Patterico's Pontifications

1/17/2009

NTSB Releases Details on the US Airways Ditching

Filed under: Current Events — DRJ @ 7:23 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

Three and one-half minutes. That’s how long it took from the moment the birds hit the aircraft until the plane was in the Hudson.

Those and other details were released today regarding US Airways Flight 1549. According to the NTSB, Captain Chesley Barrett “Sully” Sullenberger III intentionally ditched in the Hudson River because he knew he couldn’t get back to the airport and he didn’t want to jeopardize the urban population:

“Co-pilot Jeff Skiles, who was flying the plane at takeoff, saw the birds coming in perfect formation, and made note of it. Sullenberger looked up, and in an instant his windscreen was filled with big, dark-brown birds.

“His instinct was to duck,” said NTSB board member Kitty Higgins, recounting their interview. Then there was a thump, the smell of burning birds, and silence as both aircraft engines cut out.

The account illustrated how quickly things deteriorated after the bump at 3,000 feet, and the pilots’ swift realization that returning to LaGuardia or getting to another airport was impossible.

With both engines out, Higgins said, flight attendants described complete silence in the cabin, “like being in a library.” A smoky haze and the odor of burning metal or electronics filled the plane.

The blow had come out of nowhere. The NTSB said radar data confirmed that the aircraft intersected a group of “primary targets,” almost certainly birds, as the jet climbed over the Bronx. Those targets had not been on the radar screen of the air traffic controller who approved the departure, Higgins said.

After the bird impact, Sullenberger told investigators he immediately took over flying from his co-poilot and made a series of command decisions.

Returning to LaGuardia, he quickly realized, was out. So was nearby Teterboro Airport, where he had never flown before, and which would require him to take the jet over densely populated northern New Jersey.

“We can’t do it,” he told air traffic controllers. “We’re gonna be in the Hudson.”

While the first officer tried to restart the engines, Sullenberger glided over the George Washington Bridge and elected to land near the ferry terminal, so the passengers would have a better chance at rescue. It happened so fast that they never flipped the Airbus’ “ditch switch” that sealed the bottom openings on the aircraft to make it more seaworthy.

— DRJ

54 Responses to “NTSB Releases Details on the US Airways Ditching”

  1. Amazing job by this pilot. And hardcore as all heck on so many levels.

    Andrew (8a94e5)

  2. How did he know where the Ferry Terminal is?

    AD (c28272)

  3. Certain landmarks are landmarks, even to those who haven’t seen them from the sky before. I remember seeing American Airlines Arena from the sky, even though I didn’t know there was an arena with that name at the time.

    His being a commercial pilot for all those years, I’m certain he saw the ferries coming and going on many occasions. No doubt, he knew where the terminals were.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  4. From the article:

    NBC said “Today” show host Matt Lauer would interview Sullenberger from Washington on Monday, a day before President-elect Barack Obama is inaugurated.

    Is it too soon to suggest that Obama was responsible for planting those geese so that this story would create a distraction from Tim Geithner’s tax troubles? I officially question the timing.

    Pablo (99243e)

  5. Raises trhe musical question from before there were TSA’s….

    Does anybody watch the primary radar anymore?

    Larry Sheldon (86b2e1)

  6. The blow had come out of nowhere. The NTSB said radar data confirmed that the aircraft intersected a group of “primary targets,” almost certainly birds, as the jet climbed over the Bronx. Those targets had not been on the radar screen of the air traffic controller who approved the departure, Higgins said.

    Does that answer your question, Larry?

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  7. The guy is a hero. But, I am pleased to know he didn’t perform perfectly. The equipment performed magnificently, which gives hope that the engineering safety redundancies can work without need of a kick-butt pilot.

    The other thing I really like is that he seems to be cut from the same cloth as the many thousands of military heroes who do not see themselves as such.

    Courage, brilliance, and humility. More, please.

    Ed (39e6e8)

  8. I keep waiting for the blow-back.

    But, really, God bless this man. Everyone came out alive. He had to make split-second decisions and everything came out alright.

