Patterico's Pontifications

2/2/2009

Obama on Meddling in Foreign Affairs: Then and Now

Filed under: General,Obama — Patterico @ 7:06 pm



Barack Obama, January 5, 2009:

“I will continue to insist that, when it comes to foreign affairs, it is particularly important to emphasize that there is one president at a time,” Obama said Monday. “There are delicate negotiations taking place right now and we can’t have two voices coming out of the United States when you have so much at stake.”

February 2, 2009:

US President Barack Obama has already used experts within the last few months to hold high-level but discreet talks with both Iran and Syria, organizers of the meetings told AFP.

198 Responses to “Obama on Meddling in Foreign Affairs: Then and Now”

  1. Well, its not the first time Obama flat out lied to us and it won’t be the last.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  2. C’mon SPQR. That was then. This is now.

    Nuance!

    Eric Blair (53ab22)

  3. No, brazen lying is not nuance.

    But its amusing trying to watch the Obama cultists try to ignore it.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  4. It makes perfect sense, so long as you abandon the premise that it was the President’s voice that should have been coming out of the US.

    Karl (2491e1)

  5. This muddling, buffoonish amateur is going to get us all killed.

    MJN1957 (6e1275)

  6. SPQR, I completely agree. But you will be hearing, over and over again, that it isn’t lying.

    And when pushed, you will then hear that everyone does it, and that the Republicans did it worse.

    Sigh.

    Hope and Change, indeed.

    How about that Tom Daschle’s quote about tax enforcement?

    Or the business about lobbyists?

    It’s always different to the MSM when there is a “D” after the person’s name.

    Eric Blair (53ab22)

  7. This type of conduct is completely acceptable since his intentions are so pure, unlike the devious machinations of the NeoCons and Rethuglicans.

    Good thing for him that the Dems control Congress, or we would have to have a full-scale investigation of this iteration of the “October Surprise”.

    Now we know what Sloe-Joe was doing on his Senatorial “fact-finding” trip. That he helped give cover for this farce should shame Lindsay Graham no end, if he was capable of shame, that is.

    AD (b72706)

  8. par for the course. Well, i guess israel might truely be on her own

    slizzle (4c3b4d)

  9. Why be surprised; you know that Obama is lying if (a) his lips are moving; and (b) it’s more convenient at the time to tell a lie than to tell the truth. He has more “inoperative statements” than a Ron Ziegler press secretary performance for Richard Nixon.

    Mike Myers (674050)

  10. What is really bizarre is that Obama supporters hope he is is telling the truth and opponents are hoping he’s lying. In both cases, they are hoping what they are for the good of the country.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  11. Eh, cut him some slack, only fools believed his earlier quote.

    From the minute he was picked he was conducting policy.

    Obama über alles!!!!! (48dd5e)

  12. “Eh, cut him some slack, only fools believed his earlier quote.”

    OuA – Presumably you are referring to the media and the fools that voted for him, largely overlapping groups.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  13. A little inconsistency will keep them wondering and on edge. Not a bad thing. Brian Marchant-Calsyn

    Brian Marchant-Calsyn (260ded)

  14. I am not surprised he says one thing and does another.

    I am worried that he is so lost about the state of communication in the world. Did he really believe that we wouldn’t find out about the secret meetings?

    tyree (ad0b00)

  15. But being always inconsistent makes you very predictable ….

    htom (412a17)

  16. I’m tempted to cut him some slack on this one. But just some. It’s one thing for, say, Jimmy Carter to go playing President now; it’s another thing for the actual PEOTUS to use unofficial/official emissaries, acting at his direction, to engage in some quiet negotiation, and it’s not like there was any reason to believe that there were pending negotiations with Iran and Syria that would otherwise have borne fruit between the election and the inauguration.

    Joel Rosenberg (677e59)

  17. don’t you realize he’s not honest? why should you have any faith in what he says?? he is a class 1 liar!

    ktr (40579a)

  18. It’s one thing for, say, Jimmy Carter to go playing President now; it’s another thing for the actual PEOTUS to use unofficial/official emissaries, acting at his direction, to engage in some quiet negotiation, and it’s not like there was any reason to believe that there were pending negotiations with Iran and Syria that would otherwise have borne fruit between the election and the inauguration.

    Thing is, Joel, this goes back before the election.

    However, even before winning the November 4 election, Obama unofficially used what experts call “track two” discussions to approach America’s two foes in the region.

    And here’s more:

    The Arab daily Al-Hayat on Tuesday quoted a senior Hamas official as saying that United States President-elect Barack Obama’s advisors met with members of the Palestinian militant group before the U.S. presidential election.

    Ahmed Yusuf, a political advisor to Hamas’ Gaza leader Ismail Haniyeh, reportedly told the London-based paper that, “The connection was made via email and after that we met with them in Gaza.”

    Al-Hayat reported that Yusuf also said the relations were maintained after Obama’s electoral victory last Tuesday. He said the president-elect’s advisors requested that the relations be kept secret so as not to aid his rival, Senator John McCain.

    And who is making these Syria and Iran contacts? Robert Malley, as early as August ’08. Yes, the same Robert Malley that supposedly got thrown under the wheels of the Hopenchange Express back in May of ’08 for having held meetings with Hamas.

    One of the Obama campaign’s informal Middle East advisers, Robert Malley, confirms to NBC NEWS that he has resigned from any role in the campaign because critics have tried to make an issue of his meetings with Hamas. The Times of London called him about it this morning, and has posted a story online. As a result, he called Obama’s campaign today and took himself out of any future role.

    Yes, that Robert Malley. Change you can believe in.

    Pablo (99243e)

  19. There is a big difference between Hope and Change. Therein lies the mystery of Barack Obama. :)

    Emperor7 who wants DRJ back! (1b037c)

  20. Yes, first you HOPE no one finds out about stuff like this and if they do, then you CHANGE your tune. Big difference between the two.

    Pablo (99243e)

  21. So, the Logan Act is dead letter, apparently?

    Techie (6b5d8d)

  22. Does anyone know what “to work together as a nation” would imply? For me, all of the complaining, whining, and general HATE that people have is taking what the above indicates and throwing out the window as if it were trash.

    Jackie Rath Arnold (c872bc)

  23. “To work together as a nation” means to scream and shout, kick and bite when a Republican is POTUS but kowtow silently when a Democrat is POTUS.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  24. Shorter Jackie : Submit, bitches!

    JD (55d896)

  25. You are a very sad little man.

    Jackie Rath Arnold (c872bc)

  26. Jackie, the Democrats and MSM were, for the last 8 years, in full-blown attack mode, doing their best to bring down all Republicans and they were not concerned about what their actions were doing to this great country.

    Now that the Democrats are in power, the Democrats and MSM are trying to shout down any dissent, all in this “can’t we all just get along” act of supremacy. Conservatives will speak up and loudly when liberals are being disingenuous or working to bring socialism to this great country. And why will conservatives, and many moderates, speak up? Because we love our country and don’t want to see it go down the crapper.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  27. Does anyone know what “to work together as a nation” would imply? For me, all of the complaining, whining, and general HATE that people have is taking what the above indicates and throwing out the window as if it were trash.

    It’s kind of funny how Democrats, having spent the last 8 years digging their heels in, carping at Bush at every opportunity, and in general not “working together as a nation” now have seen the light and want everyone to work together.

    There’s nothing wrong with Republicans opposing Obama, jackie. In fact, according to Democrats, dissent is the highest form of patriotism. But I promise you one thing: Republicans will never wish for the enemies of America to succeed in order for our politcal opponents to look bad.

    Steverino (69d941)

  28. Shhh…don’t wake Jackie up from her blissful existence. It’s why cults are so popular among the weak – minded.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  29. I denounce you, and condemn you, Jackie.

    JD (55d896)

  30. Dissent is the highest from of patriotism, Jackie.

    Not in Our Name.

    Techie (6b5d8d)

  31. I have a feeling Jackie may not have been here before. I may be mistaken.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  32. The Arab daily Al-Hayat on Tuesday quoted a senior Hamas official as saying that United States President-elect Barack Obama’s advisors met with members of the Palestinian militant group before the U.S. presidential election.

    They were meeting to explain that they had disabled the credit card security checks so Hamas and their sponsors could now safely contribute to Obama’s campaign and no one would ever be the wiser.

    Mike K (f89cb3)

  33. Can’t we all just get along ?!

    JD (55d896)

  34. Mike K, with all those fictitious names, businesses, towns attached to internet donations, your statement somehow has a tinge of plausibility.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  35. I say impeach him now. And impeach Reagan too for talking to the Iranians before he was inaugurated and Nixon for meeting with the North Vietnamese in 1968.

    timb (a83d56)

  36. You have all been blessed by the glorious musings of the timmah.

    JD (55d896)

  37. Daleyrocks #12,

    Yes, only idiots who voted for his package of shit wrapped in gold paper actually believed his earlier BS …..

