Patterico's Pontifications

1/9/2009

More Widely Divergent Reports of the Percentage of Palestinians Killed in Gaza Who Are Civilians

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:15 pm



A story today in the L.A. Times:

Israel was under increasing international pressure over a military campaign that has killed more than 780 Palestinians, at least one-third of them civilians, according to Gaza medical workers.

MSNBC:

By Friday evening, more than 20 Palestinians had been reported killed during the day, pushing the death toll for the two-week conflict to around 780, according to Gaza health officials who said at least half of those killed were civilians.

The National:

Al Haq, a Palestinian legal rights group, warned that 80 per cent of the 700 Palestinians killed in the fighting so far have been civilians. According to figures cited by the World Health Organisation, at least 40 per cent have been children. Another 3,000 Gazans have been wounded.

Nothing inconsistent about any of this, of course. If 110% of the casualties were infants, it would still be true that “at least one-third” or “at least half” were civilians. You know . . . technically.

Still, don’t the huge discrepancies indicate some level of uncertainty . . . and some responsibility on the part of news organizations to flag that uncertainty — beyond simply identifying the source?

Not that doctors would ever lie about such things . . .

78 Responses to “More Widely Divergent Reports of the Percentage of Palestinians Killed in Gaza Who Are Civilians”

  1. I think I just saw a headline from the Lancet with an estimate of 10,000 dead, 9,500 of them civilians.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  2. What are you talking about? They’re all civilians defending their homeland agaisnt the great devil’s advocate.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  3. No, Lancet said that it was one trillion dead with one and a half trillion civilians.

    (Trillions! The new hundreds!)

    red (c80113)

  4. Q: What does the MSM call a dead Hamas soldier?

    A: Doctor.
    B: Peace Activist.
    C: Civilian.
    D: Child
    E: All of the above.

    Perfect Sense (9d1b08)

  5. I just heard from Gaza medical officials that 150% of those killed were children. 300% of them had their heads bitten off by unmanned aerial vehicles.

    Pablo (99243e)

  6. Al Jazeera has another version:

    More than 780 people, including at least 257 children and 56 women, have been killed during Israel’s aerial bombardment and ground offensive, the UN has said.

    These numbers are similar to those reported by The National (257+56/780 = 40%), but that includes women and children. They are about halfway between the 1/3 reported by the L.A. Times and the 1/2 estimated by MSNBC.

    DRJ (345e40)

  7. I’m almost tempted to believe the media sources just can’t do math.

    DRJ (345e40)

  8. Every time these Hamas rocket scientists launch rockets at Israel, the response is predictable. Israel levels the place. Lots of innocent civilians are killed along with a few Hamas. So why does the Hamas subject the civilian population to this over & over? The Hamas doest care who they kill. The Hamas need to be exterminated like vermin.

    Hondo (7cfd24)

  9. The MSM does not care if their math is accurate.

    They don’t care about being accurate, period.

    They care about ratings/sales, and to that end they embrace every unconfirmed report. The larger the ugly number, the better.

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  10. Perhaps if Israel allowed the media into Gaza we would have better information.

    PC (766297)

  11. PC – There have been media embeds with the IDF.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  12. Perhaps if Israel allowed the media into Gaza we would have better information.

    — One thing’s for sure: we’d have an accurate tally of the number of dead media people.

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  13. PC – I do have some definite suggestions on members of the media I’d like to see reporting from there, but I doubt they’d go.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  14. The Israelis have banned a lot of media since the biased reporting in Lebanon in 2006. Most of the MSM use Palestinian stringers anyway and that is like using Hamas press releases.

    MIke K (ee3203)

  15. No matter what figure of casualties you use it is a surprisingly small number considering the Israelis have hit such a small area with about 1000 air strikes,

    If they were waging war on civilians the numbers would be much larger.

    I think even the IDF’s detractors will admit they usually hit what they aim at.

