Patterico's Pontifications

Patterico,

I appreciate your blog and you seem a reasonable man.

But how in the heck do you they are terrorists?

And one more thing. I think you are good businessman and wish you the best but I believe you will lose some visitors when (if) the righties become irrelevant.

Anyways, peace and I’m glad that ugly incident I had here is over. And I defend my actions in defending myself.

jharp (2282bb) — 10/7/2008 @ 10:00 pm

But how in the heck do you they are terrorists?

How do you a sentence with no verbs?

Jim Treacher (592cb4) — 10/7/2008 @ 10:03 pm

But how in the heck do you (know) they are terrorists?

Fixed. Thank you.

jharp (2282bb) — 10/7/2008 @ 10:05 pm

Yes, jharpy, they were just peaceful little goat herders prior the warmongering bloodforoil Zionists taking office.

JD (f7900a) — 10/7/2008 @ 10:17 pm

How do you a sentence with no verbs?

Ha ha ha. Or should I say OL

MayBee (c0df75) — 10/7/2008 @ 10:19 pm

Patterico – You once had Phil all cornered and ready to put up illegal aliens in his house in order to make his open borders argument make sense. Since he’s all for getting rid of Guantanamo I’m sure it won’t take much persuading to convince him to take these poor citizens of the world into his humble abode.

For World Peace!!!!!

daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/7/2008 @ 10:25 pm

harptard – One clue, if it indeed might be considered a clue, is that we have been trying to get rid of these folks for several years and no other country will take them. Why would that be?

daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/7/2008 @ 10:28 pm

daleyrock: Because no one wants to piss off China?

Bob Loblaw (6d485c) — 10/7/2008 @ 10:50 pm

Bob – They take them and then somehow they wind up in China in a little while. How does that piss off the Chinese?

daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/7/2008 @ 10:55 pm

My suggestion: release these terrorists into Judge Ricardo Urbina’s living room.

An informed and well-thought out post, Pat. Again!

The government acknowledges that the Uighurs were imprisoned by mistake in 2002. Military officials determined in 2004 that they were not enemy combatants and should be released.

We know they’re “terrorists” because… they’re detainees! The fact that we jailed them proves that they did something for which they needed to be jailed!

The only people who disagree with your assessment are the raving terrorist-sympathizers in the DoD.

Another
perspective on how these guys got here:

Abdul Nassar is a Uyghur refugee from China. Abdul left his home to secure an education in Pakistan, where he studied for three years at a technical school. After hearing about Uyghurs living in a village near the Pakistani border in Afghanistan, Abdul traveled there to join his countrymen. When the village was bombed in October of 2001, Abdul and others from the village fled to the mountains. With the same misfortune of the 17 other Uyghurs from his village, Abdul was sold by the local Pakistani villagers to the U.S. military for a substantial bounty, and subsequently sent to the U.S. prison at Guantanamo. Because of the unsubstantiated accusations leveled against him by the United States, and the well-documented and brutal repression of the Chinese government against the Uyghur minority, Abdul is at risk for torture, abuse and persecution if returned to the custody of the Chinese government. Abdul has explicitly asked not to be returned to China or to a country subject to Chinese control or influence because of this very legitimate fear.

Ali Mohammed is a Chinese Uyghur, a Muslim minority from East Turkestan, the Uyghur homeland in far western China. Ali and other Uyghurs fled for safety from a Uyghur village in Afghanistan after the bombing campaign began, and were turned over to the United States by bounty-hunters. Five among them were classified as non-enemy combatants and, years later, released to Albania; seventeen remain in Guantanamo today. Ali himself was classified as a non-enemy combatant before being ordered to undergo a second Combatant Status Review Tribunal in an effort to secure “consistency” in outcomes.

Do you have any idea what the Chinese do to dissident minorities? Do you have any idea who these guys are? What they were, at any time, accused of doing? Who’s accusing them? On what basis the accusations are made?

Nope, no clue whatsoever. Me neither. But here’s the high-water mark of the allegations.

