Patterico's Pontifications

11/16/2008

Taking Your 401(k): A Nobel Idea Supported by Many Noble Prize-Winning Economists

Filed under: Dog Trainer,General,Obama — Patterico @ 10:45 am

In an article about 401(k) plans, and the plans of some Democrats to take them away, the L.A. Times tells us:

But even Noble Prize-winning economists have admitted that they don’t closely monitor their 401(k) statements — allowing an initially well-balanced portfolio to become dangerously overexposed to stocks as those investments grow faster than bonds.

Yeah, but who really cares about the thoughts of an economist whose top honor is winning an engineering prize?

Hooray for the four layers of editors!

On a serious note: James Rainey recently mocked Rush Limbaugh for warning that Democrats have been talking about taking away your 401(k):

In a time when the nation calls out for cool leadership and rational discussion, Limbaugh stirs the caldron, a tendency he proved in a particularly grotesque way last week when he accused Obama’s party of plotting a government takeover of 401(k) retirement plans.

“They’re going to take your 401(k), put it in the Social Security trust fund, whatever the hell that is,” Limbaugh woofed. “Trust fund, my rear end.”

A slight problem with Limbaugh’s report: Obama and the Democrats have proposed no such thing.

The proposal, in fact, emanated from a single economist, one of many experts testifying to a congressional committee.

The president-elect has thus far shown as much interest in taking over your 401(k) as he has in moving the capital to Nairobi.

That may be, but that’s not quite what Rush said. Limbaugh’s specific accusation — that “[h]is [Obama's] party is now talking about a government takeover of 401(k)s” — is supported by today’s front-page article, which tells us:

“The current 401(k) system has not turned out to be as secure as we want it to be,” said Rep. George Miller (D-Martinez), chairman of the House Education and Labor Committee. “It has not provided the returns that we want it to. And it’s not provided the level of savings that we want it to. It’s kind of failing on a number of fronts.

“Should there be a serious reassessment? Absolutely,” he said.

Miller’s committee already has held two hearings on the effects of the financial crisis on retirement savings plans. At one, a professor from New York’s New School for Social Research called for creating government-backed retirement savings accounts that would offer a guaranteed, inflation-adjusted 3% return. The government would contribute to the accounts using money gained by eliminating the annual tax breaks for 401(k) savings — about $80 billion.

The idea has not been embraced by key lawmakers, perhaps in part because abolishing the tax break on 401(k) savings could reduce participation.

But the fact that the idea received a serious hearing before Congress is a measure of how much the crisis has shaken confidence in the 401(k) approach.

“In July, my plan was looked on at best as a noble idea . . . but completely unrealistic,” said the plan’s author, Teresa Ghilarducci, a professor of economic policy analysis at the New School and a longtime critic of 401(k) plans. “I was viewed as thinking out of the box, and now I’m in the box.”

(Doesn’t she mean a “nobel idea”?)

It’s reassuring to know that someone who wants to kill your 401(k) plan considers herself to be “in the box.”

P.S. Rainey is the same guy who told us not to worry about the Fairness Doctrine. They’re not going to take away your 401(k), Rainey assures us, and “nobody” is talking about implementing the Fairness Doctrine. Nobody! [Said in the rushed tones used to disclose onerous loan terms at the end of a radio commercial for refinancing:] ExceptforChuckSchumerJeffBingamanDickDurbinandafewotherDemocratlawmakers.

I imagine Rainey will still be mocking conservatives even after Democrats have convened hearings on the subject, and supporters of the Fairness Doctrine are describing themselves as “in the box.”

172 Responses to “Taking Your 401(k): A Nobel Idea Supported by Many Noble Prize-Winning Economists”

  1. Reason #423 that I no longer read the LA Times.

    SueC (99a8b2)

  2. People who don’t have the knowledge, interest, or time to closely monitor and rebalance their 401(k) plan should seriously consider a target-date fund (sometimes referred to as a Life Cycle fund). They rebalance from all stocks to mostly bonds over time and provide an adequate amount of diversification. All you have to do is pick the fund nearest your stated retirement year (i.e. the 2040 Fund).

    Cankle (794675)

  3. Don’t let up on those four layers of editors. All four layers let pass a headline the other day (in the print edition) that someone was preparing to challenge “Rep.” Boxer in the primaries next round.

    EDM (a24ff8)

  4. “…someone was preparing to challenge “Rep.” Boxer in the primaries next round.”
    Comment by EDM — 11/16/2008 @ #3.

    I am quite certain that “Senator” Boxer, shrinking violet that she is, has personally informed the LA Times in regards to the mis-printing (?) her “pay-grade”.

    C. Norris (f77fbd)

  5. This plan is rather indistinguishable from an expanded Social Security program where all 401(k) accounts are rolled into the current Trust Fund (is “government trust fund” an oxymoron?) to put off the day of reckoning.

    Add to that the new money from an additional 5% payroll deduction and you just get a bigger slush fund for government borrowing. Bet you they “pay” your account with special government bonds.

    And at 3%, you might even double your money in real terms in only 24 years! Pretty sure that you’d beat that even if you invested the day before the 1929 Crash.

    BTW, are these funds mine, to bequeath or spend as I will? Or are they only going to fund an annuity, with higher contributors funding the less fortunate, like Social Security. It sounds pretty bad, but I guess it could always get worse.

    Kevin Murphy (0b2493)

  6. The main problem an “inflation-adjusted” 3.00% bond is that the Federal Government decides how much measurable inflation there is, not the free market, and therefore the Feds completely control how much you’re going to get.

    Secondly, it’s not attractive. On Friday, the 30-year Treasury Bond was priced to yield 4.20%.

    Official Internet Data Office (695396)

  7. “People who don’t have the knowledge, interest, or time to closely monitor and rebalance their 401(k) plan should seriously consider…
    “Comment by Cankle — 11/16/2008 @ #2.

    … a simple retirement savings account with tax free interest on deposits from post tax income. Complexities are built into retirement and investment “programs”, in order for the government to control your money and various professions and companies to “skim” the interest away in “fees”. All retirement plans that involve someone, some company, or some government agency between you and your money are Ponzi schemes, plain and simple.

    C. Norris (f77fbd)

  8. “…professor from New York’s New School for Social Research…”

    Well, there goes Rush again, just regurgitating talking points from the Vast, Right-Wing, Conspiracy!

    Uhhh, the NYNSSR is a RW think-tank, right?

    Another Drew (e3760b)

  9. And at 3%, you might even double your money in real terms in only 24 years! Pretty sure that you’d beat that even if you invested the day before the 1929 Crash.

    Those people got back to even in 1954.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  10. Mmmmm, not quite, AD. Not quite.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  11. Any chance you have the spellings of noble and Nobel reversed?