    …. because no person ever in a position of power would sit back for two months and let the deposed power run the show.

    Gimme a break. I won, GTF out of my face would be my attitude.

    Obama über alles!!!!! (48dd5e)

  38. If a strawman falls down in Timmah’s room, does anyone hear it?

    Dmac (49b16c)

  39. Newp, the strawman would never hit the floor before it got devoured.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  40. You like how timmah is now repeating long discredited Gary Sick fantasies too.

    Bizarre.

    SPQR (72771e)

  41. #34 Good Point timb, but I’m guessing coments here are using the “strawman” defense concerning President Reagan, because they assume he never told us “one president at a time” (probably true).

    Good point Anti-Strawmen.

    Is that the beef here with Obama though Anti-obamites? Do you feel you were lied to?

    Thanks for the article link Patterico from Jan. 05, 2009.

    If you read the sentence before the one posted here it reads:

    But on Gaza – with Israel’s ground invasion in its third day – Obama remains mum.

    This tells me he was referring to the Palestinians, not Iran or Syria.

    I could be wrong on that though.

    But having said that, honestly were there “two voices” coming out of the United States prior to Jan. 20th?

    Oiram (983921)

  42. But on Gaza – with Israel’s ground invasion in its third day – Obama remains mum.

    And in the US, on this day – Oiram remains obtuse.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  43. JD – Re: can’t we all just get along?

    Can’t I just finish my waffle?

    carlitos (931f72)

  44. “But having said that, honestly were there “two voices” coming out of the United States prior to Jan. 20th?”

    Oiram – Give us the transcripts of Team O’s conversations with Hamas and Iran to review and we’ll let you know, MKAY?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  45. “Is that the beef here with Obama though Anti-obamites? Do you feel you were lied to?”

    Oiram – You’re good at making stuff up as you go along, why don’t you decide what the beef is?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  46. Timmah and Oiram – intellectuals who hang out at the Slurpee machine.

    Dmac (49b16c)

  47. carlitos, quoted Obama from April 2008:

    Can’t I just finish my waffle?

    Looks like we’re in for four years of waffling.

    L.N. Smithee (b8ac14)

  48. Let’s be fair, folks. He said “There’s only one PRESIDENT at a time.” He was the President-ELECT. And as we all now know, the President-elect has his own official office, his own government website, his own official government seal and everything. It’s just that nobody bothered to do all that stuff before.

    I mean, that’s gotta be the truth. He’s a Constitutional lawyuh. He wouldn’t take advantage of the fact that people would be reluctant to get in his face about it. Right?

    L.N. Smithee (b8ac14)

  49. Timmah and Oiram – intellectuals who hang out at the Slurpee machine.

    Why would they do that?
    Didn’t they get the memo on the debunking of the “intelligence through osmossis” theory?

    AD (8486ab)

  50. Dmac #45: you know, that one goes all kinds of places that none of us want to think about.

    NTTAWWT.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  51. Eric, I’ve lived in S.F. all my life, and while I have seen and heard (but never entered) many luridly named wink-and-nod drinking establishments and (ahem) clubs, “The Slurpee Machine” is not one of them.

    L.N. Smithee (b8ac14)

  52. Thank God, Smithee. Thank God. But you have to admit, it does sound like such an establishment.

    JD, I preemptively denounce myself.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  53. This looks like one of those “Let me spell it out for you in words of one syllable”, Mr. Conservative Nitpicker.

    Maybe your friends ought to pay attention, too.

    On Jan. 5, we had a President and a President-elect. The President takes precedence (oops, there’s more than one syllable there!) over the P-E in foreign affairs. One Pres, one voice. Got that?

    Then on Feb. 2, he’s DELEGATED EXPERTS to talk to Iran and Syria. A President can do that, can’t he? He doesn’t have to do all the talking HIMSELF, does he? He can ask a trusted expert to be his avatar for specific diplomatic duties that don’t involve DECISION-MAKING, can’t he?

    Why are you conservatives so intentionally stupid, sometimes?

    Oh, sorry…I didn’t realize it wasn’t intentional.

    KarenJ (75348a)

  54. Back when I lived in the neighborhood known locally as “Boy’s Town,” a local establishment was called “The Man Hole.” Subtle, eh?

    Dmac (49b16c)

  55. Aw, c’mon, KarenJ. You know better than that. You read the actual articles, right?

    Or is this just more trolling? I mean, I’m not calling you stupid, am I?

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  56. Why are you conservatives so intentionally stupid, sometimes?

    Why do drive – by Trolls always miss the intentional IRONY in the posts here? Did you even spend more than one minute here before you decided to open your mouth and make sure we understood your true level of intelligence? I also note your brilliant and witty repartee, particularly in your “stoopid” comment. Are you still in 6th grade, sweetheart?

    Dmac (49b16c)

  57. Karen J – I always find it incredibly enjoyable, and just brimming with irony, when a Leftist drops by to declare their moral and intellectual superiority, and at the same time, they are unable to follow a pretty clear timeline laid out.

    February 2, 2009:

    US President Barack Obama has already used experts within the last few months to hold high-level but discreet talks with both Iran and Syria, organizers of the meetings told AFP.

    I know simple English is a problem for you, but damn.

    That does not even count the fact that you intentionally overlooked the timeline in the comments above that documented that his campaign has been doing this for quite some time.

    But, I will give you credit for servicing Teh Narrative. Good work. A loyal foot soldier you are.

    JD (5535b9)

  58. Great minds think alike, folks. Great minds.

    KarenJ – in case you are wondering, I am not including you in that group.

    JD (5535b9)

  59. But JD, Karen makes a good argument via her constant usage of BOLD STATEMENTS AND INANE ASSUMPTIONS, because her grammar teacher told her they help her make her points better!

    Dmac (49b16c)

  60. OH GOOD ALLAH MAKE THE ALL CAPS STOP !!!!!!!!!!!

    JD (5535b9)

  61. Do you think Karen knows Oiram? Neither of them can understand why people are upset.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  62. Totally. I doubt those expert contacts clearly identified themselves as not the voice of the US.

    imdw (a87919)

  63. We can add imdw to the list of serial mendoucheous trolls.

    JD (a6482e)

  64. Can we expect anything else from experts?

    imdw (c990d8)

  65. Then on Feb. 2, he’s DELEGATED EXPERTS to talk to Iran and Syria.

    Syria and Iran in August of ’08. That would be before he was elected. Hamas in May of ’08, before he was nominated. You could scoll up to my #18, Karen, and click the links and then read a little. That is if it wouldn’t upset your view of things too much.

    Pablo (99243e)

  66. Can we expect anything else from experts?

    Aside from tax problems?

    Pablo (99243e)

  67. According to this post on Powerline, Obama has been negotiating a surrender to Al Queda as well.

    So much for his campaign promise to do a better job of prosecuting the war in Afghanistan.

    Is there any campaign promise that is not “inoperative” already?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  68. SPQR – You know damn good and well that Teh One’s rhetoric ceases having any meaning the moment it passes over his lips.

    JD (a6482e)

  69. I really don’t see a problem with senators, or even private citizens, talking to foreign entities. So long as they’re not speaking for the US, of course.

    imdw (e66d8d)

  70. imdw, you seem to have missed the fact that Obama saw a problem with it … and said he wouldn’t do it. Then did it.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  71. Shocka!

    JD (a6482e)

  72. JD, you ever get the impression that the only people paying attention to what Obama actually said were his opponents?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  73. Surely, Obama’s people, like Robert Malley, were speaking for the people of Illinois and not for the US.

    Pablo (99243e)

  74. “imdw, you seem to have missed the fact that Obama saw a problem with it … and said he wouldn’t do it”

    There is a problem with more than one voice coming from the US. But people not speaking for hte US government aren’t a problem.

    imdw (95ebda)

  75. It is totally fine if US politicians speak to foreign entities while speaking on behalf of Sierra Leone, imdw.

    JD (5535b9)

  76. The problem is not that someone is not speaking for the Government, it is that the listener perceives the speaker as speaking for the Government, even when they are not.
    It is the perception that is the problem, just like Caesar’s wife.

    AD (8486ab)

  77. But people not speaking for hte US government aren’t a problem.

    And surely, Senator Obama’s people weren’t speaking for the US in any way, shape or form.

    Baracky’s pure, this I know, because Pocket Obama tells me so.

    Pablo (99243e)

  78. And surely, Senator Obama’s people weren’t speaking for the US in any way, shape or form.

    It is comforting to know that Baracky was not speaking on behalf of the United States when he was talking to these people. Especially Hamas.

