Patterico's Pontifications

11/23/2008

Obama’s Economic Plan Will Be “In With a Bang”

Filed under: Economics,Obama — DRJ @ 6:35 pm

[Guest post by DRJ]

Obama’s economic transition team wants to take immediate action to help the ailing economy, including reneging on Obama’s pledge to repeal the Bush tax cuts for the rich:

“President-elect Barack Obama signaled Sunday he will move urgently and aggressively to rescue the plunging economy, demanding swift passage by Congress of a massive two-year spending and tax-cutting recovery program. “We’re out with the dithering, we’re in with a bang,” a top Obama aide said.

Obama’s plans, outlined by his transition team on television talk shows, could put aside his campaign pledge to repeal a Bush tax cut for the wealthy. With the downturn in the economy, those tax cuts may remain in place until they are scheduled to die in 2011, said William M. Daley, an economic adviser. “That looks more likely than not,” he said.”

I’m pleased Obama intends to act in a decisive manner because certainty is reassuring to the economy and the markets, even when the policies aren’t optimal. I’m also pleased Obama’s economic advisers have decided not to go forward with tax increases. I’m not that happy with massive New Deal-type spending that will undoubtedly be riddled with pork, but my side lost that battle.

Finally, instead of treating this “change” as more proof Obama is an open-minded moderate, I hope his supporters will also consider the possibility that higher taxes hurt the economy … and Obama and his advisers know it.

– DRJ

93 Responses to “Obama’s Economic Plan Will Be “In With a Bang””

  1. “When I say OBAMA, you say AYERS!” Not.

    If Obama’s economic policies turn out to be more fiscally conservative than he represented, rather than more liberal (as all of the neocon bloggers kept going “booga-booga” about during the campaign) then we’re in pretty good shape to ride out this recession.

    Anybody else relieved that we can stop worrying about who’s going to be president, and focus on worrying about how the heck we’re going to survive economic Armageddon? I sure am. But I do sometimes miss fighting with you guys over the silly stuff . . .

    Phil (3b1633)

  2. Phil,

    If Obama “represented” his economic policies to be something other than fiscally conservative, why were conservatives wrong to believe him? It seems to me it’s more likely Obama isn’t a fiscal conservative but his advisers have told him he has no choice in this economic environment — because higher taxes hurt the economy.

    Anyway, take heart. You can always look forward to a good debate when Obama appoints his first Supreme Court justice.

    DRJ (a50047)

  3. Don’t we live with enuff road construction already?

    I can’t go anywhere in this country without see another boondoogle project to fix our raods.

    Ug, another Union recruiting drive sponsored by the Dems to buy votes.

    Da'Shiznit (089453)

  4. Okay, so Obama is going to take action by….not doing anything. How decisive of him.

    Steverino (db5760)

  5. I’m not that happy with massive New Deal-type spending that will undoubtedly be riddled with pork

    Corruption is a good thing. Every $1 in pork represents $2 of legitimate spending (because it takes more political power to push through pork).

    Further, it’s easier to cut pork-barrel spending later down the line than legitimate spending. People put up less of a fuss when you want to take it out (a few politicians’ egos are on the line, instead of millions of welfare state sycophants’ interests).

    I hope Obama spends all of his political capital on corrupt favors to friends instead of digging us into a deep hole on entitlement spending.

    Daryl Herbert (4ecd4c)

  6. Rest assured that anyone, no matter how ostensibly bright, who is still a leftist ( or closet socialist) at age 47 has no clue how to solve the Carter-Clinton-Fannie Mae-financial crisis.

    He should have stayed in opposition where his brilliance would have remained unquestioned.

    Terry Gain (26e16a)

  7. Racing against the DOW. By the time O! takes office, the DOW might be down there at 5,000, due to his election. Then when it rebounds back up to 7500 after 4 years, he can take credit for a raging, successful bull market. And the MSM will swear to it.

    PC14 (82e46c)

  8. Look the Vast numver of Americans voted for Barack Obama, he is now picking his cabinet, he is in charge, not the media or bloggers….we Americans voted him in….now everyone should just back off and let the man do his job.

    KETTLE (08e13b)

  9. Let me get this straight.

    Liberals constantly accused Bush of giving “tax breaks for the rich”.This was supposed to be one of Bush’s “irresponsible economic policies” that have led to such a drastic pay differential between the rich and everybody else.
    So when we go into an economic meltdown brought on by the democrats and their corruptive Fannie/Freddie sub prime schemes,they want to keep the policies in place they have been telling the public are corrupt and destroying the middle class. They all of a sudden think raising taxes is
    a bad idea.He!!,Biden said raising taxes was patriotic.
    So if the economy was going gangbusters,are we
    to believe that raising taxes would be a good idea.If raising taxes is a bad idea in a recession,it is still a bad idea when the economy is strong,stagnating economic growth.

    This “hope and change” thing is looking like four
    more years of Bush everyday.

    FISA wiretapping(okay now that Obama has voted for it)
    —————-
    CIA interrogation methods (okay now that Obama is
    President,even stated the justice dept. will not investigate all the supposed atrocities by the Bush administration.What are the liberals going to do with all those orange jumpsuits and Bush/Cheney
    torture signs )
    ——————
    Troops staying in Iraq based on conditions on the
    ground.(Is in the new forces agreement.Just like Bush has been saying for years.Obama originally wanted withdrawal to begin in Jan. 07)
    —————–

    Now democrats admit that raising taxes is detrimental to economic growth.

