Patterico's Pontifications


The Vice Presidential Debate (Updated)

Filed under: 2008 Election — DRJ @ 3:33 pm

[Guest post by DRJ]

This is an open thread for tonight’s Vice Presidential debate at Washington University in St. Louis, MO. The debate begins at 9:00 PM EST and lasts for 90 minutes. It covers foreign and domestic policy.

Todd Zywicki of the Volokh Conspiracy has been interviewed by Gwen Ifill and finds her “eminently fair and well-prepared.”

Meanwhile, Jim Treacher offers a different perspective.

UPDATE: Don’t miss the official Iowahawk Ifill ethics investigation.


UPDATE BY PATTERICO: I am going to be on the radio with a bunch of left-leaning folks after the debate. It’s the “Mike Malloy” show, which is nationally syndicated. Details here, including a number you can call to ask questions. I’ll be in the belly of the beast, so I can use all the support I can get.

145 Responses to “The Vice Presidential Debate (Updated)”

  1. Here’s a recent list of reasons to vote Democrat as a warmup.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  2. Todd Zywicki probably was not viewed by Ifill as any sort of obstacle to The Age of Obama, either.

    Karl (1b4668)

  3. From the link to treacher:

    Senator, you’ve spoken at length. Could you please continue?

    While an easy question for Biden, the answer might not be so easy for the Dems. We can wish and pray for such an opportunity…

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  4. Has anyone seen this: Obama hires CAIR lawyer

    The only freedom of speech that Dhimmicrats care about is their own.

    Your freedom of speech is not allowed.

    ML (14488c)

  5. You guys crack me up, all McCain had to do was “Google” Gwen Ifil’s name prior to agreeing to her as moderator to know she had a book about Obama coming out.

    Do you really need to start making excuses for Palin this early?

    Sad and Pathetic.

    Oiram (983921)

  6. “Todd Zywicki of the Volokh Conspiracy has been interviewed by Gwen Ifill and finds her “eminently fair and well-prepared.”

    Unfortunately, this is of no comfort to me. Regardless of the source, it is not testimony, but mere speculation. These people on the Left are at war and will do anything to win. Duplicity is always a well sharpened weapon of the Left. That’s why we shouldn’t trust ’em! Any of ’em. Even with Zywicki’s “verification”.

    C. Norris (bddeba)

  7. Ifill’s failure to disclose her potential large financial windfall from an Obama win is obscene. Its the equivalent of a Superbowel referee forgetting to mention that he is also a Las Vegas bookie betting on the Superbowel.

    Perfect Sense (9d1b08)

  8. #7

    No Perfect Sense what’s obscene, is McCain’s camp doing the research on Ifil, knowing she had an incomplete book partially about Obama (not necessarily in favor of Obama), and then keeping that info in their back pockets to use in the likely event that Palin needed an excuse for debate gaff’s.

    Oiram (983921)

  9. Oiram – Wasn’t Ifill selected prior to McCain being nominated? Regardless, it is not McCain’s fault that journalists in general, and Ifill in particular, have no ethics.

    Treach – That is some seriously good stuff.

    JD (f7900a)

  10. (not necessarily in favor of Obama),

    Were you cackling with laughter when you typed that?

    See, as I susepcted. Oiram thinks it is McCain’s fault that Ifill has not ethics.

    JD (f7900a)

  11. How does a moderator really affect the performance of a Debater? The questions are usually asked to both debaters and equal time is given to both to answer. Does it really matter who is moderator?

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  12. JD, did McCain agree to this debate?

    It was common knowledge that Ifil was writing this book over a year ago.

    I know McCain is inept with computers which is fine, but his camp is not. They could of googled Ifil to know she was coming out with an Obama book.

    How else are intelligent people supposed to translate this absurdity?

    Either McCain is really stupid and didn’t know about Ifil’s book…….. or is really smart and using it at the last minute knowing Palin is not prepared.

    Oiram (983921)

  13. JD, did McCain agree to this debate?

    Yes. Ifill was named a moderator by the Commission prior to McCain’s nomination.