    Ag80 (4ac0a4)

  9. No blowback but yay I wanted to get out of this stinking stupid city and look at me I’m in a filthy river and better and better there’s our gay-assed media in my face is probably not what a lot of them were thinking.

    happyfeet (4eacbc)

  10. “… he didn’t perform perfectly …”

    Yeh, he forgot to seal the bottom of the plane to keep it afloat longer.
    I’ll bet they really emphasize that on his next performance review.

    ferry terminal…
    Yes, I would imagine that he had seen them from the air previously, or on the chart.
    It just emphasizes that the most important computer system in an airplane is a small, 10-15 pound mobile unit that is completely self-contained, and can process countless bits of data simultaneously without overheating.

    “Sully’s” accomplishment on the Hudson ranks right up there with the miraculous landing in Sioux Falls some time back. Of course, that pilot had power, just no flight controls except the throttles.

    Extraordinary men overcoming extreme circumstances.

    Well Done!

    AD (c28272)

  11. Oh, the possibility of blow-back has already been raised.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  12. What amazes me is that he was able to turn the jet around, line it up with the Hudson, glide over the GW bridge and settle it perfectly level in the water, all without stalling on just the jet’s momentum.

    That’s some piloting.

    MU789 (c852bc)

  13. Stalling is the wrong word, obviously, but you are right. His ability to handle all the maneuvers necessary on a dead jetliner to perform what he did definitely deserves accolades.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  14. There are two video’s over at PowerLine from Coast Guard surveillance cameras – one in Manhattan, one in ‘Jersey.
    One shows that the first ferry-craft arrived on the scene and was recovering passengers no more than three minutes after splashdown. Three minutes later there were two more ferry-craft on scene taking on passengers from the crash.
    Excellent seamanship complimenting excellent piloting.

    AD (c28272)

  15. Thank God everyone is okay. A top notch job. I guess those years of training worked. Says a lot about the Air Force Academy’s training, doesn’t it.

    Joe (17aeff)

  16. Captain Chesley Barrett Sullenberger III. His parents were expecting big things I think.

    happyfeet (4eacbc)

  17. #13 John Hitchcock:

    Stalling is the wrong word

    MU789 is correct: stalls after loss of power at low altitude (generally on takeoff) are the primary cause of a forced landing becoming an ‘uncontrolled landing.’ Ie, the kind you don’t walk away from~ because there is not enough total energy in momemtum or altitude to recover.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  18. I tried it today a dozen times in FSX SP2 with the A321, throttling to 0 at 2800 ft. I crashed it every time. Keep trying til I get it right.

    gp (45518e)

  19. Have to remember, he flew F-4’s in the AF.
    The F-4 is said to be proof, that with enough power, a barn door will fly.

    AD (fcdea3)

  20. The NTSB declared Friday that both engines were missing, while the image of the plane being hoisted up today seems to show the starboard engine attached.

    Perhaps it was placed under the wing after being recovered by divers??

    steve (11c43a)

  21. steve,

    I read today that they initially thought the second engine had fallen off because they couldn’t see it in the murky water. Later, though, they realized the engine was still on the wing but the sediment prevented them from seeing it.

    That also makes it easier to understand why they are having trouble finding the first engine. The divers are having to look for it by feeling for it.

    DRJ (345e40)

  22. Reportedly he’s a licensed glider pilot. I’m sure that was a factor in this success.

    Steven Den Beste (99cfa1)

  23. “No blowback but yay I wanted to get out of this stinking stupid city and look at me I’m in a filthy river and better and better there’s our gay-assed media in my face is probably not what a lot of them were thinking.”

    What?

    imdw (513533)

  24. Steven Den Beste,

    I hadn’t seen that. Is there anything this guy can’t do?

    DRJ (345e40)

  25. oh. nevermind. sentences are hard enough and sometimes things just make sense in my head besides.

    happyfeet (4eacbc)

  26. Let’s not forget Jeff Stiles, the co-pilot and the flight attendents…they performed brilliantly as well.

    drdave (4bd854)

  27. Absolutely. Good point, drdave.

    DRJ (345e40)

  28. “The blow had come out of nowhere. The NTSB said radar data confirmed that the aircraft intersected a group of “primary targets,” almost certainly birds, as the jet climbed over the Bronx. Those targets had not been on the radar screen of the air traffic controller who approved the departure, Higgins said.”