    —————–
    Bush doesn’t need 20 years of history to show he
    was right,Obama’s going to accomplish that for him
    in less than four.

    Baxter Greene (8035ae)

  10. If Obama’s economic policies turn out to be more fiscally conservative than he represented, rather than more liberal (as all of the neocon bloggers kept going “booga-booga” about during the campaign) then we’re in pretty good shape to ride out this recession.

    Oh, so simply pointing out that Obama proposed ideas during his campaign that are political and economic suicide during a recession is “booga-booga”?

    Whatever, Phil.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (56da7b)

  11. Look the Vast numver of Americans voted for Barack Obama, he is now picking his cabinet, he is in charge, not the media or bloggers….we Americans voted him in….now everyone should just back off and let the man do his job.

    Jack Klompus, responding to a similar comment on another thread:

    W’s presidency: Bush is a warmongering Hitler clone, worst president ever, “Rethuglicans”, assassination fetishes, threats to emigrate (sadly but unsurprisingly not carried through), marches, protests, and parades deriding anyone with an “R” as a tool of corporate interests, “Faux News”, Bush lied People died, 9/11 was an inside job, Code Pink, deriding Bush as a zero IQ retard chimp look-alike, conservatives are “wingers”, “wingnuts”,etc.

    Obama’s election: It’s really time to come together and stand with our President and solve our problems. We don’t need partisan division.

    Let’s revise the Obama’s election comment to include the “back off” sentiment:

    ….we Americans voted him in….now everyone should just back off and let the man do his job.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (56da7b)

  12. “now everyone should just back off and let the man do his job.”

    We are backed off. The know-nothing leftist is in power. But we will not remain silent while events unfold as we warned and as is predictible- unless you are an ignorant Obamatron.

    Terry Gain (26e16a)

  13. Hey Phil–do the words “bait and switch” mean anything to you?

    Right now the lefties are screaming; but the truth is that, just as Jeremiah Wright said, Obama ain’t nuthin but a politician–doing whatever is good for Obama. Conservatives will get to scream in their turn.

    Hope and Change my bleeding backside!

    Mike Myers (31af82)

  14. This is some of the liberal “logic” we are going to be dealing with for the next four years:

    With Wallace on FNS today:
    http://www.redstate.com/diaries/redstate/2008/nov/23/the-sunday-morning-talk-shows-the-review-15/
    (via Redstate)

    (House Dem leader)Hoyer said that Obama will cut taxes for 95% of Americans and that tax cuts have put us in the worse economic situation “since Herbert Hoover.”

    These people are so full of crap and spin that you
    would need our full staff at the NSA to decipher
    where the he!! they stood on any issue.

    Baxter Greene (8035ae)

  15. Comment by Paul (creator of “Staunch Brayer”) — 11/23/2008 @ 8:33 pm

    Dead on!

    It is hilarious to listen to liberals demand bi-partisanship and team work after the last 8 years of hatred and bigotry they have been spewing.

    Remember,”dissent is patriotic”.
    We are “speaking truth to power”.

    Here is what Obama said after he won the election:

    In this country, we rise or fall as one nation, as one people. Let’s resist the temptation to fall back on the same partisanship and pettiness and immaturity that has poisoned our politics for so long.

    Here is his Chief of staff’s idea of implementing
    this:

    And here’s Rahm Emanuel:
    “I’ll tell you this,” Emanuel shouted out to his staff. “The Republicans may have the 72-hour program. But they have not seen the 22-month program!
    “Since my kids are gone, I can say it: They can go -f-*# k– themselves!”

    If you liberals dish it out,you better be able to
    take it.

    Baxter Greene (8035ae)

  16. The Obama announcements are great for perceptions, however the long term impact remains questionable. The state of the economy presents a serious challenge for unusual Vision. Where will it come from?

    Post election we look for actions that might provide a glimpse into the potential of serious “change” arriving with an Obama Presidency, beyond re-assembling the Clinton entourage.

    We seek something not self evident, something that might provide insight into whether or not Obama has capacity for “vision,” and leadership for the Nation.

    The first Tell . . . .

    http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/2008/11/obama-first-tell.html

    James Raider (1679cd)

  17. Obama is a relatively young person with no first-hand recollection of how America used to thrive when foreign imports were kept-out by imposition of high import tariffs.

    Obama’s biggest challenge will be our economy. He needs to understand we cannot price-compete with foreign countries that:
    (1) use slave/prison labor
    (2) have no environmental laws
    (3) have no Occupational Safety and Hazard laws (4) have no disability rights laws
    (5) have no antitrust laws
    (6) have no union rights laws
    (7) have no minimum wage laws

    When we boot-out ALL the imported goods/services from countries that do not have comparible laws to protect their society and environment as we do, WE WILL ALL HAVE HIGH-PAYING JOBS, whereby we manufacture and market OUR goods and services to one-another, with no need for future bail-outs.

    Rochesterian (c7aaab)

  18. “When we boot-out ALL the imported goods/services from countries that do not have comparible laws to protect their society and environment as we do, WE WILL ALL HAVE HIGH-PAYING JOBS, whereby we manufacture and market OUR goods and services to one-another”

    Rochesterian – What will make up for the losses of jobs in companies which export goods to countries which retaliate against our trade actions?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  19. Rochesterian for Secretary of Commerce! What could go wrong?

