Patterico's Pontifications

12/29/2008

Playing Politics

Filed under: Politics — DRJ @ 9:22 pm

[Guest post by DRJ]

In an article about the Bush Administration after Hurricane Katrina, a Colin Powell associate demonstrates the Obama-Biden tactic of likening Republicans to George Bush:

Lawrence Wilkerson, top aide and later chief of staff to former Secretary of State Colin Powell, said that as a new president, Bush was like Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, the 2008 GOP vice presidential nominee whom critics said lacked knowledge about foreign affairs. When Bush first came into office, he was surrounded by experienced advisers like Vice President Dick Cheney and Powell, who Wilkerson said ended up playing damage control for the president.

“It allowed everybody to believe that this Sarah Palin-like president – because, let’s face it, that’s what he was – was going to be protected by this national-security elite, tested in the cauldrons of fire,” Wilkerson said, adding that he considered Cheney probably the “most astute, bureaucratic entrepreneur” he’d ever met.”

They really are afraid of Palin, aren’t they? Of course, this could also be part of proving fidelity to the new guard in Washington or a heartfelt statement of contempt for Bush and Palin. Whatever the motive, it’s classic Washington politics and members of both parties do it.

But it’s interesting to notice how often the fingerprints of Powell’s associates appear on efforts that hurt the GOP. Plame, anyone?

– DRJ

403 Responses to “Playing Politics”

  1. Wilkerson is a worthless piece of shit.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  2. Coming from the type who’s willing to French kiss the joker that is going to be this nation’s upcoming president (ugh), I don’t think Wilkerson has much credibility.

    Mark (411533)

  3. Nice post, DRJ (and nicer to get away from some of the unpleasantness on other threads). I think that the battle between the Country Club Republicans and the more populist branch of the Republican Party is underway. This is just a continuing set of symptoms, I think.

    What Colin Powell and his friends don’t get is that:

    1. There is little difference between a CCR and a moderate Democrat (many posters here found no difference between them). So voters will be underwhelmed. The CCRs don’t seem to understand that.

    2. The future of both the Republican and Democratic parties must be away from the Washington elite that has served this country so poorly (and that is a truly nonpartisan statement).

    This is why Sarah Palin frightens them so. And with good reason.

    But no worries. Article after article by MSM pundits and Washington elites all insist that Governor Palin is stupid. So it must be true. We all need to listen to them, since they know better than we do, right?

    Except many people don’t accept that now. They see the hypocrisy and the elitism.

    Let the battle begin!

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  4. Wilkerson was undermining the Bush Administration even before he left the State Department. He has absolutely no credibility in my eyes.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  5. He admitted in one of those ‘quagmire in Iraq’ books that he believed there were WMDs in Iraq.The whole world from MI-6 to the DGSE to the Arab Mukharabat’s agreed on that judgement. How does that compare with thinking the surge wouldn’t work, or thought that ‘understanding the terrorists motivation, not actually fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq was the first step to defeating them.
    When picking a running mate (who did that by the way; oh the current atty general candidate and the NY State Senate designate)that though partition that worked so well in India, Ireland, Cyprus et al would work well in Iraq. Or who voted againstthe Alaska pipeline, who opposed the Contras, was against the first Gulf War; you’d question that candidate’s judgement. Hint neither Sarah nor John believed this; in fact an overhead Time editor’s meeting talked about supporters of the Gulf War as “Brownshirts and Nazis” Lets forget the historical gaffes like Roosevelt on TV in ’29 or consensual hallucinations like “Katie’s Diner” Real solid judgement all around.

    narciso (57971e)

  6. Wilkerson will end up in a sinecure at some place such as Brookings, or the Kennedy School at Harvard, looking down his patrician nose at those who decline to follow his prescription on how to deal with the world – and we will be the better for it.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (209453)

  7. AD, I really do think that the divide has been about a New Aristocracy. The New Aristocrats seem to all be the same, from the same schools, and don’t have large differences in their political leanings (despite the D versus R business).

    This is why folks like Sarah Palin are reviled, but Joe Biden is given a pass. Why we are still seeing amazingly hypocritical articles defending Caroline Kennedy (though there are cracks in that facade growing).

    I think real change is coming, and it isn’t from the likes of Barack Obama.

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  8. The coming hard times will winnow out the weak from the strong…Mr. Wilkerson does not strike me as one of the strong ones.

    CK is toast….the mocking about her vocabulary (you know) will drive her back onto Central Park-West.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (209453)

  9. Wilkerson and Powell should be thrown out of the Republican party.

    Perfect Sense (9d1b08)

  10. Well,you know,uh,…you know that Bush had no where near the experience of Mr. 57 states and failed community organizer Obama.
    That world tour made all the difference with countries like Germany and Britain putting more boots on the ground in the War on Terror after their Messiah asked them to.
    What…you mean they didn’t do what Obama asked.
    So much for “hope and change”.

    But the Europeans opinions of us matter so much to the democratic party that maybe super smart talking heads like Wilkerson should listen to what
    this European has to say about Bush:

    George W Bush: winning the war on terror
    Europe’s political elites are no doubt salivating at the prospect of George W. Bush departing the White House in January.

    By Nile Gardiner
    Last Updated: 6:23PM GMT 26 Dec 2008
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3965454/George-W-Bush-winning-the-war-on-terror.html#postComment

    Much of the condemnation of his policies though is driven by a venomous hatred of Bush’s personality and leadership style, rather than an objective assessment of his achievements. Ten or twenty years from now, historians will view Bush’s actions on the world stage in a more favourable light. America’s 43rd president did after all directly liberate more people (over 60 million) from tyranny than any leader since Winston Churchill and Franklin D. Roosevelt.

    If this is considered failure to talking heads like Wilkerson,the bar is set pretty high for Obama and voting “present” most of the time is not going to get a whole lot done.

    Are We Safer?
    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/05/020600.php

    Empirically, however, it seems beyond dispute that something has made us safer since 2001. Over the course of the Bush administration, successful attacks on the United States and its interests overseas have dwindled to virtually nothing.

    1988
    February: Marine Corps Lt. Colonel Higgens, Chief of the U.N. Truce Force, was kidnapped and murdered by Hezbollah.

    December: Pan Am flight 103 from London to New York was blown up over Scotland, killing 270 people, including 35 from Syracuse University and a number of American military personnel.

    1991
    November: American University in Beirut bombed.

    1993
    January: A Pakistani terrorist opened fire outside CIA headquarters, killing two agents and wounding three.

    February: World Trade Center bombed, killing six and injuring more than 1,000.
    1995

    January: Operation Bojinka, Osama bin Laden’s plan to blow up 12 airliners over the Pacific Ocean, discovered.

    November: Five Americans killed in attack on a U.S. Army office in Saudi Arabia.

    1996

    June: Truck bomb at Khobar Towers kills 19 American servicemen and injures 240.

    June: Terrorist opens fire at top of Empire State Building, killing one.

    1997
    February: Palestinian opens fire at top of Empire State Building, killing one and wounding more than a dozen.

    November: Terrorists murder four American oil company employees in Pakistan.

    1998
    January: U.S. Embassy in Peru bombed.

    August: Simultaneous bomb attacks on U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania killed more than 300 people and injured over 5,000.

    1999
    October: Egypt Air flight 990 crashed off the coast of Massachusetts, killing 100 Americans among the more than 200 on board; the pilot yelled “Allahu Akbar!” as he steered the airplane into the ocean.

    2000
    October: A suicide boat exploded next to the U.S.S. Cole, killing 17 American sailors and injuring 39.

    2001
    September: Terrorists with four hijacked airplanes kill around 3,000 Americans in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania.

    December: Richard Reid, the “shoe bomber,” tries to blow up a transatlantic flight, but is stopped by passengers.

    The September 11 attack was a propaganda triumph for al Qaeda, celebrated by a dismaying number of Muslims around the world. Everyone expected that it would draw more Muslims to bin Laden’s cause and that more such attacks would follow. In fact, though, what happened was quite different: the pace of successful jihadist attacks against the United States slowed, decelerated further after the onset of the Iraq war, and has now dwindled to essentially zero. Here is the record:

    2002
    October: Diplomat Laurence Foley murdered in Jordan, in an operation planned, directed and financed by Zarqawi in Iraq, perhaps with the complicity of Saddam’s government.

    2003

    May: Suicide bombers killed 10 Americans, and killed and wounded many others, at housing compounds for westerners in Saudi Arabia.

    October: More bombings of United States housing compounds in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killed 26 and injured 160.

    2004
    There were no successful attacks inside the United States or against American interests abroad.

    2005
    There were no successful attacks inside the United States or against American interests abroad.

    2006
    There were no successful attacks inside the United States or against American interests abroad.

    2007
    There were no successful attacks inside the United States or against American interests abroad.

    2008
    So far, there have been no successful attacks inside the United States or against American interests abroad.

    Pretty good for ““It allowed everybody to believe that this Sarah Palin-like president – because, let’s face it, that’s what he was “President Bush.

    And 50,000,000 free in Iraq/Afghanistan to go along with this.

    Dam#,if only,you know,Bush could have…uh…well..you know…uh…been as smart as a Kennedy,he could have had the record of ..uh..well..you know…uh..you know..appeasement and failure against international terrorism like Clinton had.

    Baxter Greene (8035ae)

  11. They really are afraid of Palin, aren’t they? Hardly. Grandma Palin was defused nicely by her own words… and Tina Fey. It’s the ignorant masses who cling to creationism and the like that lace the base of conservativism which raises alarm. The past 30 years of conservativism has championed ignorance over intellect, celebrated criminality over compentence and hailed the achievements of NASCAR over NASA.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  12. Dear daleyrocks:

    that’s an insult to the worthless pieces of shit i know….

    as for Powe,ll(his military service notwithstanding), Willkerson, and all the other RINO’s, there’s a place for you in the upcoming live ensemble adaptation of “The Aristocrats”, which will be the perfect showcase for your previously undervalued talents.

    redc1c4 (27fd3e)

  13. No one at NASCAR is hiding global warming data from peer review and mistaking September data for October. I’ll take NASCAR.

    Adriane (497622)

  14. 13- You can have it.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  15. []

    My good friends on the Delaware Liberal are running an end of the year contest which includes Common Sense Political Thought for Blog of the Year! So head on over, and vote!

    Patterico gets like twenty times the visitors of Delaware Liberal, so with a little support here, I could overwhelm our friends on the left! :)

    []

    The Dana desperately seeking votes (3e4784)

  16. “It allowed everybody to believe that this Sarah Palin-like president – because, let’s face it, that’s what he was – was going to be protected by this national-security elite, tested in the cauldrons of fire,” Wilkerson said,

    Oh, someone’s trying to get an ambassador assignment…

    adding that he considered Cheney probably the “most astute, bureaucratic entrepreneur” he’d ever met.”

    And that just cost him that diplomatic immunity…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  17. The prospect of a Palin presidency is truly frightful, not just to people like Wilkerson. Charles Fried, solicitor general for saint Reagan and McCain adviser, quit the campaign and voted for Obama because of “the choice of Sarah Palin at a time of deep national crisis.” Its so frightful that its not really worth the humor value of a repeat.

    imdw (4dbc86)

  18. The past 30 years of conservativism has championed ignorance over intellect, celebrated criminality over compentence and hailed the achievements of NASCAR over NASA.

    Indeed it has, and I give unto thee over 9,000 date points left out of the basic AGW math, because they didn’t fit the theory (btw, that isn’t how it’s supposed to be done).

    I give unto thee AlGore using old Ice Core sample data – and leaving out the 2003 core-sample data – for speeches because the 2003 data absolutely contradicts the idea of atmospheric carbon as causing global warming (the new, more accurate data shows a lag of many hundreds of years, with carbon levels following AFTER warming trends).

    I give to you downward-trending global temps since 2001.

    I give you increased polar ice (which is counter to the fiction the AGW crowd states).

    Indeed, Ignorance has been substituted for Intellect… I’m afraid thought that you are projecting just a smidgen.

    Not that I’m at all surprised by that. You just keep praying that even though you haven’t seen it yet, you’ll eventually see true progressive steps taken by Barack “The Magic Negro” Obama.

    We’ll be here for you when reality dashes those Hopes, and you Change your tune.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  19. Charles Fried

    Any man who considers Justice Scalia to be a radical conservative is not someone upon which you should pin the hopes and dreams of the Republican party on, nor is he indictative of the majority of the country.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  20. “Any man who considers Justice Scalia to be a radical conservative is not someone upon which you should pin the hopes and dreams of the Republican party on, nor is he indictative of the majority of the country.”

    He was Reagan’s solicitor general. That pins enough on him. But I’d love to hear more about his views on Scalia.

    imdw (803b85)

  21. “Any man who considers Justice Scalia to be a radical conservative is not someone upon which you should pin the hopes and dreams of the Republican party on, nor is he indictative of the majority of the country.”

    He’s Reagan’s solicitor general. Pin that on him — Maybe he didn’t like Palin’s view on the right to privacy. But I’d like to hear more of his views on Scalia.

    imdw (7c85b9)

  22. DCSCA,

    Trying to prove your credentials to the Illiterate Elites?

    PCD (7fe637)

  23. It’s the ignorant masses who cling to creationism and the like that lace the base of conservativism which raises alarm. The past 30 years of conservativism has championed ignorance over intellect, celebrated criminality over compentence and hailed the achievements of NASCAR over NASA.

    Comment by DCSCA

    I’m sure you are familiar with Al Gore’s and John Kerry’s grades in college and Gore’s record in the several universities (granted not six) where he attempted to complete a course.

    It always amuses me when lefties proclaim their intellectual superiority but nominate dunces, like Caroline Kennedy, I fear, as candidates. It is all about style. The substance is a bit weak. The last time we had such an intellectual bunch running the country, we had 25% unemployment for eight years. Read about Roosevelt’s “Brain Trust.” They had no idea how to govern. In their defense, I will say that they were breaking new ground and, as a result of Hoover’s policies, the public was desperate.

    Sarah Palin has an unusual background for a politician and only in Alaska could someone like that prosper in politics. Almost all politicians I am familiar with, and I served for years on the legislative commission of the California Medical Association, begin as staff members for other politicians. Read the biographies. Very few have real world experience and those are almost all Republicans. The Senate is full of rich men, and a few women whose husbands made the money, but real entrepreneurs and those whose accomplishments could benefit the country if they were in the Senate, are rare.

    The conservatives in Congress are the ones with real world experience. Intellectual lightweights talk about the idiots who believe in creationism but I would love to see them explain genetics or molecular biology. What they know, they read in Time Magazine. Most of the CW about Sarah Palin either came from the Tina Fey parodies or from the lies told by the Democrats.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  24. Here’s one of those intellectual Democrats in the news.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  25. 15 and just what are we supposed to know about the site and their obscure references in the polls? Never heard of most of it. Nice that they do have the CW wisdom in the one question about various Palin family names. That alone tells me they can all do the physically impossible to themselves.

    aoibhneas (0c6cfc)

  26. Here’s one of those intellectual Democrats in the news.

    I don’t even have to read it to start laughing…

    Cynthia “Don’t you know who I am??” McKinney?? On Gaza?

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  27. 23 I like the picture of the dipwad Cynthia shown over at littlegreenfootballs. What does it say about the voters of her district that they ever elected this terrorist loving POS? Of course apparently the voters of Minn. are not much better if Stuart Smiley gets into the Senate.

    Pity the Israeli navy didn’t just sink the boatload of crapweasels.

    aoibhneas (0c6cfc)

  28. Pity the Israeli navy didn’t just sink the boatload of crapweasels.

    Do you have any idea what to would have cost in terms or ordinance? Cheaper to let them land. :)

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  29. “Wilkerson and Powell should be thrown out of the Republican party.”

    That would work if they were Republicans. They aren’t, they are and have always been opportunists, Powell in particular. Powell has trashed my 1990′s trust in him. Boy, was I wrong on that.

    GM Roper (85dcd7)

  30. Comment by The Dana desperately seeking votes — 4:40 am

    Ah voted and yes it feels good just like I knew it would……

    Blog of the Year

    Tommywonk 710% of all votes
    Delaware Liberal 3958% of all votes
    Delaware Watch 11% of all votes
    Kavips 69% of all votes
    Delaware Talk Radio (includes all subs) 57% of all votes
    Delaware Libertarian 23% of all votes
    X Common Sense Political Thought 710% of all votes
    Total Votes: 67

    Started: December 29, 2008

    Vermont Neighbor (ceab4f)

  31. They really are afraid of Palin, aren’t they?

    Yes they are, and they were just as afraid of G.W……… and guess what we were right.

    Oiram (983921)

  32. and guess what we were right.

    Uh huh. Those lack of attacks on any significant US interest globally since 2002 is the worst thing that’s ever happened…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  33. “Lack of attacks”???

    What about the attack on our economy? Not by our enemies but by our president and his cronies going after the wrong enemy.

    But yeah, the fact that we haven’t been attacked (your sense of the word) is the only thing that has kept Bush from being impeached.

    Would Bush still be president if God forbid we had been attacked by terrorists here? Even a small theater bombing would insure his impeachment.

    Thank God Bush is still our president (I mean that).

    Oiram (983921)

  34. What about the attack on our economy? Not by our enemies but by our president and his cronies going after the wrong enemy.

    Perfect and thank you for calling PE-Barry out on his massive Fannie-Freddie crap.

    Vermont Neighbor (ceab4f)

  35. What about the attack on our economy?

    What about the attack on Joe the Plumber?

    Pablo (99243e)

  36. “Joe The Plumber”…………………

    LOL

    Oiram (983921)

  37. They really are afraid of Palin, aren’t they?

    I don’t think they are afraid. Palin’s most legitimate claim was more executive experience than the other candidates. She can’t make that claim in 2012. I think the Dems see her as an easily beatable candidate in a reelection bid and would like nothing better than for the GOP base to “annoint” her as the nominee this early.

    voiceofreason2 (590c85)

  38. So, when a Presidential candidate appoints a VP with experience in foreign policy and recruits “experienced advisers” — like oh, say, Joe Biden, Robert Gates and Hillary Clinton as “damage control” they are acting just like George Bush, huh? Odd, then that they focus so much on Palin, when the analogy seems to hold so much better for Obama.

    Sean P (e57269)

  39. The next Repub. candidate that runs and gets an endorsement from on of these clowns, they need to say thanks, but, no thanks….

    slizzle (4c3b4d)

  40. #36 voice,

    Like every good American should, I hope Obama does a splendid job the next 4 years and 8 years. But in the event that he doesn’t, I would hope that Republicans would have the common sense to elect someone other than Mrs. Palin.

    A bad Obama presidency, and a lot of Republican spin could get Palin elected in a heartbeat………… that’s what scares me.

    Oiram (983921)

  41. Oiram, you blithering dolt, the meltdown occurred because Democratic Party stalwarts like Barney Frank and Maxine Waters vociferously wet their pants in public every time someone like McCain or Bush tried to fix the credit crisis before it went critical.

    Whoops, almost forgot Chris “I’m in bed with the loan industry, and was really, really surprised to get special treatment” Dodd.

    The Democrats shoved CRA down the collective throat of this country, and probably were dumb enough to be surprised when things went Wahooni-shaped. It’s no surprise they’re trying to tag Bush, but it is a surprise when people who can read without moving their lips believe them.

    Casey (9ee427)

  42. OK, now just why would Governor Palin be such a bad president? THe woman has business experience, executive experience, and she has common sense. I don’t see those as bad things at all.

    Now, it’s true that she doesn’t fit in well with the wine-and-brie set, the ones who are just so persuaded of their innate superiority and Fitness To Rule, but that’s another good thing.

    I’d much prefer Mrs Palin to Barack Obama. My guess is that, in about two years from now, a whole lot more people will be seeing it my way.

