______________________________________

    http://www.historynet.com:

    The long shadow of Muhammad stretches across centuries of strife to the present. Today an estimated 1.4 billion Muslims around the globe follow his teachings — the word of God as revealed to Muhammad and set down in the Koran — making Islam the world’s second-largest religion behind Christianity. But despite Muhammad’s remarkable accomplishments, there is no modern account of his life that examines his role as Islam’s first great general and the leader of a successful insurgency.

    The idea of Muhammad as a military man will be new to many. Yet he was a truly great general. In the space of a single decade he fought eight major battles, led eighteen raids, and planned another thirty-eight military operations where others were in command but operating under his orders and strategic direction….The inventor of insurgency warfare and history’s first successful practitioner, Muhammad had no military training before he commanded an army in the field.

    Muhammad’s intelligence service eventually rivaled that of Byzantium and Persia, especially when it came to political information. He reportedly spent hours devising tactical and political stratagems, and once remarked that “all war is cunning,” reminding modern analysts of Sun Tzu’s dictum, “all war is deception.” In his thinking and application of force Muhammad was a combination of Karl von Clause­witz and Niccolo Machiavelli, for he always employed force in the service of political goals.

    An astute grand strategist, he used non­mili­tary methods (alliance building, politi­cal assassination, bribery, religious appeals, mercy, and calculated butchery) to strengthen his long-term position, sometimes even at the expense of short-term military considerations.

    …Muhammad was first and foremost a revolutionary, a fiery religious guerrilla leader who created and led the first genuine national insurgency in antiquity that is comprehensible in modern terms, a fact not lost on the jihadis of the present day, who often cite the Koran and Muhammad’s use of violence as justification for their own insurgencies.


    ______________________________________

    Mark (411533)

  81. Oh, daleyrocks…

    Afghanistan – hopeless.
    Iraq – maybe.

    Patricia (89cb84)

  82. Patricia – Don’t shoot the messenger.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  83. “We have crazies just like other faiths have them,” said Eide Alawan, who directs interfaith outreach at the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn, Mich., one of the nation’s largest mosques. He said killing innocent people contradicts Islam.

    The sticking point is in the definition of “innocent”.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  84. The sticking point is in the definition of “innocent”.

    Rob – I think the definition excludes people who disagree with them.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  85. Obviously the Afghan official was just following the rules…maybe things got out of hand but no matter, he had the greenlight to beat his wife into submission. His only problem was he didn’t remember to avoid the face or the sensitive areas, which might create a mark spoiling her beauty or might lead to broken bones, which would make people know that she was harshly beaten. Meh. Who can blame him. Surely she deserved this, no?

    From noted Egyptian cleric Galal Al-Khatib,

    “It’s enough if he refrains from smiling and saying nice things to her, and instead, he gives her the cold shoulder, but he has the right to have sex with her, even during banishment.”

    If those two steps do not work to make your wife “obedient,” then “… beat them,” Khatib said. He has been quoted by MEMRI,

    “Okay, he’s tried admonishing, he’s tried banishment – but nothing. Her emotions are numb, and she says: Good riddance. So what is the next measure? ‘…and beat them.’ Beating.”

    According to Khatib, The Prophet Muhammad advised that beatings should be light, and husbands should avoid the face or the sensitive areas, which might create a mark spoiling her beauty or might lead to broken bones, which would make people know that she was harshly beaten.

    Khatib exemplified light beating like

    “light slap on her shoulder, or maybe a not-so-light pinch, or a kind of gentle shove.”

    He advised the husbands that by beating make wives to feel that

    “With you, I have reached a stage which is only appropriate for inhumane people – the stage of beating.”

    “By beating his wife, the husband is saying: You’ve committed a grave sin that merits beatings,”

    It is notable that wife beating is acceptable in Islam. According to the Noble Verse 4:34.

    Dana (137151)

  86. Comment by Mike K — 2/15/2009 @ 9:32 am

    Good chuckle there…Hax and Maxine deserve each other.
    Hax, like most current “Progressives”, have an abominable lack of knowledge about their own history, and the history of the World. They have swallowed the pablum passing for education in the current system, and have no idea how ill-educated they actually are.
    “We don’t know what we don’t know”

    AD - RtR/OS (a4db8f)

  87. Comment by Dana — 2/15/2009 @ 10:20 am
    I guess they never taught him, in diplomat’s school, the Rule of Thumb!

    AD - RtR/OS (a4db8f)

  88. Wasn’t there a recent poll in Britain saying that something like 40 percent of Muslims prefer to be culturally segregated from mainstream Britain, with policies like shari’a law and all those other wonderful policies?

    Hey, I see Hax isn’t responding to 66–and isn’t providing any support for his assertion about the supposedly widespread condemnation within Islam of terrorist acts committed in the name of that religion. How interesting. I’m ever so surprised.

    Alan (551a6d)

  89. This guy was proffered as a moderate, and he beheaded his wife. What’s a radical then?

    This would contradict what we hear as the justifications for the violence – extreme poverty, unemployment, lack of social standing in countries emigrated to, lack of education, even Islamaphobia.

    This was an educated man, living in New York, very mainstream in his community, leading businessman, had money, respect, and was not on the fringes of society.

    So if one eliminates all of the traditional excuses (see above) treaditionally used to justify violence within the Islamic community, what common element is one left with?

    Dana (137151)

  90. Dana – It’s truly a mystery, isn’t it?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  91. #91 Comment by Dana — 2/15/2009 @ 11:27 am

    Dana, clearly the problem is that Hassan had become too assimilated. Yes! He’s drunk too deeply of the poisonous waters of Western Patriarchy, so much so that now he vomits out the violence inherent in the system.

    The fact that he turned to his original culture’s time-honored, traditional method of religious murder is completely coincidental. Hassan murdered his wife because, at the core, he’s become too American.

    /do I really need to? Yes. Sarcasm!

    Pious Agnostic (b2c3ab)

  92. Actually, the real issue here is much simpler:

    Any culture or group that is opposed to Western Civilization must be treated much more kindly and with more understanding than that selfsame Western Civilization.

    I guess that includes wife-beating.

    But the response follows this pattern:

    1. Claims against the other group or culture are xenophobic Zionist lies (or the equivalent).

    2. The actions of the United States is little different (or commonly, far worse) from that other group…historically or currently.

    3. Extremist statements by the other group or culture are extremely rare, and besides, fundamentalist Christians are worse.

    4. The violence committed by that other group of culture is due to US-led (or Western) imperialism or poor treatment. The people in those cultures are never, ever responsible for their own actions.

    Am I leaving anything out?

    Eric Blair (ec334b)

  93. The Pew pool is a good starting place for evidence that only a tiny minority of Muslims support terrorism.

    http://pewglobal.org/reports/pdf/248topline.pdf

    On the key question of whether violence against civilians is justified, the survey found that in Indonesia, only 2 percent said it was often justified. In Turkey, it was 3 percent, Morocco 8 percent and Pakistan, 12 percent.

    The biggest Arab Muslim country, Egypt, wasn’t included in the survey. Nor were India (the third-biggest Muslim population), Iran or Iraq.

    I generally trust Pew surveys, as the organization is not generally involved in political advocacy. However, there is at least one obvious attempt to mislead in this particular report.

    If you look at the report summary on the top page, the results on the violence against civilians combines the sometimes/often questions into a single result, while leaving the rarely and never as separate categories. This is classic manipulation of statistics. To get the real numbers you need to download the questionnaire PDF.

    It’s also important to put the PEW figures in context and this is where the survey also falls down. Shockingly, it doesn’t even bother to ask the civilian violence question in the U.S. or Canada or Britain. So we don’t know how the Muslim country response compare. Other surveys have shown that, in general, non-Muslim countries are more supportive of violence against civilians than are Muslim countries, but the surveys do not necessarily compare head to head with the Pew results.

    Beyond that, here is a link to scores of Muslim religious and academic leaders condemning terrorism:

    http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

    The evidence is clear: only a tiny minority of Muslims support terrorism.

    On the other side, where is the evidence that moderate Muslims support terrorism? Where are the comments from mainstream clerics or scholars or political leaders indicating support for terrorism?

    Why is that commenters here can demand evidence, yet provide none for their own point of view?

    Hax Vobiscum (edacf7)

  94. “Dana, clearly the problem is that Hassan had become too assimilated.”

    PA – Let me suggest a minor correction.

    Dana, clearly the problem is that Hassan had become too assimilated and too moderate.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  95. “Why is that commenters here can demand evidence, yet provide none for their own point of view?”

    Actual Islamic terrorism is JUST not enough!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  96. Hax, I read several of the links you provided and a familiar justification to their denouncement appears something like this,

    Al Qaradawi said, “we Arab Muslims are the most affected by the grave consequences of hostile attack on man and life. We share the suffering experienced by innocent Palestinians at the hands of the tyrannical Jewish entity who raze the Palestinian homes to the ground, set fire to their tilth, kill them cold-bloodedly, and leave innocent orphans wailing behind.

    “With this in mind, the daily life in Palestine has become a permanent memorial gathering. When Palestinians face such unjust aggression, they tend to stem bloodletting and destruction and not to claim the lives of innocent civilians.”

    “I categorically go against a committed Muslim’s embarking on such attacks. Islam never allows a Muslim to kill the innocent and the helpless.

    Also, I cannot find anywhere in the provided links any outright denouncement and forbidding of violent domestic terrorism against the wives, daughters, mothers and other uterus owners within Muslim families. Am I missing it?

    Dana (137151)

  97. Daleyrocks: Thanks for admitting that your views on moderate Muslims are based on the acts of Muslim extremists, not on the acts of moderate Muslims themselves.
    .

    Hax Vobiscum (edacf7)

  98. Let’s see, a man running a TV station that espouses the values of moderate muslims is indicted for beheading his wife. Her body is found where?

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  99. Dana – Hax has been studiously ignoring uterus owners. Their treatment under Islam is tough to reconcile with the lefty narrative.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  100. Hax, perhaps a definition of terms is in order: Exactly what is your definition of a moderate Muslim? Please be specific.

    Dana (137151)

  101. “Daleyrocks: Thanks for admitting that your views on moderate Muslims are based on the acts of Muslim extremists, not on the acts of moderate Muslims themselves.”

    Hax – Please point out that admission.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  102. Hax has been studiously ignoring uterus owners. Their treatment under Islam is tough to reconcile with the lefty narrative.

    And it is this silence that makes them complicit in the normalization of evil in the Islmaic societies and ultimately America. (Perhaps it is already so. It’s just below the radar.) Scholar Phyllis Chessler provides an exhaustive list of what the ghastly silence holds,

    Female genital cutting, sexual slavery of women and female children, wife- and daughter-beating, honor murders, forced veiling, purdah (segregation – sequestration), and arranged and polygamous marriage. These barbaric customs are normalized, not criminalized, and they characterize what I term Islamic gender apartheid. These practices also preceded Western imperialism and colonialism.

    There is also silence about the high rate of AIDS with which young girls and women are being infected by their male partners (especially in the Third World), and about sexual, reproductive and physical violence, including incest and within marriage, and about both economic discrimination and rape in general (again, especially in the Third World), the repeated public gang-rapes of genitally infibulated girls and women in the Sudan which have been carried out against black African Muslims, Christians, and animists by ethnic Arab Muslims. (In my writing, I have referred to this as ‘gender cleansing’.), as well as silence about the history of Muslim slave traders, about the current black African slave trade among ethnic Arab Muslims, and about the genocide against black Africans being carried out in the Sudan by ethnic Arab Muslims.