    Jack Klompus (b0e238)

  20. “Look the Vast numver of Americans voted for Barack Obama, he is now picking his cabinet, he is in charge”

    KETTLE – A vast number of Americans also voted against him and he is actually not in charge until January 20, 2009.

    He had to say and promise a lot of stuff to get dumb people like you to vote for him. Now he is having to backtrack from those promises in the typical liberal manner. How did Pelosi and Reid do with their agenda from 2006? Do you need reminding?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  21. “Rest assured that anyone, no matter how ostensibly bright, who is still a leftist ( or closet socialist) at age 47 has no clue how to solve the Carter-Clinton-Fannie Mae-financial crisis.”

    Haha yeah just ignore like, 20 of the past 32 years. That will tell you who has a clue.

    I heard Rush has taken to calling our financial woes “the Obama recession.” Is this true? Can one of you dittoheads confirm?

    imdw (23c2b4)

  22. I don’t understand why Obama said he planned to create or save only 2.5 million jobs with his plan. He’s thinking too small. With his “create or save” language, even if new jobs aren’t created, he can always claim he saved jobs. Given those weasel words, I’m surprised he didn’t throw out a number like 10 million. Nobody can hold him accountable for his statement with the way it is worded in any case.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  23. “Rest assured that anyone, no matter how ostensibly bright, who is still a leftist ( or closet socialist) at age 47 has no clue how to solve the Carter-Clinton-Fannie Mae-financial crisis.”

    Absolutely, socialism is not the cure. Government intervention perverting normal private market forces is what caused the problems.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  24. Figure O! with the aid will stimulate the economy when he takes over the office. Meanwhile there is now talk of a homebuilders bailout. Will they produce more homes for the people who can’t afford them? And Drudge has a link talking about how the TV networks’ ad revenue is falling and it may be that they need a bailout also. I suppose they couldn’t ask the fat cats like Couric, Olberdouche and Matthews to take a pay cut. Or should taxpayers give perky katie a raise?
    You’d think all that money being printed would eventually lead the inflation…more money chasing fewer goods?
    Some of my local moonbats think the domestic auto industry needs stimuli in form of $10,000 taxpayer funded rebates to purchase GM, Ford and Chrysler products. Isn’t that a dandy idea?

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  25. With all these predictions that Obama is going to govern to the right of regan, I may just have to vote for him instead of a confirmed socialist like Sarah Palin.

    parsnip (1e884c)

  26. Daleyrocks said: What will make up for the losses of jobs in companies which export goods to countries which retaliate against our trade actions?

    What kind of “goods” are you referring to? Things Americans can no longer afford b/c our manufacturing infrastructure and related jobs have disappeared through out-sourcing?

    Rochesterian (c7aaab)

  27. the “BANG” will likely be the market crashing through yet another “floor” on it’s way to the basement.

    Juggy is a moron, and so are all the fools who voted for him.

    redc1c4 (27fd3e)

  28. “Some of my local moonbats think the domestic auto industry needs stimuli in form of $10,000 taxpayer funded rebates to purchase GM, Ford and Chrysler products. Isn’t that a dandy idea?”

    they want to give me $10K to buy a junker i neither need nor want? what crack heads…….

    redc1c4 (27fd3e)

  29. “What kind of “goods” are you referring to? Things Americans can no longer afford b/c our manufacturing infrastructure and related jobs have disappeared through out-sourcing?”

    Rochesterian – No, you moron. Products manufactured in the United States and shipped overseas. Try looking at export statistics for a clue instead of reading International A.N.S.W.E.R. pamplets.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  30. Max – Those “Big Girl Serious” glasses Katie wears so people don’t laugh at her are pretty rxpensive I hear. She might indeed need a bailout.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  31. One BIG plus to the economy will be an announcement illegal surveillance and “sneek and peeks’ on Americans will cease.

    Many folks (myself included) who earn their living buying/selling goods/services through use of domestic/overseas communications have opted-out of purchasing big-ticket items because they feel their ability to earn an honest living has been stymied by the illegal eavesdropping.

    Rochesterian (e230c5)

  32. Daleyrocks said: Rochesterian – No, you moron. Products manufactured in the United States and shipped overseas. Try looking at export statistics for a clue instead of reading International A.N.S.W.E.R. pamplets.

    Daleyrocks, let’s talk the big-ticket items: Even a moron can understand the simple equation we cannot compete with barbarians who are able to produce cheaper than us b/c they have do not have laws such as OSHA, EPA, ADA, Sherman A/T, etc.

    The moment we boot-out goods made cheaper in China/Korea/Pakistan/India/Russia/China, our trained labor can return to work in our factories.

    Rochesterian (e230c5)

  33. Rochesterian – Here is a list of U.S. exports from the census department, 2008 versus 2007, year to date. See how it conforms to your hypothesis.

