Examples of Obama’s Decency
I’ve had some people demanding evidence — any evidence — that Obama is a decent or good man. I’ve learned as a lawyer and a blogger that you can’t convince someone who resists being convinced, and on the issue of Obama’s positive qualities, there is literally nothing I can point to that can’t be dismissed as Obama’s posturing for political benefit. But I think this is a pretty good example:
Barack Obama once said:
Too many fathers are MIA. Too many fathers are AWOL. They’ve abandoned their responsibilities. They’re acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our family have suffered because of it. You and I know this is true everywhere, but nowhere is it more true than in the African-American community.
He also said:
We need fathers to recognize their responsibility doesn’t just end at conception. Any fool can have a child. It’s the courage to raise a child that makes you a father.
It took courage to say these things. Bill Cosby said similar things and was pilloried by blacks. Jesse Jackson reacted to Obama’s comments by saying of Obama: “I want to cut his nuts off.” A white candidate saying such things risked being labeled a racist; a black candidate risked being labeled an Uncle Tom.
Obama, to his credit, said these things and got away with it. When I blogged about this in July, I said:
[I]t’s wonderful that he said these things. America has been waiting for years for a politician to say this in a non-racist way — a way that fully acknowledges this country’s history of racial prejudice, but also insists that black Americans move beyond it and take responsibility for their families. It probably did take a black politician to say that. That he said it is a very good thing.
Conservatives should applaud Obama’s words, and resist the urge to reflexively find glee in the spectacle of a public figure like Jackson bashing Obama in such a vulgar way.
I oppose Obama because I don’t like what much of what he stands for. But on this issue, in the language I quote above, he’s right.
Another example: Obama consistently reacted to boos of John McCain by telling his crowd: don’t boo. Vote.
This appears to have been his standard response.
The people who don’t want to be convinced that Obama is a decent guy will dismiss this too, as they dismiss any similar evidence of Obama’s decency. They would prefer to see Obama flagellate himself; they see that he has found a way to turn the booing to his own advantage, and are offended by that fact.
Well, guess what? He’s a canny politician, and he found a way to neutralize the ugliness and turn it into something positive for his candidacy. But the key thing is this: he had a campaign that was nominally conducted on a higher plane. (It wasn’t, always, but it mostly was.) This was easier for him to do than it is for most, because he was running against a man seen as representing the policies of the least popular President in memory. But he still did it — and he enforced the higher plane by consistently calming booers at his rallies.
Also, when it emerged that Sarah Palin’s daughter was pregnant, Obama also clearly said the topic should be off-limits:
Sen. Barack Obama said firmly that families are off-limits in the campaign for president, reacting to news that GOP running mate Sarah Palin’s 17-year-old daughter is pregnant.
“Let me be as clear as possible,” Obama said. “I think people’s families are off-limits, and people’s children are especially off-limits. This shouldn’t be part of our politics. It has no relevance to Gov. Palin’s performance as governor or her potential performance as a vice president.”
Obama said reporters should “back off these kinds of stories” and noted that he was born to an 18-year-old mother.
People who want to believe Obama is a bad guy can dismiss this, too, as the politic response. But he didn’t have to go as far as he did. He could simply have said “no comment.” He could have tossed in a (misguided but effective) jab about abstinence-only education. He didn’t have to talk about his mother.
Those who don’t want to be convinced of Obama’s decency will say that he should have denounced the ridiculous rumors about Trig Palin’s parentage. I think it was better for him to leave that particular rumor alone, and not add fuel to the fire.
I think Obama handled the incident with class, and Americans appreciated it.
Those of you who read only conservative blogs may already be aware of all of this, but I’m certain that some of you aren’t. Because some of you have specifically said that you never heard of Obama taking decent actions like the ones I describe above. But he has.
Finally, Obama appears to be a decent family man who loves his wife and children — and, as far as we know, hasn’t cheated on his wife. (Yes, there are fever-swamp rumors to the contrary, but there were rumors like that about Palin, too. Unless those rumors are proved, I’ll assume they’re not true.) It’s a shame when it seems like this quality is becoming rarer, but it is: ask Bill Clinton, or John Edwards, or Eliot Spitzer, or Larry Craig, or Antonio Villaraigosa, or 50 other guys like them.
This, too, is evidence of Obama’s decency and goodness.
I have said many times that I’m not blind to the other side of the coin. Obama played the race card on more than one occasion. He said false things about John McCain. He has associated with some sleazy and awful people for political advantage. And the list goes on. Again, we’re not talking about a perfect guy.
But we’re not talking about an evil or a bad man either. We’re talking about a good and decent man, who has done some bad things, and who believes in far-left policies that will harm this country.
At this point, we’ll be better off if we focus on the policies. And that’s the last thing I intend to say on this subject.
Ditto!
C. Norris (226e93) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:15 amA sad commentary on the damage that “political correctness” has done to this country: Merely stating an obvious fact – i.e., “more black men need to take care of their children” – is characterized as a “courageous” act.
Bubba Maximus (456175) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:15 amWe don’t care about what he says, “You hippoObamic lion bass”, we care about what he does!
Talk is cheap, especially when there are a million, and I use the term advisedly, ‘journalists’ who are willing to cover his back, and attack Palin anyway. Did Obama deny access to the press that attacked Sarah Palin? No, he denied access to those in the press who attacked him. Obama could have eaten a dead baby on the capitol steps and the media would have reported on Obama’s slimming diet.
What has he done that shows him to be a good man? What exactly the fuck has he DONE that leads you to believe that he is a good man?
Oh, and lets consider your “Chris Rock” defense of Obama’s treatment of his family. He loves his kids and is faithful to his wife. “YOU’RE SUPPOSED TOO!!”
Jack (d9cbc5) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:18 amYou had months/years to focus on his policies. Conservatives didn’t, because conservatives know they have no authority or credibility on any policy issues. No, you chose another road; racist fear-mongering.
It’s going to be fun watching your side over the next four years pretending that Obama is a bad President.
chicken marsala (e14852) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:19 amI pressed enter by mistake on my previous post.
The Chris Rock defense of behavior you supposed to do. It is another racist double standard. Wanting credit for stuff your supposed to do.
I want to hear your explanation to your daughter when she asks why she has to do 50 hours of mandated community service to graduate high school, after the inevitable indoctrination session about why she is a racist by virtue of the fact that she is white.
AS for the ‘boos’, the only thing they were doing was cutting into his speaking time. Here’s a question, did Obama ever try to quiet the crowd when they were chearing him?
Jack (d9cbc5) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:27 amEveryone is a one issue voter.
Mine:
Anyone who can oppose the Born Alive Infants Protection Act is evil. Evil, by definition, removes a person from the ranks of decent people.
At risk of invoking Godwin’s law by proxy – Mussolini’s mistress thought he was a decent fellow, too.
quasimodo (edc74e) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:30 am“But we’re not talking about an evil or a bad man either. We’re talking about a good and decent man,”
Good and decent men do not attend racist churches for 20 years. Totally disagree with you here. How about you troll outside a KKK rally for a babysitter?
Mr. Pink (a64369) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:34 amPat, I’ve held my tongue on the subject so far.
While I agree with you that Obama has done some decent things, I think the trouble for many posters here is that the bad things he has done outweigh the good.
Just where the tipping point is differs for each person. But those who say, based on his actions, that Obama is not a good person have just as valid an argument as you.
Steverino (6b42c9) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:35 amI typed that wrong. It was would you sit outside a KKK rally looking for a baby sitter? Alot of good men there I bet. They probably don’t cheat on their wives and tell their kids to do good in school too.
Mr. Pink (a64369) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:36 amWe will never make it as long as people continue to convince themselves that abortion is some massive political issue.
chicken marsala (e14852) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:37 amBy the way it is hilarious when the only “proof” you have that he is a good man is freakin words. You point to the fact he “said” or he “spoke” not that he “did” or he “acted”. A man is known by his freakin actions not his words. I knew that by the time I was 5.
Mr. Pink (a64369) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:37 amChicken go concern trolling over at Kos and see how long it takes you to get banned.
Mr. Pink (a64369) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:38 amI’d love to see you talk about what ‘actions’ Obama has taken that prove he’s a bad person.
chicken marsala (e14852) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:39 amSay something?
chicken marsala (e14852) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:42 am“It took courage to say these things.”
Hahahahhahahaahahhahahahahhahahahahahha. Sorry words take no courage unless you have reasonable cause to believe that you will be crucified for them. He could tell black people he was a martian and they would still vote for him at over a 95% clip. WTF are you smoking. He had nothing to lose by saying those words. They were an appeal to whites after the Wright issue came up. It was so he could say “look I am not Jessie Jackson or Rev. Wright it is ok to vote for me.” He said that crap after Wright look it up. It was political expediency.
Mr. Pink (a64369) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:45 amAS for speaking the obvious, oh yes such a courageous act. But how often did he repeat it, as opposed to how often he repeated ‘hope and change’. My bet, he said it once and he won’t be saying it again.
The self destructive behavior of, especially, young black males, not to mention the destruction of the black family is rooted in democratic policies. Go figure. What did Obama have to say about that? Did he identify the origins of the Fannie/Freddie meltdown? NO. Democratic policies. Go figure. And who are his economic advisors? The very same people who cooked the books at Fannie and Freddie.
Just become a criminal defense attorney, you know you want to.
White people know what life is. Most of us just have to knuckle down and slog through it. That is how you accomplish something. When a black male doesn’t get stuff as soon as he wants it (think about Michelle’s comments about raising the bar) the accusations of racism start to fly. If enough of them get together, riots ensue. (If it is a true statement, is it racism?)
Why don’t you start to blog about black run democratic cities, Pat. Why don’t you show us how wonderful those places are to live?
He isn’t a good man…he is pathetically under-prepared, not vetted, under educated and arrogant.
Will he still be a good man when his goons start investigating you as they did Joe the Plumber? Will he be a good man when his goons start investigating you? Will he be a good man when they fire you for not towing the DA’s office party line?
Good luck with that good man.
Jack (d9cbc5) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:47 amOh yeah it took great courage to have his campaign issue statements that investigations into ACORN voter fraud amounted to racism and voter suppression. Yes those are the actions of one grade A American.
Mr. Pink (a64369) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:49 amFinally, Obama appears to be a decent family man who loves his wife and children — and, as far as we know, hasn’t cheated on his wife.
I know people who know the Obamas socially — their kids play soccer together — and they agree with you. Their impression of Michelle, person to person, is also a lot more positive than the one she gave in the media.
nk (95bfab) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:50 amI have to agree with some of the people that say actions speak louder than words.
Was letting a campaign accept illegal donations honorable? Accusing your opponent of using the race card – before it ever happens?
I will always believe he was referring to Palin with his lipstick on a pig comment as he hesitated long enough for people to get the connection and start laughing. Or that he flipped off Hillary and McCain with his innocent scratches.
Or was letting your subordinates do all the dirty work while you soar above the fray honorable?
An honorable man is not just honorable some of the time.
MU789 (c852bc) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:51 amHow about voting to allow newborns who survived an abortion to be killed?
How about likening his own grandmother to a racist minister?
FWIW, I never said in my comment whether I thought Obama was good or evil. I did say that those who considered his actions and determined he was evil were using the same logic as Patterico was when he considered Obama’s action and concluded he was good. The weights and values differed, but the logic was just as valid for one side as the other.
Steverino (6b42c9) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:53 amThank you for your reasonable comments.
President-elect Obama has come up with inspirational ideas to mobilize and inspire voters.
I think they are bad ideas for lots of reasons. But now it’s up to people who think that President-elect Obama has bad ideas to come up with positive, appealing counter-ideals.
But we have an uphill battle because his ideas come with hand-outs; ours are likely to come without handouts.
Mark (8c337c) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:54 amHi. That never happened.
Good thing that never happened, either.
That doesn’t make sense.
You…. are not smart.
chicken marsala (e14852) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:58 amObama never had to say anything, because the press said it for him.
gabriel (6d7447) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:00 amWhat I fear most from Obama, in domestic policy, is benign paternalism. That he will try to put us all in gilded cages.
nk (95bfab) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:01 amWhat are the actions that prove he is a bad man?
Disabling the AVS system for internet donations. (Fraud)
His house and land deal with Rezko, who recieved millions in govt subsidies to, I say this laughingly, maintain govt. subsidised housing. (Corruption)
Flipping the bird to Hillary and McCain. (Disrespect. Lets see if he ever does that to anyone else)
Supporting the end of secret ballots for Unions.(Coercion and intimidation)
His sponsoring of the Global Poverty Initiative. (That gives the UN taxing powers on US citizens. Taxation without representation, support of corrupt regiems)
His (implied) support for unristriced immigration into this country. (Stupidity, and this will be the real destruction of the black community as Hispanics have a very low opinion of blacks.)
His membership at a church that advocates black liberation theology. (Racism. What would be the result of whites going to a white liberation theology church?)
Those were only some of his actions. But according to Pat, he is a good man.
Jack (d9cbc5) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:01 amTo elaborate further, why attack your opponent openly, when a sycophantic press will do 3000 page stories on your opponents wifes drug use from 20 years ago, or make up stories out of whole cloth about your mistress?
Obama knew all too well that he never had to go negative, because the press corps would do it for him.
gabriel (6d7447) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:03 amI immediately praised Obama when he talked about the responsibility of fathers. I truly admired him for saying that, even if for very little else. I believe bad men are defined by their actions, and as has been made abundantly clear here and elsewhere, Obama hasn’t really *done* much of anything, and certainly nothing I am aware of, or can recall, that I could label as bad or evil.
I certainly wouldn’t be surprised if such actions come to be known, or take place in office. But I too will give him, and I hope for myself, give anyone the benefit of the doubt that they are not evil until proven otherwise through action.
Justin (747191) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:12 amYou fail to deliver the money quote.
OBAMA: It’s a responsibility that extends to Washington. We should be making it easier for fathers who make responsible choices and harder for those who avoid them.
OBAMA: We should reward fathers who pay that child support with job training and job opportunities and —
OBAMA: — a larger earned income tax credit that can help them pay the bills.
OBAMA: We should expand programs where registered nurses visit registered, uh, visit expectant and new mothers, and we should help new families care for their children by expanding maternity and paternity leave, and we should guarantee that every worker gets more paid sick-leave so they can stay home to take care of their child without losing their income.
In Obama’s world, it’s all about what the government MUST do for the people.
cbharmon (ed60a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:13 am“President-elect Obama has come up with inspirational ideas to mobilize and inspire voters.”
Youngster, I think. Obama has the same ideas which Carter promised 40 years ago. They were miserably failures then and will be today. Unlike liberals, when conservatives pointed out the negatives in his ideas, we weren’t simply election campaigning. It’s the d*mn truth.
But as my wise mother commented last week, every generation apparently needs to actually experience the desolation of liberal policies before they understand. Jimmy Carter taught our generation well its hatred of liberalism and Obama will likewise.
I wonder if Obama will wear a red cardigan when he gives his “malaise” speech in 3 years berating Americans for their expectations and mandating turning the thermostats down to 50 degrees.
LogicalSC (742bd0) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:13 amFirst, I am a conservative Republican.
I read this blog often and appreciate the intelligence and thoughtfulness of Patterico and his guest posters. I have never been moved to make a comment until now.
I think the people who have made the majority of the comments on this subject are precisely the reason why our party is in the crapper right now. Look in the mirror, people, and you’ll see why we lost.
Kevin (c70f43) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:16 amI have a close relative who’s high up in police circles in the state of NH. He told me that in talking to the Secret Service during the run-up to the NH primary, that the field agents to a man *despised* Hillary Clinton and found Obama a true gentleman to deal with… and the Secret Service knows the candidates 24/7. This relative voted for McCain; not an Obama suck-up… for what it’s worth.
GuyfromNH (51260b) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:17 amSo Obama is a DECENT lying, law-breaking Communist thug.
Who knew?
GaryS (1a3d23) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:18 amI think it is rational to look at Obama’s adult life where almost every move, especially in the public/professional realm, has been calculated. To think that the actions you mentioned are anything but political requires quite a stretch of faith in a man who has hidden much of his life. What we do know about him and his associations is not comforting. So a few sentences about defending family or talking about the role of fathers is not convincing.
The way I look at it…when you decide to marry someone, aside from love, you also assess that person’s actions in private and public, that person’s history, and the people that person chooses to associate with. If any of those areas bring up a big question mark, if you are smart, you walk away or move slowly forward.
I see it as no different with Obama….the public Obama is smooth and “caring” while at the same time his minions are attacking those who dare to criticize him; Obama’s history is full of radicals, Socialists, and those who hate America; A FEW statements of “caring” & “faith” don’t coincide with the history and action of the man….
sharprightturn (43571e) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:20 amIn this analogy, I have no choice but to accept him as my President for the sake of the kids country….but if I’d had my choice, I would have never married chosen him in the first place.
The strikeout didn’t work in that last line…It should have read:
sharprightturn (43571e) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:22 amIn this analogy, I have no choice but to accept him as my President for the sake of the (kids)country….but if I’d had my choice, I would have never (married) chosen him in the first place.
Bill Cosby gave a speach and the Lame Stream Media slimed him for weeks.
The ‘chosen one’ stole (is stealing now honorable and decent?) the speach and the Lame Stream Media made him a hero.
This shows how low the Lame Stream Media has sunk in the sewer.
I’ll never again believe one word from the Lame Stream Media.
Scrapiron (dda662) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:23 amWhere the heck are all of these never – before seen nor heard commenters suddenly coming from? More than a few of the past few threads look a lot like conversations that have just been continued, albeit from another blog.
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:28 amI love it when the Left tries to rewrite history right in front of our lying eyes.
JD (008a90) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:30 amI picked up on this, while reading Jeff’s item at PW and decided to see what the row was about.
I think (as does Jeff, btw) that graciousness is in order. Pat has exhibited that and everyone with a conscience should support that intention. Bill Whittle agrees. VDH agrees. Every solid thinker agrees. So, let’s make that a given, for those interested in rational thought.
The issue at hand, is whether President-elect Obama is “good” or “not good” at his core.
We don’t know. The evidence is flimsy and ephemeral to say he is “good”. The evidence is anecdotal and associative to say he is “not good”
However, his lifelong attachment to a certain ideology or ideologies that are “not good” at their core, is far from being removed from the public debate. In fact, they are in play and under watch now more than ever.
He deserves a clean slate upon which to write his legacy. As an American first and a loyal patriot, he is my President and the role certainly deserves more respect than it has been given the last 8 years. Understanding that the role of our President is not the person, that it stands eternal regardless of the individual who temporarily fills it, is an important distinction.
But it is senseless to fight ghosts, aparitions and holograms. They aren’t real. Arguing against a “persona” is no more real.
We simply don’t know. That is why it is a waste of energy fighting (especially internally) about whether the “persona” is “good” or “not good”.
Focus on the ideology, the acts, the deeds and let’s not emulate the idiocy of the Bushhitler, Chimpy, asininity of feeble minds. Take the moral high ground and hold it.
There will soon be enough on the table to discuss regarding ideology and acts and deeds. Bill Whittle has had two brillian articles the past two days on the subject.
cfbleachers (1f4df1) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:30 amDmac – HuffPo
cfbleachers – Good to see you around. Missed ya
JD (008a90) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:34 amJD,
You’re not supposed to continue believing the lies told during the campaign.
Political propaganda needs an expiration date to make that obvious, I guess.
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:34 am“…please don’t take it wrong when I tell you that I believe that [Barack Obama], while a very nice guy, is the Devil….What do you think the Devil is going to look like if he’s around? Nobody is going to be taken in if he has a long, red, pointy tail. No. I’m semi-serious here. He will look attractive and he will be nice and helpful and he will get a job where he influences a great God-fearing nation and he will never do an evil thing… he will just bit by little bit lower standards where they are important. Just coax along flash over substance… Just a tiny bit. And he will talk about all of us really being salesmen. And he’ll get all the great women.”
–with apologies to James L. Brooks
Rich Fader (295108) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:35 amSo, sniffles, demonstrate for us how that is political propoganda.
Did Baracky, or did her not, vote for the bill that allows children to be killed that were born alive after surviving an attempted abortion?
Did Baracky, or did he not, call his grandmother, the woman that raised him a racist, and a typical white person?
Plus, that comment that McCain lost your vote in the other thread was just beautiful.
JD (008a90) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:46 amI don’t know that graciousness is in order as an imperative. Maybe it is maybe it’s not, as a practical matter. Let’s go hunting where the ducks are.
nk (95bfab) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:49 amMcCain could have had my vote, JD.
But if I wanted to live under a theocracy, I’d move to Iran.
Maybe next time.
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:49 amDidn’t Obama promise to change corrupt government?
Rahm Emanuel New White House Chief of Staff.
Freddie Mac board member when they cooked the books!
Change! Obama style?
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/11/07/emanuel-tied-to-freddie-mac-collapse/
ML (14488c) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:50 amAnother thing Obama said, when asked a reporter question about Bristol Palin’s pregnancy….was….
wheelers_cat (98fa0c) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:51 amMy mother had me when she was 18.
No it didn’t. It takes courage for WHITE PEOPLE to say such things.
Delusional?
ccoffer (137c0d) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:51 amIn order to judge if Obama is a “good” man, perhaps a trip on the wayback machine is in order.
When he ran for office the first time, he was supported by Alice Palmer who wanted to seek another office. Once she lost the primary, she voiced her intention to run for her current seat again. In other words, she asked Obama to step back. He didn’t. So Palmer gathered enough signatures to be place on the ballot next to Obama. The “good” man sent in his goons to discredit not just some of the signatures on the Palmer petition, but ALL of them. Signs of a good man?
But he lost. But by the next time he ran for office, he had hired Mayor Daley’s buddy, David Axelrod. Obama won the primary. OK. But then, Axelrod convinced his former employer, the Tribune, to seek a FOI award on the divorce of Obama’s opponent, a divorce proceeding that had been sealed to protect the children of that divorce. Did the “good” man care that he was going to expose those children to slander and gossip? Nope.
Actions, patterico, not words, are the measure of a man for most of us. You can say anything. It is what you do, how you lead your life, that makes you a good man. I can say you are a “good” lawyer, but if you lose every case, you are then judged by your actions, not what I say about you.
Does a “good” man allow his own brother to live off a dollar a month in Kenya? What about helping those who come up behind you? Isn’t that what he told Joe the Plumber? What about the school in Kenya that he promised to help financially? They have not heard from him since he left.
No, these are not the actions of a “good” man. They are the actions of a man who will say anything in order to advance his own career. These are the actions of a man who does not keep his word. These are the actions of a man who feels he has the right to dictate to others while not being held to the same standard himself.
Do I think Obama is a “good” man? Only if it is applied to being “good” at his own self interest.
retire05 (618576) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:52 amIf it were not for michelle obama complaining that he was never home, she had to do everything, she might as well be single (early this year, before the overhaul), I could agree with you. However, in order for obama to fulfill his ambition, he was unable to be a real daddy/husband because of all his work and traveling, he did however contribute to the household funds, so at least he gets some credit.
Judith (76ca0a) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:52 amI understand that we can not judge the insides or very soul of a person, but we are told to judge a man by his deeds.
Barack Obama’s deeds include relationships with a US Terrorist, a convicted felon who buys political favors and a Pastor who preaches racism and anti-Americanism from the pulpit.
Obama’s campaign paid ACORN; he trained some of the ACORN leaders, he supports ACORN, the election fraud organization who has not compunction in using our tax dollars to commit fraud.
Obama’s campaign turned off AVS checking – meaning they didn’t care about US laws limiting campaign contributions and dictating that foreigners could not donate to US elections.
Obama has directly lied about his statements regarding sitting down unconditionally with foreign terrorist nations. He lied about knowing his aunt was in the country illegally. He lied about what he was doing in Kenya, helping a relative attempt to win an election there. We could list many more of his lies.
This are not things I “suspect” about Barack Obama (that list is much longer). There are things that I KNOW about him. I judge him by his deeds.
katablog.com (c1f9f9) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:55 amHe told them not to boo, that’s great. That deserves a shiny medal, and I know just where to pin it.
I’d be more impressed if he told them to leave Joe the Plumber alone.
Jim Treacher (592cb4) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:56 amAll good examples of political speech which I can applaud. Hilarious and pathetic that this is all you can point to in support of your benefit-of-doubt posturing, given the absolute reams of examples of his, not just leftism, but out-and-out indecency (infanticide), dishonesty (far too many to name), and deception (his entire GE campaign).
The number of sickening acts by his surrogates that have gone uncommented upon by the candidate overwhelm these rare examples of positive statement.
The totality of the man is so far in the red, if you will, that you post is bankrupt.
Jaibones (12c3d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:56 amAll good examples of political speech which I can applaud. Hilarious and pathetic that this is all you can point to in support of your benefit-of-doubt posturing, given the absolute reams of examples of his, not just leftism, but out-and-out indecency (infanticide), dishonesty (far too many to name), and deception (his entire GE campaign).
