Patterico's Pontifications

1/1/2009

A Neighborly Feud Ends Up in Court

Filed under: Law — DRJ @ 9:29 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

Last October, 88-year-old Ohio resident Edna Jester decided she had enough of her neighbor’s children leaving toys on her property, so she refused to return a $15 football that landed in her yard. As Jules Crittenden eloquently explained, she ended up arrested for petty theft:

“Cranky old dear gets tried [sic] of kids’ ball landing in her yard. OK, these things happen. Cranky old dear takes ball, refuses to give it back, even when cops ask her repeatedly. Cranky old dear gets arrested.”

Neighbors said there were two sides to the story and the prosecutor may have agreed since the case was later dropped. Now Edna has sued her neighbors:

“An 89-year-old Cincinnati area woman famously arrested for holding on to a neighbor kid’s football is now suing the boy’s parents. The lawsuit filed by Edna Jester’s attorney in Hamilton County Common Pleas Court claims she has suffered emotional distress because the next-door family’s footballs and other playthings keep landing in her yard.”

The neighbors, Paul and Kelly Tanis, say they have 5 kids and can’t afford a lawyer.

It’s a shame these neighbors can’t find a better way to resolve their disputes but I guess filing a lawsuit is better than some alternatives people choose. If possible, I’d send the case to mediation. They need to deal with the current issues but they also need a framework to avoid problems in the future.

— DRJ

93 Responses to “A Neighborly Feud Ends Up in Court”

  1. I’d like to see the case go to Judge Judy, so that she can yell, “STOP WASTING MY TIME!

    aunursa (e9b1f7)

  2. The parents chose to bring the legal system into this when they brought criminal charges against an elderly neighbor to coerce the return of the ball rather than working something out with her or teaching their children to respect her property. I have trouble finding sympathy for them now that she has turned to the civil court in response to the humiliation they subjected her to. Perhaps they are lucky she does not call the police and file criminal charges every time the children trespass or throw things onto her property. This would seem harsh but fair under the circumstances. I hope she wins.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  3. Neighbor disputes of any kind are dangerous but land disputes between neighbors is all that much worst, working as a land surveyor I can attest to that, nobody is ever happy when they found out what exactly they really own or where the location is, luckily I haven’t been shot yet.

    This dispute is easy or was easy to solve, I would make my kids keep the ball out of her yard no matter what. For this older woman to sue I think that is a bit ridiculous but I do understand her plight. I have had many neighbors that are nothing but an irritation, wether it is dogs barking 24/7 or loud parties every weekend until 2am and even just really loud stereos that start at 1am for band practice.

    ML (14488c)

  4. The article says she has complained and kept balls before. Clearly the parents know the children are showing utter contempt for the old lady and don’t care. The whole family seems to think that the old lady is their pet who must play fetch with their toys for their amusement. I was not raised that way.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  5. If the facts are correctly reported, then Jester is on the right side of the law. It is the responsibility of the neighbors to keep their kid’s balls and toys within their property.

    Actually, this is perfectly appropriate subject matter for a lawsuit, and filing a lawsuit is in no way “ridiculous”. If a neighbor persistently creates a legal nuisance, then a civil lawsuit is the appropriate way to settle the matter. The alternatives like repeatedly calling the police on each other or violence are unacceptable. The whole point of the civil tort system’s law of nuisance is to get these matters dealt with before one side or the other does something criminal.

    These kinds of situations can sometimes be dealt with by mediation, but other times not. My favorite situation was a neighbor dispute in Topanga Canyon. The firm I was working for had a crack land-use team. They were hired by a neighborhood group to go after a contractor who kept building on his lot in defiance of zoning and permitting requirements. The neighbors, who included a retired LA Superior Court judge, pitched in a good $150k to litigate against the contractor to force him to tear his house down; the contractor likely paid an equal amount to his attorneys, winning initially at the administrative level but then losing at trial and on appeal.

    The case could not get mediated or settled because the contractor simply refused to obey the law, believing this was a matter of fundamental principal. When one is dealing with a neighbor who takes that attitude, litigation is the only avenue.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  6. I didn’t realize it when I posted this but this may be a good example of the different ways lawyers and non-lawyers view problems.

    As a homeowner and neighbor, I absolutely agree these parents should teach their kids to respect their neighbor and her property — especially since she is elderly and may be living alone. In fact, instead of leaving things in her yard, they should offer to help her take care of her yard and home. It’s rarely easy for older people to take care of their homes or to pay for home maintenance.

    However, as a lawyer, I’m concerned with resolving this in a way that keeps it from escalating and (hopefully) gives these neighbors a way to live together in peace or at least a truce. There are rarely outright winners or losers in court, and it’s preferable that problems like this — where the parties are neighbors and will be around each other every day — can be resolved out-of-court. Most lawyers try to do that before they file suit and I suspect Edna’s lawyer tried to find common ground with the neighbors, not only because it makes sense but also because it may help Edna in court.

    DRJ (1a6fbf)

  7. Toys and balls = Land use and zoning violations

    Good analogy Cyrus.

