Patterico's Pontifications

12/11/2008

Bailout Dead, for Now

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:25 pm



The auto industry bailout is dead:

A proposal to bail out the U.S. auto industry and avert the threatened collapse of one or more auto companies failed in a procedural vote in the Senate on Thursday night.

The Democratic plan to extend $14 billion in loans to Detroit faltered when supporters failed to get enough support in a procedural vote.

John Hawkins called it, and has a source at the Senate who claims that the bailout is dead until next year. In advance of the vote, the source told Hawkins:

Corker tried to make a deal with Dems, UAW wouldn’t make concessions, so it will die on cloture vote with GOP opposing. Vitter held the line too, objecting to quick vote, forcing more debate. He was strong.

Via Ace.

Everyone seems to agree, however, that Bush will dig into TARP to keep the Big 3 afloat until The One takes the helm. Nevertheless, this could make things ugly on Wall Street tomorrow.

UPDATE: Shall we make predictions on how badly the market tanks in the morning? Dow down over 1000 points, anyone?

90 Responses to “Bailout Dead, for Now”

  1. Do I hear 1500?

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  2. Not until ‘the one’ takes the helm, until the new Congress takes the helm. 17 days is a long time in this environment,

    aphrael (f785e6)

  3. There should be a lot of buy opportunities in the market Friday.

    Another Drew (821fe5)

  4. I will bet it’s not that bad–Wall Street knows that the government’s usefulness as a boss is nil. Now that they have their bailout, I’m sure it’s full steam ahead for free enterprise.

    Patricia (ee5c9d)

  5. No tankage over this. Couple of hundred? Maybe.

    Chris (cefe13)

  6. I’ll go out on a limb, and predict a very mild rise in the market. No more than 500.

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  7. Independent investors looking at the auto industry would not have been relieved by a nationalization of that domestic industry – government takes over, absolutely not upside to investing. What you will see is a panic on the part of government pension funds (union sympathies) upon further realization that GSE’s are bad investments. Were Obama not to take the White House, investors would have more confidence that chapter 11 re-organization would lead to plausible risk for long-term return.

    But Obama has special interests to pay off, and the UAW bailout still looms large on the horizon. Big three stocks tank, as do manufacturer dependent equities. Independent investors, naturally, will sit this one out. Dow down 370.

    bains (114bc0)

  8. Carnage – Unless there are new developments tomorrow. Maybe Baracky can put Blago in charge of the UAW!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  9. Dow futures are down 291 right now. Asian markets are plunging, too.

    Official Internet Data Office (244abe)

  10. The minute Chapter 11 is filed, the markets rally. Yooge.

    Ed (957a32)

  11. =yawn= Conservatives who miss the misty nostalgia of the heady, boom-boom, union-busting, credit card, charge-it-off-to-the-kids Reagan days of the 1980’s take heart as the Dow plunges. At mid-decade of Ronnie’s debt-ridden rule, the Dow was up nearly 19 points — soaring to the throttled up high of 1556.

    Yes, a high 1556! That was on January 28, 1986. The day the space shuttle Challenger exploded.

    It is truly ironic that the American capitalism must be propped on borrowed bucks from communist Red China. They have surely ‘sold capitalists the very rope by which they’ll be hanged.’ Soon, it will be cars.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  12. DCSCA – Lifting material from other blogs again?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  13. DJIA Jan. 20, 1980 – 867
    DJIA Jan. 20, 1984 – 1,259
    DJIA Jan. 20, 1988 – 1,879

    DJIA Peak from 1980 to 1988 – about 2,560 in Aug 1987. About a 295% gain from 1980.

    Funny how the Red Chinese would rather lend America money than invest in their own country.

    Perfect Sense (9d1b08)

  14. Daily- I see you ‘speak’ from experience. Conservatively, no doubt.

    Suggest you watch the CBS Evening News with Dan Rather from January 28, 1986. My copy is from my Black Rock days. Gunga Dan was never better.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  15. Perfect Sense-

    Funny how a pusher never uses the drug they peddle when they can keep a sucker addict on the needle. And when the addict can pay, the pusher cuts them off. Seeing Red yet? Suggest you focus in on their new telescope. The largest in the world, unveiled today.