The number of sickening acts by his surrogates that have gone uncommented upon by the candidate overwhelm these rare examples of positive statement.
The totality of the man is so far in the red, if you will, that your post is bankrupt.
Jaibones (12c3d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:56 amThat is not what you said. You stated that McCain lost your vote, which carries the direct implication that he had your vote to begin with. You have never said one thing, nothing, that suggests that you agree with anything John McCain stands for.
Shut up, nishit @ 46. You should never speak of Gov. Palin after the vile things you have said of her and her children.
THEOCRACY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1eleventy
OMG. This is priceless. Baracky has no problem invoking his deity in his defense of opposing same sex marriage, and claimed that his religion informed his politics. Yet somehow, McCain was a threat for a THEOCRACY.
JD (008a90) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:57 amYou would think an educated person would know history is filled with brutal tyrants who were kind to animals and helped old ladies cross the street.
Wunderlust (83a61c) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:57 amThanks, JD. It is nearly impossible for me to get here, in the brief moments I have between tasks…my computer gets blocked incessantly trying to open up Pat’s site.
I went to PJM to post, because I simply can’t get in and out fast enough on my computer to post here. (I went through a backdoor, to “fool google, just to do this…but I wanted to get Jeff and Pat back pulling on the same end of the rope)
I missed you guys too. daleyrocks, the Dana’s, all the good guys…who I already KNOW are “good”! …wish I had a better solution.
cfbleachers (1f4df1) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:57 amObama may well be a good man. We just don’t know. He definitely is a manipulative man as Evan Thomas, of all people, pointed out.
I will say this: I do believe this man loves his wife. I’ve carefully watched him every time after a speech or debate and his eyes lock with hers immediately and it’s easy to see a lot of communictaion going back and forth as well as love.
This for me is a very good thing, though there’s always the caveat: Macbeth and Lady Macbeth loved each other very much and look where that got them.
At any rate, I’ll give him a chance. Right now I’m so disgusted with the Republicans giving him a chance is my only option.
Leroy the Gentile (96de8c) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:59 amI think Rahm Emanuel is a signal to a lot of people.
wheelers_cat (98fa0c) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:00 amMainly that a vote forObama was not Death for Israel! a la the ever brilliant Joetheplumber.
For example, did you all know that Rahm served as a civilian volunteer for the IDF?
Patterico,
voiceofreason2 (590c85) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:02 amI think that sentiments like yours and Rick Moran’s that are the only hope in convincing the under 40 crowd that civility and proper focus are the only good approach if conservative values are going to be considered by those who identify with Democrats. To be sure there are a lot of over 40 types who could benefit from using more civility and useful focus but the future of the party is with the younger folks.
The advantage you have is your age — younger people are more likely to take your views seriously and possibly emulate your example. While Rick writes great stuff, he is an old codger like me and has less impact.
I really do hope there are many more like you who speak out and exert that positive influence. If there aren’t I think the GOP as a party could be in very deep trouble. It will be through young conservatives that young Democrats can be swayed to reconsider their options and opinions.
Why do you only cite what the man SAYS, and not what he DOES? This man’s whole candidacy has been built on a house of sand comprised of what he SAYS, not DOES! The man says he could no sooner distance himself from Reverend Wright than he could from his white grandma. First of all, why point out that she’s white? Because it’s calling attention to race and not to the issue at hand. The issue at hand with Wright was that he had a real and personal relationship with Wright, refused to cut ties with this bigot, and then flipped for the sake of political expediency. This shows decency? To me, it shows disloyalty and a willingness to sacrifice a deep bond for political power.
The man also says that when a human gets rights is ‘above his pay grade’. But his votes show otherwise. Obama has clearly demarcated that even after a child is born, it STILL is not guaranteed the right to life or medical attention. First, do we really want a president who dismisses this question of God given rights as ‘above my pay grade’? Second, how is it DECENT to then state with authority (via his vote 4 times) that it really is not above his pay grade, but that he clearly knows that babies who survive abortion are not granted the right to life? Decent? Hardly.
Obama says that he wants to clean up Wall Street greed and scandal. Then he appoints Rahm Emanuel, who sat on the board of Freddie Mac as it was cooking its books to look financially strong and stable! Whether Emanuel was named in the complaint against Freddie is irrelevant. Obama is giving a position of prestige to a friend despite this person being accused of laziness and turning a blind eye to the impending crisis while on the board of Freddie! Decency? Not.
Deal with what Obama DOES, not what he says, fools.
RJ Chavez (fa9c85) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:02 amI have never said anything about Palin’s children
wheelers_cat (98fa0c) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:04 amI have consistanly said that Palin is a textbook demagogue as defined by the Founders, and that she would split the GOP along the IQ faultine.
And I was right.
😉
Rahm was also on the Board of Freddie Mac when they were cooking their books. Good stuff.
wheelers_cat is also known as nishit, quellcrist falconer, and griefer, and there are surely others. It simply pushes memes, no matter what the topic.
JD (008a90) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:05 amPatterico,
He does not deserve a clean slate transitioning from Senator to President any more than Vladimir Putin deserves a clean slate due to his move from the Presidency to Prime Minister. Obama has a new job, but he is not a new man.
He is the same man who attended a racist, anti-semitic, anti-american hate-mongering church for 20+ years, and still had the gall to endorse the firing of Don Imus for the “nappy hair” comment.
Patterico, I think you are facing so much resistance to your evaluation because we have seen the damage that can be done by an overly charitable estimation of politicians. It’s the same error that makes so many people think that if we just keep talking to the Iranians, they’ll see the light and give up their nuclear ambitions.
I wish that politics could be conducted with perfect civility, and nary a harsh word for anyone, but anyone who tries that in the real world is unilaterally disarming. It’s foolish in foreign politics, and it’s foolish in domestic politics.
I say this because I do really like your blog, and respect your opinion. Your work holding the media in general and the LA fishwrap to account has been invaluable. If you are as tough and fair w/ the Obama Administration, then that’s all we can ask.
cnh (02c1ca) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:05 amYa know, I would be so much more willing to praise Barack Obama for being a good man if I had heard ONE positive comment from any liberal over the last 8 years about the basic goodness and decency of George W. Bush.
Bush was elected in 2000 in large part because he promised to restore honor and dignity to the office of the President, after 8 years of I Did Not Have Sexual relations With That Woman and No Controlling Legal Authority and auctions of the Lincoln Bedroom.
And he did. Bush has been faithful to his wife, a good father to his daughters, and a good boss to his staff who behaved themselves and remained loyal to him.
And what did that get him? 8 years of hate and vitriol from the Left.
rockmom (e42807) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:06 amBullshit. You mocked her Down’s child, incessantly, in thread after thread after thread at PW.
JD (008a90) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:06 am4 and out
bary o’carter
inneffective, effite and a commie
PB (92fdf7) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:07 amBarack Obama was spared to the decision to personally go negative or not. The media did all the sliming for him. I think the true test of his decency (with regard to sliming his opponents) was how loudly he contemporanously condemned the media’s actions. I did not see him do this.
Indeed, his campaign’s initial reaction to the Sarah Palin V-P selection was a bucket of vitrol only changed when it became clear that the media would once again carry water for him.
My point quite simply is that this election tells us nothing about Obama’s character because the media did all the “indecent” work for him. Even the slimiest politician would in thier own self-interest would let this mighty wind blow.
As far as how he treats his family, it may be true that he behaves as a good father. So what. I understand that many mobsters treat their families with honor. Again this does not tell us he is a decent or honorable man.
None of this is to say he isn’t a decent an honorable man, just that we have no evidence of it that is worth relying on.
However, the people he choses to associate with does tell us something about his character. I could also point to statements in both of his books that tell us very clearly about the character of this man.
Swampleg
Swampleg (a40986) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:08 amSo an example of decency was “Let me be as clear as possible,” Obama said. “I think people’s families are off-limits, and people’s children are especially off-limits.”. Yet again words don’t mean action as his campaign attacked Sarah Palin over Bristol and Trig. Decency is NOT saying one thing then doing the exact opposite. Decency means saying one thing and holding everyone accountable to it. I think Patterico you’re confusing decency with saying the right things to the right people to get elected.
Zaggs (1369a8) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:08 amWhy? Did he buy that too? You think after running a fraudulent campaign, we should get the the day after election day and wipe the slate clean? This is not something Obama did 20 years ago (that was drugs, and for that, assuming he’s not continued, he deserves a clean slate), this is something he did continually for the last 2 years to win an office that you now want us to wipe the slate clean.
katablog.com (c1f9f9) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:08 amIt seems like it’s been a long time since I’ve seen a freelance, high-profile conservative blogger attempt to make this sort of distinction.
Your stand is a good stand. It’s impeded, as I’ve said before, by the conservative blogosphere’s propensity to treat every negative rumor about one of their targets as a fact, and to immediately attribute the worst possible motives to every remotely anomalous event. Readers take it seriously.
A few noteworthy comments by others:
I think the people who have made the majority of the comments on this subject are precisely the reason why our party is in the crapper right now. Look in the mirror, people, and you’ll see why we lost.
But it is senseless to fight ghosts, aparitions and holograms. They aren’t real. Arguing against a “persona” is no more real.
We simply don’t know. That is why it is a waste of energy fighting (especially internally) about whether the “persona” is “good” or “not good”.
cfbleachers is especially worth pointing out – it’s very hard to note the true persona of any politician. There’s a lot of scripting. It’s good to be resistant to forming fixed ideas about the moral character of people you don’t personally know.
It is indeed a good idea to judge by words and actions. The problem a lot of commenters here have is that, to satisfy themselves emotionally, they don’t make a serious attempt to understand actions. You can’t read only conservative, or only liberal, blogs, and seriously understand anything going on in the political world. There’s too much spin.
That’s how some people seem to have equated the 100-year-long problem of verifying voter names with, for example, a campaign to subvert democracy.
It’s funny to watch people who fervently distrust every word said by the media towards people they do like, fervently treat every media report against someone they do not like as gospel.
glasnost (3857cc) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:09 am>>> It’s the courage to raise a child that makes you a father.
Of course, Obama misses the corollary: It’s the courage to keep the child that makes you a mother.
or, even better, since it states a right separate from parentage: It takes courage to allow an aborted child born alive to live.
When Adolf Hitler was not killing Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, or Catholics, he was a nice guy.
And, guyfromNH, if I were Hillary I’d despise the Secret Service too. I’m betting that they aided and abetted her husband’s infidelities. John and the steam tunnels, all over again.
unclesmrgol (a7ec92) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:09 amJim Treacher, do you know what I think?
wheelers_cat (98fa0c) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:10 amIn this shakespearean tragi-comedy, Joetheplumber is Bottom, the Comic Rustic.
I agree that Obama appears to be a decent man. I’m genuinely grateful that I get to pray for and follow a man who has (apparently) kept his first and most important oath of office–his marriage vows. No matter how often people told me that Bill Clinton’s private life was none of my business, I never could get over his infidelity… and that was BEFORE he shook his finger in the face of the American people and lied to us all. Obama is a refreshing change.
I do wonder how the President-Elect is going to deal with all the expectations of his followers. His campaign was a Rorschach blot of “hope” that is bound to disappoint somebody. His open-ended promise of “change” created a coalition of people who can’t possibly all be satisfied with reality.
The biggest test for Obama, in my opinion, comes when the moonbats demand something they just can’t have. I have no idea how he’s going to handle that moment. A truly “decent” man would gently but firmly tell them they just can’t get what they want, and take the consequences. I hope he does that… but I’m waiting to see.
Scott Somerville (e23acc) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:11 amI think there are bad men in this world who can, at times, say good and decent things. Mobsters are loved by their families, who think they are good and decent men for providing and protecting them. Hitler swayed millions of people in weeping, adoring, euphoric crowds much as we saw on Tuesday night. He was beloved. Terrorists are well regarded by their own people, and loved by their families. Many times they are hospitable and charming. They can even, at times, be kind. Mahmoud Achmedinejad has many admirers in his land and our own – he’s a snappy dresser and very charming, we’ve been told. That does not make any of them good and decent men.
My point is not to equate Obama with such men (that would be pointless hyperbole), but to point out that it is manifestly ridiculous and simplistic to say a man is decent because he has said a few nice things. That is a viewpoint that is naive and lacks discernment.
If you look at the core of a human being whose choices, associations, and actions are manifestly indecent, then NO, he is not a good and decent man.
We’ll all see very soon, as we judge the inner man Obama by his choices and actions in power. I know many people have already made their minds up about his decency based upon his obscene associations with terrorists, racists, criminals, and anti-Semites. I know I have.
You are known by the company you keep.
Redhead Infidel (726be9) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:11 amWhat others have and haven’t done should not in any way reflect what we ourselves do. What others think of Obama has not affected what I think. What Obama has done, his actions, words and deeds, is how he should be judged.
katablog.com (c1f9f9) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:11 amBarack Hussein Obama is like most men with qualities that are admirable and then those that are less so. In short he is conflicted.
As a politician he has made deals with the devil. Ayers, Wright, Ryzko are clearly political decisions to advance his career. Then there is Obama’s clear decision to gut campaign finance hygiene by choosing not to care where his funding came from just so long as he could bury his opponent.
The last President that had such conflicts in his personal and professional morals was Richard Milhous Nixon. We can only hope Obama doesn’t end up there, in Nixon’s house of demons.
RichardB (f7470d) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:12 amI did not “mock” Trig Palin, JD.
I said Sarah Palin has every right to bear a Down’s baby, exactly as someone who choses the alternative has every right to terminate.
And I said, real life is not Forest Gump.
Is that a mock?
wheelers_cat (98fa0c) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:13 amNo that, is the truth.
Is being decent attacking your opponent for being “too old, out of touch, cannot use a computer, 72, doesn’t get it?” Is being decent running ads that Palin is stupid or a poor choice for VP? No – that is not decent, and stop trying to pretend he did not run a dishonorable campaign. His change was more of the same. Hopefully, his presidency will not be.
Susan (d12939) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:14 amIs being decent attacking your opponent for being “too old, out of touch, doesn’t have character, cannot use a computer, 72, doesn’t get it?” Is being decent running ads that Palin is stupid or a poor choice for VP? No – that is not decent, and stop trying to pretend he did not run a dishonorable campaign. His change was more of the same. Hopefully, his presidency will not be.
Susan (d12939) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:14 amDecency is not running attacks on your opponent’s service as a POW for this country, especially when you have never served in the military.
Tina (d12939) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:15 amI’m one of those who reads conservative blogs almost exclusively, and have noted the comparative rarity of personal slights or slurs upon Obama, so if you’ve been seeing full-blown ODS running rampant in the rightwing blogosphere, I’ve somehow missed it. Admittedly, the relatively few attacks by the Right on his character are largely because so little is known of the man, who has been encased in a shiny, opaque, protective shell by the media and others, and this shell is made of a special, magical substance allowing it to reflect only sunlight and rainbows. Further, we were told by our betters the way Obama ran his campaign was the only measure we needed to assess his ability to run the country. Very well. How about those millions of dollars of illegal online and foreign campaign contributions deliberately engineered by the Obama campaign, for starters? Do honest, honorable men accept dirty money? And those attacks on Sarah Palin? Crocodile tears for the work of eager-to-please media surrogates. So don’t talk to me about Obama being a decent guy. By all accounts, Lenin had no known personal vices. He did, however, encourage others to rob banks to fund the revolution. Means and ends, that sort of thing.
Troy Riser (9ecc60) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:16 amkatablog
No, he did nothing to earn the clean slate, the ROLE of the President commands that I let him start with it.
Anyone who has read anything I’ve written knows, I will pull no punches on ideological differences.
Soon enough, the slate will begin to be written and then I will offer my thoughts. But not before then. If I move before then, I am everything I have protested vehemently against the last 8 years…spoiling for a fight and not waiting for a reason.
Look, I understand the sentiment of wanting to bloody a few noses and give a “taste of their own medicine”. It’s simply the wrong tactic.
Emulating the worst behaviors that we condemned so vehemently for 8 years…drags us into the sewer and makes us hypocrites. Should we be wary and concerned? Absolutely, there are enough signs and signals that make that the ONLY reasonable response at this point.
But HOW we approach it should be reasoned, rational, calm and not hypocritical. And we should respond to acts, deeds…not suspicions, or what we think might, may or could happen.
cfbleachers (1f4df1) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:17 amWords have meaning.
“Criticize Obama’s policy and not his person.” means something very different than “Obama is a good man and should be given a chance.” The first, I wholeheartedly agree with. The second is rubbish.
If we point out that Obama said that ‘Families are off limits’ when the press went after Gov. Palin’s daughter, it is legitimate to wonder why Obama didn’t follow his own advice when going after the Ryan family.
If we point out that Obama said ‘Black men should be responsible to their families’ it is legitimate to wonder why Obama didn’t follow his own advice toward the residents of Grove Parc Plaza – the district he represent as a State Senator. He abandoned the families he represented to raw sewage, among other things, after steering state money for housing maintenance to Tony Rezko, among others.
If Obama does not follow his own words – however good or kind those words are – then it is legitimate to say that his words are not an indication of his inherent goodness or kindness. They are only an indication that Obama knows how to say kind words.
Adriane (b8ecd8) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:17 amSo, he states that doesn’t think fathers should abandoned their families? Fathers are supposed to not abandoned their families. And you think that he should be praised of it?
H
dave (44106c) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:18 amvoiceofreason2, let me make this very clear: you are wrong.
The policy of “going along to git along” has been the downfall of the Republican party. When you become Democrat Lite, what is the point in voting for the imitation, why not just vote for the real thing.
You may think that core conservatism is dead among the under forty crowd. I seen it differently. I see a whole generation near forty that is learning there is no such thing as a free lunch. They are finding out that big government is not the answer and working hard for the things they want, is.
They are having children, raising those children to understand that they have to work for what they want, starting with good grades, and no one is going to do it for you, especially government.
And these responsible, hard working young adults are NOT aborting their young.
We will see a swing to true conservatism, Reagan conservatism, again. When the Democrats and their liberal views and legislation has so bankrupted us morally and financially, the pendulum will swing back the other way. But not until we stop “going along to git along”.
retire05 (618576) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:18 amNishit is another that chooses to rewrite history when convenient.
This is one rabbit hole I will not go down. Just wanted to let everyone know who this wheelers cat thing is, and what to expect.
JD (008a90) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:20 amcfbleachers, we have had two years of Obama being presented as something he is not. It is not “wanting to bloody a few noses”, it is the fact that some of us are not buying the “aura” of the man who is now the President-elect.
Just because he won the election, his history, and his deeds, or the lack of them, cannnot be rewitten.
retire05 (618576) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:23 amJD, linkage please.
wheelers_cat (98fa0c) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:24 am😉
For those of you that read objectively, this is Palin, and what she means in context of a Republican return to power.
I keep ending up at this site, I like your observations. I don’t have time to read through all the comments here. However, I can assume that Obama is an intelligent, well read man.
I personally side with Orwell, Rand, and Hayek. And anyone who has read those authors knows, that someone who wishes to enslave you to a collective is not a decent person. If Obama wanted to change the world with a great big charity, that’s a decent man. But when he picks up a gun to make his charity work, it’s not decent anymore.
I’m a father, and I’m raising my children the way I was raised. I respect the President, I respect the electorate, and I respect constitutional democracy. The instant the President shows that he does not respect constitutional democracy, I will cease to respect him. That may never happen and you may be right. I’m guessing I’ll be proven right around, oh, I don’t know, 1:30 PM Central.
tim Delaney (20a7d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:25 amI’m a surprised by the Patterico’s latest pontification. Very little evidence supports his assertion that at the core Obama is good. Quite a bit of facts support the opposite. Of course, Pat can put his head in the sand. After all, Dan Rather claimed that Clinton was an honest man.
1. Obama’s charity begins with your wallet. His giving has almost been non-existent.
2. Obama’s house was bought with corruption. It was only when caught that he paid back the ill got wages.
3. Obama, his wife, his daughters attended a church that preaches racism. The key is that he took his children.
4. Obama, like Clinton, almost never attacked his opponent (while in front). He allowed his surrogates to attack McCain with racist accusations.
5. Obama lies about his relationship with Ayers and other radicals.
6. Obama promised to have public financing of the campaign. He breaks his promises when convenient.
7. Obama supervised the financing of what is probably the most corrupt campaign ever. The $200 loop hole allowed him to take foreign money with impunity. Witness the difference in spending between the last couple of election cycles (x3 for Obama..but judging by TV adds may be x10)…this was unprecedented..doubling the spending in 2000.
jkstewart2 (aff5bd) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:25 amI applaud the stuff O says about fathers.
As a woman, though, I’d like to see him tell the mothers a thing or two, also.
It isn’t as if many of these women are getting pregnant thinking they are in a stable relationship or are actively planning for a successful family life.
Women have responsibility too. Don’t have unprotected sex with a guy hoping he’ll marry you. Don’t have unprotected sex with a guy that has a babymama or two in the same city.
MayBee (37070f) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:26 amDon’t plan on having babies outside of marriage unless you can afford it on your own.
It is not just the men.
It is funny how you did not add your candidate of choice, John McCain, to your list of male politicians who have cheated on their wives. It may have occurred three decades ago, but it is still relevant to the discussion and should also be included. Even McCain called it his greatest moral failure. There are many like McCain who fail morally when it comes to respecting the sanctity of marriage. You claim to be so unbiased, but you really should have included that fact in this post.
Also, I find it hard to swallow that you find it perfectly decent of Obama to criticize the black American race of people for their lack of ability to maintain their family structures, but that it is not decent of Obama to criticize the Bush-McCain (Republican) approach to politics like giving tax cuts to the richest people in America that has, for example, led us to our current state of economic disaster. Black Americans have an excuse for having a collapse of their family structure. Their ancestors were enslaved for over three centuries in the United States of America and hence had all of their West African family values erased from their culture so that they could be better and more efficient slaves for, for example, the great great grandfather of John McCain. But, what is the excuse that Bush-McCain have for their failed policies? And what is your excuse for continuously supporting failed ideals that, for example, only help the top 5% of this nation grow economically while leaving the remaining 95% hanging? Also, what is the excuse of John McCain for NEVER having met with any of his black family members who are his relatives and whose ancestors were slaves and slave masters? How decent is that of John McCain?
If Obama was decent with respect to these moral issues, I find it hard to believe that he would not approach policy with the same kind of decent moral vigor displayed in some of your examples stated above. You really need to reevaluate your illogical reasoning.
Da Bombz Diggity (f489d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:26 amA few days ago I stated that I would be removing Patterico’s Pontifications from my Bookmarks/Favorites and I called Patterico an “idiot” for calling Obama a “Good and Decent Man” (actually, I made the comment that “life’s to short to listen to idiots”). I was then told by another poster that if I was calling both Patterico and Beldar idiots, then I would not be missed.
Well, it’s very uplifting to see that about 90% of the posters here (so far) seem to agree with me.
And I did delete this site from my Bookmarks/Favorites. I found this “conversation” through hotair.com…
Dave Mattheisen (e2cde8) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:28 amAnd Hitler was really nice to his dogs.
Ed (dcbd92) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:28 amNext topic.
Comment by retire05 — 11/7/2008 @ 9:18 am
You missed my point entirely. There is effective persuasion and ineffective persuasion. The bomb throwing and hysteria serves the latter. Learning from experienced and articulate conservatives who know how to speak and write effectively advances the cause.
voiceofreason2 (590c85) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:29 amIt has nothing to do with “getting along” and everything to do with results not wasted energy on anger.Want an example? Show a young person how to read their pay statement and interpret the percentage of various taxes taken out. Convince them to hold onto that and each year measure their pay against that one. Regardless of how the income changes they have a real metric to gauge how tax policy affects them.
But I guess I could spend my time sending out emails about Obama being a Manchurian candidate….
retire05, you will not find a word I have written anywhere that suggests I wish to rewrite anything.
I know precisely what has transpired the last two years and I have been extremely vocal about it.
I will be again. As soon as there are acts and deeds and ideologies to remark upon, I will be no wilting wallflower.
What I say now…is simply pick the battles. I will not fight for the sake of fighting. I will not descend the depths of depravity that I witnessed the last 8 years and emulate the asinine and turn myself into a hypocrite.
I condemned that behavior harshly, I won’t engage in it or bathe myself in it just because they did.
I will fight a better fight. Take the moral high ground. And if he does something I like…I will compliment him. Because I am the polar opposite of what I condemned. I am a man of honor.
cfbleachers (1f4df1) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:30 amYes I am quite sure that, on a personal level, he is a good man. But do not mistake personal goodness for those actions he has taken in his life and those people he has been with. I have my disagreements with those, just as I have had similar with Sen. McCain, Gov. Romney, Sen. Clinton and quite some number of others. Being a good man does *not* mean you are a good leader or are imbued with the ability to make good and wise decisions.
As he ran on character, he has yet to demonstrate any outside of his personal life. Running a savvy campaign with the obedience of a willing press is not the same as being attacked for one’s ideas time and time again by a hateful press. We know less about Sen. Obama, even with his two autobiographies, than any occupant of the White House, ever.