    JD (5535b9)

  79. “It is totally fine if US politicians speak to foreign entities while speaking on behalf of Sierra Leone, imdw”

    Or on behalf of themselves. Probably even on behalf of their positions. Are senators ratifying treaties, or regulating foreign trade, supposed to do that without foreign contacts?

    “And surely, Senator Obama’s people weren’t speaking for the US in any way, shape or form. ”

    like i said:

    “I doubt those expert contacts clearly identified themselves as not the voice of the US.”

    imdw (3bf1a8)

  80. Clearly, it was understood that Baracky’s people were speaking on behalf of everyone except for the United States.

    The Logan Act might be one of the most useless laws ever enacted.

    JD (5535b9)

  81. But the Pugwash dialogue was not a government-to-government dialogue, people involved make clear, and was neither initiated by the Bush or Obama administrations, nor the Iranian government, although it did involve at least two currently serving Iranian officials: Iran’s ambassador and permanent representative to the IAEA, Soltanieh, and Mojtaba Samareh-Hashemi, a senior aide to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

    “All the reports that say ‘Obama talks secretly with Iran’ are wrong,” Paolo Cotta-Ramusino, the secretary general of Pugwash and the key mover behind the dialogue told The Cable Monday. “These were not official negotiations. First of all, the dates of all our meetings were in 2008,” when the Bush administration was still in power.

    “I think that we have had very good representation on the Iranian side,” Cotta-Ramusino, an Italian physicist who traveled many times to Iran to develop relationships of trust with Iranian players to help initiate the dialogue, continued.

    sleepy (09c352)

  82. “You guys be quiet about me in the world news and pump loads of money into my campaign — you have to make it look like you’re American citizens due to our laws — and I’ll let you have Afghanistan and Palestine. Do what you want with the usurpers.”

    That sounds like that would fit within the parameters of the article you quoted, sleepy.

    (I knew I was going to regret agreeing with you. I just didn’t know my regret would come so soon.) :(

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  83. ““You guys be quiet about me in the world news and pump loads of money into my campaign ”
    I’ve got no ideas WTF you’re talking about.
    Show me you know something about Iran or the middle east in general and maybe we’ll talk.

    g’night

    sleepy (09c352)

  84. I know, this is a completely useless and silly question, but I am going to give it a shot. sleepy – If Baracky and his aides were not having discussions with foreign governments, let’s use Hamas as an example, why would Baracky go to such legths to disassociate himself from that dastardly advisor that went off on his own and met with Hamas?

    JD (5535b9)

  85. “If Baracky and his aides were not having discussions with foreign governments,”
    He wasn’t. Others were, on their own time
    “why would Baracky go to such legths to disassociate himself from that dastardly advisor..”
    Malley also on his own time as the head of International Crisis Group.

    But the timing of the news was not good. Obambi would have backed away from the others too if the news had come out.
    Which would have been bad for former Defense Secretary William Perry, and for the rest of us.

    Maturity is the ability to respond logically to the childishness of others. Nonetheless I’d ask you all to grow up.

    sleepy (09c352)

  86. Coherence includes the ability to answer a direct question. sleepy, you ain’t got it.

    Pablo (99243e)

  87. So, that was just another one of those people that was not the person Baracky thought he knew. The lengths that the Obamatrons will go to in order to apologize for their man’s actions. Plus, calling everyone else childish is just so … childish.

    JD (5535b9)

  88. ““You guys be quiet about me in the world news and pump loads of money into my campaign ”

    I’ve got no ideas WTF you’re talking about.
    Show me you know something about Iran or the middle east in general and maybe we’ll talk.

    Here. But you know what? You don’t need to talk. Really. Take the day off.

    Pablo (99243e)

  89. Good Point timb, but I’m guessing coments here are using the “strawman” defense concerning President Reagan, because they assume he never told us “one president at a time”

    Actually, Oiriam, it’s because they once heard someone say strawman and they like the term so much they throw it out every time they read a point they don’t understand. I agreed with them, this President should be impeached for “violating the Logan Act” and “lying.”

    Of course, I was just satirizing their own stupid arguments, e.g. whenever someone is shocked by the vehement hatred and anger they have for a guy who has been President for a fortnight, they huff and puff and point to some jackass on Kos who called Bush Hitler, because, apparently, crazies on the far left means these folks can dish out their crazy without guilt (second only to their little understood “strawman” argument is their love of the moral equivalence argument).

    The fact that they are wrong never occurs to them. A Democratic Senate passed the Patriot Act, passed the first Bush tax cuts, the No Child Left Behind bill, and voted to invade Iraq. Democratic legislators in the form of Jane Harmon and Senator Rockerfeller acquiesced to wiretaps without warrants (a program that even John Ashcroft, Jim Comey, and Jack Goldsmith found illegal) and torture. A later Democratic House and Senate confirmed a new “I don’t know if water-boarding is torture” AG, continued funding of the Iraq mission (despite the impassioned pleas of its base), enacted the execrable Military Commissions Act, and granted amnesty for telecoms.

    Now, two weeks into a new administration, when the GDP dropped 3.8% in the fourth quarter and a million jobs with health insurance were lost in the last three months, these tools want to get their panties in a bunch over something EVERY important American does (hell, my GOVERNOR has been overseas visiting foreigners), all because they hate the new President.

    Their representatives in Congress, who now apparently follow the lead of Rush Limbaugh (like Karl and the gang here do), can’t even find one vote for a stimulus package the President watered down with idiotic tax cuts for their side.

    This is why it’s fun to come here. JD, Hitchie, Pablo and the gang are not serious people. They spend their days in various forms of outrage, fiddling while Rome burns, and taking statements out of context. Only in wingnuttia would the President-elect’s desire to not publicly undercut the current President be taken as something terrible and new (it isn’t…Jefferson did it with French and Adams did it with the English in 1796 for God’s sake). The fact that every nominee does it is just lost on them, because of the blindness their hate causes (was John McCain in South America during the election? Did he meet with Georgia’s President? Was HE violating the Logan Act?)

    SOP is now verboten in wingnuttia.

    But, they are entertaining. You can come here and see the funny little things that make them angry and leave a comment and have most commenters respond with nothing else than name-calling (all the more funny since I was agreeing with them). It’s like Sadly, No…only the people here mean it!

    timb (a83d56)

  90. Timmah!, shouldn’t you be out scouring the internet for references to Jeff Goldstein and tossing my name around? Get out there, Timmah! You’ve got IMPORTANT WORK to do!

    Pablo (99243e)

  91. “these tools want to get their panties in a bunch over something EVERY important American does”

    IMPORTANT ACTION ALERT

    timmah gets it, he really does!!!!

    Sort of like when Obama was visiting Iraq last summer and he tried to talk Iraq into not reaching a Status of Forces Agreement with Bush while he was still in office. That’s the kind of stuff you mean, right timmah, stuff any American would do. Or when Pelosi visited Syria against the White House’s wishes, yeah, any important American would do that.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  92. You have been blessed with the received wisdom of teh timmah.

    JD (5535b9)

  93. Pbuh.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  94. Daley I’ll give you credit for sincerity in which case I’ll just say you don’t pay attention. Or I’ll give you credit for paying attention, but then I’ll just call you a liar

    Lending significant credence to Obama’s response is the fact that — though it’s absent from the Post story and other retellings — in addition to Obama and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, this July meeting was also attended by Bush administration officials, such as U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker and the Baghdad embassy’s legislative affairs advisor Rich Haughton, as well as a Republican senator, Chuck Hagel of Nebraska.

    “Or when Pelosi visited Syria against the White House’s wishes”

    But the White House did not criticize Republican lawmakers who were separately slated to visit Syria. Indeed, on April 1, Reps. Frank Wolf (R-VA), Joseph R. Pitts (R-PA) and Robert Aderholt (R-AL) traveled to Damascus and met with Assad, two days before Pelosi’s scheduled trip.

    Laziness or mendacity? Pick one. Pick two if you want.

    sleepy (09c352)

  95. sleepy – I guess it all depends on which Obama response you want to lend credibility to, as you will recall there were several.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  96. sleepy – You might enjoy this speech by a Palestinian journalist posted by Michael Totten a few days ago:

    http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2009/02/a-minority-repo.php

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  97. But the White House did not criticize Republican lawmakers who were separately slated to visit Syria.

    …maybe because they didn’t go to kowtow to Assad and make statements on behalf of Israel that weren’t true?

    After meeting for three hours with Assad on Wednesday, the House speaker announced that the Syrian president is “ready to engage in negotiations for peace with Israel.” Assad has repeatedly said over the past year that Damascus is willing to negotiate with Israel as long as talks lead to the return of the Golan Heights, seized by Israel after it was attacked by Syria and six other neighbors in the 1967 Six-Day War.

    Shocking officials in Jerusalem, where she had visited two days earlier, Pelosi said she also told Assad that Olmert had wanted to relay the message that Israel is ready for peace talks with Syria.