    Foods, feeds, and beverages 86,907 60,611 26,296

    Soybeans 14,037 7,619 6,418
    Wheat 9,647 5,567 4,080
    Corn 12,195 8,058 4,137
    Oilseeds, food oils 2,644 1,401 1,242
    Fruits, frozen juices 5,389 4,550 839
    Dairy products and eggs 2,670 1,612 1,058
    Nuts 3,075 2,562 513
    Vegetables 3,805 3,164 641
    Animal feeds, n.e.c. 4,710 3,277 1,433
    Meat, poultry, etc. 10,270 7,187 3,083
    Nonagricultural foods, etc. 948 844 105
    Fish and shellfish 3,290 3,254 36
    Rice 1,747 1,074 673
    Bakery products 2,985 2,552 433
    Alcoholic beverages, excluding wine 984 869 115
    Wine, beer, and related products 983 897 86
    Other foods 6,259 5,409 849
    Sorghum, barley, oats 1,268 716 553

    Industrial supplies and materials 305,626 232,083 73,543

    Fuel oil 28,719 10,201 18,518
    Chemicals-organic 26,489 23,348 3,141
    Petroleum products, other 22,272 13,891 8,381
    Plastic materials 25,086 21,412 3,674
    Steelmaking materials 11,568 7,210 4,359
    Precious metals, other 8,928 6,068 2,860
    Copper 5,022 4,002 1,020
    Chemicals-inorganic 6,465 5,281 1,185
    Aluminum and alumina 6,912 5,853 1,059
    Synthetic rubber-primary 2,951 2,653 298
    Iron and steel products, other 5,412 4,267 1,144
    Chemicals-other 17,703 15,189 2,514
    Electric energy 1,135 688 446
    Crude oil 722 596 126
    Finished metal shapes 12,834 11,368 1,466
    Natural gas liquids 2,639 1,365 1,275
    Pulpwood and woodpulp 6,328 5,070 1,258
    Glass-plate, sheet, etc. 1,251 1,080 171
    Nonmetallic minerals 602 427 175
    Newsprint 9,486 8,586 900
    Agriculture-manufactured, other 1,646 1,419 227
    Mineral supplies-manufactured 3,828 3,653 176
    Finished textile supplies 1,837 1,874 -36
    Cotton fiber cloth 2,145 2,145 (-)
    Shingles, molding, wallboard 2,936 2,521 415
    Wood supplies, manufactured 1,097 929 168
    Tapes, audio and visual 400 458 -57
    Nontextile floor tiles 374 340 34
    Industrial rubber products 2,554 2,435 119
    Agric. industry-unmanufactured 2,501 1,521 980
    Agric. farming-unmanufactured 1,948 1,563 385
    Logs and lumber 3,405 3,575 -170
    Other industrial supplies 15,493 14,867 625
    Hair, waste materials 479 447 32
    Leather and furs 767 850 -83
    Manmade cloth 4,663 4,340 323
    Nuclear fuel materials 1,769 1,765 4
    Iron and steel mill products 9,002 6,518 2,485
    Tobacco, unmanufactured 925 869 56
    Hides and skins 1,591 1,644 -53
    Coal and fuels, other 1,991 1,135 855
    Nonferrous metals, other 5,946 5,713 233
    Gas-natural 3,815 2,529 1,286
    Metallurgical grade coal 4,228 2,178 2,050
    Cotton, raw 3,838 3,433 405
    Chemicals-fertilizers 8,581 4,498 4,083
    Nonmonetary gold 15,343 10,308 5,035

    Capital goods, except automotive 358,620 330,223 28,397

    Civilian aircraft 36,643 34,932 1,711
    Drilling & oilfield equipment 10,651 9,512 1,139
    Computer accessories 22,944 24,379 -1,435
    Computers 11,278 10,036 1,242
    Engines-civilian aircraft 16,523 14,287 2,236
    Electric apparatus 23,172 23,229 -58
    Industrial machines, other 28,893 28,472 421
    Generators, accessories 9,016 7,650 1,366
    Measuring, testing, control instruments 16,186 16,342 -157
    Metalworking machine tools 5,645 5,061 584
    Industrial engines 16,012 13,399 2,614
    Medicinal equipment 20,066 17,584 2,482
    Food, tobacco machinery 2,274 1,962 312
    Semiconductors 39,250 37,152 2,098
    Pulp and paper machinery 2,244 2,023 221
    Marine engines, parts 1,052 986 66
    Spacecraft, excluding military 21 23 -2
    Commercial vessels, other 283 212 70
    Excavating machinery 11,331 9,383 1,949
    Photo, service industry machinery 7,437 6,835 602
    Textile, sewing machines 1,011 1,050 -39
    Specialized mining 1,020 745 275
    Laboratory testing instruments 6,766 6,009 757
    Nonfarm tractors and parts 2,466 2,203 263
    Vessels, excluding scrap 77 90 -14
    Parts-civilian aircraft 15,401 14,016 1,384
    Materials handling equipment 11,094 8,764 2,330
    Wood, glass, plastic 3,197 2,655 542
    Business machines and equipment 3,320 2,115 1,205
    Agricultural machinery, equipment 6,168 4,556 1,612
    Railway transportation equipment 2,544 2,105 439
    Telecommunications equipment 24,635 22,455 2,179

    Automotive vehicles, parts, and engines 94,611 89,606 5,006

    Consumer goods 122,578 108,473 14,105

    Artwork, antiques, stamps, etc. 6,787 5,508 1,279
    Toys, games, and sporting goods 9,017 7,697 1,319
    Other household goods 12,882 11,582 1,299
    Records, tapes, and disks 4,133 3,727 406
    Household appliances 5,537 5,162 376
    Toiletries and cosmetics 6,543 5,557 986
    Books, printed matter 4,374 4,149 224
    Pharmaceutical preparations 29,487 26,694 2,793
    Apparel, household goods – textile 3,651 3,588 63
    Apparel,household goods-nontextile 1,649 1,458 191
    Rugs 840 765 75
    Cookware, cutlery, tools 801 742 59
    Furniture, household goods, etc. 3,079 2,628 451
    Glassware, chinaware 400 361 39
    Nursery stock, etc. 329 317 12
    Sports apparel and gear 456 419 36
    TV’s, VCR’s, etc. 2,871 2,832 39
    Musical instruments 1,677 1,509 168
    Tobacco, manufactured 653 909 -255
    Stereo equipment, etc. 1,801 1,830 -29
    Gem diamonds 12,129 8,777 3,352
    Pleasure boats and motors 2,706 2,380 325
    Numismatic coins 254 164 90
    Jewelry, etc 5,396 5,167 229
    Writing and art supplies 5,124 4,549 575