    Dan Kauffman (3c9c17)

  16. Frankly, I’m starting to think Israel should just launch, on a 1 for 1 basis, rockets at Gaza. Without aiming.

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  17. Decent balanced Tel Aviv English language online newspaper

    http://www.haaretz.com/

    EricPWJohnson (5a816b)

  18. Mr Jacobs: would you approve of somewhat different yields for the Israeli rockets?

    The Dana seeking clarification (556f76)

  19. Perhaps if Israel allowed the media into Gaza we would have better information

    Or not.

    Hamas government reinforces control over Gaza Strip media

    Reporters Without Borders is concerned about a new system of accreditation that Ismael Haniyeh’s government has announced for all telecommunications companies, Internet service providers, broadcast media and news agencies based in the Gaza Strip, which has been controlled by the Islamist party Hamas since June 2007.

    The press freedom organisation also calls for the release of three journalists who have been held without explanation since 12 October in the Gaza Strip town of Deir Al-Balah.

    Yusef Al-Mansi, the Hamas government’s minister of communication and information technology, told Reporters Without Borders that the aim of his directive, issued on 13 October, was “simply to regulate the work of the media in accordance with the law in effect since 1996.”

    “This decisions seems above all to be motivated by Hamas’ desire to control the press,” Reporters Without Borders said. “The Islamist party is trying to give itself the tools that allow it to legally ban news media that show too much support for the Palestinian Authority.

    “After closing the state-owned Palestinian Broadcasting Corporation, banning distribution of the pro-Fatah newspapers Al-Hayat Al-Jadida and Al-Ayyam and arresting dozens of journalists, the Haniyeh government is going one step further by issuing this highly questionable directive. The Palestinian Authority is no better, as news media affiliated to Hamas are no longer allowed to work in the West Bank.

    “One of the results of these coercive measures imposed by Hamas is to force Palestinian journalists to censor themselves. They are also helping to delay the return of foreign journalists, who pulled out of the Gaza Strip after British journalist Alan Johnston’s abduction. Pluralism and media diversity are threatened by this kind of decision.”

    Pablo (99243e)

  20. Breaking News: According to Palestinian health officials, out of the 1,800 Palestinians dead, only 15 were Hamas militants. Others were foreign observers, tourists, women, children and UFOs.
    This Just In: There will be a shortage in the supply of popcorns this month. So stock up as much as you can, folks. It’s gonna get uglier this time around.

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  21. would you approve of somewhat different yields for the Israeli rockets?

    Most certainly… But only if there are strong winds out of the east…

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  22. Just who counts as a civilian in a guerrilla war? Do the Hamas fighters carry documentation or wear dog tags saying, “Umgwana kik Booti, Hamas Militia, Serial # OU812?” Do they wear distinctive uniforms, complete with rank insignia?

    But, a close reading of the Hamas Charter tells us that there are no civilians at all there. The Preamble states that

    The Islamic world is on fire. Each of us should pour some water, no matter how little, to extinguish whatever one can without waiting for the others.

    That would seem to include the entire Islamic population.

    Article 4 says:

    The Islamic Resistance Movement welcomes every Moslem who embraces its faith, ideology, follows its programme, keeps its secrets, and wants to belong to its ranks and carry out the duty. Allah will certainly reward such one.

    Article 7 says:

    As a result of the fact that those Moslems who adhere to the ways of the Islamic Resistance Movement spread all over the world, rally support for it and its stands, strive towards enhancing its struggle, the Movement is a universal one.

    And Article 7 continues:

    Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

    “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

    To Hamas, all who are Muslim and resist the “lackeys of Zionism” are the freedom fighters. Thus, by their own definitions, all of those killed by Israeli action who are not actively opposed to Hamas and its goals are, in fact, Hamas, and could not be called civilians.

    The notion that the Israelis are killing civilians is a Western one, kind of like the idea that the Palestinians are willing to accept Israel and live side-by-side with the Israelis in peace, if the Israelis would just be reasonable. To Hamas, the notion is ridiculous. They are willing to use it as a PR tool with which to hammer the Israelis, because they will use any tools they believe will work for them, but they have no more respect for the Western distinctions between combatants and civilians than they do for Westerners at all.