    Baracky also agreed to a series of townhall events, before he chucked those under the back of the bus.

    It was common knowledge? I am a political junkie, and had no idea, so I call BS on the common knowledge canard.

    I know McCain is inept with computers

    You trying to join jharpy on the list of people that make jokes about Down’s children and people that are physically disabled from actual torture?

    JD (f7900a)

  14. I’ve updated the post with the results of the Ifill “ethics investigation.”

    DRJ (c953ab)

  15. Oiram – The Commission on Debates announced the moderators on August 5, 2008. Did they do it with the input of the candidates? Do you know definitively know the answer to that question or are you just guessing?

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  16. Perfect example of taking out of context JD.

    Please learn something here.

    Oiram wrote on #12
    I know McCain is inept with computers which is fine

    JD writes that I said:

    I know McCain is inept with computers


    Oiram (983921)

  17. The questions are usually asked to both debaters and equal time is given to both to answer.


    Governor Palin, when did you stop shooting bears from an airplane ? When you learned it was illegal ?

    Senator Biden, when do you think Governor Palin stopped shooting bears from an airplane ? When she learned it was illegal ?

    Mike K (155601)

  18. #15 Daley, why wait till now to bring this up? And mind you I know it’s not McCain, come to think of it he said he had no problem with Ifil.

    It’s you people (McCain followers) that need to make pre-excuses for Palin.


    Tells me a lot.

    Obama 2008

    Oiram (983921)

  19. And I know what your thinking……… “What would Obama supporters say if the situation were in reverse?”

    Sure, a lot of us would be acting exactly like you, but enough of us would be saying Obama should of known that going in and suck it up………. which by the way McCain is doing.

    Oiram (983921)

  20. In a tough race, I think Ifill is the new favorite to win the “Most Corrupt Journalist – 2008″ award.

    Perfect Sense (9d1b08)

  21. #20 If she had been hiding this book, I might agree with you.

    But she wasn’t.

    Oiram (983921)

  22. So Oiram – You didn’t answer the question – Were the moderators announced with the approval of the campaigns? You were just guessing, right?

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  23. Yes, silly John McCain, counting on a mainstream journalist to be ethical. What was he thinking…

    ThomasD (211bbb)

  24. Columbia Journalism Review has posted their review of the ethics question re Ifill they seem to believe there is indeed a conflict.

    There appears, to us, to be a conflict in Ifill moderating tomorrow night’s vice presidential debate. Here’s why:

    – Ifill’s upcoming book is called “The Breakthrough: Politics and Race in the Age of Obama.” It, apparently, “surveys the American political landscape, shedding new light on the impact of Barack Obama’s stunning presidential campaign and introducing the emerging young African American politicians [like Newark Mayor Corey Booker and Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick] forging a bold new path to political power.”

    – The book apparently will be published on January 20th, 2009, Inauguration Day.

    – It stands to reason that a book with such a title would sell better if a certain person is inaugurated on that day.

    We’d like to hear from Ifill. We’re going to try to reach her now.

    We’ve also set aside several other related questions that are being raised in various places online, on cable, and elsewhere, including: why is this becoming a “thing” now, when Ifill’s book was reported on well before Ifill was selected as the moderator, and the McCain campaign might have raised this earlier if it bothered them? What about, say, CBS’s Bob Schieffer and his relationship to George W. Bush? Schieffer moderated a debate back in 2004. Etc. Much of that sounds like the usual political noise. But the financial part seems real. Gwen?

    Dana (973491)

  25. Maybe the McCain campaign had an expectation that the Commission might actually engage in some oversight…

    ThomasD (211bbb)

  26. #24 Hey look another pre-excuse for Palin gaff’s.

    Too funny.

