Patterico's Pontifications

1/11/2009

Joe the Plumber in Israel

Filed under: International — DRJ @ 9:10 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

PJ Media’s Joe “the Plumber” Wurzelbacher is reporting from Sderot, Israel:

“The people of Sderot “can’t do normal things day to day,” like get soap in their eyes in the shower, for fear a rocket might come in, Wurzelbacher said. “I’m sure they’re taking quick showers. I know I would.”

He also wondered why Israel waited so long to act. “I know if I were a citizen here, I’d be damned upset.” He described himself as a “peaceloving man,” but added, “when someone hits me, I’m going to unload on the boy. And if the rest of the world doesn’t understand that, then I’m sorry.”

Joe also had advice for the media:

“Do you think this is normal, the way you cover this conflict and give away information to your enemy?” he asked the journalists that gathered around him. “It makes me sick to see the way you behave – you guys need to be protective of your homes, your children, your family.”

“I am angry,” he said, “and this is why I came here.”

I know this drives liberals crazy — they think we’re rednecks. Maybe we are but I love this guy.

— DRJ

249 Responses to “Joe the Plumber in Israel”

  1. Man, I am impressed with Joe. Just as I expected, he’s mainly there as a contrast to the lame and uninformative media we’ve already got there. Mission accomplished, then.

    I have no idea why anyone attempted to claim he was unqualified to do that. If the other media orgs think we need a different approach to Joe, they should go in there and show us… what they really want is for journalism to be an elite liberal thing. It shouldn’t be, not in 2009 with cellphone cams and youtube.

    Althouse noted how this move reinforced her happiness at not being associated with PJM. She should be embarrassed at that sentiment.

    Joco (4cdfb7)

  2. He is the perfect Republican spokesman.

    steve (2f635c)

  3. Earlier this week Sharon at Common Sense Political Thought wrote a tidy piece re journalistic qualifications. In light of the straightup simplicity of Joe the Plumber’s observations made thus far, her points resonate even more. Bottom line, the left just can’t stand a mere mortal being so presumptuous in assuming he can do what they the selected few, can.

    “First of all, there’s no certification to become a journalist. That means you don’t need any education whatsoever to publish your thoughts. Your nail specialist at least has to get a license from the state to practice. But journalists? Nope. Any guy or girl can be a reporter.”

    “What makes good reporters is a natural curiosity, a desire for truth, and a personality that allows a person to ask inconvenient questions, like how increasing taxes on business owners isn’t punishing success.”

    Dana (137151)

  4. 10,000 left wing ladies fainted at reading that column. They are delicate flowers, you know. Mentioning sexual differences in math aptitude causes female left wing full professors to vomit or faint.

    Mike K (ee3203)

  5. Someone starting out to report an inter-religious conflict by saying, “Being a Christian I’m pretty well protected by God, I believe” is clearly worth taking seriously.

    Christianity means bad things won’t happen to you.

    steve (2f635c)

  6. Steve, you are extremely intolerant of other points of view and are not compatible with civilization.

    Here in America, we respect Muslims, Jews, and Christians (among others), and don’t claim someone isn’t worth respect just because they have a bit of faith. sorry you aren’t up to it, but it’s not about whether someone is right or wrong. Free speech, and freedom of religion, is about groups of different people working together without going nuts.

    Peter Jennings was a high school dropout and became a distinguished reporter. Journalism is simply not that hard if you have the heart for it. Joe clearly has the heart for it, since he completely outwitted Barack Obama with one question. Of course, the democratic media organ refused to even discuss Obama’s hideous and idiotic answer to the question, and decided that the big story had to be about Joe, some random dude who had balls.

    So I guess you have to hate Joe now, since your betters have told you he’s some kind of monster. How dare he go out and FLIPPING SPEAK FREELY. Why, he made Obama look bad! And he’s a CHRISTIAN with illogical views of divine intervention! He’s stupid in the same way Rev Martin Luther King Jr was!

    Joco (4cdfb7)

  7. Joe is following in the footsteps of angry populists like Bill O’Reilly and Shep Smith. O’Reilly was the pugnacious fighter for “the folks” and Smith made his mark in New Orleans by shouting to anyone who would listen about the needs of some folks on a dang overpass. They forcefully communicated simple truths and were seen to be “one of us.”

    Let’s see how long Joe can actually remain a struggling plumber who cares not for the limelight.

    I can’t think of any substantial disagreement with any of Joe’s philosophies. I am just concerned that he will be co-opted by the false idols of fame and fortune, and the truth he is expressing will be lost in the story of Joe himself.

    Ed (a3710e)

  8. Ed, that’s probably inevitable.

    It’s true that Joe has a lofty goal if he aims to become a reputable media figure. Everything is stacked against him, including, as you note, human nature.

    But it’s not like the right is winning the journalism contest… so we might as well hope for the best with this yahoo. I assume he’s got tons of behind the scenes help from intelligent people. PJM is full of very savvy folks.

    Joco (4cdfb7)

  9. I don’t think Samuel Wurzelbacher is a redneck. I think he’s an idiot. And I feel a little sorry for him, because he’s playing a clown’s role.

    Do yourself a favor and watch this video. It’s utter nonsense. The man went to Israel to report on a war that, apparently, he should be ‘abolished’ from reporting on.

    Bill (4e9868)

  10. Is his reporting unbiased? What is the difference between a reporter/journalist and spokesperson?

    Paul Hsu (646236)

  11. I think Bill is the fool. Obviously, Joe is talking about not allowing reporters to reveal secret war plans to the enemy through reporting. Duh.

    luagha (58416f)

  12. The mainstream media are dying. The left-wing journalists who used to control the narrative are being laid off in droves — and finding that their “skills” are worthless in finding an honest job.

    They look at Joe the Plumber and they see the future of news. Of course they are terrified.

    Evil Pundit (843b74)

  13. Paul Hsu, generally, conservatives aren’t demanding that the New York Times and the LA Times have no bias. they are objecting to the lie that they can cover their bias up and be totally authoritative. Oh, and the lies and sloppiness… we don’t like that either.

    But it’s OK for Joe to go there with a bias. Because we all know of it. I think things are so much better that way.

    Bill, try again. Joe isn’t demanding anyone abolish free speech. He’s noting the well documented tendancy of media covering conflicts involving Israel to disclose things that hurt Israel’s efforts. It is obviously very easy to report on a war without disclosing such information. He’s reporting on a very interesting aspect of the war that doesn’t get enough coverage, isn’t he?

    Apparently, it’s not ok for him to say things you don’t like to hear.

    Joco (4cdfb7)

  14. With all due respect, DRJ, Joe is a tool, and you’d be sh*tting bricks if he was biased against your preffered POV instead of for it. The problem with him isn’t his redneckery but his penchant for saying things that are both extremely hostile (the election of Barack Obama will be the death of Israel!!!) and really stupid.

    Paul Hsu, generally, conservatives aren’t demanding that the New York Times and the LA Times have no bias. they are objecting to the lie that they can cover their bias up and be totally authoritative.

    I love this particular flavor of happy horsesh*t doublespeak. Yeah, folks here are just apple-solutely cool with the Dkos and the HuffPo. The good folks at NYT should just *admit* to their sins, and then, you’d be totally satisfied if they committed them just as much! More, even!

    glasnost (ba5787)

  15. 7

    Here in America, we respect Muslims, Jews, and Christians (among others),

    Really? Why would I respect Muslims? Have you read the Koran?

    Watch Jaco disappear from the thread now.

    j curtis (840e18)

  16. […] he could teach the media reporting from those locales how to do it right as well” as well as DRJ guest-posting at Patterico’s Pontifications: I know this drives liberals crazy — they think […]

    PoliBlog: A Rough Draft of my Thoughts » Joe the Reporter (ab24b9)

  17. He can’t be worse than other celebrity journalists, like Sean Penn or Bono.

    Bradley J. Fikes (0ea407)

  18. glasnost, way to see things in a comment that aren’t there. And thanks for dropping by to express your intolerance for differing viewpoints. I’m glad to know you’re apple-solutely cool with it.

    Pablo (99243e)

  19. I think for an ordinary guy Joe’s pretty extraordinary. It was pure chance that brought him into the public eye but it is the degree to which he cares that keeps him there.

    backwoods conservative (23cdd2)

  20. In a world where Keith Olbermann can make $7.5 million a year for sneering and emoting his bizzaro world version of Teh Nooze, anyone can step in front of a camera and wield a microphone.

    Pablo (99243e)

  21. PALIN-PLUMBER 2012!!!

    Comment by J. Raymond Wright — 1/12/2009 @ 5:00 am

    You can’t have that much common sense in one place. Something might actually get done.

    backwoods conservative (23cdd2)

  22. “He also wondered why Israel waited so long to act. “I know if I were a citizen here, I’d be damned upset.”

    They should convert. God protects Christians.

    “I know this drives liberals crazy — they think we’re rednecks.”

    I think this is the attraction here.

    imdw (688568)

  23. Joe’s biggest trial won’t come at the hands of effette leftist media snobs, nor will it come because someone will reveal his ignorance (He isn’t actually, but a rather straightforward fella.)
    Rather his downfall will be when he plied with the narcotic of fame and ridiculous corporate largesse. Once they throw fame and money at this poor guy, he’s done for.
    Mark my words.

    pitchforksntorches (12026e)

  24. Guess he’s not returning back to plumbing anytime soon.

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  25. imdw, it’s kinda funny how Joe’s probably making very little, and working for a tiny operation, and yet his little comment (which isn’t extremely unusual, though illogical) is so alarming to some.

    How many stupid things does Whoopi say on The View? Or Obama on the campaign trail? Frankly, Obama or Rev Wright would be just as likely to say something like ‘I believe God will protect me’, but that’s OK whereas Joe’s is some kind of red flag.

    Why? Because Joe’s probably more sincere about it? I have no idea, but I have some idea that Joe is a lot more reasonable than many who earn millions doing a much worse job at journalism.

    Joco (4cdfb7)

  26. j curtis, do I have a record of dropping from threads?

    And you completely missed the point while acting like a jerk. It isn’t relevant what’s in the Quran (which I haven’t read all of, and only in English anyway). It’s only relevant that an individual is worthy of respect and tolerance unless he personally violates someone’s rights.

    You didn’t understand that? You don’t respect anyone unless you find their religion meritorious? What the hell is the matter with people like you?

    Joco (4cdfb7)

  27. They should convert. God protects Christians.

    He did a pretty fair job for them back in ’67…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  28. What the hell is the matter with people like you?