    Buffoon

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  8. This is kind of funny in a way. My daughter, who is 14, and I have been watching Adam-12 over the holidays. I don’t know why, but she loves the show. She wants to buy a t-shirt with Reed and Malloy on it.

    I remember the show from when I was much younger than her. It made me want to be a policeman, but I grew up and found other interests. Sometimes I regret my decisions.

    But, I guess my naive point is this: Reed and Malloy would have solved the problem without the courts.

    Cyrus has already told us why this is important from a legal standpoint, but what happened to common sense? Why can’t neighbors solve problems without resorting to the courts?

    I guess that’s impossible now.

    Ag80 (06f83d)

  9. Wait a second, I misread Cyrus’ response. I agree.

    Ag80 (06f83d)

  10. I found Cyrus Sanai’s comment quite appropriate. Am I missing something or am I a Buffoon as well?

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  11. I think Cyrus is legally correct but it’s unfortunate that the court system has to resolve a neighborhood dispute like this. Not every neighborhood has a builder who refuses to obey all zoning laws but almost every neighborhood has neighbors who disagree over noise, kids, or the like. It’s discouraging that the parties apparently can’t resolve these problems by sitting down and talking about them, especially after the police have gotten involved.

    DRJ (1a6fbf)

  12. “Solving the problem” is only possible when both sides are willing. The old woman has made her concerns known and the parents have ignored them. She acted to teach the children that throwing toys into her yard meant losing the toys. It seems the only alternative that the neighbors will accept is for the old woman to fetch the toys on demand or give the delinquents free run of her property. What then? What happens when they start throwing things into her house? To say the woman must fetch the balls on demand or be charged with theft is an outrage. What if it was your Grandmother being harassed this way?

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  13. Machinist,

    If this were my grandmother, I would encourage her not to start WWIII with her neighbors simply because they irritate her unless both she and her attorney had done everything they could to avoid litigation. That may be what happened here, in which case (as I said in the post) this may be the best option under the circumstances.

    DRJ (1a6fbf)

  14. Gentle DRJ, I was raised to respect my elders and my neighbors, as you mentioned. We had neighbors who did not like children and my parents told us that any ball that went into their yard was theirs’ and we were not to bother them asking for it. We learned to be careful.

    If the old lady was complaining about the kids making noise or playing in the streets I would be more sympathetic to the parents but I just don’t see what alternative the old lady has at this point. I admire her for not turning to the courts until the others called in the police, first.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  15. Gentle DRJ, we are cross posting. My earlier remark was not directed at you and was in any case not meant as a slap or slight. My respects.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  16. I agree about getting along with neighbors. I am much less inclined to complain about a neighbor than my wife or her sisters. I think one should not poop where one eats or trouble one’s own house.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  17. “Am I missing something or am I a Buffoon as well?”

    Machinist – I suggest you choose to label yourself since I don’t know you. I fail to see the similarity in a dispute between two neighbors over toys and a dispute where an entire neighborhood bands together, raises $150,000 and takes one of their residents to court. Perhaps it is I that am missing something. Perhaps you are also reading too much into the situation as well:

    “The old woman has made her concerns known and the parents have ignored them.”

    Where did you find support for that statement in DRJ’s post or her links? Do you believe it is possible to completely monitor and restrain five children 24/7 so that no stray balls may wind up outside of their yard? Seriously?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  18. Daleyrocks,

    “Do you believe it is possible to completely monitor and restrain five children 24/7 so that no stray balls may wind up outside of their yard?”

    No I do not. I do think that the parents should have been able to improve the situation and should have supported the old lady when the children continued to throw balls into her yard. Instead they demanded the woman fetch the ball and called the police when she refused and made a criminal complaint. This is in the articles in the links, plus one link through to the station report. The other neighbors supported the old lady’s story.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  19. I didn’t take any of your comments as a slight. It’s an interesting subject to talk about.

    Having more facts would be helpful. For instance, I would be more likely to view this as a court issue if the toys posed a danger because they were left on the walkways or in areas where Edna or her guests might fall. Likewise, learning that the incidents happened everyday or several times a week would make a difference. Finally, it would matter to me if the parents and children were rude to Edna or ignored her concerns when she tried to talk to them.

    On the other hand, I would be less sympathetic to Edna if the incidents happened a few times a month and the parents were apologetic but simply too harried to give it the attention Edna felt it deserved. After all, life is different for families with 5 children than it is for a person living alone. It’s possible Edna’s standards for home maintenance and misplaced toys are more rigorous than her neighbors’, but I don’t think we all have to conform to the same standards.

    DRJ (1a6fbf)

  20. With all due respect to DRJ and Patterico, I was struck by something that DRJ wrote:

    “…There are rarely outright winners or losers in court…”

    Um. Actually, there are.

    The lawyers for both sides, generally speaking.

    Again, no disrespect intended to attorneys present. My brother and uncle are lawyers, in fact.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  21. Re: calling the police — I don’t like that either. But although Edna’s refusal to return the ball may or may not have been legal, it clearly wasn’t neighborly. She is obviously frustrated but that doesn’t help us decide if her frustration is reasonable.