    Oiram (983921)

  27. Oiram – Strategywise what you seem to be suggesting is that it is unfair to bring up Ofill’s conflict at the last minute since she didn’t bother to raise it herself. Fair enough. A better strategy might have been to wait until tomorrow and if Ifill was perceived to have been unfair then howl about her undisclosed conflict and how it affected the debate. Unfortunately, then the debate is over. It’s usually better to work the refs before or during a game.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  28. Oiram,

    It really doesn’t matter whether McCain made complaint or not about the ethics issue. Ifill is supposed to be a professional journalist. To say she she didn’t know there was a conflict speaks to her lack of knowledge and savvy regarding the ethics of her profession. To say that she did know and didn’t care or wouldn’t consider recusing herself from such a plum catch speaks to an even more serious lack of ethics.

    Dana (973491)

  29. Unlike Biden, who’s gaffes come so fast and furous they leave no room for excuse. Or reportage apparently…

    ThomasD (211bbb)

  30. That Obamatrons do not care whether the MSM acts ethically is not at all surprising, but again duly noted.

    Karl (1b4668)

  31. #22 they approved enough to agree to the debates didn’t they?

    McCain or Obama could of declined you know.

    Again, it’s not McCain. I respected his comments on this whole issue.

    Oiram (983921)

  32. Oiram,

    A simple Y/N question to you: Did Gwen Ifill act ethically in accepting the moderator gig?

    Karl (1b4668)

  33. No we care Karl.

    Liberal MSM………. what a lousy cop out.

    Go watch Fox.

    Oiram (983921)

  34. Obama should have requested for a change of moderator. (If that is possible). No matter how this turns out the news tomorrow will be how Biden and Ifil ganged up against Palin. How it was so unfair. Maybe it could win her some sympathy votes. Who knows, she might break down and cry. (Remember Hillary?). This could be a set up. It would have been better to pick a white moderator. Nobody will ever believe she was fair. No matter how she tries. Hope I am wrong.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  35. Oiram,

    If you care, then answer my question.

    Karl (1b4668)

  36. Oiram – I fail to see how the clause “which is fine” changes the substance of what you said.

    JD (5f0e11)

  37. #21 Oiram:
    Ifill had an absolute duty to disclose her conflict but she didn’t.
    Due to the conflict, an honest person would not have accepted the debate moderator position, but Ifill accepted the position.
    Once her conflict became public knowledge, an honest person would have withdrawn, but Ifill refused to withdraw.
    Ifill is certainly is a contender for the most corrupt “journalist” of 2008.

    Perfect Sense (9d1b08)

  38. Oiram, love2008…go to (this thread, scroll down to comment #102, and you’ll see how I’ve explained why this is a big deal, already. Please don’t make these tedious arguments again.

    Chris (95a123)

  39. Oiram – Even hyperpartisan Lovey sees the problem.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  40. Oiram seems to have fled for the moment. Can’t answer my question.

    Karl (1b4668)

  41. Sorry, love2008…I think I just lumped you in with Oiram on this subject, and I shouldn’t have, after reading your comment more carefully. My apologies.

    Chris (95a123)

  42. Oiram, when you come back, please respond to #24’s content, not your misconception of why I posted it, but the actual meat of the comment. And when you’re done, please respond to #28 and all the others that have questioned you. You are throwing around nothing but pat, trite, and frankly simple little zingers here and there but you have not given us your thought process and why you have reached your conclusion…(that the left is right, the right is wront). Give us something other than attempts at being clever.

    Dana (973491)

  43. #38
    Maybe you need to read my post well before referring me to your previous post. Read comment #34 and tell me your views. Like I said, the best thing would have been for Ifil to be replaced. Her position is already compromised. A lot is at stake. We don’t need people crying foul.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  44. love…check #41. Again, my apologies.

    Chris (95a123)

  45. Though, I must say, I’m not really sure what, exactly, would have been better about picking a white moderator. No one is claiming the race card here. We would have the same objections to Chris Matthews or Keith Olbermann.