    The brutally honest Dana (556f76)

  23. Breaking News: According to Palestinian health officials, out of the 1,800 Palestinians dead, only 15 were Hamas militants. Others were foreign observers, tourists, women, children and UFOs.

    Please don’t ever tell me you didn’t mean that as snark and as a jab at the media.

    Because it’s proof that you are learning, and I would hate to have my hopes for you dashed…

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  24. Mr Jacobs: It’s very obvious; since love2008 who will now soon known as Emperor7 seems to be not entirely pro-Palestinians, he must be a Jooooo!

    The perceptive Dana (556f76)

  25. Comment by Scott Jacobs — 1/10/2009 @ 5:40 am
    The Emperor salutes you Scotty. 😉
    And yes, I am sick of the lies.

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  26. The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees.

    How’s that working out for you, Mo? The Jew seems to be putting his boot in your ass without the benefit of tree/stone cover. And not for the first time, either.

    Pablo (99243e)

  27. Comment by The perceptive Dana — 1/10/2009 @ 5:45 am
    That is very perceptive of you, Dana. The Emperor is glad to extend a hand of friendship to you. 0:)

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  28. Condi, ANSWER, the UN, Euroweenies and libtards in general would not approve, but we should just turn Mo’s Holy city of Mecca into a glass parking lot and tell the adherents of the ROP that more real estate will vanish if they don’t give up their jihad ways. Let’s face it, why the hell dow e care what the Arab street thinks anyway? Sixcty plus years of neverending Pali victimhood. They blow themselves and innocents to attain 72 virgiuns who look like yassir Arafish, he who won a nobel peace prize and was poisoned by Joos, or was it AIDS due to sodomizing young Arabs? Was Sudha’s kid really his?
    But seriously, given their penchant for violence and extreme hatred for Jews learned from the cradle, why not obliterate the Palis, since they welcome martyrdom so much? Or at least sterilize their women so they no longer bear more little mutant assassins to further their aims?

    aoibhneas (0c6cfc)

  29. I am betting my last dollar that “aoibhneas” is maddmax3. Or his twin.
    d(^_^)b

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  30. Soon to be Emperor7: The perceptive Dana always extends his hand in friendship, whether to ideological friends or foes. Just because I disagree with someone on something doesn’t mean I have to hate him.

    The friendly Dana (556f76)

  31. Comment by The friendly Dana — 1/10/2009 @ 6:35 am
    Our agreements are more than our disagreements. That makes us allies, yes?
    Atleast we agree on one thing; the greatness of this nation, world peace (if that ever exists) and faith in the God of the Jews.

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  32. and faith in the God of the Jews.

    Lord knows he’s whippin’ Allah’s butt…

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  33. Lord knows he’s whippin’ Allah’s butt…
    Ha!

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  34. Who’s retaliating against whom? We only hear about Israel’s right to defend itself. Retaliation against unlawful occupation is wrong?

    Abe March (3b0f27)

  35. Comment by Abe March — 1/10/2009 @ 7:21 am
    Retaliation against unlawful occupation is wrong?
    Israel is not wrongfully occupying it’s land. Why? Because it is her land! What part of history are you reading?

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  36. Mr March: As it happens, Israel was not occupying Gaza. Perhaps you’ve forgotten, but Israel pulled out of Gaza, lock, stock and barrel, and removed the Jewish settlers therein — a couple by force — in August of 2005. The Palestinians living in Gaza have had 3½ years to stop shooting at the former occupiers, and try to build something positive in that poor place.

    Now, try again: why were Hamas shooting rockets into Israel?

    The historian Dana (556f76)

  37. What I hate about war today is the presumption that one’s response needs to be “proportional” to the attack and it must be “precise.”

    I dunno but last I checked in war your job is to pound the enemy into submission with extreme prejudice until the enemy says “do as you wish but let us live.” Putting pain to the populace is an INTEGRAL part of this.

    Israel’s problem (and ours) is we have forgotten this fact-of-life under the guise of being humanitarian ….

    …. but there is nothing humanitarian in letting an enemy continue his ways over countless years and extending suffering on both sides.