    Larry Sheldon (86b2e1)

  12. Larry, I’m pretty sure that Patterico has his spellings correct. Perhaps you should follow some of his links?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  13. Comment by SPQR — 11/16/2008 @ 12:58 pm

    Do you mean to say that Rush would report on something produced by someone not from the RW?

    I’m so confused.

    Another Drew (e3760b)

  14. Larry, I’m pretty sure that Patterico has his spellings correct. Perhaps you should follow some of his links?

    Or even just read the whole post? I don’t think you have to follow any links, do you? All the relevant quotes are there.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  15. Patterico, well, I was trying to be helpful …

    SPQR (26be8b)

  16. It’s all Bush’s fault.

    Dmac (e30284)

  17. Rush is one and only pristine dignitary in the field of candor.

    http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1895

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  18. I agree, Dmac.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  19. Yes, Patterico, they got back to even in 1954, but only measured by the Dow Jones Industrial Average, and measured not from the day before the crash (10/26/29) but from the preceding high close(381.17 on 09/03/29).

    Official Internet Data Office (695396)

  20. Alfred Nobel has a noble prize that is rewarded subject to a lot of political maneuvering…

    from a google screen scrape:

    Biographical Accounts
    Alfred Nobel – His Life and Work Alfred Nobel combined the penetrating mind of the … Life and Philosophy of Alfred Nobel Among the papers that Nobel left …
    nobelprize.org/alfred_nobel/biographical/

    Neat site. Keep after the LA LAck

    tom (5a9352)

  21. Rainey is either a liar or completely ignorant on this issue.

    Sara Hansard of Investment News reported the 401k story over a month ago.

    Paul (5705e0)

  22. Maybe I am in the midst of an April Fools deal of some kind. There is talk of taking over the 401k by the FedGov as they want the tax revenue now that is currently collected some time out in the future.
    The CA rep, Miller, denied it on TV/radio, but what he said was an absolute lie if you read his statements later on.
    So they plan on financing money they will pay us back from taxes they take from us. Wow, what a novel idea.
    Jerks.

    tom

    tomw (5a9352)

  23. The forced withdrawal of 401K funds to transfer to the government would cause the DJIA to hit 1,000.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  24. The irony in this scenario is that the origin of the 401K was a necessity, because of the decline of company pensions and the fear that SocSec would eventually become insolvent. Nothing has changed in that dynamic over the past two decades.

    Dmac (e30284)

  25. SPQR – Absolutely. If the decline in the stock market has gotten people concerned over the safety of their retirement accounts and the Democrats feel an attractive alternative is to force people to hand their accounts over to the government, what could go wrong? The forced liquidations of billions and billions (possibly trillions?) of stock investments surely can be absorbed by the market, right? Except where is the buying power coming from? Not new 401(k) money, not necessarily new individual or corporate money with higher tax rates. Maybe foreigners will be buying more U.S. stocks.

    I know, I know, we should just trust them. What could go wrong?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  26. daleyrocks, just letting this float as a trial balloon is extraordinarily irresponsible of these incompetent Democrats.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  27. SPQR – Emily Litella moment?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  28. So, SPQR, ask yourself this question: what are politicians will to sacrifice, for their own political advantage?

    The last four years have shown us.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  29. Comment by SPQR — 11/16/2008 @ 2:26 pm

    Will George Miller be ensconced next to Chucky Schumer in the pantheon of panic-mavens – anyone remember the IndyMacBank letter?

    Another Drew (e3760b)

  30. When ESOPs and 401(k)s became popular the sponsors had to decide what investment options to offer participants. Company matches were usually in employer stock, which in the 1990s and later created to some debacles leading some sponsors to offer diversification options out of employer stock for older employees. For the employee contribution portion, however, most employers with whom I am familiar chose to attempt to minimize fiduciary responsibility for investment performance by offering employees a range of professionally managed alternatives.

    Here the government is assuming that fiduciary responsibility with a one size fits all approach which is innappropriate to the problem. Investments for a 25 year old with 40 years to go to retirement should be different and have a different risk profile than a 60 year old with five years to go before retirement. It’s a meat axe approach where it is not warranted.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  31. Can the Government seize private assets, such as 401ks, without compensation?

    Amphipolis (e6b868)

  32. “Can the Government seize private assets, such as 401ks, without compensation?”

    Amphipolis – The compensation you would get is a balance in your retirement account at the Treasury for your transferred 401(k) assets. The mechanics of “forcing” is unclear. I’ll defer to the lawyers, but I believe the answer is no. The proposal under discussion would eliminate some of the favorable tax attributes of 401(k)s. Whether enough are chanhed to effectively “force” people into the program I can’t answer.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  33. Can the Government seize private assets, such as 401ks, without compensation?

    Sure, if they can come up with a sufficiently clever justification and steam roller the inevitable challenge through the Supreme Court.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  34. Don’t worry, be happy. Obama is going pay for our gas and our mortgages, and now, apparently, our retirements.

    kaf (7ee5e4)

  35. one of the glaring omissions I noticed in the LASlimes story is that among the government-run 401k schemes is that in exchange for “security”, if the participant dies, the government gets at least 50% of the fund.

    Sorry family members … Socialists are determined to beat property rights (and personal liberty) into the ground.

    Darleen (187edc)

  36. “in exchange for “security”, if the participant dies, the government gets at least 50% of the fund”

    Darleen – That’s a really nifty feature. I hope that gets the publicity it deserves.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  37. The will of the individual must be subsumed to the needs of the collective!

    Another Drew (e3760b)

  38. Darleen – Does the 50% of the account that does not go to family members or designated beneficiaries of the deceased go to ACORN or to the Sierra Club?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  39. Can the Government seize private assets, such as 401ks, without compensation?

    Comment by Amphipolis

    Argentina has done it neatly twice. Of course, we aren’t Argentina but by the second term we should be.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  40. … among the government-run 401k schemes is that in exchange for “security”, if the participant dies, the government gets at least 50% of the fund.

    It’s basically an estate tax that would especially impact minorities (blacks and Hispanics) who tend to have shorter lifespans.

    DRJ (a50047)

  41. Racists!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  42. Just another government mechanism to minimize the abilities of the “non-rich” to accumulate wealth that can be passed on to their heirs.

    Another Drew (e3760b)

  43. The will of the individual must be subsumed to the needs of the collective!

    Comment by Another Drew — 11/16/2008 @ 3:14 pm

    Wrong. The will of the individual must be subsumed to the needs of the corporation.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  44. tnj –

    Wrong. The will of the individual must be subsumed to the needs of the UNION.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  45. As the Borg say:

    Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!