    DRJ (1a6fbf)

  22. Clarification: with a few exceptions, the lawyers for both sides of a dispute get paid. In that sense, they are indeed winners.

    I’m not saying that the legal system isn’t necessary.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  23. Eric,

    Maybe. I litigated cases during the first years of my career but it’s hard to do a good job without putting everything else in your life in second place. Being in trial is the closest to working 24/7 I’ve come in my professional life. Money is great but it isn’t enough to make me want to do that for the rest of my life.

    DRJ (1a6fbf)

  24. “No I do not. I do think that the parents should have been able to improve the situation and should have supported the old lady when the children continued to throw balls into her yard. Instead they demanded the woman fetch the ball and called the police when she refused and made a criminal complaint.”

    Machinist – We agree on that. The situation could have been improved. I see nothing about a criminal complaint in the links. The police arrested her because she failed to return the neighbors football. She refused to sign a form at the police station, leading to additional problems. Do you see anything about the neighbors pressing charges? I don’t.

    You also didn’t the parents ignoring repeated warnings. Where did you see that? What relevance do the opinions of the neighbors have?

    Also, what soning and land use issues were raised by this case that make it similar to the one used by Cyrus as an analogy? Was the Tanis yard supposed to be a no play zone?

    I’m starting to think that your initial position was buffoonish but that you are getting more reasonable.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  25. According to the arresting officers her refusal was theft. If this is correct it is wrong. I am 57 and I have always gotten along well with neighbors and their children but a woman alone in her late 80s would naturally feel insecure and harassed by repeated violations of her property by the toys and by the children demanding she retrieve the toys. The ball belonged to the 16 year old son and the mother demanded its return and called the police. I find it hard to match this with an overworked but sincere parent. 16 is old enough to face some responsibility in such matters.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  26. # 5, Cyrus Sanai

    I said it was “a bit ridiculous”, and I am speaking to the fact that these people are neighbors having to see each other more often then not and live next to each other, so I conclude suing your next door is not a good way to mend any fences, whether it has any legal merit is beside the point in my opinion.

    I speak from the school of hard knocks, I have called the cops on my various neighbors over a half-dozen times and had one of them call the cops on me one time.

    ML (14488c)

  27. I wanted to add that in 20 years or so I have lived in 5 different locations so it all didn’t happen in one place, which is just my luck.

    ML (14488c)

  28. When I posted that, DRJ, I worried it would seem harsh. But—current attorneys excepted—I know that there are many lawyers who know full well that keeping the case roiling and running up the billable hours is in their best interests.

    So the comments THEY make about fighting for their clients makes me feel nervous. Personally, I had a lawyer drag out my long-ago divorce far more than necessary. In fact, my ex-wife realized what was going on, and that I didn’t have much in the way of financial resources, and she fired the guy…and we settled things out very quickly as a result.

    By no means is that sort of thing the rule, I know.

    That there are many lawyers who give their all for their clients is a given. My only point is that both sets of lawyers make money from the proceedings.

    But what is the alternative? There is none. But in this Hot-Coffee-Litigating age, many non-lawyers (and a few lawyers, too) worry.

    Incidentally, DRJ, you strike me as the kind of lawyer who would tell a potential client that they really don’t need a lawyer…when they really don’t. And in my own dealings with the legal profession, I cannot think of higher praise.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  29. Daleyrocks,

    The article indicated she had complained and had kept toys before. This was not the first time.

    The officers could not demand the return of the ball and charge her with theft if the complaint had not been made. I am not qualified on this and welcome correction by anyone with legal knowledge.

    I am not aware of any change in my position from my first comment. I support private property rights and the right of an old lady to have some dignity, peace, and security in her own home.

    The commenter’s post seemed to deal with the legal aspect of property rights and the role of litigation when violations can not be worked out informally. Is this not the main issue of this post?

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  30. “Do you believe it is possible to completely monitor and restrain five children 24/7 so that no stray balls may wind up outside of their yard?”

    My Dad thought so. We disagreed, but he ultimately proved he was right.

    fat tony (3ee996)

  31. A possible correction. I said the boy was 16. I can’t find the reference to his age I thought I saw so I may be wrong. He was old enough to be working and earning the money to buy the ball. Sorry.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  32. Buckeyes are useless nuts. This only reconfirms it.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  33. “The article indicated she had complained and had kept toys before. This was not the first time.”

    Machinist – Where does it say the Tanis’ ignored her complaints? That’s just your assumption isn’t it, because toys didn’t completely stop crossing yards?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  34. Daleyrocks,

    The toys continued to land in her yard and the parents insisted she return them rather than punishing the children so yes, I feel they did not effectively address the issue with their children. These were not toddlers. Teenagers must learn some responsibility. You throw your toy in the lady’s yard, you lose it and must face me! This was how many of us were taught and we learned respect for other peoples’ property. These parents seem to take a different approach.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  35. Eric,

    Don’t worry so much about offending me. I like discussions and I could never be offended by one with you, whether we agree or not.