They lived in an area we bombed! They fled when we bombed it! Some may, or may not, have fired an AK while in Afghanistan! Later the Pakistanis, who could tell they were funny-looking, sold them to the US for money! Then they were locked away for years while we tried to figure out what we could come up with in the way of allegations in order to avoid the appearance that we just picked up anyone funny-looking sold to us by Pakistanis!
It’s an airtight case!

glasnost (a6ffe0) — 10/7/2008 @ 10:55 pm

Bob – A progressive rocket scientist like yourself should be able to figure this one out in no time!

daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/7/2008 @ 10:57 pm

Oh, I already think Glasnost OWNS this thread – there’s really nothing to add is there?

Bob Loblaw (6d485c) — 10/7/2008 @ 11:03 pm

glasnost – Take a breath. The post isn’t about their guilt. The post is about releasing them. Try reading before activating the patellar reflex.

daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/7/2008 @ 11:03 pm

Bob – glasnost is avoiding the topic of the thread the way he usually does to talk about something he wants to. Standard fare for him.

Think about this the same way as the Biden problem. He’s a useless buffoon. The Democrats did not want to give Biden any non-seniority based leadership positions but they couldn’t really ignore him since he’d been around so long. Baracky solved a big problem for them by adding him to his ticket. If Baracky wins, Joe drifts off into oblivion.

daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/7/2008 @ 11:08 pm

From the WaPo article linked at Hot Air:

In addition, U.S. law would deny the Uighurs entry because they trained at camps sponsored by the East Turkistan Islamic Movement, a group that the Bush administration designated a terrorist organization after the men were detained, the lawyers have argued.

Patterico (cc3b34) — 10/7/2008 @ 11:16 pm

I changed my mind. Release them into glasnost’s living room.

Patterico (cc3b34) — 10/7/2008 @ 11:18 pm

For some reason glasnost is under the impression that people here have never heard of the uighurs at Guantanamo before. glasnost continues to underwhelm as a commenter and needs some anger management classes.

daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/7/2008 @ 11:47 pm

glastnost: They were training with small arms (including AK-47s and RPGs), heavier weapons, and explosives. They were in camps with heavy military security. They were being indoctrinated in jihadist philosophy and tactics of terrorism. The camps were set up with Taliban approval.

These guys were radical Islamic terrorists. The best that can be said of them is that they probably would have rather attacked Chinese targets than American ones when they fled arrest in China (which I will stipulate would have been unpleasant, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t engaged in violent and illegal activities there).

Your post reminds me of the great musical number from West Side Story, “Gee, Officer Krupke.” They’re depraved because they’re deprived! (bonk!) Cause no one wants a kid what’s got a social disease! (bonk!)

Except these people would slit your throat, or mine, in our sleep because we’re decadent westerners who don’t share their religion and violent philosophy. (Well, I guess I really ought not speak for you. You might share their religion and violent philosophy, which would do you lots of good as you bled out through your severed throat.)

Beldar (8e2264) — 10/7/2008 @ 11:51 pm

Beldar – Those are very minor points, completely irrelevant to glasnost’s narrative.

ATTICA, ATTICA, ATTICA, ATTICA!!!!!!!!!

daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/7/2008 @ 11:57 pm

See why you take no prisoners during war!

I’m sure glad this particular environment did not exist during WWII as we would all know both Japanese and German as our normal language.

Send them to their homeland, what becomes of them is NOT our concern!

OR>>>>>> (evil smile).

The judge wants them in his court room at such and such time on such and such date, AIR DROP THEM!!

TC (0b9ca4) — 10/8/2008 @ 1:08 am

“Yes, jharpy, they were just peaceful little goat herders prior the warmongering bloodforoil Zionists taking office.”

anti-Zionist uighurs. Thats a new one.

“Bob – They take them and then somehow they wind up in China in a little while. How does that piss off the Chinese?”

That ends up us sending them to terrorists.

This ruling really shows the shortsightedness of this detention policy

imdw (7b46bb) — 10/8/2008 @ 5:07 am

This ruling really shows the shortsightedness of this detention policy

No, it shows the shortsightedness of Marbury v. Madison.

Just kidding (I think).