    Think the Germans would have surrendered if we just bombed “military targets.” Um no. Same with the Japanese.

    The population would have kept egging on “the movement” out of parochial, nationalist tendencies.

    If war is politics by another means, don;t go out of your way to kill innocents, but don’t get bogged down if you do. That is how you win wars.

    Da'Shiznit (dc4a50)

  38. Or another way of putting it … “might makes right.”

    You just hope the “just” side wins because it call call more resources to the battle.

    Da'Shiznit (dc4a50)

  39. Comment by Da’Shiznit — 1/10/2009 @ 8:01 am
    Your sarcasm is becoming believable.

    love2008 who will now be known as Emperor7 (1b037c)

  40. The reason Hamas lobs their ineffective rockets into Israel is to gain the attention of the world which has ignored the Israeli blockade for the past 18 months. This blockade meant no food, no medicine, no cooking or heating oil could get into Gaza – no one could get out for medical treatment. They knew Israel would bomb the innocent again and use their incessant excuse that it is the people’s own fault for electing Hamas. You all can fight over numbers reported but the facts are the facts – genocide is being committed and it’s being done with weapons supplied by us, the US.

    Take 2 (f4f3dd)

  41. Latest QassamCount Updates
    10:36am: 8 Hamas rockets fired from Gaza hit Israel, including the cities of Ashdod and Ashkelon

    8:07pm: 18 more rockets hit Israel. So far today, Hamas fired 34 rockets from Gaza into Israel

    12:26pm: 16 additional Hamas rockets hit Israel, injuring an infant in the town of Gedera.

    Bradley J. Fikes (0ea407)

  42. Take 2 wrote:

    The reason Hamas lobs their ineffective rockets into Israel is to gain the attention of the world which has ignored the Israeli blockade for the past 18 months. This blockade meant no food, no medicine, no cooking or heating oil could get into Gaza – no one could get out for medical treatment. They knew Israel would bomb the innocent again and use their incessant excuse that it is the people’s own fault for electing Hamas. You all can fight over numbers reported but the facts are the facts – genocide is being committed and it’s being done with weapons supplied by us, the US.

    Except that Israel does not completely surround Gaza. Gaza’s southwestern border is with Egypt, with the border crossing manned by Egyptian soldiers.

    Now, if the Arab leaders actually cared about the plight of their Palestinian brethren, they could easily supply all of Gaza with food, medicine and all of the other products the people living in Gaza want and need. Some of the Arab countries are not exactly poor, and could find the extra resources to do so — if they actually wanted to do so.

    The Dana who can read a map (556f76)

  43. There is a saying amongst Egyptians which says “the only thing worse than a Jew is a Palestinian.”

    That says about everything you want to know about why Arabs don’t really help Palestinians, and frankly, no Arab country wants them around.

    Just a fact.

    Da'Shiznit (dc4a50)

  44. Shhhhh. You keep spouting facts, and you’ll expose Take 2’s opinion for what it is – another example of the left’s antisemitism.

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  45. NONE OF THE REPORTS COMING OUT OF GAZA should be believed. Hamas runs Ramattan and all other sources of news in that area. As far as I’m concerned, any news agency that passes on that kind of obvious disinformation has zero credibility. If Hamas is so upset about civilian deaths in Gaza, then they should stop firing rockets from otherwise peaceful neighborhoods. Are the Palestinian people really that stupid, that they let Hamas use them in order to incite more hatred against Israel in the Arab world? These people are astoundingly ignorant, and Hamas is just taking advantage of it.

    JohnRJ08 (a1334e)

  46. Israel instituted the blockade for what should be obvious reasons to everybody here. When Hamas, a sworn enemy of Israel that wants Israel wiped from the face of the Earth, was voted into power, it was pretty clear that sharing a open border with Gaza was out of the question.

    JohnRJ08 (a1334e)

  47. Israeli’s blockage of Gaza?
    I don’t believe any people in the history of the universe have received as much aid and supplies as the people of Gaza. They chose to waste the aid that is not secreted away in Swiss bank accounts and then they cry for more aid.