    Chris (95a123)

  46. #44
    No. I apologise. Didn’t see your comment #41 when I sent that last comment.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  47. All is forgiven…for now. 😉

    Chris (95a123)

  48. Patterico – That certainly is the belly of the beast with that crowd. Has Brad dropped his obsession with prosecuting Ann Coulter for voting fraud yet? The few times I’ve visited his blog it has seemed like a pretty dishonest place.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  49. #47
    I suspect this uneasy peace won’t last………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. Alright. That’s enough.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  50. Eh…I try my absolute hardest to be civil in my disagreements. To co-opt a phrase, “Hate the ideology, not the person who holds it.”

    Chris (95a123)

  51. I don’t care when, how, or what it takes, but y’all simply MUST see the meltdown O’Reilly had when interviewing Barney Frank on his show tonight.

    He called Frank (shouted it, actually) a “coward” at least three times.

    Ed (385e88)

  52. Patterico – Do you think they will hang up on me if I call them twatwaffles?

    JD (f7900a)

  53. #50
    Good man! Hope others will follow your example. :)

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  54. Lovie – You should be the first to follow his example.

    JD (f7900a)

  55. Better Half just asked me if Biden is part Asian. She said that the facelift makes his eyes look Asian. I had never noticed that before. Pretty humorous.

    JD (f7900a)

  56. FWIW, DEMOCRAT Rep. Cynthia McKinney is bugfuck nuts. MDKP and David Petranos Esp kind of bugfuck krazy.

    JD (f7900a)

  57. #54
    You just couldn’t resist it, could you, JD?

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  58. Not since you called Stash, and I, liars. Nope, lovie, I could not resist.

    JD (f7900a)

  59. McCain or Obama could of declined you know.

    Again, it’s not McCain. I respected his comments on this whole issue.

    Comment by Oiram

    It’s “could have”, Oiram. Where did you go to school ? Alaska ?

    It is up to Palin now. She can revive the base tonight and they need it. We’ll see. The moderator is on notice about the questions and that should neutralize her bias. If not, everybody will be looking for it. She was under the radar until now.

    Mike K (155601)

  60. I have a feeling that this debate is actually going to be memorable.

    JD (f7900a)

  61. Ifill could stop all of the discussion about her perfidy by acknowledging her financial stake in Baracky’s success.

    JD (f7900a)

  62. It took less than 20 seconds for Biden to start lying.

    JD (f7900a)

  63. No personal disclosure by Ifill. Pure hackery.

    Ed (385e88)

  64. Biden is a brazen liar.

    JD (f7900a)

  65. So far, so good. Sarah’s off to a good start.

    Ropelight (1be620)

  66. The fundamental of the economy are strong LIE within 3 minutes …

    JD (f7900a)

  67. To love2008,

    We agree on the conclusion, not necessarily the reasoning. To expect the MSM to give any time to “Biden and Ifill ganging up on Palin” seems doubtful. Sometimes the counter-counter argument ends up true, but I prefer Occam’s razor, the simplest explanation that takes all things into account.

    Like I said, we agree that no matter what happens the situation invites speculation- even if Palin does well, then people could say Ifill was too easy on her because she didn’t want to appear biased, and on and on…

    Which is precisely why the professional journalist code of ethics says it is the journalist’s responsibility not only to avoid conflicts of interest but to avoid the appearance of conflict of interest. If you asked me two days ago if I respected Ifill I would have said yes, now I don’t. And this is not because I am convinced she will not be fair, but because I think in light of an obvious possible financial conflict of interest it should not have even been considered. For her to be tone deaf to the concerns and legitimize the race card as well is incredible in my opinion. As it is she is expecting us to believe that she is the epitome of virtue and would never be partisan. That itself is hubris and arrogance. I would not expect her to give me a pass if the situation was reversed.

    How can the moderator affect a debate? In addition to Mike K.’s post at #17, the moderator will determine who gets the last word before moving on, who is allowed to interfere how much with the other, etc. Of course, if it is obvious the moderator is always giving one candidate the last word, etc., it works the other way.

    But we already had a long thread on this, can’t we go on to something else (oh my, it’s on)!!

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  68. How dare you expect Ifill to disclose such an insignificant thing, JD – man, you’re a huge racist, you know that?