    Christ, where to start…

    Did you bring a lunch? We could be here a while…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  29. As much as I support Israel, I don’t like the infusion of American politics into the matter. Joe the Plumber will end up doing more harm than good in this current crisis. Someone should tell him to find somewhere else to go and polish his experience for elected office. (Which, let’s be honest, that’s what he is doing. He is a politician.) I don’t see why he had to go there. He needs to be sent back home before he does more damage.

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  30. Which, let’s be honest, that’s what he is doing. He is a politician.

    No, he’s a plumber. There’s a difference.

    While both deal with shit, a plumber tries to make it go away, while a politician just increases the supply.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  31. What damage is that, lovey?

    Pablo (99243e)

  32. love2008, I think you have a reasonable view, but foreign correspondents report all over the world. I don’t think Joe the Plumber is really injecting American Politics into Israel from Israel’s POV… he is, of course, injecting Israel into American politics.

    And you’re probably right that he’s a politician of sorts. He is a smart one, if so, since he’s doing something hollywoodish to gain foreign policy credentials. If Palin had been on TV for a while overseas, she wouldn’t have encountered much resistance to the idea she was well versed on the topic. He’s just adapting to a culture that finds media experience to be much more important than it is.

    While I assume some of the Israelis who are aware of Joe find him annoying, they are probably more annoyed with the NYT style reporters who are there to do real harm, or the 700 club types who are tehre to make a lot of money. I just can’t buy that Joe is doing ‘damage’.

    Joco (4cdfb7)

  33. He needs to be sent back home before he does more damage.

    Israelis are more concerned now about damage from Qassams than “damage” from a newly minted conservative journalist who has every right to do what he’s doing, agree with him or not.

    Bradley J. Fikes (0ea407)

  34. What damage is that, lovey?

    Comment by Pablo — 1/12/2009 @ 6:08 am
    Damage to a quick resolution of this conflict. We don’t want to start a third world war, do we? America should not be seen as brazenly taking sides in this matter. Even though we all know we support israel. I think he is not representing our best interest there. We need to be seen to be making peace not exacerbating tension. Just my humble opinoin.

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  35. Comment by Scott Jacobs — 1/12/2009 @ 6:05 am
    Scotty, is Joe the Plumber still a Plumber? Is this how plumbing work is done? Because I sure as heck would love get into plumbing myself!

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  36. America should not be seen as brazenly taking sides in this matter. Even though we all know we support israel. I think he is not representing our best interest there. We need to be seen to be making peace not exacerbating tension. Just my humble opinoin.

    Comment by love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 — 1/12/2009 @ 6:19 am

    Peace comes to those who are willing to pay the price to get it. Right now, Israel is doing a good job of paying that price. I think they should continue, and I have no objections to Joe reporting on their efforts to do so.

    backwoods conservative (23cdd2)

  37. America should not be seen as brazenly taking sides in this matter.

    Yeah — why should we stand beside a free nation being attacked by murderous lunatics!

    Rob Crawford (04f50f)

  38. Damage to a quick resolution of this conflict.

    I have several suggestions as to how such a thing might be done, but since the CURRENT response is unpopular, mine would surely be less so.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  39. How are you going to play the part of a negotiator and agent of peace when one side thinks you are biased against them? If not America should forfeit the role of peace negotiator in the middle east and come out and join Israel in the fight to stamp out this evil terrorists. But we can’t have it both ways.

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  40. Comment by Scott Jacobs — 1/12/2009 @ 6:33 am
    Spill it, Scotty. You are among friends. :)

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  41. Well, he’s surrounded by pacifists who all want peace,
    They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease.
    Now, they wouldn’t hurt a fly.
    To hurt one they would weep.
    They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.

    Bradley J. Fikes (0ea407)

  42. 900 Palestinians versus 13 Israelis…

    Rob, which is the side of murderous lunatics? Oh, and have you completed those plans to move to the West Bank, yet?

    Strangely, had you said both sides had murderous lunatics, you’d be getting somewhere.

    Here’s something odd: rockets were launched from Gaza today. Besides destroying schools, adding to Joe the plumber curriculum vitae, and making Rob Crawford and Pablo feel good about violence, what the f**k is this war accomplishing, because it sure ain’t stopping rocket fire.

    love2008, certain people on this board are less interested in peace in Israel, then Likud or Hamas is. They could give a crap about a ceasefire or a peace deal.

    timb (2add5b)

  43. Who says war correspondents don’t experience Stockholm syndrome ?

    Joe obviously believes most of the media are fully sympathetic to their captors.

    Neo (cba5df)

  44. Here’s something odd: rockets were launched from Gaza today. Besides destroying schools, adding to Joe the plumber curriculum vitae, and making Rob Crawford and Pablo feel good about violence, what the f**k is this war accomplishing, because it sure ain’t stopping rocket fire.

    You are so close to getting the point… So close, but yet so far…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  45. Rob, which is the side of murderous lunatics?

    Hamas.

    Pablo (99243e)

  46. . . .what the f**k is this war accomplishing, because it sure ain’t stopping rocket fire.

    Senior Israeli officials said for the first time in the war that they believed that the Hamas military wing was beginning to crack and that Hamas leaders inside Gaza were looking for a cease-fire. News reports said Hamas fired at least one missile out of Gaza into southern Israel without causing casualties. . .

    Another senior Israeli security official said that Israeli soldiers had “confirmed through their sights” the killing of 300 Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters on the ground in Gaza, and that Hamas units were making mistakes and fighting without clear direction.

    Bradley J. Fikes (0ea407)

  47. In a world where Keith Olbermann can make $7.5 million a year for sneering and emoting his bizzaro world version of Teh Nooze, anyone can step in front of a camera and wield a microphone.

    Comment by Pablo — 1/12/2009 @ 4:56 am

    Yeah, but Olbermann has credentials. Like… um… Sportscenter! And that Boston Market commercial.

    Because I sure as heck would love get into plumbing myself!

    Comment by love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 — 1/12/2009 @ 6:22 am

    Well, you’re really good at filling it up.

    Jim Treacher (796deb)

  48. Pablo, do you believe this current assault will be the end of Hamas? Do you think they are just going to stop firing rockets after suffering so much casualties from Israel?

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  49. Besides destroying schools, adding to Joe the plumber curriculum vitae, and making Rob Crawford and Pablo feel good about violence, what the f**k is this war accomplishing, because it sure ain’t stopping rocket fire.

    Really?

    Relying on unnamed sources in the Israel Defence Forces, the Israeli daily Ha’aretz reported yesterday that the number of rockets launched had been halved, compared with the first day of Operation Cast Lead, before going on to report a total of 22 rockets fired on Sunday.

    But, according to the Los Angeles Times, Israel’s domestic security chief, Yuval Diskin, told a government briefing on Sunday that Hamas rockets had fallen from 100 to 200 a day before the military offensive to about 20 a day.

    Figures published by the non-government Intelligence and Terrorism Information Centre, near Tel Aviv, and in news reports for the four days up to Sunday, show that after an initial decline, the rocket fire has remained at a stubborn average of about 30 a day since December 27.

    In the five days before January, according to the ITIC data, there were 40 to 60 rockets a day. On Sunday, according to Ha’aretz, 22 rockets were fired. But on both Friday and Saturday the number was the daily average since the war began: 30.

    By comparison, there has been a more marked drop in the number of mortars fired from Gaza into Israel, from 15 to 30-plus in the first few days to as few as five last Wednesday – or a daily average of about 11 a day since December 27.

    According to the ITIC website, 389 rockets and 140 mortars had been fired up to January 7.

    You might have noticed that Israel isn’t quite done yet. Though I understand your concern that a war which hasn’t accomplished all of its objectives in two weeks must be a failure. The thing is, Israel could stop attacks from Gaza completely in no more than 2 or 3 days. Do you think they should do that, Timmah!?

    Pablo (99243e)

  50. Pablo, do you believe this current assault will be the end of Hamas?

    That’s going to be up to Israel, and then to Gazans, lovey. I’d like to think so, but I wouldn’t bet on it either way.

    Pablo (99243e)

  51. Damage to a quick resolution of this conflict.

    lovey, do you really believe that JTP is having or is going to have any influence whatsoever on the decisions made by Israel and/or Hamas regarding how and when this round of violence ends?

    Pablo (99243e)

  52. The thing is, Israel could stop attacks from Gaza completely in no more than 2 or 3 days. Do you think they should do that, Timmah!?

    Comment by Pablo — 1/12/2009 @ 7:11 am
    Oh I think they can but would you like to be around to see the aftermath of that action? That is if you are talking about the nuclear option. My guess is that you are not. Are you?

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  53. This is what drives me crazy
    Chris Hedges- Gaza Diary 2001

    It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied voice crackles over a loudspeaker.

    ‘Come on, dogs,’ the voice booms in Arabic. ‘Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!’

    I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: ‘Son of a bitch!’ ‘Son of a Whore!…’
    The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come.

    A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children’s slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos.

    Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered – death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo – but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport.

    No one cares about the Palestinians. Not the Israelis, not the Egyptians, and not you. And most of you call yourselves Christians.

    sleepy (09c352)

  54. Comment by Pablo — 1/12/2009 @ 7:19 am
    As a person, no. But as a symbol of America, yes. Also we have the problem of inflamatory rhetoric coming from him. Is he really going there to conduct an honest research on the conflict, so as to report it as it is. Or is he just trying to score political points? Have you watched the clips? Is he conductiing an interview or is he going to be interviewed himself and to state his opinion? Really, who is JTP representing? Is he really helping the image of America or his political career.

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  55. Joe the Plumber figured it out in one visit. Many in the media never get it.

    And sleepy wrote:

    No one cares about the Palestinians. Not the Israelis, not the Egyptians, and not you. And most of you call yourselves Christians.

    Sleepy, you forgot the two most important entities on that list of yours. Hamas and Fatah. They should be first. Palestinians need to help themselves by not thinking they are ever going to drive the Israelis into the sea and start working for real peace. It is not peace to strap bombs to your teenagers and send them to blow up civilians in cafes. It is not peace to lob missiles at the town next door.

    Joe (17aeff)

  56. No one cares about the Palestinians. Not the Israelis, not the Egyptians, and not you. And most of you call yourselves Christians.

    huh… Condemnation from Chris Hedges?

    I’m shocked he would claim horrible acts on behalf of Israel…

    Oh, wait…

    American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America was published in January 2007. In this book, Hedges argues that the Christian fundamentalist movement emerging today in the United States resembles the early fascist movements in Italy and Germany at the beginning of the last century, and therefore constitutes a gathering threat to American democracy.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  57. Is he really going there to conduct an honest research on the conflict, so as to report it as it is.

    The way I look at it, if professional journalists aren’t, why should he?

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  58. Oh I think they can but would you like to be around to see the aftermath of that action? That is if you are talking about the nuclear option. My guess is that you are not. Are you?