    The Republican Dana (3e4784)

  43. Oiram wrote:

    A bad Obama presidency, and a lot of Republican spin could get Palin elected in a heartbeat………… that’s what scares me.

    OK, why? What is it that you believe Sarah Palin would do as president that scares you so? One assumes, after all, that you had a reason to write what you wrote, so please, be specific.

    The inquisitive Dana (3e4784)

  44. Dana, didn’t you get the memo? Only smart people who go to the correct schools are good enough to rule us. And I do intend the word “rule.”

    This is why the Elitocrats fear Sarah Palin. She isn’t a member of the “Club.”

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  45. They really are afraid of Palin, aren’t they?

    – Turning her name into an adjective is a sure sign of panic.

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  46. Do me a huge favor Dana, hold on to those Palin thoughts if Obama does well in the next 4 years……please.

    Oiram (983921)

  47. It’s the ignorant masses who cling to creationism and the like that lace the base of conservativism which raises alarm. The past 30 years of conservativism has championed ignorance over intellect, celebrated criminality over compentence and hailed the achievements of NASCAR over NASA.

    – That’s quite a string of stereotyped non sequiturs serving as an ad hominem attack. Do you have a version that substitutes “socialism” for “creationism” and “liberalism” for “conservatism”?

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  48. Icy, this is the part that irritates me so much. The vast majority of Leftists who carry on about religion and evolution know very little about either.

    And they LOVE to misrepresent what their political opponents say on the subject, while giving a complete pass to nonsense stated by the politicians they adore.

    I also enjoyed the ironic placement (alliteration without attention to spelling) of:

    “…championed ignorance over intellect, celebrated criminality over compentence and hailed the achievements of NASCAR over NASA….”

    The celebration of criminality is the provence of the Republican party right now? And competence a characteristic of the Reid and Pelosi organization?

    And do we REALLY want IQ tests for congresscritters? Or current events quizzes? It wouldn’t work out the way the poster posits.

    But the “NASCAR versus NASA” line was the single best example of how the Elitocrats think these days. They know very little about either organization, but know how they feel about them…and that they are better than the former and understand the latter.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  49. Nice post. You make some good points.

    A.D. (aa2ed9)

  50. But yeah, the fact that we haven’t been attacked (your sense of the word)

    The accurate sense, yes.

    Would Bush still be president if God forbid we had been attacked by terrorists here? Even a small theater bombing would insure his impeachment.

    Try not to sound so wistful.

    Jim Treacher (592cb4)

  51. Let’s talk about the “achievements of NASCAR over NASA” that DCSCA mentions. Now I don’t happen to give a flying flip about NASCAR–never touch the stuff myself as it were.

    But NASA’s record in the last 30 years (the time period that DCSCA selects) hasn’t been anything to write home about. Challenger blew up in ’86 as it lifted off the launch pad. Bureacratic engineering sent 10 or 11 people to their deaths. Then another shuttle burned itself up on reentry from orbit. NASA’s successes–and they do have some–are largely as a result of engineering and projects begun or done during the Johnson and (gulp!) Nixon years. Since about 1980 (i.e. DCSCA’s “last 30 years”) they’ve been flying an old space truck, using 1960′s technology and computers–and killing people.

    That’s not necessarily all NASA’s fault–Congress and the American people haven’t been willing to fund them to the extent that NASA might want–but the truth is, it’s a pretty sad program now.

    Mike Myers (31af82)

  52. Like every good American should, I hope Obama does a splendid job the next 4 years and 8 years.

    Apparently Oiram has never heard of term limits…

    Jim Treacher (592cb4)

  53. Mike, I can promise you that this DC-whatever could not tell you, if asked in person, to tell you what the letters in “NASA” and “NASCAR” stand for. Oh, it can look it up, sure.

    But you and I both know that the post was all about sounding twee and faux-intellectual. Feelings, not facts.

    And did I mention snobbily elitist?

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  54. Apparently Oiram has never heard of term limits…

    Huh?

    You realize that Obama would, if re-elected, serve 8 years as PotUS, right?

    The person we should wonder about knowing term limits and the length of a President’s term of office is YOU, bucko…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  55. Try not to sound so wistful.

    Comment by Jim Treacher — 12/30/2008 @ 11:05 am

    Yeah, when you put it that way.

    Hey Jim, you conveniently forgot to cut and paste the last thing I wrote on the comment you were referring too.

    Read again please, and let’s see how do I underline “I mean that” here? Anyways underline it in your head.

    #32 Would Bush still be president if God forbid we had been attacked by terrorists here? Even a small theater bombing would insure his impeachment.

    Thank God Bush is still our president (I mean that).

    Comment by Oiram — 12/30/2008 @ 10:02 am

    Oiram (983921)

  56. #53 Hey Scott, what gives you the impression I don’t know about Presidential term limits?

    It’s 10 years by the way.

    Oiram (983921)

  57. Hey Jim, you conveniently forgot to cut and paste the last thing I wrote on the comment you were referring too.

    Read again please, and let’s see how do I underline “I mean that” here? Anyways underline it in your head.

    If you could try to make even less sense, that would be great.

    Jim Treacher (592cb4)

  58. You realize that Obama would, if re-elected, serve 8 years as PotUS, right?

    Oiram said “the next 4 years and 8 years.” It was a joke. But please don’t try to relax if you don’t want to.

    Jim Treacher (592cb4)

  59. See, because 4 + 8 = 12. I apologize for upsetting you, Scott.

    Jim Treacher (592cb4)

  60. #56 Jim please make fun of me all you like here (I’m used to it).

    But don’t ever think that I wanted America to be attacked by terrorists to prove Bush was a bad president…..ever.

    Oiram (983921)

  61. #53 Hey Scott, what gives you the impression I don’t know about Presidential term limits?

    It’s 10 years by the way.

    First off, I was freaking DEFENDING you.

    And it’s not 10, but <10, and only if they were the VP, and only if it was for less than half of the former president’s term.

    You can finish out 1 year and 364 days, and THEN get elected to the seat and re-elected, but once you hit 2 years plus, it’s out.

    But you said 4 or 8, which would be Obama’s 1st, and assuming he gets re-elected, 2nd term. Since he can’t touch that extra time, since he’s not going to be VP.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  62. I love it when you guys correct me grammatically (means you’ve got nothing)

    I know Obama could serve for 10 years only.

    Oiram (983921)

  63. (means you’ve got nothing)

    It was not a gramatical correction, but a very valid correction at to the way things actually are.

    And this is the second time I’ve regretted sticking up for you. You really are a winner, you know that?

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  64. Thanks for defending me Scott (sorry I missed it, not used to it)

    Oiram (983921)

  65. Second time? Sorry I missed that one too.

    Oiram (983921)

  66. See, “the next 4 years or 8 years” would be how you’d say it. “The next 4 years and 8 years” equals 12 years. Once again, I apologize for my little joke.

    Jim please make fun of me all you like here

    Fine idea.

    Jim Treacher (592cb4)

  67. #53 I’m taking you on your word Scott that you were defending me. Hard to see that when I re-read #53.

    The person we should wonder about knowing term limits and the length of a President’s term of office is YOU, bucko…

    Comment by Scott Jacobs — 12/30/2008 @ 11:16 am

    Oiram (983921)

  68. Hard to see that when I re-read #53.

    COnsidering I quoted JIM, I would have thought it to be fairly obvious…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  69. Thanks Scott, got it now. Owe you one.

    Oiram (983921)

  70. I guess I don’t get an apology.

    Jim Treacher (592cb4)

  71. Do me a huge favor Dana, hold on to those Palin thoughts if Obama does well in the next 4 years……please.

    Comment by Oiram

    I hope he does well and he seems so far to be more sensible in his appointments than I feared. His science advisor is no surprise and may herald a list of bad appointments in the second tier. He has had a lot of looney advisors. If he takes their advice, he will not have a good presidency.

    Personally, I think there is one chance in three that he will do as well as BUsh, and I don’t consider Bush to have been a top flight president.

    Mike K (f89cb3)

  72. #1

    It’s nice to see how anonymous lowlifes like daleyrocks treat America’s heroes.

    Lawrence Wilkerson volunteered to go to Vietnam. He graduated from Army Ranger school and logged 1,100 combat hours piloting a recon chopper on the frontlines. He rose to the level of colonel in the Army and served multiple posts with distinction, including staff positions within the Reagan administration, and he taught at the Naval War College. He is, by every measure, the model of an American soldier.

    Who is daleyrocks? An anonymous asshole, who calls a distinguished soldier who risked his life for this country “a worthless piece of shit”.

    The fact that the commentators on this board tolerate and cheer on un-American lowlifes like daleyrocks, whose only qualification is his persistent dishonesty and loathsome hatred of anyone who has accomplished anything in their lives, is astonishing.

    Wilkerson put his life on the line for this country. Punks like daleyrocks can’t even put their name to their lies.

    Whether you agree with Wilkerson’s views or not, as a soldier with frontline experience and stints within 3 Republican administrations and the Naval War College, his views have more authority than the whining of any of the anonymous cowards on this site. He earned his credibility from getting shot at. Any of his anonymous critics willing to disclose their names and where they served?

    Wilkerson is a hero who dedicated and risked his life for his country. The “worthless piece of shit” is daleyrocks and the other putrid sock puppets who would wet their pants if they ever had to meet a man like him in person.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  73. Wilkerson defended by Sanai…
    SHOCKA!

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  74. Cyrus,

    Benedict Arnold had a distinguished military career also. But thanks for playing the Absolute Moral Authority Card. Impressive.

    Karl (f07e38)

  75. Sanai, daleyrocks got it right. Wilkerson was wrong to describe GWB as Palin-like, it’s an asinine thing to say, and so is your silly ad hominem attack.

    I can respect Wilkerson’s military service and give him all the praise he deserves for it, but when he makes a fool of himself in the political arena he gets what he deserves there too.

    Ropelight (d40bc3)

  76. Cyrus, just because a person was a successful soldier with a long career does not mean that he should be taken seriously as a political power. (I seem to remember that as one of the themes from the Democrats this past election cycle.)

    This particular person has shown repeatedly that loyalty to the people he works for is not a high priority. His attempts to undermine the sitting president while at the State Department show that he didn’t understand the responsibilities and requirements of the office he was occupying. State is supposed to implement the foreign policy of the U.S. government. It was not his position to try and move the policy of the U.S. in opposition to the direction set by GWB.

    I have worked with a number of people who made good sailors but have had a difficult time figuring out where they fit in after leaving the service. This man seems to have gotten the idea that he is much more intelligent, important and influential than he really is. Aren’t delusions wonderful?

    In answer to your challenge, I served 8 years in the USN from 83 to 91. I was a Second Class Petty Officer, E5 enlisted when I got out to get married. I use my real name as my handle here so no use calling Anonymous poster. If you feel that I am still hiding behind a keyboard, please contact Patterico for my email address.

    Jay Curtis (8f6541)

  77. I’m in second place so far (18.42%) but there have been only 76 votes so far; a surge of Patterico voters could sway the whole thing for a conservative blog on a liberal site! :)

    The Dana who's desperate for votes! (3e4784)

  78. I response to my question (42) to Oiram, asking him why he’s so afraid of Sarah Palin as president, Oiram replied (45):

    Do me a huge favor Dana, hold on to those Palin thoughts if Obama does well in the next 4 years……please.

    But that isn’t an answer at all. He had said that the prospect of Mrs Palin as president “scares (him)” (39), but when challenged to tell us what about it would scare him, he has no answer.

    Oiram, unless it’s just demagoguery, surely you have some reasons why a Palin presidency would scare you. What is it you believe that she would do, as president, which frightens you so?

    The inquisitive and persistant Dana (3e4784)

  79. Oiram wrote:

    Do me a huge favor Dana, hold on to those Palin thoughts if Obama does well in the next 4 years……please.

    If Mr Obama does well in the next four years, then he’ll be re-elected; of that I have little doubt. My guess is that he’ll be mediocre, but who can know at this point?

    The Republican Dana (3e4784)

  80. #72

    Of course I defend Wilkerson. He is (a) a military hero, (b) completely correct in his criticisms of the Bush Administration’s handling of Iraq post-invasion, and (c) repetitively attacked by anonymous cowards like the authors of this post and the authors of #1, #72, and #73. He is precisely the kind of guy I admire: smart, principled, courageous.

    When a guy with Wilkerson’s background talks, a “worthless piece of shit” like you or daleyrocks should stuff your jackassery and either (a) say something intelligent and respectful about the man, or (b) STFU.

    #73

    So what’s the implication here Karl? Are you calling a retired Colonel of the United States Army who served in three Republican administrations a traitor? Is that how low your stupidity and vileness goes? You guys are every bit as morally screwed up as the dingbats who protest American soldiers.

    Do have anything intelligent to say about Wilkerson, or do you just like slandering guys with the courage to put their names to their views? Wilkerson’s criticisms of Bush’s policy fiasco in Iraq have been borne out in every respect. If people like him had been in charge, Iraq post-invasion would have turned out vastly better.

    You, on the other hand, have zero authority, moral, factual or otherwise. Wilkerson proved his patriotism–what have you guys done for your country?

    If you have a principled, rational disagreement with anything Wilkerson has said over the past couple years, then say it. Problem is, he was and is correct. Therefore you dish out slander and insults from behind your screen name.

    And while I’m on the subject of the post, it seems to have mushed together from two separate competing pieces of nonsense.

    The first sentence reads “a Colin Powell associate demonstrates the Obama-Biden tactic of likening Republicans to George Bush”.

    However, the quote does not do that. Wilkerson first compares Bush to Sarah Palin,and then, in contrast, PRAISES Dick Cheney for his bureaucratic management skills.

    The next line after the quote says: “They really are afraid of Palin, aren’t they? Of course, this could also be part of proving fidelity to the new guard in Washington or a heartfelt statement of contempt for Bush and Palin.”

    Well, which is it? If DRJ thinks that Bush is an idiot, then I guess yes, equating Sarah Palin to George Bush is a dig against Palin motivated by fear or some other negative emotion. But if DRJ thinks Bush is not an idiot, then how does comparing Palin to Bush express “heartfelt…contempt”?

    But Wilkerson does not criticize ALL Republicans as the equivalent of Bush–he points out what everyone knows, that Dick Cheney is a smart, capable guy. Thus the evidence disproves DRJ’s initial assertion; Wilkerson is not saying that ALL Republicans are like Palin and Bush, he is arguing that those two fall on one side of the spectrum and Republicans like Dick Cheney fall on the other.

    Instead of worrying about whether an American hero and three-time official in Republican administrations is expressing “fidelity” to our next Commander in Chief and President of the United States, perhaps you should consider whether your pusillanimous slander of a soldier and government official whom history has proved correct shows your own intellectual and moral bankruptcy.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  81. Comment by Cyrus Sanai — 12/30/2008 @ 1:14 pm

    Bottom line, counselor….
    We probably have a higher opinion of Wilkerson, and are willing to extend a greater level of respect to him, than you – who has in the past demonstrated that you are no better than the slimiest ambulance chaser.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  82. #75

    Jay,

    Thank you for your thoughtful post.

    My first point was that no one with Wilkerson’s distinguished record of courageous service to this country deserves to be, or can fairly, called a “worthless piece of shit” by a multiple anonymous prevaricator like daleyrocks. Anyone is takes that position is just a right-wing paper-bag version of Jeremiah Wright

    Second, on matters military, people with distinguished records of military service DO have greater moral and intellectual authority on matters military than than the rest of us. Why? Because they have been there, and in Wilkerson’s case, studied itas well. That means when someone like Wilkerson speaks, he is entitled to the respect earned by his service and accomplishments.

    You bring up a good point, which is what the proper object of loyalty is for political mid-ranking officials like Wilkerson. Is it to the “people you work for” or to the nation and values it represents? The biggest flaw of the second Bush Administration was that it valued fidelity to the boss far more than fidelity to the law or objectives of good governance. People like Wilkerson are faithful to the law and their duties, irrespective of what they “bosses” may want. Men and women like Wilkerson are instinctively hated by the suck-ups, the cowards, the brown-nosers.

    While personal loyalty is important, in government loyalty to the law and what it dictates is more important. Fidelity to whomever holds the reigns of power is feudalism; fidelity to the law and the principles of the nation is republicanism (small r).

    One of the reasons that this is a great country, and that all the predictions of collapse or a diminished role in the world will be disappointed, is that there is a huge reserve of people who understand the difference between loyalty to person and loyalty to principle, and act on the latter Indeed, one of the most admirable aspects of the military in the whole torture/interrogation fiasco was the large number of military officers and enlisted men who fought against the discredited policies. Similarly, the conduct of the JAGs who were assigned defense roles in the Gitmo proceedings and then fought the military tribunals every step of the way show that by and large America’s servicemen understand that loyalty to their office trumps loyalty to their career or their past superiors.

    EVERY American owes men and women like Wilkerson respect. Implying that their principled disagreements over military matters is akin to selling out this country shows the needs for a refresher course in both history and civics and perhaps a reconstruction of an absent moral sensibility. While it is not improper to disagree with Wilkerson (though very difficult given that history has vindicated him), to call him “a worthless piece of shit” or imply he is a traitor brands the accuser as the true “worthless piece of shit”. It’s no surprise that people like daleyrocks and Karl stay anonymous, because those kind of comments once attached to a person earn nothing but contempt from people who honor this nation.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  83. #80

    Really? You have a higher opinion of Wilkerson than I do? Then why aren’t you slamming daleyrocks and instead slamming me? Let’s hear some praise for Wilkerson then, under your own name.

    As for your attack against me–nope, I see no evidence. Just more anonymous slander.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  84. EVERY American owes men and women like Wilkerson respect.

    For his service. Not for anything beyond that.

    Don’t you have more slime to peddle to the LAT?

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  85. Cyrus,

    In addition to his specific critique of Palin and Bush, I view Wilkerson’s comment as a more general slam on state governors and their foreign policy abilities. I suspect he sees them as provincial compared to knowledgeable men of the world like Colin Powell.

    What do you think?

    DRJ (1a6fbf)

  86. #74

    Ropelight,

    You write “Wilkerson was wrong to describe GWB as Palin-like”. Here’s what I don’t get. Do you think (a) describing someone as “Palin-like” is an insult, as your comment suggests? Or do you think, as the author of the post seems to believe, that comparing Palin with President Bush is an insult to him?

    Even though Reagan was widely derided by the left, no one on the Republican side views being called “Reagan-like” or being compared to him as an insult. Yet being compared to the current President is an :”Obama-Biden tactic”? What does that say about DRJ’s opinion of the President? Likewise, why do you think comparing George Bush at the time of his inauguration to Sarah Palin is off-base? Bush was and Palin is a popular governor who had prior experience in the private sector. Neither had material experience in foreign affairs. How, exactly, is that comparison wrong?

    Wilkerson’s comparison is perfectly defensible from a factual point of view and can only be viewed as insulting if you have a low opinion of Bush and/or Palin. It does not in any way allow anyone to call Wilkerson a “worthless piece of shit” from behind a screen name.

    What’s funny of course is that you guys know this–but you are too bound up by your visceral hatred of a walking, talking example of true American heroism and patriotism to do more than write, like “another Drew”, that in REALITY you admire the guy more than I do while pitching more random bile my way and keeping silent about the inexcusably vile abuse aimed at Wilkerson by daleyrocks and Karl.

    .

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  87. Wilkerson’s sneering comments are of a kind of the sort we get from Powell and his sycophants. Its been a full time job for more than one of Powell’s aides to try to keep the consequences of Colin Powell’s misjudgments on other people’s laps.

    SPQR (72771e)

  88. Cyrus:

    Yet being compared to the current President is an :”Obama-Biden tactic”? What does that say about DRJ’s opinion of the President?