    Dmac (e639cc)

  69. Dmac – I am what I am.

    JD (f7900a)

  70. Palin is alright tonight.

    JD (f7900a)

  71. I gave up on Ifill after her first 6-months on WWIR.
    Today’s situation is no great surprise.

    AOracle (b0c998)

  72. Gov. Palin’s answer on the subprime mortgage crisis sucked.

    Make Biden show what deregulation caused the subprime mortgage lending crisis.

    JD (f7900a)

  73. #58
    I have mended fences with Stash. As for you, you called me “mendacious”. (Meaning, untruthful.) I just responded in kind.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  74. Biden – You previously said that it was patriotic to pay more taxes. Now you are going to cut taxes? You unpatriotic blowhard.

    JD (f7900a)

  75. I did not call you mendacious. I called you mendoucheous.

    JD (f7900a)

  76. Nice Legs on the Republican!!

    Frank Drackman (af2a6b)

  77. Why are you taking things out on the poor, Mayor Palin?

    It is fair to tax the holy hell out of successful people? Not only is it fair, it is patriotic. That 95% of the people will get a tax cut is pure unadulterated drivel.

    JD (f7900a)

  78. I know McCain is inept with computers which is fine, but his camp is not. They could of googled Ifil to know she was coming out with an Obama book.

    How else are intelligent people supposed to translate this absurdity

    Why would somebody google someone to see if they are coming out with a book if they didn’t already know about it? Why would anybody even think of that? Are you stupid?

    Gerald A (ebb8b5)

  79. Y’all tell me what you think is important. I have to tell you, Palin has missed a LOT of opportunities out of the box.

    Patterico (7bcb88)

  80. I’m sick to my stomach already. Ifill asks who is responsible about the subprime mortgage crisis, Palin avoids a political finger-pointing, only to let Biden get away with generalization blaming McCain that totally obfuscates the truth in this matter.

    The main problem with Obama’s candidacy is McCain doesn’t deserve to win the election. What the h___ is going on? Muzzle the pit bull even when she has the facts. It is enough to make a person think there is a shadow government controlling everything, or at least someone who has the power to black-mail.

    Pat, WLS, anybody (with sense), what is McCain doing??!!?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  81. MD – Amen. She should have savaged that political finger pointing.

    JD (f7900a)

  82. This is beyond………devastating!

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  83. So far she seems to be doing fine — the test for her right now is coherence, and she’s fine. In fact, she’s drawn Biden into one of his worst habits – he’s sounding “exasperated” with her answers and he’s being baited into some long-winded answers which is his MO just before saying something really stupid. And we’er only 20 minutes into the debate.

    Frankly, I can’t explain why the McCain camp is so reluctant to point fingers over the subprime mortgage crisis. The only reason I can think of is that their polling shows that while it might please the base, it drives independents and conservative leaning Dems away from them, and that the better strategy is just to remain calm, hope the immediate crisis passes, and economic anxiety eases. There is not disputing the fact that Obama and the Dems are greatly favored by voters on issues concerning the economy. McCain can’t turn that around in 5 weeks, so they have to hope it fades.

    WLS (26b1e5)

  84. Call Biden on that BS about the windfall profits tax !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    JD (f7900a)

  85. John McCain, do you hear me? Unless you are so dirty yourself that you can’t speak truth, it makes no sense what you are doing.

    Other than not being allowed to make the obvious winning points, she is looking much better than the clips. At least they listened to WLS on something.

    Jindahl-Palin in 2012.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  86. Exxon pays more in taxes that they make in profits. Call the liar on it.

    I am still fried that they refuse to stand up to the political rhetoric of Biden and Baracky on the subprime mortgage crisis.

    Baracky wrote a letter. McCain tried to pass legislation to fix it. Bankruptcy courts can readjust interest and principal rates ?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Fuck. These guys are dangerous.

    JD (f7900a)

  87. WLS-

    I see your point, but d___ the polls, he did on Iraq! If pointing out clear, obvious facts is not a winning strategy, then what the h___ is the point?