    Machinist,

    It’s my recollection the boy with the wayward football was 14, not 16, but that’s not much difference. We should also keep in mind that newspaper articles don’t always tell the whole story. (That should be especially easy to remember on this blog!) Thus, your version of the facts may be the most accurate but there could be another side, too.

    DRJ (1a6fbf)

  36. Gentle DRJ,

    I know nothing but what I read on the links you provided and the links from those pages. The neighbors seemed to back the old lady’s side, or at least what she was reported to have said and that it had been an ongoing issue. I don’t know what the lady should do short of this. I do not think she should be forced to allow these kids on her property given the lack of respect they have shown for her privacy and property. The mother admitted there had been trouble before, that the lady had kept other toys, and that the ball had gone into the old lady’s yard. The lady said ,

    “I was giving it back sooner or later, but not right now so they could make a laughing stock out of me,”.

    I respect that she did not resort to the police earlier. I can’t blame her for suing now. What else can she do?

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  37. “The toys continued to land in her yard and the parents insisted she return them rather than punishing the children”

    Machinist – I guess I keep missing the part in the articles where it talks specifically about the parents ignoring the warnings and now you bring up failing to punish the children. Perhaps in your next comment you cut cut and paste those sections of the articles here.

    Alternatively, I suggest you read DRJ’s comments about not having enough information at this point to draw conclusions. I suggest you are drawing conclusions that you want to draw and which may indeed be logicaland correct, but aren’t necessarily supported by the level of detail of information we have been given at this point.

    Your failure to produce the information I requested twice now suggests that the conclusions are based on your inferences and not outlined or presented in the articles. If I’m wrong, again, please cut and paste the appropriate sections.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  38. DRJ, I do think that folks get rough here from time to time. I had been getting very angry with trolls recently (which, I know, is the goal of trolls).

    Anyway, I have never seen you be anything but temperate in your dealings with others—and I was trying to be very certain that I was following your example a bit better than I have been managing of late.

    Though I lack your innately calm demeanor, I suspect.

    But thank you for your note, regardless.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  39. These are the lines that led me to these conclusions. Is there something to make you doubt them, Sir?
    _____________________________________

    Kelly Tanis has five children and says Jester has taken balls from her children before. So she called the police.

    “This time it was a ball that my son had just bought with his own money. He works and he makes his own money, and he bought that ball, and six days later she took it.”
    ___________________________

    Neighbors say the issue of where the kids should and shouldn’t play has been ongoing for quite some time.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  40. Daleyrocks, have you watched the video, Sir?

    Where do the old lady’s rights to her property that she pays for compare with the teenager’s right to his ball that he paid for? It seems the teenager’s rights are much stronger than her’s.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  41. When I was growing up we had an elderly neighbor who had a fence around her yard. She had a medium sized garden and kept the yard looking immaculate. Her husband had passed many years before and her daughter lived with her.
    When we hit a baseball or some other toy into her yard our parents expected us to go to her door, ring the doorbell and ask nicely if we could retrieve the item. This happened often since there were 8 boys living in the houses surrounding her.
    She was always cross when asked but never refused or tried to hold the items hostage. Her gruff demeanor combined with our parents insistence that we must ask politely made us be a little more selective about where we set up the bases or goal lines. Of course this was 40 years ago in a different kind of society…

    voiceofreason2 (ee2eb9)

  42. I am on the side of the old lady. She is entitled to the quiet use and enjoyment of her property. Footballs in her yard are litter and she has no duty to the litterers to return them. She was not guilty of theft in the first case, the kids were guilty of trespassing.

    Depending on how her complaint is drafted, the Tanis’s may be entitled to defense and indemnity under their home-owners’ insurance. It may also lead to a quick settlement and Mrs. Jester can use the money to build a higher fence. The Tanis’s can look forward to having their premiums go up or having their insurance cancelled altogether.

    nk (d08690)

  43. I’m with the elderly lady on this. The Tanis family escalated the situation out of the neighborhood and into the legal arena, not the lady. There were life lessons to be learned by the youths, and the parents failed to teach them.

    It appears that the lady is going to be the one to do it, and also to provide life lessons to all of the Tanis family, parents included, and to all the neighborhood. They should thank her.

    It has been said by some who write of the Wild West that it was a polite society, as so many wore guns and were ready to use them if they felt the occasion warranted it. Perhaps lawyers may serve as guns now.

    jim2 (ce7cdf)

  44. The old lady should move to Florida, she’ll live longer and the weather’s better.

    Ropelight (d40bc3)

  45. Good analogy Cyrus.

    The man is exactly the kind of neighbor that would cause me to give my kids stuff to chuck onto his lawn, only because I know it would annoy…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  46. Scott Jacobs – #45

    To which man to you refer? Or did you mean the 88 year old woman (who lives alone) in the original story?

    jim2 (ce7cdf)

  47. Err, “… do you refer?” – my typo.

    jim2 (ce7cdf)

  48. VOR, I had a similar experience as a child. We had a little shop, called “La Mode Dress shop,” on the corner a block from my house. It had a fenced yard and the mean woman who ran the shop and lived in back would run out and grab any toy or ball that fell in her yard. She was a legend to the children. It was even said that she was divorced and had to pay alimony to her ex-husband!