    Dana (137151)

  103. Dear Dana:

    You’ll never get an admission, sad to say.

    See #94.

    Isn’t a strange old world to see the Progressive Left support these kinds of cultures, while attacking people like Larry Summers for daring to make comments about gender in society.

    But then, Larry Summers doesn’t have a history or rioting, beheading, or otherwise physically threatening his opponents.

    Hmmm…

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  104. The evidence is clear: only a tiny minority of Muslims support terrorism.

    Hax, as you have made inflammatory statements such as the one above while conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room: Domestic Terrorism, I am going to consider your arguments disingenuous. I am one by nature to give the benefit of the doubt until evidence proves otherwise and in this, your avoidance in explaining this enormous inconsistency speaks volumes.

    Cultures, societies and even civilizations can be judged by how they treat(ed) their most vulnerable members, whether a 1,000 years ago or today.

    Dana (137151)

  105. Daleyrocks: Thanks for admitting that your views on moderate Muslims are based on the acts of Muslim extremists, not on the acts of moderate Muslims themselves.

    That’s called “circular reasoning.” Also known as “begging the question.” Show of hands: who’s heard of it?

    Alan (551a6d)

  106. “The evidence is clear: only a tiny minority of Muslims support terrorism.”

    Dana – Since only such a tiny minority support terrorism, presumably inclusive of domestic terrorism, why is it that the supermajority of moderate muslims have not yet put an end to the tyranny of the tiny majority. This is especially sad to see in countries not living under sharia law such as the U.K. and the Netherlands, using this post as an example.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  107. Dana, I think what we have here is reflexive cultural contrary-inism (I don’t think that is a genuine word, but you know what I mean).

    It’s pretty common in most college courses—take something that is taken as a given (the US is a force for good in the world) and “deconstruct” it.

    All that is fine and good, but in my experience, the practitioners of this sport focus like a laser on wrongdoing by the “conventional wisdom” while showing a studied amnesia of wrongdoing by those other cultures. This, the eeevvvviiiillll of Israel in Gaza, and a uncomplicated ignorance of Hamas’ actions towards dissents in Gaza (including journalists). Not to mention the rocket attacks. Those aren’t real, apparently.

    In some ways, I think it is veiled racism and a twisted form of American/Western Exceptionalism: these folks don’t hold “other people” to the standards here. And American or Western influence seems to be the causative agent for all the worlds ills, while the people actually doing evil are given metaphorical passes.

    If these folks treated all the world with the suspicion they focus on Dick Cheney, I would feel differently. But it all seems to be one way.

    On the other hand, this cat may just like to argue and be contrary.

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  108. 109: contrarianism. Not trying to nitpick; I like your comments.

    Alan (551a6d)

  109. That’s called “circular reasoning.”

    Alan – His whole argument, if you could call it that, that people like Geert Wilders are great for bin Laden, is just a big “chicken versus egg” debate. There’s nothing there.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  110. daleyrocks–I disagree. I don’t think there’s a clear answer to the chicken-versus-egg debate, and I think that debate actually is both interesting and worth having. By contrast, I think of Hax’s arguments as more like the arguments you hear from civil libertarians that voter-ID laws will never stop voter fraud but will disenfranchise millions of law-abiding citizens. Arguments not worth hearing, bereft of common sense, and a thousand times more annoying than your least favorite STD.

    Alan (551a6d)

  111. Isn’t it interesting that The Hax cites a Pew Poll on Muslim beliefs that did not poll in the largest and/or most influential Muslim countries?
    I seem to recall a study that found that there has never been an accurate public-opinion poll in a Muslim and/or Arab country – especially by a Western polling orginization. If someone has info to contradict this, I would appreciate it being brought forward.

    AD - RtR/OS (a4db8f)

  112. And American or Western influence seems to be the causative agent for all the worlds ills, while the people actually doing evil are given metaphorical passes.

    And yet as most of us know, these evils perpetrated against women in the Islamic society preceded Western imperialism and colonialism. America cannot be blamed for this.

    To continually use America as the excuse demeans and dismisses the strength and independence of other nations and their citizens. It insults continues to victimize. Pathologies, indeed.

    Dana (137151)

  113. Yet again, I repeat: I have no truck with Islam, nor certainly with Muslims who discriminate against women in any form.

    It’s telling that the best many can do here is to accuse me of supporting Islam when I’ve made it utterly plain that I do not.

    While I don’t support Islam, I do support the right of others to worship the god of their choice, which of course includes Allah.

    My concern about the Campaign of Hate against Muslims is that it is wildly at odds with the facts, as the debate here shows.

    People claim they’ve never heard moderate Muslims condemn terror, yet Google is stuff full of moderate Muslims condemning terror.

    Where is the moderate and/or mainstream Muslim cleric or political leaders supporting terrorism? Where are they? Why no evidence???

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  114. Hax, would you at least concede that any country will have a bigger problem accommodating the sensitivity of Muslims than it would have accommodating the sensitivity of members of any other religion–and do you concede that there’s some significance to that fact other than that a “tiny minority” of Islam is more problematic than all the “tiny minorities” of all the other religions?

    For example, do you think it’s significant to this debate that a work of “art” like “Piss Christ” is a lot safer to unveil (no pun intended) than any depicion of Muhammad that isn’t glowing?

    Alan (551a6d)

  115. Or any visual depiction of Muhammad at all, I should have added.

    Alan (551a6d)

  116. yet Google is stuff full of moderate Muslims condemning terror.

    That’s interesting, since you’ve yet to offer any tangible evidence of it. But I just love how you toss off lines like this to justify your malfeasance in the matter at hand.

    Where is the moderate and/or mainstream Muslim cleric or political leaders supporting terrorism? Where are they? Why no evidence???

    Silence = aquiesence. Or to put it another way, the great British philosopher Edmund Burke put it best:

    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

    Let me ask you something, Hacky – when abortion clinics were bombed by groups affiliated with the Christian Right, they were roundly condemned by leaders like Billy Graham – but who has come out from the Muslim community to condemn the heinious acts committed in their religions’ name? Anyone? Hello?

    Dmac (49b16c)

  117. Alan, no problem.

    I think that the “Piss Christ” example is a good one. What would be the response of a portrait of “Mohammed and his Donkey Bride”? Or “…his Donkey Husband,” come to think of it? NEA support? A coffee table book?

    All the people who have spouted off supporting anti-Christian imagery in art would turn right around and condemn anti-Muslim imagery as hateful. The former is “edgy” and “controversial.”

    Look, I wouldn’t mind if the arts community was fair minded about this. But they are decidedly one sided about it…all the while, accusing the Right of being one sided! Maddening.

    As for HV, the word I am looking for is disingenuous.

    Dana, if you haven’t read “The Trouble with Islam Today,” by Irshad Manji, it is worth your time.

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  118. While I’m asking questions I don’t expect to see answered, I’ll add a couple more:

    Hax, should we forget about Muslims all across the world, from New Jersey to Canada to Palestine/Israel dancing in the streets on 9/11?

    This one I stole from Michael Savage: How long will it take you to name three major inter-ethnic conflicts going on today that don’t involve Muslims who can’t get along with their neighbors?

    Alan (551a6d)

  119. Speaking of “An Inconvenient Truth,” Alan.

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  120. It’s telling that the best many can do here is to accuse me of supporting Islam when I’ve made it utterly plain that I do not.

    My concern about the Campaign of Hate against Muslims is that it is wildly at odds with the facts, as the debate here shows.

    Lies.

    A poll last year by Populus found that 13 per cent of Muslims aged 16 to 24 “admire organisations like al-Qa’eda that are prepared to fight the West”.


    Lies
    .

    Turkey is the only country surveyed over time by Pew that bucks the trend of declining support for terrorist violence. Though most Turkish Muslims (61%) say terrorist attacks are never justified, that majority has decreased from last year (66%). An additional 9 percent say violence against civilians is rarely justified and 17 percent say it is often or sometimes justified.

    Nearly half of Egyptian Muslims (45%), surveyed only this year by Pew, also say that terrorism is never justified; nine percent say it is rarely justified and 28 percent believe it is often or sometimes justified. Nigerian Muslims were also polled for the first time in 2006 and were the only Muslim population surveyed that tended to favor terrorist violence to defend Islam. Only 28 percent of Nigerian Muslims say that terrorist attacks are never justified. An additional 23 percent say they are rarely justified and 46 percent think such killings are often or sometimes justified.

    In fact, other surveys show that small minorities are willing to report terrorist plots being planned. The reports minimize the fact that Muslims have a paranoid view of the world and are careful to understate their support for terrorists when outsiders are polling.

    Once again, we see the political left allying with enemies of civilization. That doesn’t mean I think Muslims deserve what they get; just that Islam will be a failed culture until they get over the radical distortion of the religion that the jihadis have promoted. Someone who is stupid enough to say that the Taliban are not religious will say anything.

    In fact, the hopeful signs in Iraq and even Afghanistan are a rejection of the radical Islam of the takfiri elements. It is as though the Inquisition was trying to take Catholicism back to 1400. They would be laughed at. When Islam gets to the point that these takfiris are ridiculed, Islam will be ready for progress and a modern economy. One reason why Indonesia is so moderate is that the version of Islam followed in Indonesia is very local with lots of magic and local superstition.

    I have reviewed Kilcullen’s new book at Amazon that explains this. Maybe the trolls should read it.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  121. 119: Even aside from the hypocrisy of many on the Left (and I totally agree)… well, all I was trying to hit on was the narrower point that you recognized in the first part of your response: that you can mock Christianity in the most horribly offensive ways and never worry that you’re going to die for it–but that if you offend Islam, you will get death threats from more people than you will ever meet for the rest of your life, and may get murdered. Remember what happened when the Pope offended Muslims a couple years back? “Tiny minority” my eye.

    Alan (551a6d)

  122. But they are decidedly one sided about it…all the while, accusing the Right of being one sided! Maddening.

    You know full well the reason, Eric – twoof to power, but only power that won’t hurt me. When Clooney was lionized for his lame attempt at reviving Murrow’s takedown of McCarthy, I just gagged – I guess the disembowlment of one of their own in the middle of a Dutch street in broad daylight was too scawy for them to even contemplate.

    from New Jersey to Canada to Palestine/Israel dancing in the streets on 9/11?

    Don’t forget Dearborn, Michigan – those celebrations went on for days there.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  123. Alan, the facts need to fit Teh Narrative.

    We see it every day. It’s no longer hypocrisy.

    Teh Narrative rules, and all that matters is partisan divisions.

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  124. Yeah, Dmac, I would like to see Sean Penn do a movie about speaking out against abuses of women by (to fit his own world view) the Saudis.

    He would never do it, tough guy that he is.

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  125. Dmac–ah, I did forget. And I bet we’ve all forgotten more. I didn’t bother researching to find any more (if I did, I’m sure I’d find lots of examples all across the fruited plain); I relied only on memory, so I left out quite a lot.