    No. You don’t nuke your own backyard, or your neighbor’s. But they could achieve a similar effect with conventional weapons. So, I’m wondering if Timmah! thinks they should make speedy results a priority and just get it done, or if they should continue trying to avoid civilian casualties.

    Pablo (99243e)

  59. The way I look at it, if professional journalists aren’t, why should he?

    Comment by Scott Jacobs — 1/12/2009 @ 7:32 am
    Scotty, two wrongs don’t make a right. They make more lefties. Don’t be like what you hate.

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  60. Chris Hedges was “let go” by The New York Times after making a blatantly political speech while still employed as a reporter. As for those politics, Hedges calls himself a socialist. If Hedges voluntarily left The New York Times, it would appear he decided that it’s more important to be a political activist than a journalist.

    Not one word of his dispatches from Gaza should be believed, except for the word “Gaza.”

    Official Internet Data Office (18f952)

  61. Comment by Pablo — 1/12/2009 @ 7:41 am
    Yes. Just like a surgeon, trying to remove a tumor in the brain. It needs a lot of precision and care lest you kill the patient! But no matter how skilled the surgeon is, he might still cut one or two blood vessels.

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  62. “In this book, Hedges argues that the Christian fundamentalist movement emerging today in the United States resembles the early fascist movements”
    That’s why he’s nicknamed “Mullah Dobson.”

    “I’m shocked he would claim horrible acts on behalf of Israel.”
    He witnessed them. Of course he could be lying. But the IDF has
    a bigger history of that
    “How the IDF Covers Its Derrière: The Bombing of the UNRWA School” The author is an orthodox Jewish studies professor in Jerusalem.

    OK, so you are the commander of the IDF (or its spokesperson), and you learn that an IDF missile has rammed into a UNRWA school building killing innocent civilians, including children.

    So what do you do? First you conduct a “preliminary” investigation, and then release a fiction to the press: (You can check it out on the IDF website here.)

    Hamas Operatives Killed in UNRWA School
    After an investigation that took place over the past hour it has been found that amongst the dead at the Jabalya school were Hamas terror operatives and a mortar battery cell who were firing on IDF forces in the area. Hamas operatives Imad Abu Askhar and Hassan Abu Askhar were amongst terrorists that were identified as killed.
    “We face a very delicate situation where the Hamas is using the citizens of Gaza as a protective vest,” said IDF Spokesperson, Brig. Gen. Avi Benayahu, following the incident.

    To make the story look good, you accompany it with footage of Hamas operatives firing from within the school.

    Unfortunately for you, it is revealed that the footage is from 2007, and the story is contradicted by the United Nations representatives on the ground.. Then some weird things start to happen:

    First, UN officials say to Haaretz that IDF officers, in conversations with them, have retracted the story. There were no Hamas operatives in the school.
    Then, in response to the growing publicity, the IDF conducts another “preliminary” investigation. The terrorists mysteriously disappear from the school and from the story. Now you tell the press that an IDF patrol wanted to take out a team of terrorists that was firing near the school. A “technical malfunction” made the use of a “smart missle” impossible. So the commander used a missile with a GPS system that has a 30 meter margin of error. Regrettably, missles slammed into the school.

    To make things appear better, you can add that not that many people died in the school bombing, that Hamas routinely inflates numbers.
    Of course, I have absolutely no reason to believe the IDF’s second or third story, as I had absolutely no reason to believe the first story.

    Why would any rational person believe an organization like the IDF that routinely lies?
    Here is the latest IDF version of the incident. Tomorrow it may be something different. Since the IDF bans journalists from Gaza, and does not allow residents to send out pictures via cell phones, who can know what is really happening there?
    One last thing. The new “investigation” is reported in Haaretz. But, just in case, you keep the original bogus story on the IDF website.

    And yes Scott, I’d say a more than a few people on this site are capable of defending fascism. It’s biggest defenders always argue for is as a defense of freedom.

    sleepy (09c352)

  63. This Joe the Plumber is a joke. This is publicity at it’s best. Two weeks from now he will be forgotten about or brought back in a body bag.

    u know who (9ee557)

  64. And yet another tolerant voice is heard from the nutbag Left – thank you for your keen insights into the human condition. May we subscribe to your newsletter?

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  65. This Joe the Plumber is a joke. This is publicity at it’s best. Two weeks from now he will be forgotten about or brought back in a body bag.

    Heh. I suspect you’ll still be hating on him in 2 weeks.

    Pablo (99243e)

  66. Some of the comments here put down Joe because he mentions religion or God. It seems only certain people get made fun of when they do, such as Sarah Palin. Burris stated on camera that is was God’s will or something to that effect for him to move forward on the Senate seat,Martin Luther King always preached about God’s will for African American people yet no one made fun of them for using God.
    As for Joe reporting from Israel – we need as many viewpoints as possible since we have been misinformed with slanted news from the American corporate media for too long.

    Krystal (b7da94)

  67. Its kinda funny that the news media declared and ridiculed Joe the plumber for not really being a plumber because he himself was not “licensed” by the state.

    So Joe says, well maybe I will just become a reporter, they don’t need a “license” and from what he has read they don’t have to be very bright either. And seeing how popular Joe the plumber is, these reporters know everyone will read Joe and not them.

    Pay backs are a ….

    ML (14488c)

  68. Comment by Krystal — 1/12/2009 @ 8:15 am
    I have nothing against JTP mentioning “God”. I admire that. My problem is that I don’t know what he is doing there.

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  69. No one cares about the Palestinians.

    I stopped caring about them when they started launching rockets from the midst of civilians. If they don’t care enough about themselves to

    (a) elect a government that won’t use them as human shields

    and

    (b) get away from operatives launching rockets at Israel

    then it’s clear to me that they aren’t innocent bystanders, they are actively assisting aggressive attacks on Israel. Therefore, they have lost my sympathy.

    Steverino (69d941)

  70. Why stop at plumber/journalist?

    I would like to see Wurzelbacher as Palin’s running mate in 2012.

    Seriously

    Oiram (983921)

  71. Timmah and sleepy — the Judenhass twins.

    Rob Crawford (04f50f)

  72. Comment by Oiram — 1/12/2009 @ 9:16 am

    Seriously, dude… you need to stop obsessing over Gov Palin. She’s married, man. It was never meant to be.

    Move on. This just isn’t healthy, and I worry about you.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  73. Is sleepy/sneezy the official spokeshole for International ANSWER?

    AD (17695a)

  74. Concern over Joe the Plumber saying something dumb is pretty hilarious given the lack of concern from same about MSNBC anchor Olbermann’s

    SPQR (72771e)

  75. And…here we are:

    “…And yes Scott, I’d say a more than a few people on this site are capable of defending fascism. It’s biggest defenders always argue for is as a defense of freedom….”

    Getting very close to calling an opponent a Nazi. Godwin’s Law, anyone? That is the surest sign I have ever seen of a troll.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  76. Eric, not to mention anti-semitism under the US Dept of State’s definition.

    SPQR (72771e)

  77. And yes Scott, I’d say a more than a few people on this site are capable of defending fascism. It’s biggest defenders always argue for is as a defense of freedom.

    Oddly, you are one of the ones most likely to argue in favor of any form of Fascism…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  78. Chris Hedges is the Walter Duranty of the Palestinian story.

    No one cares about the Palestinians. Not the Israelis, not the Egyptians, and not you. And most of you call yourselves Christians.

    Comment by sleepy

    How about the Iranians, troll ? The real Iranians don’t agree with you.

    Iranians from inside Iran are texting into the Prague-based component of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty:

    —-“As long as they [our government] are helping Lebanon and Palestine, we’re not going to have a decent living.”

    —-“We’re soldiers from Jebrani and we dont have enough to eat, but the government is airlifting food and medicine top Gaza.”

    —- “In my opinion, it would be better if our leaders, together with their supporters, would relocate to Palestine. … This way we would have peace and quiet in Iran and our economic situation would improve.”

    —”If Gaza is a real Holocaust, Iran is the real Gaza.”

    —-“Yes, it’s true. [I hear] they want to give part of our salaries to Hamas.”

    —-“Any other country (apart from Israel) would have done the same a long time ago.”

    —-“Hamas should be destroyed. This cowardly group is taking cover in hospitals and residential areas. The people of Gaza should help Israel.”

    —”The clerical regime regime is lying. It was not Israel who started this war.”

    Mike K (ee3203)

  79. Timmah and sleepy — the Judenhass twins.

    Your stupidity is absolutely breathtaking, rob.

    Over the next few years, as you incoherently rage over the right wing web about your Obama hatred, can we assume you hate America or just black people, Rob?

    timb (2add5b)

  80. If Juggy O’Ears is qualified to be President-elect, Joe the Plumber is qualified to be a reporter.

    nk (2a3e35)

  81. Well, timmah, if I hold Obama to a standard no other president has ever had to meet, if I declare his errors to be deliberate atrocities, if I criticize him for every act of commission and omission, then, yeah.

    Of course, I don’t hate Obama. I disagree with him, dislike his politics and think he’s spent his life around some rather dubious characters, but don’t hate him.

    But your assertion that I do, as a parallel to your attitude towards Israel, is telling.

    Rob Crawford (04f50f)

  82. If he doesn’t use the words “grim” or “milestone” he’s not a real journalist.

    Yay Joe!

    Patricia (89cb84)

  83. Comment by Patricia — 1/12/2009 @ 10:47 am

    You forgot “quagmire”!

    AD (17695a)

  84. #75 Move on. This just isn’t healthy, and I worry about you.

    Comment by Scott Jacobs — 1/12/2009 @ 9:35 am

    Thanks Scott, your right.

    But she’s so damn hot, I can’t get her out of my mind!

    And I’m a married man too!!

    Wait a sec……… her and I have that in common, perhaps……….

    No, No, your right I’ll stop obsessing.

    Oiram (983921)

  85. Over the next few years, as you incoherently rage over the right wing web about your Obama hatred, can we assume you hate America or just black people, Rob?

    You mean like you’ve been doing for the last several years? Just because you’re unhinged, Timmah!, it doesn’t mean that everyone else is.

    Pablo (99243e)

  86. Sleepy/timb

    Why should anyone Christian or not care about murdering terrorist?

    Hamas and the rest of the Islamic terrorists have made their goals very clear, the utter destruction of Israel, they want to push Israel into the sea, they are not hiding this fact.

    Now the fact that you two willfully and completely ignore this, speaks for itself.

    Asking Hamas to obey a cease-fire is like asking Charles Manson to obey the law.

    ML (14488c)

  87. Eric Blair. wasn’t it you who asked if the member of my family killed in the nazi concentrations camps were guards?
    Pablo, as my link above showed, the video is from 2007. The IDF lied.

