Patterico's Pontifications

10/8/2008

You Don’t Speak for Me, Katie Granju

Filed under: 2008 Election — DRJ @ 4:04 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

I hate gender and racial issues that unnecessarily divide us and this KnoxNews article by Katie Allison Granju is an example of that kind of unproductive divisiveness. In it, Granju criticizes Sarah Palin for her failure to recognize with sufficient humility the sacrifices of women who came before her and their contribution to her success:

For the millions of American women in their 50s, 60s and beyond who remember workplaces before second wave feminism, Palin’s attitude toward women’s issues is just plain offensive. These women toiled in work environments where bringing a child to work would have been unthinkable. In fact, they were generally fired as soon as they became pregnant. They remember the days before the law protected female workers against sexual harassment and blatant discrimination. They know that it’s only in the last generation or so that more fathers have, like Todd Palin, begun taking an equal role in childcare and household management so their wives can go out into the world as professionals. These are women who had mothers and grandmothers who told them what it was like to live in a country where women had no political voice, or even the right to vote.”

Unlike Katie, who has to interview past generations of professional women to know what they think and feel, I am that 50-something professional woman with a career, a husband, and children. I managed to do it, successfully I think, without ACLU protests or suing anyone.

Along the way, I had to change one job because my marriage violated a [newly written] nepotism rule. I quit another because of a pregnancy when I decided I couldn’t do my job properly and mother my children the way I wanted. My former employers and I learned from my experiences and we made accommodations that helped us succeed — me as a professional wife and mother and them as employers who need professional wives and mothers in the workforce.

It’s true, Katie, that women who came after me were able to succeed in part because I paved the way, but that’s true of everyone. I succeeded because men and women before me did things that made my life and career easier. Life is not a gender club and no one owes me a thing, including you.

People face challenges in life and that’s part of the deal. Instead of demanding accommodations, I did what people have been doing for generations and what Sarah Palin is doing now: I did my best. I gratefully accepted help from family and friends. I succeeded at times and not at others, and I learned from every experience.

H/T Instapundit.

— DRJ

82 Responses to “You Don’t Speak for Me, Katie Granju”

  1. You owe me a new keyboard…Mt Dew all over the place when I hit the last paragraph of her little screed:

    “Feminism isn’t about “whining.” It’s about courageously raising issues and breaking barriers so that our daughters will have more opportunities and credibility than we have today, just as we have more than our mothers had 25 years ago. And smart women, gracious women, know when to give credit where credit is due. Sarah Palin does not.”

    Feminism = “more credibility”? Now THAT’S funny right there, I don’t care who you are… I am sure the legions of lesbians at NOW have their fist in the air going “Right on!”

    They would not recognize irony if it bit them on the ass…

    Bob (b72687)

  2. DRJ: Excellent post; well said.

    Old Coot (b63ab3)

  3. Part of Katie’s bio – Shocka!

    “I’ve been involved in politics for many years and first interned with a Tennessee congressman in Washington D.C. for several months when I was fifteen (I have no idea what my parents were thinking). I spent two college summers in D.C. working on the Hill, and I also served as national treasurer of College Democrats of America during that period. These days, I have a strong interest in a number of issues specific to my adopted hometown. I have been involved in many Democratic campaigns over the years and I intend to eventually run for office myself. I’m one of those dewy eyed optimists who still believes that public service matters, and can make a difference. I was raised that way, and hope to impart the same values to my children.”

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  4. Ah, DRJ. You are a hero, as is my own wife, and for similar reasons.

    But in our current politically poisoned environment, it seems that some forms of feminism are more equal than others!

    After all, to coin a phrase, you weren’t sitting home baking cookies, like Tammy Wynette, standing by her man. Remember that one?

    We were told, over and over again, that Hillary Clinton got to define feminism as she chose. How dare anyone question her experience and view!

    Tell Sarah Palin that.

    On the other hand, unlike Senator Clinton, Governor Palin seems pretty confident about herself.

    As do you!

    Thank you for genuinely “speaking truth to power”—and by power, I mean the PC Conventional Wisdom.

    Eric Blair (2708f4)

  5. Actually, I loved this statement:

    “…And smart women, gracious women, know when to give credit where credit is due….”

    Which translates to several things:

    1. People who don’t agree with the author are not smart, nor are they gracious.
    2. Women must bow before the hierarchy of authority figures. Just not male ones.

    Why, the other day on campus, I heard a woman—an ardent feminist—state that she was “outraged” that Sarah Palin had “a voice” in this election.

    Perhaps she should be seen and not heard?

    There must be a name for displaying the faults one decries in others!