    It’s so ironic to me that progressives hate the idea of corporations running anything, but want the government to run things.

    Because government is more honest?

    Because goverment is less interested in lining their pockets?

    As I say, I would laugh, except it really isn’t funny.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  46. The will of the individual must be subsumed to the needs of the corporation.

    So, you finally got your first job!

    Official Internet Data Office (695396)

  47. I know, I know, we should just trust them. What could go wrong?

    Daleyrocks, we are not hijacking this airplane, just remain calm and stay in your seats.

    one of the glaring omissions I noticed in the LASlimes story is that among the government-run 401k schemes is that in exchange for “security”, if the participant dies, the government gets at least 50% of the fund.

    Darleen, it’s our day to converse, (I wrote to you in Jeff’s site as well.) My first thought upon reading this article…what what would happen to the folks who needed to borrow against the money in an emergency? I’m thinking “gulag”, but I could be getting confused.

    Can the Government seize private assets, such as 401ks, without compensation

    Amphipolis, Eminent domain is not limited to real property, although “just compensation” seems to always work in a manner that favors the taker.

    Father Michael Phlegmger has decreed that if you were willing to give back yo daddy’s 401k and yo granddaddy’s 401k, it might even the playing field a bit.

    Leftists sit around munching hash brownies and discussing the implementation of such things, if only they were in charge. This is how “fairness doctrines” and “civilian armies” and “redistribution of income” and the “Final Solution” are birthed.

    Just the same, if any of you guys are one of the 25 million exterminated, can I have your plasma tv?

    cfbleachers (1f4df1)

  48. I’m old, tired, sick, and full of Nyquil.

    I’ll try again tomorrow with a fresh scratch pad.

    Larry Sheldon (86b2e1)

  49. Just the same, if any of you guys are one of the 25 million exterminated, can I have your plasma tv?

    Comment by cfbleachers — 11/16/2008 @ 3:55 pm

    Only if you can pry the remote from my cold, dead hand (be careful of an auto-muscular response from the object in the other hand).

    Another Drew (e3760b)

  50. It’s so ironic to me that progressives hate the idea of corporations running anything, but want the government to run things.

    Because government is more honest?

    Because goverment is less interested in lining their pockets?

    As I say, I would laugh, except it really isn’t funny.

    Comment by Eric Blair — 11/16/2008 @ 3:46 pm

    Well, if you really have to think about which of these two institutions have your best interests in mind then I don’t understand where you’re coming from. Corporate America would p*ss on your grave if they thought it would help the bottom line.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  51. Can the political elite that brought us farm subsidies, the post office, social security and Fannie Mae be wrong?

    Perfect Sense (9d1b08)

  52. It would be a neat trick, worthy of the worst Roman Emperors, for the Government to take over private 401k accounts and just add them to the treasury in exchange for a social security-type IOU.

    A lot of work would have to be done to both the courts and the ability for public outrage to effect change in order to make this happen.

    Amphipolis (e6b868)

  53. Comment by liesntyranny — 11/16/2008 @ 4:02 pm
    Spoken like a true apparatchik!

    Another Drew (e3760b)

  54. quoting Rush? The guy who said Obama would never get the nomination?

    datadave (a50390)

  55. Quoting the Tribune Company, which headlined “Dewey Beats Truman”?

    cfbleachers (1f4df1)

  56. datadave – Don’t you have some light sockets to stick your fingers into or something?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  57. Corporate America would p*ss on your grave if they thought it would help the bottom line.

    I’ve never looked at corporations as any kind of arbitrator of morality. Funny thing, though, I still have the liberty not to participate in anything they offer.

    But proggs demand that Big Nanny government not only define and enforce “social justice” morality but that no one have the liberty to say, “no, thank you.”

    Darleen (187edc)

  58. Another Drew…I don’t want the remote. You can take it with you to the afterlife. (I mean, if there are 72 virgins there, they MUST have free nudey tv, right?)

    I can pick up a universal remote to watch all the state sponsored marching music. I just want to see goosestepping in hi def. Be a sport, AD. If you get exterminated first, I get the plasma.

    If I’m sent to reeducation camp, you get my album collection including Yes (Fragile) and Stairway to Heaven. Deal?

    cfbleachers (1f4df1)

  59. Corporate America would p*ss on your grave if they thought it would help the bottom line.

    And the government doesn’t even wait until your dead to do the same.

    cfbleachers (1f4df1)

  60. your= you’re, of course

    cfbleachers (1f4df1)

  61. Comment by cfbleachers — 11/16/2008 @ 4:21 pm
    Well, two problems old Buddy…
    1- Have LCD, no plasma;
    2- I think we have diametrically opposed tastes in music (those were musical groups you mentioned, weren’t they?).
    Coda…If I go first, I don’t think there will be very much of value left in the old homestead between the shrapnel and fire damage.

    ps…Corporations would only piss on someone’s grave if there were a dollar to be made by selling tickets to the event – otherwise, why bother.
    Government does it just because it can.

    Another Drew (e3760b)

  62. Yeah, Democrats like Barney Frank are looking out for us ( and not working to put his boyfriend into a fat tax-payer subsidized featherbed job ), according to “truthnjustice” – who has just shown his nickname to be as ill chosen as the rest of his commentary.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  63. Well, two problems old Buddy…
    1- Have LCD, no plasma;
    2- I think we have diametrically opposed tastes in music (those were musical groups you mentioned, weren’t they?).
    Coda…If I go first, I don’t think there will be very much of value left in the old homestead between the shrapnel and fire damage.

    Yes…was a musical group…broadly speaking. Stairway to Heaven was an anthem by Led Zepplin. My musical tastes vary…but, I was horsetrading. Dave Brubeck? Leo Kottke? Amazing Rhythm Aces? Warren Zevon?

    LCD is fine, slight damage from hollow points acceptable.

    ps…Corporations would only piss on someone’s grave if there were a dollar to be made by selling tickets to the event – otherwise, why bother.
    Government does it just because it can.

    My point, of course…is the government (especially one unfettered by any meaningful opposition)…doesn’t wait until its citizens are in the grave to begin giving them the Golden Sombrero.

    cfbleachers (1f4df1)

  64. Comment by cfbleachers — 11/16/2008 @ 4:53 pm

    Well, we might find some common ground there.
    But, don’t know how much will be left after asset sales to finance the camp in the “Sierra Maestra”.

    Another Drew (e3760b)

  65. Well, whether they are doing their jobs are not is another discussion, but the government’s function should be the well-being of its citizens.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  66. Well, if you really have to think about which of these two institutions have your best interests in mind then I don’t understand where you’re coming from. Corporate America would p*ss on your grave if they thought it would help the bottom line.