    Alan (551a6d)

  126. I’m still waiting for examples of mainstream Muslims voiceing support for terrorism..

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  127. Muslims who discriminate against women in any form.

    It is utterly offensive to see the term discriminate being used to describe behavior toward women wherein their clitoris is forcibly removed, wherein their heads are separated from their bodies, wherein they are stoned to death (while buried in the ground but modestly having the dirt above their breasts wherein men buried, the dirt remains at waist level – and remember, according to law, if anyone can escape the earth, the stoning must stop. Ironic: Not even in a goddamn stoning is there equal treatment), wherein they are beaten so savagely – in the name of “discipline”, they swallow their tongues, wherein they are lit on fire, wherein their father or brothers are compelled by law to save their own honor by killing them, wherein they cannot even be a victim of rape – bu must also assume the guilt.

    This is not discrimination, Hax, this is so far beyond anything we’ve seen in our own ugly history of discrimination that it’s almost unspeakable. That you can neatly tuck such evil and monstrous behavior into that little word is telling. And it’s disgraceful.

    Dana (137151)

  128. make that “mainstream Muslim political, religious or academic leaders.”

    To be sure, a small number of Muslims support terrrorism, just as do a small number of people of all religions and backgrounds.

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  129. 128: How about all those Muslims celebrating and jumping for joy on and after 9/11? I think I already gave a few examples, and Dmac gave another. Unless of course you’re defining “mainstream” in a circular manner.

    Alan (551a6d)

  130. My apologies, Patterico, for the profanity.

    Dana (137151)

  131. Oh, and how about the polls that were just cited? Are you ignoring those?

    Alan (551a6d)

  132. Mainstream Muslims don’t need to voice support for terrorism, just as mainstream journalists don’t need to advocate Leftists causes, because both are the perceived wisdom of the milieu they swim in.

    AD - RtR/OS (a4db8f)

  133. Heck, how about the fact that the Palestinians voted in Hamas? How about the fact that a large plurality of Pakistanis have a favorable view of Osama bin Laden (46 percent favorable, 26 percent unfavorable, according to http://www.terrorfreetomorrow.org/upimagestft/CNN%20Story.pdf)?

    Alan (551a6d)

  134. Well, Hax, are you done waiting?

    Alan (551a6d)

  135. Cultural relativism, exhibit A:


    “..To be sure, a small number of Muslims support terrrorism, just as do a small number of people of all religions and backgrounds….”


    That was tough to read, knowing what we all know. But it is a great example of the triumph of politics over reality. Seriously, look at the sentence.

    It wouldn’t matter, even if polls were piled up at HV feet. It doesn’t fit Teh Narrative.

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  136. Alan, be prepared for a bout of spinning like an ultracentrifuge.

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  137. I just don’t understand how stupidity like this can exist. I can’t pretend that I haven’t come face-to-face with people who insist on these things… In fact, when I was at Brown (in college), on the first anniversary of 9/11, all I heard was about how America was asking for what it got that day, and how Islam means peace, and everyone was just fascinated by Islam, everyone accepting without question that it’s just a tiny tiny minority, evidence be damned… But after all the years of having heard this garbage, I’m still amazed that anyone could still believe it.

    Alan (551a6d)

  138. Alan @112 – I was referring to the argument made by Hax, not reality. I agree the discussion is worth having, but not with blinders on.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  139. To be very serious here, Alan, the reason grows from several sources:

    1. Ignorance of history.
    2. Cultural relativism to the point of judging American actions far more harshly than the actions of other cultures.
    3. The wish to avoid saying “I was wrong.”

    Point 3 is very, very strong.

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  140. “Heck, how about the fact that the Palestinians voted in Hamas?”

    Alan – Lefty conventional wisdom is that Hamas is a benevolent social organization. Heh!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  141. I’m still waiting for examples of mainstream Muslims voiceing support for terrorism..

    Silence = aquiesence, asshat.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  142. I’m still waiting for examples of mainstream Muslims voiceing support for terrorism..

    Well, there’s the problem. You’re setting up a “no true Scotsman” situation. If we point to someone who’s been exposed, you get to state they’re not “mainstream” because of the reaction to their exposure.

    But let’s start with the imam chosen to head the Islamic Center of Cleveland, who resigned the position after he was found quoting that wonderful piece of Islamic theology regarding the very trees and rocks exposing Jews so they can be murdered. His predecessor had been well-known for “inter-faith outreach”, at least until he was ‘filmed urging his supporters to point “a rifle at the first and last enemy of the Islamic nation, and that is the sons of monkeys and pigs, the Jews.”‘

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  143. Kind of makes Swaggart look benign, doesn’t it?

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  144. But Rob, remember Rule #1 of Trolldom:

    Place the burden of proof onto your opponents so that you, the troll, don’t have to produce anything.

    Instead, keep attacking the data (as in your “No True Scotsman” comment).

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  145. “Well, there’s the problem. You’re setting up a “no true Scotsman” situation. If we point to someone who’s been exposed, you get to state they’re not “mainstream” because of the reaction to their exposure.”

    Rob – Whereas actual Muslims who condemn the excesses of Islam or radical Islam, and actually mean it, face death threats, expulsion from adopted countries and similar consequences.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  146. Eric–how’s this for a troll slogan along the lines of what you mentioned at 146:

    “You can’t prove you don’t have the burden of proof!”

    Alan (551a6d)

  147. Still waiting, Hax?

    Alan (551a6d)

  148. To be fair, we cannot expect Hax to prove Muslims are not extremists — you cannot prove a negative.

    In any case, the number of Muslim leaders held up as “moderates” who have turned out to be, well, less than moderate makes it difficult to argue that Muslims in general are opposed to this kind of thinking.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  149. I’m just asking him to stop ignoring the evidence we put forth after saying “You have no evidence.” But I guess his cowardly refusal to say anything in response is good enough.

    Alan (551a6d)

  150. Alan: silence = aquiesence. Translation: he’s got nothing.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  151. I know. It’s just dissatisfying for this to be the way it’s proven. I keep waiting to continue the fight, but I guess it’s neither necessary nor worth it.

    Alan (551a6d)

  152. It’s all about being contrary, but with little investment in time or effort, Alan.

    After all, he is just asking questions.

    As for #148, I think we have entered into the “I work here is done” territory.

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  153. Alas, you’re right.

    Oh, well. I did get the enjoyment of learning about the “no true Scotsman” fallacy. Special thanks to Rob and, secondarily, Wikipedia for building my vocabulary tonight.

    Alan (551a6d)

  154. Seriously, I have seen this before, and so have you.

    1. Person from the Left goes to a Right-leaning website.
    2. Person decides to be the Lonely and Righteous Voice of Reason on that site.
    3. Person becomes reactively contrarian.

    It’s not about the subject matter at all; it’s just about giving what the poster thinks is “the other side of the story” even if that side defends mutilators of women and folks who encourage others to blow themselves up in the presence of innocent people.

    Even people who produce a cartoon show filled with hatred and anti-Semitism.

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  155. daleyrocks,
    I was commiserating with you!

    Patricia (89cb84)

  156. Commiserating? Isn’t that illegal in 25 countries?

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  157. I think it was banned in Boston at some time.

    AD - RtR/OS (a4db8f)

  158. Hard to believe there was a time when Boston actually banned things.

    Alan (551a6d)

  159. Other than prayer in schools, you mean.

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  160. To be sure, a small number of Muslims support terrrorism, just as do a small number of people of all religions and backgrounds.

    Comment by Hax Vobiscum

    Others have pointed out the logical fallacy but, once again, this is just lies piled on lies. There are Hindus that have advocated violence and committed violence against Muslims in India but that is the residue of a vicious civil war. We had some activity like this in the aftermath of our Civil War. We called it the Ku Klux Klan. It wasn’t religious.

    There are no other religious groups I know of that advocate violence AS A PRINCIPLE OF THE RELIGION.

    Only Islam has violence and terrorism as part of the creed. In Kilcullen’s book, he discusses why Indonesian and south Asian Islamic culture tends not to be as violent as the Arab variety. These people seem to have added Islam on top of a traditional culture that included magic, animistic beliefs and other cultural remnants of the pre-Islamic period.

    Even in Iraq, he quotes sheiks saying that the takfiris are trying to suppress the cultural practices of the tribe and that is one big reason why the tribes turned on them in Anbar and other areas. For example, the takfiris demanded wives from the tribes and insisted on rigid sharia in societies that had been far more casual about the Islamic law, relying on local sheiks and their traditional tribal way of doing things.

    In Pakistan, the takfiris have been more successful in marrying into tribes and burrowing into the local society. That is probably because the FATA and rural Afghan tribes are really primitive, hardly more advanced than they were in Alexander the Great’s time. Iraqis are more sophisticated and did not accept the takfiris primitive version of Islam.

    Now, for an ill-informed twerp to keep spouting ignorant generalities is just annoying. I’d suggest a reading program.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  161. lol. Yes, very good point.

    Alan (551a6d)

  162. ___________________________________

    I’m still waiting for examples of mainstream Muslims voiceing support for terrorism..

    Well, golly, gee, I think such voices actually aren’t in keeping with the innate theological aspects of Islam and certainly its founder. The people you cite, therefore, really need to get with the program or find another religion.

    Islamreview.com:

    The turning point in Mohammed’s life, however, was the raid against Badr. Muslims were able to kill dozens of Meccans and take scores of prisoners and much booty. On their way back to Medina some of those prisoners were put to death. One of them was a man name Uqbah bin abi Muait. Before his execution Uqbah pleaded with Mohammed saying, “Who, then, will take care of my little girl?” Mohammed answered, “Hell-fire.”

    After that, a confident Mohammed starting moving against his enemies in a series of attacks that resulted in the elimination of Jewish tribes and the assassination of certain individuals for the slightest offense.

    The assassination of Kaab ibn al-Ashraf, of the Jewish tribe Banu al-Nodair, was prompted by Kaab showing sympathy for the Qorayshites, and then when he returned to Mecca he recited amorous poetry to Muslim women. Mohammed was enraged and asked for volunteers to rid him of ibn al-Ashraf. Those who volunteered asked for permission to lie in order to lure him out of his house at night into a remote area where they were able to kill him.

    A poetess named Asmaa bint Marwan was ordered to be killed for uttering a few verses of poetry against Mohammed. A Muslim assassin, acting on Mohammed’s orders, crept at night into the women’s bed while her suckling baby was attached to her breast. The man plucked the baby from her breast and then plunged his sword into her abdomen.

    Later, the killer, fearing the consequences of his crime, asked Mohammed, “Will there be any danger to me on her account?” Mohammed answered, “Two goats will not butt each other about her.”

    There were many other outrageous assassinations ordered by Mohammed. Abu Afak, an old man of 120 years of age was murdered for composing poetry critical of the Prophet. Another brutal assassination was against an aged women by the name of Umm Kirfa. They tied her legs to camels which were then driven in opposite directions. The poor woman was split into two pieces.

    The reality of the Muslim assassin’s brutality is punctuated by their practice of cutting off the heads of victims and bringing them to Mohammed. As the killers came into view carrying with them the evidence of Allah’s victory over the enemies of Mohammed, a jubilant Mohammed would cry, “Allaho Akbar,” (God is great)!