    Something is wrong with that statement because radar does not detect birds.

    Pons Asinorum (769f0f)

  29. #12 Comment by MU789 — 1/17/2009 @ 8:34 pm

    What amazes me is that he was able to turn the jet around, line it up with the Hudson, glide over the GW bridge and settle it perfectly level in the water, all without stalling on just the jet’s momentum.

    That is exactly it.

    All the decisions he had to make before deciding to ditch, then all the checklist items that (ideally) should be performed (but in practice usually cannot), then making The Correct Decision, all the while keeping the nose down (which is a contrary instinct) to keep from stalling (but not too much, just right), then thinking “I’ll set her right by the ferry skippers”, then making the ditch. The ability to judge distance above the water is tough. There were so many ways to crack that hull (then it is game over, she is going to sink) by stalling even a few feet above the deck…or by coming in too steep…or by dipping the left or right wing… one shot to get it right. All of these decisions and actions were made inside of a couple of minutes.

    I am not even doing justice to the skills he demonstrated.

    Pons Asinorum (769f0f)

  30. As the inauguration draws near, it is a bit of good Karma for us to be reminded that there are true heroes out there.

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  31. #28 Pons Asinorum:

    Something is wrong with that statement because radar does not detect birds.

    Difficult with a radar intended to pick up something the size of an aircraft, but approach radars typically use higher frequencies and short pulsewidths for greater discrimination so it’s not at all unusual to be able to detect a flock of birds.

    #29:

    That is exactly it.

    Ain’t it though.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  32. The old saying that “Luck is when preparedness meets opportunity” was never truer than in this instance. If you read the guy’s background, including experience as a glider pilot, training in crisis management etc, you’d be hard pressed to find someone who was more prepared for this particular moment.

    In this case the passengers were lucky indeed.

    Mike Myers (674050)

  33. IT:

    It shows the true heroes don’t work in D.C., yet most of our buildings and monuments are named in honor of politicians.

    I say quit honoring the politicians and start honoring more of the everyday heroes.

    Do we really need another outhouse named after Robert Byrd?

    MU789 (c852bc)

  34. Another factor; that the plane ended up with one engine attached and no one killed.

    If one engine had come off at splash-down then momentum and the drag of the remaining engine would have violently spun the plane around and cracked the fuselage. That missing engine must have hung on until just toward the end. Another miracle.

    Gajim (e39b35)

  35. “His instinct was to duck,” said NTSB board member Kitty Higgins, recounting their interview.

    When he hit geese, his instinct was to duck? But of course.

    Official Internet Data Office (c048e2)

  36. I tried it today a dozen times in FSX SP2 with the A321, throttling to 0 at 2800 ft.

    Does the software even allow for wheels up or water landings?

    If you are clearing the bridge and reaching ground level without stalling I’d call it close enough. Water impact is not exactly a predictable event.

    ThomasD (1659da)

  37. Another issue in all this is the fact that ex-military pilots are a smaller and smaller proportion of airline pilots as the older ones retire. I would be in favor of allowing the ex-mil pilots to fly until 65 just to keep more of them up there. My brother-in-law flies for American and says it is an increasing worry. Read about the Air Florida crash for comparison. They were both low hours pilots.

    On 9/11, the USAF had a total of 14 jet fighters available for air defense in the entire US. The number of active duty pilots is getting smaller and smaller. The airlines are dependent on flying schools for new pilots now.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  38. “Does the software even allow for wheels up or water landings?” Yes. You can set the option for how crashes and damage are handled. The way mine is set up, if you hit the water at a non-survivable speed or attitude, it “bounces” you back up 500 ft altitude. If you hit the bridge you pass thru it transparently. On my best attempt, I did hit the bridge, but bellied smoothly onto the water at ~ 150KIAS at 0 pitch. I gather Capt Sully landed pitched up about 12 degrees. FSX is a good value PC game for only about $40, but you’ll soon want to shell out the $100+ for a flight yoke.

    gp (45518e)

  39. My understanding from talking to other commercial pilots who were deadheading during my business flights was that most dislike the Airbus, due to the absence of fly – by – wire controls in the cockpit. They’ve often complained that the computerized yokes take too long to react to sudden and drastic movements by the pilot – as in emergency avoidance maneuvers to avoid other aircraft and in incidents like this one. I know that the new Boeings also have more computerized functions, but that they still give the pilot more flexibility via the controls and also offer more manuel override functions compared to Airbus.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  40. MikeK: “I would be in favor of allowing the ex-mil pilots to fly until 65”

    Good news: the mandatory retirement age for airline pilots was raised from 60 to 65 in December 2007.