    Obama, Biden and most Democrats use Bush and Bush Derangement Syndrome to defame every Republican who poses a threat to them.

    DRJ (1a6fbf)

  89. 84

    DRJ,

    Well if that is what you were getting at it was not well expressed, but fine, let’s take that point.

    Wilkerson’s systemic criticism, which he has expressed in other occasions, is that Bush was inexperienced in foreign affairs, like Obama, and that he got co-opted by Cheney and Rumsfeld, both of whom were experienced bureaucratic power-players but seriously deficient when it came to military strategy and planning. He contends that those two shut out Powell and the military leaders on the grounds, particularly Gen. Shinseki, who requested more troops early on for the occupation and was attacked by both Rumsfeld and that odious lapdog, Wolfowitz, both of whom, history I think shows, were utterly wrong not to accede to Shinseki’s request. More troops in 2003 would have made things much better and perhaps led to extraction by now and who knows, maybe a President McCain.

    Obviously, a sitting president unless he has himself significant military experience is not the best judge of what to do in a military campaign. So I don’t think it would have made any difference if from an experience point of view if Bush had been, say, an undersecretary of state instead of a baseball executive or a senator instead of a governor. Thus I don’t think Wilkerson is slamming governors, but rather warning about the consequences of ignoring a four-star general in favor of a think-tank hack like Wolfowitz.

    In short, Wilkerson believes that Bush was horribly advised by Rumsfeld, Cheney et. al. and that Bush disastrously put his faith in them over experienced military officers like Gens. Powell and Shinseki.

    I think President-elect Obama deserves a lot of credit for bringing back Shinseki from retirement, BTW. He is a very capable administrator and, like Wilkerson, is a man of high integrity. It also suggests, with Obama’s continuation of Gates at DOD, that Obama is putting experience higher than partisan hackery. That’s doubly important for a Democrat, given that a large chuck of the Democratic party thinks, like daleyrocks, that every Vietnam veteran and high-ranking military officer is “a worthless piece of shit”.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  90. Wow! I see I missed a number of Cyrus’s condescending comments about the other posters here and his usual mind reading attempts about their backgrounds, etc.

    I respect Wolkerson’s service to his country Cyrus but I abhor the way he and his ilk at the State Department deliberately undermined the administration of the President they pledged to serve. You say it was a question of following the law – I say bullshit. You lie enough on this blog and then flee when confronted with them so you never have to admit you are wrong. That is your proven pattern, coward.

    Your crap about anonymous names is a tired old gambit, Cyrus. You’ve already embarrassed yourself all over the internet and publicly so privacy doesn’t matter to somebody like you. That’s nice. I’m happy for you.

    I’m glad you keep calling me a liar as well. The only thing I’m aware of in dispute is the comment I repeated from commenter at another blog about your family, which I explained. Please cite the other lies you are talking about for the edification of the other commenters. I’ll wait, big guy.

    How is your mom’s divorce appeal coming?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  91. Correction to #88

    “grounds” should say “ground and in the Pentagon”.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  92. “That’s doubly important for a Democrat, given that a large chuck of the Democratic party thinks, like daleyrocks, that every Vietnam veteran and high-ranking military officer is “a worthless piece of shit”.”

    Cyrus – There you go with those crazee mind reading skilz again!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  93. Sanai, I see you are repeating the silly canard about Shinseki’s claim on the number of troops needed for the Iraq operation. The reality is that Shinseki’s number was chosen not as a realistic number of troops to accomplish the operation but as its own bureaucratic tactic to attempt to scuttle the operation. History has shown not that Shinseki was correct, but that Shinseki had no real idea how to accomplish the mission. The rest of the Shinseki myth is the idea that more troops substitute for what the Iraq occupation really needed which was time.

    But go ahead and continue to use “lapdog” to describe people of more intelligence and character than yourself. And please continue to show your interest in free speech and discussion with such pithy comments as “STFU”.

    SPQR (72771e)

  94. “particularly Gen. Shinseki, who requested more troops early on for the occupation”

    Cyrus – Did you buy in to that Shinseki canned for asking for more troops myth peddled by the left?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  95. Palin can see Russia because Russia can be seen from parts of Alaska! When quizzed further, she could come up with nothing to back up her claim except to repeat this lame response.

    There’s a million more reasons Dana.

    Personally, I think she helped McCain’s campaign contrary to what many Republicans think.
    If it wasn’t for the curiosity factor of McCain’s sexy strange pic (instead of a safe one), people would still be talking about the DNC, and that bounce would of been sure to last……. but us Americans being Americans like shiny new quarters and hail marry passes.

    Palin’s Executive Experience? Oh yeah she governs a state with the population of San Bernardino California, that’s enough right?

    Oiram (983921)

  96. Hmmmm….

    Let’s see. Biden was governor of Delaware.

    No, wait, he was one of two Senators from that state.

    873,000 total population,, divided by two, equals….

    Less than the population of Alaska.

    And Biden wasn’t administering much other than his own mouth, being confused about when television was invented, eating lunch in restaurants demolished a decade before, and lying about his own background. Oh, and playing character assassination games toward Supreme Court nominees.

    So tell me again how much more qualified Biden was than Palin? And if you actually say his foreign policy experience, shall we start with his proposal to divide Iraq up into three countries?

    Please. You are just another partisan elitocrat. But hey, that’s fine.

    Me, I sure hope nothing happens to BO.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  97. Palin can see Russia because Russia can be seen from parts of Alaska!

    You can actually see Russia from Little Diomede Island, Moiron – we’ve had a military outpost for years there, where our observers look straight across at Big Diomedes Island, which is staffed by the Russian military as well. It’s been this way since the Cold War, and has always been thus. So do try to read some history before opening your backside and inserting your mouth into it…again.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  98. Less than the population of Alaska.

    Don’t confuse Moiron with facts, Eric – it makes both of his little heads hurt too much.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  99. Oiram, good point. Palin had more experience in executive matters than Obama – who never ran any government as large as San Bernardino. Thanks for reminding me.

    SPQR (72771e)

  100. Honest to God, Dmac, I think that a lot of people get all their “news” from SNL or the Daily Show or nonsense like that.

    It is endlessly tragic to me see the Left project its own issues upon the Right. Where do I see the most sexism these days? How about the racism that Clarence Thomas and Michael Steele have to endure? And we have already seen the anti-Semitism of the Left.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  101. Cyrus – Wilkerson was part of the State Department cabal that sabotaged Bolton’s U.N. Ambassadorship. He has also called for the impeachment of both Bush and Cheney. He supported Wesley Clark.

    Enough said.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  102. Oh, and folks?

    The population of San Bernadino, California is about one third the population of Alaska.

    I just checked, which is something that our previous poster didn’t.

    Feelings, not facts, rule.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  103. Wilkerson is an academic soldier like Powell. Show me a Purple Heart, a Combat Infantryman’s Badge, a Silver Star, a DSC. Bet you find a degree in English Literature instead.

    nk (2f022a)

  104. #89

    Your words are your words daleyrocks: retired Colonel, Army Ranger, volunteer in Vietnam=”worthless piece of shit”. That puts you in the company of gasbags like Jeremiah Wright, except he stands behind his words–you don’t have the courage to say that with your true name.

    As for your habitual dishonesty, you just displayed it. You write that Wilkerson “and his ilk at the State Department deliberately undermined the administration”. Really? What did he do? You can’t point at one authoratative source that shows Wilkerson doing ANYTHING inappropriate while he served in the State Department. Your accusation that he did so is a lie. You make crap up and then say “your read it somewhere”.

    You don’t pledge to serve an administration, daleyrocks. You pledge to serve a NATION. Powell and Wilkerson did everything they could to lead the country in the right path on Iraq. When a president starts going down the wrong path, it is the job of his staff to point out the right way internally. Then, when they leave the administration, it is perfectly appropriate to explain where things are going wrong in public.

    What you abhor, daleyrocks, is that Wilkerson and Powell were 100% right on Iraq, and in Wilkerson’s case he had the courage to say so in his own name after he left the administration. You have no argument on this, so you call Wilkerson a “worthless piece of shit” and then bring in irrelevancies to distract from your vile disrespect for a true American hero. This thread is not about me, it is about Wilkerson and the reflexive gag reflex at courage and integrity displayed by your and your anonymous band of revolting, un-American trolls.

    As for my points about your anonymity? Nah, that never gets old. Anyone who calls a distinguished Vietnam veteran a “worthless piece of shit” from behind a screen name is inherently a “worthless piece of shit”, and it is important to point out that even from behind the curtain, you like to dish it out but man you cannot take it.

    Also, my comments as to you and Karl are not condescending–they are, in fact, contemptuous, because you two are contemptible.

    I don’t have infinite time to debate. On some things, like presentation of partial match DNA evidence to juries, I’d actually like to pick up the debate when I have an agreed set of facts to discuss the evidentiary implications of certain statistics, as it is actually something that deserves more fleshing out. But I WORK for a living, so at some point I say everything I have to say, then goodbye.

    And your inquiry about my mother–everything is going fine. But thank you, again, for showing that you cannot hold a debate on a topic without waving your hands and throwing in the kitchen sink. After all, since you are a screen name, I can’t talk about your background can I? All I can do is point out the disgusting implications of your dishonesty and anonymous slander of man who risked his life for his country, who tried to help this country have a successful occupation of Iraq, and who went public after he left the administration, pointing out correctly why things were going wrong.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  105. How dare you bring up another inconvenient truth for Virus, Daley. Don’t you dare impugn the honor, integrity and all – around awesomeness of Mr. Wilkerson. Goddamnit, the man served in uniform, and that’s all that counts when it comes to his political views. It means that he’s right and you’re a scumbag to even question his motives – now get on your knees and beg his forgiveness immediately!

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  106. #102

    NK,

    Wilkerson had 1,100 hours of combat missions in a recon helicopter in Vietnam getting shot at from the ground. Wilkerson did not have a college degree when he joined up. He earned that afterwards. So he is both a combat experienced veteran and an academic soldier (there being a dearth of front-line experience for a while after Vietnam).

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  107. I think that a lot of people get all their “news” from SNL or the Daily Show or nonsense like that.

    That’s giving Moiron far too much credit, Eric – his primary source for news is most likely Kos or Puffington Toast. But he also thinks programs like The Daily Show and SNL are actually factual news outlets.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  108. Cyrus – You are just a gasbag. Wilkerson was also famous for complaining that Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld shut the bureaucracy out of the policy-making process. Imagine that! The cabinet sets policy as opposed to the bureacracy and the pencil necks get upset.

    Cyrus – Where is your proof of my lies? You were talking about them well before my comment #89. Do you have anything or not?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  109. He earned that afterwards. So he is both a combat experienced veteran and an academic soldier

    While I respect his contributions to his country tremendously, that does not make him de facto immune to criticisms over his political views. This is the same type of nonsense that the Left tried with Kerry, who was allegedly slimed by his fellow soldiers who proved his many claims of service to be fraudulent, as with his “Christmas in Cambodia” statement, along with his “seared in my memory” moments. I admired his service to his country, but I didn’t care for the man politically. That’s the way a democracy is supposed to work, is it not?

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  110. Cyrus – Is Wilkerson one of your clients?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  111. #101 I was making a joke on San Bernardino, thanks for fact checking Eric.

    The whole population of Alaska is three times the size of San Bernardino.

    Wow three times, that’s a little of people.

    Oiram (983921)

  112. Cyrus – Why did your latest ethics complaint against Judge Kozinski get stalled at the 9th Circuit level?

    Were you also the person who convinced Ralph Mecham to file a complaint against the Judge?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  113. Dear Mario:

    Now, your very simple error shows that you aren’t interested in fact…but your feelings.

    Again.

    Because before you said something rude and dismissive, you wouldn’t even deign to check.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  114. Dear Dmac:

    It’s funny how service only seems to count for Democrats.

    Besides, I thought that dissent was the highest form of patriotism.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  115. Wow three times, that’s a little of people.

    You have proven to have been beaten with a stupid stick repeatedly during your youth. Please stop talking now, you’re in the process of eating your lower GI out of existence.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  116. #104

    Dmac,

    Wilkerson’s political and military views of course can be debated on the merits. The problem, of course, is that none of the trolls actually want to discuss his views on the merits, since he was and is correct about the policy errors of the Bush administration.

    In particular, Wilkerson’s comparison of the relative experience of Gov. Palin now and the President when he took office, the subject of the post, are factually correct (not that the President-elect has better credentials mind you). Whether you find that comparison insulting depends on your respective opinions of the President and Gov. Palin, or perhaps, as DRJ clarified, your opinion of their reputations.

    What Wilkerson’s heroism and service to this country do refute is accusations that he is a “piece of shit” from the basement dwelling, diapered troll brigade. Calling Wilkerson “a worthless piece of shit” is no different than Jeremiah Wright calling for the damnation of America except by its scale. It’s so obviously, repellently wrong that the speaker of the words instantly discredit himself and deserves condemnation. Pointing that out–the similarity between left-wing goons like Wright and right-wing goons like daleyrocks– is the uncomfortable truth that is making you guys squirm like worms. Except, of course, that Wright is willing to put his name to his words, while many of your are not.

    What’s fun, from my point of view, is watching the anonymous trolls try to defend daleyrocks without, you know, actually defending him. Daleyrocks himself can’t justify his words, so he lies about Wilkerson’s service in the State Department. Wilkerson became a critic of the Bush Administration’s handling of Iraq AFTER he left. There’s nothing he did other than faithfully serve this nation and his boss, Colin Powell, when he worked at the State Department.

    So rather than defend daleyrocks accusations with sourced facts, you bring up my claim to fame. So what? I stand behind my words or, if proven wrong, admit the error. That still does not erase the stain of what daleyrocks wrote.

    You can’t call someone a “worthless piece of shit” and then say you respect his service to this country. Men and women like Wilkerson don’t merit sarcasm, innuendo that they are a traitor, or being called a “worthless piece of shit”; they deserve respect and if you disagree with them, respectful argument. Epithet’s like “worthless piece of shit” should properly reserved for daleyrocks and his ilk, who, because if you don’t reveal yourself and your accomplishments, your words are “worthless”. Daleyrocks has earned nothing in this world and done nothing, otherwise he would reveal himself.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  117. Dmac, you crack me up.

    Republicans, all I ask is that you reconsider Palin in 2012.

    If you guys think she could lead this country, you are the ones who have been beaten by the “stupd stick”.

    Again, I say by all means stick to your Palin guns if Obama has a good 4 years.

    But if he doesn’t, I will be looking for a Republican leader to take his place. Palin is not that leader.

    Oiram (983921)

  118. #112 I love it Eric. I make a joke about the population of Alaska and suddenly I’m rude and dismissive.

    You know how many times jokes have been made here?

    Yes I was exaggerating about the population or lack of in Alaska for humor’s sake.

    You know how many times I’ve had to put up with baracky jokes here?

    But hey, sorry I offended your beloved Palin.

    Oiram (983921)

  119. #111

    Daleyrocks, the subject of this post is Lawrence Wilkerson, and the subject of my posts is your calling a true American hero a “worthless piece of shit”.

    That is what we are talking about. If you want to talk about me, get a new post opened about me. I may or may not talk about me in a different threat, but this thread is not about me, so I will not talk about me. I know you love talking about me, but, this is not about me. It is about Lawrence Wilkerson, his views on the Bush administration, and whether he is (a) a “worthless piece of shit” as you contend, or (b) a true American hero unfairly maligned by anonymous scumbags, as I contend.

    In the interim, please stop your panicky efforts to change the subject and explain, with sourcing, why you believe he is a “worthless piece of shit”, with citation to something other than your usual excuse of “I thought I read it somewhere”, and in particular, what you contend he did, again with citation to sources other than your “I though I read it somewhere”, while serving under Colin Powell that undermined this country or the policy objectives of President Bush.

    In fact, there is nothing–precisely zero–that you can accurately cite about Wilkerson. All of Wilkerson’s public criticisms were leveled after he left the administration.

    So: facts about Wilkerson please.

    (crickets).

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  120. #109

    I have never met Wilkerson or corresponded with him. I have read things he has written.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  121. Cyrus, there are certain people here who think the sun shines out of G.W’s butt.

    They will not be swayed.

    They think they will have to wait 50 years or so for history to judge him positively.

    Oiram (983921)

  122. Cyrus:

    In short, Wilkerson believes that Bush was horribly advised by Rumsfeld, Cheney et. al. and that Bush disastrously put his faith in them over experienced military officers like Gens. Powell and Shinseki.

    I had hoped you would address my point about Wilkerson’s views on governors but if you insist on discussing Bush and BDS, let’s at least look at the Shinseki facts rather than the myths.

    From CNN on the myth that Bush rejected Shinseki’s insistence on the need for more troops:

    MCINTYRE: But Shinseki has critics, too, who say, in fact, he never stood up to Rumsfeld, never pressed for more troops in Iraq, and when asked in a private meeting of the Joint Chiefs if he had concerns about the war plans, never said a word, according to two people who were in the room.

    Asked by “Newsweek” two years ago to respond to the criticism he didn’t press his concerns, Shinseki e-mailed back: “Probably that’s fair. Not my style.”

    DRJ (8b9d41)

  123. Two points…
    Cyrus, I should have inserted one more word in my last post, as such….
    “…and are willing to extend a greater level of respect to him, than to you…”;

    Re: Palin…
    After Alaska is retaken by Russia, it would not surprise me to find her moving into a new office …
    I can see the movie…The Sarrahcuda Takes Moscow.

    Is there a natural born requirement to run Russia?

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  124. Since Cyrus asked:

    So what’s the implication here Karl? Are you calling a retired Colonel of the United States Army who served in three Republican administrations a traitor? Is that how low your stupidity and vileness goes?

    Not at all. Just a vivid illustration of the fact that a man can have a brilliant and courageous military career and yet still turn out badly. That Wilkerson actively worked against an Administration of which he was a part doesn’t make him a traitor in the way Arnold was, but it doesn’t speak well of his current character. Nor did his kooky, raving suggestions that the government was secretly being run by Cheney and Rumsfeld without Bush’s knowledge, for that matter. And the really great thing is that those points stand, regardless of whether it is made anonymously or not. Cyrus seems to have a problem with the whole “an idea rises or falls on its merits, not by who holds it” thing.

    Karl (2491e1)

  125. Shinseki…. “Probably that’s fair. Not my style.”

    Not a Warrior…Just another Perfumed Prince!

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  126. I’ll bet Sanai would be annoyed if he knew I scroll through his BS without reading it so I won’t mention it.

    Oiram, you have the typical lefty slams for Sarah Palin who had more experience in governing than either of your candidates. Would you mind regaling us with Obama accomplishments again ? What is the population of the district he represented in Chicago ? This is silly stuff. Sarah Palin is a natural politician from an unusual, for politics, background. She has actually done something with her life. As contrasted with Biden, who plagiarized his way through law school then spent decades in the Senate making foolish speeches and plagiarizing once again when he ran for president. Obama has been running for office since he gave up dope at Columbia. Caroline Kennedy shows just what an Ivy league education, “good political genes,” and an inherited fortune can accomplish. 21 “You know”s in a sentence.

    If Palin is going to run for president in 2012, she will need to work on her fund of knowledge, just as Margaret Thatcher did. John O’Sullivan, who knew Thatcher well, believes there is a lot of similarity, including the dismissive remarks of well-bred nonentities. We will see.

    Well, this should finish off the NY Times.

    MIke K (531ff4)

  127. Plus, if Wilkerson’s military exploits immunize him from criticism for his political blunders, I guess that means we can’t criticize Jack Murtha either?

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  128. “…including the dismissive remarks of well-bred nonentities…”

    …and then, there’s mariO.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  129. that’s a little of people.