    Other goods 40,234 34,762 5,472

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  34. Rochesterian – Here is a link from the Census Department against which to rest your hypothesis. It details 2008 and 2007 exports year-to-date. I don’t see your argument.

    http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/Press-Release/current_press_release/exh7.txt

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  35. “One BIG plus to the economy will be an announcement illegal surveillance and “sneek and peeks’ on Americans will cease.”

    Rochesterian – Can you point to anyone judicially determined to have been victimized by the “illegal surveillance” of which you speak or is it just more lefty paranoia? It seems just part of the hysteria over Bush’s Constitution shredding, liberty stripping, etc., etc., that the left has been complaining about. It’s all noise and no specifics. Standard BDS paranoia.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  36. One BIG plus to the economy will be an announcement illegal surveillance and “sneek and peeks’ on Americans will cease.

    Many folks (myself included) who earn their living buying/selling goods/services through use of domestic/overseas communications have opted-out of purchasing big-ticket items because they feel their ability to earn an honest living has been stymied by the illegal eavesdropping.
    Comment by Rochesterian — 11/23/2008 @ 10:51 pm

    Not one single person has been able to prove the NSA international wiretapping program has harmed them.On the contrary,many lives have been saved by it’s use in preventing terrorist attacks.
    We didn’t hear you liberals complain about it hurting you when Clinton was using it for “business” reasons,not national security.

    “their ability to earn an honest living
    has been stymied by the illegal eavesdropping”that democrats have repeatedly been briefed on and
    voted to approve.
    The same one Obama approved of that even gave immunity to the telecom services.

    This BDS whinnying is the same as listening to you liberals spend most of the 90′s telling the world how dangerous Saddam was with his WMD’s/ties
    to al-qaeda,voting to remove Saddam with force the n when the going gets tough,it’s “Bush lied”.

    This pathetic self imposed amnesia concerning democratic actions and responsibility might work in that Berkeley bubble you live in but it doesn’t
    cut it with the reality based community.

    How’s that impeachment going genius?

    Baxter Greene (8035ae)

  37. Obama is a relatively young person with no first-hand recollection of how America used to thrive when foreign imports were kept-out by imposition of high import tariffs.

    Well, my memory of the Depression is hazy; I was only two when it ended in 1940, but, unlike you, I have read history and know you are full of BS.

    By the way, Obama has already reversed himself on FISA. I do suspect your posts are parody, though. Nobody is that dumb.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  38. Oh, yes they are.

    Dmac (e30284)

  39. Isolationist trade policies….yep, that’s the ticket to prosperity!!!

    Let’s ask the already failing auto industry how cutting 30%+ of their most profitable business will help their bottom line.

    Let’s ask Boeing how cutting off 70%+ of their sales will keep those manufacturing employees working.

    I’m sure the cattle producers, who export over half of their production will get behind this.

    Wheat? Sure….let’s not export any of this commodity…I’m sure we can consume the entire wheat production here in the states…same with sugar…corn syrup…soybeans….corn…pork…poultry, etc. I think the agribusiness will get behind this idea 100%!

    I know that I, as a consumer, will be glad to pay a higher price for my next computer, television, DVD player, and especially my clothes. I mean, really, I want to pay more!!

    I’ve read a lot of stupid comments and ideas on this failing economy, some by PE Obama and his advisers, but you, Rochesterian have won the all time prize for ignorance and downright stupidity.

    rls (14b9d3)

  40. Rochesterian, the idea that electronic surveillance has an impact on our economy is among the sillier I’ve seen among your many silly ideas.

    And your claim that “sneak and peek” will cease only shows your ignorance of the issue, since the Bush administration was doing nothing that had not already been done for several previous administrations – the PATRIOT Act merely codified existing practices in statute and clarified the subject matter of investigations allowed to use those techniques.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  41. These moonbats are funny – patsnip and rochesterian. I would be interested to hear more about your isolationist policies, and how illegal eavsdropping somehow inhibits your ability to make an honest living.

    JD (5f0e11)

  42. I just find it funny that all the Republicans are treating Obama like Santa Claus, hoping he’ll continue your favorite Bush admin. programs unchanged, JD.

    I think it will depend on whether those policies were naughty or nice.

    parsnip (1e884c)

  43. That Rostafarian is an interesting one. Isolationism, mixed in with a healthy dose of BDS and paranoia.

    JD (5f0e11)

  44. I just find it funny that all the Republicans are treating Obama like Santa Claus…

    Yes, imagination can be amusing, can’t it?

    Pablo (99243e)

  45. “I just find it funny that all the Republicans are treating Obama like Santa Claus…”

    Now THAT’S f’n funny.

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  46. Parsnip – I presume you can point out where I want all of President Bush’s policies to continue unabated.