    Eric Blair (2708f4)

  6. Money quote from the comment thread:

    “The author of a blog called “Because I said so” declares Palin to be too smug.

    Heh.

    Posted by: Sortelli at October 8, 2008 3:15 PM”

    Federal Dog (1404a2)

  7. Comment by Eric Blair — 10/8/2008 @ 4:50 pm

    Dude. Two great comments of yours above. Nicely said.

    DRJ: Awesome post. Came of age after the wave of 60s feminism and am sure I don’t appreciate (enough, anyway) all that women put up with before us. I don’t take for granted, though, that I’m extremely fortunate and blessed never to have had to work for a sexist or disrespectful boss, almost all my bosses have been male and all have been awesome – respectful, fair, equitable pay, good supervisors (except for the one but he didn’t last long, thank goodness), appreciative of skills and hard work. Women couldn’t take such treatment for granted before I grew up and for that I’m very grateful to “the feminists.”

    What takes away from my gratitude, I think, is mostly the assiduous dedication they have to killing unborn children. Secondarily, it’s their expressing, so often, hatred of men instead of appreciating the (sorry but it’s true) God-given differences between men and women and because of a very few jerks, having chips on their shoulders and expecting men to stop being men and act like women, instead of just being what the great majority are: decent men.

    Sorry for the long post. I get heated over this “gender feminists speak for all women” stuff.

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  8. I know just how you feel, DRJ, when political partisans tell you that you ought to be blindly loyal to one side because of ‘all they’ve done for you.’ Just last night, in the “Any Argument Against Obama … is Racist” thread, I identified myself as a black man and wrote in response to “La”:

    “La” (really?) wrote: If Obama was white, would there even be a question about who to choose? No.

    I am black and live in San Francisco. I have to put up with socialists running my town. I don’t want them running my maddog country too. It doesn’t matter what color his skin is, a red is a red is a red.

    The Obamatrolls’ response was predictable:

    Barry Smith: You ‘LN Smithee’ aint no brutha man … Brotherhood is not mere skin color. But Of course, you wouldn’t know that.

    La: Oh, and you arent n e (sic) type of brother I’ve seen :)

    It was ten years ago this week when Nobel Prize-winning novelist Toni Morrison wrote her in/famous piece for the New Yorker in which she wrote:

    …white skin notwithstanding, this is our first black President. Blacker than any actual black person who could ever be elected in our children’s lifetime. After all, Clinton displays almost every trope of blackness: single-parent household, born poor, working-class, saxophone-playing, McDonald’s-and-junk-food-loving boy from Arkansas.

    I was so incensed after reading it, I stayed late after work until I finished a stream-of-consciousness rant that I posted on Free Republic that evening. I will re-post it tomorrow on my sporadically-updated blog.

    L.N. Smithee (d1de1b)

  9. You can put lipstick on Katie Granju, but she is still a hate monger…better known as an enlightened, better-than-you liberal.

    Perfect Sense (9d1b08)

  10. no one you know,

    For every adversity I faced, I worked with men who faced problems that were just as difficult and I’m sure your generation faces equally challenging issues. There’s truth to the idea that every adversity is an opportunity and there’s also something to be said for being a pioneer. It’s exciting and fun to be among the first.

    DRJ (c953ab)

  11. Comment by L.N. Smithee — 10/8/2008 @ 5:13 pm

    L.N.,
    Would be very interested in seeing your comments on that. I remember that Toni Morrison thing and remember feeling pretty baffled at her race-sophistry, and even more annoyed.

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  12. But remember, “our first Black President” is now a de facto racist. Because The Messiah said so.

    Dmac (cc81d9)

  13. LN,

    Leave a comment on a recent thread when you post your essay so I will know to check it out.

    DRJ (c953ab)

  14. Nice post DRJ and well said. I come from a long line of strong women on my side of the family, each with inspirational stories of overcoming obstacles. My wife is the same way and an inspiration to my kids and me as well. Our daughters, both adults now, get it and are well on their way to following in the footsteps of these wonderful women.

    Voiceofreason2 (897344)

  15. no one you know wrote:

    L.N.,
    Would be very interested in seeing your comments on that. I remember that Toni Morrison thing and remember feeling pretty baffled at her race-sophistry, and even more annoyed.

    Cool, I’ll get at least ONE hit. :)

    Here’s a link to Morrison’s original piece from the New Yorker archives.

    L.N. Smithee (d1de1b)

  16. I read that screed by Katie and felt it did not even deserve a comment.

    Best I can tell, she believes Palin is bad because of three things:

    1) She did not suffer enough,

    2) She is not angry/bitter enough, and

    3) She is not Democrat enough.

    jim2 (a54533)

  17. L.N. – I apologize if I was out of line in my defense of you in the other thread. Allah knows you do not need my help. For some reason, Barry and La’s mendoucheity pissed me off more than normal.