SteveMG (fa9e66) — 10/8/2008 @ 6:21 am

Comment by Beldar — 10/7/2008 @ 11:51 pm

That deserves an “oh, snap!”

“Oh, snap!”

CW Desiato (614aa7) — 10/8/2008 @ 6:26 am

The judge looked to the mother country and saw that they do this all the time in the UK. If it is good enough for the law lords, then it is good enough for him.

davod (bce08f) — 10/8/2008 @ 6:55 am

“The government acknowledges that the Uighurs were imprisoned by mistake in 2002. Military officials determined in 2004 that they were not enemy combatants and should be released.”

“These guys were radical Islamic terrorists.”

“In addition, U.S. law would deny the Uighurs entry because they trained at camps sponsored by the East Turkistan Islamic Movement, a group that the Bush administration designated a terrorist organization after the men were detained, the lawyers have argued.”

Comment by Patterico — 10/7/2008 @ 11:16 pm

Patterico,

the lawyers very well might “have argued” but military officials determined they were not enemy combatants and should be released.

You’re post was not thought out properly and you should correct it.

Especially coming from a lawyer.

jharp (2282bb) — 10/8/2008 @ 8:05 am

These detainees should be returned to their home country under the personal escort of District Court Judge Urbina.
If we’re lucky, the Chinese will take the Judge off of our problem list too.

AOracle (db2f44) — 10/8/2008 @ 9:15 am

This problem occurs because judges have absolute immunity. If a judge makes a ruling that is contrary to both the facts and the law then immunity should not apply. If on appeal, Judge Urbina’s ruling is found as such, he should be civilly and criminally responsible for any acts undertaken by the detainees while in the US. In the meantime, he should be impeached and removed from office for his actions in denying the stay. It will, of course, never happen.

Ken Hahn (6b4ba8) — 10/8/2008 @ 10:29 am

It would be really nice if any of you actually followed the arguments in the case.

“Opinions are like assholes: everybody’s got one”
The earth is flat and 6000 years old.
That’s my opinion.

Welcome to America

Pedant (82bcfd) — 10/8/2008 @ 10:44 am

During the Cold War the Uyghur are exactly the kinds of people the United States would have supported — at least during periods when China was on Russia’s side (prior to Nixon). They are an oppressed religious minority who happen to live in a very oil rich region of China. They are, in some ways, the equivalent to the Afghans in the 80s and that is an important distinction.

The fact is that the Uyghurs are going to look for help wherever they can find it. America isn’t going to give them help. Unlike Tibet, the Uyghurs don’t follow a pacifist religion so they are going to resist violently. This would naturally lead them to train with sympathetic organizations. The Taliban are sympathetic, at least when it comes to the fact that Uyghur are Muslim, and more than willing to provide training.

Beldar is wrong when he asserts that they are radical Islamic terrorists, but he is right when he states that they are being introduced to the philosophy of radical Islam and thus “becoming” radical Islamic terrorists.

These individuals were carefully chosen by defense attorneys, Patrick might want to think back on his conversation with Matt Scully in March regarding the careful selection of specific cases to create longer reaching case law, because the Uyghur are currently a group that Americans can empathize with. They are not yet at threat, they are a developing threat. A threat that is developing because we are unable — due to numerous philosophies of International Relations — to assist them in any meaningful way. That lack of assistance from the world’s most powerful military will lead to resentment. If the US doesn’t help them, then who? The answer is the Taliban and other radical terrorist organizations.

These individuals were not enemies of the US — yet — nor were their compatriots back home, but they will be and there is very little we can do about it. At least this is a foreseeable consequence of our normalized relations with China. It is something we can prepare for, but have no doubt that the choice of these individuals as the “Gitmo case” is targeted at finding the most sympathetic — at least for now — detainees.

Notice, I am not questioning that we have normalized relations with China, from a national interest perspective it is necessary. But we will engender enemies among those oppressed by the Chinese government.

Christian Lindke (6f6601) — 10/8/2008 @ 10:47 am

Pedant – Love the name. It would be really nice if you actually read the post. Do you know glasnost?

daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/8/2008 @ 10:56 am

But how in the heck do you they are terrorists?