    A DJIA gain of 295%… on credit cards. Wall St. 101- Liars figure and figures lie.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  16. I dont think its going to have the impact that some seem to think. Oddly enough, the big 3 are making alot of money and better cars in europe. Maybe we should let japan & europe build cars here and the big 3 can continue everywhere except the USA.

    james conrad (6bb6e6)

  17. #15 Are you contending that controlling inflation, dramatically reducing interest rates and reducing unemployment in the 1980s had no impact on the markets? Or are you just spewing KOS talking points?

    Perfect Sense (9d1b08)

  18. Well, the markets in Asia/Europe have been down from 2-5% on this news so far. Which should translate into about a 450-point drop for the Dow.

    But the real concern that involves conservatives right now is what will YOU CONSERVATIVES DO, PERSONALLY, to help the local GOP senator out when he/she gets the crapstorm in response to your much-desired filibuster of the auto bailout bill? Will you back him up and stick with him?

    Or will you again do what DRJ suggests: “Anyway, Brad S., I’m covered. I have one family member who adamantly opposes the bailout, one in favor, and one on the fence. Someone at my house will be happy no matter what happens.”

    And yes, DRJ, I will remind you of this continually until you admit that your ability to blog on Patterico makes you responsible for the words you use.

    Brad S (9f6740)

  19. #17 Are you contending trickle-down,Reaganomics works? Or are you just spewing the conservative myth that deficits don’t matter and just charge wars, aircraft carriers, SDI and tobacco subsidies to Uncle Sam’s credit card to create the illusion of prosperity? Then bail out the banks every 30 years when it all collapses on borrowed money from communist Red China? When the top tax bracket paid 91%, america was solvent. That was in the Eisenhower Administation. A Republican administration.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  20. When the top tax bracket paid 91%, america was solvent.

    And when they paid more than 91%, we got massive defecits!

    Before I waste time and effort correcting your woefully mistaken view of the 1980’s, I’d like you to detail why you think the Reagan system failed.

    I’ll be waiting by my desk, feel free to opine whenever you like, though I ask you actually try and respond to the question this time.

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  21. #19: And KENNEDY (a Democrat BTW) championed a reduction of the top rate to “only” 70%.

    So, I guess you are blaming the current crisis on the Democrat who started it all.

    But then again, why let facts, logic, or reason infect your worldview.

    Dr. K (e7aea2)

  22. Will dive 600 early a work it’s way back up and end only 200 down for the day.

    Gerald A (3ced1b)

  23. Comment by Brad S — 12/12/2008 @ 5:11 am

    I don’t need to do anything to back my Senators.
    I’m from CA, and have the Senators’ from Looney Tunes…DiFi, and Barbara Bouncer.

    Plus, with the latest crap from Sac from the ARB, this state will be in a Depression for the foreseeable future, or until there is a noted use of pitchforks and torches in Sacramento.

    Growth Industry:
    Returning moving vans to CA.

    Another Drew (9e3db1)

  24. Even with a bailout, who is going to be buying all those new cars in the next 2-3 years?

    The Not-So-Big 3 were going into the toilet bowl eventually. Might as well be now.

    Techie (07c8ee)

  25. I will remind you of this continually until you admit that your ability to blog on Patterico makes you responsible for the words you use.

    And we will remind you that you’re just a guest here on the blog, and that your tiresome rants for a commenter to be more “responsible” for the words posted are just the thinly disguised natterings of a garden – variety Troll…or Douchebag, take your pick.

    Dmac (e30284)

  26. “And we will remind you that you’re just a guest here on the blog, and that your tiresome rants for a commenter to be more “responsible” for the words posted are just the thinly disguised natterings of a garden – variety Troll…or Douchebag, take your pick.”

    Spoken like a “grown-up” conservative who can’t be bothered to put down the Starbucks enough to think his “principles” through. And you’re different from the Kos Kids, how?

    Brad S (9f6740)

  27. DCSCA, nice strawman you built there, intending to marry it?

    SPQR (72771e)

  28. It is not Conservatives who are the denizens of Starbucks.
    Most Conservatives I know get their “joe” at the local do-nut shop:
    It tastes better, and is less expensive.

    Another Drew (9e3db1)

  29. Comment by Another Drew — 12/12/2008 @ 7:42 am

    ‘No, no, not me! I’m a RESPONSIBLE CONSERVATIVE who STANDS WITH THE WORKING JOE when I buy my coffee at the LOCAL donut shop! I’m different, you see. I’m Principled, you know.’

    Still exhibiting the Starbucks cultural attitude, I see.