    I know to control my BP now.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  88. JD – they’re dangerous and the right are wusses trying to be nice. Enough already!

    Dana (973491)

  89. Baracky and Biden know the cause of global warming and it is man-made !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    JD (f7900a)

  90. Crying out loud, the temp has gone down as sunspots went down, and she’s following the line that Alaska sees the effects of climate change more than any other state!

    Trying to outspin your opponent on falsehood is not part of my idea of good public policy.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  91. Joe Biden freakin’ declared for the entire world that global warming exists, and they know that the cause is, without question, man-made.

    JD (f7900a)

  92. They both favor capping carbon emissions!!!

    McCain, can Palin drop McCain????

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  93. The Constitution calls for same sex marriage?!?!?!?!?!?!

    JD (f7900a)

  94. They do not support gay marriage but it is a Constitutional right ?!

    JD (f7900a)

  95. JD, if its FAIR then Joe believes. Everything must be FAIR! Heh.

    Dana (973491)

  96. Exactly what has Baracky been right on about the war? Name one fucking thing, Joey.

    Is it Pakistan, or Pockeeestawn?

    JD (f7900a)

  97. There is no Al-Quaeda in Iraq.

    JD (f7900a)

  98. Biden knows where Bin Laden lives. Why doesn’t he tell the military?

    JD (f7900a)

  99. Baracky said that he would sit down with them, without precondition. Biden just lied about it.

    JD (f7900a)

  100. Can’t believe Biden holds up his politicization of the judiciary process as a great change in worldview.

    eaglewingz08 (98291e)

  101. Someone who has more dedication than I do should go through and count how many times each candidate got the last word to a question. Seems like Biden got about 65% of them.

    Josh (f6ffef)

  102. You are doing well, Patterico. Do not let that twatwaffle from manbearpig get away with race-baiting.

    JD (f7900a)

  103. Mike Malloy? Hope you’re wearing your vest…

    Jim Treacher (671d28)

  104. I wonder how this will play out tomorrow.

    JD (f7900a)

  105. Treach – Are you listening to Patterico? That twatwaffle from manbearpig, Wheeler, and her cohorts are painful to listen to. Patterico – How do you manage to not just scream liar at them?

    JD (f7900a)

  106. Biggest mistake that Palin made: At the very beginning, when Biden started citing McCain’s vote for this and against that, she should have said, “You know, I haven’t spent the last few decades in Washington, so I can’t really speak to this proceedural vote or that amendment to this bill, but I want to talk about the principles that will guide a McCain/Palin Administration. . .” Instead, she gave Biden the opportunity to yammer on about various votes over the years. No doubt, much of what Biden claimed will be disputed by fact checkers (though, as we have seen, they won’t be particularly thorough), but he still gets to end the night looking like someone well versed on various votes.

    JVW (f93297)

  107. I’ve got XM, and I suppose I could listen to Malloy if I wanted to enjoy the schadenfreude. After Palin’s performance, I can imagine their dismay.

    Jim Treacher (671d28)

  108. Sorry, Patterico. No more bad words. I should have known that they would focus in on that.

    Brad – How about calling out Wheeler on her overt race-baiting? How about calling out them for putting people in blackface?

    I agree that Gov. Palin should have smacked down Biden when he started lying about the sub-prime mortgage issues, especially about McCain’s actual leadership on this issue, that Franks and Dodd struck down.

    JD (f7900a)

  109. Biden got to talk about himself a lot, which is always boring, but provides great opportunities to find contradictions in his stories about himself.

    I still don’t understand why McCain and Palin don’t hammer the Dems on responsibility for the financial crisis, especially with the bogus talking point about deregulation regurgitated by Biden, Wall Street contributions overwhelmingly directed to Dems, Johnson and Raines in Obama’s pocket, Obama in Fannie and Freddies’ pocket, and Clinton agreeing that the Dems are at fault.