    If you really think government has your best interests in mind, then you’re delusional. The only person who has your best interests in mind is yourself.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  67. but the government’s function should be the well-being of its citizens.

    No, the government’s function is to ensure the rights of its citizens. I’ll cite as my reference the Declaration of Independence.

    Steverino (db5760)

  68. People of the government, by the government, and for the government.

    Amphipolis (e6b868)

  69. Well, whether they are doing their jobs are not is another discussion, but the government’s function should be the well-being of its citizens.

    Not really. The government’s internal function should be to act as a neutral referee, minimally involved in the affairs of its citizens. Externally it should work in the interests of its citizens (against the interests of other nations), but internally it should be neutral.

    Citizens are responsible for their own well-being.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  70. Nonsense, Rob, Obama’s government is going to pay everyone’s mortgage, remember.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  71. Comment by SPQR — 11/16/2008 @ 5:19 pm

    Hey!
    What about my gas?

    Another Drew (e3760b)

  72. 68 – Well if that were true then we would have a serious problem on our hands. The system of caplitalism provides absolutely no incentive for companies to provide anything positive to the citizens of a country.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  73. TMJ writes:

    “…Corporate America would p*ss on your grave if they thought it would help the bottom line…”

    Wow. You really and truly think that government is there to help you, rather than further its own goals?

    Steverino is right about what government should do. But it doesn’t. It is a creature of its own creation.

    Let me put it another way. If you stood between any politician and his or her getting elected, what do you think might happen to you? You might ask Joe the Plumber about that (speaking of issues of privacy and intrusiveness—and I notice that the ACLU stands mute on that subject, incidentally).

    So don’t waste my time claiming that Evil Corporate Entities would drink your blood, but Benevolent Government only wants what is good and sweet for you. You might look up the word “kulak,” for example. Government has no trouble at all starving people to death when it suits their larger goals.

    But hey, you will exclaim, my government is nothing like that. That is the refrain of people who are Lenin’s “useful fools” throughout history. Of which you might want to read a bit, if you don’t mind my saying so.

    I hate quoting Ronald Reagan at you, but it is absolutely true:

    “The more frightening words in the English language are ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help you.’”

    What you don’t get is that government is about government, and not people.

    This is, I’ll bet, because you think that things that the government gives you are free.

    Sometimes free things cost you more than you might expect.

    But hey, we are doing the experiment now. If you are right, great. “Every man a king” and all that (I hope you catch the reference).

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  74. …The system of caplitalism provides absolutely no incentive for companies to provide anything positive to the citizens of a country….

    Oh, my. Somebody has been reading Howard Zinn again.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  75. The system of caplitalism provides absolutely no incentive for companies to provide anything positive to the citizens of a country.

    Oh man.

    Unintended hilarious comment of the day!

    Paul (5705e0)

  76. Basically, truthnjustice, your #71 comment shows that you do not understand capitalism at all. But you have your vapid neo-marxist talking points down cold.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  77. C’mon Paul. All capitalists ever do is exploit the proletariat.

    Of course, that was stated by someone living off his wife’s money, who spent all day in the British Library.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  78. Comment by Eric Blair — 11/16/2008 @ 5:41 pm

    Ha. Joe the plumber…. what a fraud. He hurt McCain more than he helped him. Joe the unlicensed plumber didn’t pay his taxes anyway, so I don’t know why he was b*tching about the amount that he would hypothetically have to pay if he were to make 37 times more per year than he is making now. Yeah, keep pointing to Joe as your hero so those around you will be well aware that you don’t really value honestly or truth in your political discourse.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  79. Rainey is also the same guy who devoted a full column to an obscure survey claiming that the media was showing no bias in favor of Obamma. This, even though two more established pollsters found that the media’s story count indeed heavily favored Obamma. The most recent report came from the respected Project for Excellence in Journalism. I’m still waiting for Rainey’s response.

    James Fulton (9f59df)

  80. 75 Were you quoting Mussolini with that one?

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  81. truthnjustice, actually your focus on Joe the Plumber shows some more of the lack of principles that characterize the Democratic party of today. The Democratic party’s method of dealing with Joe’s challenge was to discredit Joe, with illegal snooping in his records and intimidation.

    Hilarious that you think that Joe was a negative to McCain given the behavior of the Obama campaign and its thug surrogates.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  82. The system of caplitalism provides absolutely no incentive for companies to provide anything positive to the citizens of a country.

    Try reading Adam Smith’s The Wealth of Nations.

    Seriously, do you understand that capitalism is what people do on their own when government leaves them alone? Do you understand that the role of government in trade is to ensure a common medium of exchange (we call it “money”)?

    Microsoft is a corporation. It sells software to computer users. It doesn’t do it out of the goodness of its heart, it does it to make a buck. Yet the software it sells has enabled people everywhere to become more productive and to do things they were previously unable to do. Is that not positive?

    Steverino (db5760)

  83. The system of caplitalism provides absolutely no incentive for companies to provide anything positive to the citizens of a country.

    oh.good.lord.

    um, cluebat:

    Citizens have the liberty to choose what is best for themselves, thus the incentive to capitalists to fulfill those choices.

    You don’t care for some of your neighbors choices? Then it is up to you to persuade them differently and offer them the difference yourself.

    Using the government as your Big Brother to beat those inconvenient neighbors into submission is not consistent with Liberty.

    Darleen (187edc)

  84. Joe the unlicensed plumber

    Add construction trade practices to the list that truthnjustice is ignorant about.

    didn’t pay his taxes anyway, so I don’t know why he was b*tching about the amount that he would hypothetically have to pay if he were to make 37 times more per year than he is making now.

    This comment was refuted before truthnjustice hit “submit.”

    Paul (5705e0)

  85. Hilarious that you think that Joe was a negative to McCain given the behavior of the Obama campaign and its thug surrogates.

    If Joe was really a negative, all the Obama campaign had to do was get out of the way and let him bring down McCain.

    But noooooooooooooo. They had to resort to smear tactics and criminal activity.

    Paul (5705e0)

  86. The idea that Joe the plumber’s tax payment history was a problem for the GOP while Al Franken was the Democrats nominee for Senator in Minnesota shows what a flaming idiot truthnjustice is.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  87. But, but, but we all know that these ideas are only meant to do what’s in our own better interests, don’t you know?

    The automobile industry is proving that the old form of pensions — essentially being paid a wage after you’ve retired — can’t work forever. With 401(k) plans, you are actually seeing money (some yours, and some your employer’s) put into a fund for your retirement. That works, but because it works, and is, in effect, outside of the taxation system (though you still pay Social Security and Medicare taxes on it), the government wants the money.