    Jobius (8b5dfe)

  41. The rules for flight status have slowly been liberalized over the years. About 25 years ago, I helped get an airline captain back on flight status after an aortic aneurysm repair. Prior to that, any major vascular surgery was enough to ground them permanently. I’m glad to hear the age limit change. We need these guys. They have to pass the same flight physical as the younger guys.

    MIke K (2cf494)

  42. Got to give credit to Sully and Skiles in safely getting the plane down…the flight crew in getting everyone off the plane after landing, and to the ferry crews that got to the scene as quickly as they did. This will probably be one of those case studies for flying schools (both military and civilian) that will be studied for years to come.

    fmfnavydoc (59b1f9)

  43. After that Chicago DC 10 crash when an engine came off during takeoff, we used a term in the operating room; “The DC 10 cockpit syndrome.” What we meant by that is a situation where decisions come so fast that the crew (or the OR team) can’t make them fast enough to keep up. That was the situation in that DC 10 as no one had simulated losing an engine on takeoff. I’ve seen such situations with trauma cases. Some we got lucky, some we didn’t. This New York story was such a situation and the right guy was there.

    Here is my concern. I’m watching the playoff game between Arizona and Philadelphia. The commercials are even more annoying than usual. They are also worrying me because these people seem to have better sources of information than I have about what young people, under 30 say, are interested in. Is this the generation that is getting ready to run our economy ? I’m sure I’m just an old grouch but, Jesus Christ ! These people are slackers and dim wits. Captain Sully is 57. I’m almost 71. I’ve got five kids from 43 to 18. I don’t know where we are going but this group elected Obama and I wonder if they are capable of running a modern society.

    It’s worrying.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  44. Mike K,

    Most of the recent generation of kids come from families of 1-2 kids with helicopter parents who have hovered over everything they do. They have been protected, encouraged, complimented, and were rarely allowed to fail. For most of their lives, they’ve lived in an era when wages, the stock market and our standard of living have increased. Even the poorest kids have gadgets and comfort that were Disney “Future World” dreams in our day.

    These kids have accomplished many things in their lives but they haven’t learned much the hard way. Now it’s time for them to learn some lessons the hard way. It will be a rude awakening but they will learn and they will be better off because of it. And because they are young, they will adjust and deal with this new reality. It may take a generation for it all to sink in, but I have confidence in them.

    DRJ (345e40)

  45. #13 Comment by EW1(SG) — 1/18/2009 @ 4:39 am

    Difficult with a radar intended to pick up something the size of an aircraft, but approach radars typically use higher frequencies and short pulsewidths for greater discrimination so it’s not at all unusual to be able to detect a flock of birds.

    Thanks for clearing that up for me EW.

    Pons Asinorum (769f0f)

  46. Comment by Dmac — 1/18/2009 @ 9:54 am

    “… due to the absence of fly – by – wire controls in the cockpit…”

    Don’t you mean to say, because of the preponderance of fly-by-wire, and lack of physical controls…?
    The Airbus series is notorious for being an Atari-joy-stick cockpit.

    AD (1593f9)

  47. DRJ, I worry about their work ethic, especially in sciences. My kids are doing OK but I do see their privileged classmates in private school. Some of my daughter’s friends would be dropped off to play by their mothers driving Ferrari cabriolets. I’ve heard a few complaints about the size of our house, etc. My disposable funds went to tuition and ex-wives so it wasn’t a matter of choice. I just don’t see many kids with the work ethic I think we need.