    Seems like a no brainer.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  110. JD – I can’t seem to get the show through my computer. I’ve tried a few times.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  111. For the moment I don’t give a shit who wins the election. Bouncing CC Sabathia with a grand slam in 3.2 was gold. GO PHILLIES!! We now return to our standard partisan bitch fest hahaha.

    Jack "Victorino is God" Klompus (b0e238)

  112. Patterico – You are a better man than I. The overt race baiting from them is breath-taking. It would be easier for them to just scream RACIST at you and get it over with.


    JD (f7900a)

  113. daleyrocks – With the exception of Patterico, you are not missing anything. Picture any rant from manbearpig or HuffPo. Patterico is flying solo and more than holding his own.

    JD (f7900a)

  114. A triumph for Palin

    Mike K (155601)

  115. Excellent. He should ask them if any of them have actually read Dreams from my Father or whether they use it as a coffee table book. If they claim to have read it ask what they think of all Obama’s racist staements in it and how such a bigoted person can expect to be a uniter rather than a divider, like his preacher, Rev. Wright.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  116. The big risk for the Republicans was that Palin would reveal her lack of knowledge in a big way. That didn’t happen.

    The big risks for Democrats were two: that Palin would demonstrate a charisma shiny enough to swing the election. Or that Biden would say something surpassingly impolitic. Neither of these happened.

    My conclusion: Obama is still easily winning. There will not be a further Palin bounce.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  117. Wow, you guys are saying Palin won? I wonder if Olberman said she lost?

    Can’t we just cancel debates for the future and just have Robert Gibbs say the lefty won and Sean Hannity say the righty won?

    Palin versus Petraeus is shaping up to be an interesting 2012 primary.

    Oh, and both CBS and CNN are reporting their insta-polls show Biden won….

    Congrats to him since not one vote was changed in any direction

    Frank (8f04c0)

  118. There is no Al-Quaeda in Iraq.Comment by JD — 10/2/2008 @ 6:46 pm

    Lying idiot. Go to MNF-Iraq.

    There are no al Qaeda in Afghnaistan. Having gotten their asses wiped in Iraq they are now streaming into Pakistan.

    Terry Gain (aab754)

  119. Terry – I was quoting Biden. And laughing my ass off.

    JD (f7900a)

  120. Biden lost points with me saying climate change is exclusively man-made.

    Palin was unconvincing professing an abiding ‘tolerance’ for gay rights. Biden should have stipulated his opposition to same-sex marriage BEFORE he mentioned contracts, hospital visits and benefits.

    Thank God they both wore little flag pins.

    Gen. McKiernan (not ‘McClellan’) DID say an Iraq-style surge would not help in Afghanistan.

    I have no idea why she said the opposite.

    steve (c9a5b8)

  121. Terry @118 – You must be new. JD’s comment was sarcastic.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  122. “I have no idea why she said the opposite.”

    steve – She didn’t say the opposite. She said elements of the surge strategy, the change in counterinsurgency tactics could work in Afghanistan. The General did not contradict that if you read his words.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  123. steve – Here are Palin’s words on the subject:

    PALIN: Well, first, McClellan did not say definitively the surge principles would not work in Afghanistan. Certainly, accounting for different conditions in that different country and conditions are certainly different. We have NATO allies helping us for one and even the geographic differences are huge but the counterinsurgency principles could work in Afghanistan. McClellan didn’t say anything opposite of that. The counterinsurgency strategy going into Afghanistan, clearing, holding, rebuilding, the civil society and the infrastructure can work in Afghanistan. And those leaders who are over there, who have also been advising George Bush on this have not said anything different but that.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  124. No Biden gaffes, eh? How’s about when he offered up completely gratis that he’s been voting for/against nominees to the Supreme Court based upon IDEOLOGY from the time starting about 5 years after he was first elected to the Senate? Or is the truth ever a gaffe?