    The government did make provisions for the Roth IRA, in which contributions to the IRA would not be tax deductible, but the money wouldn’t be taxed when withdrawn. I wouldn’t have a problem with the same option being applied to 401(k) plans.

    The Dana with a 401(k) (556f76)

  88. The idea that Joe the plumber’s tax payment history was a problem for the GOP while Al Franken was the Democrats nominee for Senator in Minnesota shows what a flaming idiot truthnjustice is.

    I forgot about that, SPQR. Inexcuseable for me, since I live in Minnesota, and have a front row seat to Franken attempting to steal the election.

    Paul (5705e0)

  89. *Inexcusable

    Paul (5705e0)

  90. The system of caplitalism provides absolutely no incentive for companies to provide anything positive to the citizens of a country.

    I’ve tried three times to compose a coherent comment to this astounding statement but all I can cough out is, seriously?

    Aside from your definition of capitalism being rathers askew, what would you prefer?

    Dana (79a78b)

  91. Ha. Criminal activity. So if the IRS comes after you for not paying taxes, its actually the IRS that are criminals? What a strange sense of reality you have.

    And, of course Joe the skinhead had to be refuted in order to bring down McCain’s campaign… but once he was… look out. My dad lives in Toledo and he told me that Joe was a complete joke around the town. Nobody respected that guy who wasn’t already voting McCain. Independents didn’t identify with a guy who whined about taxes he neer paid. As taxpayers yourselves, how do you justify holding up somebody who is not doing his part as a hero? Is this something that I would have to go to the bizarro Earth on the other side of the sun to understand?

    I am glad you mentioned Adam Smith. Here is what he has to say about taxes:

    The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  92. I’ve tried three times to compose a coherent comment to this astounding statement

    Don’t bother, Dana.

    That comment should be emblazoned on a plaque and hung in the Economics Wing of the Moron Museum.

    Paul (5705e0)

  93. Truthnjustice is now completely ignoring the illegal accesses made to Joe the plumber’s records by at least six different governmental agencies.

    Truthnjustice excuses criminal conduct by Obama’s surrogates because Democrats have no principles left.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  94. Ha. Don’t actually comment, just call me a moron. Excellent.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  95. Musso: I assume that you have arrests and official police reports for these allegations, right? Oh, you don’t. Weird. No proof for those assertions. Par for the course, Benito, par for the course.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  96. I am glad you mentioned Adam Smith. Here is what he has to say about taxes:

    Nice attempt at deflection. We weren’t talking about taxes, we were talking about your idiotic statement regarding incentives.

    Steverino (db5760)

  97. Criminal activity. So if the IRS comes after you for not paying taxes, its actually the IRS that are criminals? What a strange sense of reality you have.

    Oh, so you think that illegal snooping into files for political gain that are only used for clearly-defined legal matters is perfectly fine?

    I hope you haven’t ripped the Patriot Act, because not only would you be an idiot on this thread, you are also a fraud.

    My dad lives in Toledo and he told me that Joe was a complete joke around the town.

    Ah yes, the irrefutable personal anecdote.

    As taxpayers yourselves, how do you justify holding up somebody who is not doing his part as a hero?

    Two words: Al Franken.

    Hypocrite.

    I am glad you mentioned Adam Smith. Here is what he has to say about taxes:

    So how come you didn’t provide a link? Afraid we’re going to discover you ripped Smith comments out of context?

    Paul (5705e0)

  98. Ha. Don’t actually comment, just call me a moron. Excellent.

    I referred to your statement, not you overall.

    Someone who isn’t a moron would know the difference.

    I suspect you know the difference, but are being disingenuous.

    Paul (5705e0)

  99. truthnjustice, back to smearing people to cover your lies and dishonesty I see. Your repetition of your little Mussolini crack is par for the course for slimebags like yourself.

    There are several news reports of investigations of the illegal accesses of Joe the plumber’s records. Illegal conduct you endorse.

    You’ve repeatedly shown your utter lack of principle and your endorsement of illegal activity for political gain. And you call me a fascist? How droll but how typical of leftist thugs like yourself.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  100. Yeah, Patrick, you’re right, from 9/29 to 9/54 was a wash judged by the DJIA, for what that’s worth. 1964-1988 was also less than 3% per annum on the Dow.

    And nearly any other time chosen at random would have been far better over 24 years. And never mind that the Dow is imperfect to measure things of this sort. The US of 1929 was wildly poorer than the US of 1954, yet the Dow doesn’t note that.

    Kevin Murphy (0b2493)

  101. More coverage of illegal accesses to state records of Joe the plumber all with nothing but approval from “truthnjustice”.

    Obviously “truthnjustice” is interested in little truth and less justice.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  102. Musso: I assume that you have arrests and official police reports for these allegations, right?

    Nice strawman!

    An investigation is underway and the people responsible were put on paid administrative leave.

    By the way, the person who headed up this “inquiry” into is a max Obama donor.

    But you knew that already, right?

    Paul (5705e0)

  103. You will note that the Democrats are NOT suggesting replacing the equally cratered public employee funds with a program of this sort. Instead, they want the taxpayer to cover public pension losses. Maybe we should roll those funds into Social Security and unify the systems.

    Kevin Murphy (0b2493)

  104. Paul, not merely a strawman, but the assertion that unless I have copies of police reports themselves, then this didn’t happen …

    but oddly truthnjustice does not think he has to provide such for his claims about Joe the Plumber’s alleged tax liability.

    This game of creating burdens of proof for others that he has no intention of meeting for his own rhetoric is just another sign of “truthnjustice’s” fundamental dishonesty.

    Well, that and his endorsement of illegal intimidation of dissent. We know who the real fascist is, do we not?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  105. Maybe we should roll those funds into Social Security and unify the systems.

    They won’t. Merely suggesting such an action to the State of California’s public employee funds was the tipping point for the recall of Gray Davis.

    Paul (5705e0)

  106. Comment by SPQR — 11/16/2008 @ 6:43 pm

    You mean “liesntyranny” don’t you?

    Another Drew (e3760b)

  107. Another Drew, evidently so given the little fascist’s fondness for names.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  108. Comment by SPQR — 11/16/2008 @ 6:55 pm

    But, don’t you remember, he teaches physics, and is a mechanical engineer?
    He are a educamater.

    Another Drew (e3760b)

  109. Another Drew, yah you can see how convinced I am of that.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  110. “The system of caplitalism provides absolutely no incentive for companies to provide anything positive to the citizens of a country.”

    Such rich, chewy, idiocy it’s almost a meal in itself.

    The lad fails to realize that corporations which repeatedly screw their customers ultimately find themselves without customers and out of business.

    Corporations which continue to screw their employees ultimately find themselves without employees as workers leave to find greener pastures to work in elsewhere.