    Brad S (9f6740)

  30. I missed the part where you contributed something to the thread, Brad S.

    SPQR (72771e)

  31. Only a Latte Liberal would know what a Starbucks Cultural Attitude is.

    Another Drew (9e3db1)

  32. I wasn’t aware it was possible to be a Starbucks drone if you never went into a Starbucks…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  33. 23, AD, that is Barbara CHECK Bouncer!

    PCD (7fe637)

  34. another drew,

    I’m just a Stupid Republican and Evangelical Conservative who’s trying to get his fellow Stupid Republicans and Evangelical Conservatives to see reality and start taking responsibility for the last 2-4 years. Given how hard some of you are trying to throw me in the trash, and give how some of you like to play the “Oh, I’m not one of THEM STUPID REPUBLICANS,” I’m having a hard time getting you to see reality.

    I won’t stop trying, though. I’ll eventually shame you into being a grownup.

    Brad S (9f6740)

  35. I’m just a Stupid Republican and Evangelical Conservative

    Quite true.

    I’ll eventually shame you into being a grownup.

    Spoken like a true adolescent.

    Dmac (e30284)

  36. not one of THEM STUPID REPUBLICANS,”

    This sounds like something lifted off an old post from ManBearPig. Or is that you, Amanda?

    Dmac (e30284)

  37. Okay, it’s 11 a.m. their time and it’s not that bad.
    DJIA down 80, Nasdaq up.

    Money is smart.

    Patricia (ee5c9d)

  38. It is a conservative, an evangelical Christian.

    I smell a Moby.

    JD (6a82b7)

  39. Congrats to the Senate Republicans for showing a little spine. As I have said before, and will say again, this should be Left for Baracky. Then, Baracky and his band of dirty little pseudo-socialists can do whatever they like, and be accountable for same.

    I watched Barney Frank talking about this on CSPAN Wednesday night. It was priceless.

    JD (6a82b7)

  40. “Then, Baracky and his band of dirty little pseudo-socialists can do whatever they like, and be accountable for same.”

    Sure they’ll be “responsible.” That is, after they get bit in the rear end from blaming good Republicans and conservatives for too long. It’ll be like 2005-08, only for the Dems this time.

    Gee, wonder where BarryO and the Dem Congress learned how to be so irresponsible?

    Brad S (9f6740)

  41. Comment by PCD — 12/12/2008 @ 8:00 am

    Those of us who have followed BB’s illustrious career from her time in Marin do not have to use the double negative of “check bouncer”.
    Just by replacing “Boxer” with “Bouncer” will suffice to remind most people of her role in the infamous House Post Office affair.
    Just another icon of integrity!

    Another Drew (9e3db1)

  42. Gee, wonder where BarryO and the Dem Congress learned how to be so irresponsible?

    Whatever you say, Moby.

    Dmac (e30284)

  43. Troll Count: 11, 14, 15, 19…
    Moby Count: 18, 26, 29, 34, 40…

    22% & counting (and that doesn’t count the responses to these rude interruptions).

    Another Drew (9e3db1)

  44. Brad S., baffles me why you think that Republicans are “responsible” for anything related to the current economic situation. The current economic conditions are unrelated to any Republican policy over the Bush administration. While I’m pretty unhappy with the spending of the administration’s budgets, the deficit itself is not currently the main or even a major cause of any of the credit crunch, the collapse in housing prices, etc.

    SPQR (72771e)

  45. Gee, wonder where BarryO and the Dem Congress learned how to be so irresponsible?

    Brad S – I am feeling a little kind hearted today. How about you lay out what you think should have been done by the Republicans in the past, and how they should act going forward. Let’s get past your desire to shame people over holding a position, and actually have you lay out what you believe to be a position that would not involve shame.

    Maybe Brad S is Tmj’s Moby alter-ego … lol

    JD (6a82b7)

  46. SPQR – Brad S has not laid out any actual positions. He just wants to point fingers and shame people, for what reason it is unclear.

    JD (6a82b7)

  47. SPQR,

    Until Jan. 20, 2009, the Republican Party is in charge of the White House. In the eyes of the American public, we’re responsible for everything, like it or not. McCain only got 173 electoral votes on 11/4 because responsibility for the economy was tied to us. When folks like you tried to slough off blame to the Dems, in some form or another, you showed the American people you weren’t willing to take responsibility.

    Bush is your (and my) boy. Stick with him. How much more plainly do I have to say this to you?