    ML : “Asking Hamas to obey a cease-fire is like asking Charles Manson to obey the law.”

    Hamas has a better record of maintaining a truce than Israel.

    “Why should anyone Christian or not care about murdering terrorist?”
    You mean the Irgun or the IRA?

    “The war will give us the land. The concepts of “ours” and “not ours” are peace concepts, only, and in war they lose their whole meaning”
    David Ben Gurion 1948

    sleepy (09c352)

  88. If a homeland for the Jews the size of what’s now Israel were created in 1948 on the borderland of Poland and Germany, and the original populations forcibly removed, you would be defending the Germans terrorists and I would be defending the Jews.

    sleepy (09c352)

  89. Joe drives liberals crazy ? Uh…more like he’s utterly symptomatic of how crazy righties have driven themselves and we love to watch you parading him as your hero.

    Liberals want more Joe….Pleeeze….also, more Paliin and lotsa Ken Blackwell.

    brucds (a9c0df)

  90. sleepy, inventing hypotheticals upon which to justify your name calling is just a sign of your lack of integrity. Not ours.

    By the way, the German population of the border area between Poland and Germany was forcibly removed in 1945. Shame about your utter ignorance of history.

    SPQR (72771e)

  91. Sleepy

    If you live here in America.

    Maybe you should put your money where your mouth is and return your home to the Indians that occupied the land before you, other wise you are just a hypocrite.

    You want yours while you don’t want the Jews to have theirs!

    ML (14488c)

  92. Sleepy

    If a homeland for the Jews the size of what’s now Israel were created in 1948 on the borderland of Poland and Germany, and the original populations forcibly removed,….

    That is bogus non-history, but it fits your agenda so I doubt you would except anything close to real facts.

    ML (14488c)

  93. Hamas has a better record of maintaining a truce than Israel.

    Just because Israel didn’t blow Hamas away over the last several months when Hamas chucked rockets into Israel doesn’t mean the truce was being kept. In fact, I’m pretty sure it shows great restraint on the part of Israel.

    Hams has been firing rockets for some time. Do you call that “Keeping the truce”?

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  94. Comment by brucds — 1/12/2009 @ 11:42 am

    Ok, this I have to hear, tnj… HOW is it a sign that righties have gone insane?

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  95. Pablo, as my link above showed, the video is from 2007.

    No, your link doesn’t show that. The video is from 1/8/09, 2 days after the incident you refer to. But I guess it’s cool with you if Hamas was firing from a school in 2007. As for old video, try this one from February 08.

    The enemies of Allah do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its methods of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: “We desire death like you desire life.”

    That’s Hamas MP Fathi Hammad, the director of Aqsa TV. He’s pretty damned concerned about the lives of Gasza’s civilians, isn’t he, sleepy?

    Pablo (99243e)

  96. You can start with the notion floated by the guy who posted this that this clown Wurzelburger drives liberals crazy. We love this stuff – we’re laughing our asses off – as are most folks who even bother to pay attention to the stunts of marginal stuff like PJM.

    You guys are clueless – don’t even know how lame you look.

    brucds (90c4f1)

  97. It’s OK, brucds. We’re HOPING for CHANGE, so we can be cool like you. I’m told this will be forthcoming very shortly. Meanwhile, did you get the new memo? Pass it along.

    Pablo (99243e)

  98. Comment by brucds — 1/12/2009 @ 12:05 pm

    I was wrong.

    You sound more like Levi.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  99. You can start with the notion floated by the guy who posted this that this clown Wurzelburger drives liberals crazy.

    And yet, here you are. If he doesn’t drive you crazy, doesn’t get under your skin, you’d just ignore him.

    Rob Crawford (04f50f)

  100. sleepy – Which IGF officials are making these alleged admissions of error? The linked article does not say. Just as a prior story you linked quoting a UNRWA useful idiot saying IDF officers briefed foreign officials about their errors, no such briefing was picked up anywhere else in original reporting. Do you have anything directly from the IDF or quoting the IDF rather than second or third hand from people who usually turn out to be liars? The IDF disclaimed your theories over the weekend so I’m wondering if you have discovered a new crop of liars or if there is just new information.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  101. “lotsa Ken Blackswell”

    Oh dear, we’ve gone porn.

    Da'Shiznit (dc4a50)

  102. I’m the furthest thing from a redneck but I love him too. Today I am a redneck! Go, Joe!!

    Peg C. (48175e)

  103. <i>The enemies of Allah do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its methods of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: “We desire death like you desire life.”
    Scary. But if they really desire death as they say, why the outrage over the deaths? Shouldn’t they be jumping and rejoicing and thanking the Israelis for putting them out of their miseries?

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  104. Comment by sleepy — 1/12/2009 @ 11:41 am

    Would you enjoy me cutting and pasting some accounts of Palestinian suicide bombings or selections from motivational speeches of Imadamnutjob from Iran. Would that help slake your Judenhass? Does your moral compass ever stop spinning?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  105. Scott Jacobs is obviously in some sort of self-imposed tizzy. His responses make no sense at all.

    This is officially boring as hell. Have fun, wingnuts!

    And remember, MORE JOE !

    brucds (a9c0df)

  106. This is officially boring as hell. Have fun, wingnuts!

    You have fun too, moonbat!

    ML (14488c)

  107. “they think we’re rednecks.”

    No, we think you are white trash. We rednecks have morals and are willing to work for a living. We don’t do abuse of power or corruption. We believe that when people work, they should get the rewards, not some CEO. We think that a person who pretends to be something he’s not is trash. We think that people who get other people to fight and die solely for their benefit are trash.

    Texas Aggie (0cfff8)

  108. Comment by brucds — 1/12/2009 @ 1:38 pm

    You forgot to declare victory!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  109. j curtis

    You challenged me, and then asserted I wouldn’t reenter the thread. I answered you specifically, but look who seems to have disappeared now!

    Typical.

    Joco (4cdfb7)

  110. oops. In copying the text I used the same link twice. If you’d gone to the pages I copied from -The Magnes Zionist- you would have found it.
    Here ya go.
    UN: IDF officers admitted there was no gunfire from Gaza school which was shelled

    sleepy (09c352)

  111. # 110

    No, we think you are white trash.

    Why does everyone make the assumption that everyone here is white?
    And is it ok to even call them “trash” if they are in a minority?

    ML (14488c)

  112. Sleepy, that Haaretz story just quotes the UN spokesthing. It’s the same source.

    Single-sourced stories are rather flimsy.

    Rob Crawford (04f50f)

  113. ML, Texas Aggie probably is white trash, oddly enough, but I assure you we aren’t all white. (I take it you might not be, either).

    In fact, I have found in my own little world, that minority conservatives are overrepresented online, for some reason.

    Joco (4cdfb7)

  114. Joco

    Funny enough, I am a male blond hair blue eyed protestant devil or better know as “white trash”, the only type that can be publicly ridiculed that is acceptable in today’s illiberal PC world.

    Its foolish to assume race when reading a comment, hell 90% of the time I am wrong when I just try to guess the gender of the poster. Besides I fail to see what race really has to do with any of this.

    I suppose the incoherent CEO part of that comment should have been a clue for me.

    ML (14488c)

  115. “There are only two races of people:
    Good, and Evil.”

    AD (17695a)

  116. “There are only two races of people:
    Good, and Evil.”

    So defending ethnic cleansing and locking people in camps for decades counts you as what exactly?

    “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab
    population.”
    David Ben Gurion, May 1948

    sleepy (09c352)

  117. sleepy, that counts as your lying actually.

    SPQR (72771e)

  118. The Troll compounds it’s idiocy by recycling phrases (including heavy editing, of course) that have long ago been Fisked repeatedly here.

    Next we’ll have some contextual links from “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.”

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  119. Hey, daley, re: 111:

    I work here is done

    Don’t you think?

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  120. “There are only two races of people:
    Good, and Evil.”

    No, there are two more – ignoramuses and bigots. The Troll combines both, a veritable two – fer.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  121. Um. Sleepy addresses me thusly at #90:

    “…Eric Blair. wasn’t it you who asked if the member of my family killed in the nazi concentrations camps were guards?…”

    No sleepy, I have never directly addressed you by name (unless you have gone by different names in the past to avoid banning, I mean). And I have never called a person with whom I disagree a Nazi or racist…unless they call Hitler a hero, or use racialist language.

    But I notice that you tend to call people with whom you disagree either fascists or racists.

    What I would say is that I find people who are writing in a pro-Palestinian POV (which is now pro-Hamas, it appears) seem to use a very, very flexible yardstick. They seem extremely eager to apply quite different sets of criteria to one “side” versus the other.

    Deploring the demonstrated Hamas habit of putting rocket launch sites in the middle of civilian areas would be a great place to start, if you were concerned with humane actions.

    And to consider this: every Hamas missile is intended to kill Jews, military and civilian alike. Every Israeli missile is intended to kill people shooting at Israel.

    Until you deal with that dissonance, people are going to call you pro-Hamas. And their actions are terroristic. Surely you don’t actually support Hamas.

    You might also consider freedom of the press in the Territories.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  122. David Ben-Gurion 1886-1973. He’s been dead for 25 years and plays no active role in the current Israeli government unless you believe zombies are running the country. Are you asking for those suicide bombing narratives?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  123. Don’t you think?

    Hmmm, well, it has a similar level of stupidity, but it lacks a certain something. Call it a je ne sais quoi, if you will.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  124. Maybe it is like Guiliani’s (and others’) idea about a broken window. Just as a broken window in a neighborhood tends to attract more vandalism, maybe trolls tend to attract other trolls.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  125. Let’s just call it for what it is – the Troll blames it all on the evil Joooos. Ask it for a favorite selection of Mein Kampf.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  126. Seriously, that is the part that gets me. At what point do ANY of the actions of foes of Israel become the responsibility of those foes? Instead, Dmac, as you say—it’s always the Jooooooos who are responsible.

    But it seems to work with anti-Semites in this country, doesn’t it?

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  127. Comment by sleepy — 1/12/2009 @ 1:54 pm

    From your link:

    “In briefings senior [Israel Defense Forces] officers conducted for foreign diplomats, they admitted the shelling to which IDF forces in Jabalya were responding did not originate from the school,” Gunness said. “The IDF admitted in that briefing that the attack on the UN site was unintentional.”

    I’ll ask the questions AGAIN sleepy, what are the names of the Israeli officers and since it was a briefing for foreign diplomats, why aren’t other outlets picking up on this story or talking about the briefing? Haven’t you noticed that this UN spokesperson, Chris Gunness, has already screwed up numerous stories related to Gaza and sounds more like a Hamas apologist than a neutral observer?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  128. Actually the correct spelling is evidently “Juice”

    SPQR (72771e)

  129. Eric – I need more samples.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  130. Nice one, SPQR; where was that idiot protester?