I can quite imagine having a good time and chatting over lunch either with Sen. Obama or Sen. McCain and not venturing into their activities… just to sit down and have a normal, everyday chat. I have no doubt he is personally a ‘good man’ in that area. It is his life that he has hidden with the help of the willing press, that he has obfuscated and had only a few dedicated researchers looking into his actions, that tend me towards thinking otherwise than good or nice on a public scale. He purposely hid his only executive experience and did not want to be held accountable for his actions taken then.
That is not good.
That is not honorable.
It is a reflection of character, not how ‘good’ he is on a personal scale. I look at connections and how they are made and how decisions come about to have those connections. I look at the wide spectrum of terrorism, organized crime, gun running, narcotics trafficking and attacks on the banking system internationally and am disturbed by the similarity of activities being demonstrated by Sen. Obama to others in those realms. I can appreciate the skill that takes to hide such things, and even admire it… I do with Monzer al-Kassar and his ability to turn fruit into automatic weapons at sea, so a mere bit of sleight of hand with the CAC is really an order or five magnitude smaller, but in the same realm.
I don’t find *those* praiseworthy, nor something I would ever want to overlook, considering I have written about these people and their nasty ability to have critics silenced. Luckily I am not at the top of the list in criticism… and yet I can put one point of contact between the politician and the international, criminal arms dealer. That ends any ‘warm and fuzzy’ I have about Sen. Obama. You do not have to be a ‘good man’ for me to admire your skill…
ajacksonian (87eccd) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:30 amPatterico…
I see your point in this post. I also read your post about Obama not being a bad guy and elevating to level of our political disagreement. I understand your points. Whether or not I daisagree with you is not my purpose. What I wish to explain is that if you are going to promote Obama as a decent man then you are going to nedd more and better evidence than “Obama once said” What I think your missing is the finer nuances of black political discourse and reasoning and why what he said about black fathers is not controversial or courageous. I show more courage vociferously arguing conservative principles when I get my haircut in a city that I’m not from (risk of a real fight) than Obama ever did behind the Secret Service and in a politcal position that does not allow for any real opposition.
Courage really? Obama said this as a leader of a new movement among blacks to resurrect their communities and divest themselves of victimization while a unknown community organizer? that would have been courageous. No he said it as the Democrat nominee for President, the first Black to win a major party nomination. And as such faced two chances for criticism, slim and none. Was Andrew sullivan going to race bait him? Hillary ended her campaign June 8th Obama uttered those words June 16th his decision was not courageous. In fact his actions are the exact opposite of courageous. While a community organizer he sided with the most depraved parts of Chigaco political society only t cut them loose when their purposes had been served.
If you want courageous Patterico show me an Obama that gets rid of No Child Left Behind, or campaigns on school choice. He said something about school choice once too, yet that is somehow missing from anything he has to say about education now. Obama is the least courageous politician I have ever witnesed. He believes in nothing that may hurt him politically.
Patterico I find it hard to cheer for something that 99.99% of black people know to be true but use to demagouge white people and the Republican party anyway. That the big lie. We black folk know the goverment cannot save us but cling to it regardless. It is an inheirited slave mentality. The same slave that wanted Hariet Tubman to go away and not make massa angry is the same one that now clings to the Democrat party. This may be a hard and ubly truth to swallow but it is true. And too many black people know it and remian silent anyway.
Obama would be decent and courageous if he called on black people to stop killing their babies at a rate of 60%. That puts him in Planned Parenthoods crosshairs, and is deeply offensive to your average Esence reader. You see we just aren’t supposed to talk about such things. When Obama’s rhetoric gets there Patterico we can talk about courage.
Rodney (b90114) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:31 amAre you sure about this?
JD (008a90) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:32 amI will forever be convinced that Obama is a Chicago thug politician who learned well from the Daley machine.
He has well learned the good cop, bad cop routine. He had Kos and HuffPo playing bad cop, with the media picking up stories from them. Then Obama himself could stand above it all after the story had done its damage, just like he did with his Senate race.
Daniel (cb25ca) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:41 amI whole heartedly agree that he is a decent person. I am totally against his policies and believe them to be damaging to America. But he was my professor in law school for a very small class and I got to know him pretty well. He is a good man who sincerely wants to help. He’s misguided and mistaken, but he’s got a good heart. Thanks for staying classy Paterrico.
JPutch (0ad731) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:43 amPatterico, you use Obama’s statements about attacks against Gov. Palin’s family as a reason to think that he is a decent man. However, you left out some of what he said.
Obama: “I will fire anyone in my campaign who attacks Gov. Palin’s family.”
That’s a quasi-quote.
They kept churning out the dirt, and he never mentioned it again. Not a single firing. Not even a single public reprimand.
How does being a liar make one decent?
Troll Feeder (e9690b) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:44 amI absolutely agree that the loyal opposition must focus solely on policy disagreements. We must be relentless in drawing the distinctions between our prinicples and those of the coming administration, but focusing on Obama the person will be fruitless, backfire, and accomplish nothing but earning the enmity of Americans.
I don’t doubt that President Obama has admirable personal qualitites. Let’s get on with preparing our criticism of liberal policies, and not trying to mock or criticize President-elect Obama the man.
Chad3337 (1aaf2a) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:45 amPolitical propaganda needs an expiration date to make that obvious, I guess.
Comment by snuffles — 11/7/2008 @ 8:34 am
As so should you!
Another Drew (fd30bc) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:48 amThat’s great. Too bad he continues to support the welfare system that caused men to abandon their responsibilities in the first place.
Bill Scrunty (5eacb6) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:48 amIf past is prolog Obama fails in the decency category.
John Steele (44f0bd) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:49 am– He is an ardent supporter of abortion and voted against the Born Alive act at every opportunity. – Add to that he brought up his children in the “Reverend” Wright’s hate-filled church.
A decent man would have done neither, especially since he now tries to claims his memberhip in the church as just politically expedient. Sacrifice your children for expediency?
Obama could have nipped all this crap thrown at Palin in the bud. He chose not to. And don’t tell me he couldn’t control his followers and the MSM. He could and he did not. Screw him and his apologizers.
dave (44106c) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:50 amDon’t like to pile on normally, but agree with the majority of posters. A qualifier, I believe that BO believes he is a decent person and therein lays the real problem. Look at his abortion stance, you might be horrified at partial birth abortion, he sees it as not unfairly “burdening” his daughters and others. That is not surprising if you look at his parents. His mother was a hippie flake and his father was just plain not there. Our ethics are formed by our childhood experience and ideally directed by ethical parents. He was looking for direction, just went to the wrong place, e.g. Reverend Wright. That said, the fact that he believes he is a good and decent person, does not mean he is. The 9/11 terrorists believed they were doing the right thing when the plane hit the WTC.
Paul Gross (fc0723) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:55 amObama couldn’t stop Palin from opening her mouth, dave.
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:55 amI see the Republican Underground forming here. It’s folks like these that voted Constitution Party in Oregon and cost the Republicans a seat.
Kevin Murphy (0b2493) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:55 amI’ve always felt that Obama has tended to act decently.
Doesn’t mean I support him. I oppose his policies, and I don’t like this cult of personality that seems to have sprung up about him, and that I think he has encouraged.
He may be a decent fellow, but he sure has a big ego, and seems even more arrogant to me than most politicians.
Of course I’ve known decent people who are also arrogant- they are not mutually exclusive you know. And I figure Obama will try to do what he thinks is best-
My experience however is that people with big egos tend to fall victim to “The road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions” trap.
Guess I’m just saying that being a decent fellow isn’t enough. After all, Carter was and is a very decent man. In fact I’d go so far as to call him a good man. But he was a terrible President.
Cicero (9f21fc) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:56 amJD, yes you bring up a good point. There is a bit of ambiguity surrounding this topic. First, the United States of America was not declared until 1776. But as we know, American settlers were on the present day United States of America for centuries before that declaration. In fact, the first colony was founded at Jamestown, Virginia, in 1607. Most history books reference 1619 as being the date when the first Africans reached British North America in Jamestown. But, there is also evidence that in 1526, slaves were brought to North America’s Sapelo Sound which is present day the state of Georgia. So, taking 1526 as the original year slavery began on present day United States of America and taking 1865 as the final year of slavery due to the 13th amendment, I calculate 339 years.
Da Bombz Diggity (f489d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:00 amWhat … WHO played the race card? You seriously doubt that McCain used it to his advantage with this terrorist crap?
joe c (63cc6c) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:02 amSo apparently the race question is not at all settled.
JD (008a90) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:02 amDecency implies virtue. Can good intent [or the absence of bad intent] alone be a sufficient watermark for decency?
I, myself, have wrestled with the issues of Obama’s cynicism and opportunism versus decency and good intentions.
I have come to the conclusion that he is an empty suit–an cynical opportunist. I do not think he wants to save the country and our world. I think he wants to be President Obama, just like many other groomed politicians. Does this make him decent? Well it doesn’t make him indecent. Does the absence of indecency make him per se decent? I am of the mind that this is not the case.
I wrestle with this. I want to be generous, but I think his level and brand of cynicism and opportunism negates decency. So, to me, he treads somewhere in virtue’s limbo. What level of respect does that rate?
TMQ (3d200a) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:04 amLawyers are also trained to weigh evidence. Interpret Obama’s words and actions as you say – that they were sincere, not political maneuvering. Now set that against his desire to use government to take from Joe the Plumber to give to Jane the Floridian. Is that decent?
Jefferson and Madison didn’t think so.
“To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.” — Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816
In 1794, Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and Philadelphia. James Madison stood on the floor of the House and objected, saying:
“I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.” — James Madison, 4 Annals of Congress 179, 1794
Is it decent to force students to undertake community service against their wills? Is it decent to announce plans to attack Pakistan but give Iran a pass?
Is it decent to select judges based on “empathy” rather than fealty to the Constitution?
Certainly, weigh all factors. But by what standard? Pol Pot was said to be a very mild mannered fellow. I wouldn’t want him in Congress. Woodrow Wilson was no doubt ‘decent’ by your standards.
Is the only thing that counts good manners?
Jeff Perren (63cea8) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:05 amOMG. Patterico is now taking words Obama said (note: he did nothing) as evidence that he is a decent guy. Newsflash: Bad people SAY decent things all the time. They just don’t act upon them.
(In fairness, I didn’t read the whole post. It was kind of ‘wordy’.)
Kevin (5ac156) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:06 amIs Obama a decent man? I have no idea. He might be, might not. We’ll all see soon enough.
But he’s a weak man. He does not control his followers. He’ll tut tut at those smearing his opponents, but they face no consequence. Those who attacked Palin remained in the campaign with the same level of influence. The astroturf king, David Axelrod, remained in charge, even as his dishonesty was exposed. He defended truly evil men like Wright and Ayers until they became inconvenient to him. He listen to Jim Johnson and Franklin Raines who benefitted greatly from the subprime crisis. He selected as his running mate a corrupt career politician who has steered millions of dollars to clients of his son’s lobbying firm. Didn’t know that? Please see R. Hunter Biden for details. You certainly won’t find them in the paper.
Now it appears that he has chosen as Chief of Staff a man who helped cover up wrongdoing at Fannie and Freddie. Ed Morrissey has some details at http://hotair.com/archives/2008/11/07/emanuel-tied-to-freddie-mac-collapse/
Even a decent man may be corrupted by being in a mob of jackels. Obama’s advisors suggest that his decency has a very dim future.
Ken Hahn (93e404) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:06 amComment by Kevin Murphy — 11/7/2008 @ 9:55 am
Downstate OR resents Portland and the Willamette Valley as much as Downstate IL resents Cook Co.
Another Drew (fd30bc) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:07 amThere is a small, but active secession movement there to split the state, the Constitution Party is just the public face.
2 words:
docweasel (501e56) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:08 amBull. Shit.
I think Obama is a decent guy. However, it was not courageous to “go Cosby” with the black community. At the final stages of the primary race, it became very apparent that Obama had to do this to secure more white votes. He had the black vote totally in his pocket by then, but needed to show whites that he was not afraid to take on his bro’s.
Ron (59913e) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:10 amI’m not sure what Patterico means when he claims that Obama is a “good” or “decent” man. Are we talking about the presence of great virtue or the absence of great vice?
In reality almost all people do some good things and some bad things. The trouble comes in what ratio we do those things and how others value those things. That ratio/valuation judgment seems to flip a switch in our heads, and we start labeling people “good” or “bad” based on how we see the scales balance.
Is Obama a good man? I don’t know. It really depends on how you define it. Frankly I think Patterico is setting the bar rather low. Being truly “good” involves much more than doing what you should do anyway. It also has a lot more to do with how you act when no one is watching.
For me, I wouldn’t call Obama an especially “evil” politician – but he’s certainly no great exemplar of virtue either. Just a guy, with some disastrous ideas and a fundamentally flawed understanding of human nature. Good? Not so much.
TheUnrepentantGeek (e9afdf) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:10 amNice of you to try to give the President-elect the benefit of the doubt. Real sporting of you. Of course, he is now the head of a party that provided no such courtesy to President Bush and savagely attacked him from day one. And I am talking about its leaders and not just the rank and file. See if you can find a quote from Obama like, “Hey guys, that Bush-Hitler, war criminal stuff is a little over the top, isn’t it?”
a. moral (d646ef) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:18 amPresident elect Obama starts with a clean slate.
Obama’s range of possible governing styles is huge-it’ll be somewhere between Hugo Chavez and Bill Clinton (although hopefully without the scandals.) Clintonesque governing (especially post 1994) is not greay but okay; Chavez’ is not.
Take Reagan’s advice to heart-trust but verify. The people have spoken, and what matters now is how Obama governs, not his past.
We’ll get another clue in just over an hour, when he holds his first press conference.
MartyH (52fae7) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:18 amRon, I disagree completely. He ran the chance of alienating African-Americans. Cosby has taken a lot of heat himself form community leaders.
CrushOnObama (7195a8) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:22 amDo you believe essentially that with the election of Barack Obama, the United States of America is devoid of problems surrounding race? I don’t think that the United States of America has ZERO problems surrounding race. Remember that Obama is an individual black person who has managed to do great things. Certainly, there are other black individuals who have done the same, but that doesn’t negate the sociological evidence that scores of blacks are behind the general American population with regards to income, education, prison population, and so on… In my opinion since the proportion of blacks in America is about 13%, then 13% of blacks should be represented for example in America’s prison population. But, this is not the case. In fact, blacks make up nearly 45% of the US prison population. That is just an example. But, there are plenty additional statistics that show that blacks are underrepresented in the economy and education and overrepresented in negative aspects of society like prisons.
Da Bombz Diggity (f489d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:27 amMr. CrushOnObama,
You are the typical Obama kool-aid drinker… You think the black community would have turned in mass to vote for McCain? Nope – this was a political decision. Why didn’t he come out and say these things earlier in his political career?
Having said that, I am glad that Obama made these comments and that the black community starts to take some more responsibility. Who knows, we may see more folks turn from a “blame the government, (but want a handout from said government)” mentality to a more conservative “take responsibility for my own actions” approach to life…
Ron
Ron (59913e) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:30 amGuys, there are SEVERAL delicious cherries in this turd sandwich. Why are you complaining?
/Patterico
Lehosh (a14f26) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:31 amObama kicked his mentor (Alice Palmer) off the ballot for the
Illinois senate.
That was NOT a good and decent act.
Michelle (6d45a6) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:34 am“Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.”
http://change.gov/americaserves/
I see your good man is planning on reviving involuntary servitude by “requiring” people to perform “service”.
Democrats have always been in love with the idea of forcing people to “serve”, in their cotton fields, in the armed forces, and now this.
They don’t see us as free men with rights, but rather as tools to be used as they see fit. God spare us from “good” liberal Democrats who have power.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:35 amWell said!
Vik Rubenfeld (e3f34b) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:36 amHmmm… just to be clear… I mean, “Well said, Patterico!”
Vik Rubenfeld (e3f34b) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:37 amOh, and PS:
TheUnrepentantGeek (e9afdf) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:38 amA few days ago I stated that I would be removing Patterico’s Pontifications from my Bookmarks
And yet, here you still are – how about keeping that promise this time?
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:39 amHere’s what happens when you give good liberals power…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment
And, you folks don’t have to remind what a good man Roosevelt was. I’ve been hearing it all my life.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:39 amThis is not really a significant factor in determining whether or not someone is a decent and good human being. Certainly, not loving one’s spouse and children would weigh more heavily on the negative side than would loving one’s spouse and children would weigh on the positive side. Plenty of thieves, thugs, dictators and bureaucrats have loved their families. (By the way, there may actually be good reason why a guy doesn’t love his wife and kids. It would be a tragic situation, but it does happen.)
Ira (28a423) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:41 amPatterico, I think you jumped the gun on reaching a conclusion that Obama is a decent and/or good man.
Patrick is on a similar wavelength to the one John McCain was on when he told an anti-Obama heckler at a rally in early October that “I have to tell you [Obama] is a decent person and a person that you do not have to be scared of.”
The vitriol unleashed in response to Patrick’s civility and balance is astounding. I suppose there are people, right and left, who are addicted to vitriol. But for the hatred, they would be hollow.
Tim McGarry (9fe080) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:42 amIt is not all that difficult for a man, particularly a politician, to talk as if he were a good man. But actions are a great deal more effective than words in helping define a man. Obama has siblings all over Africa and we know of at least one who lives in a hut in Kenya, alone and in need. Obama acts as if the man didn’t exist. Not a sign that he is a “good man.” Obama has an aunt in Boston who lives in public housing and has no income of her own- she is in the US illegally. What has Obama done for her? That’s right. Nothing. A good man? I’ll reserve judgemnt on the question.
mhr (09c9d2) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:42 amThis man is now our President.. for better or worse.. my wife.. an extremely intelligent woman, ADORES him.. ditto my son.
However, I CANNOT forget his voluntary affiliations with EXTREMISTS, both religious and political.
Ditto.. several obvious efforts during the campaign to MUZZLE media outlets.
McCain was a LOUSY candidate..and he suffered from some terrible handicaps.. the economioc meltdown.. Obama’s race, which allowed ANY criticism to be labelled racist.. the OBVIOUsly BIASED media.. I could go on and on!!
I would love everyone on this web page.. whatever their religion, to pray that our new President’s actions are guided by NOBLE impulses.. and that he is in GOD’s hands.
robert schwalbaum (f73c87) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:45 amComment by Dmac — 11/7/2008 @ 10:39 am
For my New Year’s wish I would like sniffles and his ilke to do that too.
Another Drew (fd30bc) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:49 amToo bad, Robert Schwalbaum. Looks like your wife must be evil too.
😉
BitterClinger (47b0b8) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:50 amHmmmm.
Obama’s words are completely worthless.
Don’t listen to what he says.
Watch what he does.
memomachine (6ab657) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:53 amHey, I am no fan of Barack Obama. But I keep thinking about how the Progressive Left acted when GW Bush was elected. I keep thinking about the rude bumperstickers, and the endlessly repeated lies, and the fury and vitriol.
That last part is important. There must be a name for a Greek Curse: to act like those you abhor…even unaware that you do so. We are supposed to be better than that.
That does NOT mean I approve of BO. I’m different from most of you, because I teach people like Barack Obama every single semester. He wanted something, and now he has it. He isn’t deep and subtle, and I actually don’t think he believes in much other than his own sense of entitlement (much like Bill Clinton).
We can scream and rend our clothing and do all the things we deplored of the Democrats. Or we can truly be the Loyal Opposition. Continue to press for information. Hold the man accountable for his statements, past, and actions. Watch how the new President handles his new responsibilities.
This pursuit of perfection was counterproductive (all the McCain haters helped elect Barack Obama, remember).
But I well remember an interesting exchange from many, many years ago that bears retelling.
My PhD advisor was in the first group of researchers to win a Presidential Young Investigator Award. And as such, she was invited to a dinner at the White House, and sat at Ronald Reagan’s table.
Someone in my lab at the time groused that “Reagan was going cut the Fellowship program!” But the program was in its first year, and no budget information about the next year had been released.
The fellow in my lab was so partisan, he couldn’t even say that he thought it was great that Reagan was part of that program. Anything at all from Reagan was bad.
I confronted him and told him that if Reagan gave him 100 bucks, he would be furious it wasn’t 200 dollars.
He cussed me out.
So I don’t want to see conservatives act like that. There is plenty of time to go nuclear. For now, how about we say “Let’s see what the guy does, and if it is like he has done things in the past, we can start yelling then”?
Why act like the folks at DK or DU?
Instead, we should take all that energy and try to articulate, positively, why “our” way is best. Hearts and minds, without the histrionics. We’ll need that attitude in the coming months and years. Because I don’t think that Barack Obama is going to solve any problems. I think he will make things worse.
We have to change public opinion, based on the election returns. And shrieking and demonizing others will not do the job.
My opinion only. But ask yourselves one final question: does the infighting make Howard Dean happy? Because, you know, it does.
Eric Blair (c8876d) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:57 amI still don’t understand how pointing out some nice words that Obama said makes him a “good guy.” Character goes far deeper than rhetoric. And if Obama has shown himself on numerous occasions to be duplicitous, to the point of smearing McCain, or at least tar and feathering him as a racist, how can he be at the end of that a “good guy?” Patterico seems to be using the same tactic of characterizing those who disagree with him as being beyond any reason as a cover when he says ” you can’t convince someone who resists being convinced, and on the issue of Obama’s positive qualities, there is literally nothing I can point to that can’t be dismissed as Obama’s posturing for political benefit.” So that is a way to dismiss others arguments out of hand. It seems to me that Patterico suffers the same affliction, although in his case, he can’t be convinced that Obama ISN’T a good man.
Jim P (a59306) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:04 amObama’s flaws in character are what defines a good man vs a bad man. Those are deeper than words. the man was willing to destroy his opponents, he used thuggery, or at the very least, was aware of his surrogates use of thuggery to gain the white house. Would John McCain have done that? No. Obama broke his pledge to use public financing. Do good men value their promises? I would say Yes. Would a “good man” work closely with a terrorist that advocates killing innocent people for the furtherance of their political views? Would a good man associate himself with the most vile of racists? Would a good man knowingly break the rules of campaign financing and allow perpetration of fraud on his behalf? the answer is no. A good man does not believe that the ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS. To me, this is a simple and straightforward determination. Actions, as the saying goes, speak louder than words. ANd I am sure that many a tyrant has said nice words, but it isn’t the words that make them an evil tyrant, it is their deeds. If we are ready to label someone who does all of those things in the pursuit of power, whether or not it is for the greater good or for himself, then I guess that we have fallen into moral relativism, because I can’t see how one can define a good person objectively anymore.
I just disagree. I ain’t throwing insults around and do not want to. Start posting about something else so we can move the hell on from this catfight and forget about it. For taking this abuse on your own site Patterico I will make sure I drink enough braincells to kill all the ones I expended trying to tear down your arguments. That should be fair huh?
Mr. Pink (a64369) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:05 amHell drink enough beers to kill enough braincells. I started early sorry.
Mr. Pink (a64369) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:05 amIf that is all that makes for Obama being a “decent” guy, then quite simply, that ain’t good.
The fact is, Obama SAYS things, but his ACTIONS should be what we base our opinion of him on.
Hmmm…let me think…
1. He SAYS that his “associations” mean nothing and are not the people that he though he knew. Come on, who believes that crap?
2. He is one heck of a dirty politician. The record speaks for itself by both words and deeds. This can be traced back to his political beginnings in Chicago.
3. Just look at what Chicago has become. Has he EVER voted to lower taxes? The murder capital of the United States says it all. He really improved life in the South Side didn’t he?
4. Who hasn’t he thrown under the bus? I am quite sure many more are coming.
Zimee (cfa3cb) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:11 am“There must be a name for a Greek Curse: to act like those you abhor…even unaware that you do so…”
Eric, I don’t know how to use greek characters here, but the word might be “upokritai” (see Matthew 6:2).
Conservative principles do not include just free-market economics and certain moral standards in criminal law. They have historically also included the view that individuals have value in and of themselves, even apart from what they have achieved. That’s why conservatives, historically, championed very careful rules to ensure fair trials at the risk of letting off a few guilty people, because human life was so precious. They also were generally the ones standing up for treating other people with courtesy – disagreeing with dignity – because they thought it was important to remember that even your political enemy was a person created in God’s image and valuable to him.
I’m sad to say that many of us conservatives have moved in another direction.
BitterClinger (47b0b8) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:15 amDmac,
Well, if you had bothered reading my entire post you would have found this little nugget at the end; And I did delete this site from my Bookmarks/Favorites. I found this “conversation” through hotair.com…
I guess there are more morons…er, sorry…idiots here than I originally anticipated.
Dave Mattheisen (e2cde8) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:16 amObama’s transition website change.gov has a surprising list of policy links down at the bottom. (Hurry before they disappear!) There is no need for Obama to be moderate at this point, but on things like immigration he is at least pretending to not be extreme. He emphasizes border security first.
http://change.gov/agenda/immigration/
Contrast that with douchebags like Tony Perkins who, with the help of CNN, claim ownership of Republicans, and say the path to winning is to push harder (and be more obnoxious) on gays, partial-birth-abortion, Terry Schiavo, dinosaur cohabitation, and all that.