    JD (f7900a)

  18. My view is very closely lined with DRJ’s and NOYK. What is frustrating is that Granju fails to realize many of us evidenced our feminist outlook without having to have a fit about it while swearing allegiance to an organization attempting to convince us that we owed our loyalty to them. Also, she has no clue what Palin thinks about it. All she is seeing is a woman living a full, robust life, and happy with it. Therein is the offense. How dare she not bow to the sisters who suffered in acknowledgment. Honest to god, play it the other way and you see Palin wouldn’t be where she is if it weren’t for a corrupt man governing Alaska so a in essence a man gave her a plum opportunity, not a woman. When taken to its end, with her reasoning, this is how ridiculous Granju’s thinking becomes.

    I too came up int the first wave, had 3 children and not because feminists allowed me to or paved the way but chose to leave a well paying position with all the perks to be home with them and home school them for 5 years. It was my hard work and my husband doing the heavy lifting of supporting his family that saw us through. So I willfully became the antithesis of what is considered a successful woman – I opted for what I considered the most important part of life to focus on at the time. Being a stay-at-home mom.

    What’s troubling with Granju is she is judging me for my success as well as every woman’s. We must buy and believe her line or else we are as offensive as Palin. But I don’t buy her line and I don’t believe it. I think its sexist and self-centered. Women would not be where they are without the cultural changes which are equally shared with both sexes throughout history.

    Dana (049cf9)

  19. I’m going to be a male chauvinist pig for a moment here. Sorry in advance.

    Back when I applied to medical school, there were very few women accepted. The reason was that the male admissions committees assumed that most of those women would marry and have a family and would choose to stop practicing or only practice in reduced hours. There was a strong presumption of a doctor shortage and that was considered a serious concern.

    One of the few women medical students at the time was a terrific person named Bernice Brown. She was about 30 and had a 10-year-old daughter (ages are approximations). She was a single mother and she was accepted, I think, because it was obvious that she was making it on her own and would be very unlikely to follow the assumed path of marriage and dropping out of the work force because she was now past that point.

    She was also a great person and a pal. Among other marks of distinction, she became the only female member of Nu Sigma Nu fraternity, a medical fraternity that had an active social life, shall we say. The fraternity rush event each year was a flag football game with the freshman class. Winners paid for the beer. Bernice fit right in with the guys yet was feminine. She was tall and attractive and ultimately married again about the time of graduation.

    This is Bernice. She became a mentor for other women and a prominent figure in LA medical circles.

    Was it discrimination ? Yes.

    Was there a rational basis ? I think so although it went too far.

    What has happened is that the Lyndon Johnson administration decided that flooding the market with doctors would bring down medical costs. Who said Democrats are good at economics ? USC medical school went from 66 graduates in my class to 200 now. Women are more than 50% of the students now.

    What about workforce studies ?

    Inquiry. 1984 Winter;21(4):361-8.Links
    Why do women physicians work fewer hours than men physicians?

    Mitchell JB.
    Because of the large public investment in medical education, it is important to understand why women physicians work significantly less than men physicians. National survey data on office-based private practice physicians were used to estimate (using two-stage least squares technique) hours and weeks worked for men and women physicians separately. Contrary to conventional wisdom, shorter work weeks for women physicians are not the result of child care responsibilities. Nor would higher earnings encourage women physicians to work longer hours. Instead, we found significant work reductions among married women physicians (but not men), implying subordination of careers by women where combined family incomes are high.

    The old admissions committees were correct about women MDs work patterns although all physicians now work fewer hours than I did. Some of it comes from changes in reimbursement. Doctors don’t make the money they did 30 years ago. Another is a cultural thing that goes beyond money. This generation of students doesn’t work as hard as we did. Some of that comes from the Libby Zion case. Some of it is a reaction to hard driving parents whose lives were not attractive to their more affluent children.

    Sorry to bore everyone but there were some rational reasons why women had barriers 50 years ago. Courageous women, like my friend Bernice Brown, pushed through them but the world has changed a lot, too. I have a daughter who is a lawyer. I’m sure it was easier for her to get admitted 18 years ago than it would have been 40 years ago but she was passed over by UCLA for a suitemate with lower GPA and LSAT scores who was a Latina. She had to go out of state to law school.

    I think all this is progress and women physicians are in great demand. A male OB/GYN graduate has a very hard time getting a job now. That specialty is totally women. The world changes. I don’t think that every women MD has to bow and scrape before the memory of women like Bernice Brown, and she would laugh at them if they did. They just need to live their lives and be the best they can be.