    The lack of aid is not their problem. Their love for murdering Jews is their problem.

    Perfect Sense (9d1b08)

  48. “Now, if the Arab leaders actually cared about the plight of their Palestinian brethren”
    Huh?
    “Now, if the Colombian leaders actually cared about the plight of their Venezuelan brethren.”
    Think about that parallel for a minute. I know you’ll forget about it, as you always do, but that doesn’t change the facts.

    Haaretz “The United Nations is claiming Israeli military officers have admitted there was no Palestinian gunfire emanating from inside an UNRWA school in Gaza which was shelled by an IDF tank.
    “Dozens of Palestinians were killed in the shelling.”

    The International Committee of the Red Cross on Thursday accused Israel of delaying ambulance access to the Gaza Strip and demanded it grant safe access for Palestinian Red Crescent ambulances to return to evacuate more wounded.
    Relief workers said they found four starving children sitting next to their dead mothers and other corpses in a house in a part of Gaza City bombed by Israeli forces, the Red Cross said on Thursday.”

    How do Ceasefires Unravel?
    The numbers say: Israel kills people first.

    sleepy (09c352)

  49. “Now, if the Arab leaders actually cared about the plight of their Palestinian brethren”
    Huh?
    “Now, if the Colombian leaders actually cared about the plight of their Venezuelan brethren.”
    Think about that parallel for a minute. I know you’ll forget about it, as you always do, but that doesn’t change the facts.

    Haaretz “The United Nations is claiming Israeli military officers have admitted there was no Palestinian gunfire emanating from inside an UNRWA school in Gaza which was shelled by an IDF tank.
    “Dozens of Palestinians were killed in the shelling.”

    The International Committee of the Red Cross on Thursday accused Israel of delaying ambulance access to the Gaza Strip and demanded it grant safe access for Palestinian Red Crescent ambulances to return to evacuate more wounded.
    Relief workers said they found four starving children sitting next to their dead mothers and other corpses in a house in a part of Gaza City bombed by Israeli forces, the Red Cross said on Thursday.”

    How do Ceasefires Unravel?
    The numbers say: Israel kills people first.

    sleepy (09c352)

  50. You cant always believe what you read, specially when it involves Moslems.

    In Paris, the state-owned TV network France-2 broadcasts film of dozens of dead Palestinians killed in an Israeli air raid on New Year’s Day. The channel subsequently admits that, in fact, the footage is not from January 1st 2009 but from 2005, and, while the corpses are certainly Palestinian, they were killed when a truck loaded with Hamas explosives detonated prematurely while leaving the Jabaliya refugee camp in another of those unfortunate work-related accidents to which Gaza is sadly prone. Conceding that the Palestinians supposedly killed by Israel were, alas, killed by Hamas, France-2 says the footage was broadcast “accidentally.”

    Any dead mythical Palestinian is always reported as being killed by the those evil Joooos.

    ML (14488c)

  51. The United Nations is claiming

    Yeah, they also claimed they never traffic in women, or misused the Oil for Food program…

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  52. Wow, lots of fertilizer and whatnot to deal with.

    Israel has not blockaded Gaza, to think so is silly. The borders were closed to prevent terrorists from going into Israel, but non-war supplies, such as food and medicine, were flowing from Israel to Gaza during the supposed blockade. This material is still flowing from Israel to Gaza even as the fighting continues.

    When I was attending Malone College (now Malone University) in the mid-80s, I was privileged enough to become friends with a couple unlikely room-mates. These unlikely room-mates purposely chose to be room-mates for 4 years in college, being very close friends. What made them unlikely room-mates? One was a Jew and the other was a Palestinian. Of course, they were both Christian, so that helped I’m sure.

    Malone College is Quaker-affiliated so very much Christian and, unfortunately, very much pacifist. But the college is/was very much inclusive, provided those attending followed strict rules, such as attending Christian Chapel twice a week, Monday thru Friday. Why do I say this? Because, along with the Messianic Jew and Christian Palestinian, there were devout Moslems living in peace and taking college courses together in peace. Everyone knew the rules and followed the rules and everyone was respectful.