    Brad S (9f6740)

  48. BTW, JD, you want my position on a Detroit 3 bailout? The monkeying our government did with the financial system alone mandates a bailout, especially given the global economic blowback that resulted from letting Lehman go bankrupt.

    I haven’t even gotten to the fact that the federal government gets nearly all its motor vehicle needs supplied by the Detroit 3.

    Brad S (9f6740)

  49. Brad S keeps saying things like “we” in referring to the Republican party. Is there any evidence of same?

    He claims this all the time. But other than his expressed desire to value party over principle, which is laughable, there is no real evidence that he is actually a Republican. In his world, assuming he is actually a Republican, it is more important to lend unquestioning support to the House and Senate Republicans, and President Bush, than it is to actually hold a principled position. Blind loyalty is all that is on Brad S’s menu.

    JD (6a82b7)

  50. Brad – That is not a position. That is an excuse. Just because the financial sector got an ill-advised bailout does not mean everyone else should get one too. Who is next? The MSM?

    When did it become the federal government’s responsibility to keep private company’s from going bankrupt? Even more so, when did that become a Republican principle?

    How does the fact that the Federal government gets nearly all of its vehicles from the Big 3 relevant to whether or not we should be propping private enterprise up with taxpayer dollars in the manner proposed in Congress?

    JD (6a82b7)

  51. “How about you lay out what you think should have been done by the Republicans in the past, and how they should act going forward.”

    It was quite simple, JD: Republicans should’ve stuck behind Bush on all his initiatives, not just the Iraq War. Bush, after all, when presenting his initiatives, was thinking about the future of his country (and his party, when it comes to immigration reform). You decided to choose a “hill to die on” and take a “principled stand,” never mind the fact that “knowing which side your bread is buttered on” is more principled than anything intellectual conservatives have come up with since Joe McCarthy.

    As far as after 1/20, Republicans are the loyal opposition. That means we OPPOSE, By Any Means Necessary. That means we’re not fully required to have an alternative position on most things; we just oppose.

    Easy to understand, ainnit?

    Brad S (9f6740)

  52. Brad has no political philosophy but blind obedience to the leader.
    That is a very dangerous course to steer.
    I’m sure in another society, at another time, he would have been a proud member of the Young Pioneers, and would have been nominated to full party membership.

    Another Drew (9e3db1)

  53. That is an incredibly childish, naive, and frankly, scary political philosophy you just laid out there, Brad S.

    You may claim to be a Republican, but you aren’t.

    JD (6a82b7)

  54. another drew,

    The Dems/Left thank you for doing their dirty work for them. You see, all the Dems/Left had to do when it came to GWB was wait for the “principled” intellectual and media Right to bail on him. It took a lot of nastiness and disloyalty on the part of Dems/Left to force this, but eventually the Right threw GWB under the bus.

    Who are you really trying to appease?

    Brad S (9f6740)

  55. “You may claim to be a Republican, but you aren’t.”

    If you infer that being a Republican means throwing anyone who won’t PROTECT ME FROM THE BAD PRESS my positions cause in the garbage, yeah I’m probably not one.

    Strange, though: my voting card shows GOP. I must be one of those execrable “RINOS,” according to “conservative, not Republican” folks who think Reagan’s 11th Commandment somehow applied to them.

    Brad S (9f6740)

  56. Interesting – 12:26 pm and the Dow looks fine. There was a sharp early drop, then it floated back up.

    Did Wall St. call the Big 3’s bluff? Or was it the Republicans calling Wall Street’s bluff?

    Guess that’s why I didn’t become a stockbroker…

    Tex Lovera (456ded)

  57. what will YOU CONSERVATIVES DO, PERSONALLY, to help the local GOP senator out when he/she gets the crapstorm in response to your much-desired filibuster of the auto bailout bill?

    The crapstorm, such as it is, will come from people who don’t vote GOP. Have you looked at any polls ?

    Brad S sure sounds like a Republican, doesn’t he ? Just like those seminar callers to talk radio.

    If anyone really wants to know (as opposed to trolling) the origins of the crisis, you could read this. I linked to it several weeks ago on my blog. Wallison was forced off the board of a mortgage insurance company by Fannie Mae because he had written articles critical of the “liar loans” and assorted shenanigans back in 2005. The company was told it would get no more business from Fannie Mae while he was on the board.

    Mike K (ee3203)

  58. By the way, Bush appears to be caving in on the bailout. Why can’t he see how this hurts him with the people who voted for him ?