    Anyway, it is so jarring to me to keep in mind that all these “anti-Israeli” types would not do so well protesting in Arab countries against Arab actions of which they did not approve.

    Funny bit, that.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  131. Eric, Fifth Avenue.

    SPQR (72771e)

  132. According to the US State Dept, sleepy is anti-semitic

    SPQR (72771e)

  133. Like the old Pace Picante Sauce commercial:

    New York City???!!

    Amazing.

    Again, imagine a Christian protesting the actions of mullahs in almost any Muslim nation. What would happen then?

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  134. Eric, sleepy thinks he’s best off not thinking about that.

    SPQR (72771e)

  135. I wonder if Sleepy or timb approves of the treatment being the killing of Moslems by Ham-ass that declares them as working for the Jews?

    RARE VIDEO: HAMAS KILLING “PALESTINIANS” IN GAZA

    ML (14488c)

  136. By the way the spelling of Moslems instead of Muslims, greatly bothers timb.

    ML (14488c)

  137. That’s too bad, ML. But precision can be important.

    I just discovered that female Muslims should not be called “Muslims.” I’ll avoid the cheap shot by asking what the Arabic translation of the word “chattel” would be…

    Female Muslims are more properly called “Muslimah.”

    I mean, if we are going to be precise and non-offensive.

    If you want to go for offensive, there is always the 19th Century term for Muslim: “Musulman.”

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  138. Sorry. wrong dittohead

    “I lost family in the camps”
    Did they fall out of the guard towers sleepy?
    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/30/2008 @ 10:41 pm

    “why aren’t other outlets picking up on this story or talking about the briefing?”

    The UN lies. The Jews at Haaretz lie. They’re all “evil.”
    Everyone has picked it up… from Haaretz.

    TimesOnline
    The International Committee of the Red Cross has accused the Israeli military of “unacceptable” conduct and breaching international humanitarian law after discovering four emaciated children living next to the corpses of their mothers and other adults in bomb-shattered houses in Gaza City.

    The ICRC said that it had spent four days seeking Israeli guarantees of safe passage so that it could gain access to the houses in the badly damaged Zaytun neighbourhood of the city. It was finally allowed to send in a rescue team and four Palestine Red Crescent Society ambulances yesterday afternoon and said today that what they found was shocking.

    In one house they discovered four small children, alive but too weak to stand, next to the bodies of their dead mothers. In all their were 12 dead bodies lying on mattresses.

    Numbers and Graphs, courtesy of A Jew from MIT

    Thus, a systematic pattern does exist: it is overwhelmingly Israel, not Palestine, that kills first following a lull. Indeed, it is virtually always Israel that kills first after a lull lasting more than a week.
    The lessons from these data are clear:
    First, Hamas can indeed control the rockets, when it is in their interest. The data shows that ceasefires can work, reducing the violence to nearly zero for months at a time.
    Second, if Israel wants to reduce rocket fire from Gaza, it should cherish and preserve the peace when it starts to break out, not be the first to kill.

    You don’t really give a damn about any of this. You just like to be able to pat yourself on the back for being right. The fact that the facts say otherwise mean nothing. You’re a republican, you “create your own reality.” Though truth be told, on Israel a lot of democrats do too.
    Far too many.

    sleepy (09c352)

  139. I note that in 119 that if Hamas is doing the Ethnic Cleansing, that sleepy thinks it is ok.

    PCD (7fe637)

  140. 142, sleepy, what you recite are lies, not facts. You are the one who sleeps well being an abject liar.

    PCD (7fe637)

  141. How nice that I haven’t insulted him this character, and he (?) moves on with another insult: dittohead indeed.

    But the whole “create your own reality” is either sad or ironic or amusing.

    Dmac, here comes the “P” word again.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  142. “Everyone has picked it up… from Haaretz.”

    Links please.

    You have nothing from the IDF, do you, only an UNRWA Hamas shill?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  143. I meant “…I haven’t insulted him/this character..” and the backslash is missing.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  144. Second, if Israel wants to reduce rocket fire from Gaza, it should cherish and preserve the peace when it starts to break out, not be the first to kill.

    See, Hamas is innocent because they miss. Israel should wait until their people are dead before they try to prevent the murder of Israelis.

    Thing is, sleepy, Hamas loves death. Martyrdom rules.

    Don’t be sad, sleepy. It’s win/win.

    Pablo (99243e)

  145. Far too many.

    Whatever you say, Himmler. Now why don’t you go for the full enchilada here – c’mon, give us your fave bits from The Protocols from the Elders of Zion. I know you can do it, you’re the epitome of the worst kind of bigot – the kind who makes up sh-t and calls it escargot.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  146. Notice just how dishonestly phrased sleepy’s “source” is for the claim that Israel breaks the truces. His source just says “Second, and just as important, what happened to end this striking period of peace? On November 4th, Israel killed a Palestinian, an event that was followed by a volley of mortars fired from Gaza.” This is how the writer dishonestly portrays what happened on November 4. A gunbattle that began with the discovery of a Hamas tunnel from the Gaza strip. And that is a perfect example of the kind of honesty sleepy deals in.

    SPQR (72771e)

  147. “Let’s just call it for what it is – the Troll blames it all on the evil Joooos.”

    Joe the Plumber had some words for the Jooo media too:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/joe-plumber-war-correspondent-israel-gaza

    And then he rounded on the Israeli reporters whose newspapers have been criticised by some as no better than cheerleaders for the war. Wurzelbacher thought they hadn’t been supportive enough.

    “It makes me sick to see the way you behave. You guys need to be protective of your homes, your children, your family,” he said.

    imdw (cd4b7a)

  148. Pablo, I am thinking that sleepy needs to go over to the Territories and show his support.

    While he is there, he could carry a placard denouncing terrorism and supporting freedom of religion in Gaza.

    The funny part? He could do that exact thing in Israel in perfect safety.

    Yet they are the bad guys.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  149. #119:
    “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
    David Ben Gurion, May 1948

    Or maybe the date was wrong . . .
    Title: in 1967, Ben Gurion overtly stated
    Name: jc
    City: citizen State: world
    ?We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid Palestine of its Arab population.?

    Or was it . . .
    Ariel Sharon, current Prime Minister, in an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956: “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

    Seems like the liars can’t get their story straight.

    Bradley J. Fikes (40ae3a)

  150. Israel should wait until their people are dead before they try to prevent the murder of Israelis.

    The Troll thinks you’re close, but not quite – Israel should commit mass suicide immediately, and stop bothering the rest of the world with it’s petty problems. They should accept their deaths as inevitable, and stop trying to preserve something so silly as the sanctity of life.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  151. The ICRC — the organization that refuses to sanction the Mogen David Adom?

    The organization that gets pissed when Israelis search ambulances, but shrugs off Palestinians using them to move fighters and weapons?

    And I didn’t say Haaretz was lying. No doubt they reported accurately on what that one fellow was saying. I’m saying that without independent confirmation, we cannot know if that one guy was lying. Hell, he may not even be lying — he could have heard something wrong.

    But why would the IDF tell foreign diplomats, including UN representatives and not say anything to the press? It’s not like the diplomatic community is known for being pro-Israeli, and with the UN there, well, there are few audiences more hostile to Israel than the UN. They’d have to know anything they told that audience would become public.

    Hell, you can’t even point to any stories about the IDF denying the story. Have no reporters asked?

    At the moment it — and the ICRC claim — remain unconfirmed rumors from a war zone.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  152. Seems like the liars can’t get their story straight.

    Bradley, this particular Troll keeps repeating that lie, in a desperate attempt to find some type of source that makes it legit. In turn, when called on it by other commenters here, it turns up lame.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  153. Here’s yet another version, with yet another evil Joooooooooooo blamed:
    “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” Israel Koenig, “The Koenig Memorandum”

    Bradley J. Fikes (40ae3a)

  154. Hi Dmac,
    As Ken Layne said, we can fact-check your ass — and trolls are not immune.

    Bradley J. Fikes (40ae3a)

  155. I think it says a lot about sleepy and timb who openly support people who stand on American street corners and yell, the Jews need bigger ovens and death to Israel.

    Maybe sleepy and timb thinks these Palestinians (with Jordanian passports) are being oppressed or occupied here in America, you know with Bush being Pres and all.

    ML (14488c)

  156. Dmac, Bradley, I believe you discussing Teh Narrative.

    Facts don’t matter. Feelings do.

    And by those feelings, I don’t mean people living in Gaza, or in Israel proper. I mean the feelings of the “Speech Troof to Powder Brigade.” How they feel about themselves.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  157. And here is some tolerance and understanding of the complexities of geopolitics:

    http://zombietime.com/gaza_war_protest/

    This was yesterday, in California.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  158. Wait, Bradley, you mean the Judenhass twins are using anti-Semitic lies to “support” their positions?

    I’d like to say I’m shocked, but I’m not.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  159. It’s beyond tiresome at this point – they regularly post their filth on other sites, but once in awhile come here to repeat their inanity. Must be getting slow over at PW these days.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  160. Eric Blair

    From your zombietime link

    “The Jewish state is a criminal entity”

    Well first off I am surprised any of these protesters can spell, but then nobody had a sign about justice or as they spell it “juice”, beside that fact how can these people possibly be reasoned with, their ability to reason left many, many moons ago.

    ML (14488c)

  161. Sorry I spoke too soon.

    Turns out the group “gray panthers” cant spell their own name correctly, they went with
    “gray panters”.

    Nothing says “look at me, I am a moron” more than a protester using bad spelling.

    ML (14488c)

  162. http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/01/a_media_ban_would_do_average_j.asp

    Let’s see, Joe wants to ban reporters from the war zone, even though he’s a reporter who was sent to cover the war…hmmm. Even the biggest jackboot fan can realize that a third party observing military actions can be beneficial, even if what they report is not always positive. Why do you think the military embeds reporters? And soldiers are smart enough to figure out that reporters can get stories out that high command would rather snuff out (how else would Walter Reed have been exposed if not for some disgruntled troops talking to reporters?).

    It’s fine to agree with Joe’s politics. But to position him as some kind of great guy to admire is just fucking moronic. I hope the next site feature is a way to ignore authors; DRJ is consistently the dumbest of an otherwise fine group of bloggers here.

    Zac (dbfcb4)

  163. Sorry, guys, all I can think to say is “Why don’t you go take a flying jump at a rolling donut, Zacoff”. Maybe you other guys can do better?

    nk (2a3e35)

  164. But to position him as some kind of great guy to admire is just fucking moronic.

    …and by using the F – word in an apparent attempt to make some kind of a point, you look like a complete jackass.