    – That’s a little of correct grammar. Does this mean that I “got nothing”? or, is it just my way of criticizing you for, YET AGAIN, playing the Alaska-isn’t-really-an-important-state card. Facts are stubborn things, Oiram. She is still the governor of the largest (by land area, if not by population) state. She still has more executive experience than Obama, Biden, Edwards & Secretary of State SniperFireDodger.

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  130. Also, it’s interesting that Cyrus thinks so much of the claim that Wilkerson did not go ballistic until after his term as Powell’s CoS. Assuming for the sake of argument that such was true, it would mean that Wilkerson — who claims that his batty ravings are borne from loyalty to country over Administration — sat silently in his CoS position while all of this terrible stuff went on. He could have resigned over that stuff and made a big stink, but chose not to do so, and to snipe after his 2004 election-related “retirement.”

    Karl (2491e1)

  131. Can someone help me out. Anyone? I am doing a seminar on 21st century leadership secrets. My chosen topic is “Barack Obama. Why he won.” If you know anything that might be helpful in my research, please drop it on this thread. Please try to make it positive. Why do you think he won? What factors do you think helped him? What did he do to help himself? I really appreciate your help. God bless you all.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  132. Well, this should finish off the NY Times.
    Comment by MIke K — 12/30/2008 @ 4:34 pm

    This presents the question as to whether or not this was filed as just a precursor to a settlement;
    or is she, and her attorney’s, serious enough to take this to trial, and attempt to knock-down some of the media’s protection contained in Sullivan v. NYT (or is that NYT v. Sullivan, since it was determined upon appeal?)?

    I, for one, would certainly like to see this go to trial, and to have some limitations laid upon Sullivan,
    which seems to have given the media too much protection for the sliming that they love to do.

    One bit of advice: If Punch wants to settle (or has a settlement forced upon him), get the cash,
    because anything else could turn out to be worthless.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  133. #123

    I like debates based on facts. Wilkerson’s service to his country mean that he is (a) a patriot, and (b) an authority on military matters.

    Wilkerson does not contend that Rumsfeld “secretly” ran the government. He contends that Rumsfeld actually rant the war and the occupation, but did it the wrong way. He also has criticized the CIA, but in more measured terms.

    As for Cheney, he and his team were heavily involved in certain aspects of Iraq that Wilkerson believes were wrong, in particular the interrogation policies. If you don’t think that’s true, I can toss you some sources in a bit.

    The key moment where things went wrong according to Wilkerson and now many others was in 2003, when Shinseki publicly requested many more troops for the occupation and Rumsfeld shot him down. That was a disastrous rejection of considered military advice, that came not from any better military experience that Rumsfeld had, but due to his desire to force the military to make do with less.

    No one argues that Bush was ignorant of what Rumsfeld or Cheney was doing. Bush delegated (or in the case of the interrogation matters Cheney arrogated), but he handed responsibility to the wrong guys. That’s not kooky; it is what actually what happened.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  134. Oiram continued (94):

    Palin can see Russia because Russia can be seen from parts of Alaska! When quizzed further, she could come up with nothing to back up her claim except to repeat this lame response.

    There’s a million more reasons Dana.

    Really? You don’t seem to be able to give them. I asked you, very specifically, in comment 77:

    Oiram, unless it’s just demagoguery, surely you have some reasons why a Palin presidency would scare you. What is it you believe that she would do, as president, which frightens you so?

    We’re now into multiple attempts, and we still have no actual reasons. The closest thing I can get from your responses is that you don’t care for Mrs Palin because she’s not glib.

    You wrote:

    Palin’s Executive Experience? Oh yeah she governs a state with the population of San Bernardino California, that’s enough right?

    Yet you voted for a guy with even less than that. I’d call actually running something rather important, given that the duty of the office is running something very, very big.

    You said that the thought of a Palin presidency “scared” you, but you can’t seem to come up with a single reason why it would scare you. At this point, your stated fears are like the kid who fears the monsters under the bed.

    The inquisitive and VERY persistant Dana (556f76)

  135. “Benedict Arnold had a distinguished military career also. But thanks for playing the Absolute Moral Authority Card. Impressive.”

    Arnold betrayed the country. Wilkerson betrays Palin.

    imdw (0c5a72)

  136. Mario writes:

    “Yes I was exaggerating about the population or lack of in Alaska for humor’s sake.”

    Actually, I don’t believe you. And you might want to reconsider your definition of “humor.”

    I think you were just being snarky and weren’t interested in facts. This seems to be your “hit and run” style. But by all means, please continue the fiction that you carefully consider and research your posts before hitting that “submit comment” button.

    “Beloved” Palin? Straw (wo)man, unless you are projecting your own mindless support of Barack Obama (whom I have never called “Baracky” incidentally). What everyone is thumping you about is your amazingly flexible yardstick regarding how you measure the accomplishments of individuals. You can’t even say that Palin doesn’t communicate effectively, when you look at Biden’s bloviations over the years.

    And we know you aren’t simply a sexist, right?

    You go right ahead thinking that Tina Fey’s impression of Sarah Palin is factual. That’s so very deep of you. On the other hand, you can do what I will do: watch how she develops as a politician. Because I certainly wouldn’t vote for someone with no real record of accomplishment, not a shred of foreign policy experience, many unsavory friends and associates, and a ever-unfolding laundry list of broken campaign promises.

    Would you?

    AD, do you want to reconsider what you wrote about Mario in #127. It’s the bred part that you may need to rethink.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  137. Comment by Karl — 12/30/2008 @ 4:43 pm

    Good Points!
    Just how long was Wilkerson in an Executive Level – Civil Service position?
    Perhaps his reluctance to resign, and to go public could be traced to a need to put in his time to qualify for another govt pension?

    There are some things more important than doing right for your country…
    Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  138. #121

    I did address it. I don’t think Wilkerson thinks governors are worse than say senators. Please reread my post.

    Here’s what actually happened, from a February 28, 2003 article in the New York Times:

    ___________________
    In a contentious exchange over the costs of war with Iraq, the Pentagon’s second-ranking official today disparaged a top Army general’s assessment of the number of troops needed to secure postwar Iraq. House Democrats then accused the Pentagon official, Paul D. Wolfowitz, of concealing internal administration estimates on the cost of fighting and rebuilding the country.

    Mr. Wolfowitz, the deputy defense secretary, opened a two-front war of words on Capitol Hill, calling the recent estimate by Gen. Eric K. Shinseki of the Army that several hundred thousand troops would be needed in postwar Iraq, “wildly off the mark.” Pentagon officials have put the figure closer to 100,000 troops. Mr. Wolfowitz then dismissed articles in several newspapers this week asserting that Pentagon budget specialists put the cost of war and reconstruction at $60 billion to $95 billion in this fiscal year. He said it was impossible to predict accurately a war’s duration, its destruction and the extent of rebuilding afterward.

    “We have no idea what we will need until we get there on the ground,” Mr. Wolfowitz said at a hearing of the House Budget Committee. “Every time we get a briefing on the war plan, it immediately goes down six different branches to see what the scenarios look like. If we costed each and every one, the costs would range from $10 billion to $100 billion.” Mr. Wolfowitz’s refusal to be pinned down on the costs of war and peace in Iraq infuriated some committee Democrats, who noted that Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and Mitchell E. Daniels Jr., the budget director, had briefed President Bush on just such estimates on Tuesday.

    “I think you’re deliberately keeping us in the dark,” said Representative James P. Moran, Democrat of Virginia. “We’re not so naïve as to think that you don’t know more than you’re revealing.” Representative Darlene Hooley, an Oregon Democrat, also voiced exasperation with Mr. Wolfowitz: “I think you can do better than that.”

    Mr. Wolfowitz, with Dov S. Zakheim, the Pentagon comptroller, at his side, tried to mollify the Democratic lawmakers, promising to fill them in eventually on the administration’s internal cost estimates. “There will be an appropriate moment,” he said, when the Pentagon would provide Congress with cost ranges. “We’re not in a position to do that right now.”

    At a Pentagon news conference with President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, Mr. Rumsfeld echoed his deputy’s comments. Neither Mr. Rumsfeld nor Mr. Wolfowitz mentioned General Shinseki, the Army chief of staff, by name. But both men were clearly irritated at the general’s suggestion that a postwar Iraq might require many more forces than the 100,000 American troops and the tens of thousands of allied forces that are also expected to join a reconstruction effort.

    “The idea that it would take several hundred thousand U.S. forces I think is far off the mark,” Mr. Rumsfeld said. General Shinseki gave his estimate in response to a question at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on Tuesday: “I would say that what’s been mobilized to this point — something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers — are probably, you know, a figure that would be required.” He also said that the regional commander, Gen. Tommy R. Franks, would determine the precise figure.
    _____________________

    After Rumsfeld overruled Shinseki, I think you are right, Shinseki did nothing more. But what was he supposed to do? He said “we need X troops” internally and when asked in testimony in front of Congress, and Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz said no. They were wrong, disastrously wrong.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  139. Sanai thinks that repeating his myths make them true, but his repetition does not change the fact that the “Shinseki Myth” is still false. Shinseki simply didn’t say what Sanai claims. And regardless subsequent history does not show that troop numbers were the problem, rather gaining control of Iraq took time, commitment and adaptation of tactics.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  140. Love2008 wrote:

    “…I am doing a seminar on 21st century leadership secrets….”

    Oh dear God Almighty.

    He might even be telling the truth here.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  141. Love2008 wrote:

    “…I am doing a seminar on 21st century leadership secrets….”

    Oh dear God Almighty.

    He might even be telling the truth here.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  142. AD, do you want to reconsider what you wrote about Mario in #127. It’s the bred part that you may need to rethink.
    Comment by Eric Blair — 12/30/2008 @ 4:50 pm

    No, I don’t think that mariO qualifies to be included in any part of that statement.
    Just as I wouldn’t consider what I find under a cow-pie as qualifying either.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  143. Oiram wrote:

    #101 I was making a joke on San Bernardino, thanks for fact checking Eric.

    Well, I see that I’ll have to be more cautious about just taking your word for silly things like easily checkable facts.

    The whole population of Alaska is three times the size of San Bernardino.

    Wow three times, that’s a little of people.

    The whole population of one state is thrice the size of a particular county’s geographical area? :)

    But, if you were unable to check a fairly simple claim that you made — pulled out of thin air, perhaps? — then why ought we to have any confidence concerning your judgement of Governor Palin’s abilities? You’ve given us no reasons for being “scared” of a Palin presidency, and really, no indication that you actually know anything.

    A clue for you: this is a tough crowd! You say something without the facts to support it, and you’ll get clobbered on this site.

    The amused Dana (556f76)

  144. The key moment where things went wrong according to Wilkerson and now many others was in 2003, when Shinseki publicly requested many more troops for the occupation and Rumsfeld shot him down. That was a disastrous rejection of considered military advice, that came not from any better military experience that Rumsfeld had, but due to his desire to force the military to make do with less.

    If that had ever happened, you and Wilkerson might have a point. Thing is, it didn’t.

    Tell me Cyrus, are Tommy Franks and John Abazaid reasonable sources of considered military advice?

    Pablo (99243e)

  145. You’ve given us no reasons for being “scared” of a Palin presidency, and really, no indication that you actually know anything.

    Dana, Oiram is afraid that math might be required under a Palin administration. ;)

    Pablo (99243e)

  146. Dana, Oiram is afraid that math might be required under a Palin administration…and the proper use of apostrophes and compound words.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  147. The Mathematically Aware Dana wrote:


    “…You say something without the facts to support it, and you’ll get clobbered on this site….”

    Actually, Dana, I disagree. I think (well, I know personally), that if you are polite here, and say something with which other posters disagree, they will engage you politely, and usually present websites and such to back up their own positions.

    Thus I have learned some different perspectives.

    But if you post snark rudely, well….

    The Wrath of IT, AD, Dmac, and many others descends, to smite snark with Snark.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  148. Cyrus, there are certain people here who think the sun shines out of G.W’s butt.

    Moiron has poor reading comprehension, since many of us haven’t particularly cared for Bush’s performance in office – but since Moiron definitely talks out of his orifice, you can’t really expect him to come up with anything remotely original.

    “Yes I was exaggerating about the population or lack of in Alaska for humor’s sake.”

    Yeah, of course you were – you were just being funny, rather than being exposed as just another ignoramus. Yeah, that’s the ticket.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  149. What is it with these characters and projection, Dmac?

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  150. “You can’t call someone a “worthless piece of shit” and then say you respect his service to this country.”

    Cyrus, that’s exactly what I did and you can’t stop me. I feel the same way about Jack Murtha. Would you be happier if I reversed the statements saying that I respect their service, but they are worthless pieces of shit? Is that less offensive to your sensibilities?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  151. Actually you can call someone a worthless piece of shit and respect their prior military service. Example: Randy Cunningham. As the Naval aviator who together with “Irish” Driscoll became aces over North Vietnam, he was a hero of mine. As a corrupt Congressman, he’s a worthless piece of shit.

    The reality is that Sanai is engaging in this silliness because Sanai’s first tactic in any discussion is to try to shut up others rather than confront the topic.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  152. Virus should take his obsessions outside – what a waste of space.

    What is it with these characters and projection, Dmac?

    I don’t know, but every time you use that particular word they tend to go apeshit, so obviously it leaves a deep mark on them.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  153. “Those lack of attacks on any significant US interest globally since 2002 is the worst thing that’s ever happened…”

    There’s like a few thousand ways in which this is wrong.

    imdw (8a983a)

  154. Dmac #151….

    Yeah, that is odd. I mean, if it wasn’t true, why all the shrieking and such?

    Personally, I think that they despise their own hypocrisy shown to them. After all, if they are so much better on the Left, they ought to be…well…better.

    And I am not referring to the polite folk from the Left who post here. I am referring to the trollish types.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  155. Cyrus writes:

    Wilkerson does not contend that Rumsfeld “secretly” ran the government. He contends that Rumsfeld actually rant the war and the occupation, but did it the wrong way.

    But what Wilkerson actually said was this:

    So you’ve got this collegiality there between the secretary of Defense and the vice president, and you’ve got a president who is not versed in international relations and not too much interested in them either. And so it’s not too difficult to make decisions in this what I call Oval Office cabal, and decisions often that are the opposite of what you’d thought were made in the formal process.

    This also gets at the heart of Wilkerson’s real complaints, which were that (a) the Administration wanted to implement policies that State bureaucrats like Wilkerson did not like. God forbid elected officials set policy; (b) the State Dept. in particular lost out in the post 9/11 turf wars (funny how Wilkerson’s championing of diplomacy as the primary thrust of the WoT would have empowered Wilkerson, innit).

    And that’s before we get to some of the other underlying motivation for Wilkerson’s policy disagreements with other members of the Administration.

    Not to mention that he’s a man who claims on one hand that Cheney and Rummy were not driven by ideology, but then goes around saying things like this:

    The Republican Party that I knew, that I grew up in, a moderate party, a party that believed in fiscal discipline, a party that believed in small government, a party that had genuine conservative values. This is not a conservative leadership. This is radical leadership. I called them neo-Jacobins. They are radical. They’re not conservative. They’ve stolen my party and I would like my party back.

    Speaks volumes to his credibility, particularly when spoken from his perch at the liberal New America Foundation.

    He’s no whistle-blower. He’s a disgruntled former staffer, seething that he didn’t get the influence he thought he would and trying desperately to cling to his social position in the Beltway.

    Karl (2491e1)

  156. #149

    So let me get this straight. A man volunteers to go to Vietnam; serves on the front lines getting shot at in his chopper by VC and NVA; earns degrees while in the service; teaches at the Naval War College; serves in 3 republican administrations; then, after he leaves the last one, publicly criticizes the now historically proven cock-up that was the occupation of Iraq; and that record gives you, daleyrocks, an anonymous coward who has exactly zero accomplishment in your life, the moral right to call him a “worthless piece of shit”.

    You are an un-American cretin.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  157. I’m sure hoping Cyrus voted for war hero John McCain, but I suspect he didn’t.

    Because of the… well, you know.

    Karl (2491e1)

  158. Cyrus – I called Wilkerson a worthless piece of shit in the first comment on this thread and explained my reasoning in comment #4. That’s my opinion and it is well supported by anecdotal evidence from many sources. Your comments on the thread seem mostly about unsupported allegations of my lying to which you have still not responded. Other than that, all you have offered up is your opinion to support your position, plus the discredited Shinseki more troops myth propagated by the left. I’m surprised a man od your self-claimed massive intelligence fell for that one. It makes me sad to report that your opinion is not worth any more than anyone else’s here and, in fact, given your demonstrated frequency of errors, it should probably be discounted.

    You remain a pompous, condescending gasbag.

    Good day sir.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  159. Oiram also provided a little elite-commando class warfare: He could’ve said the size of Aspen. But he chose San Bernardino. San Bernardino, as he and the media continue their 24/7 PDS lunacy.

    Vermont Neighbor (ceab4f)

  160. #154

    Yes that is what he says, and it was the process that is becoming better and better documented.

    I promised a citation of how this actually worked and I dug it up: Jayne Mayer’s The Dark Side, particularly Chapter 11.

    What Mayer describes in that chapter is how the interrogation, rendition and surveillance policies ended up being set not by the proper agencies, but by Cheney’s counsel Addington and Jay Bybee and John Yoo at OLC. The formal policy was supposed to be set in DOD (interrogation), State (rendition) and the NSA (wiretapping). Instead Cheney co-opts the process via Addington and Yoo and put it in the OLC because that is where Cheney knew he had someone willing to endorse these unlawful practices.

    The reason this happened was because, as you point out, the policymakers and lawyers in State, NSA and DOD (particularly Alberto Mora) thought what was going on in each case was illegal and/or wrong.

    Mayer also reveals how Addington set up the warrentless wiretapping program under Cheney’s direction and then, when the NSA’s own lawyers found out, refused to allow them clearance to review the program the NSA was running.

    Mayer writes (p. 268-269) that “But in time, Goldsmith concluded, the extreme secrecy served another purpose. It enabled the Vice President’s office to implement policies that were highly questionable and unlikely to survive open debate”.

    So Karl, you say the accusations concerning Cheney’s “secret” running of certain policies, like warrentless wiretapping, are crazy. However, that’s what happened according to Jack Goldsmith, professor at U Chicago and now Harvard, who took over OLC after Bybee and Yoo left.

    So who knows better? Jack Goldsmith, former head of OLC and now professor at Harvard Law School, and Lawrence Wilkerson, American hero? Or the anonymous posters daleyrocks and Karl?

    Any thinking person throws in, I think, with the guys who put their career and life on the line, as opposed to the guys who weren’t there, don’t know what happened, would wet their pants if their identity were known and can’t cite a source as to how things really went down?

    Now, if you have a credible journalistic or first person report contradicting what Mayer has written, cite it. But as far as the historical record that I have read shows, Cheney did secretly create and shield from scrutiny Bush Administration policies concerning rendition, interrogation (torture), and warrantless wiretapping.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  161. “You are an un-American cretin.”

    Its the wingnutosphere. Quit with the sanctimony. It don’t work.

    imdw (3dead3)

  162. “And that’s before we get to some of the other underlying motivation for Wilkerson’s policy disagreements with other members of the Administration.”

    He’s part of a ‘cabal’ with colin powell. How evil.

    imdw (1d0ada)

  163. #156

    I voted for McCain. That being said, I think to date President-elect Obama may well turn out to be a great leader. I have been nothing but impressed by his major Cabinet picks (recognizing, of course, that he is more left wing than I am).

    #157

    Daleyrocks, I can see that as I push you on your facts your start sounding more and more like Reverand Wright.