    Mike K (ee3203)

  59. “How much more plainly do I have to say this to you?

    I’m looking forward to the part where you explain how Republicans are “responsible” for the failure of the Big 3 automakers. And explain how bailing out the UAW is good for Republicans.

    SPQR (72771e)

  60. “Why can’t he see how this hurts him with the people who voted for him ?”

    He’s less than 6 weeks away from leaving office. Why would you care? You’ve been throwing him under the bus these last 2 years anyway. Heck, he’s even nice enough to provide you cover from the blowback you were so scared to face from the positions you take.

    Too bad he’s too much of a gentleman to do what Colin Powell did the other night, though so many of you “conservative, not Republican” folks deserve it.

    Brad S (9f6740)

  61. SPQR,

    What is the reason for having political power? Is it to help improve the country in your image, with positive conservative programs. Or is it to stick a finger in the other side’s eye on a continual basis.

    This is the problem with some of you “conservative, not Republican” folks: you want to jam it up the UAW’s rear end, to hell with what it does to the rest of the country. This is what I mean when I say conservatives have become irresponsible.

    Brad S (9f6740)

  62. Brad S., that’s a bizarre statement. Subsidizing unions is not a positive Conservative program.

    SPQR (72771e)

  63. Is it to help improve the country in your image, with positive conservative programs

    You have proven to be a troll, but I will give you yet another chance to explain how bailing out Detroit with taxpayer dollars is a positive conservative program. Or how amnesty is a postive conservative program.

    We should just all let the Big 3 and the UAW do whatever they want, because Brad S thinks it is not good politics to actually have a spine, or a philosophy, beyond blindly following someone. Good Allah, this one is painful, and persistent.

    JD (6a82b7)

  64. And Republicans should stay in the wilderness for the next few years because good conservatives like JD think his good “conservative principles” are more important than being with the team. So much so that JD has no problems irresponsibly hurting people.

    In my part of the country, JD, we associate that sort of behavior with Fred Phelps and his inbred clan. Or are you somehow “different?”

    Brad S (9f6740)

  65. Just as I thought, Brad S. has no explanation for why the UAW bailout is a “positive Conservative program”.

    SPQR (72771e)

  66. Brad S – How I am irresponsibly hurting people? How is bailing out the Big 3 and the UAW a positive conservative principle?

    In my part of the country, JD, we associate that sort of behavior with Fred Phelps and his inbred clan. Or are you somehow “different?”

    This is incoherent, but I suspect you were trying to call me a name. Given the character of Fred Phelps, a Dem by the way, you certainly weren’t complimenting me. As is, I am done giving you the benefit of the doubt. Whatever kind of nonsense that was, it is indicative of what you bring to the table, or rather, what you do not.

    You have proven to be, at best, a troll. Throw in RINO, or even Moby, too.

    JD (6a82b7)

  67. #19: DrK- =sigh= Why do conservatives let their failing ideology blind them to consider context. Kennedy’s move was rationale given the context of his times. So was using DDT, making heavy steel cars with tailfins and taking the train across country. A 70% rate today would make a conservative’s head explode.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  68. The trolls seems to be especially excited given the fact that Teh One and his staff have managed to become enmeshed in a scandal prior to him ever taking office.

    JD (6a82b7)

  69. #20- Scott- Lesson #1 from the 1980s=
    The sad fact that conservatives must continue to try to defend the failure of trickle-down economics 25 years after it cratered speaks volumes. Here endith your lesson. As for your desk- Reaganomics 101- “clear it out by noon. Your job has been eliminated.”

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  70. DCSCA, I don’t have to defend a thing, since you have yet to actually make any kind of attack.

    “It sucked” doesn’t quite cut it, bubba…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  71. #70- Scott, you protest too much. Speaks volumes. Case closed.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  72. I think the market can handle the thought of a Big 3 bankruptcy but it may drop when Bush gives the Big 3 a bridge loan, because that will signal there is a bigger bailout ahead and delay an eventual bankruptcy(ies).

    Not all bailouts are equal. Bailing out the financial system was vital because our money is based on faith — the full faith and credit of the U.S. Government — as well as value. In today’s world, it’s not just banks that are the foundation of our financial system. There are a range of places where people park their money.