    ___________________________________

    Mark (411533)

  163. Commiserating? Isn’t that illegal in 25 countries?

    No, now that we have an African American president, we can all suffer together, all races and religions throughout the world, while he picks our pockets and appeases the evildoers.

    Unicorns!

    Patricia (89cb84)

  164. Hacks can prove his point. Just show us a Muslim peace march. Outside of America.

    Show us a demonstration protesting the violence following the Mohammed cartoons. Show us a protest against the 9/11 attacks, or the Tube bombings or the Madrid bombing or Beslan or Bali.

    Show us Muslims protesting violence en masse, in a place with lots of Muslims.

    There are moderate Muslims, but they’re often afraid to speak out. Do you know why that is, Hacks?

    I can quote Irshad Manji and Mansour Ijaz and Walid Shoebat all day. But those are anecdotes. Show me a whole lot of Muslims turning out to reject violence.

    If you’re smart, you’ll post a link to the Iraqi elections.

    Pablo (99243e)

  165. I’m still waiting for examples of mainstream Muslims voiceing support for terrorism..

    make that “mainstream Muslim political, religious or academic leaders.”

    I take it you are unfamiliar with Al Quds University in Jerusalem, or even Al Azhar in Cairo (where, in addition to teaching that terrorism is an integral part of Islamic warfare against infidels, the principle of demographic warfare against Western Civilization was enunciated in the early 1970s)?

    Jackass.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  166. Here’s your proof, Pablo:

    http://www.marcgopin.com/?p=864
    Dec. 10, 2008
    Millions of Muslims across India have decided to temper or even cancel festivities on their most cherished week of holy yearly celebrations, the Eid, in protest of crimes committed in the name of Islam by the criminals who murdered so many in Mumbai.

    March 18, 2006
    Kattankudy Muslims Saturday observed a shut down in protest against the escalating violence in their area where on Friday four motorbikes belonging to Muslim individuals, were hijacked, allegedly by paramilitary cadres. There is a concerted attempt to create communal violence between Tamils and Muslims, protesters said. Saturday’s protest paralysed the entire Kattankudy. Transport on Batticaloa – Kalmunai road remained blocked and tension prevails in Batticaloa – Kattankudy Tamil, Muslim border areas. Sri Lanka Army (SLA) troopers were seen deployed in the streets.

    April 23, 2007
    http://www.globalpolitician.com/22679-pakistan
    Many of the over 1000 students at the mosque and madrassa Jamia Hafsa recently waged a ‘morality campaign,’ arresting supposed prostitutes and “un-Islamic” female car drivers, as well as threatening owners of CD stores.

    Clerics at the Red Mosque set up a self-declared “Islamic court”, challenging the authority of the government of President Pervez Musharraf. Musharraf this week named ‘extremism, obscurantism and religious bigotry’ as the greatest internal threats to the country, but has remained incapable of countering the threat other than by promising a negotiated settlement with Islamist radicals.

    The radicals threatened suicide attacks if authorities challenge them militarily.

    Last Sunday, moderates gathered in Karachi to protest the enforced anti-vice campaign by the fundamentalists, attacking it as campaign of “terrorism”.

    Moderate groups, including women’s rights and human rights organizations, demanded immediate government action against administrators at the notorious Red Mosque.

    Other rallies by moderates against Talibanization Pakistan took place in the cities of Lahore, Karachi and Peshawar.

    “We have been watching with anger and frustration the terrorism being inflicted on the residents of Islamabad by madrassa students,” said social worker Naeem Mirza. ‘Enough is enough now, we demand that the government act immediately to end the intimidation of the citizens at the hands of extremists.”

    Protesters rejected a negotiations with Taliban-style radicals.

    “They will only be encouraged by the flexibility shown by the government,” academic and rally participant Dr Sherin Mazari said.

    “A state-within-a-state is not acceptable to us,” declared Anis Haroon of the Aurat Foundation while addressing a rally called against religious extremism as espoused by the Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa Thursday.

    “During the tenure of different governments there have been conspiracies against women and the Jamia Hafsa matter is also a deep plot against women,” she said while standing on a pick-up in front of a small but formidable crowd at the Quaid-e-Azam Mazaar.

    There are dozens more examples. Literally too many to list.

    This is proof beyond reasonable doubt here that the commenters who say these protests don’t happen are deeply, willfully ignorant of the region and its politics and current events.

    They don’t even bother to look.

    Unbelievable.

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  167. Hax will be excusing Muslim violence as the next KSM draws the knife across his throat.

    AD - RtR/OS (a4db8f)

  168. No one’s “excusing” Muslim violence.

    I’m merely pointing to the fact that the vast majority of Muslims have nothing to do with terrorism and want nothing more than to live in peace.

    I’ve said, over and over and over again that I condemn terrorism strongly and unequivocally, no matter who carries it out.

    Hax Vobiscum (23258e)

  169. Comment by Hax Vobiscum — 2/15/2009 @ 9:53 pm

    If what you say is true, why are they completely incapable of eliminating this cancer from their body politic?
    They have demonstrated no desire, or capability to do so.

    AD - RtR/OS (a4db8f)

  170. Nobody here said the vast majority of Muslims have anything to do with terrorism, Hacks. Again, you argue against points not made, and that only exist in the charicatures dancing around in your head.

    JD (c2765f)

  171. Hax,

    In 2001, I had an experience with an ex co-worker. He said:

    Jews are pigs and monkeys and drink the blood of Muslim children. America deserves what it gets because it sticks its nose in everyone’s business.

    My ex co-worker is a Shiite Muslim from India. He was primarily raised in New York and is an educated young man. I believe both his parents are doctors and he has a college degree. He is well liked. Despite the heinousness of what he said, I said nothing. I believe I should have said something since my mother is Jewish and he made the statement while we were talking about 9/11.

    Even though his boss (who was not my boss) was there, my ex co-worker did not have a consequence for his statement. However when another co-worker asked me a specific question about salvation and Christianity, I was told that was inappropriate speech for work.

    Though this example is anecdotal, I wanted to show you that my co-worker was a so called moderate Muslim, yet he had what you would call extreme views.

    BTW, he also said that he believed that using “suicide bombing” to murder Israelis was okay.

    Tanny O'Haley (868d50)

  172. Tanny, What makes you think your co-worker is “moderate?”

    I don’t think there is anything moderate about advocating suicide bombing to murder Israelis. I don’t know how in the world you came up with the idea that this is “moderate.”

    Hax Vobiscum (edacf7)

  173. Islamic Statements Against Terrorism
    Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS – Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:
    “The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur’an: ‘No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another’ (Surah al-Isra 17:15).”
    MSANews, September 14, 2001, http://msanews.mynet.net/MSANEWS/200109/20010917.15.html;
    Arabic original in al-Quds al-Arabi (London), September 14, 2001, p. 2, http://www.alquds.co.uk/Alquds/2001/09Sep/14%20Sep%20Fri/Quds02.pdf

    Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi, Qatar; Tariq Bishri, Egypt; Muhammad S. Awwa, Egypt; Fahmi Huwaydi, Egypt; Haytham Khayyat, Syria; Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, U.S.:
    “All Muslims ought to be united against all those who terrorize the innocents, and those who permit the killing of non-combatants without a justifiable reason. Islam has declared the spilling of blood and the destruction of property as absolute prohibitions until the Day of Judgment. … [It is] necessary to apprehend the true perpetrators of these crimes, as well as those who aid and abet them through incitement, financing or other support. They must be brought to justice in an impartial court of law and [punished] appropriately. … [It is] a duty of Muslims to participate in this effort with all possible means.”
    Statement of September 27, 2001. The Washington Post, October 11, 2001, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40545-2001Oct10.html
    Full text of this fatwa in English and Arabic.

    Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt:
    “Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. … It’s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.”
    Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

    Abdel-Mo’tei Bayyoumi, al-Azhar Islamic Research Academy, Cairo, Egypt:
    “There is no terrorism or a threat to civilians in jihad [religious struggle].”
    Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 20 – 26 September 2001, http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm

    Muslim Brotherhood, an opposition Islamist group in Egypt, said it was “horrified” by the attack and expressed “condolences and sadness”:
    “[We] strongly condemn such activities that are against all humanist and Islamic morals. … [We] condemn and oppose all aggression on human life, freedom and dignity anywhere in the world.”
    Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 13 – 19 September 2001, http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/551/fo2.htm

    Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, spiritual guide of Shi‘i Muslim radicals in Lebanon, said he was “horrified” by these “barbaric … crimes”:
    “Beside the fact that they are forbidden by Islam, these acts do not serve those who carried them out but their victims, who will reap the sympathy of the whole world. … Islamists who live according to the human values of Islam could not commit such crimes.”
    Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

    ‘Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
    “Firstly: the recent developments in the United States including hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts. Secondly: any Muslim who is aware of the teachings of his religion and who adheres to the directives of the Holy Qur’an and the sunnah (the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad) will never involve himself in such acts, because they will invoke the anger of God Almighty and lead to harm and corruption on earth.”
    Statement of September 15, 2001, http://saudiembassy.net/press_release/01-spa/09-15-Islam.htm

    ‘Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
    “You must know Islam’s firm position against all these terrible crimes. The world must know that Islam is a religion of peace and mercy and goodness; it is a religion of justice and guidance…Islam has forbidden violence in all its forms. It forbids the hijacking airplanes, ships and other means of transport, and it forbids all acts that undermine the security of the innocent.”
    Hajj sermon of February 2, 2004, in “Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation,” May 2004, http://www.saudiembassy.net/ReportLink/Report_Extremism_May04.pdf, page 10

    Shaikh Saleh Al-Luheidan, Chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia:
    “As a human community we must be vigilant and careful to oppose these pernicious and shameless evils, which are not justified by any sane logic, nor by the religion of Islam.”
    Statement of September 14, 2001, in “Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation,” May 2004, http://www.saudiembassy.net/ReportLink/Report_Extremism_May04.pdf, page 6

    Shaikh Saleh Al-Luheidan, Chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia:
    “And I repeat once again: that this act that the United states was afflicted with, with this vulgarity and barbarism, and which is even more barbaric than terrorist acts, I say that these acts are from the depths of depravity and the worst of evils.”
    Televised statement of September 2001, in Muhammad ibn Hussin Al-Qahtani, editor, The Position of Saudi Muslim Scholars Regarding Terrorism in the Name of Islam (Saudi Arabia, 2004), pages 27-28.
    Shaykh Muhammad bin ‘Abdallah al-Sabil, member of the Council of Senior Religious Scholars, Saudi Arabia:
    “Any attack on innocent people is unlawful and contrary to shari’a (Islamic law). … Muslims must safeguard the lives, honor and property of Christians and Jews. Attacking them contradicts shari’a.”
    Agence France Presse, December 4, 2001

    Council of Saudi ‘Ulama’, fatwa of February 2003:
    “What is happening in some countries from the shedding of the innocent blood and the bombing of buildings and ships and the destruction of public and private installations is a criminal act against Islam. … Those who carry out such acts have the deviant beliefs and misleading ideologies and are responsible for the crime. Islam and Muslims should not be held responsible for such actions.”
    The Dawn newspaper, Karachi, Pakistan, February 8, 2003, http://www.dawn.com/2003/02/08/top17.htm; also in “Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation,” May 2004, http://www.saudiembassy.net/ReportLink/Report_Extremism_May04.pdf, page 10

    Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, chairman of the Sunna and Sira Council, Qatar:
    “Our hearts bleed for the attacks that has targeted the World Trade Center [WTC], as well as other institutions in the United States despite our strong oppositions to the American biased policy towards Israel on the military, political and economic fronts. Islam, the religion of tolerance, holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin, this is backed by the Qur’anic verse which reads: ‘Who so ever kills a human being [as punishment] for [crimes] other than manslaughter or [sowing] corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and who so ever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind’ (Al-Ma’idah:32).”
    Statement of September 13, 2001. http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2001-09/13/article25.shtml. Arabic original at http://www.qaradawi.net/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=1665&version=1&template_id=130&parent_id=17

    Tahirul Qadri, head of the Awami Tehrik Party, Pakistan:
    “Bombing embassies or destroying non-military installations like the World Trade Center is no jihad. … “[T]hose who launched the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks not only killed thousands of innocent people in the United States but also put the lives of millions of Muslims across the world at risk. … Bin Laden is not a prophet that we should put thousands of lives at risk for.”
    United Press International, October 18, 2001, http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/17/195606.shtml
    Ayatollah Ali Khamene’i, supreme jurist-ruler of Iran:
    “Killing of people, in any place and with any kind of weapons, including atomic bombs, long-range missiles, biological or chemical weopons, passenger or war planes, carried out by any organization, country or individuals is condemned. … It makes no difference whether such massacres happen in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Qana, Sabra, Shatila, Deir Yassin, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq or in New York and Washington.”
    Islamic Republic News Agency, September 16, 2001, http://www.irna.com/en/hphoto/010916000000.ehp.shtml

    President Muhammad Khatami of Iran:
    “[T]he September 11 terrorist blasts in America can only be the job of a group that have voluntarily severed their own ears and tongues, so that the only language with which they could communicate would be destroying and spreading death.”
    Address to the United Nations General Assembly, November 9, 2001, http://www.president.ir/cronicnews/1380/8008/800818/800818.htm#b3

    League of Arab States:
    “The General-Secretariat of the League of Arab States shares with the people and government of the United States of America the feelings of revulsion, horror and shock over the terrorist attacks that ripped through the World Trade Centre and Pentagon, inflicting heavy damage and killing and wounding thousands of many nationalities. These terrorist crimes have been viewed by the League as inadmissible and deserving all condemnation. Divergence of views between the Arabs and the United States over the latter’s foreign policy on the Middle East crisis does in no way adversely affect the common Arab attitude of compassion with the people and government of the United States at such moments of facing the menace and ruthlessness of international terrorism. In more than one statement released since the horrendous attacks, the League has also expressed deep sympathy with the families of the victims. In remarks to newsmen immediately following the tragic events, Arab League Secretary-General Amre Moussa described the feelings of the Arab world as demonstrably sympathetic with the American people, particularly with families and individuals who lost their loved ones. “It is indeed tormenting that any country or people or city anywhere in the world be the scene of such disastrous attacks,” he added. While convinced that it is both inconceivable and lamentable that such a large-scale, organised terrorist campaign take place anywhere, anytime, the League believes that the dreadful attacks against WTC and the Pentagon unveil, time and again, that the cancer of terrorism can be extensively damaging if left unchecked. It follows that there is a pressing and urgent need to combat world terrorism. In this context, an earlier call by [Egyptian] President Hosni Mubarak for convening an international conference to draw up universal accord on ways and means to eradicate this phenomenon and demonstrate international solidarity is worthy of active consideration. The Arabs have walked a large distancein the fight against cross-border terrorism by concluding in April 1998 the Arab Agreement on Combating Terrorism.”
    September 17, 2001, http://www.leagueofarabstates.org/E_Perspectives_17_09_01.asp

    Dr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, Secretary-General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference:
    “Following the bloody attacks against major buildings and installations in the United States yesterday, Tuesday, September 11, 2001, Dr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, secretary-general of the 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), stated that he was shocked and deeply saddened when he heard of those attacks which led to the death and injury of a very large number of innocent American citizens. Dr. Belkeziz said he was denouncing and condemning those criminal and brutal acts that ran counter to all covenants, humanitarian values and divine religions foremost among which was Islam.”
    Press Release, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, September 12, 2001, http://www.oic-oci.org/press/english/september%202001/america%20on%20attack.htm

    Organization of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers:
    “The Conference strongly condemned the brutal terror acts that befell the United States, caused huge losses in human lives from various nationalities and wreaked tremendous destruction and damage in New York and Washington. It further reaffirmed that these terror acts ran counter to the teachings of the divine religions as well as ethical and human values, stressed the necessity of tracking down the perpetrators of these acts in the light of the results of investigations and bringing them to justice to inflict on them the penalty they deserve, and underscored its support of this effort. In this respect, the Conference expressed its condolences to and sympathy with the people and government of the United States and the families of the victims in these mournful and tragic circumstances.”
    Final Communique of the Ninth Extraordinary Session of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers, October 10, 2001, http://www.oic-oci.org/english/fm/All%20Download/frmex9.htm

    Organization of the Islamic Conference, Summit Conference:
    “We are determined to fight terrorism in all its forms. … Islam is the religion of moderation. It rejects extremism and isolation. There is a need to confront deviant ideology where it appears, including in school curricula. Islam is the religion of diversity and tolerance.”
    Daily Star (Beirut, Lebanon), December 9, 2005, http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=20641
    Mehmet Nuri Yilmaz, Head of the Directorate of Religious Affairs of Turkey:
    “Any human being, regardless of his ethnic and religious origin, will never think of carrying out such a violent, evil attack. Whatever its purpose is, this action cannot be justified and tolerated.”
    Mehmet Nuri Yilmaz, “A Message on Ragaib Night and Terrorism,” September 21, 2001, http://www.diyanet.gov.tr/duyurular/regaibing.htm

    Harun Yahya (Adnan Oktar), Turkish author:
    “Islam does not encourage any kind of terrorism; in fact, it denounces it. Those who use terrorism in the name of Islam, in fact, have no other faculty except ignorance and hatred.”
    Harun Yahya, “Islam Denounces Terrorism,” http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com

    Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi, Pakistani-American Muslim leader:
    “The sudden barbaric attack on innocent citizens living in peace is extremely distressing and deplorable. Every gentle human heart goes out to the victims of this attack and as humans we are ashamed at the barbarism perpetrated by a few people. Islam, which is a religion of peace and tolerance, condemns this act and sees this is as a wounding scar on the face of humanity. I appeal to Muslims to strongly condemn this act, express unity with the victims’ relatives, donate blood, money and do whatever it takes to help the affected people.”
    “Messages From Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi,” http://www.icna.org/wtc_islahi.htm

    Abdal-Hakim Murad, British Muslim author:
    “Targeting civilians is a negation of every possible school of Sunni Islam. Suicide bombing is so foreign to the Quranic ethos that the Prophet Samson is entirely absent from our scriptures.”
    “The Hijackers Were Not Muslims After All: Recapturing Islam From the Terrorists,” http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/masud/ISLAM/ahm/recapturing.htm

    Syed Mumtaz Ali, President of the Canadian Society of Muslims:
    “We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Canadians in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.”
    Canadian Society of Muslims, Media Release, September 12, 2001, http://muslim-canada.org/news09112001.html

    15 American Muslim organizations:
    “We reiterate our unequivocal condemnation of the crime committed on September 11, 2001 and join our fellow Americans in mourning the loss of up to 6000 innocent civilians.”
    Muslim American Society (MAS), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), Muslim Alliance of North America (MANA), Muslim Student Association (MSA), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), United Association for Studies and Research (UASR), Solidarity International, American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ), American Muslim Alliance (AMA), United Muslim Americans Association (UMAA), Islamic Media Foundation (IMF), American Muslim Foundation (AMF), Coordinating Council of Muslim Organizations (CCMO), American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ), Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA), October 22, 2001, http://www.icna.org/wtc_pr.htm

    57 leaders of North American Islamic organizations, 77 intellectuals, and dozens of concerned citizens:
    “As American Muslims and scholars of Islam, we wish to restate our conviction that peace and justice constitute the basic principles of the Muslim faith. We wish again to state unequivocally that neither the al-Qaeda organization nor Usama bin Laden represents Islam or reflects Muslim beliefs and practice. Rather, groups like al-Qaeda have misused and abused Islam in order to fit their own radical and indeed anti-Islamic agenda. Usama bin Laden and al-Qaeda’s actions are criminal, misguided and counter to the true teachings of Islam.”
    Statement Rejecting Terrorism, September 9, 2002, http://www.islam-democracy.org/terrorism_statement.asp
    American Muslim Political Coordination Council:
    “American Muslims utterly condemn what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.”
    http://capwiz.com/cair/issues/alert/?alertid=49818&type=CU&azip=

    Dr. Agha Saeed, National Chair of the American Muslim Alliance:
    “These attacks are against both divine and human laws and we condemn them in the strongest terms. The Muslim Americans join the nation in calling for swift apprehension and stiff punishment of the perpetrators, and offer our sympathies to the victims and their families.”
    http://www.amaweb.org/AMA%20Condemns.html

    Hamza Yusuf, American Muslim leader:
    “Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people [who committed murder on September 11] indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they’re obviously very sick people and I can’t even look at it in religious terms. It’s politics, tragic politics. There’s no Islamic justification for any of it. … You can’t kill innocent people. There’s no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country. And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country. In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said, “Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,” and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, “Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.” The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It’s prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil.”
    San Jose Mercury News, September 15, 2001, http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/isl0916.htm

    Nuh Ha Mim Keller, American Muslim author:
    “Muslims have nothing to be ashamed of, and nothing to hide, and should simply tell people what their scholars and religious leaders have always said: first, that the Wahhabi sect has nothing to do with orthodox Islam, for its lack of tolerance is a perversion of traditional values; and second, that killing civilians is wrong and immoral.”
    “Making the World Safe for Terrorism,” September 30, 2001, http://66.34.131.5/ISLAM/nuh/terrorism.htm

    Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens), prominent British Muslim:
    “I wish to express my heartfelt horror at the indiscriminate terrorist attacks committed against innocent people of the United States yesterday. While it is still not clear who carried out the attack, it must be stated that no right thinking follower of Islam could possibly condone such an action: the Qur’an equates the murder of one innocent person with the murder of the whole of humanity. We pray for the families of all those who lost their lives in this unthinkable act of violence as well as all those injured; I hope to reflect the feelings of all Muslims and people around the world whose sympathies go out to the victims at this sorrowful moment.”
    [On singing an a cappella version of “Peace Train” for the Concert for New York City:] “After the tragedy, my heart was heavy with sadness and shock, and I was determined to help in some way. Organizers asked me to take part in a message for tolerance and sing ‘Peace Train.’ Of course, I agreed. … As a Muslim from the West, it is important to me to let people know that these acts of mass murder have nothing to do with Islam and the beliefs of Muslims.”
    Press release of September 13, 2001, and PR Newswire, October 22, 2001, both at http://www.mountainoflight.co.uk/pages/news/2001.html

    Muslims Against Terrorism, a U.S.-based organization:
    “As Muslims, we condemn terrorism in all its forms and manifestations. Ours is a religion of peace. We are sick and tired of extremists dictating the public face of Islam.”
    http://www.muslimsagainstterrorism.org/aboutus.html. This statement has been replaced by a new statement in favor of peace by the group’s successor organization, Muslim Voices for Peace, http://www.mvp-us.org.