Wesson (f6c982) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:17 amAnother consideration is the “boy who called wolf” syndrome. By going ballistic now, your voice will be ignored in the future, even if you are right.
MartyH (52fae7) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:19 amDa Bombz – I get it. We are racists. Filthy disgusting racists.
JD (831256) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:23 amConsidering how far gone the black family is, Obama’s statements are about as light as they could be. The situation is desperate. But instead we hear more about health care and Middle Class taxes.
Obama has been in a unique position to make a difference.
Has he boldly challenged the behavioral problems that are destroying the black community?
No.
Two statements, then silence.
Bill Cosby he is not. But there is still hope for change, I suppose.
Amphipolis (fdbc48) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:26 amHey Patrick,
Ginni (b80551) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:36 amI applaud you. Well said.
I, of course, disagree with your policy opinions, being a liberal myself, but I would love for us all to get together again soon so we can debate face to face. 🙂
-Ginni (of Inga & Alex)
Pol Pot was a decent guy. He always did what he thought was best for his country’s future. He was just a little too ‘progressive’ for his time.
Robert Mugabe? Very good man. Decent guy. He definitely put his country first when making decisions. Sure, he destroyed Zimbabwe because of his ideology, but still… good man. Decent guy.
Kevin (5ac156) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:37 amOff Topic, but not all that wide of the mark: Actually, that’s a stretch. Well, then, it’s only somewhat tangentially related if you’re feeling generous. OK, OK, clearly Off Topic and self-indulgent.
Willie Sutton robbed banks, and lots of folks thought Willie was a good man, sort of like a modern day Robin Hood, except that Willie kept the money for himself. In any case, during the depression there was not much sympathy for banks, and often the guys who robbed banks were envied, up till the time they were caught.
The FBI wasn’t so enamoured of Willie and they put his picture on the 10 Most Wanted List. Now, Willie was a dapper fellow and was always well dressed, so the FBI cleverly gave his picture to tailors and haberdashers in addition to putting it on display in post offices.
The son of a tailor spotted Willie on the subway and turned him in. Willie’s pals later killed the “snitch.”
Was Willie Sutton a good man? He was not violent and did no physical harm during his many hold-ups, yet he was convicted and sentenced to 2 life terms plus 105 years, but was later released from Attica on humanitarian grounds. Willie, a chain smoker, suffered from emphysema, and was in poor health. He died at his sister’s home in Florida, a free man, living on welfare.
Ropelight (c930c8) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:37 amAgreed. Talk is cheap. Obama is a shifty, unethical Chicago machine politician who was willing to do anything necessary to get elected. He took millions in illegal donations, paid ACORN to commit election fraud all over the country, lied about McCain’s proposals etc. He got elected in Illinois by having all his opponents thrown off the ballot. Obama dug into Hull and Ryan’s divorce records in an effort to find damaging things to use against them when he ran for US Senate and succeeded in causing both of them to withdraw from the race.
The list goes on and on. Barack Obama is not even close to being a decent person. If we delude ourselves into believing that he is, it will make it far more difficult to fight him tooth and nail, which is most certainly what we need to spend the next 4 years doing.
EyeDoc (a4f1fa) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:38 amWe’re talking about a good and decent man, who has done some bad things, and who believes in far-left policies that will harm this country.
My judgement is that the first part of that statement is exactly backwards .
We’re talking about a bad man, who has done some good and decent things, and who believes in far-left policies that will harm this country.
Stephen macklin (f552f7) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:43 amRemember the guy who went to study indigenous tribes in South America and accidentally brought with him a virus that wiped most of them out?
He was a good guy. Very decent. He went down there to help them, you know.
Let me be clear: You can be a good guy and still cause massive damage to your country or the world if the policies you support suck. Heck, I’m sure Neville Chamberlain was a decent guy. He’s nevertheless partly to blame for WWII and a few dozen-million people dying. In short, who the hell cares if he’s a decent guy?
Kevin (5ac156) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:44 amBut we’re not talking about an evil or a bad man either. We’re talking about a good and decent man, who has done some bad things, and who believes in far-left policies that will harm this country.
Who are you trying to convince. I mean, seriously. Several articles now with the same theme. Me thinks thou doest protest too much. Everything you wrote would point to a good man. But as I have stated in two prior posts, his views on abortion, partial birth abortion and the born-alive position he takes, removes the word good from the equation. I am not sure who you are trying to convince, but as Dana said so eloquently last night, evil and bad are not the same thing. I do not think he is evil. But he is not good either.
Glynn (10ee60) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:45 amEric “1984” Blair:
Back up a second. The progressive left was disgusted with the hi jinx that took place in Florida, a state where GWB’s brother was governor, and Katherine Harris the Secretary of State of Florida acted in a grossly inobjective, partisan and unethical manner to disenfranchise thousands of voters, stop the recount. If that wasn’t enough to be disturbed about you had the subsequent ruling by SCOTUS judges, mostly nominated by Bush senior that upheld the ruling by the Florida appellate court (to stop the recount).
That would leave a bad taste with anyone, but BUT..after 9/11 this country was unified as one from the far right to the far left to everything in between and the true motivations and unconstitutional behavior of BushCo began to manifest itself in the most egregious manner, manipulating intel, drawing the nation into a war in Iraq on the false and manufactured idea that Iraq and AQ had a connection and the lie that Iraq had, or would soon have, WMD’s of a Biological, Chemical or Nuclear nature and began his dismantling of Constitutional rights.
Obama was elected on Tuesday. Today is Friday and you’re ready to say there’s an analogue here.
Just the facts, “Eric.”
Peter (e70d1c) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:47 amSorry, for posting the same links again Pat, but I keep hearing about judging the man on his words, not his deeds.
Grim proving ground for Obama’s housing policy
Obama’s Treatment for his Women Staffers
Mossberg500 (9fd170) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:47 am159, Peter, you are a Sore Loserman and a Troother. That certifies you as mentally ill.
PCD (7fe637) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:54 amI guess there are more morons…er, sorry…idiots here than I originally anticipated.
And…you were just about to leave as promised, yes? You don’t like what you read here anymore, say you’re done with it, yet use the pretext of another site to wind up here…again? You honestly didn’t understand how a linked post from one blog could possibly lead you to another blog?
Now…who is the moron in this scenario, sweetheart? Try keeping your promises, and don’t come back.
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:57 am“Convince a man against his will, he’s of the same opinion still” I think there is a lot of argument here for the sake of argument. Isn’t it time to move on?
tmac (f9e092) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:00 pmToo many fathers are MIA. Too many fathers are AWOL. They’ve abandoned their responsibilities. They’re acting like boys instead of men.
And God Bless these wonderful MIA fathers. Their abandoned children should get on their knees and worship them by writing a book dedicated to them. Surprise, an example where Obama’s rhetoric and action diverge. Obama is an awful human being.
Roy Mustang (2f688e) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:00 pmA troother? How?
Peter (e70d1c) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:06 pmI agree with Patterico’s sentiments. But I also agree with Sarah Palin (or the speechwriter’s) statement that a man who ‘pals around with terrorists [a statement that is pretty close to literally true] is not someone who has the same view of America as I do. Obama is personally decent … probably more than most politicians white or black (I’ve yet to here one word about possible affairs, which politicians seem incapable of avoiding, ‘course Michelle would kill him) But his politics are against mine and against my culture and my people.
Mitchell Young (d3f200) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:19 pmIt should also be said that Obama did play the race card early against Clinton. Moreover he had plenty of surrogates in the Media and blogosphere taking down opposition, no doubt some of them in touch with the campaign.
Mitchell Young (d3f200) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:22 pmRemember a few months ago when at the conclusion of every other post or comment the conservatives around here would add ‘I just need to grab some popcorn’ or ‘Someone pass the popcorn’ or ‘Hey this popcorn is great’? It was hilarious back then because anyone with half a brain should have known that Republicans weren’t going to have a single thing to celebrate about this November.
What I’m saying is, where’s your popcorn now, losers?
chicken marsala (e14852) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:28 pmKevin is right.
chicken marsala (e14852) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:32 pmWhile Patterico has good intentions, no doubt, he is giving an OK to the final mainstream approval of black racism and anti-white racism. Maybe Pat is not affected by anti-white racism, being a lawyer he probably is not. Not that that should matter. Wrong is wrong. EVEN WHEN BLACK PEOPLE DO IT. Unless one feels that blacks are different than the rest of the human race and should not be held to the same standards of decency in our shared society.
If we are going to look the other way and not complain loudly when our President has spent the majority of his adult life furthering anti-white racism in his big “Our God Hates Whites” church, then should we teach our children to adopt the strategy of hate and intimidation to protect their interests?
I get medical care at the Washington, D.C. VAMC.
Mike Jackson (a7da41) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:34 pmIt is common (like two or three times in one visit) to hear black VA employees and medical students refer to their veteran patients as “white boy”. Not to their face directly addressing them, but in front of them, cleary. As in “I’ve got to run the white boy down to X-Ray, then I’ll be back.”
That is what looking the other way accomplishes. A lifetime of service to their country followed by racist abuse from the VA when it is their time to ask for help.
Obama’s Father’s Day speech was very good — miles better than his speech on race. The question is: Will his actions match his words? That is how I will determine how decent of a man he truly is.
Icy Truth (0466e6) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:36 pmcfbleachers – Good to see you here.
My position is that Obama is not a good or decent man ignoring his horrendous and constantly vacillating ideological positions. Good and decent men do not blatantly lie about their life’s history, associations, statements or positions. If you don’t get caught maybe you can convince yourself you weren’t lying. Moral people know they are lying. Obama was busted on the historical record many, many times during the campaign yet the MSM would not report on it or question him. As “he has consistently” said, words matter. Obama is constitutionally incapable of telling the truth. That is not the mark of a good or decent man in my book.
On the ideological front, I believe he is far left although at time he sounded like a conservative to attract votes. How many times have you heard far left politician call for tax cuts for 95% of Americans at the same time they have huge spending agendas? It’s just not believable, right? Yet the Obamatards lapped it right up. I believe if he successfully implements what I fear his domestic and foreign policies are it could do great damage to the country. We still haven’t recovered from Jimmy Carter. Having a Democratic House and Senate only make matters worse.
Like you, however, I will attack his actions and words as they come. He claimed to want change in Washington. So far, his appointment of political thug Rahm Emmanuel, a Rove type political insider, represents absolutely partisan business as usual.
The left’s rage of the past eight years remains undissipated and needs to be channelled somewhere. Conservatives can expect to be attacked from every direction. Attacks on Sarah Palin due to her effectiveness are an indication of the fear of Democrats and moderate Republicans.
Calling conservative reactions to the election rage, anger, unhinged, etc., is just more ludicrous misdirection on the part of the left.
daleyrocks (60704b) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:39 pm165, your conspiracy theories about “BushCo”, are just that theories that are unfounded, but seem to be fact in your sick mind.
PCD (7fe637) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:39 pmOther signs of decency:
1. He hasn’t killed anyone (that we know of).
2. He returned his Auntie’s illegal campaign contribution.
3. He stopped doing fund raisers at William Ayers House & Rashid Khalidi’s House.
4. He followed Oprah’s example and left Jeremiah Wright’s church (15 years after she did).
5. He didn’t disown or throw his white grandmother under the bus while she was alive (in his “religion speech”).
6. He doesn’t spoil his children with Christmas presents.
7. According to many of his supporters, Obama is going to pay my Mortgage, my utility bill, my healthcare expenses and prevent Nevada from becoming beach-front property.
He’s a very decent fellow.
Hunter (37456d) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:39 pmOK, so now you’ve convinced me that Obama is a good father who cares about his daughters. While that is a good start, it doesn’t prove that he and his leftist illuminati ideals will be effective at leading our country.
Jeff (024c6a) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:48 pmHahahahhahaha!
Please keep thinking that.
Hahahahhahahah!
chicken marsala (e14852) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:50 pmPCD:
PCD, I feel sorry that Pat has to deal with dickheads like you in his own party. You’re a terminal disease to pragmatic, sensible conservative principles.
End of discussion, so move on please, you’re dismissed.
Peter (e70d1c) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:51 pmJeff,
The leftist illuminati? Are you a retarded person?
Tell me, what single issue do you really, genuinely fear is going to be jerked to the left under Obama?
chicken marsala (e14852) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:52 pm177, you were dismissed as a Kos Kook long ago. If you left, no one would care. In fact, we might throw a “Peter Going Away” party and not invite Peter.
PCD (7fe637) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:57 pmhttp://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/
Yep, a real decent guy that Hussein.
jamrat (9ed230) — 11/7/2008 @ 12:59 pmLet’s try that again.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/31846_Obama_Takes_a_Shot_at_Nancy_Reagan/comments/#ctop
jamrat (9ed230) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:00 pmA Frontline documentary related a funny anecdote. While sitting in a committee meeting chaired by Biden and after listening to him hold forth for upwards of half an hour, Obama passed one of his staffers a note that contained three words: “Shoot. Me. Now.” I think we can all relate to that.
sierra (4be1ff) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:02 pmComment by Dave Mattheisen — 11/7/2008 @ 11:16 am
The point that was attempting to be made was, if you wanted to stay away (by removing PP from your Fave List), why did you come back?
Your snide comment at 1116 deseves a Gumpism…
Another Drew (fd30bc) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:07 pmStupid is, as Stupid does.
“…deserves…”
Another Drew (fd30bc) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:08 pmHmmmmm.
@ Patterico
I took some time to think about what you’re trying to say.
After thinking about it I can conclusively say:
Go fuck yourself.
I don’t know why you’ve decided to start kissing ass. But I don’t have time to waste on shitheads like you.
memomachine (6ab657) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:09 pmComment by Peter — 11/7/2008 @ 11:47 am
Except, all of the post-election studies done by the media and the academy found that Gore lost, and that all of the proper proceedures were followed by the Governor, and the Sec of State.
Your lies are just another example of what Eric was talking about.
STFU, Peter!
Another Drew (fd30bc) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:13 pmWe need more comity posts like this one to bring out the best in both sides.
Kevin Murphy (0b2493) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:19 pmThe Decent One just mocked Nancy Reagan (recovering from a fall) at his first press conference. He says he won’t be holding any seances to talk with dead presidents like Nacy Reagan.
You’re right, Pat. Good Man. Good heart. God Bless our classy president-elect.
Mike Jackson (a7da41) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:20 pmKing George III was also a good man. (He really did try hard to be a good King for The British Empire, before his madness, and He was greatly mourned at his death.) His government did tyrannical things, like close the port of Boston. I think the Freedom Of Choice Act is worse than closing the port of Boston. Our Founding Fathers called King George and Parliment tyrants. So, Patrick, would you ethically call President-Elect Obama a tyrant?
Yours,
Wince and Nod (966b00) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:23 pmWince
And The One wants forced, unpaid labor from our children. What’s the word for that? Hmmm, escapes me at the moment.
“Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.”
http://www.change.gov/americaserves/
What would The O say if Bush were to require this his children?
TakeFive (7c6fd5) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:30 pm#188, you’re right. What point was there in referring to former First Lady Nancy Reagan? It was just a snipe at a woman how he has never had anything to do with. This, to me, speaks to the very core of the man who is POTUS-elect and how he will govern.
His lessons from Rahm Emanuel must be intensive.
retire05 (618576) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:36 pmI may be wrong but I understand your point to be that conservatives should be courteous to Obama, but I disagree that Obama is entitled to courtesy because he earned it by being a decent father or candidate. Courtesy is something people owe each other, whether it’s reciprocated or not.
Thus, I think it’s good to respond to Obama’s win with maturity and to urge people not to respond with the bitterness Obama himself has claimed is characteristic of conservatives. It’s also fine to point out qualities conservatives appreciate and paint a more positive picture of Obama’s character. As my friend the defense counsel used to say: Everyone is some mother’s child. But as every litigator knows, pointing out positive character traits opens the door to negative character traits, and Obama has his fair share of those, too.
DRJ (cb68f2) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:36 pm#190, “What’s the word for that?”
Jugend.
retire05 (618576) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:38 pmI thought Hillary Clinton held a seance to channel Elanore Roosevelt.
The Reagans used fortune tellers and astrology.
Fritz (81d848) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:43 pmhttp://www.cnn.com/US/9606/24/clinton.houston/
Fritz (81d848) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:51 pmObama attacked a crippled man for being unable to use a computer.
Where’s the decency there?
PrestoPundit (ff5e16) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:56 pmObama — falsely — smeared his grandmother as a racist for the sole reason of advancing his own political career.
Was that “decent”?
Madelyn Dunham’s brother didn’t think so.
And he said so.
You can Google it.
PrestoPundit (ff5e16) — 11/7/2008 @ 1:58 pmObama teamed up with ACORN thugs to disrupt public meetings — and intimidate public officials.
That’s got to go right to the top of the “decency” list, right?
PrestoPundit (ff5e16) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:03 pmThe Obama led Chicago machine made sure to leak the private divorce records of his political opponent.
VERY decent, I’d say.
PrestoPundit (ff5e16) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:05 pmObama smeared one of his basketball coaches for calling people”n***ers” in front of the whole team. No one has ever been able to substantiate the story, most likely because it never happened.
Very decent, that.
PrestoPundit (ff5e16) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:08 pmI’ve just gotten started. Want more?
PrestoPundit (ff5e16) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:09 pmPatterico, the beast you have been feeding has now turned on you. It is clear they did not really know your true intentions. May God give you wisdom and patience to navigate through this. It’s a mess.
love2008 (18ee66) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:09 pmWhen you discuss the most brilliant, accomplished people in the history of the United States of America, two names that must be mentioned are Paul Robeson and Helen Keller. Both overcame unbelievably long odds to change perceptions about people who were not white, wealthy, male, or fully-abled. Nevertheless, in both cases, inequalities inherent in American society in their day led them to embrace leftist revolutionaries.
Keller overcame blindness and deafness to become a living example of how the disabled can be productive members of society. She also was an ardent feminist of the Susan B. Anthony tradition. But this was her reaction to news of the Bolshevik revolution in a speech before socialists gathered for a march in New York City:
Robeson, son of a slave, excelled both athletically and academically; only the third black student in the Rutgers University’s history, he was an All-American athlete and valedictorian (can you imagine that?). He played professional football to pay his tuition to Columbia University’s law school, but after earning a law degree and being hired by a law firm, his assigned secretary refused to take dictation from him. He spoke at least a dozen languages fluently. He was an internationally acclaimed Shakespearean and Broadway actor and singer, but his audiences were divided by race. His experience performing in the Soviet Union was more positive. From Wikipedia (FWIW):
The illusion of Soviet equality blinded even a brilliant man to the weight of the crimes of Joseph Stalin. Here is a portion of what Robeson wrote after Stalin died in 1953:
Some aspects of both Keller and Robeson’s activism have become acceptable in the 21st Century; to mistreat or discriminate against someone who is female, disabled or black seems un-American now, but it wasn’t necessarily thought so in their eras. Their reaction was to choose to be “un-American,” and radical. One could argue they provided, through their high-profile dissent, aid and comfort to America’s enemies at the time, but neither of them were personally responsible for any permanent damage to any individual or the nation. In that sense, while their words and support benefited tyrants, they were not personally evil or indecent. But keep this in mind: Neither Keller nor Robeson ever was elected President, which would have given either person the power to fundamentally transform America so it would more closely resemble their beloved socialist model.
Now, somebody has.
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:12 pmI don’t believe that we are racists and I sincerely hope that you are being sarcastic. How can we move to fix our nation’s greatest challenges if we approach these issues with curt responses? Analyzing how race and/or racism in America has evolved sociologically is not being racist. It’s being logical. It’s using as a basis, Socratic thought and investigation. Don’t get me wrong, it takes a lot of work to make observations about the natural phenomena that we experience everyday and then to propose and test hypotheses based on these observations in an effort to understand why these phenomena exist. Those who use Socractic thought understand that their hypotheses may be wrong and are constantly revising their original ideas. For example, it’s easy for you to dismiss what I have said about Obama’s election as President as not being the cure-all for all racism in the USA as my belief that all US citizens are racist. It seems as though you think that if America’s racism is not 100% cured by Obama’s Presidency that I think that all Americans are racist. This is baseless. In a prior post, I listed a few statistics to prove not that all Americans are racist, but rather that their still exists segments of society, including low income whites, blacks, and other non-whites that are underprivileged in our society. It is baseless to assert that the reason for these disparities is that all Americans are racist. That is your hypothesis and after a bit of investigation, you will find that these disparities exist NOT because of racism, but other factors. Think about using Socratic thought to truly understand the origins, causes, and effects of why America is not entirely cured of racism. Baseless assertions are easy to make because it takes no research or thought to make a baseless remark. I believe that it is a daunting task for many individuals, including yourself JD, to go to the library, read congressional reports, perform experiments, and write papers with references to really analyze the issues that we face. Obama is a very measured and studious individual, who will help America because he does not only rely on his gut, as Bush has claimed to do many times. Looking into Putin’s eyes, and claiming to see his soul is baseless and shouldn’t have any relevance in politics. Bush would’ve done well if he took the time out to read, do research, ask questions, and not force those working for him to have loyalty to him as the top priority. I love debates because they force me to think and often times rethink my position. You should consider adopting that point of view.
Da Bombz Diggity (f489d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:13 pmTwo political approaches (from Lileks):
1. I disagree with my opponent’s position on taxation, and therefore I shall oppose it.
2. I disagree with my opponent’s position on taxation, and therefore I believe he has sex with goats.
CTCrew (0d3ab5) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:15 pmI think Patterico is confusing Obama’s public face with his private face. Obama is much like Edwards in that respect. Some people loved Edwards and refused to see what kind of person he really is. We will soon find out Obama true character.
Roy Mustang (2f688e) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:19 pmRemember a few months ago when at the conclusion of every other post or comment the conservatives around here
I don’t remember seeing a post from you before here – but suddenly, you have detailed opinions regarding the history of other commenter’s posts. Let’s have some links to support that statement, or else admit you’re just Trolling for dollars.
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:20 pmHmmmmm.
@ Patterico
I took some time to think about what you’re trying to say.
After thinking about it I can conclusively say:
Go fuck yourself.
I don’t know why you’ve decided to start kissing ass. But I don’t have time to waste on shitheads like you.
Comment by memomachine — 11/7/2008 @ 1:09 pm
love2008 (18ee66) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:22 pmNow that is going very far. You can respectfully disagree with our host without the insults. You, my dear are sick. You are also one of the reasons why the Repcan party is in this mess. You are unAmerican. And you will most surely be banned. Idoit!
#193
Jugend
Jugendstil is a term coined around 1903 in German-speaking areas to describe a vast cultural movement.
Not the word I imagined, but it will do.
TakeFive (7c6fd5) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:23 pmActually, McCain called Obama “That One” not “The One”.
Anyway, Obama is not requiring any child to be forced into unpaid labor. Are you so damn selfish that you don’t see the positives in having young people serve the communities that they love? If young people felt more connected to their communities, connected to this wonderful democracy, willing to serve their communities, willing to serve in the armed forces to protect America, then maybe all of us will be better off. Because we would all realize that nothing comes for free. Everything is gained through hard work and people like Bush wouldn’t be rewarded for being lazy and skipping the National Guard as TakeFive would seem to prefer. Having our young people serve our democracy in small ways will help them to foster healthy relationships and NOT feel compelled to shoot up schools every couple of years or cheat or steal or do other criminal acts. Also, Bush does require service of our children, but only to go into an unjustified war and then prosecuted against when those in the military carry out Bush’s support of torture against detainees and war prisoners.
Da Bombz Diggity (f489d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:23 pmlove2008 wrote: Idoit!
Lovey, two words: Spel Chek.
Unless you meant to say, “I do it.” To which I reply, “Fine. I don’t care. Just make sure your blinds are drawn.”
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:28 pmDecency should be self evident. If you have to do do a presentation to attempt to show it, well, that says something about the original proposition.
Bilby (5eeb8d) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:30 pmDa Bombz Diggity wrote:
“Anyway, Obama is not requiring any child to be forced into unpaid labor”
Read Obama’s website:
“…developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service…”
Now how about George Bush requiring 50 hours from your kid? You’d be okay with that, right?
Read up on Obama’s organizing efforts in the Chicago schools if you want to know where this is headed.
TakeFive (7c6fd5) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:30 pmDa Bombz Diggity wrote:
“Also, Bush does require service of our children, but only to go into an unjustified war…”
How do you require someone to volunteer? I know Bush has scary awesome powers, but your talking Jedi Mind Trick kind of stuff.
TakeFive (7c6fd5) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:34 pmHere’s a link to that POS taking a shot at Mrs. Reagan. Good man my tush.