    JD (5f0e11)

  47. The only Bush policies I want to see continued are those that prosecute the GWOT. Other than the tax cuts, his domestic policies were the suxor. Please don’t continue them.

    rls (14b9d3)

  48. Daleyrocks said: Rochesterian – Can you point to anyone judicially determined to have been victimized by the “illegal surveillance”

    It’s irrevevant/immaterial whether illegal surveillance has been judicially determined or otherwise proved.

    THE POINT I’M MAKING is people such as myself:

    (1) BELIEVE illegal DOJ surveillance exists,
    (2) we have stopped purchase of big-ticket items because we don’t like making our business deals if we believe someone is listening-in.
    (3) when official announcement is made illegal surveillance will end, we will resume to business as usual.

    Rochesterian (2b3363)

  49. Oh hell! Who let in the conspiracy theory troll?

    Icy Truth (aedb2f)

  50. 49, Icy, troll nothing, R is a full blown nutcase! I’m all but waiting for “Rita X” to come in and talk about Farakhan’s Mothership. R must be another strain of Troother.

    PCD (7fe637)

  51. Rochester, your #2 is an invention originating in the southern end of your alimentary canal.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  52. THE POINT I’M MAKING is people such as myself:

    …were among the following unfortunate souls who –

    - were the followers of Jim Jones;
    - were indoctrinated into the Heaven’s Gate cult;
    - wear the tin foil, 24/7

    Congrats, you’re among honored company.

    Dmac (e30284)

  53. THE POINT I’M MAKING is people such as myself:

    - were among the followers of Jim Jones;
    - were indoctrinated into the Heaven’s Gate cult;
    - wear tin foil 24/7

    Congrats, you’re an honored member of the club.

    Dmac (e30284)

  54. Rovhesterian – Please tell us more. What big ticket items are you buying that the government would want to listen in on? This is interesting.

    I have to go get some lab work done, and an ultrasound, but will be back to follow up with you.?

    Are you related to David Petranos Esp or MKDP?

    JD (5f0e11)

  55. Who let Dale Gribble in?

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  56. Economics is a funny old thing.

    Conspiracy theories are worth just as much as objective truth if people believe them.

    parsnip (1e884c)

  57. Dmac – That was a good one.

    JD (5f0e11)

  58. JD,

    Is this about you?

    nk (5fa892)

  59. 54, JD, The nutcase is waiting to invest in another cardboard box and maybe a shower at the truck stop.

    PCD (7fe637)

  60. It’s irrevevant/immaterial whether illegal surveillance has been judicially determined or otherwise proved.

    In other words,it doesn’t matter that the rule of
    law that I “act”like I care about has actually shown that something is illegal,what matters is that in my own mind it is illegal,which is all that counts in my world.

    1) BELIEVE illegal DOJ surveillance exists,

    So after showing that the rule of law means nothing if it does not fall in line with my ideology,I will still invoke the rule of law (illegal Doj)that I myself do not follow when it
    doesn’t suit me,to make my point that something is
    illegal even though it has not been proven illegal
    and my liberal heroes like Obama approve of it and
    have voted for it.

    Watching idiots like Rochesterian post this drivel
    goes a long way in understanding how so many people like this think a failed community organizer who’s biggest accomplishment is writing
    two books about himself is qualified to be President and will change the world.

    Baxter Greene (8035ae)

  61. NK at #59. Sure is. Notice how he’s even able to work in a joke about fat chicks there. Here, the gallbladder may be gone, but the seething hostility is still there

    I'm Just Sayin' (a83d56)

  62. DMAC said: THE POINT I’M MAKING is people such as myself:
    were among the following unfortunate souls who –
    were the followers of Jim Jones;

    Assumming arguendo, I am Jim Jones reincarnated, did he not buy new cars? Some of the dumbest, broke-joke-#ucks we all know buy new big-ticket cars every year for no financially sound reason whatsoever.

    The fact remains this group of folks are opting-out of buying big-ticket stuff b/c they hate making their business deals for fear of surveillance upon them absent probable cause.

    Obama’s new AG needs to re-assure us the illegal surveillance against Americans have stopped from here-on-in.

    Rochesterian (2b3363)

  63. JD. You need to concentrate on your job dude. Capitalism is a b*tch when you do absolutely nothing all day. Stop spending all day d*cking around on here.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  64. strike that last comment.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  65. “The fact remains this group of folks are opting-out of buying big-ticket stuff b/c they hate making their business deals for fear of surveillance upon them absent probable cause.”

    Rastafarian – Do you think Bush had surveillance set up in new car showrooms?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  66. “Some of the dumbest, broke-joke-#ucks we all know buy new big-ticket cars every year for no financially sound reason whatsoever.”

    Rastafarian – Obviously the first mistake of such people was to not explain their reasoning to you and seek your advance clearance for their purchases. They must have thought they were doing the right thing at the time. Given the opportunity, you could have straightened them out.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  67. Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that the comments are loading slow and sometimes seem to disappear?

    DRJ (a50047)

  68. They disappear all the time. At first I thought it was just me, but something’s going on with my software settings or the site software

    timb (815924)

  69. DRJ, my get well wishes to JD disappeared. I hit refresh a few times so if they show up several times later on, please delete all but one. Thx.

    Dana (79a78b)

  70. DRJ – I can see my comments listed on the recent comments sidebar, but they don’t show up on my screen until way, way later. Is there something I should do with my settings (IE) or have you folks been changing settings?