    I hope the next site feature is a way to ignore authors;

    Here’s an idea for you, one that you obviously have a hard time grasping – don’t read her posts. OTOH, we can easily ignore braying jackasses.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  165. God help you folks if any of you think Joe “the Plumber” Wurzelbacher speaks the truth. If he was so honest, why didn’t he pay his taxes?

    larry_in_toledo (ad4d8e)

  166. larry, have you heard of the newest Democratic Senator from Minnesota? Or are you just a clown?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  167. larry_in_toledo

    I will not claim to be the most honest person alive, but I also owe lots and lots of taxes, so does that fact alone make me a dishonest person or just bad with finances or just too broke to pay those taxes?

    You know priority dictates that
    1 st; I feed my family.
    2 nd; I pay the utilities
    3 rd; I pay rent
    4 th; I make car payments
    5 th; I pay credit cards and taxes.

    So when the money runs out after priority number 3, the rest just have to wait, its simple math.

    ML (14488c)

  168. SPQR, I forgot your an absolute genius. So what about Cunningham, Burt, Burton, Watts, etc. We can go on and on about these clowns, yet what does that say about the voting public who elects these sleeze-balls.

    larry_in_toledo (ad4d8e)

  169. larry, it says a lot about you in this case because it was you who introduced this old Obama-campaign smear against Joe the Plumber.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  170. Funniest thing, SPQR — Joe has paid those taxes. Has Franken made good all his debts?

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  171. SPQR, It’s time to move on. McCain lost. Get over yourself. Send me your address, and I’ll send you a box of tissue.

    larry_in_toledo (ad4d8e)

  172. I’m sorry, but when I read something like this:

    “..DRJ is consistently the dumbest of an otherwise fine group of bloggers here….”

    It tells me that the person who wrote this is either ignorant of DRJ’s posts, or simply trolling.

    Or both.

    The fact that “Zac” has linked to a Weekly Standard article for his or her own name speaks volumes.

    It’s fine not to like something. But to come off the starting blocks with unwarranted insults says everything about Zac.

    After all, we have a few banned individuals who have an axe to grind on this topic, don’t we?

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  173. It’s time to move on. McCain lost

    What was your first clue?

    ML (14488c)

  174. Oh, and on Al Franken (from Wikipedia):

    New York state officials stated Al Franken Inc. failed to carry workers’ compensation insurance for employees from 2002 to 2005. Franken paid the $25,000 fine to the state of New York upon being advised his corporation was out of compliance with the state’s workers’ compensation laws.

    The California Franchise Tax Board reported that the same corporation owed more than $4,743.40 in taxes, fines, and associated penalties in the state of California for 2003 through 2007 because the corporation did not file tax returns in the state for those years. A Franken representative said that it followed the advice of an accountant who believed when the corporation stopped doing business in California that no further filing was required. However, Republicans say that Franken made 32 public appearances from 2003 to 2007, including two on NBC’s Tonight Show with Jay Leno taped in Burbank, California, for which Franken would have been paid the standard union fee as a member of the Screen Actors Guild.

    On April 29, 2008, Franken released a statement noting that he will pay about $70,000 in back income taxes in 17 states dating to 2003. Most of the income at issue was from Franken’s speeches and other paid appearances. Franken said he got bad advice from his accountant, who had told him to pay income tax only in his state of residence. He added that he will seek retroactive credit from the states where he paid income tax that should have been paid in these 17 states.

    So if Joe the Plumber is an unsavory individual because of tax problems, what does one say about a person who supposedly cares for the “working folk” who didn’t pay workers compensation insurance on his own employees?

    Mr. Senator, apparently.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  175. I read this earlier, and after reading some comments about it, went back to bring it over here. Is this the IDF statement that Sleepy mentioned? And a bonus update on the shooting of the Palistinian UNRWA driver, too.

    JPost.com » Special Reports » Confronting Hamas » Article
    Jan 12, 2009 0:19 | Updated Jan 12, 2009 10:19
    IDF denies errant shell hit UNRWA school
    By TOVAH LAZAROFF

    The army fired three mortar shells, two of which hit the target and one missed by about 30 meters, causing the casualties at the school, whose number the IDF believes was inflated by Hamas.

    “We are still sticking by our official position that according to our initial inquiry, the whole thing started when terrorists fired mortar shells from the school compound [at soldiers],” Capt. Ishai David told The Jerusalem Post.

    “The IDF returned fire to the source, and the unfortunate result was the death of innocent civilians,” David said. He added that two terrorists, who were part of a Kassam squad, were also killed in the incident.

    Also on Sunday, at a press conference in Jerusalem, UNRWA claimed it was IDF gun fire that killed a Palestinian truck driver working for the aid group near the Erez crossing on Thursday.

    “Given the location where the incident took place, the shots could only have come from the IDF,” said Aidan O’Leary, UNWRA’s deputy director in Gaza.

    O’Leary added that a meeting with the IDF on Sunday, the officers “shared with us a deep apology for the loss of life.”

    But Capt. David told the Post on Sunday that “the initial inquiry indicates that it was not IDF fire that killed him.”

    Last week a MDA medic at the scene told the Post that soldiers in the field said Hamas snipers targeted the aid workers. Two Palestinians wounded in the same incident were treated at Barzilai Medical Center in Ashkelon.

    allan (a48c50)

  176. If its time for me to move on, why is the troll still repeating Obama campaign talking points?

    Projection – the liberals primary mental state.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  177. Can’t make up their minds I guess

    Israeli defence officials are now saying one of the deadliest recent incidents in Gaza, when a UN school was bombed, was caused by a stray mortar.
    The attack killed about 40 Palestinian civilians sheltering at the Fakhura school in Jabaliya on Tuesday.
    Initially, Israeli officials accused Hamas of firing from the school and using civilians as “human shields”.
    The UN has called for an independent investigation and for criminal charges to follow if culpability is discovered.
    UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon expressed “deep dismay” that Fakhura school, and two other UN-run schools in Gaza, had been hit by Israeli fire despite the army having been given precise details of school locations.
    Quoted by Haaretz newspaper on Sunday, the army said Hamas militants had fired from near the school – rather than within it – and its troops responded with three mortars.
    Two were accurate, the army claimed, but one landed 30 metres off target. It was that mortar that caused the carnage at Fakhura school, the army said.
    The statement was made anonymously to the media because the investigation had not yet been made public by the military, Haaretz and news agencies reported.
    ‘Cynical’
    The dropping of the defence that Hamas mortars had come from within the school compound may cause some embarrassment to Israel in what has been a high profile incident.
    The initial “human shield” claim was made forcefully after the killings by the military, politicians and many supporters of Israel.
    “Hamas cynically uses civilians as human shields,” the military said in its initial statement, and later it went as far as naming two well-known Hamas militants among those killed at the school.
    Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev called the incident “a very extreme example of how Hamas operates”.
    It is not clear what credibility the change of position will be given by observers.

    sleepy (09c352)

  178. SPQR, I forgot your an absolute genius.

    The unintentional humor is making me chuckle

    Steverino (b12c49)

  179. Mortar Bombs Shot from UN School in Gaza 29 Oct. 2007

    Don’t believe you lying eyes!
    A donkey may have died.

    ML (14488c)

  180. That should read:
    Don’t believe your lying eyes!

    In that note, I work here is done.

    ML (14488c)

  181. Tru freakin’ dat. ML.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  182. Comment by sleepy — 1/12/2009 @ 7:07 pm
    “Quoted by Haaretz newspaper on Sunday, the army said Hamas militants had fired from near the school – rather than within it – and its troops responded with three mortars.
    Two were accurate, the army claimed, but one landed 30 metres off target. It was that mortar that caused the carnage at Fakhura school, the army said.
    The statement was made anonymously to the media because the investigation had not yet been made public by the military, Haaretz and news agencies reported.”

    sleepy – The comments made in the first Haaretz article you linked were supposed to have been made anonymously at a briefing for foreign diplomats that we have not have any confirmation that ever occurred. Haaretz has not admitted either the bogus statements from the UNRWA spokesperson or it’s error in the first article. Why is this one more believable? 30 meters is not a large distance in any event. Since the IDF is issuing it’s own comments, don’t you have anything from them? They’re Jews and you seem to find Jews credible to quote elsewhere.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  183. Sleepy,

    And why should I believe your Pultizer-prize-winning (and Nation Institute senior fellow) Chris Hedges? He doesn’t even know enough to convincingly lie about the details. For example:

    “There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children’s slight bodies.”

    You cannot silence an M-16. Its bullets are supersonic. A sniper might put a silencer on his weapon to muffle its report, to make locating him more difficult, but the bullets themselves, being supersonic, make the bulk of the weapon’s total sound. Further, even a subsonic handgun of moderate power cannot be made so that there are anywhere near “no sounds of gunfire.” It will still be as loud as a .22 caliber rifle.

    DWPittelli (dd9f59)

  184. 30 meters is not a large distance in any event.

    Correct, that is only 98.43 feet rounded off to the nearest 10th of a foot.

    You cannot silence an M-16. Its bullets are supersonic.

    Also correct those .223 NATO rounds travel at 3,100 feet per second or thereabouts and can be heard down-range with ease.

    ML (14488c)

  185. Sleepy,

    Hedges’ story also seems doubtful for reasons more central to its plot. He claims:

    that these shootings were going on for several days in the same spot, yet the boys either don’t know what has happened there, or run into death despite seeing other local boys shot to pieces there;

    and that the Palestinian police can’t stop the boys from their suicidal protest, and the police can’t even approach the fence without themselves being shot at (but not hit) — and yet someone has carried the boys from this shooting gallery to the hospital.

    And yet no one thinks to bring a camera to this hellish place despite its predictable news and propaganda value.

    DWPittelli (dd9f59)

  186. _______________________________

    If a homeland for the Jews the size of what’s now Israel were created in 1948 on the borderland of Poland and Germany, and the original populations forcibly removed, you would be defending the Germans terrorists and I would be defending the Jews.

    Comment by sleepy — 1/12/2009 @ 11:41 am
    _______________________________

    Oh, so you think that if it were a case of European versus European, it would come down to something as simpleminded and pap as a conservative of the Western world sympathizing with the “Nazis”, while you, a supposed do-gooder liberal, would be crying over the Jews?

    That says a lot more about you than it does about anyone else. IOW, your foolish analogy validates my sense that most leftwingers bleed their hearts based on some ass-backwards, misguided definition of who’s the underdog, who’s the topdog, who’s the good guy, who’s the bad guy.

    So Israelis are perceived as the heavy — as the bad guy — in the drama between the Jewish state and the Islamic state, because many of them are of European extraction and, more importantly, of Western socio-political background.