Old Coot (8a493c) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:36 pmOf course I’m okay with it. I encourage young people to volunteer all of the time. I’ve always done community service, even though it was never required. In fact, much of my success comes from helping others who have remembered my efforts and have repaid me much more than I could ever have imagined. You should try volunteering sometime, maybe you wouldn’t be so bitter.
Da Bombz Diggity (f489d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:37 pmthe above comment by ‘diggity’ exemplifies why patterico has no business defending obama and should get back to the business of total warfare against these people. they are our enemy, they use every underhanded, evil, dirty, unfair and untrue tactic. If we’ve learned anything in 2008, it’s that being decent, fair and honorable in our campaign is a loser, while smearing your opponent, fighting total war, repeating smears, etc. etc. works.
I see ZERO evidence obama is decent. He’s the enemy of America, and every decent American should fight everything he does with every weapon at their disposal. Being fair and sportsmanlike gets you nothing.
total war. starting now, demonize Obama. Destroy his mystique. Question his motives. Use Alinsky’s book against his disciple. Low information voters won the election for Obama, and they absorb this stuff. Make up propaganda, fake quotes, fight dirty, assign base motives, accuse obama of being evil, stupid, divisive, racist and hate driven.
we need to control the presidency for the next wave of SCOTUS vacancies after Obama is defeated. we need the Senate to confirm them. The war starts now, and words like “decency” have no meaning in our current political atmosphere.
Obama has the entire MSM in the tank for him, “patterico”. He doesn’t need rightblogs running interference and posting puff pieces, really, they do it much better. wtf is your point, anyway?
the “100 years” comment. the mocking of mccain’s inability to use a computer. the distortion of the “fundamentals” quote. obama is NOT a decent person. his campaign bullshit might end up proving him a criminal. I say start a drumbeat for impeachment IMMEDIATELY, then start looking for cause. I don’t see this as a losing philosophy. Sucking obama’s ass is the only losing philosophy I know of.
docweasel (501e56) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:37 pm“Anyway, Obama is not requiring any child to be forced into unpaid labor.”
Sounds to me like he wants to force people to work, whether they want to or not…same thing the Dems have always wanted: Obedient servants.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:37 pmDa Bombs Diggity (whatever, dude) wrote: Everything is gained through hard work and people like Bush wouldn’t be rewarded for being lazy and skipping the National Guard as TakeFive would seem to prefer.
“Skipping the National Guard”? Whole Lee Currappe, are you digging that Shinola up despite the fact the POTUS-elect (‘I would have joined up if we were still in Vietnam’) and his VP-E (five deferments, just like Cheney, whom your ilk called “chickenhawk”) have ZERO days of military experience? W’s Texas Air National Guard service was the most military time any President has had since 1992 (when his father departed and draft-dodger Clinton entered), and will be the most until 2012 at the least.
Review your moonbat talking points, “Diggity” — that attack only works when YOUR guy has military experience and the other guy has NONE. Sheesh!
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:38 pmDa Bombz, you spit in the face of every man and woman in uniform that volunteered to join the military. They weren’t required to fight for our country. They choose to fight for our country.
Roy Mustang (2f688e) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:39 pmSome of you here sound like some of those warped heads who booed on McCain for calling Obama a decent man.”I have to tell you he is a decent person and a person that you do not have to be scared of as president of the United States.” John McCain.
First it was McCain. Now it is Patterico.
love2008 (18ee66) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:39 pmGood God! Obama is a good and decent guy? Well, I suppose, if you define that as not beating his wife or applying corporal punishment to his kids. But, let’s be honest here, it’s not about what you say, it’s about what you do. Of course, we know he is a Clintonian style smoothie when it comes to speaking. But basically all we know about him is how he conducted his campaign. And that was a long list of distractions, cover-ups, smears, vote fraud, illegal contributions and flip-flops. Either he didn’t know what was going on – and therefore he would classify as incapable of managing a General Store, let alone the USG bureaucracy. Or he was using front-men to conduct one solid stone-cold, take no-prisoners campaign. I don’t celebrate that kind of guy as my President. BTW, for the fellow above, what is it about the word “require” that you can’t understand? No, sir, by his own words he is guilty of calling for forced labor, pure and simple. Welcome to Gulag USA.
boqueronman (a0cc7d) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:39 pmDiggity da Bum wrote: You should try volunteering sometime, maybe you wouldn’t be so bitter.
What makes you think TakeFive doesn’t?
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:41 pmlove2008 wrote: Some of you here sound like some of those warped heads who booed on McCain for calling Obama a decent man.
So, lovey: how did you feel about the Philadelphia hockey fans that booed Sarah Palin? Be honest.
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:42 pm“First it was McCain. Now it is Patterico.”
Sorry, but some of us don’t agree with their assessment.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:43 pmHere’s a link to that POS taking a shot at Mrs. Reagan. Good man my tush.
Comment by Old Coot — 11/7/2008 @ 2:36 pm
Ha, Ha, Ha. Reagan is dead. FU Obama.
Roy Mustang (2f688e) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:43 pmDa Bombz Diggity wrote:
“I’ve always done community service, even though it was never required…much of my success comes from helping others…”
Ah, there’s the rub; never required.
And naturally, something YOU feel good about, must be good for all. Like my neighbor who insists that regular colonics and ox bile pills will make you healthy and happy. She thinks my skepticism just means I’m closed minded.
TakeFive (7c6fd5) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:46 pmComment by L.N. Smithee — 11/7/2008 @ 2:38 pm
love2008 (18ee66) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:47 pmHey LN, how did you feel to see your brother make history for your kids? Were you proud? Was it an emotional moment for you?
“Also, Bush does require service of our children, but only to go into an unjustified war…”
No, thanks to Republicans like Dick Nixon, we have an all volunteer military. It’s you liberals who FORCED millions of Americans into the military, in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam.
Republicans request service, Democrats demand it…at the point of a gun.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:47 pmComment by L.N. Smithee — 11/7/2008 @ 2:42 pm
love2008 (18ee66) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:51 pmSarah Palin is no longer a VP candidate. I will allow her to go back to her state and continue the good work she has being doing for the people of Alaska. It is best we let sleeping dogs lie.
Don’t like Obama? TOUGH. Deal with it.
Justforkix (d6981f) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:52 pm13th Amendment
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Always has been ignored by the “liberals”. Sounds like Obama is getting ready to carry on in that proud tradition.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:53 pmDon’t like criticism of Doh-bama? Tough! Deal with it!
Mossberg500 (9fd170) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:54 pmDon’t feed the trolls, love2008.
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:55 pmThere has never been a decent man out of Chicago politics.
Gerald A (b5282f) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:57 pmSimple. Anyone who volunteers to join the National Guard or any other portion of our Military, volunteers to help America because they believe that the President will only send them into a JUSTIFIED war and will encourage them to be LAW ABIDING. However, Bush has REQUIRED volunteers of the military to enter an unjustified war, the Iraq War, and to perform unlawful acts that go against the grain of their training with regards to the Geneva Conventions for example. So, you’re right it’s not proper to require a volunteer to do anything, but President Bush has done just that. Ever heard of the “expose of fifty American combat veterans of the Iraq War who give vivid on-the-record accounts of the US military occupation in Iraq and describe a brutal side of the war rarely seen on television screens or chronicled in newspaper accounts”?
Da Bombz Diggity (f489d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:58 pmLovey, two words: Spel Chek.
Unless you meant to say, “I do it.” To which I reply, “Fine. I don’t care. Just make sure your blinds are drawn.”
Comment by L.N. Smithee — 11/7/2008 @ 2:28 pm
love2008 (18ee66) — 11/7/2008 @ 2:59 pmLN, two words: Spell check. And don’t sound like an
“idiot”. And yes, “I do it.” What about you? 🙂
“Don’t like Obama? TOUGH. Deal with it.”
No, I don’t like him, or the political party he belongs to, and I intend to do everything in my power, such as it is, to undermine him and to prevent the implementation of his policies.
That’s how I plan on dealing.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:01 pmComment by snuffles — 11/7/2008 @ 2:55 pm
love2008 (18ee66) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:03 pmLMHO.
How things can change on the same blog. 😉
it takes courage to say those words.
it takes even more to stand behind them. Obama seems to lack conviction, character and substance. Anyone voting present 200 times or so is pretty piable, bendable and plastic.
Anyone that can have friends, employers and rainmakers for 20 years and then abandon them when they find out the friends are thieves, bandits, bigots, terrorists and or racists does not have much conviction, foresight or character.
Sorry, Obama will not be getting a xmas card from me.
Obama will prove he is a prime part of the Chicago way of political thuggery.
Typical Whte Person (9f4d2e) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:04 pmHaha,
Laissez Les Bon Temps Roulez indeed, love.
As if every squeal from the right about Obama’s “character” doesn’t generate a hearty chuckle from us, eh?
I think I’m gonna enjoy the next 8 years.
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:06 pmI never said that every man and woman in uniform was required to fight for our country. Read the quote again:
I said that the only service that Bush requires is that our soldiers, who volunteered to protect America, are being forced to fight an unjustified war in Iraq and to commit atrocities against human beings by using torture that goes against the Geneva Conventions, by which our soldiers have been trained to abide.
Da Bombz Diggity (f489d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:10 pm“Simple. Anyone who volunteers to join the National Guard or any other portion of our Military, volunteers…”
That’s right. No one is being required to serve. It’s your choice.
And, that’s the way it ought to be.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:13 pmOf course I’m okay with it. I encourage young people to volunteer all of the time
Then followed by this:
However, Bush has REQUIRED volunteers of the military to enter an unjustified war, the Iraq War, and to perform unlawful acts that go against the grain of their training with regards to the Geneva Conventions for example
You gave the game away through your complete ignorance of our military, which is not too surprising, considering some of the comments left here regarding military service over the past few years. No one joins the military with any notions that they may do as they please, and that their lives thereafter are self – determined. They pledge their lives to perform their duties as their Commander – in – Chief wishes, regardless of their personal feelings about the matter in question.
Either admit you have no idea what you’re talking about here, or continue to beclown yourself further. Your choice.
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:18 pmDa Bombz Diggity wrote:
“Anyone who volunteers to join the National Guard or any other portion of our Military, volunteers to help America because they believe that the President will only send them into a JUSTIFIED war..”
No. You submit to the authority of your commanding officer. You don’t get to pick and choose deployment based on whether your standards of JUSTIFED are met.
Further, it would be unlikely not to be deployed after joining the military. How may actions have we had since WWII? Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Haiti, Kosovo, Iran 1, Iran 2, and probably a few I missed. Pretty much every president has deployed troops. Were any of those JUSTIFIED?
TakeFive (7c6fd5) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:19 pmGood for you, Patrick.
It’s not always easy to do the right thing, especially when there is so much pressure to do otherwise.
No one worked harder than I did to point out the flaws in Barack Obama’s candidacy. I pointed out the Wright thing long before anyone else was on it.
But a time comes when, if you love your country and you respect the office, you lay all that aside. You don’t have to get behind policies you disagree with. But you don’t criminalize policy disagreements and you attack the ideas, not the person.
We don’t win converts by appearing to be zealots. Sweet reason, at the end of the day, is what wins the people in the middle.
And let’s face it: the Dems have painted us as haters for too long. Let’s not prove them right. Give the man his due, but no more. Be scrupulously fair in all things. Show him the full respect of the office, and then we can point out with justice the wrong that was done the 43rd President.
Cassandra (6f0d0c) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:19 pmAs if every squeal from the right about Obama’s “character” doesn’t generate a hearty chuckle from us, eh?
You’re mistaking the odor emanating from your backside as some kind of thought process again – but to be honest, the two are remarkably similar in tone and content.
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:20 pmOkay Dave, hypothetically speaking, let’s say that you volunteered to join the military because you wanted to serve your country by abiding by the law and killing terrorists. What if an official in the military gave you the task of destroying a military target, but you happened to realize that the target that you were tasked to destroy houses some civilians as well as a suspected terrorist. Let’s say that some of the civilians included a few members of your family and you knew this. If you were told that you must take out the target with no questions asked, would you feel required or forced to kill people that you did not want to kill?
That’s why truncating my quote renders it meaningless, because the truncated quote does not capture the feelings you would have, if you were forced to kill members of your family in order to kill a suspected terrorist or go against the grain of your good morals.
Da Bombz Diggity (f489d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:23 pmComment by snuffles — 11/7/2008 @ 3:06 pm
I am having fun watching these bigots speaking over each other’s heads. Pass the popcorn!
love2008 (18ee66) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:24 pmIt is indeed enjoyable, love.
But I truly believe the Republican party needs to dump their religious fanatics if they want to be competitive at the national level again.
Perhaps this is just part of that process?
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:32 pm“What if an official in the military gave you the task of destroying a military target, but you happened to realize that the target that you were tasked to destroy houses some civilians as well as a suspected terrorist…”
Then you have to follow orders. You aren’t allowed to refuse to obey an order on that basis. If you don’t like the rules, then don’t join up.
Simple.
Unfortunately, when the liberals are running the country, people usually don’t have a choice about whether they get to join up or not, because liberals believe in involuntary servitude and they usually employ conscript armies.
One of the many reasons I loathe liberals and the Democrat Party.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:32 pmIf that is correct, then you must believe that the result of the Nuremberg trials that denied soldiers accused of crimes the use of the excuse that they were ONLY following orders, to be unacceptable. That is quite astounding.
Da Bombz Diggity (f489d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:33 pmBut a time comes when, if you love your country and you respect the office, you lay all that aside. You don’t have to get behind policies you disagree with. But you don’t criminalize policy disagreements and you attack the ideas, not the person.
Cassandra, you want to know the difference between us and the lefties? The lefties (not all of them, but a sizable chunk) take the attitude that they love America, but only when their type of people are running it. Isn’t it interesting to see all of them suddenly talk about what a great country this is after eight years of their Amerikkka nonsense? Those of us on the right (the vast majority of us, I would venture) love America no matter who is running it.
But that doesn’t mean we have to support bad policies from the coming Administration and their minions in Congress.
JVW (f93297) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:35 pm“Sen. Barack Obama said firmly that families are off-limits in the campaign for president”
He said “families” rather than minor children because he wanted to deflect attacks on his wife’s resentful statements.
And to repeat, “Talk is cheap.”
Jim C. (33af9d) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:37 pmComment #251 —
The Nuremberg Trials dealt with high-ranking Nazi officials, not Nazi “soldiers” as you claim. Your analogy is uninformed and meaningless.
JVW (f93297) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:37 pm“God DAMN America! KKK of A! America’s Chickens [9/11] have come home to roost!”
These are all things Obama agrees with, anyone who thinks they were only expressed one time when he was magically NOT at Trinity should contact me immediately about some Nigerian funds I have in mind.
Seriously. Obama is objectively a bad man. No matter how much you kiss his behind Patterico, you will still end up in Bill Ayer’s Death Camp right next to me.
Might as well be hung for sheep as a lamb. Better to die on your feet than groveling on your knees.
But then I am a free man, and need bow to no jumped up Televangelist who fancies himself a New God. He might have his New Age Fascist Bill Ayers shoot me in a Death Camp (as Ayers planned — hey THAT’S who he had babysitting his kids and writing his book), but he can’t make me worship his racist, murderous face.
Obama is NOT my President. I will never support him and hope for nothing but very bad things to happen to him and his racist, murderous clown show pals.
whiskey (e09923) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:37 pmDa Bombz Diggity wrote:
I won’t argue that Bush’s decision making has been consistently sound. But to suggest that Obama has it over Bush is selective reasoning.
IMHO, President Bush’s final hour was in August 2001, when he was faced with the dilemma of stem cell research and whether to authorize federal funding that would destroy human embryos. He alone had the burden of deciding, but didn’t “rely on his gut.” In a January 11, 2007 New York Sun article expounded on in the January 2008 edition of Commentary, Jay Lefkowitz — a White House staffer in 2001 — wrote this:
Of course, since then, there have been breakthroughs in adult stem cell research that were only supposed to be possible by destroying embryos. Bush asked questions, sought counsel, and GOT IT RIGHT.
OTOH, Obama and Biden were certain about their doubt the surge would fail. What kind of reading, research, and questions did they ask to get it 100% wrong? Biden even figured subdividing Iraq into three religio-ethnic regions was the most prudent action. Can you imagine American troops being caught in four-way crossfire across Iraq? It’s lunacy!
(And PLEASE don’t reply with the red herring that he never would have been in the war in the first place. We’re in it now, and Obama WANTED the job.)
Bush LEARNED from his mistake, fired Rumsfeld, hired Gates, trusted Petraeus, and Iraq is healing itself now. Had Mr. Studious Cool Columbia Harvard or Sen. Foreign Policy Expert That’s Smarter Than You been in charge instead of Bush, it would likely be a bloodbath on top of renewed Taliban attacks in Afghanistan.
But Obama doesn’t have the humility to even admit he was wrong, as the White House press corps was demanding Bush do circa 2004. Hopefully, that too will “change.”
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:38 pmPatterico:
It looks like the “good guy” Obama didn’t last long, judging from this comment during his press conference today (courtesy of LGF):
“President-elect Obama at his first press conference, answering a question about whether he had spoken to any previous president:
In terms of speaking to former presidents, I have spoken to all of them, uh, that are, uh, living … obviously, uh, President Clinton, uh … [laughter] … hey, I didn’t want to get into a Nancy Reagan, uh, thing about doin’ any seances…
A cheap shot at Nancy Reagan, who is currently recovering from a fall in which she broke her hip. Classy.”
Yep, Mr. “Classy”
Herrina (298ede) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:39 pmSo was Abu Ghraib justified? If soldiers must ONLY submit to the authority of their commanding officer, then you must believe that Abu Ghraib was justified. Rumsfeld told the higher ups to make sure that certain torture techniques were used. John Yoo “wrote memos in which he advocated the possible legality of torture and that enemy combatants could be denied protection under the Geneva Conventions.” But the soldiers who submitted to the authority of their commanders were prosecuted for submitting to the authority of their commanders, which leads me to what I said earlier…
Da Bombz Diggity (f489d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:42 pmComment by snuffles — 11/7/2008 @ 3:32 pm
love2008 (18ee66) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:43 pmDump? Fanatism is the life-wire of these guys. Evidenced by some of the jerks posting here. Someone even went as far as telling the host to “Go f*ck yourself..” Just because he called the next President a “decent man.” If they continue like this, the Dems could stay in power till 2032!
Your “evidence” consists entirely of things Obama has said. Saying the right thing costs Obama next to nothing. (Especially with the press in his hip pocket, of if you consider how many times he’s said exactly the opposite of his previous position.) But what did he actually do about these moral outrages? Did he throw any reporters from newspapers that attacked Palin’s daughters off of his campaign’s plane? No, nor did he dismiss campaign workers who spread rumors about her, as McCain did. But he threw reporters off his plane if their newspaper didn’t endorse him for President. Talk is cheap, and talk is all we get from Obama on issues of decency. But on things that affect his personal power, we get action.
Socratease (64f814) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:48 pmIf they continue like this, the Dems could stay in power till 2032!
If rudeness on blogs was a sign of a philosophy in disarray, love2008, the Dems would have been waxed in the last election. Just look at how Kos, DU, and all the others treated Hillary, Liebermann, and any other Dem that they didn’t think was ideologically pure, or who stood in the way of the Dear Leader-elect.
JVW (f93297) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:49 pm“Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.”–Obama & co.
If we let guys like this run the country, involuntary servitude will be the order of the day, and we’ll be back to conscript armies before you can say “selective service”…if we’re lucky.
If we’re not lucky, we’ll end up picking cotton bolls for these guys 365 days a year…all for the greater GOOD, and also to serve the COMMUNITY, of course.
Same as it ever was. John C. Calhoun on why involuntary servitude was in everyone’s best interest:
“But I take higher ground. I hold that in the present state of civilization, where two races of different origin, and distinguished by color, and other physical differences, as well as intellectual, are brought together, the relation now existing in the slaveholding States between the two, is, instead of an evil, a good, a positive good.”
These Democrat pricks never change. All that ever changes is their particular justification for enslaving people.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:52 pmBe angry about Obama. Just do something about it. Use your voice. Let us not be like the Dem’s who threw temper-tantrums for the last 8 years. We are better than that! Look into what Ronald Reagan’s son is doing: http://www.reaganaction.com . No contributions are required, although asked for. I just signed up because I want to be part of the solution and feel that bickering is part of the problem. Take action! Please!!! We need to focus on 2010 and we will not be ready unless we start now!
A Californian (485ef9) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:53 pmIt is indeed enjoyable, love.
Looks like some hot Bobo/Troll action’s being planned for tonight, even as we speak. Are they going to make hot, dissident monkey love as they throw stones at the local Starbucks and chant about the evil Rethuglicans? Only they know for sure.
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:54 pmIf we’re not lucky, we’ll end up picking cotton bolls for these guys 365 days a year…all for the greater GOOD, and also to serve the COMMUNITY, of course.
No, if we are NOT lucky we’ll end up being forced to volunteer for ACORN, or Planned Parenthood, or the Sierra Club. I’ll pick cotton over working for those crooks any day.
JVW (f93297) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:55 pmlove2008 wrote:
I don’t participate in ethnic pride. I have siblings, but Barack Obama is not “my brother.” If I were to be proud of Obama because he’s black and was elected President, that would be counterbalanced by the misdeeds and atrocities committed by African-American criminals and charlatans on a regular basis.
Yeah, it was an emotional moment for me, because for the first time in my life, after watching the election of six Presidents, I felt like I was living in a nation in which a significant portion of the population worships a national leader like a god.
I have heard first-person accounts of life in countries like that. I have read histories of what happens when people are given that kind of adulation. It makes me sad to think it could possibly happen here.
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:55 pmThis is a staggeringly stupid thing to say. The percentage of black Americans born out of wedlock in 1900 was much lower than it was in 1990. If slavery really did cause the collapse of the family structure, why was the black family structure stronger 35 years after slavery than it was 125?
Steverino (6b42c9) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:56 pmIsn’t it time to Move On?
ricky (f498d0) — 11/7/2008 @ 3:59 pmI notice of the cites of the “decent things” about Obama are all things he said.
None of these counteract the things that he did…actions speak louder than words.
rls (14b9d3) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:00 pmSteverino (#268) —
I think also that the out-of-wedlock rates for Black families didn’t start their rapid increase until the 1960s (maybe the 1950s), right about the time we started implementing the sort of welfare programs which the Dear Leader-elect seems to have such a fondness for.
JVW (f93297) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:00 pmComment by L.N. Smithee — 11/7/2008 @ 3:55 pm
love2008 (18ee66) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:06 pmLiar, liar!
There is no evidence to suggest that we are winning the Iraq War. And if Iraq were healing itself, all troops would have left the region. Michael Ware of CNN reported in an interview the following:
In fact we may be seeing a repeat of why Al Qaeda initiated war against us in the first place. “Remember the Cold War? Remember the US need to dominate the world and crush the Soviet Union’s power and influence? Well, the blowback that we are experiencing today saw its birth in our need to compete with the Soviet Union. In the 1980s, the CIA found a friend in Osama bin Laden who was willing to work with Guerrilla groups, like the mujahadeen guerrillas, to oppose the soviet occupiers. Upon the invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union the US gov’t armed every single mujahadeen with weapons. Doesn’t this sound plausible especially since the US was actively trying to win the Cold War? As a result of the US backed support of these guerrillas many civilians as well as militants died and many civilians became refugees. This fueled the resentment against the US and later became fuel for al-Qaeda to come after innocent US civilians.”
In my opinion, the violence may be down temporarily, but does that mean that these terrorists on the US payroll will have a change of heart and not plan to attack us anymore in the future? I don’t think so.
Da Bombz Diggity (f489d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:08 pm“Obama Decency” will likely become a world-class oxymoron.
Perfect Sense (9d1b08) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:10 pmComment #273 —
For all your pretensions about “Socratic dialogue” expressed in your earlier posts, it seems clear that you are only interested in facts and opinion that bolster the ideas which you have already formed. You clearly want to filter everything through an anti-Bush (and, dare I say it, anti-American) prism. Re-fighting the Cold War — apparently on the side of the communists, or at least the anti-anti-communists — is the major tip-off.
JVW (f93297) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:15 pmAs an attorney and blogger, you should know your reasoning about how you arrived at your conclusion is pretty weak. Essentially, you believe what you do because Barack Obama has said some good and decent things, and chosen not to repeat what some of his supporters have said, which in your mind trumps the bad he’s done and the harm he intends to do. But it would be just as rational to believe he’s a bad man who’s done bad things in the past, intends to do more, despite the fact he’s managed to say some good and decent things on occasion. It really comes down to what evidence you think is more important. So the most rational position to take is to remain an agnostic on the subject and say nothing about the character traits of this politician that neither of us really knows. This is not the same thing as the kind of demonization campaign the left has been conducting against the right; not by a long shot.
This has several advantages. First of all, it would prevent you from being in the position of having to take it back, like you and Beldar have both admitted is entirely possible you will. Beldar wrote that he was deliberately giving Obama the benefit of the doubt despite certain evidence to the contary. You approved of that position, and also said you can see two sides to that coin. I just don’t see any benefit in doing so.