    You claim that Shinseki’s statement of the need for more troops is a myth. Shinseki testified about the amount of troops BEFORE CONGRESS. It was covered at the time. I quoted the New York Times news story. That’s no myth. That happened.

    So know I have you on two lies. First, that Wilkerson was somehow disloyal while serving under Powell. Your evidence? Nothing. Second, you deny that Shinseki stated that more troops were needed in 2003 than Rumsfeld wanted to send and did send. That’s no myth. That happened, in public.

    So, two critical factual mistatements that, unless you are delusional, you know are untrue. Yet you still make them.

    Now, the problem with people like daleyrocks is the same problem you have with Holocaust deniers and other lying freaks. Once they get caught in their lies after you show them the evidence,all they can do is state that reality does not exist, or they try to change the subject, or they bring out things like “worthless piece of shit”, or they say “I thought I read it somewhere”, all while hiding behind the curtain.

    DRJ, I hope I answered your query regarding Wilkerson’s views, though I don’t know the guy other than from his writings and interviews. So in the end I am guessing. I am not his spokesman; I do defend the guy because he is an American hero.

    Myself, as a lawyer, I prove and disprove things. I have now proved my point, so I am done. Have a Happy New Year everyone. Those who are fascinated by my personal life like daleyrocks will hear more in January and February.

    Cyrus Sanai (4df861)

  164. Hey Dmac:

    For sheer distilled essence of thoughtless projection (and Elitocrat snobbery), check out the Richard Cohen essay dissected here:

    http://www.randomjottings.net/archives/003699.html

    Amazing. They really don’t see how much they project themselves onto their so-called enemies.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  165. Daleyrocks,

    157

    you need to be more concise…..

    EricPWJohnson (5a816b)

  166. I like debates based on facts. Wilkerson’s service to his country mean that he is (a) a patriot, and (b) an authority on military matters.

    Neither of those necessarily holds. There are many people, living and dead, who served in the military and couldn’t give an informed opinion about strategy or international relations. Similarly there are those who have served who, bluntly, are not patriots.

    You’re pointing to a line on a resumé and declaring it the whole of a man — that’s simplistic, a child’s view of the world. Others are looking at what Wilkerson has done since and basing their opinion of him now on what he’s been doing most recently. There’s no inconsistency in thinking someone did well and good at one point and thinking they did horribly wrong at another.

    the now historically proven cock-up that was the occupation of Iraq

    “Historically proven cock-up”? You’ve not read much history, have you?

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  167. The Wrath of IT, JAD, Dmac, and many others descends, to smite snark with Snark.
    Comment by Eric Blair — 12/30/2008 @ 5:02 pm

    There. That assuages my sensibilities; and, thanks for the compliment.

    There’s like a few thousand ways in which this is wrong.
    Comment by imdw — 12/30/2008 @ 6:15 pm

    Hey. we’re not going anywhere soon, start listing…

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  168. First, that Wilkerson was somehow disloyal while serving under Powell. Your evidence? Nothing.

    Wrong — evidence was given to support this opinion. Your refusal to accept that evidence does not delete it from existence.

    You claim that Shinseki’s statement of the need for more troops is a myth.

    No, he didn’t claim that. He pointed out that the claim that Shinseki was fired for saying that was a myth.

    Now, the problem with people like daleyrocks is the same problem you have with Holocaust deniers and other lying freaks.

    Hyperbolic, much?

    Seriously, that’s a massive over-reach. I’d say you should be ashamed of reaching that far to (try to) make a point, but I don’t think you’re capable.

    Myself, as a lawyer, I prove and disprove things. I have now proved my point, so I am done.

    Oh, good Lord. You’ve proven only that you’re a blowhard who cannot argue against what people say (or write), but only against the phantasms of your own mind.

    And, BTW, lawyers do not “prove and disprove things”. They make arguments.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  169. “Hey. we’re not going anywhere soon, start listing…”

    Go see here: http://www.icasualties.org

    imdw (7ae49a)

  170. #53- “You may very well think that. I could not possibly comment.” – Francis Urquhart (Ian Richardson) House Of Cards, 1991

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  171. Comment by imdw — 12/30/2008 @ 8:04 pm

    Well, that’s one!
    Now you only have a few thousand, minus-1, to go.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  172. #51- I’ll give you a pass and wont embarrass you by humiitating your post regarding the space agency. Most Americans are ignorant of its breadth and scope on daily life and often focus on just manned spaceflight. Suffice to say it was Nixon, not LBJ, that castrated the finest R&D organization in the world. Moderate Republicans –and especially conservatives– have never been friendly to the civilian space program. Even Eisenhower was forced into creating NASA by events. LBJ was the last pro-space VP and POTUS.

    It’s not called the Johnson Space Center for nothing.

    Going in circles does that to organizations. Be it orbiting the Earth… or a race track. Somehow, circling the planet seems a more progressive challenge. But then again, I’m such an elitist, aren’t I. If only NASA had changed the oil in those APUs more often. Oh NASCAR, where is thy Fram-filtered-sting.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  173. “Well, that’s one!”

    Look around and you’ll see more than one on that site.

    imdw (788ade)

  174. It’s not called the Johnson Space Center for nothing.

    It’s called the JSC due to LBJ’s ability to ram an ear-mark through the Congress from the Majority Leader’s office in 1958, bringing $B’s to the Houston area, instead of it going to the Cape, or Huntsville AL, where the space community was centered previously.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  175. Comment by imdw — 12/30/2008 @ 9:06 pm
    Oh, excuse me. I thought you were actually going to present an argument in support of your position,
    or at least a summary of the background statistics that support your position.
    If it isn’t important enough for you to summarize, it surely isn’t important enough for me to chase.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  176. It’s not called the Johnson Space Center for nothing.

    It’s called the Johnson Space Center for the same reason Brown-Root took over Project Mohole and fucked it up. I was an aerospace engineer when you were still eating dog shit (Have you stopped?). Johnson took over everything as his reward for stealing Texas for Kennedy.

    As far as inflated estimates from REMFs about Wilkerson and Powell; The Army let Bush down badly in Iraq and he was determined not to second guess them like Johnson did. His mistake was that they knew nothing about COIN and had ignored every opportunity to learn since Vietnam,. The Marines were the ones that knew what to do. It took the Army until 2006 to figure it out. Wilkerson was part of that old Army. Those were the garrison commandoes who flew into Afghanistan in 2003 and told Special Forces guys to shave and get into uniform.

    Fuckups, in other words.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  177. Or the anonymous posters daleyrocks and Karl?

    as opposed to the guys who weren’t there, don’t know what happened, would wet their pants if their identity were known

    Cyrus has repeated these statements, or others so close as to be indistinguishable, repeatedly in this thread. A suspicious man would wonder just WHY he is so adamant about learning their identities? Looking to file another lawsuit against people who have pissed him off? Wanting to do a little internet investigation of his detractors? I simply can’t imagine a reason that would bode well for the people in question.

    “He is lawyer that gives all others a bad name..”

    Jay Curtis (8f6541)

  178. Don’t let ‘em get you angry, Dr. K.

    You know what these trolls are in real life.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  179. ” Oh, excuse me. I thought you were actually going to present an argument in support of your position,
    or at least a summary of the background statistics that support your position.”

    Look around on that site. On the left hand column, you’ll see that you can click on each month and find documentation. Did you look at the site?

    imdw (103984)

  180. If I want to see the names of casualties in the War on IslamFascism, I would watch Stephie on Sunday mornings, he tries to have pix.
    I thought you had something positive to bring to the discussion.
    Every struggle against evil has casualties, we call these men and women Warrior Hero’s.
    They are never arguments for doing nothing.
    Doing nothing is what good men do to allow evil to triumph, which forfeits their claim to being good.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  181. Would love to introduce D-whazzit to my rocket scientist coworkers who build stock cars in their spare time just to watch its head explode…

    And it’s pretty obvious that it isn’t aware of the many contributions to the advancement of scientific knowledge that NASCAR has made.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  182. Look around on that site. On the left hand column, you’ll see that you can click on each month and find documentation. Did you look at the site?

    I don’t know if anyone ever told you, but in a debate, it isn’t the other side’s job to do the research. You’re supposed to be the one presenting the evidence, not stand there saying “Hey, its there, not my fault you didn’t go looking for it”.

    So how about you actually put forth a god damn fact or statistic, huh? Maybe even link your source (link directly, or as close to directly, your item as possible). And then the other guys puts forth some data, citing it as best is possible, and you go from there…

    Or are you, as I suspect, a complete and utter idiot with no intention of having an actual debate?

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  183. “You’re supposed to be the one presenting the evidence, not stand there saying “Hey, its there, not my fault you didn’t go looking for it”.”

    Um, did you look at the site? Its all laid out there neat for you. Summarized, with links to details. You want me to cut and paste? Go there and see.

    “I thought you had something positive to bring to the discussion.”

    Sorry that its kind of negative to point out that there are thousands of ways that the statement “lack of attacks on any significant US interest globally since 2002″ i

    “So how about you actually put forth a god damn fact or statistic, huh?”

    That site is full of facts and statistics.

    “Maybe even link your source (link directly, or as close to directly, your item as possible). And then the other guys puts forth some data, citing it as best is possible, and you go from there…”

    You didn’t look at whats on that site, did you? Its got summary tables by periods and months. And then you can click on each month and see individual reports.

    imdw (6c0d8e)

  184. “Myself, as a lawyer, I prove and disprove things. I have now proved my point, so I am done.”

    Cyrus – Only to yourself, gasbag, but that’s no surprise.

    You proclaim yourself one of the world’s greatest lawyers yet come into this comment section and promptly forget the difference between fact and opinion and what constitutes evidence. You instead rely on bluster and intimidation that works with many commenters and you get upset when it doesn’t. You seem to be a deeply troubled and frustrated person.

    I have seen no proof of Wilkerson’s loyal service in the State Department during the Bush Administration, contrary to your repeated assertions.

    You have not presented any evidence of my alleged lies prior to this thread in spite of your repeated insults. I have asked you for this several times yet you cannot provide it.

    I’m not familiar with Jane Mayer’s book and it seems no other commenters are either. We’ve had many definitive books on the subjects you mentioned and if hers is based on the typical anonymous sources most have been I am surprised you would cite it as a source.

    Your Shinseki bullshit was adequately addressed by others above and needs no other comment.

    Changing the subject and twisting the comments of others are tactics you may believe are valid, but they are merely the footprints of an intellectual and moral coward. You continue to be a douchebag and gasbag of the highest order Cyrus.

    Try some Preparation H. It might help, but try to keep it out of your eyes.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  185. #176- Of course you were. Did I mention my meetings with Von Braun? Somehow, your name never came up.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  186. #174- Well, to be sure space dollars in that era it were spread through 45 states or so. Most of the money was spent on constructing infrastructure and operations, (building KSC, MSFC) not actual space hardware, although Apollo developmental costs were the highest of the the three civilian manned programs. Huntsville wasnt practical at the time, politically or geographically. Saturn was the center of the universe there and the German team at the arsenal worked wonders but NASA management, the old NACA guys, really never accepted them in top tiers. Respected their engineering missile skills all to hell, though. Saturn was indeed a wonder. Von Braun was the best face they had. After Apollo, they were phased out to industry teams. Dornberger at Bell; Von Braun at Fairchild and so on. Rudolph was run out of the coutry after managing the Saturn V team, exposed as Nazi. Even Von Braun’s background has been clouded. After Apollo, they were essentially kaput. But then, “our Germans were better than their Germans…” eh?

    Texas grabbed the brass ring thanks to LBJ and by luck, it was nicely located, geographically. Florida was the best place to expand a missile complex. Geography, again.

    It took a vindictive Nixon to kill it.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  187. Re: #185. It seems like quite a night for Personal Absolute Moral Authority, folks.

    Maybe everyone really does have all these connections. Maybe not. But there have been a LOT of such claims for one evening, on one blog.

    No big deal.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  188. #151- You have a low threshold for ‘heroes’. Randy ‘Duke’ Cunningham was my congressman for a time out of Escondido. Corrupt. Egocentric. Republican. In short, a thief.

    He didnt respect the Navy or his own service and betrayed the public trust. He shamed himself, his party, his country and the Navy. The crook belongs in prison.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  189. RE-#187- You can take this to the bank- Von Braun was allergic to feather pillows; shaved using Gilette Foamy; used a safety razor and, for a missile engineer, believed strongly in God. Also, he wasnt too keen on BTO cranked up past 11 PM.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  190. #136 You go right ahead thinking that Tina Fey’s impression of Sarah Palin is factual.

    You betcha.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  191. I didn’t say I doubted you. I just thought it was interesting how many aggressive posters were stating that they had personal impacts of subjections under discussion. You and WvB, another poster with many friends with TMJ, another who lost family in German death camps. All in one evening.

    Wikipedia agrees with you, in part, about WvB:

    “On one such visit in the spring of 1974 to Allegheny College, von Braun revealed a more personal, down-to-earth side of himself as a man in his early 60s, beyond the public persona most saw, including an all-too-human allergy to feather pillows and a subtle, if not humorous disdain for some rock music of the era.”

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  192. From the Wall Street Journal 8/30/06, speaking of the State Separtment sitting on the the fact of Sick Armitage being the leaker of Valerie Plame’s identity.

    “At a minimum, there appears to be a serious question of disloyalty here. By keeping silent, Messrs. Powell and Armitage let the President take political heat for the case, while also letting Mr. Rove, Mr. Libby and other White House officials twist in the wind for more than two years. We also know that it was the folks in Mr. Powell’s shop–including his former chief of staff Lawrence Wilkerson and intelligence officer Carl Ford Jr.–who did so much to trash John Bolton’s nomination to be Ambassador to the U.N. in 2005. The State Department clique that Mr. Bush tolerated for so long did tremendous damage to his Administration.”

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  193. another poster with many friends with TMJ

    I stated it was one colleague who had it. Your overstatements border on outright lies.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  194. You know, on second thought. You guys are right. Why didn’t I think of it? Palin is far more experienced than Obama or Biden. Is it too late to change my vote? Guess not.

    Here’s hoping America has a great 4 years, and Republicans elect Palin as their nominee.

    I’m right with you guys, continue the fine work.

    Oiram (983921)

  195. DCSCA #188, and so you demonstrate your lack of reading comprehension.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  196. Aericle from American Thinker on troop strength question:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/10/the_troop_strength_question.html

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  197. daleyrocks, I don’t think I agree with Hanson’s conclusions in that piece. But the fact remains that Shinseki was not prophetic, did not have any concrete proposals and that history has shown in fact that it was a combination of time and a change in tactics – coupled with a much smaller short term “surge” in troop strength – that turned around Iraq. None of which Shinseki proposed or had anything to do with.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  198. The whole population of Alaska is three times the size of San Bernardino.

    Wow three times, that’s a little of people.

    Delaware’s population is estimated at just over 853,000, or about 4 times that of San Berdoo. Wow, that’s a little of people.

    And Biden didn’t even govern that many people, he was just representing them…or half of them, since there’s another Senator from Delaware to pick up Biden’s slack.

    Steverino (69d941)

  199. The fact remains that the GOP as a party is in trouble. They need to get their act together and decide how they are going to cope with the changiong times. This last election was a wake-up call. An opportunity to do a lot of soul-searching to know where they began to lose touch. This present situation of blame-game is not what they need. Obama’s election has even made matters worse. He is pulling a lot of conservatives over to the Democrats like Reagan did. He seems to be the Dems’ Reagan. His message of unity is in sharp contrast with most of the polarizing words and actions of some Republican leaders. Consider the GOP advert released with some racially- tinged sound bites, calling Obama a “Magic Negro.” I don’t believe the guy wanted to be racist or anything. My point is that that behaviour reveals one point about the GOP, they don’t have a clue. If they continue on this path, they will give the Dems control for another 16 years. Something is wrong with the GOP and they need to sit together and resolve it. Pointing accusing fingers at Bush is not the way to go.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  200. You know, on second thought. You guys are right. Why didn’t I think of it? Palin is far more experienced than Obama or Biden.

    You can’t even be sarcastic correctly. She actually is more experienced than Obama. And smarter than Biden. Which I realize is damning with faint praise.

    Jim Treacher (592cb4)

  201. love2008, you are again mixing up facts so much that it shows just how your opinions are based on your own confusion, and not on reality.

    Example: “Consider the GOP advert released with some racially- tinged sound bites, calling Obama a “Magic Negro.” ”

    That term was not coined by a Republican. Why do you get basic facts wrong, and use your own utter confusion as the basis for insinuations about others?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  202. — 12/31/2008 @ 1:16 am

    Eric, that is really subtle and funny! What a way to get caught.

    DCS of CA, you’re worldly. Why believe a media caricature? Do pundits do your thinking for you? If you dislike Sarah Palin, it should be tied to something specific. Tina Fey should not be your go-to girl for credibility.

    You know the media refuses to recognize Palin as a reformer and executive. (No wonder Barack went apeshit when she hit the scene.) Best thing McCain ever did… for 2012, a politician whose run is devoid of baggage and backroom deals and powerful family connections.

    Your bias continues:

    “my congressman for a time out of Escondido. Corrupt. Egocentric. Republican. In short, a thief”.

    How then to explain Bernie Madoff? The chickens are surely coming home to roost for your party. Swindled money bundled up for Democratic campaigns. I PRAY that someday we see a complete breakdown and expose’ of the fraud that is George Soros.

    Mr. Kotkin told Politico.com that Democrats should worry about increased scrutiny of hedge funds, especially those run by traders such as George Soros: “They are more big-time backers of the Democrats, and may be exposed in the next turning of this potboiler reality we are now experiencing. It could get a bit scary.”

    http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2008/12/bernard-madoff-democrat.html

    Vermont Neighbor (ceab4f)

  203. “Consider the GOP advert released with some racially- tinged sound bites, calling Obama a “Magic Negro.””

    That term was not coined by a Republican.

    In fact, the term was coined by a man who is the tri-fecta of Liberal goodness. A gay black jew.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  204. SPQR – I do not disagree. I whole lefty myth that he was fired for his courageius more troops stand has been completely exploded. Sanai’s position that people like Wilkerson loyally served because they waited until they left the Administration before stabbing it in the back is just his opinion and not fact as he contends. There is ample evidence that Eilkerson and others were working to undermine Bush’s policies while at the State Department.

    Sanai brought up the treatment of detainee, not me. As we know, Rumsfeld’s initial memo on the subject was in effect for only four months before it was retracted. Blaming Cheney and Rumsfeld for the treatment of detainees is absurd given the facts as we now know them. The arguments about the Geneva Convention are also absurd and at odds with what the Administration actually said, although a fucked up Supreme Court ruling unfortunately now supports them. It’s nice that at the end of the Administration some of the truth is finally coming out instead of the pure lefty spin which has dominated for the past several years. Sanai seems to have guzzled the spin.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  205. Comment by SPQR — 12/31/2008 @ 8:49 am
    That’s the problem with you SPQR, you prefer to pick one phrase you disagree with and use it to discount the whole body of thought in the comment. The issue is not who “coined” the phrase, the issue is the fact that using that in the advert does nothing to help the GOP predicament. Or are you also going to deny that the person that released the cd, Chip Saltman is not a Republican? Or are you among the few who believe that using that advert is a good idea? Do you think the Republican party needs to be doing that right now? Do you disagree with everything I said in my comment, or do you prefer to pick it apart and decide what you want to say against it?

    love2008 (1b037c)

  206. The issue is not who “coined” the phrase, the issue is the fact that using that in the advert does nothing to help the GOP predicament. Or are you also going to deny that the person that released the cd, Chip Saltman is not a Republican?

    It’s not an advert, and Chip Saltsman didn’t release it. It’s one of 41 tracks on a comedy album by Paul Shanklin.