    Abdulaziz Sachedina, professor of religious studies, University of Virginia:
    “New York was grieving. Sorrow covered the horizons. The pain of separation and of missing family members, neighbors, citizens, humans could be felt in every corner of the country. That day was my personal day of “jihad” (“struggle”) – jihad with my pride and my identity as a Muslim. This is the true meaning of jihad – “struggle with one’s own ego and false pride.” I don’t ever recall that I had prayed so earnestly to God to spare attribution of such madness that was unleashed upon New York and Washington to the Muslims. I felt the pain and, perhaps for the first time in my entire life, I felt embarrassed at the thought that it could very well be my fellow Muslims who had committed this horrendous act of terrorism. How could these terrorists invoke God’s mercifulness and compassion when they had, through their evil act, put to shame the entire history of this great religion and its culture of toleration?”
    “Where Was God on September 11?,” http://www.virginia.edu/~soasia/newsletter/Fall01/God.html

    Ali Khan, professor of law, Washburn University School of Law:
    “To the most learned in the text of the Quran, these verses must be read in the context of many other verses that stipulate the Islamic law of war—a war that the Islamic leader must declare after due consultation with advisers. For the less learned, however, these verses may provide the motivation and even the plot for a merciless strike against a self-chosen enemy.”
    “Attack on America: An Islamic Perspective, September 17, 2001, http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forum/forumnew29.htm

    Muqtedar Khan, assistant professor of political science, Adrian College, Michigan, USA:
    “What happened on September 11th in New York and Washington DC will forever remain a horrible scar on the history of Islam and humanity. No matter how much we condemn it, and point to the Quran and the Sunnah to argue that Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, the fact remains that the perpetrators of this crime against humanity have indicated that their actions are sanctioned by Islamic values. The fact that even now several Muslim scholars and thousands of Muslims defend the accused is indicative that not all Muslims believe that the attacks are unIslamic. This is truly sad. … If anywhere in your hearts there is any sympathy or understanding with those who committed this act, I invite you to ask yourself this question, would Muhammad (pbuh) sanction such an act? While encouraging Muslims to struggle against injustice (Al Quran 4:135), Allah also imposes strict rules of engagement. He says in unequivocal terms that to kill an innocent being is like killing entire humanity (Al Quran 5:32). He also encourages Muslims to forgive Jews and Christians if they have committed injustices against us (Al Quran 2:109, 3:159, 5:85).”
    “Memo to American Muslims,” October 5, 2001, http://www.ijtihad.org/memo.htm

    Dr. Alaa Al-Yousuf, Bahraini economist and political activist:
    “On Friday, 14 September [the first Friday prayers after 11 September], almost the whole world expressed its condemnation of the crime and its grief for the bereaved families of the victims. Those who abstained or, even worse, rejoiced, will have joined the terrorists, not in the murder, but in adding to the incalculable damage on the other victims of the atrocity, namely, Islam as a faith, Muslims and Arabs as peoples, and possibly the Palestinian cause. The terrorists and their apologists managed to sully Islam as a faith both in the eyes of many Muslims and non-Muslims alike.”
    Interview with the International Forum for Islamic Dialogue, London, http://www.islam21.net/pages/keyissues/key7-6.htm

    Dr. S. Parvez Manzoor, Swedish-based Muslim author:
    “If these acts of terror indeed have been perpetrated by Muslim radicals or fundamentalists, they have reaped nothing but eternal damnation, shame and ignominy. For nothing, absolutely nothing, could remotely be advanced as an excuse for these barbaric acts. They represent a total negation of Islamic values, an utter disregard of our fiqhi tradition, and a slap in the face of the Ummah. They are in total contrast to what Islamic reason, compassion and faith stand for. Even from the more mundane criteria of common good, the maslaha of the jurists, these acts are treasonous and suicidal. Islamic faith has been so callously and casually sacrificed at the altar of politics, a home-grown politics of parochial causes, primeval passions, self-endorsing piety and messianic terror.”
    Interview with the International Forum for Islamic Dialogue, London, http://www.islam21.net/pages/keyissues/key7-6.htm

    Anwar Ibrahim, Malaysian Islamic activist and former deputy prime minister:
    “Never in Islam’s entire history has the action of so few of its followers caused the religion and its community of believers to be such an abomination in the eyes of others. Millions of Muslims who fled to North America and Europe to escape poverty and persecution at home have become the object of hatred and are now profiled as potential terrorists. And the nascent democratic movements in Muslim countries will regress for a few decades as ruling autocrats use their participation in the global war against terrorism to terrorize their critics and dissenters. This is what Mohammed Atta and his fellow terrorists and sponsors have done to Islam and its community worldwide by their murder of innocents at the World Trade Center in New York and the Defense Depart-ment in Washington. The attack must be condemned, and the condemnation must be without reservation.”
    Anwar Ibrahim, “Growth of Democracy Is the Answer to Terrorism,” International Herald Tribune, October 11, 2001, http://www.iht.com/articles/35281.htm

    Ziauddin Sardar, British Muslim author:
    “The failure of Islamic movements is their inability to come to terms with modernity, to give modernity a sustainable home-grown expression. Instead of engaging with the abundant problems that bedevil Muslim lives, the Islamic prescription consists of blind following of narrow pieties and slavish submission to inept obscurantists. Instead of engagement with the wider world, they have made Islam into an ethic of separation, separate under-development, and negation of the rest of the world.”
    Ziauddin Sardar, “Islam has become its own enemy,” The Observer, October 21, 2001, http://www.observer.co.uk/waronterrorism/story/0,1373,577942,00.html

    Khaled Abou El Fadl, Kuwaiti-Egyptian-American legal scholar:
    “It would be disingenuous to deny that the Qur’an and other Islamic sources offer possibilities of intolerant interpretation. Clearly these possibilities are exploited by the contemporary puritans and supremacists. But the text does not command such intolerant readings. Historically, Islamic civilization has displayed a remarkable ability to recognize possibilities of tolerance, and to act upon these possibilities.”
    Khaled Abou El Fadl, “The Place of Tolerance in Islam: On Reading the Qur’an — and Misreading It,” Boston Review, December 2001/January 2002, http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR26.6/elfadl.html

    Sheikh Muhammad Ali Al-Hanooti, Palestinian-American mufti and member of the North American Fiqh Council:
    “The people who attacked the WTC and Pentagon and hijacked the forth plane that crashed in Pennsylvania are criminal who deserve the severest punishment as the Quran elaborates. They are murderers and terrorists. If there were any person who felt happy for that incident we would not be able to equate them with those criminals, but we can say no one with faith and ethics would accept anything of that murder and targeting of innocent people.”
    Sheikh Muhammad Ali Al-Hanooti, “Fatwa Session on Latest Tragic Events,” IslamOnline, September 20, 2001, http://www.islamonline.net/livefatwa/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=pdwD2E

    Syed Shahabuddin, Indian Muslim author:
    “Islam prohibits terrorism as well as suicide. Jihad is neither and has no place for taking innocent lives or one’s own life. No cause, howsoever noble or just, can justify terrorism. So while one may sympathize with the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people and support their claim to a state of their own, while one may appreciate the democratic awakening among the people of many Muslim states and uphold their demand for withdrawal of foreign presence from their soil and support their struggle for revision of the terms of trade for their natural resources, no thinking Muslim can go along with the use of terrorism for securing political goals.”
    Syed Shahabuddin, “Global war against terrorism – the Islamic dimension,” Milli Gazette newspaper, New Delhi, India, November 1, 2001, http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01112001/34.htm

    Dr. M. A. Zaki Badawi, principal of the Muslim College, London, England:
    “Neither the law of Islam nor its ethical system justify such a crime.”
    Dr. M. A. Zaki Badawi, “Terrorism has no place in Islam,” Arab News, Jiddah-Riyadh-Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, September 28, 2001, http://www.arabnews.com/?page=5&section=0&article=9314&d=28&m=9&y=2001

    Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, head mufti at Jamiat-ul-Uloom-ul-Islamia seminary, Binori Town, Pakistan and a leader of the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam (JUI) party, Pakistan:
    “It’s wrong to kill innocent people. … It’s also wrong to praise those who kill innocent people.”
    The New York Times, September 28, 2001, p. B3

    Shaykh Omar Bakri, leader of al-Muhajirun, a radical Islamist movement based in London, England:
    “If Islamists did it — and most likely it is Islamists, because of the nature of what happened — then they have fully misunderstood the teachings of Islam. … Even the most radical of us have condemned this. I am always considered to be a radical in the Islamic world and even I condemn it.”
    The Gazette (Montreal, Quebec, Canada), September 13, 2001, p. B6

    Zuhair Qudah, a preacher at al-Lawzieen mosque, Amman, Jordan:
    “We stand by our Palestinian brothers in their struggle to end the occupation, but we don’t condone violence, ugly crimes and the killing of innocent people.”
    Associated Press, September 14, 2001

    Salih bin Muhammad Lahidan, chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia:
    “Killing the weak, infants, women, and the elderly, and destroying property, are considered serious crimes in Islam. . . . Viewing on the TV networks what happened to the twin towers . . . was like watching doomsday. Those who commit such crimes are the worst of people. Anyone who thinks that any Islamic scholar will condone such acts is totally wrong. . . . This barbaric act is not justified by any sane mind-set. . . . This act is pernicious and shameless and evil in the extreme.”
    The Washington Post, October 13, 2001, p. B9
    Shaykh Rached Ghannouchi, chairman of Tunisia’s an-Nahda Movement, in exile in London, England:
    “Such destruction can only be condemned by any Muslim, however resentful one may be of America’s biased policies supporting occupation in Palestine, as an unacceptable attack on thousands of innocent people having no relation to American policies. Anyone familiar with Islam has no doubt about its rejection of collective punishment, based on the well-known Quranic principle that ‘no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another.’”
    The Washington Post, October 13, 2001, p. B9

    Shaykh Salih al-Suhaymi, religious scholar, Saudi Arabia:
    “Based upon what has preceded, then we say that that which we believe and hold as our religion concerning what happened to the World Trade Centre in America – and in Allaah lies success – that the terrorist attacks that took place and what occurred of general (mass) killing, then it is not permissible and Islaam does not allow it in any form whatsoever.”
    “Shaykh Saalih as-Suhaymee speaks about current affairs…,” October 18, 2001, translated by Abu ‘Iyaad, http://www.fatwaonline.com/news/0011018.htm

    Dr. Sayed G. Safavi, Iranian religious scholar and director of the Institute of Islamic Studies, London, England:
    “The targeting of innocent persons cannot be allowed. Islam is against any form of terrorism, whether it be carried out by an individual, a group or a state. … For Muslims to kill civilians unconnected with any attack on them is a crime. The principal law of Islam is: don’t attack civilians. This includes civilians of any faith, whether Jewish, Muslim or Christian. According to Islam, all people are the family of God. The target of religion is peace.”
    Letter to the Editor, The Daily Telegraph, London, England, June 30, 2003, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/06/30/dt3001.xml