Since China is their home, why not just send them to China?

Michael Ejercito (a757fd) — 10/8/2008 @ 10:58 am

Michael Ejercito,

I think the Uighurs oppose their return to China because they are dissidents and fear retaliation. MSNBC describes it this way:

“But the Uighurs cannot be sent back to China where they are considered terrorists and could be tortured, and the Bush administration says no country is willing to accept them. Albania accepted five Uighur detainees in 2006 but has since balked on taking others due partly to fears of repercussions with China.”

DRJ (c953ab) — 10/8/2008 @ 11:08 am

Fa Lun Gong are considered terrorists in China, as is Harry Wu. I’ve never heard of a Uighur attack on American interests.

Sad to see dissidents against the People’s Republic, who’ve committed no violence against us, excoriated on the right.

SSFC (8b0624) — 10/8/2008 @ 3:11 pm

“But the Uighurs cannot be sent back to China where they are considered terrorists and could be tortured, and the Bush administration says no country is willing to accept them. Albania accepted five Uighur detainees in 2006 but has since balked on taking others due partly to fears of repercussions with China.”

Where were they captured?

Just send them there then.

Michael Ejercito (a757fd) — 10/8/2008 @ 7:00 pm

Since they were captured in Afghanistan, they could be returned there, if the Karzai gov’t would accept them.
The probable outcome there would be that the would land in Khabul, be placed under arrest, and promptly deported to China.
There lies the problem.

Another Drew (db2f44) — 10/8/2008 @ 7:13 pm

Sad to see dissidents against the People’s Republic, who’ve committed no violence against us, excoriated on the right.

As Beldar noted upthread …

They were training with small arms (including AK-47s and RPGs), heavier weapons, and explosives. They were in camps with heavy military security. They were being indoctrinated in jihadist philosophy and tactics of terrorism. The camps were set up with Taliban approval.

These guys were radical Islamic terrorists. The best that can be said of them is that they probably would have rather attacked Chinese targets than American ones when they fled arrest in China (which I will stipulate would have been unpleasant, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t engaged in violent and illegal activities there).

JD (f7900a) — 10/8/2008 @ 7:36 pm

In addition, U.S. law would deny the Uighurs entry because they trained at camps sponsored by the East Turkistan Islamic Movement, a group that the Bush administration designated a terrorist organization after the men were detained, the lawyers have argued

Pat, you were an attorney, right? Thus, you should know the number and size of the holes in this statement, right? Why don’t you look at the
summaries of the actual government documents from the hearings?

They weren’t even Taliban, much less Al Quieda. The government-provided descriptions of their allegations are pathetic, almost completely indistinguishable from ordinary Afghans in that place (“X may have learned how to clean an AK. Y fetched supplies for a camp.. full of Uighurs”).

No one alledges they ever did, planned, or fantasized about anything related to Americans. We don’t have any evidence, or even allegations, even about anything they might have planned against the Chinese government, much less Chinese citizens.

The whole thing is a tragedy wrapped in a farce. If we *really* thought they were dangerous, in any way, we *would* have sent them back to China to be gutted like fish.

But we don’t. And what do you do? You continue to tear down the federal judiciary system for protecting basic human rights, in the name of a nonexistent security threat.

You want to know why I wouldn’t take one of those guys? Because anyone who shows them any mercy will be the next one on the government watch lists. Clap harder!

glasnost (a6ffe0) — 10/8/2008 @ 8:15 pm

Beldar, considering your descriptions fail to match the released government documents, I’m going to assume you’re pulling your lurid descriptions out of your… strong desire to manufacture enemies. Try linking to something, like a primary source document.

glasnost (a6ffe0) — 10/8/2008 @ 8:17 pm

Patterico – glasnost knows that they were peaceful goat herders, yet acknowledges that he would not take them in himself. He proved your point for you.

JD (f7900a) — 10/8/2008 @ 8:18 pm

10/7/2008

If You Think These Guys Are So Great, Judge, How’s About Putting Them Up in Your Own Damn House?

39 Responses to “If You Think These Guys Are So Great, Judge, How’s About Putting Them Up in Your Own Damn House?”

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