    Pablo (99243e)

  207. In fact, the term was coined by a man who is the tri-fecta of Liberal goodness. A gay black jew.

    Not to mention a semi-regular Patterico commenter.

    Pablo (99243e)

  208. Not to mention a semi-regular Patterico commenter.

    More’s the pity…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  209. It is funny to watch TNJ continue to troll.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  210. There, right there. That is the problem with the GOP. Too proud and arrogant. Now you are going to make the case that the said cd from Chip Saltman is not a GOP-related release. Yes Saltman did not release it, but he distributed it to people in his party. Even some well meaning members of the party are speaking out against it. Keep spinning it guys. What more can anyone expect of you. keep “Playing Politics”.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  211. Still waiting to hear whether Cyrus voted for McCain, a Vietnam war hero and scholar who was critical of the way the early Iraq war was run.

    Karl (b40ee6)

  212. #200 Jim who is being sarcastic? I meant what I said. Continue the fine work your doing for the G.O.P. :)

    Oiram (983921)

  213. Comment by Karl — 12/31/2008 @ 9:37 am

    Actually, I think he did say he did in a comment on this thread in responding to something in the flap over his support of Wilkerson.

    Shanklin CD…
    lovey, it was a Christmas Present sent to other RNC members. And the phrase “Magic Negroe” was used by DE in a column he penned for the LAT, which is where Rush found it, and the rest is history. More people probably heard about David’s column through the Rush Limbaugh Show, than ever read it in the pages of the Times, or on their website.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  214. More people probably heard about David’s column through the Rush Limbaugh Show, than ever read it in the pages of the Times, or on their website.………….. YET WE STILL INSIST ON CALLING THE LA TIMES “MAIN STREAM MEDIA” AND RUSH “A RESULT OF THE MSM LIBERAL BIAS”.

    Oiram (983921)

  215. …and we still call you a recalcitrant Moron.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  216. Karl – Cyrus doesn’t like to answer questions. It’s beneath him. He prefers to make pronouncements. When he sticks around in a discussion he usually gets beaten like a drum.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  217. Hehehehee………. keep it up Another, you look like a rock star……… here that is.

    Oiram (983921)

  218. Comment by Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) — 12/31/2008 @ 9:45 am
    Who knew? Thanks anyway. But that is actually besides my point.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  219. Okay, everyone, let’s make Oiram happy by calling it the Main Stream News Media, or MSNM (MiSNoMer) for short. Maybe, just maybe, Oiram will stop hijacking threads in favor of this nonsense issue.

    Steverino (69d941)

  220. Comment by Oiram — 12/31/2008 @ 9:59 am

    Well, in your Kingdom of the Blind, a one-eyed man would be King; so I would assume, among the tone-deaf, someone who can strike a chord would be a rock-star….Cmajor7th.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  221. This is the last day of the year 2008. 2009 promises to be exciting and dangerous. Predictions anyone? I predict that the second month of 2009 will be february. Just you watch. :)
    You are next. What is your prediction?

    love2008 (1b037c)

  222. My “Kingdom Of The Blind”?

    Our eyes finally opened up Another, it took 8 years in case you haven’t noticed.

    Wonderful chords your playing among your crowd here.

    Sounds great, again keep it up.

    Oiram (983921)

  223. “nonsense issue” thanks Steve.

    Why do you think I keep bringing it up?

    Oiram (983921)

  224. #221 Good prediction love, spot on!

    I might ad that come February, Anti Obamists here are going to have to resort to plans C, D, and E….. and perhaps F.

    “Here” what am I saying? This is just a bouncing board for Hannity, Coulter, Elder, O’Reilly and Rush’s thoughts. They are the ones who will have to go to plans C, D, and E……… all “here” will just follow suit.

    Oiram (983921)

  225. Steverino wrote:

    Delaware’s population is estimated at just over 853,000, or about 4 times that of San Berdoo. Wow, that’s a little of people.

    And Biden didn’t even govern that many people, he was just representing them…or half of them, since there’s another Senator from Delaware to pick up Biden’s slack.

    I knew Delaware; Delaware was a home of mine. And Steve: you don’t know Delaware! :)

    How’d’ja like me channeling Lloyd Bentsen?

    But the fact is that no one governs Delaware. Downstate from New Castle County is mostly rural and beach resort towns, where everybody takes care of themselves, Wilmington is a waste case, a North Philadelphia wannabe, and the surrounding communities are all either working class people getting the Hell out of Wilmington or DuPont and corporate people desperately concerned with staying ahead of their neighbors. What passes for a state government is dominated by the power companies, the out-of-state corporations using Delaware as a tax haven, anyone named DuPont, and half of the Capanos — the ones not in jail, that is.

    The Dana who used to live in Hockessin (3e4784)

  226. I might ad that come February, Anti Obamists here are going to have to resort to plans C, D, and E….. and perhaps F

    Gosh. You’re saying that everything’s in good shape? Bush is leaving the office in good condition for Thuggy?

    Because Nancy Pelosi was supposed to do great things a couple years ago. Her only success though was sinking your party’s self-inflated predictions while racking up approval ratings worse than any US President.

    Obamarx better not piss off the media. He needs those bϊtches now more than ever.

    Vermont Neighbor (ceab4f)

  227. Her only success though was sinking your party’s self-inflated predictions while racking up approval ratings worse than any US President.

    To be fair, she DID make good her promise to take the country in a different direction.

    “Down the Economic Crapper” is, indeed, a different direction than what we had.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  228. Howard Dean’s Neighbor wrote:

    Obamarx better not piss off the media. He needs those bϊtches now more than ever.

    Yeah, like, where else are they going to go? After busily trashing every Republican out there, they can’t veer right, and there’s no one in the Democratic Party that can challenge Teh One.

    The media are like abused girlfriends who keep coming back for more, thinking, “Well, he really, really loves me, and I’m sure he won’t hit me again, especially if I’m really, really nice to him.”

    The cynical Dana (3e4784)

  229. Down the Economic Crapper” is, indeed, a different direction than what we had.

    Kills, don’t it. Btw, good work over at the Delaware tupperware blog.

    Vermont Neighbor (ceab4f)

  230. Dana, vote getter: You’re probably right about the mistreated GF part. I keep thinking how they ordained the Clintons, only to trash them later when a minority came along. The party of convenience.

    Vermont Neighbor (ceab4f)

  231. *bows* I do try. Occasionally my civility and snark join to form a thing of dark beauty…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  232. #226 Gosh. You’re saying that everything’s in good shape? Bush is leaving the office in good condition for Thuggy?

    Gee Vermont sorry you misunderstood.

    Everything is not in good shape, but you will need to resort to other plans to knock Obama down a few pegs. See plan A didn’t work, plan B hasn’t, by February you will be on plans C, D, E and possibly F. That was my prediction as love2008 had requested of us.

    Oiram (983921)

  233. love2008, #205, and your problem is that you take a phrase coined by a liberal Democrat to describe Obama and think that its a reflection only on the GOP when someone who is Republican ( and not even the GOP leadership itself ) repeats it. The problem is called hypocrisy.

    And that’s ignoring the fact that you didn’t even know who coined it, or why, despite the fact that the author regularly appears in these comment threads.

    And yet, I’m supposed to pay any attention to your “thoughts” ?

    SPQR (72771e)

  234. There, right there. That is the problem with the GOP. Too proud and arrogant. Now you are going to make the case that the said cd from Chip Saltman is not a GOP-related release.

    Two things, lovey. One, I simply corrected your inaccurate statement. Two, I am not a Republican, so it would be quite difficult for me to be the problem with the GOP.

    Let’s make it 3, and I’ll repeat myself. It’s Paul Shanklin’s CD, not Chip Saltman’s. Here. Look at it. Whose name do you see there?

    Pablo (99243e)

  235. “nonsense issue” thanks Steve.

    Why do you think I keep bringing it up?

    Offhand, I’d say because you’re a worthless troll who can’t offer any real criticism of Palin, and resort to meaningless statistics, completely ignorant of how badly the same statistics work on Democrats.

    Someone else might say that you’re a petty threadjacking nincompoop who wouldn’t know a valid argument if it bit him on his nether regions, but I’m a bit more polite than that.

    How’d’ja like me channeling Lloyd Bentsen?

    Loved it, Dana, keep up the good work. And you’re right: I don’t know Delaware. I did drive through it one fine day some 10 years ago. Which probably gives me more insight into the state than Oiram has of what it takes to govern Alaska :)

    Steverino (69d941)

  236. I knew I remembered this interview. Wolf Blitzer interviews Rumsfeld and Peter Pace, then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff:

    BLITZER: Here’s what Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, Secretary of State Powell’s then chief of staff, recently said about the decision- making process that resulted in the war. Listen to this.

    (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

    COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON, FMR. SECY. POWELL’S CHIEF OF STAFF: What I saw was a cabal between the vice president of the United States, Richard Cheney, and the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, on critical issues that made decisions that the bureaucracy did not know were being made.

    (END VIDEO CLIP)

    BLITZER: Do you know Colonel Wilkerson?

    RUMSFELD: I don’t believe I’ve ever met him.

    I look at the picture. I don’t recognize him.

    BLITZER: Is he right?

    RUMSFELD: I can’t imagine he was ever in a meeting with the vice president or me or anyone else at a senior level.

    BLITZER: He was the chief of staff of the secretary of state.

    RUMSFELD: Fine. That’s fine.

    But in terms of having firsthand information, I just can’t imagine that he does. And it’s also — the allegation is ridiculous.

    BLITZER: He’s going to be on this program.

    RUMSFELD: Fine.

    BLITZER: Anything you want to say to him?

    RUMSFELD: Well, you’ve been in all these meetings.

    PACE: Yes, that’s the first time I’ve seen the gentleman, on this program.

    He was never in any of the meetings I was in and I was the vice chairman beginning in 1 October, 2001. I was in every meeting with the Joint Chiefs. I was in every meeting with the combatant commanders. I went to the White House multiple times to meet with the National Security council and with the president of the United States.

    I have never seen that colonel.

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0511/20/le.01.html

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  237. Oops, my mistake. I thought Oiram was referring to the other nonsens issue he keeps bringing up. I apologize for the error.

    Oiram, as for why you keep bringing up Rush Limbaugh’s audience and income, I suppose it’s in a vain attempt to tie him into what everyone here refers to as “Mainstream Media”. But if you had two brain cells to rub together, you’d know from the context that when folks here talk of MSM, they clearly mean News media. Rush is commentary, not news. So, to lump him in with the L.A. Times is absurd.

    Steverino (69d941)

  238. The moonbats have good reason to fear Palin. Wonder how they’d handle Palin defeating the re-election bid of The Chosen One in 2012?

    JerryT (e56588)

  239. Comment by Steverino — 12/31/2008 @ 12:46 pm

    Small correction, Steverino.
    Rush is Entertainment, who also does commentary.
    Not bad for a guy who started as an R&R-Top 40, DJ.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  240. #237 …………. what everyone here refers to as “Mainstream Media”

    Exactly Steverino “Everyone Here” Thanks

    Oiram (983921)

  241. #238 Yes JerryT we do fear Palin, oh please don’t run her against Obama. Please don’t, I beg of you.

    I’m so scared.

    Oiram (983921)

  242. Seriously…. please don’t ;)

    Oiram (983921)

  243. Exactly Steverino “Everyone Here” Thanks
    who have overwhelmingly told you that the MSM does not include Talk Radio,
    which you, in your obstinance, reject in favor of your fantasy, and fixation,
    on Rush’s audience numbers and compensation.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  244. Rush is Entertainment, who also does commentary.

    Whatever, nitwit. Lumping him in with the L.A. Times, which you seem wont to do, is moronic. Learn the local jargon here, and act within its constraints. Don’t try to force a definition that really doesn’t need forcing.

    And for an entertainer, Rush sure got under Bill Clinton’s skin, didn’t he?

    Steverino (69d941)

  245. Wilkerson on Mearsheimer and Walt’s study of the Israel lobby:

    Larry Wilkerson, former chief of staff for Secretary of State Colin Powell, says the paper does have flaws. But he has assigned it to his students at George Washington University and the College of William and Mary for discussion.

    “I think it contains a lot of what I call the blinding flashes of the obvious,” Wilkerson says. “But that said, [they are] blinding flashes of the obvious that people whispered in corners, not said out loud at cocktail parties, where someone else could hear you.”

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5353855

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  246. “You can do anything you want, but whatever you do, please, please, don’t throw me in the brier patch.”

    Ropelight (d40bc3)

  247. Comment by Steverino — 12/31/2008 @ 1:06 pm

    I’m sorry, Steverino.
    Were you referring to me as a nitwit?

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  248. My apologies, AD, you and I cross-posted. I was referring to Oiram as a nitwit. (One would think by now everyone would refer to him as such :) .)

    Steverino (69d941)

  249. Thank you for the clarification.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  250. “fantasy, and fixation” is exactly how you come up with MSM being slanted Another.

    We’re you screaming that rhetoric 10 years ago when Clinton had his turn at bat? Or were you o.k. with the MSM then?

    I saw my liberal friends castigating the MSM for reporting the news in the 90′s, thought they needed a lesson as well. Even though we were of course on the same side.

    Oiram (983921)

  251. Steverino…
    An interesting factoid…
    On another thread, I said that mariO probably didn’t even know where to find Rush’s radio show, and he responded that it was on KFI-640AM, which is an L.A. station – and that he listens to Doug McIntyre on 790AM, and misses Laura Ingraham, who got bounced from KRLA-870 in favor of Mike Gallagher.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  252. Hehehehe Steverino, I refer to myself as a nitwit for spending so much time here (about 10% as much as you guys).

    I realize I can’t change your minds, but I think I can help make up your minds.

    Nominate Palin in 2012.

    Oiram (983921)

  253. …….who got bounced from KRLA-870 in favor of Mike Gallagher.

    Thank you Another, I had to get the news second hand (unless I missed it on the other thread).

    So is Dr. Ingraham still on 870 and what time? (no joke)

    Oiram (983921)

  254. I realize I can’t change your minds, but I think I can help make up your minds.

    Well, you’ve certainly helped me make up my mind that you’re a nitwit. That may not have been what you were aiming for.

    I won’t have any say in whether Palin is nominated in 2012, unless she runs on the Libertarian ticket. Frankly, I’m glad you keep your mind focused on her to the exclusion of all other Republicans.

    AD, I saw his post and recognized the stations. I grew up in Seal Beach, and I’m working in Burbank of late. 790 used to host Dodger games and Dodger Talk with Bud Furillo (in the early 70s, the Dodgers were on KFI). I’m even old enough to remember when Hudson & Landry were on the air.

    Since I don’t listen to radio at all these days, much less talk radio, I have no idea who’s show is on which station.

    Steverino (69d941)

  255. Yes, sometimes it is so nice to get away from all of the made-up rancor…
    Just sitting here listening to some great sounds on KJAZZ-88.1FM – they really went overboard today on Freddie Hubbard, comemmorating his death yesterday – another jazz great gone.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  256. #254 Get me right here Steverino. I’ve decided on putting my faith in Obama and America having a great 4 years.

    My fear yesterday, which I’ve decided to put aside, was that Republicans would put up Palin against Obama (bad 4 years) instead of a candidate I could get behind, Republican or Libertarian for that matter.

    Burbank eh? My kind of town.

    Bud Furillo!! (Thanks for the recognition of our stations here). I haven’t heard that name in ages. Dodgers are back on 790 (I think).

    Here’s Hoping the Dodgers can bring the title back to L.A. after 21 years.

    Oiram (983921)

  257. Happy New Year everyone.

    Have some hope that your wrong about Obama’s Administration. That would be good for America last time I checked.

    Peace to all

    Oiram (983921)

  258. My fear yesterday, which I’ve decided to put aside, was that Republicans would put up Palin against Obama (bad 4 years) instead of a candidate I could get behind, Republican or Libertarian for that matter.

    I don’t think the Republicans would nominate Palin, but then again, I don’t think she’s as bad as you seem to.

    Burbank eh? My kind of town

    The area around the Equestrian Center is nice, and the Media District is decent. Unfortunately, I’m stuck working in the toilet that surrounds the airport. But at least I can go to USA Ribs for lunch.

    Burbank’s okay compared to the rest of The Valley, but it’s way too hot here in the summer.

    Steverino (69d941)

  259. Damn, those condos there aren’t bad, Steverino. Next to the airport. The faux Cape Cod look. Not that bad.

    A guy from Queensryche used to live there. And the couple who started Animotion.

    Vermont Neighbor (ceab4f)

  260. #236 daleyrocks:

    I knew I remembered this interview.

    Oh, that shithead. No wonder I didn’t recognize Wilkerson by name-he’s been a useless waste of skin for a long time.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  261. The left really hates Palin, don’t they?

    What a pack of children.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  262. EW1 – Heh! Cyrus isn’t going to be happy with you, but according to him, Wilkerson has been there and done that. Except according to the people who were actually there and did it, e.g. Rumsfeld and Pace, he wasn’t, and Wilkerson admits it in the next segment.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  263. #262 daleyrocks:

    according to him,

    Cyrus is a blowhard, and the only thing worse than him wasting electrons blowing his own horn is his tooting one on somebody elses behalf.

    Met Pace at a rally a few years ago. I don’t typically think of myself as easily impressed~but he did.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  264. I just read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. I didn’t know, but Colin Powell is one of the Powells of Jamaica–a powerful family there.

    Just a bit of trivia and a Happy New Year.

    Carry on.

    Patricia (89cb84)

  265. Comment by Pablo — 12/31/2008 @ 12:38 pm
    Ho, Pablo. I was speaking in general terms to most of the Republican posters here. Wasn’t refer to you. You are many things but “proud” and “arrogant” you ain’t. Trust me. I know that. Sorry for the mix up.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  266. Steverino wrote:

    Loved it, Dana, keep up the good work. And you’re right: I don’t know Delaware. I did drive through it one fine day some 10 years ago. Which probably gives me more insight into the state than Oiram has of what it takes to govern Alaska :)

    Well, let me point out the name used: The Dana who used to live in Hockessin, with the emphasis on the past tense. (Wonder if I can use an emphasis mark in the name box; I think I’ll try, to see if it works.) I lived in Hockessin, Delaware — a suburb of Wilmington — for two years, but I got to know more of my neighbors in Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania, in two weeks here than I did in two years in the First State.

    The Dana who used to live in Hockessin (556f76)

  267. The reversed Mario wrote, once again:

    I’m so scared (of Sarah Palin).

    But you’ve still been unable to tell us why you’re so scared.

    Imagine if you will that it’s January 20, 2013, and former Governor Sarah Palin has just been inaugurated as the 45th President of the United States. Just what is it you think that she’d do, or even fail to do, as president that scares you so?

    I keep scratching with this question, hoping to dig down, to find an actually intelligent response. My hope is that somewhere, somehow, you have formulated a logical reason, one you can put into words, which leads you to have such great fear of her as president.

    Now, should you wish to concede that it isn’t really fear of her performance that you have, but simply a great personal distaste for the idea of her as president, I could understand; I had the same feeling about the junior Senator from New York as a possible president.

    The inquisitive and very, VERY persistant Dana (556f76)

  268. The inquisitive and very, VERY persistant Dana – I think it’s actually the vagina. We’ve seen how Democrats love to brat about how intolerant Republicans are, but example after example proves that the Democrats, the party of identity politics, are actually the intolerant party. They continue to foster sexism, racial divisions, homophobia, restrict free speech, promote class warfare, not tradional feel good unity type policies you would ecpect from people who claim to be tolerant.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  269. bray not brat

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  270. Mr Rocks: the correction made was unnecessary; it works either way! :)

    The Dana who had his question answered! (556f76)

  271. #244– I have met Rush Limbaugh. I even interviewed for a position with his ‘EIB’ group when it was in Manhattan atop the imaginary ‘EIB Building’(aka Penn Station.)