    That came as a surprise to the prime minister, whose office on Wednesday denied any such conversation and said that “what was discussed with the House speaker did not include any change in Israel’s policy, as it has been presented to international parties involved in the matter.”

    carlitos (ac34f6)

  98. A group of three Republican congressmen also visited Syria in recent days, but with a much lower profile. They too met with Assad. One staff member, however, said the two trips were planned independently and the Republicans were unaware of the speaker’s travel plans.

    Rep. Robert Aderholt, R-Ala., issued a statement Wednesday putting distance between his trip with Reps. Frank Wolf of Virginia and Joe Pitts of Pennsylvania. Other Republicans visiting Syria in recent days were Reps. David Hobson of Ohio and Darrell Issa of California.

    “I, along with my colleagues, fully support the Administration’s long term strategy and decisions regarding Syria. My visit was in no way an attempt to make foreign policy or negotiate on behalf of the United States government,” Aderholt said, characterizing the visit only as a “fact-finding trip.”

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  99. Choose two sleepy, choose two.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  100. OH NOES!!!!!

    Polling Group Censures Iraq Death Toll Researcher

    A prominent group of polling researchers has accused the lead author of a 2006 study suggesting massive civilian deaths in Iraq of violating the polling profession’s codes and ethics.

    The Executive Council of the American Association for Public Opinion Research said Dr. Gilbert Burnham, a Johns Hopkins University professor, had repeatedly refused to cooperate with an eight-month investigation into his research on the Iraqi death toll that made headlines in October 2006 when it was published by The Lancet, a British medical journal.

    The widely publicized study headed by Burnham contended that nearly 655,000 Iraqis had died because of the U.S.-led invasion and war in Iraq.

    _____________________________________________

    I loved those guys! Almost as much as Baghdad Bob – We are ruthlessly annihilating the American invaders and pushing them back into the sea as we speak!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  101. “Golan Heights, seized by Israel after it was attacked by Syria and six other neighbors in the 1967 Six-Day War”

    The 6 day war began when israel launched a “preemptive” assault.

    Pelosi/Syria
    The Forward learned from an Israeli source that in Pelosi’s meetings with Israeli officials, the House speaker was told that Jerusalem was open to any peace overture from Damascus but Syria must first end support for terrorism. On Thursday, the Israeli press quoted sources close to the prime minister saying that Pelosi “chose to use only part of the message” that Olmert had conveyed to her.”
    The rest is simply politics.

    On Burnham, I’ll wait and see what happens.
    But it would be nice if I didn’t have to search for the thing myself. here’s the link

    sleepy (4bc344)

  102. It’s the Joooooooossss.

    We get it.

    Eric Blair (1aa50b)

  103. “On Burnham, I’ll wait and see what happens.
    But it would be nice if I didn’t have to search for the thing myself. here’s the link”

    All you have to do is ask.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  104. My name is seth edenbaum.
    I’m a jew

    sleepy (4bc344)

  105. sleepy – On that Burnham thing, how the fuck did it get peer reviewed and published by the Lancet in the first place if the guy wasn’t willing to reveal his methodology?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  106. The methodology in that Lancet study was obviously flawed from the get-go. I’m glad (and kinda surprised) to see that his professional watchdogs are pursuing it.

    Re: the joooooos, the point is that no other nation, no matter how unjust or violent its founding, has its legitimacy to exist challenged. Only Israel. Why is that?

    carlitos (ac34f6)

  107. “the point is that no other nation, no matter how unjust or violent its founding, has its legitimacy to exist.”

    No, that’s not the point. The point is that no country that can call itself modern and democratic defines itself by demography before democracy.
    Jorg Haider’s Austria and Le Pen’s France are not ideals worthy of defense by liberals. Neither is Saudi Arabia. On a sliding scale, Iran is much better, which is not a defense of discriminatory policies. The point is: I don’t defend them anywhere.
    I don’t worry about the future white minority population of the US. But others do.

    Israel was founded on the racialism of a Jewish “National Front.”
    Interesting fact: The Irgun and Lehi blew up more busses than Hamas has.
    And England stopped importing Scottish Presbyterians into Ireland a long time ago, while Israel is still front loading immigrants.
    I live in a multiethnic democracy. If you want me to defend a white homeland for Jews with strict controls on Goyim, then consider throwing a million Germans out of the Rhineland. I’d be against that too, but I’d be tempted.

    sleepy (4bc344)

  108. Sleepy, do Jewish people get the same rights as Arabs in Syria? Or in Jordan, do the Jewish people receive equal treatment under the law?

    Israeli Arabs have the same voting rights as Israeli Jews.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  109. “No, that’s not the point. The point is that no country that can call itself modern and democratic defines itself by demography before democracy.”

    Pakistan

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  110. Come to think of it, I can’t remember how many times I’ve seen blonde-haired blue-eyed members of Japan’s legislature.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  111. I don’t defend discrimination against the Ainu, or Koreans in Japan. And as I’ve said many times here, Pakistan is a bigger problem than Iran. And we haven’t helped much.

    And don’t even begin to argue that Israeli arabs are on an equal footing with the Jewish population.
    Do some research on the Jewish National Fund and land policies, to start.
    Here’s a bit of history for you.

    sleepy (d04007)

  112. Bangladesh would be another country partitioned in modern history.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  113. Based largely on demographics.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  114. “No, that’s not the point. The point is that no country that can call itself modern and democratic defines itself by demography before democracy.”

    Except for those instances that we have already shown. And those instances we may find that we haven’t already shown. I got it. Your statement of absolute carries no weight, even in your own mind.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  115. “And as I’ve said many times here, Pakistan is a bigger problem than Iran.”

    sleepy – But you can stop pretending with you victomology that Israel is unique in the world and ignoring Jews that were thrown out of Arab countries in 1948. Your drone is tiresome.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  116. “And as I’ve said many times here, Pakistan is a bigger problem than Iran.”

    sleepy – Wait, does Pakistan have more Jooosss left to exterminate than Iran? What happens when they finish? Will there be peace in our time? What are your suggestions, you never seem to offer any?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  117. The point is that no country that can call itself modern and democratic defines itself by demography before democracy

    .

    That really sounds nice. It means nothing, but sounds nice. Israel certainly is unique vs. its neighbors in that it does define itself by democracy. I note that Jordan and Egypt fail in this regard. As do the Islamic Republics of x, y and z throughout the Middle East.

    The point is that opponents of Israel don’t contest the rights of Japan or Saudi Arabia or Bangladesh to exist.

    The further point is that the arab muslims in the Levant were ruled by:
    – Greeks for centuries – no rights
    – Romans for centuries – no rights
    – Iron-fisted turks for 600 years – no problem.
    – Brits for 30-something years – yawn.
    – Joooos for 60 years – Arab jews can worship freely, vote, own property and hold office in a democracy, practically the only place in the arab world where they have these rights, but it’s a genocide eleventy!1!!1!

    carlitos (ac34f6)

  118. ugh. “Arab jews” = “Arabs in Israel”

    carlitos (ac34f6)

  119. Because the arabs booted the jews out in ’48, obviously there are no more arab jews.

    carlitos (ac34f6)

  120. ” Wait, does Pakistan have more Jooosss left to exterminate than Iran?”
    There are 25,000 Jews left in Iran. And a Jewish member of Parliament. I’d rather be a Jew in Tehran right now than a Palestinian in Gaza.
    And how many Jews are there in “moderate” Saudi Arabia?

    I posted a link and I gather you ignored it, but here’s another.

    So Israel is modern compared to the Roman and Ottoman and even the British Empires. Am I supposed to be impressed by that, in 2009?

    Here’s an annotated google map of the settlements in the west bank
    Gaza has been a prison for 18 years. In lock down for 2; all in defense of the demographic logic of the Israeli government.
    It’s Kuwait in reverse. Immigrants in Kuwait make up the majority of the population, but they’re not allowed to vote. In Israel the newcomers keep the natives penned in so they can’t interfere. And Arabs are all the same no more than Hispanics are all the same. Venezuela is not going to take in 1 million Colombian refugees any more than Egypt is going to take in every Palestinian. That’s why there are refugee camps.

    You can’t defend the morality of the Jewish “right of return” after 2000 years and deny the morality of the Palestinian right of return after 50 any more than Josh Marshall can. And he knows more than you do.

    David Ben Gurion:
    “If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?”