    [Thanks for everyone's response. I think it's a programming issue or maybe we're getting spammed, but I don't think it's anything we are doing. I sent Patterico an email and he will probably check with the ISP people. -- DRJ]

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  71. nk – Yes, that is me.

    tmj – I am in the hospital. Not a whole lot to do between labs, surgery, etc …

    JD (5f0e11)

  72. I will believe in the prevailing of the illuminati as soon as I see it. Unfortunately, I am afraid these might be the non-majority of the good changes.

    EW (7f2fd7)

  73. Could it be that a few months back Obama was listening to our Present administration telling us that we are in fact not in a recession?

    My point is, back then with ridiculous accounts of false prosperity coming from the Bush Administration, a tax increase might just have been the ticket to help our economy recover from an unpaid war.

    Now that Obama is in the “know” and our economy woes can no longer be hidden, he might have changed his mind on the tax cuts.

    Glad to see you at least like some of what Obama is doing.

    Oiram (983921)

  74. Oiram, that is more than a little misrepresentation. The administration was not saying earlier in the year that the economy was robust but was saying – correctly at the time – that it had not entered a recession.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  75. Stop spending all day d*cking around on here.

    Quite representative of the commenter in question – doesn’t take much to get that mask to come off.

    Dmac (e30284)

  76. “Now that Obama is in the “know” and our economy woes can no longer be hidden, he might have changed his mind on the tax cuts.”

    Oiram – In other words, never attempt to hold Obama accountable for the things he says in order to get dumb people to vote for him.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  77. JD – Get well soon. My thoughts and prayers are with you for a speedy recovery!

    Jack Klompus (b0e238)

  78. The administration was not saying earlier in the year that the economy was robust but was saying – correctly at the time – that it had not entered a recession.

    And while it’s probably about to become true, we still aren’t, and won’t be until the first quarter of ’09 ends.

    Pablo (99243e)

  79. The only things that kept our economy from technically being in a recession were Bush’s tax rebates and Wall Street’s phony bookkeeping, SPQR.

    parsnip (1e884c)

  80. Terry Gain:

    Regarding the following quote from your post:
    “…anyone, no matter how ostensibly bright, who is still a leftist ( or closet socialist) at age 47 has no clue how to solve the Carter-Clinton-Fannie Mae-financial crisis.”

    How dare you presume to know Obama in advance of any action on his part? How is it that you conveniently leave out any responsibility on the part of Bush for the current crisis? Is it possible you are tuned to an old analog channel in a digital, hi-def world?

    Your right-wing neo-cons had better get over the fact that Obama did not nearly so much win the election as your part of the Republican party gave it to him.

    Sit on the sidelines like the sour grapes boo birds you are, or, better yet, take your ball and go home while the rest of us actually work at setting the ship right after 8 years of Bush.

    TheLastModerate (9e3aaa)

  81. Yes indeed “lastmoderate/blame the evil, albeit really dimbulb BusHitler for all our woes”

    So Dodd, Franks, Reid and Pelosi could have prevented all of our problems if not for this administration that, as the banished Levi once said wipes its a** with the constitution. I guess we need to bail everyone but the actual middle class taxpayers who will pay for the insanity. No doubt you libtards will gleefully seize assets and destroy wealth.

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  82. If Obama doesn’t repeal the tax cuts on his first day, that doesn’t make him a liar. On the contrary, to make that a top priority in the wake of this catastrophe would be a dumb move.

    Psyberian (37b2ae)

  83. The last moderate my ass. Moderates do not spew standard Leftist boilerplate rants.

    That one reminded me of that website, themoderate voice. I just love the wsy that they abuse the English language.

    JD (5f0e11)

  84. ______________________________________

    The last moderate my ass.

    Maybe he’s “moderate” or “centrist” by the standards of someone living in San Francisco, Manhattan or Hollywood. Or “moderate” by the standards of someone living in Euro-Socialized France or, per the reports below, Britain.

    Whatever the case, quite a few of those “moderates” and definitely most flat-out liberals throughout America will read the following news and either shrug it off, or — were such governmental policies transferred across the Atlantic — happily bend over and take such edicts for all they’re worth. (And I bet that Obama is green eyed with envy at, and quite jealous of, a bureaucrat/politician like Alistair Darling).

    (Incidentally, 1 British pound is equal to about 1.50 US dollar)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk, 11-24-08

    As widely predicted, [British Chancellor] Alistair Darling [of the Labor Party] introduced a new top level of tax, which will be imposed on people earning over £150,000 a year. They will pay 45% in the pound, up from 40%, from April 2011.

    Less anticipated though was the clawback of the personal allowance for higher earners, which will see some taxpayers effectively paying paying 60% in the £1, according to leading accountants. These changes will not just affect the 1% of taxpayers earning more than £150,000 a year. It will potentially affect 650,000 people earning more than £100,000 a year. To further rub salt into the wound these higher earners will also pay an additional 1% in National Insurance costs, giving an effective taxation rate of 61% – a rate not seen since the late 1980s.

    These changes will not be introduced all at once. The changes to the personal allowance will come into effect in April 2010. This could be before a General Election which would effectively give the Government a mandate to introduce new taxes on higher earners. The new National Insurance rates and supertax will be introduced the following year.

    Richard Mannion, the national tax director at Smith & Williamson said the effect on higher earners will be substantial. He said: “An individual earning £140,000 a year today is likely to see their tax bill increase by over £1,200 a year because of the restriction on the personal allowance.
    _____________________

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk, 11-24-08

    There will be a 2% per litre rise in the cost of petrol [in Great Britain] from December 1, meaning motorists will make no gain from a cut in VAT announced in the pre-Budget report.