    Ergo, corporations must do something positive in a capitalist system to survive.

    Freaking asshat.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  111. Are there really people still out there on this anti-corporation jag? Absolutely infantile.

    cfbleachers (1f4df1)

  112. cfbleachers – I was out for a while. I just wanted to pile on. I don’t know who is still teaching or preaching this crap these days.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  113. TMJ (yet another Troll du Jour) writes:

    “..Yeah, keep pointing to Joe as your hero so those around you will be well aware that you don’t really value honestly or truth in your political discourse….”

    Now, other people have rightly toasted you to a even crunchy earth tone, but you need more schoolin’.

    First, I strongly suspect you are yet another undergraduate trustifarian avoiding 8 AM classes and laying around your dorm room eating cheetoh, playing the aptly named Wii, and sparking up weed. You certainly sound like someone who feels quite entitled yet has not worked much.

    Maybe you are a older fellow who has worked all his life to support his family. You see, I could be wrong. But what is more wrong is what you wrote.

    Your deflection post wasn’t the point. The point, as you know very well, is that Obama fans used the power of the state to investigate this guy for the horrific crime of making President Elect Obama look foolish with that “…spread the wealth around…” nonsense.

    Which, again, is ironic coming from a guy getting sweetheart loans from felons, with kids in private school, telling us how we all need to spread the wealth around. That is what your government-love is all about: someone telling other people what to do. Except you think you and your friends will be the ones doing the telling.

    Trust me, you will be the ones being told. That is why government loves voters like you.

    But that isn’t the topic, any more than your attempts to deflect the point were.

    The point was, again, that folks used the power of the state to very probably illegally investigate this man…yet representatives of that same party (and you, I would wager) are all weepy about telephone taps on suspected terrorists.

    So it isn’t and never has been about privacy. It’s about partisanship. And the point you REALLY don’t get is that if you allow people you like to trample on the rights of someone you don’t like, be prepared for people you don’t like to claim that right later on toward you.

    You are all for government having great power…but you sure didn’t like that government with GW Bush in charge. Pendulums swing.

    The government that governs best, governs least. For precisely the reasons that we are trying to get into your trollish debate-club brain.

    Put aside straw-man partisanship and think about reciprocity. Imagine the laws and powers you want President Obama to wield in the hands of, oh I don’t know, Sarah Palin.

    Whoops!

    Instead of trying to insult this Joe character (the skinhead line, the likely mythical claims of what “everybody” in Toledo says about him, etc), why not try saying that you don’t care for his politics, but the Obama supporters who did a privacy-colonoscopy on him should be prosecuted for illegal invasion of privacy? That would really give you the moral high ground.

    Particularly from someone who repeatedly claims that insults take away from the veracity of argumentation.

    Eric Blair (0ed61d)

  114. So now you assume that Al Franken is a personal hero of mine for the purposes of your counter-attack. Morons. You can’t actually defend Joe the plumber’s inability to be honest about his own tax history so you have to assume something about me that you’re not sure of… are you positive you want to frame your argument in that way?

    Eric Blaire: I have been commenting on this site for a while, so I am not the ‘troll du jour’. Since you started out your entire argument with a false assumption, I did not read any of the garbage that followed. Start out with something accurate and maybe I’ll read the rest of it.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  115. Trust me, you will be the ones being told. That is why government loves voters like you.

    So I just came back and read that part. I think that line was pretty amusing. The book ‘Conservatives Without Conscious’ asserts that it is the conservative voters who tend to have the personality that fits best under the authoritarian, ‘tell me what to do’, regime.

    The personality type is defined by nine traits that were believed to cluster together as the result of psychodynamic, childhood experiences. These traits are conventionalism, authoritarian submission, authoritarian aggression, anti-intraception, superstition and stereotypy, power and “toughness,” destructiveness and cynicism, projectivity, and exaggerated concerns over sex.

    Yep, you can check pretty much every one of these items off as conservative traits. Don’t sell me that garbage about my government telling me how to think, when it is yours that has been doing that for the past 20 years.

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  116. Check that, 30 years.

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  117. Actually, when you wingers think about it…. Isn’t this what you wanted? You wanted to make Social Security into a stock-based portfolio– and perhaps (not even remotely possible yet) since 401K’s were the Right’s preferred pension plan… you’ll get your way through the centrist administration of Obama’s(?)

    think about it!

    datadave (a50390)

  118. Hmmm, TMJ…

    Maybe I should call you “Long Term and Frequent Troll” instead. I mean, based on the definition of the term “troll.”

    Anyway, when I read your multiple comments on my own statement, I had one thought: project much?

    Because you are, you know.

    Eric Blair (0ed61d)

  119. You wanted to make Social Security into a stock-based portfolio

    Straw man alert! Deliberate mischaracterization of the position.

    What conservatives wanted was to remove our retirement plans from the control of government.

    Try stating the position honestly next time.

    Steverino (db5760)

  120. truthnjustice, you keep trying to avoid the actual issue. That your claim of the significance of Joe the Plumber’s tax payments is false given that the Democrats ran a nominee for Minnesota Senator who has failed to pay taxes to several orders of magnitude greater than Joe; that Rep. Rangel can’t pay his taxes to the tune of several more orders of magnitude, and that Joe was not running for office.

    Further, while calling me names, you continue to condone illegal snooping of Joe’s records and the kind of thuggish intimidation of dissent that we know marks the real fascist.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  121. 68 – Well if that were true then we would have a serious problem on our hands. The system of caplitalism provides absolutely no incentive for companies to provide anything positive to the citizens of a country.

    Comment by truthnjustice

    I missed most of the fun with this undergraduate but it is interesting that this level of ignorance about life and economics resides in a body that is willing to post repeated comments in public with a blithe disregard for looking the fool.

    These kids think that “corporations” live in a world where they collect money from someone without any need to actually make a product or sell it to a consumer. The Detroit automakers may have shared his foolishness. And maybe, in the world of Obama, they are correct. Fascism is the corporate state. Even there, the state had to produce something or it would end up like Zimbabwe.

    HIs comments about Joe the Plumber show how little experience in the world he has. Eric has probably hit the nail on the head. He is sitting in his dorm room doing battle with a world he does not understand. Some day, he will have to find a job once Dad in Toledo has had his fill of the slacker. Then he may learn about an Obama economy.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  122. The system of caplitalism provides absolutely no incentive for companies to provide anything positive to the citizens of a country.

    tmj – I see you have not even bothered to try to defend this abject idiocy.

    Explain Joe the Plumber’s tax history to us, tmj. Presumably, you know of the circumstances involved in his tax lien.