    A binational state is the only moral option. And considering Israeli actions over the past years. the only one that’s left.

    sleepy (09c352)

  121. The Magnes Zionist
    You should read him. He’s an Orthodox Jewish professor of Jewish Studies. He lives in Jerusalem.
    And he’s a mensch,

    sleepy (09c352)

  122. I’m looking forward to sleepy retracting his attacks on Israel but I’m not holding my breath.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  123. sleepy – Why don’t you just create a standard anti-zionist comment that you can drop into every thread and save everyone the trouble of skipping past your screeds. Just say what you want to sat and be done with it. I think I understand what you want based on your perseveration. Is it something along the following lines:

    “The modern state of Israel has no right to exist in it’s present form. It’s lands were forcibly taken from then current residents who have been residing in exile in refugee camps, with no right of return ever since. The brutal governments of Israel have been responsible for most of the violence in the Middle East since the country’s founding. With open borders and a full right of return and citizenship rights, much of the conflict should disappear, along with the state of Israel as it currently exists. Tough luck, it was a mistake to begin with.”

    Is the above about right, sleepy?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  124. “…I’d rather be a Jew in Tehran right now than a Palestinian in Gaza….”

    Oh. My. God.

    First, you might want to compare apples with apples. How about being a Jew in Tehran right after Khomeini took over? Or how about being a member of Fatah in Gaza two years ago?

    Here is a video from some of those far-seeing people in Iran:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LUzSyJlNFs

    Oh, sure: it’s all propaganda, right? Especially the part where they call Jews the descendants of pigs and dogs, right?

    And whoever said the Saudis were moderate? Their support of the worst kind of anti-Semitic propaganda says it all.

    On the other hand, I don’t see the point in debating an anti-Semite. Even a Jewish one.

    Sheesh. Look the history of this person’s posts!

    Eric Blair (1aa50b)

  125. “I’d rather be a Jew in Tehran right now than a Palestinian in Gaza”

    Eric – I agree, not really apples to apples. The Palestinians in Gaza or their leaders/puppet masters are responsible for their current conditions, although I’m sure sleepy would disagree. Maybe sleepy feels the Jews in Iran are responsible for the hate directed their way as well, but they got that member of parliament there. Suhweeeet!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  126. Haaretz:
    UN backtracks on claim that IDF strike hit Gaza school
    “The newspaper quoted the teacher as saying, ‘I could see some of the people had been injured … But when I got outside, it was crazy hell. There were bodies everywhere, people dead, injured, flesh everywhere.’
    The newspaper said the teacher had been told by the UN not to speak to the media. “Three of my students were killed,” he said. ‘But they were all outside.’ ”
    There’s a differerence yes, but 40 dead is 40 dead and Israel lied about gunmen being in the school.

    Nancy Kanwisher of MIT: Who breaks truces first?

    Thus, a systematic pattern does exist: it is overwhelmingly Israel, not Palestine, that kills first following a lull. Indeed, it is virtually always Israel that kills first after a lull lasting more than a week.
    The lessons from these data are clear:
    First, Hamas can indeed control the rockets, when it is in their interest. The data shows that ceasefires can work, reducing the violence to nearly zero for months at a time.
    Second, if Israel wants to reduce rocket fire from Gaza, it should cherish and preserve the peace when it starts to break out, not be the first to kill.

    Stephen Zunes:

    While supporters of the secular PLO were denied their own media or right to hold political gatherings, the Israeli occupation authorities allowed radical Islamic groups to hold rallies, publish uncensored newspapers and even have their own radio station. For example, in the occupied Palestinian city of Gaza in 1981, Israeli soldiers — who had shown no hesitation in brutally suppressing peaceful pro-PLO demonstrations — stood by when a group of Islamic extremists attacked and burned a PLO-affiliated health clinic in Gaza for offering family-planning services for women.

    Hamas, an acronym for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya (Islamic Resistance Movement), was founded in 1987 by Sheik Ahmed Yassin, who had been freed from prison when Israel conquered the Gaza Strip 20 years earlier. Israel’s priorities in suppressing Palestinian dissent during this period were revealing: In 1988, Israel forcibly exiled Palestinian activist Mubarak Awad, a Christian pacifist who advocated the use of Gandhian-style resistance to the Israeli occupation and Israeli-Palestinian peace, while allowing Yassin to circulate anti-Jewish hate literature and publicly call for the destruction of Israel by force of arms.

    Nice strategy.
    You really should read Jerry Haber.

    sleepy (09c352)

  127. It sounds like you have been reading many other things besides Haber’s screeds. And they all begin and end with the same point of view.

    Eric Blair (1aa50b)

  128. sleepy – What did I get wrong in #124?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  129. The “secular” PLO? sleepy is fucking awesome. It is also a tool.

    carlitos (ac34f6)

  130. “The secular PLO” Yes.

    Uri Avnery:

    “After all, it is no secret that it was the Israeli government which set up Hamas to start with. When I once asked a former Shin-Bet chief, Yaakov Peri, about it, he answered enigmatically: “We did not create it, but we did not hinder its creation.”

    This is Uri Avnery,
    Born:September 10, 1923, Beckum, Germany.
    Immigration to palestine:
    November 1933.
    Underground:
    Member of the Irgun, 1938-1942.
    Army service:
    Member of Samson’s Foxes, commando unit, 1948
    twice wounded in action.

    And your paragraph isn’t bad but it ignores support for local dictators and the Saudi monarchy.

    sleepy (09c352)

  131. The fact that Israel used Hamas as a counterfoil to the PLO many years ago is simply irrelevant to events today. But this is typical of sleepy’s dishonest defense of terrorist organizations.

    And of course, sleepy’s response to the fact that the attack on the school turned out to be a lie by the UN is completely excused by sleepy with the threadbare retort that the IDF “lied”.

    SPQR (72771e)

  132. sleepy, it seems obvious to me, but you keep not getting it so let’s try again.

    You listing bad stuff done by jews pre-1948 doesn’t change the fact that Israel exists as it is. It sits right there in Israel, has a seat at the UN and what-not.

    You and your ilk spend about zero time lamenting bad things done by russians, turks, japs, nazis, hindus, or anyone else during the 40’s, yet all of their countries have the right to exist, unquestioned by you. Why is that?

    carlitos (ac34f6)

  133. “And your paragraph isn’t bad but it ignores support for local dictators and the Saudi monarchy.”

    sleepy – I was just trying to write the paragraph from your perspective as a citizen of the world, not the U.S. Who’s support of local dictators and the Saudi monarchy are you talking about here and what does it have to do with Israel?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  134. “You listing bad stuff done by jews pre-1948 doesn’t change the fact that Israel exists as it is”

    In 25 years of working on this issue for six secretaries of state, I can’t recall one meeting where we had a serious discussion with an Israeli prime minister about the damage that settlement activity — including land confiscation, bypass roads and housing demolitions — does to the peacemaking process.”

    Again: Here are the settlements on West Bank.
    40 years of military occupation, 18 years of Gaza as a prison, all in defense of a “jewish” state. All in defense of a racial definition of statehood and of a state built by and for immigrants.

    Ben Gurion-
    “We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country.”

    The Israelis were the first terrorists, and they still are.

    sleepy (09c352)

  135. Sleepy continues his crusade against Israel in a series of posts above.

    A link shows photos of what purports to be “Palestinians” in and around Jaffa in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Arab residents of Palestine did not begin calling themselves Palestinians until 1964. During the mandatory period “Palestinians” was a term of opprobrium used by Arabs to designate Jewish residents. At the time the photos in the link were allegedly taken Jaffans were subjects of the Ottoman Empire thought of themselves as Syrians.

    Jews who arrived in the area prior to WWI came with the permission of the Turkish Sultan and obtained land by purchasing it from Arabs.

    At the Rhodes conference following Israel’s victory in the 1948 War of Independence, Arab delegations would not sit in the same room with the Israelis. Israel offered to take back the Arab refugees from that war as part of a peace settlement, but the Arabs refused. They insisted that Israel take back the refugees as a precondition for continuing the talks. Israel took in 600,000 of 800,000 Jewish refugees from Muslim lands who fled or were expelled from Arab lands.
    Sleepy also claims that the 1967 war began with Israel’s pre-emptive attack. A blockade is an act of war in international law. Egypt’s blockade of the Gulf of Aqaba was such an act. That coupled with the movement of 1,000 tanks and 100,000 Egyptian troops into the Sianai, the mobilization of the Syrian Army on the Golan Heights, and the mobilization of the Jordanian Army, the withdrawal of UN “peacekeepers” from the Sinai and threats to destroy Israel were the cause of Israel’s pre-emptive raid on Egypt’s Air Force. I know that Sleepy quotes an Israeli general that Egypty had only 2 armored divisions in the Sinai. Even if accurate, that does not preclude the presence of armored formations of less than divisional strength and tanks assigned to infantry divisions or brigades.

    The quotes of Ben Gurion are from a speech where he summarized the views of Arab leaders, not his own views.