    Every Halloween, the neighborhood kids got their revenge as her mailbox exploded and her shop windows were covered with paraffin, which is not easy to get off. It was an armed truce but no police were ever called.

    As you say, that was another time.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  49. I believe that my parents would have been down on the 5 of us for having left our toys in danger of being lost or ruined. To wit: “You lost your ball? Then you’ll have to do without, I can’t afford to replace all the toys you loose. Next time take care of your toys.”

    The old lady probably over reacted by not returning the ball when the parents asked for it, but the parents are typical helicopter twits and their children are learning the wrong lessons. Boneheads.

    quasimodo (eb087d)

  50. I completely side with the elderly woman. 88 years old is very old. How difficult is it to even answer her doorbell, let alone go out in the backyard to retrieve a ball? Even if she is a healthy 88, it might still be a hardship to do the smallest of tasks. It sees as if this not being taken into consideration. It’s nothing for kids to repeatedly ring a doorbell and ask to retrieve their ball but it may require a Herculean effort on the elderly woman’s part to answer the door let alone get the ball.

    Because of how and when I was raised, the onus would have been on me as a kid to avoid at all costs knocking the ball in her yard. One time would be allowed to learn from but that’s it. If more than that, the ball would have been considered lost. We eventually learned.

    Dana (137151)

  51. Sorry, but I also side with the elderly woman; I’ve been watching way too many parents today act as if their offspring are fully – evolved adults, but also with the kind of coddling that would have made myself and my friends laugh out loud at them if we had been the same ages as the children. They’re raising a breed of feckless wussies out there – let me get this straight, the parents are peeved over their poor little one’s losses of a few farkin’ footballs? And instead of telling their brat that he needs to man up and take some responsibility for his actions and tough nuggies and so on, they call the cops on her? Shame on them, shame on the entire family -I hope they lose their shirts in court, they richly deserve it.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  52. but the parents are typical helicopter twits and their children are learning the wrong lessons. Boneheads.

    Bingo.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  53. To which man do you refer

    “the man” I was referring to was Cyrus…

    But yes, the old biddy would also get similar treatment. I was a kid living next to a pair like that once and I assure you, the kids need not be trying to – and in fact might be actively trying to avoid – hit stuff/have stuff land in her yard.

    She likely isn’t some sweet dear that bakes cookies for new parents. Odds are fair that she’s more than a little bitter that her kids never bother to come around for a visit, or call. The reason for that is aptly demonstrated by her suing for emotional damage because stuff LANDS IN HER YARD.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  54. I would ask her to buy 5 Cincinatti Bengals fan footballs for the kids. Give her story to the front office, including her age, and ask if some large football-looking guy could deliver the stuff to the kids with a message about respecting neighbors and respecting the elderly. Maybe a nice person would do a couple of follow-up phone calls as reminders. That’s $50 for the stuff. If the kids don’t stop, then call a lawyer.

    Vermont Neighbor (ceab4f)

  55. She should electrify her fence. That’ll teach the kids to respect her property. ZAP!!!!

    STAY OFF MY LAWN PISSANTS!!!!!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  56. Judge Judy to the rescue!!!!

    Oiram (983921)

  57. She lives in a mobile home park and has no fence around her front yard. It was the father who threw the football into her yard so it would seem the kids are not getting the right lesson. She has a right to be rather a crank on her own property without being terrorized by kids, as some have suggested they would do. I do not suggest that these kids have done so, I just say that they have to accept the loss of toys that go into her yard unless she decides to toss them back. I am not impressed with either parents words or actions in this matter.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  58. If I lost a ball in the mean old neighbor’s yard, my dad would have said, “tough, keep your ball out of her yard next time.” If he did anything, he would have made me apologize to her and maybe cut her grass. It’s called a life lesson, and a cheap one at that.

    Instead, these parents called the cops. Now the chickens have come home to roost. Too bad for everyone, but the parents turned up the heat when they didn’t need to. Hopefully they’ll learn something from this.

    tim maguire (72f509)

  59. She lives in a mobile home park ….

    Ok, I did not know that. That changes things for me. I’m on nobody’s side. As long as the whole bunch of them stay out of my neighborhood.

    nk (d08690)

  60. If I lost a ball in the mean neighbor’s yard, my dad would say, “tough, you should been more careful with your ball.” If he did more than that, it would be to send me over to apologize and maybe cut her grass.