    That woman columnist has a great future as a Democratic candidate for something. Sorry to go on so long.

    Mike K (d8deba)

  20. jim2…

    This is the money line….

    3) She is not Democrat enough.

    Every failing that Conservative, successful women have in the eyes of Liberals/Democrats,
    can be boiled down to that one line,
    3) She is not Democrat enough.

    When you leave the plantation, you become a non-person.

    AOracle (db2f44)

  21. DRJ, gracious comments as usual. And not enough people talk about all the sacrifices men make. Re: “pioneers,” I suppose it’s easier to see how other generations have been pioneers in one area or another; personally I feel like I just got the benefit of others’ sacrifices, in the workforce arena, and walked relatively speaking a very smooth and easy path. This fact has always sparked a desire to put out more effort where I can in other areas in which women can speak to “feminists” who aren’t interested in listening to men, about issues like abortion, etc.

    Also, she has no clue what Palin thinks about it. All she is seeing is a woman living a full, robust life, and happy with it. Therein is the offense.

    Dana,
    Your whole comment was great but this, I think, hits the nail on the head. I have never seen a gender feminist who is either pro-life, or a happy woman.

    While I’m thinking about it, just BTW: Feminists for Life is a great organization.

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  22. jim2 – she believes Palin is bad because of
    She’s not a Democrat. That’s all Katie needs to know.

    DRJ – Great post, but I had another thought that I’d like your opinion on –

    The argument that women are where they are now only because of women who fought for women’s rights in the past bothers me. It bothers me because it seems to make the assumption that women in the workplace are place-holders for legitimacy, rather than an asset.

    In other words, pioneering women are a part of the story, but the fact is that societies that have not learned to utilize the skills and intellect of half their populations are simply not competitive with those that do so.

    Women in the workforce isn’t a choice. They’re a necessity, and the pioneers were the ones raising an argument that benefited the dynamic, while punishing the static.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  23. DRJ

    Thanks.

    There are lots of ways to blaze a trail… in your case its seems the fireworks are “over there” and the accomplishment is on your side.

    One of my favorite quote which I have always heard attributed to John Wooden is: Never mistake activity for accomplisment.
    In my opinion lots of people…. feminists included, make this mistake. Yelling and screaming is often just yelling and screaming… while people like yourself just move forward through the barriers with grace and accomplishment.
    You are awesome.

    SteveG (71dc6f)

  24. Oh and I guess Ms. Granju thanks Tim Berners-Lee every time she clicks ‘Submit’?

    w3bgrrl (5b8906)

  25. “Submit.” That has a whole other level of funny.

    Eric Blair (2708f4)

  26. Was there a rational basis ? I think so although it went too far.

    Mike, your argument seems to be based on the idea that the only measure of the worth of a doctor is hours worked. For all I know, women are much better doctors and retire 15 years after men do on average. Also, what you quote is only one type of practice.

    Even if it’s all true, every word, I still don’t think it’s very relevant. If you say women can’t be firefighters, it’s true that some women are too small to carry a large person out of a building burning. That is not, however, a good reason to forbid any and every woman from attempting to pass a physical test to try to become a firefighter. A rational basis for discrimination is still discrimination.

    MamaAJ (788539)

  27. “Submit.” That has a whole other level of funny.

    Comment by Eric Blair — 10/8/2008 @ 6:23 pm

    So true, especially when it becomes clear that radical feminists want men – and other women, and their own unborn children – everyone else in the world, in fact, to submit to them.

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  28. noyk – Ironically, if you go back through the recent threads, we had a drive-by troll, Mitsy if memory serves, who was willing to make reproductive choices for other women. Specifically, she thought that Gov. Palin having a child after the age of 40 was a prime example of her having poor judgment, and that by having a Down’s child, she created a burden for the taxpayers of Alaska. And she claimed to be a feminist.

    JD (f7900a)

  29. Gratitude, huh?

    The world is charged with the grandeur of God.
    It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;
    It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil
    Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?
    Generations have trod, have trod, have trod;
    And all is seared with trade; Bleared, smeared with toil;
    And wears man’s smudge and shares man’s smell: the soil
    Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.

    And for all this, nature is never spent;
    There lives the dearest freshness deep down things;
    And though the last lights off the black West went
    Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs —
    Because the Holy Ghost over the bent
    World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.

    Shut up, Granju.

    Dan Collins (4dc2da)

  30. Dan – Were you the first person to use mendoucheous as a word ?

    JD (f7900a)

  31. I think so, JD. But so far, Rush hasn’t used it, as far as I know.

    In other words, not to be Axelroddy about it, I’d never heard it before when I used it, in relation to Greenwald, so, yeah.