    It can happen on a small scale but I seriously doubt it will ever happen on a large scale, especially with the complicit propaganda provided by western governments and media.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  53. The numbers say: Israel kills people first.

    WHile dates and facts say differently…

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  54. Comment by The Dana who can read a map — 1/10/2009 @ 8:59 am

    Nice catch. That propoganda has been diligently thrown around by those pro-Palestinian. And even in the pages of today’s WSJ op-ed a San Francisco professor also promotes it. Apparently Encarta or Wiki is unavailable on some people’s internet which is convenient as it relieves assigning any responsibility (moral and/or economic) to the Palestinians themselves for the sad condition of it’s people.

    “Although Israel withdrew its settlers and soldiers from Gaza in 2005, it continues to tightly regulate Gaza’s coast, airspace and borders. Thus, Israel remains an occupying power with a legal duty to protect Gaza’s civilian population. But Israel’s 18-month siege of the Gaza Strip preceding the current crisis violated this obligation egregiously. It brought economic activity to a near standstill, left children hungry and malnourished, and denied Palestinian students opportunities to study abroad.”

    Dana (137151)

  55. Gaza and Israel agree to a truce.

    Rockets sporadically fired from Gaza into Israel. Israel does not respond militarily. The truce remains in effect.

    Rinse, repeat.

    The truce ends, in accordance with the terms of the truce.

    Suddenly, Israel is attacking first and drawing blood first?

    *Yawn* I get so bored sometimes, hearing the same recycled lies.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  56. Here is the WSJ link – look for the editorial entitled, “Israel is Committing War Crimes”…

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html

    Dana (137151)

  57. sleepy/AF/blah/JAR – I thought you had been banned from this site as you acknowledged. Did Patterico agree to a reinstatement?

    Hamas celebrates the suffering its activities cause the Palestinian people. It’s all part of the propaganda campaign it is conducting to win the hearts and minds of muslims and useful idiots such as yourself. To pretend otherwise is retarded.

    sleepy, I think you need to be over in Gaza helping Hamas dig defensive tunnels under the Israeli border if you feel so strongly. To steal from a comment at another website:

    It’s the Jooooos, they’re everywhere.

    The clicking sound on your window at night, that’s not the wind, it’s a Jew Claw.

    The strange noise from your basement, a Jew sneaking up to snatch your children.

    The shadows arching over your wall at night….Jews coming to steal your blood.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  58. There is a post up over at Power Line about 200/300 Pali’s being killed in a single house in Gaza (now this is from one of the usual suspect media/Hamas Propaganda Outlets).
    I’m just wondering, what with the known fact that the IDF pre-warns “civilians” to vacate an area that will be retaliated against, if Hamas isn’t just packing the retaliatory target with civilians to deliberately drive the head-count higher?
    Nah, they wouldn’t do that.
    They represent the Religion of Peace.

    AD (4de33d)

  59. AD – They also would’t prevent people at gunpoint from leaving places that have received warnings, would they?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  60. daley…Absolutely Not!
    Why, that would be inhumane (and only slightly criminal).

    AD (4de33d)

  61. As usual the blithering idiocy and pontificating ignorance on this page is mind-boggling.

    Written by an actual Jew, and an actual Israeli:

    Avi Shlaim
    The only way to make sense of Israel’s senseless war in Gaza is through understanding the historical context. Establishing the state of Israel in May 1948 involved a monumental injustice to the Palestinians. British officials bitterly resented American partisanship on behalf of the infant state. On 2 June 1948, Sir John Troutbeck wrote to the foreign secretary, Ernest Bevin, that the Americans were responsible for the creation of a gangster state headed by “an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders”. I used to think that this judgment was too harsh but Israel’s vicious assault on the people of Gaza, and the Bush administration’s complicity in this assault, have reopened the question.