    The very first point made by his staff– and himself– is that he is an entertainer, and uses topics of the day as fuel for his schtick. Lending any deeper credence to Limbaugh is a fool’s errand and those who do have had him laughing all the way to the bank and to his pushers. Like any good carnival barker, his job is to draw an audience, and that he does– clowns et al.

    Also, for those who care, Rush stinks. Literally.first impressions last and his lingered most assuredly. He smelled. Very, very bad BO. (I allowed it was due to being parked in a studio chair for 3 hours on radio and it was in August but a little Right Guard goes a long way.) Quite the stinko back then. Nice guy off mike, out of ‘character,’ but, man. No doubt some roll on might have saved at one of his several marriages.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  272. #32- Lack of attacks?

    That’s ‘Challenger Logic.’

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  273. #191- It should agree 100%. I personally added that to Wikipedia several years ago.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  274. #195 As the Naval aviator who together with “Irish” Driscoll became aces over North Vietnam, he was a hero of mine.

    Like I said- a low threshold for heroes.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  275. #199– The GOP shouldn’t change one iota. A philosophy of life with liberty and justice for all, circa 1957, suits them just fine.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  276. #274, repeating your inanity only confirms that you can’t read simple english sentences.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  277. Hmm. Why don’t you add the rest of your story to Wikipedia now, DCSA? The Wikipedia entry was missing some other aspects of your WvB story.

    And I’m not implying I don’t believe you. But we have a had a bumper crop of bragging liars here recently. I’m sure you aren’t one of them (and if you sense snark, you are wrong).

    I know quite a bit about the old space program, so I am interested in you updating that page. I’ll check Wikipedia tomorrow to see.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  278. #277- What’s to add? They edited it down once before. I was at Allegheny and Von Braun stayed literally across the hall for 3 or 4 days. Long story as to why but I traded him a foam pillow for a feather pillow (hence the first hand allergy knowledge) and a signature in one of his books.

    But if you have an interest in the space program of that era I will tell you he treated about 15 of us to a 90 minute talk in a hall foyer perched on an old wooden chair in shirt sleeves and loosened tie about spaceflight, rocketry and spirituality.

    It was an amazing experience. He was trying to light young minds and he was dead a few years later. Talked about and answered every question– from meeting Hitler to nuclear rocket engines, the paint patterns on his rockets and why he held such a deep faith in God.

    It remains one of the high points of my life.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  279. #276- “You may very well think that. I could not possibly comment.” — Francis Urquhart (Ian Richardson) ‘House Of Cards’ BBC TV, 1991

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  280. #191– I must say, its very ‘Cheney-esque’ having your own quote quoted back to you. I shudda ‘leaked’ that to the NY Times, not Wikipedia.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  281. #181– Good engineers love to tinker. What’s your excuse?

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  282. #267 I keep scratching with this question, hoping to dig down, to find an actually intelligent response. My hope is that somewhere, somehow, you have formulated a logical reason, one you can put into words, which leads you to have such great fear of her as president.

    I’ll repeat:

    Dana you are right, not afraid of Palin anymore, she’s great. Please elect her to run against Obama in 2012. May the best person win.

    Oiram (983921)

  283. “Dana you are right, not afraid of Palin anymore”

    OK Oiram, you’re begging the question. Why were you afraid of Palin initially?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  284. Dana you are right, not afraid of Palin anymore, she’s great.

    Snark and sarcasm only serve to highlight that you actually have nothing resembling a logical reason.

    “Olbermann told me so” doesn’t count, just so you know…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  285. Your right Scott, you really are. Let me help you:

    Would you like me to print out the bumper stickers for you?

    Palin 2012
    Here’s hoping America has a really bad 4 years!

    Oiram (983921)

  286. Hmmm…

    “#277- What’s to add? They edited it down once before.”

    Well, your own experiences, for one thing. And I’m having trouble going through the Wikipedia history list to find your entry and responses.

    I would try again to edit, truly.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  287. Um. And you also had a job interview with Rush Limbaugh, as well?

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  288. Eric – And he’s also an international iol baron, going places and reaching heights that DRJ couldn’t.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  289. Would you like me to print out the bumper stickers for you?

    I find that infinately less offensive that the t-shirts and bumper-stickers for Palin being a “MILP”…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  290. oil

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  291. Would you like me to print out the bumper stickers for you?

    I find that infinately less offensive that the t-shirts and bumper-stickers for Palin being a “MILP”…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  292. The reversed mariO wrote:

    Dana you are right, not afraid of Palin anymore, she’s great. Please elect her to run against Obama in 2012. May the best person win.

    In that case, Sarah Palin will be inaugurated on January 20, 2013! :)

    Now, it might be true that Barack Hussein Obama is a better candidate, but he ain’t the better person.

    The hopeful Dana (556f76)

  293. I’m also surprised that Allegheny College didn’t put WvB up in a B&B or hotel, since he was a VIP.

    When I interviewed for a job there five years ago, they did that for me, and I was no kind of VIP.

    I’m not saying that these things didn’t happen to you. But keep in mind that there have been several trolls on this site, making all kind of strangely self-referential claims.

    So please go edit Wikipedia again. It’ll help me trace down your original entry, and the discussion associated with it—there is usually some kind of explanation for editing down entries.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  294. #292 Your so right Dana :)

    Get to work electing Palin!! :) :) :)

    Oiram (983921)

  295. MILP? A mother I’d like for President? :)

    The curious Dana (556f76)

  296. And, DCSCA…

    I’m happy to contact a bunch of my friends from aerospace who also knew WvB to support you regarding the Wikipedia business, Cheneyesque or not.

    Since you had such a personal experience, it ought to be in Wikipedia.

    I’ll look again tomorrow at the WvB entry to see what kind of luck you have been having.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  297. Dear Curious Dana: thanks for the laugh about MILP.

    All the VPILF stuff I had to read during the election—from the tolerant, nonsexist Left—made me pretty irritable.

    If you don’t like someone’s policies, debate that. And don’t vote for them. But the sexism (again, from the Left) was palpable. But I shouldn’t have been surprised. The MSM were dealing HRC disrespect of a different kind before, as well.

    Hope and Change that sure didn’t turn out to be different from business as usual.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  298. So please go edit Wikipedia again. It’ll help me trace down your original entry, and the discussion associated with it—there is usually some kind of explanation for editing down entries.

    heh

    Vermont Neighbor (ceab4f)

  299. Comment by The curious Dana — 1/2/2009 @ 9:22 am

    Not quite…

    Mother I’d Like to Punch.

    And people wonder why I fall over laughing and have trouble breathing when I hear the Left referred to as the party of tolerance.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  300. I have met Rush Limbaugh. I even interviewed for a position with his ‘EIB’ group

    I was there too. (ABC and PLJ?) Met Rush in his studio. No smell. But maybe your particular day was different. Maybe your superiority made him so nervous, he broke into a sweat.

    Vermont Neighbor (ceab4f)

  301. #299 “The Left…….”

    Like all of us on the left think a Mother should be punched.

    That’s as retarded as thinking everyone on the right is waiting for the Apocalypse and the second coming of Christ.

    Same percentage who believe on that on the right believe Palin should be punched on the left.

    Oiram (983921)

  302. Moiron should never use the phrase “retarded” in any of his posts – because it’s blatantly unfair to actual mentally disabled people to be associated with him.

    there is usually some kind of explanation for editing down entries.

    Yeah, there usually is – gee, whatever could the reason be?

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  303. Moiron, we only believe that you were dropped on your head continually as a child, owing to your amazing dunderheadedness on all issues. And be careful about using the word retarded in your posts – mentally disabled people wouldn’t care to be associated with your inane postings.

    there is usually some kind of explanation for editing down entries.

    Yeah, there usually is – gee, whatever could the reason be?

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  304. My apologies for the double posting.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  305. #302 and #303 Dmac resorting to name calling.

    Cool.

    True Colors

    Oiram (983921)

  306. God ! I missed this devastating riposte from the great one:

    #176- Of course you were. Did I mention my meetings with Von Braun? Somehow, your name never came up.

    Comment by DCSCA

    This is an anonymous commenter on a blog while my biography is posted on my blog for all to see. It’s interesting to witness the fantasy world of trolls sometimes.

    Of course, it had nothing to do with the subject of my comment, which was why the space flight center was moved from Cape Canaveral to Texas.

    Typical

    Mike K (531ff4)

  307. Hey Dmac, maybe the guy really did go to Allegheny College and meet von Braun. And if so, he ought to write more in the Wikipedia entry.

    I’ve already sent some of this information to Rand Simberg and the Space Mafia (transterrestrial.com). That guy knows everything, and if he doesn’t know something, he knows someone who does.

    And Mario? You used the word “retarded” to describe people who don’t agree with you, and you complain about Dmac’s verbal fencing? Mind you, I don’t think the Apocalypse is imminent, but still…

    Here in the New Year, let’s see some…hope and change…with regarding to this kind of thing.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  308. Oiram – You’re still dodging the question of why you were initially afraid of Palin.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  309. #293- Eric:

    Clearly truth has touched a conservative nerve. Liars envy most likely.

    I’ll be kind to you and enlighten a lesser as anyone making the desperate journey up to Meadville, Pennsylvania for employment, (assuming you’re telling the truth) in the snow belt near Erie no less– is a bit of a Drop-Forged-Channel-Lock-Tool by nature. (That should ring a bell if you’re at all familiar with the region.) I’ll have to drop a note to the alumni association discouraging wasting donated dollars considering hiring conservatives at a Methodist college– but then security guards did have high turnover.

    At the time, Allegheny had a program in place called ‘Colloquy.’ It was a hold over from the 60′s I suspect– no doubt it was terminated in the Reagan era. The program invited professionals (you’ve heard of them, right?) from many walks of life to meet with students as they prepared for planning careers in life and so on. The caveat was they had to live with the students for several days to enhance the experience. If memory serves, Dick Thornburgh, who was then mayor of Pittsburgh I believe, participated along with judges, doctors, and so on… even a Steeler of the era was part of it as was Von Braun, who was the guest speaker. The guy running the program lived across the hall and had to give up his room for Von Braun, hence the experience.

    Since you pose as ‘knowledgeable’ in this area, I wont bring up my encounter with the Apollo 11 crew at the U.S. Embassy in London in October, 1969. Of course, you can funnel info to dweebs posing as ‘experts’ on space to see if they were really there then… or watch Fox News to confirm they never made the trip in the first place.

    Here’s some fresh news for you— sale on Cheetos at the Piggly-Wiggly! Ask your Mom to pick you up a fresh bag or two — then air out the basement.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  310. That’s as retarded as thinking everyone on the right is waiting for the Apocalypse and the second coming of Christ.

    Comment by Oiram — 1/2/2009 @ 9:48 am
    I believe in the second coming of Christ, Oiram. Does that mean I am retarded? :)

    love2008 who wants a new name for '09 (1b037c)

  311. #307- I suspect I know more.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  312. #307 Wow that dyslexia runs rampant in this room, explains a lot really.

    I referred to what I think is a retarded way of thinking. Assuming that the end of times have to come.
    I kind of figured you have sense enough to know that the apocalypse isn’t imminent, that was my point. A small number of Republicans feel that way, but many on the left make it seem that all do, hence my need to put Scott’s comment #299 in perspective.

    Oiram (983921)

  313. #306. Now hold on. DCSCA was a student at Allegheny College, supposedly, with WvB—a featured speaker—staying in the dorms across the hall?

    And he is having high level discussions the one of the architects of the Apollo program?

    I’m sorry, DCSCA. I’m starting to doubt the veracity of your comments, which sounded much more like bragging than fact. “Your name didn’t come up,” in particular. I’m disappointed.

    Like I wrote, please work on that Wikipedia post. If all this did happen to you while you were a student at Allegheny College, your recollections are of historical interest. If you are making all this up and playing troll games, shame on you.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  314. #308 daley, I’m not dodging.

    Go ahead, I give my blessing. Vote for Palin in 2012.

    Oiram (983921)

  315. #286- You seem a bit obsessive on this. Accept it as factual. You’ll digest the Cheetos easier.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  316. #306- “You may very well think that. I could not possibly comment.” — Francis Urquhart (Ian Richardson) House Of Cards, BBC TV, 1991

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  317. They were afraid of Palin because she put Juggy in perspective. I do not want her for President, anymore than I want him, because neither is good enough. Not now and not in 2012. Juggy had the edge in that he appealed to the “centrists”. He is both a top and a bottom. He would be in the center of the mancrush sandwich.

    nk (d08690)

  318. #300- He really smelled. It was quite embarassing. But a surprisingly nice fellow out of character with his bluster turned off. A savvy entertainer and marketer for sure. W.C. Fields would be proud.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  319. “#308 daley, I’m not dodging.”

    You’re just not answering instead, Oiram?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  320. I wont bring up my encounter with the Apollo 11 crew at the U.S. Embassy in London in October, 1969

    My old high school girlfriend worked on the Apollo life systems. She sent me a Christmas card of her in the module one year. Tell us your real name. Maybe she knows you.

    Trolls fantasy lives. Walter Mitty would die of envy.

    Mike K (f89cb3)

  321. #287- Um, yes, the Limbaugh meeting is fact. Facts seem to stun you. A real stinko. Very poor hygiene which may explain, in part, the many marriages, although he was carrying much more weight at the time. Rather than pushing CompUServe at the time, he should have had Right Guard as a sponsor. I’ll allow that he’s a surprisingly nice fellow, out of character, with the bluster switched off. A superb marketer and carnival barker. He made the most of his talents.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  322. Patterico,

    Please take the site-comments off call waiting. I know you have an Instalanche but having it maybe crash is better than maqking it crash in advance.

    nk (d08690)

  323. #319, Daley, if I tell you I approve of your decision to nominate Palin in ’12………. why should I try to change your mind?

    I think she’s a swell candidate.

    Oiram (983921)

  324. #319, Daley, if I tell you I approve of your decision to nominate Palin in ‘12………. why should I try to change your mind?

    I think she’s a swell candidate.

    Comment by Oiram — 1/2/2009 @ 1:39 pm

    How about “Because you’re dodging an old question you have NEVER answered, just like the snivilling little weasel you are”. Is that a to-the-point response for ya?

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  325. You know, all this time I thought “Forrest Gump” was a fictional character…
    and now, he is among us.

    I mean, how cool is that?

    AD (58f7b4)

  326. Comment by DCSCA — 1/2/2009 @ 1:00 pm

    Regarding your interview. You weren’t hired. Proving Rush is an excellent judge of character.

    I’m sure if we want any good ol’ Jeff Christie stories, Justin Levine will stop by and fill us in. You sound like a guy who worked in catering, handled some interesting events and maybe eavesdropped while clearing salad plates for the main course. Learned much along the way?

    Vermont Neighbor (ceab4f)

  327. ##313 “If you are making all this up and playing troll games, shame on you.”

    I’m secure in the veracity of my posts. Truth cuts deep, doesn’t it. FYI, sale on Fritos, too. Better hurry!

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  328. #320– Block 1, no doubt. Does she still carry guilt shoddy workmanship that helped kill the 204 crew? Jeez.

    FYI, Grovesnor Square. It was a stellar experience.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  329. #324 “Sniveling Little Weasel?”

    How sad Scott :(, you finally convince an Obamite that Palin is the correct choice for the RNC in 2012 and that’s how you treat him?

    Oh well

    Oiram (983921)

  330. #313- Reactionary disappointment seems to be a common thread in your posts. Guess that’s why you didnt get the Gator gig. Hurry down to that Piggly-Wiggly… sale ends soon on those Cheetos so dont be disappointed again.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  331. Reactionary disappointment seems to be a common thread in your posts.

    …said the fraudulent gnat who refuses to prove his veracity. Looks like a run on Jergens for the poor lad is at hand.

    302 and #303 Dmac resorting to name calling. Cool.

    Moiron once again not answering a direct question in response to his own prior statement, which he now refuses to acknowledge, thereby demonstrating the accuracy of his new Trolly name. Cool.

    Moiron, are you afraid of the VeeJay? Ever kissed a girl?

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  332. Wow. Pretty hostile. It makes you sound more honest, and not at all like you are not being entirely truthful.

    For the record, Allegheny College is a well respected small liberal arts institution. Many fine institutions are located in less than prime areas.

    I don’t know why you are being so rude; I haven’t been rude to you. I had hoped you weren’t just a rude troll.

    Again, if you were actually there, post some additional data to Wikipedia.

    Eric Blair (a69124)

  333. Wow. What a great series of posts to which to return.

    First, DCSCA, I have not been rude to you, though you certainly have acted in a highly immature fashion in response to me. Very unfortunate, especially with all the recent trolls on this blog.

    If you have actually done the things you said, great. I have repeatedly written that. Your response is not one that I would associate with supporting that, however. Why all the anger?

    But unlike you, my response to your attempt to insult me is not to look for a fight. Just remember: you first made the claim that you had inside information on WvB. Then you claimed that you wrote the original Wikipedia entry that listed some of the things you had written. When I asked about you updating it, you started to get irritable. Then you claimed to have met Rush Limbaugh and such. And starting slinging fairly snotty comments (such as another commenter’s name not coming up during “my many meetings with Werner von Braun..“)

    All of these things could be true. Along with your Allegheny College story. I have always said that. What I went on to say was that, if you aren’t telling the truth, it is shameful.

    Your responses have been quite trollish, and extremely immature for a man or woman in your 50s or even older, as I read your other posts.

    So please stop acting like a troll. And seriously, if you do have more information on WvB, you should update the Wikipedia page. The information you say you have is of historical value. And I do have friends who can help you if people at Wikipedia are giving you trouble. Sometimes, the Wikipedia process can be irritating.

    I rather enjoyed my trip to Allegheny College, and the people I met there. I have taught at two other small liberal arts colleges, and I admire the kinds of graduates they produce. Allegheny is no exception. I would like to think that you normally better display their characteristics of good humor and civility.

    How about less insulting and such for the New Year?

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  334. Sigh, Dmac. I’m really not interested in more trollish nonsense. If the guy is on the level, cool. If he isn’t, whatever. His actions have certainly been trollish.

    In fact, that person was the one who originally wrote:

    “… It’s the ignorant masses who cling to creationism and the like that lace the base of conservativism which raises alarm. The past 30 years of conservativism has championed ignorance over intellect, celebrated criminality over compentence and hailed the achievements of NASCAR over NASA….”

    Intellectual, perhaps. But without spell check, apparently.

    So yes, that poster is just here to snipe and play games, and be snobbish.

    More power to him or her. I hope that the person is telling the truth, and does update the Wikipedia page. We’ll see.

    If this kind of thing continues, the invective will go too far, and then buh-bye. I would rather have discussions than fights.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  335. Some trouble posting using the evil BlackBerry. Apologies, folks.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  336. Eric – You just don’t understand. DCSCA doesn’t normally muck around with “lessers” such as yourself.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  337. #333– Of course you have and it’s on display. But that’s neither here nor there. Rude is in the eye of the beholder. As I said, ‘A drop-forged-Channel-Lock-Tool.’ Clearly that went over your head. Thanks for confirming. But if you want rude schtick, pause and look down at your lap. Behold! Another conservative disappointment.

    Accept the fact I won’t waste time posting falsehoods for Cheeto chompers to chew on. I’m sure your contacts will confirm my truths, if they’re in the know. And for God’s sake, stop sourcing Wikipedia. It’s betrays laziness. And Wernher is spelled it with a ‘h’…

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  338. Um. You really are being overly rude. It doesn’t make you seem more honest. But as I say, why does it matter so much to you?

    And if insult is in the eye of the beholder, you certainly have a very, very sensitive eye, based on your responses.