    Dan Collins (4dc2da)

  32. But, hey–don’t go thinking that poem’s mine, because it’s Gerard Manley Hopkins, SJ.

    Dan Collins (4dc2da)

  33. It is one of my favorites, and in another thread someone asked what it meant. I credited you. I make it a point to use that word daily. It shows up in google.

    JD (f7900a)

  34. Oh my, oh my. One of my Top Ten favorite poems, right here on Patterico’s. (And IIRC you’re a Catholic too, Mr. Collins.) Thanks very much for posting – made my evening.

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  35. Yay! Thanks! Let us hope and pray that someday it needn’t be deployed so frequently.

    Dan Collins (4dc2da)

  36. Better Half really likes this post. I made her read it.

    JD (f7900a)

  37. I have never seen a gender feminist who is either pro-life, or a happy woman.

    So true! If Palin were less exuberant, restrained and had an air of weariness to her, I don’t think the critics would be as harsh because she would then evidence *understanding* …think: nobody knows the trouble I’ve seen…

    Betty Friedan likened the suburban home to “a “comfortable concentration camp” where women suffer a “slow death of mind and spirit.” Like the inmates of the camps, she said, American suburban housewives had become “walking corpses.”

    To a great extent, this enterprise from its origins tapped into an inherent quality in women that is somewhere between anger and a discontentedness that is just as palpable today. Happiness and an a contentment in life is the enemy.

    Dana (049cf9)

  38. Mike, your argument seems to be based on the idea that the only measure of the worth of a doctor is hours worked. For all I know, women are much better doctors and retire 15 years after men do on average. Also, what you quote is only one type of practice.

    No, I said only that the reason at the time was a perceived doctor shortage and an assumption that women would work fewer years and hours. That was the reason for admission committees to reject women applicants. There were also quite a few jokes about homely women being accepted because they would be unlikely to get married. Sort of like the old saw about using a homely Catholic teenager as a babysitter because she’d be available on Saturday nights.

    Bernice was a rather flamboyant exception to that rule and I tried to make that clear.

    I agree that women have filled many niches in medicine that men do not do as well in, such as OB. I didn’t quote one type of practice. In fact, women disproportionately choose “life style ” specialties and I could list many articles on the difficulty of recruiting women for rural practice, for example.

    All that aside, the shortage which was assumed to exist at the time went away as a result of government policies and thereafter posed no impediment to women applicants. Their numbers, correspondingly rose after that. All I was saying was that the admissions committee was just not blindly misogynist. They had rational reasons, even if we disagree about them now.

    I’m trying to be honest and, of course, you can parody what I say to make your point. That doesn’t make it valid. A moment with Google would show you retirement figures, for example.

    Mike K (d8deba)

  39. Comment by JD — 10/8/2008 @ 6:31 pm

    Having been lurking a lot lately and know you’ve been having an ongoing disagreement with some other person or people about Palin’s actions vs. her beliefs in Alaska – about whether she acted to limit access to abortion or some such. Always shy away from the term “reproductive choice” (even though I know what you mean) because it’s such a common euphemism for abortion, but even more so because true “reproductive choice” has already been exercised, and the vote has been for reproduction, once that egg gets fertilized.

    Another human being exists at that point. The only “choice” left is whether or not to snuff out his or her (yes, radical feminists, gender IS determined at conception) life at that point.

    Now the only very rare exception is the horrible crime of rape, and an unexpected pregnancy resulting from that, but reproduction even in that case has already occurred. Studies have shown that women who have been raped and have an abortion are, over the long term, more upset by the abortion rather than the rape. IMO that’s because they know the rape was in no way their doing. They know they had a hand in the abortion.

    And just because I usually give this link when abortion starts being discussed at length, if anyone reading this is suffering after having been involved in abortion, there is free and confidential help available for you:

    Hope After Abortion Website

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  40. “a “comfortable concentration camp” where women suffer a “slow death of mind and spirit.” Like the inmates of the camps, she said, American suburban housewives had become “walking corpses.”

    I fail to see how prose so black can inspire anyone?
    I suppose I’m too rational, or too male, to think that an initial reaction to the above wouldn’t be to be repulsed by the thinking of anyone spouting it.

    Another Drew (db2f44)

  41. I am that 50-something professional woman with a career, a husband, and children.

    I’m going to forget you said that, because it’s too much fun mixing it up with you in the comments section. I will continue to picture you as a twenty-something, single intern for a prominent Republican California state senator.

    Phil (3b1633)

  42. I’m going to forget you said that, because it’s too much fun mixing it up with you in the comments section. I will continue to picture you as a twenty-something, single intern for a prominent Republican California state senator.