But most importantly, I see a huge downside. The left has conducted a very successful demonization campaign of conservatives as mean, selfish racist. This “good man” has just run a campaign in which he called McCaign a racist, someone who wants to make a virtue of selfishness, and dishonorable.
There was no gesture, no statement, that McCain could have made that could of made to convince the rabid left he wasn’t any of those things. And he tried several. The actual effect went something like “See, we’re right. Obama is the right guy for the job. Even the mean, selfish, dishonorable racist running the most dishonest campaign in history says so.”
Since it is all about focusing on the policies, while we’re getting ready to fight them we need to think about preparing the battlefield. And that starts with not ceding the moral high ground to the policies we know are harmful and the politicians we know will advance them. Which is how conservatives always shoot themselves in the foot.
When Barack Obama attempts to implement those far-left policies that you know will harm the country, those policies will be presented as the kindest, most compassionate, generous set of policies in history. Only mean, selfish, unpatriotic people who don’t want to do their civic duty and hate the idea of a powerful black man in the White House would object. And Republicans, true to form, will offer all kinds of speeches about how we know the Democrats are patriots who love their country, are good and decent, who have their hearts in the right place, but they’re just being impractical and spending to much money on policies “we all agree we’d like to have in a perfect world.” And they won’t respond by saying, “The Republicans are decent human beings after all. We just disagree on issues of financial responsibility.” That’s never how it works. They’ll respond by saying “See, even the Republicans say we are the good guys, those selfish racists who only favor corporate welfare for their Wall Street friends.” And they’ll win.
We need to start being a little smarter. We can’t let them get away with pushing harmful far-left policies on the basis they demonstrate their compassionate natures and noble intentions. It does neither. It is selfish and most definitely not compassionate. The people who have their hearts in the right place are us, not them, who want to stop them from harming the country. Nobody who has a heart could possibly keep doing the same thing over and over on the basis that only intentions and not consequences count.
The net effect of saying how good and decent Obama is simply implies we agree Obama was the right guy. The opposition simply sees that as confirmation of their own decency but not of the decency of the people offering the comment. They will go on believing anyone who voted for John McCain, or more importantly didn’t vote for Barack Obama, did so out of the worst possible motives. And did so knowing deep in their hearts that they committed the evil act despite knowing what a better man Obama is. Who but a racist could do that?
So they will continue to believe all the venom they spew about us. But they will now believe even more strongly in what they say about themselves. Because both sides recognize their own essential goodness.
Steve (d6c111) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:15 pmObama will have a $200 billion a year windfall to allocate once he pulls the plug on the Iraq fiasco, Steve.
Without raising taxes.
He can probably cut the defense budget in half his first year and add another $250 billion a year to that total.
Sounds like a perfect world to me.
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:22 pmLet’s see his said Bristol Palin was off limits while all his surrogates continued to trash her. No, he can’t control everyone, but he had a lot of control over his worshippers and the media. He never really tried to put a stop to it, did he? He was pretty classy towards Nancy Regan today, wasn’t he? How about his own grandmother? That is not to say we couldn’t find one nice thing about Obama, but most people look at the whole person. As a whole, how does Obama measure up – a ego manic,a elitist, a proven liar ? What is it the neighbors always say about some jerk – he seemed so nice. You are only fooling yourself. I certainly hope I’m proven wrong. Being president may change this man for the better.
S Mulder (6569a3) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:23 pmWrong, I am not anti-Bush. I don’t mind if we went out for drinks at a bar. He seems like a pretty fun guy to hang out with and get drunk with, but I DISAGREE WITH HIS POLICIES. Everything I have listed thus far has been ANTI-BUSH’S POLICIES, not Anti-Bush. I have a few great friends and family members in my life, but many of them would NEVER receive my endorsement for President.
I never claimed to re-fight the cold war. I tried to point out that Bush’s policies in Iraq have been tried before and when tried during the Cold War, caused our problems with Al-Qaeda and their killing of innocent Americans. Certainly repeating the tactics that caused Al-Qaeda to come after us in the first place in Iraq is not the way to PREVENT future insurgencies and influence of Al-Qaeda in Iraq and elsewhere around the world. Bush’s policies are purely fanning the flames of the fire. That’s socratic investigation. That’s researching the history and applying tactics used in the past to present day events.
Da Bombz Diggity (f489d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:23 pmDear Da Bombz Diggity (#247):
Thousands upon thousands of mostly strangers that keep you and yours safe and sound; and what do you do with this privilege? Do you acknowledge it, do you even understand it?
Naw, you just make falsehoods that are offensive and insulting to those who serve (and who have served).
You ask ethical questions about battles that you will never take part (what DO you do if ordered to attack that proverbial ‘house’? Is it a lawful order and you obey, or is it unlawful order and you refuse, what if it turns out you were wrong either way? What about your buddies? What orders do you issue? What about the children that will die if you fail to carry out your orders? How do you live with it? This list can go on and on with issues you have not even imagined).
Fortunately for you and your buddies, you will never know how it feels, because you chose not to serve (instant guilt absolution). And as a bonus, you get to criticize your fellow countrymen for doing their best under circumstance you cannot even imagine. And for an extra bonus, you get the benefit of their protection, and still get to bad-mouth them and make yourself feel good.
Of course there is the moral cowardice issue, but heck, don’t let that stop you.
PS: my apologies for temporarily hijacking this thread.
Pons Asinorum (f0d1b9) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:26 pmBomber – You’re as much of a twatwaffle tonight as ever.
What does the indefined term “unjustified” war have to do with your analysis of service in the military? You still have not explained that in response to the questions of others. Free choice is gone once you join the service, that’s the way it works. I can claim a war is “unjustified” because I wanted to sleep late this morning, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have to obey my legally issued deployment orders. Congressionally approved wars don’t have any appearance of being unjustified you socratic crapweasel.
Your attempt to tar the entire military with the actions of a few at Abu Ghraib is disgraceful and typical of your ilk. Illegal orders do not need to be followed.
Next point.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:29 pmI understand that Brakabama always washes his hands after he takes a shit.
Decent. I tell ya what.
ccoffer (137c0d) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:35 pmYou don’t know anything about me or what I’ve done for this nation. You might just stay quiet about things of which you do not know about. I would only talk about things that I know to be true if I were you. Not only do I acknowledge this privilege, but I understand it and have abided by it. But BUSH has denigrated it and does not care about the troops, about those who have risked their lives for this nation. It is incomprehensible that families have to raise money for armor for their children who are serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. Bush could’ve at least had the decency to make sure that all troops have armor upon fighting in his unnecessary war in Iraq. He could at least have the decency to give all Veterans adequates benefits and care upon their return from Iraq. Ever heard of Walter Reed? You and Bush seem to be enthusiastic about sending troops into an unjustified war in Iraq without adequate armor or support for their families and health and to commit torture and then to prosecute those soldiers who follow those orders.
Now, I’m curious, what combat have you done for this nation?
Da Bombz Diggity (f489d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:36 pm“I tried to point out that Bush’s policies in Iraq have been tried before and when tried during the Cold War, caused our problems with Al-Qaeda and their killing of innocent Americans.”
Bomber – Pay attention. Reasical Islam has been at war with the U.S. for more than 30 years. If you had actually done all the reading, studying and thinking you claim to have done you would know this. Our policies in Iraq are not specifically causing Al Qaeda to kill more innocent Americans. You have to be an idiot to believe that type of nonsense. Most of Al Qaeda’s victims in Iraq have actually been Iraqis, not Americans, which is why they have largely been driven out of the country and are having trouble recruiting new mwmbers to meet Allah.
Did you overdose on stupid pills this morning?
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:38 pmRadical Islam
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:39 pmDa Bombz Diggity wrote:
The evidence is that Obama stopped talking about Iraq — his previous raison d’etre — and started talking Afghanistan almost exclusively.
You act as if allies becoming enemies and vice versa and “blowback” is a new thing. It’s not. Read your World History textbooks. Or your US History textbooks. Heck, read your Bible, if you’ve got one.
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:40 pmA few brave soldiers disobeyed the order to go to Iraq, daqley.
Free will needs to be exercized to keep it strong.
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:40 pm“A few brave soldiers disobeyed the order to go to Iraq”
I would not call them brave for disobeying lawful orders. Canada is returning desserters.
Do you encourage anarchy in the military whiffles?
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:43 pmThe government and the media have merged into the Unity Party, very similar to Pravda and the old USSR or Chairman Mao’s Red China. Unity and harmony is what is called for; dissent is punishable by re-education. The media fawned over The Great Redeemer, covering up his thin resume, his radical associations all the while working overtime to trash Gov. Palin and using the entertainment industry (late night tv) to mock and ridicule her every single night so her reputation is ruined.
Attacked by militant muslims are 9/11 and seven years later we elect an Ivy League educated, Saul Alinksy-ite social agitator, with a muslim name and an extremely thin resume.
BruceTi (f6cafd) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:45 pmDo your research, Abu Ghraib is not an isolated incident. The International Red Cross had documented these issues for more than a year before Abu Ghraib. I’ve already helped you along. Do some research on Donald Rumsfeld, John Yoo and their support of the use of torture techniques by our troops. Then do research on the soldiers who have been prosecuted against for following the desires of their higher ups. Abu Ghraib was not the only place where troops were prosecuted for torture. Bush’s policies in Iraq have made a MESS.
Da Bombz Diggity (f489d5) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:45 pm“Free will needs to be exercized to keep it strong.”
That’s one of the reasons we’re still in Iraq dipshit.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:47 pmObama will prove to be far left only to those so far right that anything else is far left. He will prove to be a centrist. As far being a “good man” , he is likely as good or bad as any of us. He did not leave a wife who was injured permanently, as did McCain, and there is no evidence he spent his youth carousing, womanizing, and using family connections to get out of trouble, as is well documented that McCain did. Nor has Obama been censured for being involved in a savings and loan scam that cost thousands their life savings. Nevertheless, many consider McCain a “decent man,” and so should Obama be considered a good and decent man.
Denny (96b541) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:50 pmDittigy Ba Dombz wrote: I’ve already helped you along. Do some research on Donald Rumsfeld, John Yoo and their support of the use of torture techniques by our troops.
Speaking of John Yoo, do you know what Yoo, Susan Estrich, and Barack Obama have in common?
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:50 pmThe Troll du Jour Triumphant writes:
Well, spell check programs need to be exercised to keep those writing skills strong, as well.
I also suspect quite a few 16 ounce curls are taking place, to keep that liver strong.
Time for TdJs to join up to make society better through public service instead of drinking and typing on a blog. That is Hope and Change I can live with!
Eric Blair (0b61b2) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:52 pmDenny wrote: Obama will prove to be far left only to those so far right that anything else is far left. He will prove to be a centrist.
There is NO reason to believe that. You might choose to believe it, but you have no basis.
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:57 pm“The International Red Cross had documented these issues for more than a year before Abu Ghraib.”
Bomber – We weren’t even in Iraq for a year before the Army was investigating Abu Ghraib, before it broke in the media. What the hell are you talking about?
I’m familiar with the Rumsfeld background. Could you try to make a specific point in your attempt at socratic dialogue tather than waving your arms around shouting memos, Rumsfeld, International Red Cross, John Yoo. DO YOU HAVE A SPECIFIC POINT WITH VERIFIABLE FACTS TO SUPPORT YOUR CONTENTIONS OR NOT?
You seem to be mostly all gas and no turd these days Bomber.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/7/2008 @ 4:59 pmDave Surls has brilliantly established the direct philosophical and spiritual link between John C. Calhoun and Barack Obama.
Conscription is slavery. Cheney said it best: some of us have better things to do. It’s simply true. Deal with it.
N. N. (04db65) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:02 pmObama at Al Smith dinner before the Catholic diocese of New York last month:
“The scripture says God creates us for works of service. We are blessed to have so many organizations like this one in the Catholic diocese that perform these acts of God every day. But each of us also have that responsibility. Each of us has that obligation, especially now.
“So no matter who we are or what we do, what I believe is each of us in this room asks for and hopes for and prays for, enough strength and wisdom to do good and to seek justice and play our small part in building a more hopeful and compassionate world for the generations that will follow.”
eyeball (c9fca3) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:04 pmA few brave soldiers disobeyed the order to go to Iraq, daqley.
Free will needs to be exercized to keep it strong.
And I am sure you will also celebrate “free will” when some of our fellow citizens decline to pay their income taxes to support all the new give-aways that the Dear Leader-elect has promised. You will probably also celebrate “free-will” the next time a pharmacist refuses to fill a prescription for the morning after pill, or when a college professor chooses to opt out of his university’s mandatory diversity and sexual harassment training sessions. Or does it only work one way with you?
JVW (f93297) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:05 pmAt the moment. L.N Smithee is technically right in not believing that Obama will prove to be a centrist. The reasonto belive that will likely have to wait until 1/21/09, when most expect to see a bipartisan cabinet; undoubtedly there will be more Republicans in the new administration than there are, or have been, Democrats in the current administration.
Denny (96b541) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:06 pmYou folks are disgustingly petty and childish. Mean-spirited and myopic. Look around you. When was the last time you saw the whole world this excited about America? Something great has happened. Pause and reflect on the good this could bring. Barack Obama is a great man. Be proud of him. Be proud to be an American.
love2008 (18ee66) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:08 pm“Dave Surls has brilliantly established the direct philosophical and spiritual link between John C. Calhoun and Barack Obama.”
True. They both seem to believe that, for the greater good, certain people ought to be subjected to involuntary servitude…themselves excluded, of course.
“Conscription is slavery.”
Duh.
Thanks for noticing that I’m brilliant, btw.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:11 pmMost of your comments are quite frightening…I mean really: the devil? uneducated? references to Hitler? I am a Christian, a Woman and African-American. I voted for Barack Obama because I believe in his vision and I have hope that as our President, and with God’s help, he will be able to lead our nation to restoration. I admire Senator McCain for the sacrifices he has made in support of our continued freedom. I believe that Governor Palin took a courageous step out on faith and now the GOP has shamelessly dishonored and nearly disowned her. But I am appalled and saddened by the absence of any acknowledgement of God in your comments moreover in the very tone of those comments. The Son of God our Lord Jesus Christ must surely be shedding tears right now, as He witnesses such hatefulness as is contained in your words.
Lorraine (f18605) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:12 pmMost of your comments are quite frightening…I mean really: the devil? uneducated? references to Hitler? I am a Christian, a Woman and African-American. I voted for Barack Obama because I believe in his vision and I have hope that as our President, and with God’s help, he will be able to lead our nation to restoration. I admire Senator McCain for the sacrifices he has made in support of our continued freedom. I believe that Governor Palin took a courageous step out on faith and now the GOP has shamelessly dishonored and nearly disowned her. But I am appalled and saddened by the absence of any acknowledgement of God in your comments moreover in the very tone of those comments. The Son of God our Lord Jesus Christ must surely be shedding tears right now, as He witnesses such hatefulness as is contained in your words.
Lorraine (f18605) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:12 pmre: Dmac
something you don’t mention, but adds to your point, is that the war has been going on long enough now that I’d wager (I don’t know for sure) that most of the guys over there volunteered AFTER the war began, meaning they joined up knowing they could go over there, and more likely, with the EXPECTATION they would see combat, and they joined with that exact intention. So instead of Bush tricking them into an “illegal war”, they were attracted to hitch up precisely because they thought it was a worthy cause and they wanted to help.
docweasel (501e56) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:12 pmBefriending a man who dedicated his Book to Sirhan Sirhan who killed RFK?? A Nice Man would have punched Ayers lights out.
Dennis D (ae900a) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:14 pmPause and reflect on the good this could bring. Barack Obama is a great man. Be proud of him. Be proud to be an American.
Love, please refer to my comment #252 at 3:35 pm. We are the ones who are always proud to be Americans, not just when we happen to like who is running the country.
JVW (f93297) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:16 pmDenny wrote:
Thanks.
I don’t have any doubt about that, because so many Pubbies are practically Dems already. Chuck Hagel, Christine Todd Whitman, Lincoln Chafee, and other squishies.
If it turns out McCain had anything approaching tacit approval of the trashing of Governor Palin, I wouldn’t be shocked to see him serve President Obama (retch) if asked. What would he have to lose if he’s already burned his bridge behind him?
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:20 pmYou don’t know anything about me or what I’ve done for this nation.
So tell us about all of the awesome and selfless things you’ve performed during your lifetime so far – it must be far more impressive than a lowly servicemen could ever hope to accomplish – right?
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:22 pmI really disagree. Pointing to campaign rhetoric is meaningless. Of course he was told by his handlers to defend attacks on the Palin Kids. His opposition to a bill to protect babies born alive during an abortion is a better measure. His actions not his campaign spin is more important.
Dennis D (ae900a) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:23 pmI admire Senator McCain for the sacrifices he has made in support of our continued freedom. I believe that Governor Palin took a courageous step out on faith and now the GOP has shamelessly dishonored and nearly disowned her.
So Lorraine, I take it you were also upset when the Obama campaign teased McCain for allegedly not being able to work a computer. I would guess too that you were deeply disappointed when Obama and Biden initially derided Palin as just a small-town mayor. And I am sure that you are bothered by the fact that Obama surrogates continued an unceasing line of attack on McCain and Palin throughout the campaign, right? Please reassure us that you aren’t just another Obama fan who believes that your man can do no wrong and that everything with him is going to be sunshine and lollipops from now on, otherwise I doubt your comments will carry much weight here.
JVW (f93297) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:23 pmDear Da Bombz Diggity (#283):
You say: “You don’t know anything about me or what I’ve done for this nation.”
Correct; but I do know, that no solider who served honorably, would EVER slur his fellow soldiers the way you have.
You present ethical question about WAR from the viewpoint of a soldier? The words you have written, the implications you have made; if you were there, then you should know – and be ashamed of yourself.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt (but you probably have no idea what I mean, do you). I feel bad for you sir.
Good luck to you Da Bombz Diggity, I hope you find your way.
Pons Asinorum (f0d1b9) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:23 pmAnd besides, Lorraine, to say the GOP has “shamelessly dishonored and nearly disowned” Governor Palin is silly. All indications are that she remains extremely popular with the conservative base of the party. If some of the Beltway elite Republicans don’t like her, well, they are a large reason that GOP losses have been mounting the last two elections. I could just as easily argue that the Democrats have “shamelessly dishonored and nearly disowned” the Clintons.
JVW (f93297) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:26 pmThe Latest on the Persecution of an American Heroine:
Palin denounces her critics as cowardly
By DAN JOLING and SHARON THEIMER, Associated Press Writers Dan Joling And Sharon Theimer, Associated Press Writers – 1 hr 36 mins ago
ANCHORAGE, Alaska – Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin called her critics cowards and jerks Friday for deriding her anonymously and insisted she never asked for the expensive wardrobe purchased for her use on the presidential campaign.
“I never asked for anything more than a Diet Dr. Pepper once in a while,” Palin said as she returned to the governor’s office from her two-month odyssey as the GOP vice presidential nominee. She said the Republican National Committee paid for the tens of thousands of dollars in designer clothes and accessories.
“Those are the RNC’s clothes. They’re not my clothes. I never forced anybody to buy anything,” she said.
Republican Party lawyers are still trying to determine exactly what clothing was purchased for Palin at such high-end stores as Saks Fifth Avenue and Neiman Marcus, what was returned and what has become of the rest.
She particularly lashed out at the anonymous Republican campaign sources cited in a Fox News report who said she did not know Africa was a continent, not a country, and could not name the three countries in the North American Free Trade Agreement — Canada, the United States and Mexico.
“I consider it cowardly” that they did not allow their names to be used, she said.
Palin said those allegations aren’t true. She recalled discussing Africa and NAFTA with aides who prepared her for the vice presidential debate with Democrat Joe Biden.
“If there are allegations based on questions or comments that I made in debate prep about NAFTA, and about the continent vs. the country when we talk about Africa there, then those were taken out of context,” she said. “That’s cruel, It’s mean-spirited. It’s immature. It’s unprofessional and those guys are jerks if they came away with it, taking things out of context and then tried to spread something on national news. It’s not fair, and it’s not right.”
Palin also said she would not call on Sen. Ted Stevens, R-Alaska, to resign, although last month, before his re-election bid, she said he should “step aside” and “play a very statesmanlike role in this now.” Stevens, 84, was found guilty on seven counts of trying to hide more than $250,000 in free home renovations and other gifts that he received from a wealthy oil contractor.
Three days after the election, Stevens, the longest serving Republican in Senate history, is about 3,500 votes ahead of Democratic challenger Mark Begich with thousands of absentee ballots to be counted in the next two weeks.
Said Palin on Friday: “The Alaska voters have spoken and me not be a dictator, won’t be telling anyone what to do.”
When asked if she would call on him to resign, Palin said: “Not after the will of the people has been made manifest via that vote.”
Meanwhile, RNC lawyers are discussing with Palin whether what’s left of the clothing and accessories purchased for her on the campaign trail will go to charity, back to stores or be paid for by Palin, a McCain-Palin campaign official said Friday, speaking on condition of anonymity because the campaign hadn’t authorized comment.
The sorting should be completed in the next four or five days, the campaign official said, declining to say whether the RNC was sending anyone to Alaska to help take inventory.
The RNC spent at least $150,000 on designer clothing, accessories and beauty services for Palin after she became John McCain’s running mate in September. The spending included $75,062 at Neiman Marcus in Minneapolis; $49,425 at Saks Fifth Avenue; $9,447 at Macy’s; and $789 at the luxury retailer Barneys New York. Some of the purchases were for Palin family members, such as $4,902 spent at upscale men’s clothier Atelier and $92 at Pacifier, a Minneapolis baby boutique.
The McCain-Palin campaign said about a third of the clothing was returned immediately because it was the wrong size, or for other reasons. However, other purchases were apparently made after that, the campaign official said.
The spending drew a complaint against Palin and the RNC by a Washington government watchdog group. Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission accusing Palin and the GOP of violating a federal ban on the use of campaign funds for personal expenses such as clothing.
The RNC didn’t respond to repeated requests by The Associated Press for comment Friday.
It’s routine for candidates to get professional hair and makeup services at campaign expense before they go on camera, but Palin’s shopping spree at GOP donors’ expense is unusual. It contrasted with the down-to-earth “hockey mom” image that Palin sought to craft and gave the campaign unwanted publicity in the form of newspaper headlines, Internet chatter and comedians’ jokes.
FEC spokesman Bob Biersack declined to comment on the spending beyond confirming that the commission has received CREW’s complaint.
___
N. N. (d63e61) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:27 pmPalin was right when she said some parts of America are more Patriotic. Where do you find opposition to Military Recruiting offices or ROTC? Where do you find protesters stomping on the FLAG? Where do you usually find a ” Sanctuary” City that protects the invaders?
Dennis D (ae900a) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:28 pmYes, JVW, you could argue that point and it is well taken. That is part of the beauty of being Americans, we can disagree and argue and even dislike each other. I believe God allows us to do so because we are human, imperfect, ever-searching for what is right and ever- questioning that with which we disagree or do not understand. Thank you for your response.
Lorraine (f18605) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:33 pmSarah Palin’s statements about Ted Stevens tell us a lot about her character and leadership.
eyeball (c9fca3) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:36 pmhe will be able to lead our nation to restoration
A sure sign of the Obama cultist – the declarative statement that our country is somehow “damaged” and needs a Messiah to lead us to redemption.
I’m sorry to tell you this, but millions of your fellow citizens don’t think there’s anything that need to be “restored” in our country, unless you’re talking about arrogant demagogues who deign to lecture to their imagined “lessors” about morality. So please consider yourself a prime reclamation case.
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:36 pmThe Son of God our Lord Jesus Christ must surely be shedding tears right now, as He witnesses such hatefulness as is contained in your words.
Sounds like another Elmer Gantry in the making – take your bad Carny act somewhere else, please.
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:39 pmlove2008 wrote:
So … freakin’… what?
There were millions of people who voted, but only the votes of Americans count. I’m an American. I liked Tony Blair, but Brits thought less of him than I did. I love Nick Sarkozy, who loves America, and gave a speech before a joint session of Congress that was as patriotic as any given by an American President. But if he is replaced by another Chirac or Mitterand, oh well. It ain’t MY country.
The whole world was excited about the marriage of Prince Charles and Diana Spencer, too. Turns out the excitement from without didn’t translate to within, or else they would still be married and she would still be alive.
Ehhhhh, shaddup! Stop putting his face on Mount Rushmore before he takes the oath of office!
BTW … when he takes the oath, will he use his middle name? Or is that bit of cowardice over, finally?
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:39 pmObama’s reference to Justice Thomas were odious and vile, playing into the authentically black meme.
But remember, folks, Obama Derangement Syndrome is ODiouS.
Fritz (81d848) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:39 pmA good man would not turn off the address verification system AVS for his campaign contributions made by credit card. A good man would not tolerate someone on his staff doing such a thing.