    The parents upped the ante on this dispute by calling the police. I have no sympathy for them. They have obligations to their neighbors and their children no matter how many kids they have.

    tim maguire (72f509)

  61. Keeping it out of court…
    I have a neighbor who from the get-go has had loud parties that extend into the wee-small hours irrespective of the day-of-the-week. After many, many calls to the PD about not being able to get any sleep, I finally said I wanted to file a complaint after a particularly annoying incident.
    When the officer came to my door, at around 0230, he mentioned that on his original visit around mid-night, he had told the neighbor that a repeat visit might involve legal action that could be costly – starting in the four-figure range. He asked me if I wanted to sign the complaint that would impose such costs on my neighbor? My response was I was tired of the inconveniences imposed upon me, and something was needed to get my neighbor’s attention. I signed.
    There have not been any loud parties now for four months.

    AD (58f7b4)

  62. To me, the critical issue is in the first line, “leaving toys on her property.” It is one thing for the ball to fall on another’s yard and the kids to run and pick it up and keep playing. It is another thing for the ball to be left there overnight or for several days out of some kind of laziness or entitlement or what-have-you. I don’t know if the elderly lady’s fence is locked and the kids can’t get in to retrieve their gear and I can’t guarantee that this isn’t an ‘old lady runs out to grab ball’ situation but the first line indicates that the toys were ‘left’ for some unreasonable unattended period of time.

    If you leave someone on someone else’s property, at what point does it become abandoned? When can Edna rightfully take ownership of the ball, and (as I would do) donate it to charity?

    luagha (5cbe06)

  63. I read the linked articles and saw nothing about a trailer park. The suburb was described as “affluent.” My short answer is the old lady has them dead to rights. If I were them, I would be calling my homeowners’ insurance agent and trying to settle.

    Mike K (531ff4)

  64. I guess my comment got lost. I think this old lady has the parents dead to rights. They should be calling their homeowners’ insurance agent and asking to settle. The neighbors have video and support her, according to the article.

    Mike K (531ff4)

  65. I hate people who have so many children that they can’t afford to pay foreseeable expenses arising from the lousy job they’re doing raising those children.

    Alan (551a6d)

  66. I live in a townhouse community now with few kids, but they usually seem to mirror the general demeanor and attitude of parents.

    Stereotypically it appears that renters don’t take care of property and the yoots are especially irritating.

    I think this old lady was pissed that they sicced the cops on her and felt wronged. Yes, old people can be a royal pain in the ass, but one can still strive not to harrass them. I’m sure a mobile home community has less privacy as it is. Perhaps the dearth of kids is a good reason to live in an over 55 community? Even then, “adults” can be right a$$holes also. When I lived in a condo on the ground floor, I was blessed with perpetual series of renters above me for neighbors. Loud parties, empty booze bottles tossed off the balconies to lie on grass, flooding through ceiling deemed an act of god by insurance company and subject to my own deductible. I mean a score of leaks from above over the years.

    So where do you go for privacy? I’m thinking a cabin on a mountain, but I’m sure you then have the ATV assclowns. Had them running through my yard in winter with the snowmobiles.
    At least in LA you can have some privacy and even manage the traffic better, at least it appears Kiefer Sutherland managed to get across town post haste in 24 series.
    Can you imagine disrepectful kids effing around with games and toys on some gangbanger/drug pusher property? The pitbulls would have them for breakfast. Look at the gangbanger punks wrong and they cop a real mean attitude. Don’t diss the iceholes. No wonder you sometimes an old codger fed up who then blows some punk away. Might not be right, but said deceased punks show no recidivism and avoid the criminal justice system forever more.
    Yeah, I was young at one time and capable of disrespect and reckless behaviors, such as driving like the devil was chasing me. “I” thought myself capable of handling speed and strove to double the posted speed limits throughout Connecticut. Now I see rice rockets here in s. fla. doing way over 100 mph on I-95. Cops mostly leave the ones doing 180 mph alone. And there is no helmet law, so…….

    aoibhneas (0c6cfc)

  67. I grew up in Brooklyn in the 50’s and it was a time when kids were out in the streets and sidewalks all the time. We had our share of cranky, old folks who we used to annoy just for the sport of it.

    But, we also knew when enough was enough. The fun ended when any parent told us to stop and God forbid it ever came down to as large an issue as the police or courts. We had enough common sense to know we were wrong and our guilt was the default position of our parents. Today, the opposite is in place—“my little angels aren’t to blame.”

    But I think our deepest fears were that the “issue” might work its way to the school level and the nuns would become involved. In which case, the cranky old victim would never be bothered again…ever.

    PC14 (82e46c)

  68. There is a video on one of the follow through links to a news channel, WCPO. The mobile homes and people are shown. The mother posted quite a bit on the internet in various places in Oct. There is a lady that has called police often on the neighbors but this old lady has never done so. She does not care for children and does not want them or their toys on her property.

    http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story/88-Year-Old-Woman-Arrested-For-Taking-A-Ball/aA3yB4IBF0ycBGb1B6hVIA.cspx

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  69. This may sound stupid (and it probably is) but it is a matter best handled at mediation at this point. This is not about lawsuit abuse, this is about civil rancor that undobutably escallated.

    Trust me, there is ususally two sides to these things.