    Comment by Phil — 10/8/2008 @ 6:57 pm

    All due respect, Phil, but comments like that only give fuel to the notion, one I would have thought you’d want to refute even if you are joking, that the simple truth somehow isn’t good enough for those of the politically left persuasion. :)

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  43. AD, I’m a woman and spent time in college reading Friedan and friends, and frankly even then thought, WTF, these are people who lost their curiosity and wonder at life – and I suspected even then that it had less to do with the world around them and more to do with their own lack of peace of mind.

    Dana (049cf9)

  44. Comment by Dana — 10/8/2008 @ 7:05 pm

    My feelings too, Dana.
    I was exposed to this garbage in the day, after spending several years travelling to a few garden-spots courtesy of our Good Uncle.
    The reality of what I saw in other places, clashed heavily with the utter BS that was being espoused in academe upon my return. So much so, that after a while, and before completion, I just left.
    If Kourac had still been around, I could have joined him as just another lost soul on the road.

    Another Drew (db2f44)

  45. Let’s cut to the chase. Katie is hideous. That’s the worst hair cut I’ve ever seen. Are things so dire in Knoxville that they have to hire strange looking women with weird hair?

    I know that’s a mean statement, but seriously, I’d put a bag over my head before I let someone publish that photo.

    KateCoe (908d0e)

  46. People face challenges in life and that’s part of the deal. Instead of demanding accommodations, I did what people have been doing for generations and what Sarah Palin is doing now: I did my best. I gratefully accepted help from family and friends. I succeeded at times and not at others, and I learned from every experience.

    Ah, DRJ the entire post is excellent and especially the quoted paragraph. Your family is fortunate to have you at its center and we here are also very fortunate to have your contributions.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  47. Mike, my comment about type of practice was not about specialties, but about different types of jobs. Staff doctor at a hospital vs. private practice. Research. That’s what I was trying to get at.

    All I was saying was that the admissions committee was just not blindly misogynist. They had rational reasons, even if we disagree about them now.

    And if there had been too many doctors and too few jobs, they could have rationalized their decision by claiming they didn’t want to take jobs away from men who were going to be the primary wage earners for their families.

    Since the changes in opportunities for women changed around the same time for a variety of fields, I have a hard time thinking the hours issue was the main reason for the change. Call me cynical. I’m going to call myself tired and let it drop.

    MamaAJ (788539)

  48. Kate Coe, the bad ‘do goes with the territory. Always does. (Another thing Granju is ticked at Palin for: her richly lustrous hair, whether up or down its an offense to angry women everywhere) :)

    Dana (049cf9)

  49. whether up or down its an offense to angry women everywhere)

    Comment by Dana — 10/8/2008 @ 7:35 pm

    mmmmHMMMM

    They HATE her for it

    :)

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  50. NOYK, as if her sexy legs were not enough of an affront. That Palin woman has no shame!

    Dana (049cf9)

  51. Comment by Dana — 10/8/2008 @ 7:40 pm

    Plus, unlike others that could be named, she’s not two axe-handles wide.

    Another Drew (db2f44)

  52. The media does seem to like taking pictures of Gov. Palin’s calves. For that, I am grateful.

    JD (f7900a)

  53. Mike K,

    I appreciate your input and I can attest to most of what you’ve written. I’ve had extensive medical experience with my children and I live in a small town where we are close friends with many doctors, so I’ve heard doctors say what you said. And I do not view your statements as those of a chauvinist.

    I think you’ve addressed a business issue that impacts law and medicine. When businesses hire lawyers or doctors, or when decisions are made who to admit to law or medical school, we need to know those persons will be there to do the jobs they are trained to do. It is a waste of precious resources when a young lawyer or doctor decides to stop practicing for personal reasons. It doesn’t really matter if the reason is a decision to stay home with children or that they won the lottery.

    As a woman, I can say what you may be too chivalrous to say: Women want to be paid like men but a few act like they should be treated with kid gloves, as if being a professional and a mother deserves special accommodations from the working world. I applaud families that make sacrifices to balance work and family life, especially for the sake of their children. I applaud businesses that try to help employees and their families have better work and personal lives. But in today’s world, I don’t applaud special concessions for women that aren’t also available for men.

    DRJ (c953ab)

  54. NOYK, as if her sexy legs were not enough of an affront. That Palin woman has no shame!

    Comment by Dana — 10/8/2008 @ 7:40 pm

    And you know she wears those three inch heels at fourteen campaign stops every day. Pantsuits? What are those? *sucks teeth* The nerve!

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  55. this seems relevant to the subject at hand.

    carlitos (74ba2c)

  56. Phil:

    I will continue to picture you as a twenty-something, single intern for a prominent Republican California state senator.