A good man would not tolerate his audience breaking out in laughter when he accidentally scratched his face with his middle finger for Hilary Clinton and John McCain.
Except, I don’t believe it was accidental the first time and absolutely was not the second time.
A good man would not believe in socialism that has impoverished entire continents.
snookered (c64d75) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:39 pmLorraine – Were you expecting to find references to God in every comment here because this is a conservative blog? Do you really believe in that stereotype?
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:41 pm“The Son of God our Lord Jesus Christ must surely be shedding tears right now, as He witnesses such hatefulness as is contained in your words.”
Just out of curiosity, how do you think Jesus feels about Obama’s oft expressed desire to kill Osama Bin Laden?
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:43 pmLorraine wrote: I voted for Barack Obama because I believe in his vision and I have hope that as our President, and with God’s help, he will be able to lead our nation to restoration.
Restoration … to what?
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:45 pmI’d rather ask the Carny what Jesus would think about others who deign to speak in his name. Does she have a hotline as well? Batphone?
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:48 pmVoices in her head? Tarot Cards? Blackberry number?
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:51 pmNo, daleyrocks, no stereotype intended. I believe that God is in all places at all times despite the labels we attach to ourselves.
And to Dave Surls, as humans we are all filled with sin. Killing and/or desiring to kill is wrong. None of us are exempt from God’s law.
Lorraine (f18605) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:52 pmI don’t find it attractive to claim God’s name for a particular political party. “Gott mit Uns” implies that you know how he’d act in your special case so much so that he should act that way in all cases.
Do you really want to bring God into this? What happens when Bambi fails? Will God fail, too?
steve miller (bc2192) — 11/7/2008 @ 5:56 pmComment by Lorraine — 11/7/2008 @ 5:52 pm
Don’t feed the trolls, Lorraine. Some of these commenters are godless conservatives.
love2008 (18ee66) — 11/7/2008 @ 6:00 pmGood night everyone. Gotta check my blackberry!
Lorraine (f18605) — 11/7/2008 @ 6:05 pmI missed you guys too. daleyrocks, the Dana’s, all the good guys…who I already KNOW are “good”! …wish I had a better solution.
Comment by cfbleachers — 11/7/2008 @ 8:57 am
Now that is just a really fine thing to come home to after a long week…and remember, I’m the Younger Dana. 🙂
Because I have such a great respect for the office of the presidency, I will gladly give the due respect to Mr. Obama who will soon be holding that esteemed position.
I don’t know what is in the heart of Mr. Obama and whether or not he’s good or bad, or decent or evil. Few people in life are what they appear to be and peering into the heart is a matter for God. But I also know that partial birth abortion is inhumane and I personally cannot comprehend the embracing of this and the willful working to ensure the freedom to continue the barbaric practice. The disconnect between it and being a decent or good man is too great for me.
With that, I am quietly reminded that I too have spent time in the wilderness fallen from grace so I recognize there but for the grace of God go I. I’ll humbly pray for my new president while hoping that he turn toward the reverence and recognition of the intrinsic value of all life, whether inside or outside of the womb.
Dana (79a78b) — 11/7/2008 @ 6:06 pmTake it outside, Bobo – you’re in way over your head on this one. We all practice (or non – practice) our own religion (beliefs), but no one attempts to force those tenets on others. That is why our country enacted laws, not religious doctrine. If you honestly feel differently, then you really are a fascist by any other name – go join the other religious brownshirt here in the corner.
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 6:07 pmBTW, that comment wasn’t directed at you, Dana.
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 6:08 pmOh heck, Dmac, we’ve known each other too long for me to ever think you would address me by such a tacky name!
Dana (79a78b) — 11/7/2008 @ 6:14 pmPeter @ 159 is a perfect example of the Leftist everyone references in re. the lack of civility, perpetual whining, and overall asshatiness. He is still bitching about 2000, yet the other trolls have the temerity to come by and tell everyone to quit whining about an election that does not yet its final vote tally.
Never ever trust someone who buggers goats.
Sorry, Da Bombz. I did not have time to compose a substantive response, earlier, and every conversation about race with trollz endz up beginning and ending the the troll calling everyone that disagrees with them racists. I was just trying to save you time.
JD (831256) — 11/7/2008 @ 6:24 pmAnd I am sure you will also celebrate “free will” when some of our fellow citizens decline to pay their income taxes to support all the new give-aways that the Dear Leader-elect has promised.
Not a problem, JVW.
With Obama in charge of the new NSA unleashed from the Constitution by the Republicans, tracking down those unpatriotic Americans who refuse to offer up their paychecks for transfer to those in need will be easy to track down.
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 6:35 pmIs L.N. related to Barcky?
See, Diggity was trying to be all reasonable earlier, and I was about to give it the benefit of the doubt. Then it spews out a geyser of BDS, laced with a fundamental lack of understanding of our all volunteer military.
Character is something that Leftist laugh about at dinner parties. It is the punchline to jokes.
Funny, nothing in this thread seems to be about religion. Except for Baracky’s church where he listened to God Damn American and the US KKK of America.
I misjudged Diggity. It was not angling to call us racists. It was angling to call us Nazis.
This is one of the more profoundly stupid and vapid comments I can recall reading.
I forgot. The military is a bunch of liars. That damn Gen. Betray Us is lying again.
Aren’t we borrowing the money for the Iraq war? So, Barcky is just going to keep borrowing, and just spend it on other things?
I do not want to live in your world, and I suspect that the umbrella of security that we provide to the better part of the planet would not be so fond of your ideas either.
JD (831256) — 11/7/2008 @ 6:45 pmPons @ #280 hit the proverbial nail on the head.
I am going to denounce myself, just in case.
Socrates just puked all over himself.
Socrates just called, and asked that you quit taking his name in vain. No BDS here. All facts. Socratic investigation.
JD (831256) — 11/7/2008 @ 6:49 pmSince when did the right care what the rest of the world thinks, JD?
Let them pay for their own defense, we’re broke.
And if their militaries begin to rival ours, who cares.
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 6:50 pm#349 snuffles,
Either that or have the media to cover and lie for our religious zealots. Worked for you guys.
Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/7/2008 @ 6:51 pm@ 3:32 pm ^
Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/7/2008 @ 6:52 pm“You and Bush seem to be enthusiastic about sending troops into an unjustified war in Iraq…”
Yeah, except the war is totally justified.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 6:57 pm^Didn’t know a damn thing about the man or the plan. Just another brotha’ vote.
L.N. has enough brains to know his kids will be picking up the tab for the unfundable programs well into their senior years.
Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/7/2008 @ 6:57 pmHow does your head not explode?
Lorraine – Kudos on your faith. If God is keeping score, you and your Dems best be worried after the last 8 years of venom.
JD (831256) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:00 pmRacist
😉
JD (831256) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:00 pmI forgot LN Smithee in my kudos and I love ALL the dana’s here…especially the pretty one.
Look, I will continue to opine on ideological issues as I always have.
But, I am dead set against mirroring the imbeciles against whom I have sent spirited ridicule for 8 years.
Although I am a centrist and I have a soft spot for traditional liberals like Jeff at Protein Wisdom (I think he’s brilliant, btw), I DESPISE leftists, have an even stronger distaste for the entrenched media and I think the world of Pat Frey.
So, I’m not going anywhere. But, I believe that my friends here know me well enough..if I think the best moral high ground is to attack ideology and not a “persona”, there is a good reason for it.
It weakens the argument to emulate the imbeciles. Daleyrocks, JD, Smithee, the Dana’s know this…let’s forge a new path of our own. Let’s take the moral high ground and not relent on it.
There are good and brilliant folks here….let’s pull on the same end of the rope.
cfbleachers (1f4df1) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:03 pm“Either that or have the media to cover and lie for our religious zealots. Worked for you guys.”
VN – It has worked for the left. It’s not called socialism or communism broadly here yet, but it’s still the opiate of the asses.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:03 pm“without adequate armor”
Best equipped army in the world.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:03 pmSo the Leftist now wants to go all unilateral cowboy isolationist on us.
JD (831256) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:05 pmcfbleachers – Can I still whack trollz?
JD (831256) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:06 pmcfbleachers – Which Dana is the pretty one?
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:07 pmJD,
Bringing our troops home from countries perfectly cabable of defending themselves isn’t “isolationist.”
It’s just common sense.
Better our tax money goes to Americans instead of Germans, Koreans, Iraqis, etc.
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:09 pmDave at 6:57,
These asses sit at their computers safe since 9/11 with no attacks on home turf, and the freedom to be Cindy Sheehan or Michal Moore or whatever wingnut they admire most. They don’t care that Bubbles deactivated the address verification system for fraud donations (and as “head of a Presidential campaign!” said Mr. Executive himself). Acorn? Automatic, anything to inflate the polls. And Barry still hasn’t met a camera he doesn’t like. Could end up being bigger than Howie Mandel. But right now, my money’s on Soros. : )
(Lovey didn’t vote blue or red if you get my drift, and I think you do.)
Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:10 pmJD – DaBombz is also a Trig Truther. Hard to believe, isn’t it?
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:11 pmsnuffles, we have troops in Germany and Korea for reasons other than “defending” them. Especially in Korea as the South Korean army has been capable of defeating North Korea by themselves for at least three decades.
SPQR (26be8b) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:12 pmI was glad to find someone trying to find some good in Obama. There wasn’t a lot there, and it needed to be backed up with actions, but it was still nice.
Also, I find the whole discussion in the comment section absolutely fascinating. There are so many diverse opinions. It’s enlightening.
For myself, I will give Obama a chance to set this country on its feet again. From what he says he wants to do, it isn’t likely…but if he were to ever try it, his corrupt politician skills would guarantee it would happen. 🙂 He could promise everyone whatever they wanted. He could make them believe they will actually get it while he did some good. Sadly, he doesn’t seem to be using his “talents” for good.
And I still haven’t decided whether Obama is actually a decent, misguided fellow or a evil man…or something else entirely. Still we shall see….
Sunshine (101f45) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:12 pm“And Barry still hasn’t met a camera he doesn’t like.”
VN – The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers likes cameras and microphones with which to give empty but lofty aspirational speeches but he sure as hell hates answering pesky questions.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:15 pmdaleyrocks,
I see religion becoming essential and downright fundamental in the months ahead. Rev. Wrighty represents a results-oriented faith!
I do fear the future of Jesse Jackson now. Is there one person in this country being discriminated against who isn’t white? Make way for the lower scores and minority hires. Learn to love the logic.
Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:18 pmhe sure as hell hates answering pesky questions.
Sure he does, daley.
That’s why he held a press conference today.
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:21 pmMore likely his middle finger. Place your bets now, folks.
Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:23 pmbut it’s still the opiate of the asses.
Heh.
Bringing our troops home from countries perfectly cabable of defending themselves isn’t “isolationist.”
Can’t wait to hear from General Snuffy exactly how Europe can defend themselves from aggressors, since their military capabilities approach most 3rd World countries at this point. Snuffy, can you spell G – E – O – R – G – I – A? Goodness, your educational level is really a fright.
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:28 pmWho is going to attack Europe that’s a credible threat to them, Dmac?
Us?
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:30 pmsnuffles, do pay attention to some history. The aggressiveness of the Russian empire over the centuries is well documented.
SPQR (26be8b) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:36 pmdaleyrocks,
Barry will get through his press briefings with the usual smoke and mirrors. Questions will become a silly relic from previous administrations. Remember, this guy said he wants to be working with world leaders “8-10 years” from now.
God, I wanted that fake podium of his. I want that more than Spike Lee wants a motel room on Coronation day. I would at least like a 6-foot cutout of Barry to prop up around the house. Maybe bring him along in the passenger seat so wherever I go peace and unity are with me. He is the post-racial candidate, you know.
Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:36 pmsniffles gets less and less lucid as the evening progresses.
JD (831256) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:40 pmSPQR,
Russia can defeat Europe just by shutting its pipelines for a few months.
The same way Hugo Chavez can bring America down whenever he wants.
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:41 pmdaleyrocks – I do not believe you when you tell me the Mad Bomber is a Trig Twoofer. How could someone that is interested in Socratic investigation be a twoofer?
JD (831256) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:41 pmIt really is not all that bright.
JD (831256) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:42 pmBut I guess we should feel fortunate that Chavez and Baracky are so closely ideologically aligned, and are both not friends with Bill Ayers.
JD (831256) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:43 pmWow. Ignorant much.
Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:43 pmWho is going to attack Europe that’s a credible threat to them, Dmac?
The fact that you had to ask this question tells us all we need to know about your knowledge of world history – as if we already didn’t have a general idea previously.
Just for starters, you could look up the recent Russian threat to cut off the main gas pipeline to Ukraine last winter, and of course the recent war in Georgia. Russian gangs of electronic thieves (funded by the KGB) have been playing havoc with western intelligence and financial systems for the better part of the past decade – and you could ask the good folks in Estonia what happened to their internet services last Summer (they had no access in their entire country for almost a week).
You do understand that countries like Ukraine, Estonia and Georgia are part of Eastern Europe, don’t you, Snuffles?
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:47 pmSnuffles, you do realize that cutting off another nation’s vital energy supplies is considered to be an act of war, don’t you?
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:50 pmVermont,
America has bankrupted itself amassing the most powerful military in the world, and what do we have to show for it?
It can’t even hold on to a couple of third world provinces for us.
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:50 pmEr, not sure he is a “decent guy” per se but not sure he ain’t. So I agree with most that actions speak loader than words.
To me, just seems he has been more interested in his career than in doing the right thing — as so many of us have done day-in, day-out in order to get ahead and along. As my mother alwasy said — “You wanna get ahead you got to be a bit of a hypocrite.”
No question in my mind his Chicago South Side “frems” are nothing more than trash in the highway now. I just hope his Hugo Chavez rhetoric proves just gasoline to get his car across the finish line. HOPE!
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:50 pmSnuffles,
You are a buffoon. I can’t believe you even wrote that.
Frequently wrong, never in doubt!
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:51 pmsnuffles, our military spending did not bankrupt us. It is quite dwarfed by our welfare spending.
SPQR (26be8b) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:52 pmIt doesn’t even realize when it’s beclowning fast descends into complete jackassery.
Dmac (e30284) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:54 pmAmerican military spending is about 4 times larger than welfare spending, SPQR.
Chop chop.
snuffles (677ec2) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:54 pmRussia can also starve to death b/c once it shuts off Europe every drop of capital will flea that country.
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:55 pmFeds should be spending on Military. Welfare not so much. So the argument is a false strawman used to justify Welfare Queens and their weekly hair salon visits.
But hey, spreading the wealth to those lovely Korean girls who get dare shit done then hope into their Benzos and drive home ……
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:57 pmsnuffles, you are using too narrow a definition of “welfare”.
SPQR (26be8b) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:58 pmProblem with Europe right now is the warrior class is dead. Most males age 18 – 55 are obsessed with porn, gambling and soccer. 2 Muzlims with a machine gun could over-run Munich.
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:58 pmHope is hoop … sorry, my ghetto is off today.
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/7/2008 @ 7:59 pmhop…damn
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:01 pmsniffles appears to have gotten pissed that I awarded the Mad Bomber the award for The Most Brain-Poundingly Stooopid Comment of the Thread.
JD (831256) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:10 pmJD, the awards committee may need to consider late entrants.
SPQR (26be8b) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:11 pmSPQR – It is going to take a lot of work to catch up with the Mad Bomber and sniffles. lovie is being granted a Lifetime Achievement Award for General Mendoucheousness.
JD (831256) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:13 pmWell, my mother always told me if I open my mouth to speak make sure it is relevant. I have read many of the comments left here and it is a sad truth as with much that I have read these past few days. Many of you pass judgement on a man you know little about and honestly even if you did it would not have mattered. You criticize him for his affiliations when many of you probably on more then one occasion has probably spewed the N word or know someone that has, and I am sure you still associate with them, but we dare not air our own dirty laundry. Does it make you a racist or just ignorant? I will let you decide. You voted for the current president not once but twice. What I have seen in the past 8 years has saddened me. Whether Mccain or Obama would have one it would have been an uphill battle to correct the many wrongs. You spend all of your energy trying your hardest to dig up something on Obama, look in the mirror! I am young and black the reason we see Obama as a sign of change is that we need some sort of hope to hold on to. The idealism of America is what makes us the envy of other nations. They look to us for that hope they do not have. They have looked at us with pity here lately. I love my country but it hurts my heart to know that so many of you, in your set in ways refuse to see anything other then what you know or what you are accustomed to. Quit trying to dig up something and let his actions speak louder then his words. Look for something you can do to uplift this pisspoor economy, this lackluster morale of the majority of – get the stick out of your asses and do something that makes a difference.
JustMe (1982f4) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:14 pmJustMe, that’s really a rather pathetic little whine. This vague “sign of change” that you see in Obama is the most ludicrous fantasy. Obama has never “changed” anything but his own past.
His actions can’t speak louder than his words, because in his entire political career he has offered nothing but empty words. And Obama has no idea how to “uplift’ our economy because what has caused our current problems are the very policies he or other Democrats have supported in the past. Did you not notice that one of the people who drove Fannie Mae into insolvency was running Obama’s VP selection committee?
SPQR (26be8b) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:18 pmHave we made enough fun of Patterico’s “Gee, I think the guy is swell” post? Have we explained to him enough that good intentions without intelligent and informed thought can and always do cause massive damage?
Pat, seriously. I’m starting to despise your hippie ways. Just a head’s up. If you name your next kid Pear, or Soy Burger, or something like that, you’re as dead to me as Charles Johnson of lgf.
Kevin (5ac156) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:23 pmSay what you will I realy am not whining I am stating the facts. Fact is the economy is crap, my 401k looks like my daughter’s piggy bank, and something has to give. Any suggestions? Talk is CHEAP! All I am saying is what we have gotten in the past 8 years is GARBAGE. I am an optomist (sorry for being me) I have to believe that change is coming otherwise where there is no vision the people will perish.
JustMe (1982f4) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:23 pmJustMe, Bwaaaaaaaa, good try but mediocrity must go…….
If we know nothing of this man then you tell me how he got elected when we knew lots of his opponent. It also tells you lots when Liberahl Hilaree was thrown over board too.
How’d dat happin? Didn’t see anyone saying how “sad” it was.
With respect to the N word — hear it all the time. I hear black kids referring to their friends, their wives, their kids. I hear it on rap videos. Hell my boyz have even referred to me in those terms ….. so forgive me if I use the word too in EXACTLY the same context black people. Saying the word means nothing. ZERO.
No guilt for me — my family didn’t do the nasty with slaves. I (AND MANY LIKE US) have nothing to do with the collective white (irrational) guilt that blacks loveeeeeeee to heap on when they want something as an aggrieved class.
Give him a chance? Sure, what choice but this was never in option in 2000 and 2004 so frankly GFY. When I hear something I like from Oh Great One that No One Knows Anything About maybe I (AND OTHERS LIKE ME) will give him a chance.
Till then what goes around comes around bitches.
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:29 pmTalk is cheap? Then why vote for Obama? That’s all he’s ever offered. Vapid “change” rhetoric devoid of substance.
Your 401K is suffering because many years of bad policy like Clinton’s rewrite of CRA regulations, crooked Democrat management of Fannie Mae, etc. are coming to roost now.
SPQR (26be8b) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:30 pmJustMe
Suggestions — dump cable, dump broadband, get rid of the second and third car, don’t get the flat screen, stop eating out so often, learn to cook, stop shopping at the mall weakly … that is my advice in this economy to all the winners complaining about it.
Check goes along way when you stop pissing it away on things you don’t need.
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:31 pm_________________________________
I’ve had some people demanding evidence — any evidence — that Obama is a decent or good man.
It would have helped if such specificity had been offered from the beginning. And I do give Obama thumbs up for saying it as it is regarding all the dysfunction that’s been roiling black America for decades. However, Bill Clinton had a similar moment during his campaign….
…and I guess you or others could have pointed this out as a sign that Bill Clinton was a “decent” or “good” man.
Well, so much for assuming that a few comments made by a politician in a public forum necessarily are a window into his (or her) decency and goodness.
And just so you know that my standards aren’t swayed by philosophy and politics alone, I didn’t start to feel more confident about judging Ronald Reagan’s character quite highly (and the decency and goodness of the man thereof) until published accounts of his personal writings finally were released to the public over the past few years.
So until well after Reagan had left the White House, I felt it was appropriate to limit my kudos to him for his ideology and so-called charisma/charm alone. However — and even though there never was publicity about him (other than his being the first divorced president) that cast him in a bad light and gave me pause — I wasn’t willing to judge him beyond his public life. Why? Because I didn’t know him personally. I couldn’t observe him from the standpoint of a friend or relative, etc.
So why any stranger (and most people are strangers to one another) would feel confident in critiquing Barack Obama so positively at this early moment is puzzling to me. Even more so since it would be quite an understatement to say that Obama enters the White House with almost no excess baggage.
Mark (411533) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:31 pm_________________________________
Talk is cheap, Just me, but apparently so is your 401K! But don’t lie to us and say you are an optimist. You’re going to complain no matter what happens. It’s what Democrats do. When, 4ish years from now, once obama has finished reaming us, and your 401k flourishes, you’ll start whining about something else, like ‘oh, my cheeseburger that I just ordered didn’t have enough cheese on it’ or some other crap.
Stop whining. You’ll enjoy your life better, just me.
Kevin (5ac156) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:33 pm“Say what you will I realy[sic] am not whining I am stating the facts.”
No, you are doing both!
Kevin (5ac156) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:36 pmOT: Is Chris Mathews actively campaining for the Press Secretary job or he he just as much a sleaze bag as I imagined him?
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:36 pm“They have looked at us with pity here lately. I love my country but it hurts my heart to know that so many of you, in your set in ways refuse to see anything other then what you know or what you are accustomed to.”
Justme – They are not looking at us with pity. It is still resentment and envy for being the greatest country in the world. Don’t let the stupid leftist propaganda fool you. People all over the world still want to move to the United States.
You admit you are young but castigate those here you view as set in their ways. Perhaps some of us are not as enthusiastic about politicians like Obama because we have seen snake oil salesmen like him before. We didn’t buy their products before, saw them fail when the nation tried them, and have absolutely every conviction that they will fail again when Obama tries them.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:37 pmHere is a fact.
Is there a country on earth where minorities live as well as the US?
Would be nice to hear some of my own STFU about George Bush and say thank god for once.
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:40 pm“Have we made enough fun of Patterico’s “Gee, I think the guy is swell” post?”
Kevin – Who is “We” shithead? Did you just drop by to take a dump on his carpet or are you naturally an asshole to blog hosts?
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:40 pmDear White Protestants, thank you for building this country and guiding it to greatness. I am so grateful you let my shitty stained family come because the crappers “we came from” gave us nothing but heart ache, war and poverty.
Dear George Bush I don’t agree with much but thank you for keeping me and my family secure since 9-11. Thank you.
Can we start there? I mean, those are facts.
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:43 pmHmmmm.
@ love2008
“Now that is going very far. You can respectfully disagree with our host without the insults. You, my dear are sick. You are also one of the reasons why the Repcan party is in this mess. You are unAmerican. And you will most surely be banned. Idoit!”
1. I can damn well disagree in any fashion I care to.
2. I am most certainly not but perhaps you are. There are plenty of Republicans who treat politics as if it were a polite game of shuffleboard. It isn’t. This is about the future of the country and dealing with people who want to destroy it so that they can fashion it all over again into a new form just for them.
3. I don’t give a fuck if I’m banned because my opinion of Patterico is frankly beyond repair.
Every single time the Democrats attack Republicans we have fellow Republicans either helping them or excusing them.
Like I said before: Patterico can go fuck himself.
4. Spell check. Try it.
memomachine (6ab657) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:44 pm“he sure as hell hates answering pesky questions.
Sure he does, daley.
That’s why he held a press conference today.”
Whiffles – That was the first press conference in something like eight weeks, right? What PESKY questions did he get, honey? I heard a lot of the usual softball stuff, pets, etc.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:45 pmRepublicans problem is they are constantly apologizing for what they believe in. It is like the abused wife who says “I know, I know but I deserved it.”
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:47 pm“The same way Hugo Chavez can bring America down whenever he wants.”
We have a nice room ready for him, right next to Manuel Noriega’s.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:48 pm“Pat, seriously. I’m starting to despise your hippie ways.”
Man, you would really hate me. Still have hair halfway down my back, still wear tie-dye, still listen to the Grateful Dead.
Once a hippie, always a hippie.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:51 pm“Kevin – Who is “We” shithead?”
I have no idea who “‘We’ shithead” is. A quick study of you and your friends might solve this question, though. Or, if you meant something different, an accurately place comma could have made you look less unintelligent.
Regardless, to answer your question, yes, I am normally an asshole on blog posts where conservatives make asses out of themselves. This just happens to be one of those. Patterico is embarrassing himself by mentioning that Obama isn’t evil on purpose. Who cares why he supports evil policies? On purpose, on accident, who cares! He supports some bad shit.