    Joe (dcebbd)

  70. The video on the WCPO link shows the mobile homes and people. The mother has posted a number of times on various sights. There is a woman who often calls the police on the neighbors but the old lady never did so. She does not care for kids and does not want them or their toys in her yard.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  71. The default position is kids are guilty until proven innocent. Kids love to nooge each other and cranky old people.

    I once messed with a cranky neighbor’s Christmas display. He chased me and fell (which was funny, until I got home and had to speak with my parents). I was around seven or eight. My parents were very upset (I don’t know if they spanked me, but let’s just say it was NOT considered acceptable and I was made to know that). Fortunately the old guy did not break a hip and I had to go back with plates of fudge and cookies, apologize sincerely, and generally promise never to do that again.

    Joe (dcebbd)

  72. Joe, you were lucky. My father-in-law had his small dogs out in front one day and an old lady was walking her little dog. The dogs got into a rumpus and the lady fell and broke her hip. She was operated on by a surgeon I know and would not send my dog to. She died. There was a lawsuit but his homeowners’ insurance covered it. Nobody’s fault but he was upset when he learned what happened.

    Mike K (8df289)

  73. Interesting discussion.

    I want to point out that my statement was predicated on the facts being as written in the original post and news articles. Different facts might lead to different conclusions. I see different facts sprouting up in the discussion, though I don’t see that they make any difference.

    There is no valid charge for theft if you dump something in another person’s property and that person denies you permission to retrieve it. The legal recourse is to sue for conversion and have the sheriff retrieve the property.

    Were I in the position of Jester, I would be pretty dismayed if hurled footballs kept landing near me. Impacts that a 40 year old man can shrug off can seriously injure the elderly.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  74. One more thing. Footballs hitting a 40 year old man can be shrugged off. That is not true of an 88 year old lady, as a thrown football could easily cause her to keel over. From the AP, December 31, 2008:

    “Falls are some of the most preventable injuries, but they routinely lead to the death of hundreds of elderly residents. Now Massachusetts health officials say they are making a new push to help prevent falls. In 2006 alone, 340 Massachusetts residents age 65 and older died after falls. Another 20,000 needed hospital stays, and 37,000 required emergency room visits. Hospital charges for fall-related visits in the state were almost $500 million in 2006.”

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  75. The mother of five is approaching toxic neighbor status, in my opinion. My Mom may have had problems keeping her five kids in perfect control, but such things did not happen to our toys. If we “lost” them in such a fashion, we went and begged for permission to get them, or to have them returned, and if we failed, we were not given replacements.

    There’s a part of me that says the solution is to start bombarding toxic mom’s lawn with things, and demanding that they be returned. But that would be expensive, and I think she’s too dim to understand.

    htom (412a17)

  76. The video at the link

    http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story/88-Year-Old-Woman-Arrested-For-Taking-A-Ball/aA3yB4IBF0ycBGb1B6hVIA.cspx

    Shows normal older homes with basements and not a mobile park. The houses and yards are small, but grassed. Now a family of 7, in what is probably at best a rather small 3-2 home, is going to create a lot of problems for the family. Where do they all sleep, the attic?

    It shouldn’t be the neighbors’s problem these parents have put their extra large family in a suitcase house and want to use everyone else’s property for their kiddy runoff. Hint, move out to the country.

    Ray (8cfb7a)

  77. I think Ray is correct. My error. I lived in a mobile home park for several years in California and they looked so much like that I did not look closely enough. I have never seen homes like these.

    Sorry, and thank you Ray.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  78. Just call me Buffoon.

    Machinist (c5fc28)

  79. i’m THRILLED that Edna Jester has sued those negligent parents. and oh whaaaa now they don’t have money for a lawyer? did they imagine Ms. Jester had money for whatever heinous expenses she might incur as a result of their involving the police.

    not to mention: she’s elderly. imagine if she tripped and fell over some toy one of the kids left lying around? let’s talk about expense then.

    i hope those parents get their azzes handed to them on a pitchfork.

    Asrai (f00d76)

  80. I thought possession was 90% of the law. If they leave things on her property, doesn’t that prove negligence and abandonment? Seems like Edna might have an argument against the local authorities, as well as the neighbors.

    Apogee (fd4142)

  81. People call the police for informal mediation a lot. Sometimes it works (ala “Adam 12”) and sometime not.

    A few years ago we had a similar situation: kids balls into neighbor’s yard. In that incident, the neighbor was the one to continually call the police and turn the offending ball over to the police. The “dear darlings'” parents finally trained the kids to stop the action as the parents got tired and embarrassed about having the police constantly on their front porch. I believe the officers got less P.R. oriented toward the parents after each contact.

    I worked for a small town and find it difficult to believe that an 88 yr old woman would have been arrested (at least in our community). If it had been felt that she had broken the law, a complaint would have been forwarded to the D.A.’s office for review and then let the court issue a court for her to show up at the court.

    Old folks can be fragile and no one wants to do the paperwork and have bad publicity and possible liability if the senior “goes down with the big one” due to the stress of being arrested. So long as they aren’t an active danger to the community, the extra few days won’t make much difference.