    JD (b96a9e)

  123. Merely passing this bill out of a Committee would be enough to absolutely demolish the Dow.

    JD (b96a9e)

  124. By the way, I should point out MY 401(k) has been 100% in cash and bonds since early September. Government-run retirement accounts, such as CalPERS, were still in stocks, real estate and mortgages at last report.

    Why on Earth would I want them running my investments? Physician, heal thyself!

    Kevin Murphy (0b2493)

  125. I still fail to see what Joe the Plumber’s ANYTHING has to do with his having asked Obama about taxation and spreading the wealth. Obama never has to justify his various plans, reneged promises, associations, abandonment of his own extended family despite promises to help, as in the case of the Kenyan school. Not sure what Obama ever accomplished in the Senate what he did or didn’t do to justify being #2 cash recipient from Fannie/Freddie scam, and that in a few short years. The American public is absolutely ignorant despite the evidence right there of Dodd, Obama and Kerry or Barney Frank over in the House. Not to mention various Obama lackeys getting filthy rich while “working” at Fannie/Freddie. When is 60 Minutes doing an expose on incompetent Jamir Gorelick? Surely Lucy Ramirez has some dirt on her?

    Clueless Joe Biden is never called on his ignorance of American history or his being wrong time and again on foreign policy measures. At least the bigoted prick is now off the Judicial committee.

    And the leftards right here endlessly attacking Palin are blind to the comparisons in experience between Obama and Palin or how one sucks up to special interests, crooks, racists, unrepetenant terrorists with a commie schooling agenda and never goes againts his party or the Chicago machine, meanwhile blind to illegal credit card campaign collections.
    And still, some on the right are hopeful that Obama will be good for America???? All of a sudden he will change his stripes?? Yeah, right.

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  126. Once they go after the 401K, they will then go after the Roth’s, the 529′s, etc …

    JD (b96a9e)

  127. From each according to his abilities,
    To each according to his needs.

    You will be assigned housing Comrade, and we will tell you where to report for work!

    Another Drew (a9bf4b)

  128. and another thing…

    We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us.”

    Another Drew (a9bf4b)

  129. HIs comments about Joe the Plumber show how little experience in the world he has. Eric has probably hit the nail on the head. He is sitting in his dorm room doing battle with a world he does not understand. Some day, he will have to find a job once Dad in Toledo has had his fill of the slacker. Then he may learn about an Obama economy.

    Comment by Mike K — 11/17/2008 @ 7:25 am

    What is with conserva-crazies’ constant hatred for all things academic? Is the concept of knowledge dangerous to them?

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  130. We do not hate academics. We just cringe when people like you represent what the Left would consider to be academic thought.

    JD (b96a9e)

  131. Junior Detective, I recommend you immediately cease any talk about academic thought. And you may pretend to speak for the entire group when you say you do not hate academics, but the fact that you loathe anything and everything academic seems to say something about you.

    Remember, the young overwhelmingly voted Obama. Remember, the educated overwhelmingly voted Obama.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  132. I do not hate or loathe academics, tmj. It does piss me off when you attribute thoughts and feelings to me that do not exist outside of your imagination.

    JD (b96a9e)

  133. That’s “indoctrinated”, not “educated”, race-card player.

    Icy Truth (aedb2f)

  134. Icy – That kind of mendoucheousness is all it has.

    JD (b96a9e)

  135. As Dennis Prager would say (paraphrasing):
    That kind of idocy can only be found in a mental institution, or graduate school.

    Another Drew (a9bf4b)

  136. They must be teaching something correctly in college. :-)

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  137. I see truthnjustice is back to telling people what they can comment upon. That’s what happens to dissent in Obama-land.

    SPQR (72771e)

  138. How ‘educated’ do you have to be in order to fall for a one-word campaign slogan? And what a change it’s going to be: from George Bush’s team, which included many Washington outsiders, to Obama’s team, which consists almost entirely of Washington insiders.

    There’s the ‘new politics’ for ya.

    Icy Truth (aedb2f)

  139. SPQR – Not only is it doing that, but it is telling other people what they think.

    JD (b96a9e)

  140. JD, at the same time it whines about such conduct in others.

    The cognitive dissonance … it hurts! It hurts!

    SPQR (72771e)

  141. Unfortunately, SPQR, cognitive dissonance does not seem to effect them. No conscience, no pain.

    JD (b96a9e)

  142. If they ever pass a “projection tax”….

    Another Drew (a9bf4b)

  143. It would be one of the most regressive taxes known to man, and would put many a troll in the poorhouse.

    JD (b96a9e)

  144. Academia is not knowledge, if it is attached to a cultish obedience to a singular point of view.

    It is even less tied to knowledge and the art of seeking knowledge, if it twists, distorts and bends facts in order to find its own preordained “truth”.

    Cultism is not “knowledge” it’s the absence of critical thought. The “message” isn’t “truth” it’s the elimination of all dissent.

    And the only ones who find it impossible to understand the above…are the afflicted and brainwashed.

    cfbleachers (1f4df1)

  145. Man, you guys still are having trouble with your pronouns. I can tell you aren’t quite as educated as I am. I use them correctly.

    Spicy Poop: A lot more people ‘fell’ for that campaign slogan than the ‘no change necessary’ slogan of McCain’s…. so I suggest you change your tunes. There was a great article in Time about the new democratic rule of this generation. You guys better settle in for a long painful absence from power.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  146. I would bet that the majority of people here have as many or more degrees than you, and from better schools, tmj.

    new democratic rule of this generation.

    Freudian slip? We govern in the United States.

    JD (b96a9e)

  147. cflbleachers, actually the problem is more a matter of an obsession with credentialing rather than learning. Quite common with the education majors. Probably the Education doctorate is the most devalued, faux “degree” as an example.

    SPQR (72771e)

  148. JD, not the first time an Obama cultist has used the trappings of authoritarianism to discuss the upcoming administration. Nor the last I’ll bet.

    SPQR (72771e)

  149. Junior Detective… I have no idea what you’re talking about. Are we counting the six colleges that Palin had to attend before she found one that would give her a degree as ‘good’ schools?

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  150. And the Obama Youth Leader dives for another non sequitur.

    SPQR (72771e)

  151. tmj – You said you were more educated than everyone around here.

    I can tell you aren’t quite as educated as I am.

    I said that it is likely that you are not, not in degrees, or quality of insitution where the degrees came from. Palin has nothing to do with this. That was not even a good attempt to deflect the conversation.

    JD (b96a9e)

  152. SPQR, obsession is clearly an issue, but we may debate over “credentialing” vs. “clubbing”.

    My premise, is that, as with most cults, academia is more intensely focused upon recruitment into the cult and becoming an “accepted member of the club” than it is with any serious expansion of the mind.