    Iqbal Siddiqui, editor of Crescent International, London, England:
    “History also teaches us that the only effective way of challenging oppression and the only effective way of fighting injustice is through force; that is simply the way of the world. Pacifism is all too often a weapon of the status quo…. When Islamic movements in the world do need to resort to the use of force, that force must be used morally. When extreme fringes of those movements are pushed to use force indiscriminately, immorally, wrongly against illegitimate targets, and using illegitimate weapons (such [as] hijacked jumbo jets), those are crimes for which the people who share their cause, who share their view of the world, their understanding of the need to use force, must also criticise them, turn against them, isolate them. Our standards must be higher than those of the people whom we are fighting, because if we descend to their standards then there is no difference between us.”
    Iqbal Siddiqui, “Terrorism and political violence in contemporary history,” Conference on Terrorism, Institute of Islamic Studies, London, England, November 13, 2001, published in Muslimedia International, February 16-28, 2002, http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/movement02/terror-hist.htm. Earlier version on-line at http://www.islamic-studies.org/terrorconfer.pro.htm

    Islamway website:
    “In light of these and other Islamic texts, the act of inciting terror in the hearts of defenseless civilians, the wholesale destruction of buildings and properties, the bombing and maiming of innocent men, women, and children are all forbidden and detestable acts according to Islam and the Muslims.”
    “What Does Islam Say About Terrorism?” http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=article&id=126

    Islamic Commission of Spain:
    “Muslims, therefore, are not only forbidden from committing crimes against innocent people, but are responsible before God to stop those people who have the intention to do so, since these people ‘are planting the seeds of corruption on Earth’…. The perpetration of terrorist acts supposes a rupture of such magnitude with Islamic teaching that it allows to affirm that the individuals or groups who have perpetrated them have stopped being Muslim and have put themselves outside the sphere of Islam.”
    “Text of the Fatwa Declared Against Osama Bin Laden by the Islamic Commission of Spain,” March 17, 2005, http://webislam.com/?idn=537; original Spanish version: “La Comisión Islámica de España emite una fatua condenando el terrorismo y al grupo Al Qaida,” March 10, 2005, http://www.webislam.com/?idn=399.

    Fatwa signed by more than 500 British Muslim scholars, clerics, and imams:
    “Islam strictly, strongly and severely condemns the use of violence and the destruction of innocent lives. There is neither place nor justification in Islam for extremism, fanaticism or terrorism. Suicide bombings, which killed and injured innocent people in London, are HARAAM – vehemently prohibited in Islam, and those who committed these barbaric acts in London [on July 7, 2005] are criminals not martyrs. Such acts, as perpetrated in London, are crimes against all of humanity and contrary to the teachings of Islam. … The Holy Quran declares: ‘Whoever kills a human being… then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.’ (Quran, Surah al-Maidah (5), verse 32) Islam’s position is clear and unequivocal: Murder of one soul is the murder of the whole of humanity; he who shows no respect for human life is an enemy of humanity.”
    British Muslim Forum, press release of July 18, 2005, http://www.britishmuslimforum.org/view_press_release.php?id=26.
    Fiqh Council of North America, an association of 18 Muslim legal scholars, fatwa endorsed by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), the Muslim American Society (MAS), the Association of Muslim Social Scientists (AMSS), the Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers (AMSE), the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), and more than 130 Muslim organizations, mosques and leaders in the United States:
    “We have consistently condemned terrorism and extremism in all forms and under all circumstances, and we reiterate this unequivocal position. Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians’ life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram – prohibited in Islam – and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not ‘martyrs.'”
    “Fatwa by U.S. Muslims Against Religious Extremism,” July 25, 2005, http://www.mpac.org/bucket_downloads/fatwa-on-terrorism.pdf.
    Islamic Society of North America, Anti-Terrrorism Anti-Extremism Committee:
    “Humanity lives today in an interdependent and interconnected world where peaceful and fair interaction, including interfaith and intra-faith dialogue, is imperative. A grave threat to all of us nowadays is the scourge of religious and political extremism that manifests itself in various forms of violence, including terrorism. In the absence of a universally agreed upon definition of terrorism, it may be defined as any act of indiscriminate violence that targets innocent people, whether committed by individuals, groups or states. As Muslims, we must face up to our responsibility to clarify and advocate a faith-based, righteous and moral position with regard to this problem, especially when terrorist acts are perpetrated in the name of Islam. The purpose of this brochure is to clarify a few key issues relating to this topic, not because of external pressures or for the sake of “political correctness”, but out of our sincere conviction of what Islam stands for.”
    Islamic Society of North America, “Against Terrorism and Religious Extremism: Muslim Position and Responsibilities,” 2005, http://www.balancedislam.org/ATAECbrochure.pdf.
    Shaykh Abdulaziz Al-Asheikh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
    The London attacks, “targeting peaceful people, are not condoned by Islam, and are indeed prohibited by our religion. … Attributing to Islam acts of individual or collective killings, bombings, destruction of properties and the terrorizing of peaceful people is unfair, because they are alien to the divine religion.”
    Fatwa-Online, July 9, 2005, http://www.fatwa-online.com/news/0050709.htm
    Shaykh Muhammad ibn Abdul-Wahhaab al-‘Aqeel, professor of creed (‘aqeedah) at the College of Proselytising (da’wah), Islamic University of Madinah, Saudi Arabia:
    “Terrorism is the terror that is caused by those groups or individuals who resort to killing and wreaking havoc and destruction. Terrorism is therefore, according to the contemporary compilers of modern Arabic dictionaries, killing akin to the riotous killing that is mentioned within the texts of Shar’eeah. As the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wassallam) mentioned with regards to the signs of the end of time, the spread of ‘al-Harj’ (riotous killing). The meaning of ‘al-Harj’ is killing and the increase of the spilling blood, which is all from the signs of the end of time. To the extent that the one killing will not know why he is killing and the one that was killed will not know why he/she was killed. Islam is free from this riotous killing, free from this terrorism and free from this kind of corruption. Terrorism is established upon destruction of properties such as factories, farms, places of worship, train stations, airports and the likes; Islam is clearly free from such actions that are based upon corruption and not upon rectification. Terrorists usually say that they are going against the state in which they are based within. This is like the mafia or other criminal organisations that are based on killing people, causing fear and taking their monies. Such criminal organisations have leaders, deputies and individuals that are responsible for establishing regulations for the organisation and individuals responsible for carrying out attacks, and all of them are terrorists causing corruption on the earth. However the ugliest face of terrorism is that which is established in the name of religion, all of the religions from the Prophets (peace be upon them) are free from such terrorism, even if some of the followers of the Prophets participated in such terrorist activities, but the Prophets are free from such corruptions.”
    Lecture on “The Evils of Terrorism,” August 20, 2005, translated in Islam Against Terrorism – v1.20, September 17, 2005, http://www.fatwa-online.com/downloads/dow004/islamagainstterrorism.chm
    Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti, Malaysian Muslim scholar and research fellow in Islamic philosophy and theology, Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, U.K.:
    “If you still insist that your [religious or civil] authority should declare war with the non-Muslim state upon which you wish war to be declared, then the most you could do in this capacity is to lobby your authority for it. However, if your anger is so unrestrained that its fire brings out the worst in you to the point that your disagreement with your Muslim authority leads you to declare war on those you want your authority to declare war on, and you end up resorting to violence, then know with certainty that you have violated our own religious Laws. For then you will have taken the Shari’a into your own hands.”
    Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti, Defending the Transgressed by Censuring the Reckless against the Killing of Civilians, Germany: Warda Publications, and United Kingdom: Aqsa Press, 2005, p.49, http://www.warda.info/fatwa.pdf

    Abd al-Hakim Murad, British Muslim scholar:
    “This is a decadence that is profound. And that it happens in the holy land is particularly worrying. Near the muqadsāt, where we are particularly required to conform entirely to the adāb of the Shari’ah. This is a deep subversion. And as for those who think that for reasons of masfahah that the door can be opened there, but somehow that door will remain closed elsewhere in the world, that this door can be opened because the Palestinians are so oppressed and somehow it’s going to help them, but of course we keep it closed in Chechnya and Kahsmir and certainly in London, that logic doesn’t seem to have worked too well. That rage, that desire to self annihilation, to lash out and the men, women and children, whoever in the vicinity, is now becoming a global epidemic. And the ‘ulama who opened the little door now see these legions rushing through it in every place don’t know what to do about it. That door has to be closed. Islam is too good for such practices, for such baseness, for such wild expression of futility and despair and vindictiveness.”
    Interview, December 16-18, 2005, London-Leeds-Manchester, http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=45
    Islamic Society of North America:
    “The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) condemns in the strongest terms the recent acts of terrorism in Glasgow, London and Yemen. We reaffirm our long-standing, unqualified condemnation of all acts of terrorism and all acts of violence committed against the innocent, and our denunciation of religious extremism and particularly the use of Islam to justify terrorism in any of its forms*. We sympathize with the victims of these senseless attacks and offer our heart-felt condolences to the families who have lost their dear ones.”
    Islamic Society of North America Statement in Response to Recent Bombings, July 10, 2007, http://www.isna.net/index.php?id=35&backPID=1&tt_news=884

    Maulana Marghubur Rahman, organizer of “Anti-Terrorism Convention” and rector of the Dar ul-Ulum Deoband madrasa, India:
    “We condemn all forms of terrorism … and in this we make no distinction. Terrorism is completely wrong, no matter who engages in it, and no matter what religion he follows or community he belongs to.”
    February 2008, translated by Yoginder Sikand, http://www.twocircles.net/2008mar11/deobands_anti_terrorism_convention_some_reflections.html

    See also:

    Bernard Haykel, assistant professor of Islamic law at New York University:
    “According to Islamic law there are at least six reasons why Bin Laden’s barbaric violence cannot fall under the rubric of jihad: 1) Individuals and organizations cannot declare a jihad, only states can; 2) One cannot kill innocent women and children when conducting a jihad; 3) One cannot kill Muslims in a jihad; 4) One cannot fight a jihad against a country in which Muslims can freely practise their religion and proselytize Islam; 5) Prominent Muslim jurists around the world have condemned these attacks and their condemnation forms a juristic consensus (ijma’) against Bin Laden’s actions (This consensus renders his actions un-Islamic); 6) The welfare and interest of the Muslim community (maslaha) is being harmed by Bin Laden’s actions and this equally makes them un-Islamic.”
    The Dawn newspaper, Karachi, Pakistan, October 8, 2001, http://www.dawn.com/2001/10/08/op.htm#2

    See other collections of statements:

    Sheila Musaji, “Muslims Denounce Terrorism: Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism,” http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_2

    Omid Safi, “Scholars of Islam & the Tragedy of Sept. 11th,” http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

    Tim Lubin, Washington and Lee University, “Islamic Responses to the Sept. 11 Attack,” http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint/islamonWTC.htm

    The Becket Fund, “Osama Bin Laden Hijacked Four Airplanes and a Religion,” October 17, 2001, http://www.becketfund.org/other/MuslimAd.html

    Islam for Today, “Muslims Against Terrorism,” http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

    ReligiousTolerance.org, “Aftermath of the 9-11 Terrorist Attack: Voices of Moderate Muslims,” http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter16.htm

    Al-Muhajabah’s Islamic Pages, “Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks,” http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
    Islamic Stand on Terrorism: An International Conference, Al-Imam Muhammad Ibn Saud Islamic University, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, 20-22 April 2004, http://www.islamstand.org/english/abaakail.htm
    Juan Cole, “Friedman Wrong About Muslims Again,” July 9, 2005, http://www.juancole.com/2005/07/friedman-wrong-about-muslims-again-and.html
    Fatwa-Online, “Worship \ Jihaad \ WTC – New York, USA – 9/11,” http://www.fatwa-online.com/worship/jihaad/jih007/index.htm

    Fatwa-Online, “Worship \ Jihaad \ Suicide Bombings,” http://www.fatwa-online.com/worship/jihaad/jih004/index.htm

    Hax Vobiscum (edacf7)

  174. He is well educated, drives a nice car, is a white collar worker, lives in the United States, doesn’t have anything on his head or a bruised forehead from banging it on the floor to Allah and doesn’t (at least publicly) advocate the imposition of Sharia law. I haven’t personally seen him attempt to blow up anything.