    I absolutely insist that you think of me that way, although I prefer Austin to Sacramento.

    DRJ (c953ab)

  57. Comment by carlitos — 10/8/2008 @ 7:56 pm

    Has anyone seen that fake “motivational poster” – can’t find a link at the moment – entitled “PANTSUITS” and the huge picture is of the McCain and Palin women and girls on a campaign stage. The “motivational subcaption” reads (paraphrase): Six females on stage and not a one to be seen.

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  58. I will continue to picture you as a twenty-something, single intern for a prominent Republican California state senator.

    I absolutely insist that you think of me that way, although I prefer Austin to Sacramento.

    I am confuzzled. Is it sexist, or mandatory to think of people in such a manner?

    JD (f7900a)

  59. There are no sexists here, JD. And please thank your wife for reading this post.

    DRJ (c953ab)

  60. So I can let my imagination run wild without fear of being a sexist misognistic patriarchal pig? YIPPEE !

    JD (f7900a)

  61. Women in the workforce isn’t a choice. They’re a necessity, and the pioneers were the ones raising an argument that benefited the dynamic, while punishing the static.

    And yet it’s interesting to note that today more than ever the stay at home workforce is still being punished for their chosen occupation. How much and yet how little have things changed.

    Dana (049cf9)

  62. MamaAJ wrote:

    “If you say women can’t be firefighters, it’s true that some women are too small to carry a large person out of a building burning. That is not, however, a good reason to forbid any and every woman from attempting to pass a physical test to try to become a firefighter. A rational basis for discrimination is still discrimination.”

    Interesting bit here. My father is a retired firefighter. Before he retired, he rose as high as Battalion Chief in my hometown’s department. Anyway, when he was a Captain, many years ago, women first started to try to join the fire department, to the consternation of the “old guard” (this would have been the late 1970s).

    My father railed against how horrible it was, which was not a party to listen to nightly. And it was true that some women who tried to join the department wanted separate quarters (usually officers’ quarters), only be paramedics, and be exempt from the physicals. This upset the guys who were “following the rules” for the very small number of slots that were available each year.

    But not all of the women were like that. In fact, as the years went by, my father learned that there were many women who wanted to join the fire department, understood the necessity for the physical requirements, and trained to pass those tests. Often successfully. Some women could not pass those tests, but then, some men could not either.

    By the time my father retired, he was one of the biggest boosters of women in his fire department. The reason was simple: many of them wanted the job more than the male applicants. They knew it was an uphill battle (the physical requirements are daunting), and did all they could to train for it.

    That is feminism. Of course, I am one of those Y-chromosome types, so that probably sound condescending. The point is that my father changed his views, which I had never believed possible. He said the value of the person, not the plumbing.

    But then, Ms. Granju (and what if that was the best photograph she could find?) has already established that only some women count.

    Her type.

    Eric Blair (e60b98)

  63. And if there had been too many doctors and too few jobs, they could have rationalized their decision by claiming they didn’t want to take jobs away from men who were going to be the primary wage earners for their families.

    Once again, you choose an unrealistic hypothetical to make your point. In fact, what has happened is that the physician workforce has tripled and more and the work, amazingly, expanded to fill all that time and employ all those people. Now we have a situation where “physician extenders” like PAs and nurse practitioners are widely used and there is still talk of a shortage.

    The culture changed and the hours worked by physicians, men and women, have declined substantially. Woman fill niches and many restrict their hours for family and personal reasons. They disproportionately go into pediatrics and OB. Most work for clinics with limited hours. A few exceptions, like my friend Felice Gersh in Irvine, went on their own and did great. She has a husband in advertising or marketing. He ran ads for her practice back in the 70s which had a photo of her hugely pregnant and it said “Why not go to the pregnant Obstetrician ?” Her practice took off and she had six associates five years later, all women.

    All surgical groups are now seeking women surgeons to run breast clinics. This is the market at work. It wasn’t a conspiracy. That’s all I meant.

    Thanks DRJ.

    MIke K (d8deba)

  64. #43 Dana:

    WTF, these are people who lost their curiosity and wonder at life – and I suspected even then that it had less to do with the world around them and more to do with their own lack of peace of mind.

    I am frequently surprised in conversation with self-lefteous types to find out how much more fun and interesting my life has been than theirs. (And how many classes of victimhood I’m “entitled” to claim. Feh.)

    Course, then I visit here and get my ego deflated in a hurry…because I am, after all, just a very ordinary person.

    #58 JD

    I am confuzzled. Is it sexist, or mandatory to think of people in such a manner?

    Racist.

    EW1(SG) (fd7939)

  65. self-lefteous types

    Great word.