    Sleepy disdains Israel’s law of return. But a sovereign state is free to allow whoever it wants into its territory. The very concept of a nation-state is contrary to Sleepy’s attack on Israel’s “demographic basis.” Other nations have laws of return. Among them are Ireland, Germany, and Russia. I’ll bet Sleepy can’t guess which group of former residents are specifically exempted from Russia’s law of return.

    The claim that Irgun and Lehi blew up more buses than Hamas is unsourced. The notion that Israelis were the first terrorist is false.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  136. sleepy – Do you have a purpose for posting your anti-semitic filth? I keep asking. Why do you keeo perseverating over this? Seriously, once a month or at most once a thread would be enough. What result are you expecting from your comments? Is there an issue you feel you are addressing with your comments? Is there a solution you have proposed to that issue? Or are your comments just the free form vomitus of a diseased mind?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  137. What does it matter what people called themselves. They lived there. It was their home. Do the photographs only “purport” to show people living in Palestine?
    “A blockade is an act of war in international law.”
    Fair enough. And the blockade on Gaza that’s been on for 2 years is what?
    Israel is a modern fabrication, and invented state. It’s not an “age old” conflict, but a modern one, built on expulsion and immigration,
    “The claim that Irgun and Lehi blew up more buses than Hamas is unsourced.”

    It’s fully documented. In theThe British National Archives
    You can also go to the page with the photographs and scroll down

    Ben Gurion
    I don’t understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: they think [correction] we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations’ time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it’s simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.

    Ari Shavit interview with Benny Morris

    According to your new findings, how many cases of Israeli rape were there in 1948?

    About a dozen. In Acre four soldiers raped a girl and murdered her and her father. In Jaffa, soldiers of the Kiryati Brigade raped one girl and tried to rape several more. At Hunin, which is in the Galilee, two girls were raped and then murdered. There were one or two cases of rape at Tantura, south of Haifa. There was one case of rape at Qula, in the center of the country. At the village of Abu Shusha, near Kibbutz Gezer [in the Ramle area] there were four female prisoners, one of whom was raped a number of times. And there were other cases. Usually more than one soldier was involved. Usually there were one or two Palestinian girls. In a large proportion of the cases the event ended with murder. Because neither the victims nor the rapists liked to report these events, we have to assume that the dozen cases of rape that were reported, which I found, are not the whole story. They are just the tip of the iceberg.

    According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?

    Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field – they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village – she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

    The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.

    sleepy (09c352)

  138. The Israelis were the first terrorists, and they still are.

    Comment by sleepy — 2/5/2009 @ 11:00 am

    And yet, there they are, in Israel. Your solution is … ????

    carlitos (ac34f6)

  139. The Israelis were the first terrorists, and they still are.

    Comment by sleepy — 2/5/2009 @ 11:00 am
    Lights out. Go to sleep. Please.

    Emperor7 who wants DRJ back! (1b037c)

  140. #138

    No one disputes that there were Arabs living in Jaffa in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. There are still Arabs living in Jaffa today. The fact that there were and are Arabs living in Jaffa does not mean that the Jews stole their land.

    The captions of the photos you linked describe Jaffa residents as Palestinians. I pointed out that the term Palestinian was not used by Arabs to describe themselves until 1964.

    I found no information in the British National Archives you linked on bus bombings by Irgun or Lehi. It may be there and I could not find it. The information from the British Army below the photos at the Palestinian web site makes no mention of bus bombing. Obviously, there would be no mention of bombings by Hamas since it did not exist at the time the original material was created. Perhaps you can tell me how many buses did Irgun and Lehi bomb? How many has Hamas bombed?

    Benny Morris did find evidence of Israeli atrocities committed during the 1948 war. Like all atrocities they are by definition reprehensible. Since no Arab historian has reported any evidence of Arab atrocities, I suppose that means Arabs committed none. Nor does the material cited, disgraceful though it is, support your contention that Israelis were the first terrorists. If you research the history of Jaffa you will find that during the Arab riots of the 1920s and 1930s many Jews whose history in Jaffa had gone back centuries were driven out.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  141. I again feel the need to point out that it’s 2009. Rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel in February, 2009, during the latest ‘cease fire’ there. It’s not 1948. Israel exists.

    carlitos (ac34f6)

  142. Carlitos, I suggest you read Duncan Kennedy
    A Context for Gaza

    sleepy (09c352)

  143. I see why you liked the Harvard opinion column you linked. Similarly, it offers no solution to the problem, and treats Hamas as even-handedly as Israel in its analysis. It is fraught with biased conclusions and facile logic. Appropriately, it is written by a prof occupying the Carter chair. You and your learned colleagues offer much analysis of the past, and little else.

    carlitos (c4c10e)

  144. “It is fraught with biased conclusions and facile logic.”
    I’ve given any number of links to facts regarding Hamas and its actions. So did Kennedy. You’ve given almsost none.
    A couple of home made rockets?
    vs white phosphorus
    13 Israeli casualties. 1300 Palestinians.

    The solution begins with an end to coddling Israeli self-importance and an acknowledgment of Palestinians’ situation.
    A binational state is the only modern and hence moral option. Other than that the questions are practical and what the parties will accept. You defend Israel as Israel, racism and all. I don’t.
    The occupation should be ended. It hasn’t and the settlements expand. The siege on Gaza should be lifted. It hasn’t been.
    You defend a state against a population as if a state has superior moral standing. By your logic a dictatorship has moral standing over a popular uprising. That is simply not the case.

    sleepy (09c352)

  145. Hmmm. Why are the Egyptians blockading the Southern Border of Gaza? Nor have you had much to say about how Hamas has governed Gaza, I notice. Particularly the part about kidnapping journalists who disagree with them.

    You aren’t interested in any of this, because the subjects aren’t your hated jooooooooos.

    I have an idea. What if you were fighting over a piece of property, and your neighbors took to shooting randomly at your house. They have killed some of your pets, and wounded one of your family members. They keep shooting at you, and you keep complaining.

    Finally, you go over there in force, and take their guns away, and keep them from getting more guns easily. At the same time, you let them go to the store to get food.

    And yet you have people who don’t live in your neighborhood, accuse YOU of being the aggressor. Any attempt to actually have a cease fire keeps getting interrupted by more gunfire from their side, which they say was not their responsibility. No matter what you do to protect your own home gets attacked and criticized, while the actions of your own neighbors get ignored.

    Seriously, dude. You sound like some of those Arab TV programs. Go for a walk and chill out. You sound like a nutty anti-Semite, you really do.

    Eric Blair (1aa50b)

  146. Oh, and don’t EVEN try to use the word “racism” against Israelis, without discussing how non-Jewish Middle Easterners feel about Jews. ‘Kay? Don’t forget the “pig” and “ape” cartoons for children, hypocrite.

    Nor forget about how the ME feels about Blacks.

    Or Asians.

    Or anyone not like themselves.

    I just don’t understand this continual Leftist defense of a culture that would jail a Leftist for saying things against their regime…while attacking a culture that allows criticism to a far greater extent than found anywhere in the ME.

    Eric Blair (1aa50b)

  147. Actually, I think I understand sleepy. He detests all things derived from Western culture, and the influx of European Jews into Israel has permanently tainted it in his eyes.

    Eric Blair (1aa50b)

  148. sleepy, the white phosporus propaganda has already been debunked. The IDF has been using smoke shells that use white phosporus, not incindiary rounds. That you repeat that canard together with rehashes of six decade old allegations only reinforces the essentially dishonest nature of your commentary.

    Not that anyone could be in any doubt by now.

    SPQR (72771e)

  149. 1/3 of the world’s Jewish population is in Israel. 1/3 of the world’s Jewish population is in the US and somehow are, for the most part, a strong liberal voting bloc despite the anti-Israel nature of the vast majority of liberals in the US. 1/3 of the world’s Jewish population live outside the US and Israel. Is it any wonder Israel’s greatest friend is the US? Is it any wonder those arrogant leftist nutjobs hate the US with the same vigor they hate Israel?

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  150. I’ve given any number of links to facts regarding Hamas and its actions. So did Kennedy. You’ve given almsost none.

    I had thought Hamas’ reprehensible actions to be well-documented. Can’t do links, in a hurry.
    – child abuse, indoctrinating 2 generations into a death cult, which helps foster:
    – killing of journalists
    – killing of homosexuals
    – killing of political opponents
    – killing of jews

    A couple of home made rockets?

    You, sir, are an asshole. When I was in high school, we made “homemade” rockets, but not rockets like these.

    vs white phosphorus

    (cough) bullshit (cough)

    13 Israeli casualties. 1300 Palestinians.

    So? If the death penalty is wrong, and a man is killed for murdering 100 children, the death penalty is still wrong. The numbers don’t matter.

    The solution begins with an end to coddling Israeli self-importance and an acknowledgment of Palestinians’ situation.