    Even the “low” percentage of Muslims who admitted that they believe in suicide bombing (I don’t know the veracity of the site, I just Googled it.) in the United States supposedly comes out to something like 300,000 people. That is a large number. Too large of a number to discount even if it is a small percentage.

    Tanny O'Haley (868d50)

  175. Tanny: you are certainly correct that radical Muslims pose a security threat, not only in the United States, but even more so in Muslim countries.

    That is the biggest reason it’s crucial not to confuse the tiny minority of Muslims who support terrorism with the vast majority who do not. Muslims who oppose terrorism are a most important allies in this battle, and to the extent that we try to define them out of existence, or demean their struggle, or brand them as part of the problem, we diminish their ability to help win the war.

    As for your bigoted co-worker’s demographic status, all I can say is that bigots come in all income brackets, drive all sorts of cars and wear all kinds of collars.

    I wonder what you make of the anti-Muslim bigotry spread around this Web site. Does it offend you?

    Hax Vobiscum (edacf7)

  176. Islam is the worst scourge that has befallen the human race. It has to be exposed for what it truly is. It is Satanic, evil, blind and dangerous. To treat it like most folks do, as if it is just another religion will be making the worst mistake of our lives. Islam is the greatest threat to civilization. Those who practise it are deceived and brainwashed. They do not know what they are doing. They need to be rescued from this insidious lie that has crippled their ability to think. They are not the enemy. They are slaves to an ideological demon whose mission is to steal, kill and destroy. May we not wake up too late.

    Emperor7 (0c8c2c)

  177. That is the biggest reason it’s crucial not to confuse the tiny minority of Muslims who support terrorism with the vast majority who do not.

    What are the percentages on that, Hacks, and where did you get them?

    This is proof beyond reasonable doubt here that the commenters who say these protests don’t happen are deeply, willfully ignorant of the region and its politics and current events.

    The Mumbai one is the sort of thing I’m looking for. But it appears to be a couple dozen people. I fully support the intent, and it’s not at all surprising after the attacks on Mumbai, but it doesn’t appear to be more than a couple dozen people in a city of what, 14 million?

    Muslims who oppose terrorism are a most important allies in this battle, and to the extent that we try to define them out of existence, or demean their struggle, or brand them as part of the problem, we diminish their ability to help win the war.

    When we define them out of existence? Like pretending that Iraq wasn’t full of them and was therefore a lost cause that we should abandon?

    Who was it that had faith in millions of Muslims and took enormous risk to support them in their quest to create a terror-free Iraq? And who was it that wanted to abandon them? Which side were you on, Hacks?

    Pablo (99243e)

  178. As for Pakistan,

    Meanwhile, al Qaeda has a 43 percent approval rate; the Taliban has a 38 percent approval rate; and local radical extremist groups had an approval rating between 37 percent to 49 percent.

    Is that a tiny minority, Hacks?

    Pablo (99243e)

  179. I wonder what you make of the anti-Muslim bigotry spread around this Web site. Does it offend you?

    I’m certain she forgives you for not wanting to support the moderate Muslims in their fight against the extremists.

    Rob Crawford (04f50f)

  180. “I wonder what you make of the anti-Muslim bigotry spread around this Web site. Does it offend you?”

    This was especially rich coming from the commenter who ducked the part of the post and thread about domestic violence for virtually the entire time. He virtually ignored the free speech issues involved in Wilders’ denial of entry to the U.K. amd its implications for the U.S. It almost seems as if he’s never heard of the term “sharia creep” and the creation of a new right not to be offended in the United States, yet the commenters here are bigots. I suppose if you’re closed minded anybody can be considered a bigot. We’re probably homophobes too.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  181. Daley, don’t talk about JD that way.

    Anyway, this guy HV has his viewpoint that will never be dented.

    I want to see more Muslims speaking out against terrorism against Western nations. Hopefully we will begin to see it, but the record is not good.

    Eric Blair (ec334b)

  182. Willful dishonesty, Hack, that’s all we are getting from you.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  183. Eric – I have to give JD some credit because he is willing to don a pair of Depends to prevent his diarrhea from leaking all over the place. Hax just dribbles loose shit everywhere.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  184. hey SPQR, it came up the other day amongst some friends what “SPQR” exactly means…

    Care to share? :)

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  185. I believe he means this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPQR

    There is also a great series by John Maddox Roberts about a “detective” during the time of the Roman Republic:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPQR_series

    Great reading.

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  186. It was an acronym for “The Senate and the People of Rome” – the source of soverignty of the Roman Republic as Eric notes.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  187. Those were the days, in many ways, SPQR.

    Until the Republic fell….

    Eric Blair (57b266)

  188. Tanny,
    A few days after 9/11 I went to the Red cross to donate blood, like a lot of people. The place was packed. One man, dressed and looking like an average American businessman spoke up loudly that he was donating because as an American Muslim he felt he had to support our cause. Then came the big BUT. “BUT, they have to do something about Israel, the Jews! That’s underlying everything!” No one said anything. We were too stunned. Eventually he shut up, but it was eye-opening.

    Patricia (89cb84)

  189. Yes, Patricia, but he wasn’t a True Scotsman

    Steverino (69d941)

  190. Comment by Eric Blair — 2/16/2009 @ 6:59 am

    While reading this and your re to JD, I hear El Rushbo state with great mirth, that everything BHO says has an expiration date:
    Great minds, etc., and now JD will be really insufferable.

    AD - RtR/OS (7b59fd)

  191. Hax, again I’ll repeat my question from upthread #102, as I am supposing your definition of a moderate is opposition to that of most commenters here. This thread points out how difficult it is to debate if the definitions are not clearly defined – or are in flux.

    Comment by Dana — 2/15/2009 @ 12:41 pm
    perhaps a definition of terms is in order: Exactly what is your definition of a moderate Muslim? Please be specific.

    Dana (137151)

  192. …is in opposition…
    …if the terms are not clearly defined…
    sigh.

    Dana (137151)

  193. Riiiight, steverino…

    Patricia (89cb84)

  194. “Who was it that had faith in millions of Muslims and took enormous risk to support them in their quest to create a terror-free Iraq? ”

    Very good question, Pablo.
    That would be me and the many people around the world who opposed the invasion of Iraq because we knew it would increase, rather than decrease the sway of Islamic radicals in the country and the region.
    Iraq was virtually terror-free before the invasion and had a long history of rejecting both radical Shiism and the Salafist variety of fake religious gangsterism. To be sure, the Saddam regime was involved in supporting some movements that engaged in terror, just as the U.S. has from time to time.
    The Iraqi regime was almost unfathomably brutal, but it was not involved substantially in terrorism and was geopolitically aligned against both Iran and Saudi Arabia, the dual political hubs of radical Islam.
    Cheney and Bush felt they could not trust the Iraqi people to get rid of Saddam on their own. More important, they presented the ludicrous case that Saddam’s regime was involved with al Qaeda. They also exaggerated the evidence that the regime had WMD and flat-out lied by saying they were “certain” that the WMD were there, even though the inspectors had not concluded that and some analysts within and outside the intelligence community doubted whether they were there.

    Because Cheney and his ilk had so little faith in the Iraqi people to control their own affairs, they argued that it was necessary to kill hundreds of thousands of them to get rid of Saddam.

    Now almost six years later, Iran operates a powerful mini-puppet state of mullahs in southern Iran, Kurdistan is nominally independent and still fighting a hot- and cold- war against the Baghdad government and al Qaeda remains a force in a country where it never existed, other than as a tiny clandestine cell far outside the government’s reach.

    More important, the invasion allowed al Qaeda in Iraq to expand to the point where the only strategy left to the U.S. was to appease the Sunni militia who started the insurgency and had the blood of our soldiers on their hands. We are to this day paying these people to rout al Qaeda, a force Cheney still to this day argues they were aligned with BEFORE the invasion.

    The Baghdad government has said it opposes the U.S. policy of putting these “former terrorists” on their payroll and, presumably, it has either ended or soon will. I wonder if Pablo considers this “abandoning” the Iraqi people?

    Hax Vobiscum (edacf7)

  195. An aggressively dishonest Hack. Period. End of discussion. Hundreds of thousands? No connections to AQ? This is simply a verbose version of classical BDS.

    AD – He must read my comments here. I first said, many months ago, shprtly after the Philly primary debate, that The One’s words cease having any meaning the moment they pass over his lips. It took everyone else long enough to figure it out 😉

    JD (a69124)

  196. Comment by Hax Vobiscum — 2/16/2009 @ 1:58 pm

    Putz!

    AD - RtR/OS (be6a2d)

  197. Comment by JD — 2/16/2009 @ 2:26 pm

    Youse da Man!

    AD - RtR/OS (be6a2d)

  198. Hax
    The Iraqi regime was almost unfathomably brutal, but it was not involved substantially in terrorism and was geopolitically aligned against both Iran and Saudi Arabia, the dual political hubs of radical Islam.

    Would you consider paying $25,000 to families of suicide bombers and praising their actions “substantial”?

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R., who implores DRJ to remain at Patterico! (0d7901)

  199. The only true terrorists in the mind of Hax’s are of the American variety.

    ML (14488c)

  200. That would be me and the many people around the world who opposed the invasion of Iraq because we knew it would increase, rather than decrease the sway of Islamic radicals in the country and the region.

    One, this doesn’t answer the question. Two, you’re wrong. Nicely done, Hacks.

    Pablo (99243e)

  201. Pablo – I remember a lot of griping about Iraq never did anything to us and preemptive strikes are wrong bullshit, but I can’t recall reading people warning about the rise of Islamic radicalism in Iraq as a consequence of removing Saddam. Contemporaneous citations would be nice, ’cause Monday morning quarterbacking is so easy.

    Then again, Hax slips easily over the 12 years of Saddam’s noncompliance with the terms of the 1991 Cease Fire, noncompliance with the terms of more than than a dozen U.N. Resolutions, the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who died under his regime, the fraud and mismanagement of the U.N. Oil for Food Program, and the list goes on.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  202. kind of like a cartoon during WW II by DR SUSE which shows some guy surrounded by this multiheaded creature he is saying ANOTHER LOLYPOP AND WE CAN ALL GO HOME the guy is marked THE APPEASERS

    Krazy Kagu (487fee)


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