    Politics is reflecting this lack of seriousness, on both sides. I have agreed with the criticisms of Bush being the son of money but he did show guts and self restraint so I give him a pass. Gore is a worse example. Obama does seem to have made the most of the sacrifices of his grandmother. I just wish I knew more about him and his thinking. He might turn out to be OK but it will be a fluke. He was elected by a generation of slackers, Michael Moore’s favorite term and true of his people.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  48. I’ve seen the same work ethic issues in our children’s friends. Many of them will fight reality when they enter the work force and will look for the easy way out. But real life will hit them sooner or later, and the ones who won’t accept it will end up living with mommy and daddy.

    DRJ (345e40)

  49. It is the inevitable weakenss in parenting that we want to provide for our children what we ourselves didn’t have. Unfortunately it’s the provision part that can do the damage. Providing opportunities to earn the material items, opportunities to save their earned money, opportunities to make their own choices about what they wish to purchase and what they wish to forego or continue to save for – these are healthy ways to provide.

    Most of us are fortunate to be able to offer these opportunities for our children. Too many in this generation of plenty want to skip this important part of the equation. What a way to not prepare one for real life…but then that’s generally more about the parent working off some guilt rather than what’s in the child’s best interest.

    Dana (137151)

  50. I agree, Dana, but I think this is also the result of 40 years of a misguided educational system that will take a long time to correct.

    DRJ (345e40)

  51. The misguided edjumakation cistern will not be corrected so long as there is a monopoly and “freedom of (educational) choice” is denied. So, we are continuing to slide and there is no upturn in sight… other than the large numbers of home-schoolers and parent-paid private-schoolers.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  52. DRJ, I think the primary responsibility lies with the parents. In the formative years, there is beyond ample opportunity to begin to instill and train a child in the expectations and need for a work ethic. Yes, education is of course misguided but it’s effects have been limited to those who were more than willing to abdicate their own responsibilities of parenting. This generation is not only pampered and spoiled but has moved far beyond abdication to a complete expectation that the government will take care of them.

    Dana (137151)

  53. Dana, it’s tough to overcome the peer pressure. My daughter is going through this at U of Arizona right now. I sent my daughter this article last fall and she said it was exactly what she was seeing in college. In case the subscription wall kicks in:

    As a reserved evangelical from Colorado Springs, Colo., I was shocked by a lot of things at Tufts when I entered in the fall of 2003. What shocked me more than anything, however, was the way women treated other women. I regularly heard young women refer to each other using the most obscene and degrading insults. I observed females encouraging others to binge drink and then berating those who couldn’t hold their liquor. At breakfast on the weekends, I often overheard young women discussing their shame after feeling pressured by their girlfriends to participate in a degrading activity, such as a lingerie-themed or “secretaries and bosses” party. One year, a sorority actually commanded its pledges to strip to their underwear and allow fraternity brothers to mark the physical flaws on their bodies with permanent ink.

    Contrary to the feminist narrative about men being responsible for the oppression of women, nearly every instance of female misery I encountered at Tufts seemed to be instigated initially by another woman. My junior year, a controversial joke about rape was published in the student humor journal while a woman was editor in chief.

    Such a hostile environment is not unique to Tufts. The Delta Zeta women at DePauw University in Greencastle, Ind., last year asked unattractive and unpopular sisters to leave the sorority. In her memoir, “Smashed: Story of a Drunken Girlhood” (2005), Koren Zailckas, a recent graduate of Syracuse University and a recovering alcoholic, sets a scene of young women at that upstate school not only encouraging one another to drink to the point of illness or blackout as a way to forge friendships but also competing with one another to be the most sexually adventurous.

    This is what she saw and, while we are not evangelicals, I don’t think you have to be very religious to have self respect. She learned about “the walk of shame” the first two weeks of school, even though she wasn’t in the dorm. For those who don’t have college age kids, that is the girl walking back to her own room in the morning still wearing the clothes she wore the night before when she went to the boy’s room.

    The boys are watching this and learning a lesson I did not learn in my college days. Of course, dinosaurs still walked the earth when I was a freshman.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  54. Don’t you mean to say, because of the preponderance of fly-by-wire, and lack of physical controls…?

    Yes sir, that’s what I meant to say – bad communication on my part.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)


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