    Everyone acknowledges their situation. They have been screwed by Turkey, Egypt, Jordan and the rest of the arab world for hundreds of years. They have achieved some minor self-determination in partnership with Israel, yet never “miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” And in Gaza, they chose a corrupt, genocidal death cult to govern themselves, replacing the previously more-corrupt, less genocidal government. Please find me a more bankrupt culture anywhere.

    A binational state is the only modern and hence moral option.

    A binational state will remove democracy and all traces of Western enlightenment from Israel/Palestine in 30 years, max. See nearly all other arab states for examples. But then again, you’re not a fan of Western Civilization, are you?

    Other than that the questions are practical and what the parties will accept. You defend Israel as Israel, racism and all. I don’t.

    I defend democracy and liberal values wherever they are found. Including in Israel, one of many flawed nations that are better than every alternative.

    The occupation should be ended. It hasn’t and the settlements expand. The siege on Gaza should be lifted. It hasn’t been.

    How was Gaza “occupied” before this conflict? Oh yeah, it wasn’t. How are those greenhouses doing these days?

    You defend a state against a population as if a state has superior moral standing. By your logic a dictatorship has moral standing over a popular uprising. That is simply not the case.

    It certainly is the case in the UN, where those dictatorships vote as a bloc and condemn Israel more than any other nation. Where there are dedicated agencies working for the “Palestinians” exclusively, where they leave other refugees high and dry, or pay lip service. What is the one thing special to the Palestinian problem, that all other displaced persons all over the world lack? Oh yeah, Jews.

    carlitos (c4c10e)

  151. A binational state is the only modern and hence moral option. Other than that the questions are practical and what the parties will accept. You defend Israel as Israel, racism and all. I don’t.

    Modern? The idea of a bi-national state has been around for quite a while. It was proposed by prominent Jews such as Judah Magnes as early as 1920. Just such a solution was offered to the Arabs by the British White Paper of 1939. Surprise! The Arabs rejected it.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  152. Sometimes I wonder whether sleepy is a member of one of those small mutant Jewish sects like Neturei Karta which don’t believe Israel should exist. They claim their beliefs are grounded in religion. Interestingly though, they have taken money from the PLO and participate in the Iranian Holocaust Conferences.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  153. Daley, agreed that groups like Neturei Katra are surreal. How they reconcile religious opposition to the existence of Israel with accepting financial and other support from groups who would destroy Israel and murder every Jew they could get their hands on who would not accept dhimmi status is a mystery to me.

    I don’t think Sleepy is affiliated with any of those groups. Just as there are American leftists of all ethnic and religious backgrounds who find nothing but fault with the our country, there are Jewish leftists who find nothing but fault with Israel. I think Sleepy’s hatred of Israel grows out of his leftist views.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  154. Stu – I hashed out a bunch of sleepy’s bogus links and Benny Morris’s revisionist history of Israel a couple of years ago here when he was posting under a different name. He just returns to the same meme. The Jews are at fault for everything they bring upon themselves. There were no Arab atrocities against Jews anywhere in the Mideast. The state of Israel is illegal even though it was created through international treaties. Same shit, different year. He just sucks up Palestinian propaganda like water and doesn’t acknowledge his errors. It’s like talking to a brick wall so I don’t bother as much as I used to.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  155. The responses here are bizarre, ignoring data and responding to the fact of the arguments I make. As in “how dare you even think…” But facts are facts.. jewish immigration to Palestine was immigration, just as South Americans moving north into the US is immigration. And the Mesoamericans were here first too. Los Angeles is a spanish name.

    But whatever confirms your self-indulgent anger is what you choose. 40 years of military occupation. A walled prison out of an entire city; now living off charity due to an an economic and physical blockade. Why does Egypt maintain a blockade? I’ve answered that 5 times already. Why would Colombia isolate Venezuelan refugees? Why would any state isolate such a large number? But to you Arabs are Arabs and Hispanics are Hispanics: Mexicans are Ecuadorians but Canadians and Americans are distinct peoples.

    You’ve ignored Ben Gurion’s statement: the Holocaust was a European crime, not an Arab one. but “God gave [Israel] to us”
    There is no god. It’s all silly. You defend the expulsion of a population. You defend their imprisonment and blame others for its continuation more than the people who committed the actual crime itself. That amazes me.
    -Israel supported the growth of Islamic fundamentalism to counter secular leftists.
    – Israel expelled a proponent of Gandhian non-violence while allowing Hamas to grow.
    -Hamas tried originally to form a government that included people aligned neither with themselves or Fatah. Israel threatened those people and their families. I’ve linked to the sources for all this here more than once. I’m not doing it again.
    Israel does not want nor has it ever wanted a moderate Palestinian movement. It does not want a movement with which the world can easily sympathize.
    But if you point to a bomb. I can point to 20.
    If you point to the death of a child. I can point to the deaths of 40. But that means nothing to you.

    And Patterico goes on about abortion.
    That’s just perverse,

    sleepy (09c352)

  156. Cue up the theme from “Hogan’s Heroes” folks. Nazis were just misunderstood, and responding to those darned joooos.

    Eric Blair (1aa50b)

  157. I was going to give blah/AF/sleepy the benefit of the doubt, as I had not seen its hate-fueled anti-Semitic remarks preiously. At this point, it is clear that sleepy just hates him some Jooooooooooooooooooooos.

    JD (fb1fc9)

  158. Whoops. Sorry for the double post.

    Eric Blair (1aa50b)

  159. “And Patterico goes on about abortion.
    That’s just perverse,”

    sleepy – It’s Patterico’s blog, not your’s, get over it. If you don’t like the stories covered here you have no obligation to comment here. You can always start your own blog. Your complainys about the blog proprietors covereage decisions are misplaced and perverse.

    Your distortions and one-sided view of Israel is also perverse. The world powers following World War II legally created the state of Israel. It exists. Get over it. Whether Palestinians/Arabs were forcibly expelled is at the time of it’s creation is certainly open to interpretation as you well know. You choose to interpret facts 100% one direction which most reasonable people would not. You also ignore the forcible ejection of Jews from Arab states at the time of Israel’s creation, which most reasonable people would not. You say you could find 20 incidents for each one other present. I say bravo. Are the Israelis sending suicide bombers into restaurants and onto buses to strike terror into the Palestinian population? I think you know the answer to thint question.

    You use sophistry to ignore the basic questions here. If Israel unilaterally laid down its arms and opened its borders to both the West Bank and Gaza, what would happen to the state of Israel? You know what would happen but are afraid to state it. It’s tough to hold a serious conversation with someone who is too intellectually dishonest to accept past history or acknowledge present realities.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  160. “Whether Palestinians/Arabs were forcibly expelled is at the time of it’s creation is certainly open to interpretation as you well know.”
    It’s not arguable at all. It’s simply a fact.
    “You also ignore the forcible ejection of Jews from Arab states at the time of Israel’s creation”
    …as a response to Israel’s creation.
    “Are the Israelis sending suicide bombers into restaurants and onto buses to strike terror into the Palestinian population?”
    No, they’re sending helicopter gunships.
    “The world powers following World War II legally created the state of Israel.”
    You can’t give away what isn’t yours to give. But still, why didn’t they do it in Europe? Why not throw three quarters of a million christian Germans off their land?
    The punishment wouldn’t be nearly enough, but it would have been something.

    sleepy (09c352)

  161. I should quit this.
    I’m out. Just tired.

    sleepy (09c352)

  162. sleepy’s lies continue –

    It’s not arguable at all. It’s simply a fact.
    – Bullshit. Many left encouraged by Arab propaganda about what would happen to them and in anticipation of the Arab war of liberation to come. Simply a fact.

    …as a response to Israel’s creation.
    – But you say elsewhere you can’t take what is not what is yours to give. You can’t have it both wats sleepy. Is it OK for the Arabs to take the property and land of Jews in their countries and expel them but then not OK for Israel to expel, accepting your allegation for the moment, Palestinians? You can’t gave it both ways in this argument sleepy. Yt’s intellectually dishonest as are most of your arguments.

    No, they’re sending helicopter gunships.
    – Can you point me to the unprovoked use of aggression by the Israelis describebd by non-Palestinian sources? I’m always interested in the survival techniques of countries surrounded by hostile neighbors with publicly professed disires to liquidate it.

    You can’t give away what isn’t yours to give.
    – They did. The country exists. Get over it. If you are arguing that the country does not legally exist you are arguing from the perspective of fantasy and there is no use continuing.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  163. sleepy has to be AF/blah, huh? The attitude is exactly the same.

    You guys don’t care about the important things. You really need to read [x book or article] and be informed like me. Oh, man, I’ve had enough. I’m outta here.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  164. Patterico – sleepy has admitted to have being banned here before.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  165. I can’t find evidence of that.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  166. […] be known as lovie2008, is one of the mostly leftist commenters on Patterico’s Pontifications, made a comment which just about says it all: There is a big difference between Hope and Change. Therein lies the mystery of Barack […]

    Common Sense Political Thought » Blog Archive » Emperor7 tells the truth! (73d96f)

  167. Emperor7 wrote:

    There is a big difference between Hope and Change. Therein lies the mystery of Barack Obama.