    Roy in Nipomo (1023a0)

  82. Roy in Nipomo–Over the holidays some friends were talking about Jockos (sp?) steakhouse in Nipomo and said it was by far the best steak place on the planet. They were really hyping the place. Any truth to it all?

    Sorry for being so obviously off topic, but I have to know.

    PC14 (82e46c)

  83. #80

    Yes as to negligence, no as to abandonment. Basically, if you toss a ball (or you fail to supervise your kids in so doing) and it goes into a neighbor’s yard and goes injury, the tosser is liable for the damage (in the real world Dennis the Menace’s parents would be shelling out for a lot of broken windows).

    But the ball is not abandoned. It’s just where it should not be.

    #79

    Yeah, the neighbors are risking a very nasty slip and fall lawsuit.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  84. But the ball is still a nuisance and a trespass and can be “abated” into the nearest trashcan, or as the property owner may otherwise please. There is no duty to be an involuntary bailee.

    nk (d08690)

  85. I am telling my kids not to go into the neighbor’s yards. Even their front yards. If the kids (and their friends) are in the driveway and drift over into the neighbor’s yard, I’m out there telling them it’s not our yard, get back in our yard.

    On the other hand, we’ve had to call the police on those same neighbors for loud parties and music in their garage which is behind their house and close to our bedrooms. When we ask them to quiet it down they pretend they can’t speak or understand English…

    We had asked about the noise ordinance and the police told us that no matter what time of day it was, if we could hear them in our yard or house, it was too loud.

    kimsch (2ce939)

  86. OT – PC14

    I haven’t eaten at enough steak houses to say it is “the best on the planet,” but I haven’t found any that I like better. Atmosphere is “rustic,” but the food is excellent.

    [Disclaimer: I have no financial or familial affiliation with Jocko’s Restaurant’s owners or employees.]

    Roy in Nipomo (1023a0)

  87. In a village where one lawyer would starve, two lawyers will prosper.

    Alta Bob (33a0bd)

  88. Comment by Alta Bob — 1/3/2009 @ 8:54 am

    No better reason for a limit on business licenses to lawyers than that – one per city/town.

    AD (ad74e9)

  89. Thanks Roy. I think one of my friends has actually eaten in every steak house on the planet…or so it seems.

    PC14 (82e46c)

  90. Kaus channeling Patterico ? …

    1) Immigrants are leaving Southern California. 2) Crime is falling in Southern California (contrary to criminologists’ ‘hard-times=crime’ predictions).

    Is there a connection? I don’t know. But don’t expect the Los Angeles Times to even ask.

    Neo (cba5df)

  91. Why do I get the feeling that most of the posters on this topic are into their golden years?

    I imagine most of you would agree in general that we’ve become a society of the perpetually offended, and in which too many people rush to get the better of their supposed adversaries instead of trying to compromise or come to some understanding.

    I’m sorry, but a football lying in someone else’s yard doesn’t constitute much of a nuisance imo, especially compared to some of the nuisances I’ve witnessed around neighborhoods over the years – dogs that bark all night, teens and young adults revving their muffler-less engines and peeling out at all hours, stray cats and other pets roaming free. I’d take a couple of kids playing catch over those things anyday. I’ve had toys left in my yard, or balls accidentally kicked into a fenced area out back and not retrieved. It didn’t exactly kill me to quietly toss the balls back over the fence, or move the toys back onto the neighbor’s property.

    One neighbor years ago had a couple of dogs that continually escaped from her back yard and left steamy deposits in mine. One of the dogs eventually became so infested with ticks that his ears became blood red and one eye was swollen shut. Several of us had called animal control, but the dogs were never in view when they canvassed the neighborhood. After seeing what kind of condition the dogs were in, I personally drove to the city offices and the police station and left out no details on what was going on. Fortunately the dogs were captured that afternoon (and, regrettably, were probably put down).

    Here we have a kid who earns enough money to buy himself a football – I assume he doesn’t run a meth lab or conduct any activities that should have his neighbors really worried. His home, like the others in his neighborhood, offers very little room in the yard for outdoor activities. If there isn’t a recreational area nearby, or if his parents fear that it wouldn’t be safe for him to be far from home, what options does he have?

    My impression after reading the news accounts and seeing the video is that Ms. Jester is a cranky old woman who may also be a few cards short of a full deck. And 50 years ago she was probably a cranky young woman. I may be jumping to conclusions and passing judgment, but so is everyone else who assumes that the fault lies with irresponsible parents and/or kids.

    Dagwood (ba2462)

  92. She ought to sue the crap out of the cops and the neighbors. The cops for being stupid in arresting her and the neighbors for incessant assholeness.

    If this was the first time an incident occurred I would agree with those who side with the parents. However after numerous complaints, the parents excuse is long past its sell date. Besides if the kids yard is too small to play in,they should go to a park. Like normal civilized people.

    cubanbob (409ac2)

  93. Why do I get the feeling that most of the posters on this topic are into their golden years?

    You haven’t heard? Those were canceled…

    rhodeymark (4f2403)


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