    I write as someone who served loyally in the Israeli army in the mid-1960s and who has never questioned the legitimacy of the state of Israel within its pre-1967 borders. What I utterly reject is the Zionist colonial project beyond the Green Line. The Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in the aftermath of the June 1967 war had very little to do with security and everything to do with territorial expansionism. The aim was to establish Greater Israel through permanent political, economic and military control over the Palestinian territories. And the result has been one of the most prolonged and brutal military occupations of modern times.

    sleepy (09c352)

  62. As usual the blithering idiocy and pontificating ignorance on this page is mind-boggling.

    Stop commenting, that’ll take care of it.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  63. Amusing how obsolete and irrelevant to current events all of sleepy’s comments are.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  64. You’d almost think he was a mouthpiece for one of the other dwarfs, SPQR

    Steverino (69d941)

  65. sleepy – Break out the Benny Peiser stuff. We loved that a couple of years ago.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  66. sleepy has just reverted to his original Non Sequiturs R Us role on this blog.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  67. # 61.
    Funny how one Israeli somehow speaks for the rest of them and somehow it can only be the real “truth”, and then only because he is an Israeli.

    ML (14488c)

  68. Cindy walked in behind me as I was looking at that fake CNN video again. She is an OR charge nurse. She looked at what they were doing and laughed. I didn’t have to say anything. That was not CPR.

    Mike K (ee3203)

  69. Is it just me, or is the moral depravity of the MSM continuing to ratchet downward, even post-election? How can they actually expect even intellectuals on their side to stick with them, given the blatant nature of the dissembling?

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  70. The MSM is to intellectualism,
    as the CA Legislature is to functioning government.

    AD (4de33d)

  71. To be serious, the problem with the MSM is intellectual monotheism. My father had a pithier expression for it, involving a circle and what Jocelyn Elders tried to promote in the schools.

    To folks on the Left, it is curious: they deplore Fox News for the perception that it is “too Right wing,” while insisting that the MSM is unbiased.

    I actually think that the best course is to have a “Column Right” and “Column Left” approach to the editorial page.

    And to keeping bias out of news reporting, period.

    It’ll never happen, I realize.

    But if we don’t address it, then “different sides” will retreat into their own bunkers, and the results will be Trutherism, etc.

    It’s ironic, all the talk about diversity. I’m here to tell you, diversity only refers to melanin levels or reproductive apparatus, where government is concerned.

    But then, I am apparently a racist and sexist for noticing it.

    Don’t worry, JD. I denounced myself immediately.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  72. A good example of the nuttiness in play is explained clearly by Victor Davis Hanson:

    http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/say-they-arent-so/

    Well worth your time on this topic. Hypocrisy becomes..well…nuance.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  73. What about that pastor in OK who was previously a congressman from OK who was previously a QB at OU who was called a race-traitor by the Congressional Black Caucus? Melatonin didn’t help him any. Of course, it didn’t help a particular Justice, either. Melatonin must not be the end-all beat-all after all.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  74. Melatonin didn’t help him any

    Didn’t realize JC Watts had insomnia issues.

    (Sorry, John, couldn’t pass up that one :) )

    Steverino (69d941)

  75. 61 yeah, that all makes sense- those dirty rotten Hebes persecuting the poor helpless Palis. How dare the Israelis fight back and repel those several attacks by the Ay-rabs? That humongous and ever so potent Israeli military abusing all those Ay-rab states that outman them by huge numbers and already possess something like 16 times the land area of Israel.

    When are the Joos going to stop picking on the Moooslim mamas’ boys? Sodomizing all those goats, camels and young boys doesn’t seem to reflect back on Ay-rab virility to me. Big Mo must have a plan that will one of these days destroy the Jewish state and wipe the Jooos off the face of the earth. Perhaps the Obama regime can assist in that regard, although Condi Rice herself seems to want to help too.

    aoibhneas (0c6cfc)

  76. Too many similar words, too small a brain, plus football is on, that’s my excuse. 😉

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  77. Since Hamas does not have a uniformed military force and since all of these rag-tag terrorists are the ones that are lobbing missles into Israel and are the ones that Israel are fighting, I would contend that 100% of the Palestinian casualties are “civilian” casualties. OK, SO WHAT???

    Hangtown Bob (34b3a3)


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