    On the other hand, bankruptcy is where businesses should go when they need to reorganize or liquidate. The Big 3 aren’t the first companies to have union problems and be overextended — Remember the airlines? Years of accumulated wisdom and experience have gone into the bankruptcy laws, and they are designed to fairly and efficiently solve business financial problems. I think there’s a much better chance the automakers’ problems will actually be resolved through bankruptcy than if Congress tries to invent a new wheel to bail them out.

    DRJ (b4db3a)

  73. DRJ,

    What’s the DJIA and the NASDAQ doing right now? isn’t trading over?

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  74. #70- Scott, you protest too much. Speaks volumes. Case closed.

    *snickers*

    Still not going to actually make a case? Typical.

    If you had the ability, you would do so. Your dodging of the issue is very, very telling.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  75. DCSCA,

    The idea that the meaning behind all actions and beliefs is “contextual” is a guiding principle of left-wing morons. The idea that precise and unvarying values can be obtained from all actions and beliefs is a guiding principle of right-wing donut-heads.

    Put these two together, and it’s no surprise we can’t talk to each other. And it’s no surprise that we can’t consider basic human needs when we talk policy.

    Brad S (b5b919)

  76. Dow ended the day up 65 so it just missed the down 1000 mark. Is it because the bailout failed or because the White House said it would probably step in?

    RJP (dc3645)

  77. I’ll point out that I was first to say it would gain. :)

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  78. The trolls seems to be especially excited given the fact that Teh One and his staff have managed to become enmeshed in a scandal prior to him ever taking office.

    Comment by JD — 12/12/2008 @ 11:04 am

    Um. Nope, he is not involved.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  79. nothing is going to happen..auto workers run the big 3..and bail out will not help..because UAW wont take a cut in pay..is a 2 dollar a hr pay cut gonna hurt them ..NO WAY..they are a greedy bunch..and all they care about is their selfs..whats the old saying..all fer 1 and 1 fer all.dont look that way..and just for hell of it..when do you expect them back..???..and yes i agree with Cafferty, they are a bunch of cry babies..end of story..

    RICK (d65774)

  80. Scott,

    The Dow was flat most of the day and went up slightly at the end. I didn’t watch the NASDAQ all day but I think it did the same thing.

    DRJ (b4db3a)

  81. we all know its stock markets fault for down turn..letting people who dont know how to buy stocks anyway..the market is just a big gaming house..and lots of folks are losing money..and i dont feel sorry for anybody who bets his shorts, and loses..them!!!…so bet away..suckers..and watch ya hard earned bucks, just take a hike..lololol…

    RICK (d65774)

  82. So, Scott, why did you (correctly and almost alone) think it would go up?

    RJP (dc3645)

  83. Because lately, big dives occurred when Congress passed a bailout. The Market, it seems, hates it when Congress reaches a grimy hand inside it’s bejeweled innards.

    Stood to reason, in my mind, that a FAILED bailout would boost the market, though only moderately since there was still the threat of Bush doing what he is saying he wants to do.

    If Bush follows through with his threat of using TARP to float the Big Three a bridge loan, as soon as it is announced, you can bet the market will plunge a minimum of 750. If it happens over the weekend, it will drop at least 1000.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  84. My thoughts exactly :-). Although the drop will of course depend on what, if any, conditions the White House version of the bailout contains.

    RJP (dc3645)

  85. on what, if any, conditions the White House version of the bailout contains.

    The term you are looking for is “none”.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  86. Here endith your lesson.

    Perhaps a few grammatical lessons would be in order for you, Poindexter.

    Dmac (e30284)

  87. The idea that precise and unvarying values can be obtained from all actions and beliefs is a guiding principle of right-wing donut-heads.

    Brad gives all mentally – disabled folks a bad name with continuing incoherencies such as this – much in the way of snarking and moral preaching, nothing in the way of substance or links to buttress his many raving notions.

    Dmac (e30284)

  88. #74- Scotty, its your legacy to defend. After 25 years, conservatives are still trying. When you get Reagan’s head on the Roosevelt dime, drop one and give CBS a call.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  89. Scott:

    The term you are looking for is “none”.

    Maybe you’re kidding but I think there will be conditions.

    DRJ (b4db3a)

  90. Ever wonder what a UAW contract looks like? It is over 2200 pages and weighs 22 pounds. It no wonder the big three can not compete in the global market. Honda and Toyota don’t have to deal with that kind of crap. It would take a team of lawyers just to understand this document. 2215 pages of inefficiency brought to you by the UAW

    The Intellectual Redneck (2c07a1)


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