    By contrast, the Palestianians are judged by the left as being sad, poor, misunderstood, noble, long-suffering folks from the Third World, heroically fighting the good fight against the imperialist West, the imperialist US, the hegemonist Israel.

    This is the same stupidity evident in so much of the left that makes many of them weep over the plight of the convicted murderer sentenced to death, while tossing aside all the horror — all the innocent victims — that killer has left behind in his wake.

    Such ass-backwards sentiment wouldn’t annoy me so much if most of the liberals who think this way at least didn’t also see themselves as very humane, very compassionate, very civilized, very loving, very tolerant members of the human race.
    _______________________________

    Mark (411533)

  187. I forgot your an absolute genius.

    Hilarious, this ranks right up there with the already – immortal I work here is done.

    He sounds quite edumacated, don’t he?

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  188. Mark, sleepy is so ignorant that he does not realize that population expulsions did occur after WWII on the border between Germany and Poland. He can’t even invent an analogy competently.

    Hedges’ dishonest reporting has been well debunked above, but I’ll just repeat that a 30 meter error with a mortar is not much of an error at all.

    SPQR (72771e)

  189. but I’ll just repeat that a 30 meter error with a mortar is not much of an error at all.

    Depending on shell size and shell type, it might not even be much outside the effective blast range. Certainly outside the lethal range, but maybe not the “injure and maim” range.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  190. If sleepy was at all honest, the contrast between the IDF and Hamas offered by this story would shut him up.

    Don’t hold your breath.

    SPQR (72771e)

  191. sleepy also conveniently ignores the war crimes being committed by Hamas on a daily basis – targeting innocent Israeli civilians for attack and using Palestinian noncombatants as human shields. He then turns around and blmes the Israelis for the anticipated results the Hamas’ war crimes, which would be considered tragic, but not crimes, in any international tribunal.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  192. Now I am saddened when I reflect on my many family members and friends either being Jewish or atheist that I love and wonder if they will be in heaven. posted by ML

    Hey, ML, I support the right of Israel to exist and to defend itself. I work with, have worked for, and count amongst my friends numerous Jewish folks (this last Christmas my friend David bought me Conscience of a Conservative for Chaunakha/Christmas. In all that time, I have never thought my friends and co-workers were going to Hell. Guess you must really love Jews if you damn them to Hell.

    Or, do you love the Israelis because they are killing Muslims? I noticed your lack of response above when you were <> corrected on your bigotry. I know from Darleen’s how much you hate Islam and Muslims.

    Personally, aside from giggling at ML looking for a peer group, I think the two sides should have had an agreement before the fighting started, but the idea (from dorklo above) that this changes anything is laughable.

    Other than bolstering Hamas in Gazans eyes and getting Olmert re-elected, the fighting solves nothing (it does show Joe the Plumber as a half-wit, but he already showed that….the Che Guevara of right wing, white guy anger indeed).

    In the end, Hamas remains (and will probably continue firing rockets), Israel remains isolated from the rest of the world, and Patterico readers will continue to insist that everyone, except the Jerusalem Post, lies about the conflict. Just like they did when Israel invaded Lebanon and nothing was solved.

    What did Colin Powell say about you people being American Likud? An entire movement devoted to tax cuts and war….you must be so proud.

    And, ML, do try harder to hide your bigotry…you’re even showing it to these fellows.

    timb (2add5b)

  193. Just like they did when Israel invaded Lebanon and nothing was solved.

    Nothing except that Hezbollah stopped firing rockets into Israel and is too scared to start firing them now in support of its terrorist brethren …

    SPQR (72771e)

  194. So, folks, review Post #196. Then appreciate the double irony of the author of that post calling anyone else a bigot or having used one-sided referencing.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  195. Eric – The old “some of my best friends’ friends are Jewish” meme. I can feel their pain.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  196. “I think the two sides should have had an agreement before the fighting started”

    timb – I think there should have been an agreement 60 years ago, but one side seems to be unwilling to live in peace. In fact, the Charter for their organization specifically calls for the extermination of the other. What kind of agreement are you suggesting?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  197. Daley, the “…you people…” line is a dead giveaway.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  198. Some of my best friends are anti-semites … well, no not actually.

    SPQR (72771e)

  199. Just like they did when Israel invaded Lebanon and nothing was solved.

    Au contraire! The UN is making sure that Hezbollah doesn’t rearm south of the Litani as we speak!

    /rimshot

    Pablo (99243e)

  200. # 196

    timb, wow you just embarrassed me or yourself again and this time here at Patterico, the shame I feel is over whelming, maybe I can find a peer group somewhere on-line to stroke my ego?

    In all that time, I have never thought my friends and co-workers were going to Hell. Guess you must really love Jews if you damn them to Hell.

    Timb I know you are in love with me and think I am God or a god, but I have explained to you time and time again I am not God or a god and thus I do not have the power to condemn anyone to hell, why can you not understand that?

    Now I would never expect you to think anyone is going to hell, not even Hitler, because that is the type of moral equivalence you illiberal’s deal in, but I am the bad guy because I dare to make a moral judgment. I understand why you hate America now, you have to because of your moral equivalence bunkum.

    Nice post though, nothing proves you are a kook who cant understand basic logic more than that post.

    PS, timb don’t forget your all time classic statement “God prefers people who don’t believe his word”.

    ML (14488c)

  201. Daley:

    timb – I think there should have been an agreement 60 years ago, but one side seems to be unwilling to live in peace. In fact, the Charter for their organization specifically calls for the extermination of the other. What kind of agreement are you suggesting?

    Hamas ended its ceasefire with Israel on December 19, because it claimed Israel was not living up to the conditions of the ceasefire, making humanitarian aid all but impossible and helping Fatah screw with Hamas members on the West Bank.

    Seems to me, at this point, Israel could have sat down with Hamas and made an offer regarding humanitarian aid. Hamas has no right to fire rockets into Israel and Israel has every right to stop the rockets, including invading Gaza to do so.

    BUT, having the right to do use force, doesn’t mean it’s the best idea. Especially, when here there was a different answer. According to a report I read yesterday, Hamas’s approval rating within Gaza was dropping. Israel only needed to negotiate a few concessions in the blockade, say allowing medicine into Gaza, and Hamas may have backed down. Maybe, Hamas wouldn’t have, because one of the repercussions of their rocket firing was the possibility of an Israeli invasion, which would unite Gazans behind them.

    In any event, one can always invade if one wishes…in this case the Israelis skipped these steps and jumped to invasion.

    As to the continual contention about the Hamas Charter. Yes, Hamas is vile. They wish to destroy Israel and they refuse to renounce this. Fatah has not renounced it either, yet they certainly have proved they can work with Israel.

    Israel and the Palestinians have to learn to live like kindergartners, i.e. they have to play nice with their neighbors. One side complains the other side promises to kill them, the other side says the first side is actually killing them. The Israelis have played the bad cop for going on 60 years and they have yet to “win” with this strategy. How much longer do they have to be hard-assess before it occurs to them that the only change coming is the demographic bomb inside Israel?

    Both sides are wrong (as I noted before) and the actions taken by both sides in the last month only strengthen extremists on either side. Hamas will grow as Israel creates new martyrs and Israel will come closer to ensuring a Hamas re-election in Gaza, a militarizing Fatah on the West Bank, a Hezbollah getting antsy, and continued isolation from everyone in the world, except the American right wing.

    Anyway, that’s what I think. I am aware what you guys think: the world is full of good peoples and bad peoples and the Arabs are bad (except when they kick Al Queda out of Iraq) and the Israelis are good. Anything Israel does = good. Anything Palestinians do = bad. I reject that thinking.

    Israel has the right to invade Gaza, but in this case they were wrong to do so, since they cannot meet their policy objectives. Blame Clausewitz, don’t blame me.

    timb (2add5b)

  202. Wow, Israel can’t meet their policy objectives because Clausewitz says so.

    Well, I always turn to Napoleonic era German military officers for my counter-terrorist doctrine, doesn’t everyone?

    SPQR (72771e)

  203. I am aware what you guys think: the world is full of good peoples and bad peoples and the Arabs are bad (except when they kick Al Queda out of Iraq) and the Israelis are good. Anything Israel does = good. Anything Palestinians do = bad. I reject that thinking.

    It’s really easy to reject your opponent’s thinking when you deliberately misstate their position.

    Steverino (69d941)

  204. Especially, when here there was a different answer.

    This I gotta hear…

    According to a report I read yesterday, Hamas’s approval rating within Gaza was dropping.

    Yeah, because the rank and file of Palestine are getting tired of dying because Hamas uses them as shields. Even the Palestinians blame Hamas for them dying…

    Israel only needed to negotiate a few concessions in the blockade, say allowing medicine into Gaza, and Hamas may have backed down

    The fact that Israel was already allowing that stuff through is lost on you, isn’t it.

    The aid Hamas is upset it isn’t getting would be the weapons that Israel has been trying to stop from getting into Hamas’s hands. The aid moves freely, while stuff that you could term “not aid” does not.

    Fatah has not renounced it either, yet they certainly have proved they can work with Israel.

    Which would explain, I suppose, the fact that Hamas has been shooting members of Fatah and suspected Israel supporters.

    One side complains the other side promises to kill them, the other side says the first side is actually killing them.

    That one side is lying is hardly surprising. I’m also not surprised that you BELIEVE the lie.

    The Israelis have played the bad cop for going on 60 years and they have yet to “win” with this strategy.

    Yeah, that unilateral withdrawl from Gaza, the age-old offer to meet 98% of Palestine’s demands PLUS give them $35 Billion for economic investment was terribly brutal of them.

    Both sides are wrong (as I noted before) and the actions taken by both sides in the last month only strengthen extremists on either side.

    The difference being that one side is FAR more wrong on several levels, and that Hamas extreemists don’t seem to be getting much stronger, since a bunch of them keep dying off, and the general population is tired of Hamas cowards hiding behind women and children.

    Anyway, that’s what I think. I am aware what you guys think: the world is full of good peoples and bad peoples and the Arabs are bad (except when they kick Al Queda out of Iraq) and the Israelis are good. Anything Israel does = good. Anything Palestinians do = bad.

    I’m glad you are utterly unable to grasp simple concepts. It makes dealing with you so much easier when it become obvious that you’re a nitwit.

    I reject that thinking.

    It would appear you reject thinking all together. That must save time…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  205. Timb, on the surface, you are right that Hamas chose to end the truce. I don’t know if the date you referenced is accurate but I’ll accept it as such. What you haven’t mentioned is the truce was marked by multiple cases of rocket-fire from Gaza into Israel. The truce was not a total cease-fire. Hamas still continued to fire into Israel during the truce. Thus, any claim Israel “started it,” to borrow your kindergarten metaphor, is flat-out dissembling.