    You snuck that racist thing in there. Mountain Dew through the nostrils. Thanks.

    JD (f7900a)

  66. 65 JD:

    Great word.

    It is. Thanks for the introduction! Now to use a few more times properly in a sentence…but I think everyone is tired of the O!ne at time of night.

    EW1(SG) (fd7939)

  67. EW1(SG):

    I am, after all, just a very ordinary person.

    I hope you include me in that description. I like being be an ordinary person.

    DRJ (c953ab)

  68. Bravissimo, DRJ! Well put, with concision and precision.

    Beldar (676b02)

  69. me and my gal [my honey] like to play-what I call “the John and Yoko” game
    everytime we disagree-I say-Yoko-get in the bag!
    [jokes should not be ‘splained-but-check out the Toronto “Peace” festival]

    pdbuttons (359493)

  70. I don’t get this argument from the feminists at all. I’ve heard Sarah Palin three times now praise Title IX and everything it did to open doors for her and build her character through sports. This is the most feminist piece of legislation that has ever been enacted. She mentioned Hillary Clinton and Geraldine Ferraro in her introductory speech. How can this be translated into her not giving enough credit to those who came before her?

    It is so obvious that the hatred of her comes solely because she is pro-life and has lived it, not just talked about it. She makes women who gave up family for career feel bad about those decisions now. She makes women who had abortions feel guilty about it because she shows that it isn’t necessary to kill your children in order to advance and succeed. She makes women who have non-supportive husbands and “baby daddies” feel bad because Todd isn’t like that.

    She is beautiful and she makes women who aren’t mad. She won’t wear a pantsuit or cut her hair short or otherwise act like a man. She puts the lie to the entire construct of the women’s movement that women must become more like men to be the equal of men, including denying motherhood and femininity. Her femininity is part of her power and she refuses to hide it. This drives some liberal women nuts.

    Tough shit.

    rockmom (e42807)

  71. Way to go, old pal.

    driver (56cdca)

  72. pdbuttons wrote: me and my gal [my honey] like to play-what I call “the John and Yoko” game

    You exterminate beetles?

    L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf)

  73. “I am, after all, just a very ordinary person.”

    I am reminded of a comment/question after the telling of some heroic exploit in some battle in some war….
    “Where do we find such men?”

    And, the answer is:
    On any main street, in any town of America!

    Just ordinary men (at least in their own eyes).

    Another Drew (930ac9)

  74. With this credit crunch thing happening, do feminist issues really matter in this election?

    Michael Ejercito (a757fd)

  75. 67 DRJ:

    I hope you include me in that description.

    I don’t.

    In a room full of intelligent raconteurs, your charm, grace, concision and wit set you apart.

    I would describe you as extraordinary.

    EW1(SG) (da07da)

  76. And something else demonstrating the commitment to feminism from the Left:

    http://edgeoforever.wordpress.com/2008/10/09/mother-id-love-to-punch-have-you-beaten-your-mother-today/

    That is, so long as you vote the correct way.

    It’s no different than the Bad Old Days, when old white men told women to pipe down and vote the way their betters told them to vote.

    Only now it’s women telling women how to vote.

    Or else, apparently.

    Seriously, imagine the same graphic, with a fist punching Obama. That would be roundly (and rightly) criticized.

    I don’t think that this Hope and Change business is all about unicorns and rainbows anymore.

    Eric Blair (2708f4)

  77. Eric Blair wrote: Seriously, imagine the same graphic, with a fist punching Obama. That would be roundly (and rightly) criticized.

    I’m sure an AP reporter will be doing an “analysis” of that site and how it might cause people to be stirred to be violent toward Palin … any decade now.

    L.N. Smithee (a0b21b)

  78. Thanks for the link, LN. I have to work now but I’ve bookmarked it to look at later.

    DRJ (c953ab)

  79. Dana–The Washington Post live chat with Robin Givhens, the fashion writer, had people complaining about Palin wearing pantihose and NOT wearing pantihose–one right after the other. Gotta love it.

    KateCoe (908d0e)

  80. Kate Coe, that would be the same Robn Givhens who gushed about how extraordinarily well Pelosi wears Armani. I’m ecstatic she does, too, because while she’s flushing America’s economy down the drain she can look stylishly chic.

    Next discussion re Palin’s legs: wax or razor. Because we deserve to know.

    Paging Sully!

    Dana (658c17)

  81. Excellent analysis. I’m an over-50 woman, and I grew up knowing that my success depended solely on my own desire and effort.

    I admire Sarah Palin. I don’t admire Katie Granju and her ilk, women who are still waiting for someone else to make it all right for them.

    MochaLite (2a44fe)


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