    Why not move on to another topic? Either you are for real, or you aren’t. It’s interesting you have no interest in demonstrating your honesty, other than by bombast. In fact, that strategy sounds familiar.

    But please. Continue to be rude. Eventually, you will go too far, and get banned, and things will be quieter and more interesting (and if you posted on factual issues instead of silly and immature insults, you could be part of that interesting environment).

    Oh, and one more thing? I really, truly wouldn’t criticize others for spelling errors. It is quite petty, and more than a little hypocritical, coming from you.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  339. #331- Fradulent Gnat? Sounds like a David Copperfield character. Kudos for creativity. ‘ll hve to borrow that one for an upcoming project.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  340. #326- Yes, it would have been an ill fit, indeed. I disagreed with the premise of his schtick. And I bathe.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  341. Eric, I fear we are feeding a troll. He is long on bombast and short of detail. Or she. Although the tone sounds male, young male. I don’t think it rings true.

    A lot of colleges hold these celebrity seminar things. When I was in medical school, we had Gerhard Piel, publisher of Scientific American, and Dr Spock. Both were left wingers and both were not familiar enough for me to make the sort of comments the troll has made even though I was the student body president who had invited them.

    No, I think we have a Walter Mitty.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  342. The District of Columbia Society for Creative Anachronism is not important. The Juggy-eared Chicago Machine hack who will be moving to the District of Columbia is a serious problem for us to concern ourselves with. I hear his mother-in-law will be moving into the White House. If he follows the pattern of black fathers in America he will be moving into the Blair House and leave behind three generations of black females without a man in the house.

    Have I told you before how much I detest Obama and how much the thought of him as President makes my skin crawl?

    nk (d08690)

  343. #338– It doesnt matter to me. But clearly it does to you– hence your probing and I took the time to respond. If I were a conservative I’d bill you by the word.

    I don’t waste time posting lies. Little point. But clearly you’ve had expereince in that arena.

    I accept your concession of defeat. However, as you’ve presented yourself as a supposed ‘educator’ who has, “…taught at two other small liberal arts colleges, and I admire the kinds of graduates they produce…” it might be wise to stop using Wikipedia as a reference, especially if you’re seeking the security of tenure. Little wonder Allegheny passed on you if you brought that up. I wouldn’t want my kids instructed by someone who openly uses that for as an education tool. And for God’s sake, sniping over typos on blog posts. Yeah… ‘drop-forged’ for sure.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  344. Hi Dr. K. I don’t care, either way. I actually think the person is genuine—there are some YouTube videos of STS-related stuff under that moniker. And not a kid.

    But, truthful about WvB or not, this person just wants to fight and snark and such. Which is too bad. I have enjoyed reading and thinking about the space program since I was a boy. I thought that might be common ground. Whatever.

    When I was at UCLA, we had Steve Martin on campus, when he was in his “wild and crazy” period. As a nineteen year old, I was surprised that he didn’t want to act that way offstage.

    The most interesting person was the late and much missed Richard Feynman. What a character!

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  345. This DCSCA is starting to use patterns of insult that have been through here before, maybe about a year ago, maybe less.
    And Yes, he is definitely another troll, who I think I will refer to as “Woody” as from Forrest.

    AD (58f7b4)

  346. Hi Eric,
    Happy New Year to you!

    (And pssssst . . . don’t feed the trolls!)

    Bradley J. Fikes (0ea407)

  347. Accept the fact I won’t waste time posting falsehoods

    Translation – I have nothing.

    I accept your concession of defeat.

    Translation: Since I have nothing, I declare victory in lieu of my lack of evidence.

    Which reminds me of one of my favorite scenes from The Simpsons, with Phil Hartman as the voice of the sleazy lawyer, Lionel Hutz:

    Judge: “Mr. Hutz, do you have any actual evidence?”

    Hutz: “I have conjecture and heresay, your Honor – those are kinds of evidence.”

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  348. #341- You are in error. Hence, a conservative.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  349. #344- YouTube, too? Yes, YouTube, too. Follow the yellow click road.

    My, you are a desperate detective, arent you. Odd characteristic for an educator. Ahhh, Japanese launch. Yes, the press gallery shaked, rattled and rolled on that one.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  350. #347– “For God’s sake, Jamie, give your brain a chance.”– Battle Of Britain, reel 1, 1969

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  351. Repetitive incoherence remains incoherent, DCSCA. 0+0= your IQ.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  352. #345– Truth as insult. My. The conservative mind is truly a blunder to behold.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  353. #351– Eventually, most animals learn. Or evolve. There’s a treat in it for you.

    Again, 1+1=2, not 11.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  354. Eric, I think he is a fantasist. With these obscure comments, as though we are supposed to get the message, it is looking a bit pathological.

    Anyway, I have other things to do. I will take your advice, Bradley.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  355. #341- I ‘Mitty’ you. Perhaps you were just a weak student body president. Speculation on my part, open to retort. Our people were invited by department heads.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  356. #326- Yes, it would have been an ill fit, indeed. I disagreed with the premise of his schtick. And I bathe.

    Comment by DCSCA — 1/2/2009 @ 4:49 pm

    Yet there you were, hat in hand looking for a job. Ready to turn hypocrite and ignore someone’s body odor. All for 10 bucks an hour.

    And you were still turned away.

    Your typos are horrendous. And nobody on this site uses Cheeto as a derogatory word. Your fakery is transparent.

    Vermont Neighbor (ceab4f)

  357. Sigh. Just another troll. And I think AD is onto something.

    It’s too bad. Again, I had hoped to have some interesting discussions about space issues.

    Instead, more insults. So again, just another troll, looking for fights and insulting willy-nilly—yet insisting that other people insulted him or her first.

    So it will either go away, or grow more bold/rude and eventually get banned for going over the top with insults—just like the last batch.

    Still, I wish it wouldn’t happen.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  358. This guy is one meal short of a combo platter.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  359. The only space Woody can relate to is the empty galaxy that resides between its’ ears.

    AD (b82d62)

  360. #356- Agreed. Korean Komputers Krappy Keyboard. Whoops! See!

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  361. #357- ‘it’? Cousin, that’s rude.

    I doubt you could add much cogency to any discussion on space operations, manned or unmanned, especially with Wikipedia as your guide. I got more out of Tom Hanks than anything I’ve seen posted by you on the subject- and we just talked ‘Aurora/Revell.’

    Should you get on console and/or ever chance talk to some crews on orbit, we may have some basis for exchange. Otherwise, six-two-and-even, over and out.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  362. I hope so, troll. But something tells me that you will continue to post your rude comments and lies.

    Please prove me wrong.

    Or go insult Patterico. It pays off so well.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  363. This comment thread is fascinating. A scientific, psychological, political soap opera in virtual reality.

    So, not to miss out, may I mention that DCSCA insults a poster here for referring to Wikipedia (while also claiming to author there). Meanwhile, all-knowing military expert Lawrence Wilkerson (subject of this thread) assigns to his students the execrable Isreal Lobby “study” by Walt and Mearsheimer. At George Washington and William and Mary. So much for good “liberal” arts education. Save a couple hundred grand and read archive copies of Der Sturmer or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Oh well, I’m sure he values NASA over NASCAR, so his judgement is superior to mine.

    carlitos (34f76e)

  364. #354- “…I think he is a fantasist. With these obscure comments, as though we are supposed to get the message…”

    Obscure to conservatives perhaps. For 30 years conservatism has championed ignorance over intellect, celebrated criminality over competence and hailed the achievements of NASCAR over NASA. That era is thankfully dead.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  365. DCSCA criticizes a poster here for citing Wikipedia.

    Meanwhile, Lawrence Wilkerson (the subject of this thread) assigns to his students at William and Mary and George Washington University The Israel Lobby, by Walt and Mearsheimer.

    I presume that they both don’t enjoy NASCAR, though.

    carlitos (34f76e)

  366. ugh. comments delay thing again – sorry.

    carlitos (34f76e)

  367. #356- It worked out for the best. I went to CBS. And that’s the way it is.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  368. I have never claimed that Wikipedia is a great source, though it is certainly a convenient starting place to look at things. But all the sneering about it is…um…a bit odd, considering the poster started all this by claiming to have added to a Wikipedia article.

    Yeah, I know; this is all about nastiness and snark, not fact or consistency. And who is doing all the insulting now? Incidentally, there have been plenty of female posters with this poster’s level of bile; “she or he” would work as well.

    Also, the poster is repeating the lines from earlier in this thread (as well as repeating insults on other threads).

    Sigh. It (whoops, he or she, I mean) is just here to fight. Again, I am not interested in trading insults or fighting. I have tried to engage this poster in polite conversation, and the indeed, the result is available for everyone to read.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  369. “I have tried to engage this poster in polite conversation, and the indeed, the result is available for everyone to read.”

    You have not. And yes, it all is. Again, truth.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  370. #356- It worked out for the best. I went to CBS. And that’s the way it is.

    Now you’re kidding… or digging a hole. CBS and its massive layoffs? CBS? Chicago, Seattle, dozens of stations and cities. Legends and little guys, all pink slipped. Good luck with that. Seriously. Good luck. Now I understand why you log in here to say asinine stuff. Blowing off steam is better done with strangers than bosses.

    Vermont Neighbor (ceab4f)

  371. #369. Wow. Patterico, or DRJ, I leave it to you.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  372. #362– ‘It?’ ‘Troll?’ ‘Lies?’ ‘Claiming?’ Terms you seem quite at ease bantering my way. Polite conversation? As I said, rude. Case closed.

    Accept the fact you’re dealing with an honest sort who posts in truth from both chanced and earned experiences.

    Clearly you’re down to the baiting dregs. And your frustrations show. Give it a rest.

    Patterico is a genuine first class package in a bulk-rate virtual world. He caught the deep-seated fear and cutting pain, as interpreted and posted by this writer, experienced by the Pellicano victims and honored those victims, not me, by elevating my humble interpretation of that horror it to a separate posting for others to read and absorb.

    I remain personally appreciative of that and have expressed that to him. I’m sure at least one of those who suffered at Pellicano’s hand is as well.

    As for Wikipedia, I’d reference you to your own posting, #191, in which you introduce Wikipedia into the thread; a decided down grade from first class to coach. And a subtle implication that my posted experience was ‘borrowed’ from that site. A ‘lazy’ effort at trying to debunk a truth, especially from a poster who claims to be an ‘educator,’ to be sure. It just happens that you quoted my own words back to me which remains a great Cheney-esque source of amusement.

    Now repeat after me: 1 + 1 = 2, not 11.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  373. #370- I never kid about CBS. And I saw what ‘Tisching’ did first hand. 66% of the CBS work force was layed of by 1990.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  374. #368– see #372.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  375. Now repeat after me: 1 + 1 = 2, not 11.

    Well, this one is awfully proud of having mastered first grade mathematics. And like a first grader, he has the annoying need to demonstrate his new grasp of addition to everyone he meets. God help us when he learns multiplication. “5 x 5 = 25, not 55! Woo hoo! In your face, bitches!” I can see it now.

    Pablo (99243e)

  376. Accept the fact you’re dealing with an honest sort

    No, the fact is you don’t know shit from shinola about anything!

    As I mentioned in an earlier thread, the folks who put a spacecraft on Ceres generally have a much higher regard for the technical merits of NASCAR than you display, furthermore, they are on the way to Pluto, and you are already out there.

    On every single subject that you have attempted to opine upon, you have revealed yourself after a few sentences to be a blithering idiot and poseur.

    Unfortunately, since I do have a day job, I did not have the time to properly humiliate you when you spouted utter and complete nonsense regarding the Laws of Warfare some weeks or months back~but I will note in passing that an eleven year old would have a better understanding of the subject by reading the back of a Cheerios® box than you displayed.

    So why don’t you find something useful to do with your life, commensurate with your skill set. Say, a roadkill collector in Upper Volta?

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  377. love2008 who wants a new name for ’09 wrote:

    I believe in the second coming of Christ, Oiram. Does that mean I am retarded? :)

    I could find you many liberal blogs where the majority answer would be, “Yes!”

    If’n you’re looking for a new name for ’09, how ’bout love2009? Seems easy enough!

    Me, I was thinking of dumping all of the adjectives, and going with Patterico as my new handle! Any objections to that?

    The adjective-laden Dana (556f76)

  378. Chicago’s bestest father wrote:

    He is both a top and a bottom. He would be in the center of the mancrush sandwich.

    There are some mental images I really didn’t need this morning!

    The adjective-laden Dana (556f76)

  379. I hereby certify that I have never been interviewed for the EIB network, nor met Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Werner von Braun, Britney Spears, Paris Hilton — though, strangely, I’d really like to — Barack Hussein Obama, John McCain, Joe Biden, Sarah Palin, either George Bush, Dick Cheney, Nancy Pelosi, Mr or Mrs Bill Clinton or Billy Mays. The most fomousest person I ever met was Colonel Harlan Sanders, at 3:00 in the morning, in a greasy-spoon diner in Lexington, Kentucky, called the Toddle House, on Euclid Avenue.

    That is all.

    The Dana who doesn't get out much (556f76)

  380. Pablo: But 111 is still eleventy-one, right?

    The mathematical genius Dana (556f76)

  381. Well, this one is awfully proud of having mastered first grade mathematics. And like a first grader, he has the annoying need to demonstrate his new grasp of addition to everyone he meets. God help us when he learns multiplication. “5 x 5 = 25, not 55! Woo hoo! In your face, bitches!” I can see it now.

    I’m looking forward to an earlier stage where it thinks it has mastered math but hasn’t. Then we’ll hear something like “Repeat after me, you cousin-humping rednecks, 10 x 10 is 20, not 1010.” And then we’ll make fun of it for saying something so retarded, and it will respond with “listen, you conservatards, 10 x 10 really isn’t 1010.” And so it will continue to entertain itself for years to come.

    The Dana Whose Name Isn't Even Dana But Wants In On The Fun (62cad4)

  382. This DCSCA is starting to use patterns of insult that have been through here before, maybe about a year ago, maybe less.

    I have to agree. Something in the sorta-rhymey thing, the dismissive insults, the 4-5 posts in a row, the obscure quotes. It could be coincidence – the internet is a big place.

    I work is done here. Good day sir.

    carlitos (34f76e)

  383. I went to CBS.

    No doubt you were an excellent Men’s washroom attendant. Pray tell us, does Gunga Dan wash his hands after usage of the men’s urinal, or does he just do a quick swipe under the faucets and blow by your towel ministrations?

    66% of the CBS work force was layed of

    That’s very interesting grammatical usage there, Sparky – did you spell NASA phonetically, or did you use highlight readers to get the job done?

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  384. EB, how’s this for another aspect of academic thought at Allegheny College?

    AD (ad74e9)

  385. Carlitos, nice use of TrollQuotes (a new board game, maybe).

    AD, almost any institution has bizarre classes and weird specialization of their faculty.

    It’s more normal in the sciences…but not always.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  386. #375- “5 x 5 = 25, not 55! Woo hoo!”

    Does it? This one went over your head, pal.

    Try again to comprehend, conservative.

    1+1=2, not 11.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  387. #379- And no doubt you were finger-licking good to him, too. ;-)

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  388. The most fomousest person I ever met was Colonel Harlan Sanders, at 3:00 in the morning, in a greasy-spoon diner in Lexington, Kentucky, called the Toddle House, on Euclid Avenue.

    I met him at Chicago’s O’Hare Airport in 1975. Small world.

    nk (d08690)

  389. 1975 would have been about the year, give or take a couple.

    Colonel Sanders tried to sell half of his business to my best friend’s father, in the late 1950s, for $5,000. (They’re all from Corbin, Kentucky.) Said best friend’s father said, no way, nobody was going to pay to eat something they could cook at home — and he died a poor man.

    Dana's best friend's best friend (556f76)

  390. What a true intellectual exercise it must be . . . to repeat “eleventy” over&over&over&over&over&

    Icy Truth (b7d162)

  391. #390- Repetition to animals in training is how one gets them to learn. Then they get a reward.

    Learn anything yet?

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  392. #390- Repetition to animals in training is how one gets them to learn. Then they get a reward.

    Learn anything yet?

    DCSCA,

    I have refrained from attacking you because you are not worth the attention. But there is a time when swatting a gnat is as good a way as any to waste time. Your are worthless little shit, shitting on Patterico’s posts, with your worthless mental diarhea. Get a life, creep.

    nk (d08690)

  393. Learn anything yet?

    Comment by DCSCA — 1/3/2009 @ 12:22 pm

    One might ask you the same question.

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  394. Aw, for crying out loud, NOYK. Don’t engage the cocksucker. Just call him what he is.

    nk (d08690)

  395. Aw, for crying out loud, NOYK. Don’t engage the cocksucker. Just call him what he is.

    Comment by nk — 1/3/2009 @ 12:45 pm

    A dishonest pot-stirrin’ troll, you mean?

    Sounds good to me.

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  396. “Roadkill?” “NASCAR?” “Upper Volta?” You’ve injected yourself into a conversation not directed toward you, I see. Russian immigrant with a government day job at CalTrans, perhaps.

    the folks who put a spacecraft on Ceres generally have a much higher regard for the technical merits of NASCAR than you display, furthermore, they are on the way to Pluto, and you are already out there.

    “Folks?” We call them aerospace engineers in New York. I acknowledge and share your admiration for the JPL/ESA teams working wonders nudging NEAR/Shoemaker on to Ceres a few years ago with a lot of reprogramming and little funding (as Americans alone can no long afford such money-wasting probes). Very Surveyor-esque of them. Viking skilled with a Ranger outcome risked. Still, ‘Probing Pluto’ would be more practical as a Disney cartoon to train veterinarians whose services may soon be taxed in California) than a costly waste to photograph a downgraded iceball a trillion miles away for 12 hours a decade from now (is it a planet, a planetoid or a rogue asteroid this month?) An iceball which will one day be crisply imaged by space telescopes in Earth or lunar orbit. Orion/Constellation will suck those wasteful little projects funding dry soon and put it to use in the manned spaceflight program. Then those ‘engineers’ will have to go out and work for a living in the private sector. Fixing old ‘NAS’cars in a crashing economy, perhaps, which as you say, is their want. President Obama will trim the fat off these esoteric, costly, make-work projects for sure. Garver is already on it. Listen to some Tom Lehrer for professional guidance- learn Chinese.

    As I posted earlier, engineers (as opposed to folks) are great tinkerers. What’s your excuse? As to ‘laws of warfare’… now there’s an oxymoron for certain, considering the source.

    It’s the weekend. Try decaf.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  397. Repetition to animals in training is how one gets them to learn.

    Very true – and your time in the Skinner box was judged a complete failure. The monkey was shocked many times, but still kept writing the same phrase over and over. Finally, a frontal lobotomy was required – also judged a failure, due to lack of cranial matter.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  398. #392- Weak. Maintain your refrain.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  399. #397- Conservative, 1+1=2, not 11. Learn.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  400. Manic – Depressive Libtard…take Lithium.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  401. Does it? This one went over your head, pal.

    Try again to comprehend, conservative.

    1+1=2, not 11.

    Oh, snap! Plus, I can do math, bitch! Watch me burn!

    Pablo (99243e)

  402. Our favorite Chicago barrister wrote:

    Aw, for crying out loud, NOYK. Don’t engage the cocksucker. Just call him what he is.

    This is a California site, nk, and you are supposed to append [NTTAWWT] to any allegations of fellatio performed by a male. Please make a note of it! :)

    The politically correct Dana (556f76)

  403. We call them aerospace engineers in New York.

    At work, we just call ‘em by name.

    And it wasn’t JPL/ESA that put NEAR on Ceres, dipsqueak.

    And you’re the only moron in the conversation.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)


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