    Anger at the fuel duty increases was tempered by a climb-down over controversial plans to increase road tax on millions of cars.

    The Treasury insisted next week’s duty rise would leave drivers no worse off, but future rises will mean net increases in the cost of fuel.

    The first duty increase was postponed earlier this year amid soaring oil prices, but with oil now at half the level it reached at its peak and pump prices falling, the Chancellor said it was right to go ahead with the rise.

    Fuel duty will then rise again by 2% a litre in April next year and once more in April 2010, giving a total of 6% extra tax that will more than off-set the one-off temporary VAT cut, which will be reversed at the start of 2010.

    Edmund King, president of the AA, warned that Mr Darling was gambling by assuming that oil prices would stay low. He said: “Darling is playing roulette with global fuel prices and could lose his gamble. It is a very big gamble as there are 32 million motorists out there and most of them have a vote. If the global price of oil increases this hike may come back to haunt the Government.”

    The Freight Transport Association said Mr Darling’s move had “added thousands to the transport bills of companies across every sector.”

    The group said: “For a Chancellor who said he wanted to support British business through these troubled times, Alistair Darling has a cynical disregard for the cashflow problems of many small and medium sized commercial vehicle operators across the country….”

    A spokesman for the Road Haulage Association said the duty rise was “a smack in the teeth” for trucking firms.


    ______________________________________

    Mark (411533)

  85. Mark,

    How many Americans are really going to care if Obama raises the tax rate on the richest 1%?

    1%?

    parsnip (1e884c)

  86. parsnip illustrates, quite nicely, the danger when the majority realizes they csn just start legislating shit away from the minority.

    JD (5f0e11)

  87. #

    Mark,

    How many Americans are really going to care if Obama raises the tax rate on the richest 1%?

    1%?

    Comment by parsnip — 11/24/2008 @ 7:59 pm

    Considering that Obama’s bar for being considered
    “the wealthiest Americans” went from $250,000 all the way down to $120,000 just before the election,I say that a lot of Americans are going to care.

    Raising taxes on the very people who create jobs
    does not sound like a successful way to go in a recession:

    Their Fair Share
    July 21, 2008; Page A12
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121659695380368965.html

    Washington is teeing up “the rich” for a big tax hike next year, as a way to make them “pay their fair share.” Well, the latest IRS data have arrived on who paid what share of income taxes in 2006, and it’s going to be hard for the rich to pay any more than they already do. The data show that the 2003 Bush tax cuts caused what may be the biggest increase in tax payments by the rich in American history.
    The nearby chart shows that the top 1% of taxpayers, those who earn above $388,806, paid 40% of all income taxes in 2006, the highest share in at least 40 years. The top 10% in income, those earning more than $108,904, paid 71%. Barack Obama says he’s going to cut taxes for those at the bottom, but that’s also going to be a challenge because Americans with an income below the median paid a record low 2.9% of all income taxes, while the top 50% paid 97.1%. Perhaps he thinks half the country should pay all the taxes to support the other half.

    All this talk about “tax rebates” for people who pay so little of the taxes is nothing more than redistribution of wealth.It may have gotten a lot more votes since it pandered to a larger volume of the electorate,but it is not going to create jobs or improve the economy by busting the balls of the people who drive the economy:


    Obama’s 95% Illusion

    It depends on what the meaning of ‘tax cut’ is.
    http://wsj.com/article/SB122385651698727257.html

    One of Barack Obama’s most potent campaign claims is that he’ll cut taxes for no less than 95% of “working families.” He’s even promising to cut taxes enough that the government’s tax share of GDP will be no more than 18.2% — which is lower than it is today.
    AP
    It’s a clever pitch, because it lets him pose as a middle-class tax cutter while disguising that he’s also proposing one of the largest tax increases ever on the other 5%. But how does he conjure this miracle, especially since more than a third of all Americans already pay no income taxes at all? There are several sleights of hand, but the most creative is to redefine the meaning of “tax cut.”
    For the Obama Democrats, a tax cut is no longer letting you keep more of what you earn. In their lexicon, a tax cut includes tens of billions of dollars in government handouts that are disguised by the phrase “tax credit.” Mr. Obama is proposing to create or expand no fewer than seven such credits for individuals:

    Smoke and mirrors fed to the people with glorious speeches is going to get real old when the actions
    and facts on the ground don’t match the rhetoric.

    Baxter Greene (8035ae)

  88. the majority realizes they csn just start legislating shit away from the minority

    It’s not that simple, JD.

    The 1% minority has at least as much political power as the 99% majority.

    Can the 1% play their victim card and pull enough strings to blunt this latest political triumph of the majority?

    Probably

    parsnip (1e884c)

  89. BECAUSE OF THE PLATITUDES !!!!!

    JD (5f0e11)

  90. “parsnip illustrates, quite nicely, the danger when the majority realizes they csn just start legislating shit away from the minority.”

    I’d say this danger has been realized all along in our 200 years of history. Like when the majority realized they could just have the minority be slaves. Things have gotten better.

    imdw (8a983a)

  91. parsnip, your claim shows that you do not understand basic economics. Neither Wall Street “bookkeeping” nor the rather small sum of stimulus payments earlier this year had anything to do with GDP – the measure of economic output.

    Please learn some basic economics, because the dearth of economics education in America is a serious problem – and you have only contributed to it.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  92. SPQR, Quigs?

    Da'Shiznit (089453)


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