    In fact, cultism is a retraction of the mind, the polar opposite of expansion of thought.

    If one must adhere slavishly to the talking points, singular point of view, be “mother henned” from any exposure to differing viewpoints, then one is “credentialed” by being a rote memorizing, slogan chanting, one lever thinker.

    Acad-anemia is the weakening of the red blood flow and loss of oxygen to advanced critical thinking processes of the brain.

    Myopia follows this hypoxia. This inability to even see another point of view, is only one of the first, milder symptoms.

    Progressive disease can go all the way to full blown derangement over even the mention of an opposing point of view. “Progressives” are the ones most seriously affected, thus the name.

    cfbleachers (1f4df1)

  153. Comment by Junior D

    I thought it was a good comment, and I didn’t vote for a college drop out and a guy who can’t fly a plane. So, I win.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  154. truthnjustice, those are the kind of classy comments we expect from academics. Sneering at people who have accomplished far more than you have and shown orders of magnitude more character than you have.

    SPQR (72771e)

  155. You don’t know what I’ve accomplished, Benito.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  156. truthnjustice, well the lack of character is conceded by you obviously.

    As for accomplishments, the confidence level is pretty high that someone like you sneering at a carrier qualified jet pilot as “a guy who can’t fly a plane” has no accomplishments of his own.

    Well, other than your toilet training certificate that your mommy framed.

    SPQR (72771e)

  157. SPQR and JD

    Speaking of not knowing what his grades were in high school (albeit, he admitted not very good), and not knowing what his grades were at Occidental (albeit, he admitted not very good) and not knowing what his grades were at Columbia, (although clearly not high enough to gain entrerance to any notable law school based upon merit with even the AVERAGE competition)…

    Debbie Schlussel has this on some other aspec of why we don’t know if he could “fly a plane”…since she points out some issues with his registration.

    http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2008/11/exclusive_did_n.html

    I don’t know what to make of this…any more than what to make of the birth certificate stuff. Since so much is hidden, secreted, locked away, unvetted….it leads to all kinds of theories.

    I just don’t know if he dropped out or graduated…since only one of the candidates had the globes to actually…you know…show us.

    cfbleachers (1f4df1)

  158. He made it through an entire 20 months of presidential campaigning. He has been vetted. No news source would sit on any legitimate story about the next president, no matter how many conspiracy theories you author and post on this site.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  159. I thought it was a good comment …(insert non sequiter).. .So, I win.

    Really persuasive argument there …

    college drop out and a guy who can’t fly a plane

    Did she, or did she not, earn a degree? Can’t fly a plane? That was 2 lies in one non sequiter. Kudos.

    JD (b96a9e)

  160. He made it through an entire 20 months of presidential campaigning. He has been vetted.

    That you and the media chose not to ask, nor require tough questions does not mean he was vetted. Stating that he was vetted does not make it so.

    Were he not elected, I would be willing to bet that he could not pass a standard DoD security clearance screening for a TS clearance.

    No news source would sit on any legitimate story about the next president

    Except the LA Times did exactly that with the Khalidi/Ayers/Obama tapes. Oops.

    JD (b96a9e)

  161. Rush doesn’t count as the media. There is a reason why only 2% of the population thinks he is a legitimate source of news. Anybody else who listens to him is doing it for laughs. Ask them. They are laughing at Rush… and you.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  162. “Rush doesn’t count as the media.”

    tnj – Please tell that to Oiram.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  163. I didn’t vote for a college drop out and a guy who can’t fly a plane.

    No, you voted for a pathological liar and a plagiarist. Good on you.

    Steverino (db5760)

  164. cfbleachers – I read that story from Schlussel last week. It’s interesting. Has there been any reaction from the left of which you are aware, apart from the usual flaming in Debbie’s comments?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  165. tnj – Having studied science, I’m sure you’re aware that evolution and natural selection usually takes care of folks like you. How did you manage to slip through the cracks? You’re like a coelacanth, dude.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  166. A lot of people voted for them. Good on us!

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  167. Well, at least it will be easy to pin blame for the mess.
    Just look for an Obama/Biden bumper sticker.

    Another Drew (a9bf4b)

  168. daleyrocks

    I saw it over at Bob Owens’ site and that’s the first I had heard of it. I hadn’t paid much attention to the birth certificate issue or this issue because I don’t know what to make of them.

    Volokh and LGF think they are tinfoil hat nonsense. But only an imbecile would suggest that the entrenched media “vetted” President-elect Obama. That notion is laughable on its face.

    They had to forge documents about President Bush and his military experience, they didn’t even bother to find documents about Senator Obama during the campaign. Hell, they didn’t even ask.

    Clearly, there is something within the Columbia records, likely something in the Occidental records, there “may” be something in the birth records that will give rise to more questions. Otherwise, there is absolutely no reason to hide them with such ferocity.

    How meaningful these documents might prove to be upon their discovery…nobody knows.

    Braindead cultists will suggest that there is “nothing” to look at, move along. We simply don’t know and we can’t know.

    Debbie’s findings are enough to raise legitimate questions, in my opinion. They don’t give any answers…yet.

    The more interesting thought question…is what if we found that there was a technical violation of standing to run for national office. I think before the swearing in…gives us one answer.

    However, if these issues come to light after the inauguration…(every shred of evidence will be buried so deep, it will never be found), what would be the process?

    Just as a thought exercise…would Biden automatically become President? (shudder)

    Would the entire election be overturned? And what if it was based solely on the fact that his mother could not get back from Kenya in time to have him in Hawaii? And for other technical reasons, …he was technically not eligible?

    What a mess. But this is what happens when rules are treated as suggestions. Campaign financing was merely a suggestion in this election. Foreign donation prohibitions were merely suggestions. Requring a full transcript of your resume’ is not not even a part of the application process for the highest position in the land.

    Really…it’s sort of a sad joke. Leftists have made a mockery out of voter registration laws. They have made a mockery out of virtually every aspect of how we elect a person for the highest office in our country. Not one single aspect of the election had its rules followed.

    Truth? Justice? What a cruel hoax.

    cfbleachers (1f4df1)

  169. 167 -why would you switch now? I always look for the bush/cheney 2004 stifker. Those dillweeds should have known better than to vote for that clown again…. but they did. At least you guys can claim that he (almost) won one election, eh?

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  170. sticker*

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  171. Comment by liesntyranny — 11/17/2008 @ 5:59 pm

    Certification of the Election for President of the United States by the Congress of the United States for the term beginning 20 Jan 2001;

    Certification of the Election for the President of the United States by the Congress of the United States for the term beginning 20 Jan 2005.

    Another Drew (a9bf4b)

  172. Nope, not buying it Drew.

    Norm (3d65f9)


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