    Why should Israel have been required to fully open everything up on the border if she were still receiving rocket-fire from the other side? Isn’t that demand an eensy bit disingenuous?

    You also need to note that Israel is allowing tens of thousands of tons of aid to travel from Israel to Gaza, even during this battle. That fact cannot be overlooked if you wish to be taken seriously in your claims.

    Do you actually think Hamas, a terror group who killed members of other terror groups for softening their stance against Israel, a terror group who keeps Palestinians in danger zones by gun-point, would ever negotiate in good faith with Israel? How many times must a terrorist group be negotiated with before people realize terrorist groups cannot be negotiated with? And when Hamas makes a mockery of Israel for not taking action during the truce in response to the Hamas rocket attacks? Can you honestly keep a straight face when you say “negotiate with Hamas?”

    And this foolish notion, to use your mixed-metaphor, of playing “bad cop” for 60 years? Can you be serious? Israel has spent those 60 years trying to keep a precarious balance between self-defense and public relations. Any time Israel defends herself, she is castigated in the world media and in government statements across the world and in the UN. Every time she defends herself. You also forget passivity is looked down on in that region of the world. “The pen is mightier than the sword” only when “the pen” is demanding use of “the sword,” and then, only when “the sword” is used against Israel or supporters of Israel. Inaction == weakness in the mind-set of much of that region.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  206. Maybe, Hamas wouldn’t have, because one of the repercussions of their rocket firing was the possibility of an Israeli invasion, which would unite Gazans behind them.Maybe, Hamas wouldn’t have, because one of the repercussions of their rocket firing was the possibility of an Israeli invasion, which would unite Gazans behind them.

    Since when does getting your ass kicked while making everyone’s life completely miserable unite people behind you? If I’m Joe Gazan, no matter how much I’d like to kill all the Jews, I’ve fucking had it with Hamas, especially in light of this sort of thing.

    Pablo (99243e)

  207. I think Israel clearly understands the polices of Neville Chamberlain did not work then and certainly do not work now.

    ML (14488c)

  208. The reason that Israel closed the border crossings in the first place is that Hamas was smuggling arms across them, usually by creating riots to overwhelm Israeli and Egyptian border guard posts.

    SPQR (72771e)

  209. Oh, no! “Death to Obama”

    Now what, Timmah!?

    Pablo (99243e)

  210. Comment by Pablo — 1/13/2009 @ 12:55 pm
    Damn RW GOP fundies are taking over everywhere.
    Can’t they just MoveOn?

    AD (6e9550)

  211. I work with, have worked for, and count amongst my friends numerous Jewish folks

    The classic Trolly defense – many of my friends are…(choose among the following in order to deflect obvious hatred of said group) homosexuals/conservatives/anarchists/anti – Semites/crossdressers/African-Americans/Socialists/Jehovah’s Witnessnes/Mormons/GoatHerders…and the evil Jooos.

    Nice try, bigot.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  212. Dmac, “Juice”.

    SPQR (72771e)

  213. AD – It might be a nice touch if Israel insisted that as a condition of any cease fire that any surviving leaders of Hamas be turned over to an international tribunal for trial as war criminals.

    It would never happen and it would create precedents that the Islamists would take advantage of, but is fun to think about the stir the demand would create.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  214. Look at the pic closely. It’s Zionist Juice. I just have to decide if that means grape juice or not. I’m leaning toward grape juice being zionist because it is the most widely used fermented juice. Of course, it could be a select form of apple juice, too.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  215. Yeah, I don’t like the idea of international tribunals, courts, governments, whatever. Globalism is a bane to constitutional republicanism world-wide.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  216. A question for Patterico.

    Can Timb be put on hiatus until he understands basic humanity and that Hamas isn’t?

    PCD (7fe637)

  217. “Can Timb be put on hiatus until he understands basic humanity and that Hamas isn’t?”

    PCD – That would be equivalent to a permanent ban.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  218. And would spoil my fun.

    SPQR (72771e)

  219. And, ML, do try harder to hide your bigotry.you’re even showing it to these fellows.
    Comment by timb – 1/13/2009 @ 8:00 am

    Well then “I work here is done”.

    ML (14488c)

  220. ML, you wholly unreformable bigot, can I be your friend?

    the politically incorrect John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  221. the politically incorrect John Hitchcock

    Sure you as long and you don’t mind me damning everyone to hell with Hamas leading the way?

    ML (14488c)

  222. Israel Defense Forces troops operating in the Gaza Strip this week uncovered a school and an adjacent zoo rigged by Hamas militants with a large amount of explosives.
    The school and zoo were entirely surrounded by a fuse connecting to the explosives. Inside the abandoned classrooms, IDF troops found a number of weapons.

    Now I am sure timb will claim Hamas only does that because those evil Joooo’s left them without a choice and he has some “Jewish friends”.

    ML (14488c)

  223. Run them islamofascists out of Hell and into a worse place, will you, ML? Those standard-issue dissembling liberals shouldn’t have to suffer by being roomies with the islamofascists.

    And I is prowed to be joo friend, ML.

    the politically incorrect John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  224. No, ML, it’ll be worse than that. He’ll claim that the IDF planted the explosives and weapons, and then lied about Hamas doing it.

    Steverino (69d941)

  225. Steverino, you’re one of those eye-talions, aren’t you? Aren’t you supposed to agree with hologram deniers?

    I work here am did.

    the politically incorrect John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  226. Was Steve Allen Italian?

    Steverino (69d941)

  227. Personally, aside from giggling at ML

    The only people I know that “giggle” are little girls and boys.

    the Che Guevara of right wing, white guy anger indeed.

    Che Guevara was a white angry guy?

    So who is the Che Guevara of the right wing, none otherwise you would have named him.
    Do you ever wonder why the left produces so many Che Guevara’s and all the vile anti-Israeli anti-Semitic protesters we have seen lately, all subscribe to the same ethics.

    Oh no, there I went and deciphered between right and wrong again.

    what a bigot I am, Sam I am.

    ML (14488c)

  228. You’re either right or left.
    You’re either right or wrong.
    But I repeat myself.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  229. There’s a Freudian reason Democrats chose the Donkey and Republicans chose the Elephant.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  230. As the saying goes, sometimes you’re the bug and sometimes you’re the windshield.

    In timb’s case its; sometimes you’re the underwear and sometimes you’re the skid-mark.

    ML (14488c)

  231. Now I am sure timb will claim Hamas only does that because those evil Joooo’s left them without a choice and he has some “Jewish friends”.

    Funny how timb and sleepy ran away from this thread when you posted that news item.

    Steverino (69d941)

  232. Ran away? I came back and didn’t find anything substantive (except ridiculous name-calling from an Arab hater — ml — and a gang of chattering gibbons. When there were people n the thread whose very existence was not brightened by the deaths of other people, I was here to debate. Now, that the field is left to a bigot and his friends, I saw nothing to add.

    With that said, Steverino, I will say this about ML’s news: OH no, Hamas booby-trapped empty buildings! What a war crime. What’s next? Suicide bombing pizza parlors or malls? Maybe, firing rockets into the nearest village.

    Hamas, as I’ve already mentioned, is vile. The Palestinian people are not and Israel’s invasion of Gaza shows no signs of stopping rockets attacks. In fact, there’s a story in the NYTimes today about how Israel’s invasion is radicalizing the West Bank and driving Palestinians away from Fatah. So, that’s two Israeli goals which have not or cannot be met. How many more fails can they have before they learn a tank shell might stop UN deliveries, but won’t win any hearts and minds?

    In the end, we watch as two peoples who need to live together are driven apart by violent extremists. The only winners of this game are Hamas, Likud and the fringe right wing parties of Israel, and people like ML, who get excited about Arab deaths.

    When there’s an issue to debate, Steve, I’ll be there like Underdog. After awhile, I get bored by ML’s chattering inanities, much as I do at other websites.

    At least ML’s chattering here is less about porn than at other places! That’s a win.

    timb (2add5b)

  233. Hamas, as I’ve already mentioned, is vile. The Palestinian people are not

    So, why did the Palestinian people elect Hamas to lead them?

    Israel’s invasion of Gaza shows no signs of stopping rockets attacks

    Assuming for a moment this statement is correct, do you know what else didn’t stop the rocket attacks? Israel doing nothing.

    Since Israel is going to get shot at no matter what it does, Israel has every right to pursue military action against Hamas. Hamas is hiding among its own civilian population. Therefore, the guilt for any civilian deaths rests on Hamas. Getting mad at Israel because Hamas is doing vile things is misguided.

    Steverino (69d941)

  234. #239
    Getting mad at Israel because Hamas is doing vile things is misguided
    and disingenuous.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  235. And, ML, do try harder to hide your bigotry.you’re even showing it to these fellows.

    It never takes them long to toss the bigot/racist/homophobe/xenophobe/jingoistic/Nazi card out on the table. It is as predictable as Baracky raising taxes.

    JD (54a80f)

  236. Israel’s invasion of Gaza shows no signs of stopping rockets attacks

    Actually, it has already reduced significantly the number of rockets fired…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  237. Scott, you mean timb is making up stuff? How shocked I am…

    SPQR (72771e)


  238. Assuming for a moment this statement is correct, do you know what else didn’t stop the rocket attacks? Israel doing nothing.

    Why is it that the typical Leftist mindset automatically defaults to this bizarre concept that defending oneself against murdering terrorists makes one a bigoted warmongering imperialist?

    JD (d51bf5)

  239. Bush today pardons the Israel people after hearing from his envoy Joe the Plumber:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBwRP78Fw7E

    BreakRoomLive (db7e94)

  240. JD, I was surprised to see you here, since you know about half of the story….that’s so much more than you usually know about a subject

    (other than ripping off worker’s comp premiums that is).

    You with 50% knowledge! It’s like a group home production of Dumb and Dumber with ML and JD doing some of their finest work! I feel so glad I could bring two angry, white men together and I’m glad I was here to see it.

    Bringing two conservatives together in hate? California voters specifically rejected that, but at least Obama favors civil unions for the two of you.

    timb (8f04c0)

  241. Someone needs to get back on its’ meds.

    AD (87db80)

  242. Leaving aside the fact that I agree Israel is perfectly justified in flattening Hamas, let’s face it: Joe the Doofus out there as a reporter is embarassing and a joke. I agree with how Jon Stewart characterized good ol’ Joe’s reporting: doing his best to make willful ignorance seem like it’s some sort of refreshing, downhome virtue. J the P is a tool.

    Ted (198cc6)

  243. […] even more significant is the complete misunderstanding of the reaction to Joe the Correspondent, according to which Joe is to be admired because he annoys liberals. Unlike Palin, who really did inspire a visceral […]

    Eunomia » The Second Time As Farce (c8cc0c)


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