I shall now take a dump on Daleyrocks’ carpet so he can continue to think he read me correctly. Good job, Daley.
Kevin (5ac156) — 11/7/2008 @ 8:55 pm#404: So you are a REAL American, right? All tough and rough and ready! Speaking Troof to Powder….
So why don’t you you save Mr. Frey the trouble of banning you loutish self? Hie your backside elsewhere—and here is the key—get yourself a nice toxic blog of your own where you can swear and insult and battle with trolls like yourself.
You know, one that you pay for, and have to actually do work to keep up. Instead of just crapping on someone else’s rug.
Disagree with Patterico or not. That’s fine. But the crudeness and faux tough guy act? Most of us have seen that act before, from trolls using different names. Maybe even you under a different name.
Because I don’t believe a word of what you have been writing. It’s just more trollery.
A person who genuinely thought the way you claim would simply go elsewhere—and have their own blog. With the kind of traffic Patterico has.
So go show the superiority and purity of your own point of view, rather than sitting back in your underwear on a bad couch with Cheetoh crumbs all over your unshaven cheeks, drinking plain wrap beer and trying to act all superior.
Eric Blair (a723e0) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:01 pmDave Surls said:
“Man, you would really hate me. Still have hair halfway down my back, still wear tie-dye, still listen to the Grateful Dead.”
Heh. No hate at all. You’ll grow up soon. It happened to all of us. You’ll be better for it. It’s all good. ‘Cept for the scarlet begonias. They kinda suck in the hair or on the ground. Bad song. Seriously.
Kevin (5ac156) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:03 pmPatterico is making it hard for me to stick with my “Obama is the devil” position.
papertiger (894e4f) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:04 pmI’ll soldier on, but it’s tough going.
He ain’t the devil but he deserves no quota from the Conservative movement. If that boy dumps red — I wanna know about it.
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:07 pmCheer up, Patterico could be right. Maybe it IS just a shower.
Person of Choler (07206f) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:14 pm“You’ll grow up soon.”
I’m 55 years old. Ain’t going to happen.
😉
“‘Cept for the scarlet begonias. They kinda suck in the hair or on the ground. Bad song. Seriously.”
Yeah, but Dark Star and China Cat Sunflower still rule.
Dave Surls (2236a4) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:26 pm– (#388) JD, you hit that one right on the head (lol).
Pons Asinorum (f0d1b9) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:38 pmI have no idea who “‘We’ shithead” is.
Kevin – Are you now claiming to be an intellectual shithead or a fucking grammar Nazi or some other piece of useless internet trash? If you are going to abuse the blog’s host, why don’t you have the balls to speak for yourself instead of some undefined mysterious “WE” that you have trouble understanding.
A fuckstick like yourself sounds just like the unhinged moonbats from Racistdogfakes or Kos, who can’t disagree with anyone without verbal abuse. You can’t just disagree with Patterico’s post, you have to make fun of it. Blow me ’til I burst.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/7/2008 @ 9:58 pmDecency? He’s provided a bogus ‘short form’ Birth Certificate, obviously a something any Senator could influence a state/local agency to generate with a quick call. He refuses to settle the matter by making the original typewritten one available (if one exists at all). If you’re not aware, the issue is in Justice Souter’s hands presently. Case# No. 08-570… Next ruling due 12/01.
We need to know if we have a complete sociopath here, willing to lie about his identity & knowingly create a scenario prompting a 2nd Civil War.
Wisdom, not intellect tells most anyone, that a guy that came from Marxist parents, identifies and associates with domestic terrorists, belongs to a America/White hating church for 20 years, and has a wife that’s never been proud of America before nominating her husband… suggests he might be something more than a liberal. Listen to the 2nd another part of the WBEZ interview (YouTube), where he suggests post-war America is comparable to Nazi Germany.
I suspect Obama’s version Clinton’s inauguration speech line will be “There is nothing right with America, that can fix what’s wrong with America”.
It appears we have an America “Hater” elect.
Patrick Henry (35cc20) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:22 pmB.O. sez F-U to 56 million Americans.
Patrick Henry (35cc20) — 11/7/2008 @ 10:28 pmObama gave the finger in front of the world to Hillary Clinton and then John McCain. This is a thug, a punk.
J Rosen (4c0e60) — 11/7/2008 @ 11:23 pmcfbleachers – Can I still whack trollz?
Comment by JD — 11/7/2008 @ 7:06 pm
I am counting on it, JD. I just don’t do it (that one guy got me to lose my cool once, maybe twice…then I felt compelled to apologize to everyone. I don’t like feeding the trolls, and one of my law professors used to preach not to fill empty vessels…but, I have to admit to having to suppress a laugh (hopefully, with no recently sipped liquid also needing suppression, it gets messy on the keyboard and I can’t read the monitor on occasion) after a brilliantly delivered punch (line).
SwashTrolling? Trollbuckling? Whatever it is, is more a spectator sport for me. I don’t go in much for bullfighting, but I appreciate the talent of the picadors. I just don’t like seeing my guys get gored though.
cfbleachers – Which Dana is the pretty one?
Comment by daleyrocks — 11/7/2008 @ 7:07 pm
I’m sure they are both (all) quite handsome and comely. I don’t know, I can’t tell them apart…I think they do this in order to keep my synapses firing, out of kindness and respect for anyone born in the Eisenhower administration.
cfbleachers (1f4df1) — 11/8/2008 @ 3:24 amOT: Is Chris Mathews actively campaining for the Press Secretary job or he he just as much a sleaze bag as I imagined him?
Comment by Robert Rodriguez — 11/7/2008 @ 8:36 pm
Robert, I don’t know how you imagined him, but if it was on his knees, with one rubber pant leg, wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt and humming Orleans pop hit “Still THE ONE”…then I must ask you this…
are your two choices above…mutually exclusive?
cfbleachers (1f4df1) — 11/8/2008 @ 3:29 amChrissie I squat to pee Matthews has indicated his wish to be the junior Senator from Pennsylvania. As such, perhaps he could be the veep candidate the next time around, replacing Biden. In any case, what with the millions Chrissie earns as a fawning talking head, he should be able to lobby for whatever job he desires that brings him closer to the man who provides tumescence to him. Looks like the assclown Stuart Smiley may yet pull out the Minn. Senate race victory since his pals keep pulling out more 100 vote additions to the totals. Shades of King Co. Say it ain’t so. And no one will do diddly squat about it. Chrissie as pompous senator could not be all that much different than Rino Specter.
Or perhaps he could write more speeches in the mode of his long ago Carter malaise paen. Regardless, Obama can say Bush made things what they are now and totally ignore the roles he and his libard buddies in Congess played. If a tomato picker in Ca. earning $14k a year qualifies for $720k home loan, what about a $2 mil loan for me? Should I pull an Al Jolson and apply blackface so the big Null pays my bills with your tax money?
madmax333 (0c6cfc) — 11/8/2008 @ 3:53 amJD, that should have read:
“during the Eisenhower administration”
I wouldn’t want anyone suggesting that Mamie had a baby that wasn’t hers. Not to bring up Andrew and his latest obsession.
While I’m on a point (or completely off it, I suppose), this whole nonsense on not knowing Africa is a continent…I have a theory on how this comes up…and then gets twisted.
A while back, a friend of mine who teaches (and, he tells me…unteaches the indoctrination that kids get from 95% of his colleagues)a class in modern American culture…told me.
Part of the discussion revolved around respect for cultural differences, but still being able to identify and discuss them.
He goes through how, when people were coming over from across the pond…in droves, their names were changed because of language difficulties and perhaps a little impatience and a smattering of indifference and occasionally a little “ill will”.
Irish, Italians, Polish…formed into groups and neighborhoods and called themselves, as they assimilated, when asked (especially the 2nd generation) Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, etc.
They did not identify with Europe, that’s a continent. They identified with country. A flag. A homeland…that was now “back in the old country”.
Jewish people came in droves…after being tormented, tortured and murdered for their religion. Israel was either too ancient or too new depending upon the year of arrival to claim as the “old country” of origin. So they identified as a religion, having no country to attach as an “identifier”.
The “bond” is in the fact that there are only 16 million in the world, and that the groups that contain billions of members still find a way to be intimidated and tremble at the mention of their existence. The fact that they now have a country to call home, seems to only implant in those who live there, for identity purposes. (for support purposes, entirely different kettle of fish)
Support of Israel is the seminal test of whether a person has a conscience, in my opinion, but for Jews it has an extra meaning, or should.
Now we come to those individuals who 50 years ago who in polite society, were called (and self-identified as) negroes, 40 years ago called and self-identified as “blacks” and chose to self-identify and are currently called African-Americans.
In the cultural study class, the question is rhetorical and a thought exercise. “Where is the country called “Africa”?
It is not meant to demean, quite the opposite. It is used to teach people how to respect the how and why cultures self-identify.
Because the lineage of ancestry or “homeland” was lost during slavery…many blacks who did not take the time, effort or money to find their “Roots”…simply couldn’t claim a country, but they knew which continent they came from.
Of course, Egypt is in Africa and no Egyptian would self-identify as African-American unless he was being …ironically…disingenuous.
South Africans have a similar issue.
If someone asks “which country is Africa” in relation to Senator Obama, I suspect the point is…he did not descend from slaves, but closer to seats of power. He knows, and always knew that his heritage was Kenyan, Luo to be precise. He did not suffer the loss of attachment via slavery…to his “old country”.
His claim of an entire continent, rather than a country, is based upon an attachment to a community with whom he shares an identity, but does not share a history…or historical reason for claiming the whole continent.
Which country is Africa…as applied to him, is simply the thought exercise of working through the above…it is not, I assure you…that I am not “smart” enough to know which is a continent and which is a country between Africa and Kenya.
Any imbecile who believed Gov. Palin didn’t know the difference and then jumps up and down and pees their pants shouting it out at recess on the playground…needs a timeout and no cartoons for a week.
cfbleachers (1f4df1) — 11/8/2008 @ 3:56 amI’m glad it’s your last word on this, because it was a pretty weak defense. If that’s the best you can do, you really don’t have an argument at all.
He says fathers are important? Well whoop-dee-doo. Does he get credit for saying the sun rises int he east, too?
And he said he didn’t believe the horrible rumors about the Palin family. Yep, that’s a Profile in Courage right there. Of course, he made no attempt whatsoever to put and end to them, regardless of your twisted logic that says that an unequivocal denouncement would have made them go on longer.
FAct is, he’s not a particularly good man and there isn’t enough lipstick in the world to make that pig look kissable.
Jimmie (7b8555) — 11/8/2008 @ 5:33 am“Kevin – Are you now claiming to be an intellectual shithead or a fucking grammar Nazi or some other piece of useless internet trash?”
Kevin (5ac156) — 11/8/2008 @ 5:33 amYes.
@Dave Surls:
It isn’t over ’till you’re dead. By age 55, you surely must be ready for a change in the way you look, right? I certainly hope so. Together, we can rescue you from being a hippie. Can we help you cut that hair? Yes we can! Can we convince you to throw away those 40 year old t-shirts? Yes we can!
You’ve been waiting for someone to come along and break your turntable to force you to listen to different music. We are the ones that we’ve been waiting for!
Happy hopenchange, friend.
Kevin (5ac156) — 11/8/2008 @ 5:44 amI came here because I wanted to see how a conservative blog looks like. I have seen the comments, I find them disgusting, and I will never come back.
Bruno (c484e1) — 11/8/2008 @ 6:12 amPatterico,
I think you need to throw a bone to all the people who are unrepentantly anti-Obama in these several past threads. How about a contest to find a nickname for him, along the lines of Chimpy or Shrub, with the rule that it must be something that you can say in front of your mother at Sunday dinner.
nk (95bfab) — 11/8/2008 @ 6:24 am“He has associated with some sleazy and awful people for political advantage”
If only it were just that. He associated with these people because he shares their outlook, one bankrupt of worth and inimical to freedom in its pursuit of “social justice.” He’s created hellholes in Chicago in pursuit of his agenda. He cheated children of resources to experiment with methods designed not to advance literacy or numeracy, or critical thinking, but to train young minds to resist being assimilated by the values and legacy of the western civilization and the enlightenment – to turn them into social cogs who surrender to the collective.
SarahW (a6e80b) — 11/8/2008 @ 6:24 am#429, nk, good idea. My entry is DumBO or some other convenient variation.
Ropelight (5b609a) — 11/8/2008 @ 6:34 amNice post Pat. Being decent doesn’t necessarily make for a great president, but anyone who can keep his decency while having the ambition and drive to claim the presidency is remarkable indeed.
Shodo (dbfcb4) — 11/8/2008 @ 6:39 amI came here because I wanted to see how a conservative blog looks like. I have seen the comments, I find them disgusting, and I will never come back.
[sarc]Yeah I know, HuffPo, DU and Kos are far more civil and intellectual than we are.[/sarc]
Eyedoc (09b583) — 11/8/2008 @ 6:43 amI miss Bruno already :).
Kevin (5ac156) — 11/8/2008 @ 6:57 amIs that Bruno the falming fashion designer from Austria?
I love him!!!!
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/8/2008 @ 7:06 amDidn’t Kim duToit do that one time?
Answer a questionairre that he was “African-American”?
N. O'Brain (453dd2) — 11/8/2008 @ 7:11 amcfbleachers,
In that ven diagram the circles over-lap about 95%.
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/8/2008 @ 7:11 amMabye African Americans can once again reinvent themselves as Obamicans.
A new slogan for a new day … with the same results.
I am still waiting for the Reparations discussion to start so that Obama can prove his “decency” by saying no to the isse. No doubt Republican Proof Democrats will float the fallacious ballon, the media will debtae it seriously and then BHO will say no to hit a home run with his eternally guilt and morally challenged white voters.
I predict somewhere in 2012 just to give BHO juice.
Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/8/2008 @ 7:17 amObama wants to be seen as a good man?
Fine, let him stand up to one fifth of what Bush went through and see if he displays one tenth of the graciousness and dignity. Bush truly did ‘reach accross the aisle’ – pissing off alot of his base in the process. You think Barry O’bomber would try that assuming he even wanted to?
Based on what we’ve seen so far it will never happen. Presidente Zero is not interested in moving to the center or actually being decent to the opposition. It took him three tries to get the invasion of Georgia right. Sure he wants to appear smooth and gracious. But deep down all he cares about is getting his way.
The Dems are going to learn what happens when you select a preening, arrogant, stuffed shirt jackass and put him under a microscope only after placing him in a position of responsibility.
ThomasD (1659da) — 11/8/2008 @ 7:21 amI find interesting the use of the phrase my president. Reminiscent of another phrase used about 65+ years ago.
Horatio (55069c) — 11/8/2008 @ 7:38 amMalkin used term Do’h-bama today. Maybe it is ok if you’re into Homer Simpson. I like the fresh prince of bill ayers, but too long. O…..shit! is what we will will be saying soon enough.
So what is the current status of the long awaited merging of the Canada, US and Mexico into one big European community type ghetto? Some recall the secret meetings of Bush, Vincenet Fox and whoever was running Canada at the time. Sounds like something libtards and the UN would welcome. Why can’t barry hussein just be king of the world? He’s got the frog and nazi vote locked down. Hey, we could be like West Germant assimilating the very poor East Germany. Raise the standard of living for all those poor cucarachas in Mexico who eschew changing their own country or even working. Just keep border patrol on Mexican southern border to keep cental and south american scum out. And maybe do a little genocide on those Mexican Indian types.
madmax333 (0c6cfc) — 11/8/2008 @ 8:09 am_________________________________________________
That hokey sign attached to the lectern in front of Obama is similar to another pseudo seal used by Obama several months ago:
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/06/department_of_obama_image_debu.html
Makes me think of an attempt to give that which is hollow or counterfeit an appearance of gravitas and legitimacy. Or the kind of maneuver that underaged teenagers use when attempting to buy booze and need to prove to the shopkeeper that, yes, they’re at least 21 years old.
Any of these things by themselves can be disregarded or laughed off, even by someone like me who doesn’t care one bit for Obama’s politics. But when they’re all added together — from Ayers and Wright to comments that compare America with Nazi Germany and an incoming president’s use of psuedo seals (or, as someone has mentioned, the kind of cracks about Reagan that I’m sure are fashionable among the leftist elite) — I can’t help but think that the USA soon will be run by the type of individual associated with Banana Republics.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/31718_Obama_Compared_America_to_Nazi_Germany
Mark (411533) — 11/8/2008 @ 8:33 amPatterico, I think you need to go watch his full rally with Planned Parenthood. How can you tell them to take care of their children when he takes loads of money/lobbies the vote from PP? I’m sure he realizes where the clinics are located as well as the number of black children aborted compared to others (16% blacks get 34% of all abortions/Guttenberg). How does he expect that while many states pay for abortions through medical plans.
This is a second generation cycle of death. We have young black men who have no clue how to be men, boyfriends, husbands, fathers… they have no examples due to their fathers not being present. Their examples are who they hang around with and rap videos… see the problem? The girls see those same videos and never had their fathers around, hence they don’t know how to be women, wives, mothers.
No knowledge, self-esteem, responsibility. When they abort instead of thinking about consequences and responsibilities beforehand, they are damaged mentally as well… and it affects their relationships with other children they may have, as well as with men (an abusive cycle). Neither knows the station in life of men or women, their roles. So you have young men who think women are just for using and move on, women who think they are to be used, both with no self-esteem. This is where abortion has taken us.
I know girls in their high teens who’ve had six abortions, I can’t see the ‘health’ aspect. I don’t know about men, but no one can tell me they walk by a pregnant woman or a young baby in a stroller without thinking about some aspect of their pregnancies. I also wonder what the men involved think on that part of manhood, protector, provider as well. Don’t get me started on the late term and partial birth abortions… that can’t be easier.
re: BAIPA
I also suggest you listen to the audio from Springfield and his comments (i’m sure you read all the legislation/acts).
Also think on what his daughters thought and how he addressed them (if questioned by them or not), after his ‘I don’t want my daughter punished with a baby’ statement at a rally. Do you think for a second his oldest thought ‘Was I wanted’? Would she even have a ‘choice’, should she became pregnant as a teen?
We have a lot of young adults and children that know their moms had an abortion after them, think of what that could do to their minds. I’m sure, re: Margaret Sanger, Singer or the enviro-eugenicists, it’s a good thing… the earth is less populated, the lesser races are getting rid of their own slowly. You remember the Buck case, the interplay with some of our elites, industrialists of the past, Sangers movement and the Nazis, you saw Schiavo case and the ‘mercy’ killing/Death with Dignity movement.
We are headed for the Groningen Protocol here.
Note also re: Obama (snip): We need fathers to recognize their responsibility doesn’t just end at conception.
Is he not, contrary to his votes re: BAIPA, admitting that a child at least has a right to a father, while not ‘having the paygrade’ to determine if it has human rights?
Off topic question: Was not marriage taken up by the secular as it promoted society and produced children? Sure it’s not needed to procreate, know paternity, assume child support or survivor rights per se, but it is for stability of the family, which helps the state/country.
How does the practice of abortion help society or the individual?
Candy (8e1a26) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:00 amJeez, no wonder you moronic conservatives loved Sarah, all of you seem to be as intelligent as her and that isn’t saying much. lol
No matter what your political views are, you should really THANK GOD that OBAMA won. I could only imagine what this country would be like if something happened to John McCain and that bimbo fool had to take over. I can’t decide who is dumber Sarah or George. It’s a close contest, but if you throw in the moronic right-wingers, no contest, It’s a TIE FOR ALL OF YOU.
Obama is a ray of hope for us, a chance for CHANGE that we all need. I am sure you will all be “eating crow” once this country FINALLY gets put on the right path again with OBAMA!!!
GO GO GO OBOMA – CHANGE, HOPE AND INTELLIGENCE RULE !!!!
Julie (fbd4c9) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:50 amDo you understand what an election is all about? It is about passing judgement on a candidate. Not his campaign promises which all candidates will break in greater or lesser numbers, but the individual and their judgement to lead. As you say, this is a man we know little about. So it is just as foolish to start pronouncing him “good” as it is to pronounce him “bad.” I do know he is a man who has exercised poor judgement (at the very least) in the past and promises to exercise poor judgement in the future. As Patterico himself points out, he clings to left-wing policies that will harm the country. Since I plan on opposing those policies, it is not only premature to start praising the sterling character I’m not really sure he has based on the thin evidence Patterico has produced in favor of it, along with evidence against that conclusion, but unwise politically. All it will do is make my opposition harder. More to the point, it’s you and Patterico, not me, who are committing the “sin” of passing judgement on a man you know very little about. It is just as much a character judgment to say he is good as to say he is bad.
The American ideal that makes us the envy of other nations is our commitment to individual liberty. As stated in the Declaration of Independence we all have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. “Life” means the right to defend and preserve my own life, “Liberty” means the ability to act in my own self interest, and “pursuit of happiness” means I have the right to determine my own self interest, what makes me happy, and not have it determined for me by some state-church or government.
Much of the reason so much has been a disaster for not only the past 8 years but a lot longer than that is because government has been diverted to other purposes.
McCain and Bush weren’t great choices, but I held my nose and voted for them because I thought them the lesser of two evils. They never said or did anything to show they understood the function of government, but they never said or did anything that showed the opposed the purposes for which this nation was founded. Obama, and Gore and Kerry before him, have said such things.
For instance, take Obama’s “when we redistribute the wealth it’s good for everybody” approach to economic justice. I am constantly told that is charitable, and I ought to want to support that, and it is somehow “unchristian” not to do so. Both by Obama and his supporters. Obama even calls opposition to the idea making “selfishness a virtue.”
Sorry, see the “pursuit of happiness” above. This nation was founded on the idea that I could not have such ideas imposed upon me. I am free to choose my religion, worship or not worship or not worship as I see fit. To decide what is in my own best interest, including how I dispense charity, and not have some government or quai-religious mandate imposed upon me. If I choose to give to a charity I have the liberty to do so if that makes me happy. If I choose to give a lump sum to the government and say, “divide this up and give it away,” I have the liberty to do so if that makes me happy. If the government confiscates my or anyone else’s money to redistribute because they have a superior idea about what I ought to be happy to do, then they are violating the right to liberty and pursuit of happiness.
So who are you to impose the “gospel of Obama” upon me? Especially when that gospel chooses to dispense with the 10th commandment, “Thou shalt not desire anything that belongs to your neighbor,” and mine retains it? In my religion, it is a sin to desire or plan to divide up what God has decided to give to others. Instead we should be happy that God has chosen to give them what He thought they should have and what He thought we should have. Every monotheistic religion has a similar version of that. In Islam it is “And do not covet what we bestowed upon any other people. Such are temporary ornaments of this life, whereby we put them to the test. What your Lord provides for you is far better, and everlasting.”
So I’m not impressed that Obama has managed to come up with half-baked moral justifications for redistribution based on selective readings of the bible. I am impressed that he’s managed to sell what is actually violation of the 10 commandments as practiced in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as some sort of moral mandate. Do you see that as a hopeful sign.?
His redistribution plans also are hostile to the mission and vision statement of the United States. He wants me to not only sin by assisting him in his plan to violate my neighbors liberty to pursue happiness by taking his means to do so, but violate my own right to pursue happiness by replacing my own vision of a good that makes me happy, with what he and 50% plus 1 of the electorate dictate I ought to want if I weren’t such an evil, selfish person.
That’s hardly hope. Nor does it have anything to do with the ideals that make this country great. If you’re going to say you love your country, that’s information you ought to have.
Steve (458b16) — 11/8/2008 @ 10:34 amJulie – Thank you for your deep thoughts. You may now sink back into your intellectual stupor.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/8/2008 @ 10:41 amSteve,
Excellent comment.
DRJ (cb68f2) — 11/8/2008 @ 10:41 amI think Steve’s been saving up for a while, and finally found that he had to get it all out.
Well Done!
Another Drew (70642b) — 11/8/2008 @ 10:54 amI agree Barack Obama, on a personal level, is a decent guy. I am sure I would like him. He is more of a true believer and less swarmy like Bill Clinton.
Of course, that he is a true believer also makes him more dangerous on the social policies he might put in place.
Joe (dcebbd) — 11/8/2008 @ 10:55 amExactly.
Steve (458b16) — 11/8/2008 @ 11:11 amComment please. Where is it?
Peter (e70d1c) — 11/8/2008 @ 11:11 amModerator, email me. thx.
Peter (e70d1c) — 11/8/2008 @ 11:30 amEven a truly decent man is capable of making indecent proposals.
Icy Truth (84d054) — 11/8/2008 @ 11:40 am@Steve,
Kudos. I have no idea what you said, since it was too long to read (for me at least), but good job on writing a very long thing. When people discuss long-worded stuff, I’ll bet a quarter your name comes up.
If you mentioned that Patterico was a goob for trusting Obama’s words instead of Obama’s actions… even better.
Kevin (5ac156) — 11/8/2008 @ 4:47 pmIf you can’t read really long stuff, what are you doing posting the 458th comment on, well, just about anything?
Steve (a69f84) — 11/9/2008 @ 12:01 am