    OK, that’s a good one, so good it has become my new blog tagline! As much as people slam the Emperor, he sure got it right there.

    The blogger Dana (556f76)

  168. So many of sleepy’s “facts” have been shown to be figments of his imagination that its pretty hilarious when he labels a new one.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  169. “So many of sleepy’s “facts” have been shown to be figments of his imagination ”

    Give me a list please.

    sleepy (09c352)

  170. Patterico – Things got a little heated on the late December Civilian Casualties thread and I deliberately provoked sleepy:

    “I lost family in the camps”

    Did they fall out of the guard towers sleepy?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/30/2008 @ 10:41 pm
    __________________________________________

    As I said, there’s a line.

    “Did they fall out of the guard towers sleepy?”

    You going to police this one Pat, or just throw me out again when I use a four letter word?
    It’s the same every time.
    boring.

    Comment by sleepy — 12/30/2008 @ 10:45 pm

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  171. “So many of sleepy’s “facts” have been shown to be figments of his imagination ”

    Give me a list please.

    Comment by sleepy — 2/7/2009 @ 3:10 pm

    From this thread alone:

    Israelis were the first terrorists.
    Irgun and Lehi bombed more buses than Hamas.
    The 1967 war began with Israel’s preemptive strike.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  172. sleepy, your white phosporus as banned chemical weapon canard is another.

    Your comments never lack at least one made up “fact” and often have more than one. Often they are so obviously false as to be flat out lies by you.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  173. sleepy, please list 5 countries that exist, and 5 countries that don’t. please include israel on one of those lists.
    thanks.

    carlitos (bb4a62)

  174. lost in the spam filter

    sleepy (09c352)

  175. Well, daleyrocks, you guys seem to enjoy arguing with him. Since I’m now convinced it’s blah/AF, I’ll ban him again — unless a significant contingent of regular commenters objects.

    It’s not like he’s earned the right to be unbanned. He has instead just come back under a different name.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  176. The Geneva Convention of 1980 prohibits the use of white phosphorus as a weapon of war in civilian areas.
    Not as a chemical weapon but as an incendiary.

    sleepy (09c352)

  177. So somehow being a jew, having my family referred to as camp guards is permissible?

    You really are a scumbag.

    sleepy (09c352)

  178. #178 Patterico:

    unless a significant contingent of regular commenters objects.

    Oh, I have no objection.

    I find its constant anti-Semitism extremely boorish.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  179. Not only boorish, but worse still, tiresome and predictable.

    Not to mention propagandistic, and not very creatively so.

    It’s Patterico’s house. But if this person was banned, they should take it up with Patterico regarding getting the ban lifted.

    Eric Blair (1aa50b)

  180. Oh Good Lord.

    I’ve been really busy the last two weeks and barely have had time to make any comments, let alone read many, and already I’m bored with sleepy’s ridiculous arguments, let alone that Patterico thinks this is yet another recycled banned commenter.

    They just can’t quit us!

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer" and hoping for DRJ's eventual return) (75f68e)

  181. And also Patterico #178:

    Since I’m now convinced it’s blah/AF, I’ll ban him again — unless a significant contingent of regular commenters objects.

    No application for reinstament?

    Throw the troll out.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer" and hoping for DRJ's eventual return) (75f68e)

  182. Is anti-Muslim commentary tolerated here?

    Just asking.

    I’m pro-Jew, and I don’t mind saying it.

    America would be much less of a country without Jews, and the world much worse off, indeed. Judaism is one of the world’s richest, most liberal and, even, liberating religious traditions.

    But when it comes to Israel, I find a disturbing pattern in the thinking and writing of those who defend its attempts to depopulate Palestine of Arabs.

    Here’s how it works: If someone points out that Israel’s hyper-aggressive strategy is impractical, i.e. counteproductive, the apologist will respond with assertions of Israel’s moral superiority as a country that relies on drones, high tech missiles, a veiled nuclear threat and other massive firepower, rather than on untargeted bottle rockets, stones and suicide bombers. And they have a point, i.e. Israel has a moral right to defend itself.

    But the moral right just isn’t relevant to the question of whether hyper-military aggression is an effective long-term strategy.

    If someone points out that there are limits to Israel’s moral superiority and that such status calls for MORE not less mlitary restraint, the apologist points out that, as a practical matter, Israel is vulnerable, e.g. surrounded by hostile countries, vastly outnumbered, a “strategic” Western ally and so on. And they would have a point: Israel certainly is an ally and it’s certainly vulnerable: none of which speaks anything to the moral question.

    That’s why fact and reason often doesn’t go very far with Israel’s apologists. They apply moral standards to all the practical issues and practical standards to all the moral ones. Great way to avoid ever having to answer.

    Hax Vobiscum (edacf7)

  183. The Geneva Convention of 1980 prohibits the use of white phosphorus as a weapon of war in civilian areas.
    Not as a chemical weapon but as an incendiary.

    Israel’s use of White Phosphorous is not illegal.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  184. #185

    I’m pro-Jew, and I don’t mind saying it.

    With friends like you . . .

    But when it comes to Israel, I find a disturbing pattern in the thinking and writing of those who defend its attempts to depopulate Palestine of Arabs.

    Your statment assumes Israel is attempting to depopulate “Palestine” of Arabs. Check the population figures for Arabs in Israel and in the disputed territories since the founding of Israel.

    On the other hand who is it that has said they want to throw the Jews into the sea? And who has said they want to finish Hitler’s work?

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  185. “If someone points out that Israel’s hyper-aggressive strategy is impractical, i.e. counteproductive, the apologist will respond with assertions of Israel’s moral superiority as a country that relies on drones, high tech missiles, a veiled nuclear threat and other massive firepower, rather than on untargeted bottle rockets, stones and suicide bombers.”

    Hax – Is this a verbose attempt to make an argument for proportionality? Are you suggesting that Israel’s action’s sit better with you if the people trying to wipe it out of existence were better armed? Is that your argument here?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  186. “So somehow being a jew, having my family referred to as camp guards is permissible?”

    I have seen nothing to support sleepy’s contention that he is Jewish. Most Jews I know would be mortally embarrassed to post the kind of crap he has here.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  187. I have seen nothing to support sleepy’s contention that he is Jewish. Most Jews I know would be mortally embarrassed to post the kind of crap he has here.

    If he is really the guy with the name he gave earlier, he seems to be. Look at the links on his blog. Don’t they just scream ‘liberal self-hating jewish guy’? I bet he has a keffiyeh in all the colors of the rainbow.

    * Al Jazeera English
    * Angry Arab-As’ad AbuKhalil
    * Arab Links
    * Arabist
    * China Matters
    * Christie’s
    * Conflicts Forum
    * Craig Murray
    * Drummerworld
    * DSquared
    * EDB
    * Electronic Intifada
    * Helena Cobban
    * Historiae-Reidar Visser
    * Jerry Haber
    * Joshua Landis
    * London Review of Books
    * McMaster-Carr
    * Michel de Montaigne
    * Non Arab Arab
    * Raed Jarrar
    * Roads to Iraq
    * Savage Minds
    * Sign and Sight
    * The Constitution
    * The Prado
    * Tony Karon
    * U.S. and Them

    carlitos (bb4a62)

  188. more ‘deep thoughts’ from that blog.

    A military in the service of a democracy is a dictatorship in defense of freedom. What holds the relationship together is not laws but trust. Trust is a sphere or a zone of ambiguity, not a rule.
    When rules are all that’s left it’s over.

    That leaves me thinking – 1) someone has never raised a teenager. 2) every democracy since ancient greece has had an army. obviously, eliminating the military would eliminate democracy, since others aren’t really interested in our ‘deep thoughts’

    naivete times ten

    carlitos (bb4a62)

  189. carlitos – What, no Juan Cole?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  190. Juan Cole is a genius when it comes to Middle Eastern geopolitical history. He speaks arabic fluently, which is to say nearly well enough to speak with arabs.

    carlitos (bb4a62)

  191. And for that rainbow comment, I denounce myself.

    carlitos (bb4a62)

  192. carlitos – It’s too bad Michigan couldn’t dump him on Yale because of his lousy scholarship. He likes hob nobbing with those despots alright.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  193. Plus Cole hates him some Joooooos.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  194. As a Lutheran with a penchant for latkes and matzo-ball soup, I denounce Cole.

    carlitos (bb4a62)

  195. I haven’t had good matzo-ball soup since a couple years before my divorce. I need to find me a woman who makes the stuff.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)


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