    J. Peden (565f97)

  125. I thought that his assertion that he and Baracky know that humans are the sole cause of global warming was kind of funny …

    JD (f7900a)

  126. Let’s differentiate tactic from strategy.

    McKiernan said he envisions a lengthy counterinsurgency commitment with an additional force level — not an Iraq-style surge.

    “Afghanistan is not Iraq. .. What I don’t think is needed — the word I don’t use in Afghanistan is the word surge.”

    I don’t know what she meant by “surge principles.”

    steve (c9a5b8)

  127. steve – Try reading her words.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  128. daley – Why would they do that when it is easier to argue against positions that have not been taken?

    JD (f7900a)

  129. The criticism of Afghanistan is that the NATO troops, with their overriding concern to avoid casualties to avoid domestic (Germany, Britain, France) criticism is that they are staying in large FOB facilities and not going out into the villages. The strategy that will win is to adopt the counter insurgency tactics used in Iraq. The surge is not the additional troops but to use the clear and hold tactics that could have won in Vietnam, that did win in Malaya, and is wining in Iraq. That is what needs to be done and is what Petraeus will introduce in Afghanistan. The rest is talk.

    Mike K (155601)


    BIDEN: Vice President Cheney has been the most dangerous vice president we’ve had probably in American history. The idea he doesn’t realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that’s the Executive Branch.

    Actually, he’s quite right. Undoubtedly Cheney doesn’t realize that Article I defines the role of the Vice President as being solely part of the Executive branch, because he’s a smart man and I’m sure he knows that Article I of the Constitution is about the Legislative branch. And what it says about the powers of the Vice President is that she is President of the Senate. It also allows for Congress to choose a president pro tem when the Veep is not present, strongly implying that if she is present, she is President of the Senate and has all the powers you would expect the President of a parliamentary body to have. And I for one am excited by the idea of Sarah Palin taking control of the Senate as soon as the oath of office is administered.

    Voice of Reason (ea3ea4)

  131. So, Biden does not know what Article 1 of the Constitution says? Prolly because Bu$Hitler already shredded the Constitution.

    JD (f7900a)

  132. Biden should have stipulated his opposition to same-sex marriage BEFORE he mentioned contracts, hospital visits and benefits.

    Funny how that worked, huh?

    Jim Treacher (671d28)

  133. This was like the 1960 debate with Palin pulling off a JFK. Make love to the camera baby. I’m not kidding; that’s where she kicked Biden’s butt.

    Making stupid faces doesn’t work Joe.

    She’s even better than McCain on TV.

    Alta Bob (e70400)

  134. No Biden gaffes? How about those elections in “the West Bank”?

    I think Palin knocked it out of the park. Biden was so desperate he invoked his dead family–ugh.
    She did miss a few opportunities for a KO, as MD in Philly says, but Ace’s prediction is that as soon as the bailout is safely passed, he is going to unload a nuclear strike on whose fault it all is–all the Friends of Obama. So they didn’t miss it, they’re lying in wait. I hope he’s right.

    Patricia (ee5c9d)

  135. How about those elections in “the West Bank”?

    Exactly Patricia – when Joe said that I thought to myself: Did he really just come out against democracy?

    Apogee (366e8b)

  136. I liked it at the end when she said something like “that was fun, lets do it again”

    Say it ain’t so Joe!

    SacTownMan (ae11ba)

  137. Oiram –
    You should be deeply, deeply ashamed.

    Not only did you attempt to mock someone who is not personally, physically able to use computers– although it’s well known that he works with his wife and others to access them– you then attack the first person who points out your boorish behavior.

    That is low, even for your usual behavior.

    Foxfier (15ac79)

  138. FWIW I think Palin did alright. That was a lot of pressure to be under and she didn’t choke. Good for her.

    I hope Ifill wasn’t hamstrung in asking more in depth follow up questions, though. Seems like she kept to the bare bones basics, with some questions right out of the Lehrer Ole Miss debate from last week) and let both pretty much go to their prepared answers.

    I thought Biden was v. good too. Very workman-like and to the point and on his best behavior.

    peter (e70d1c)

  139. I love how it’s not an issue at all (to some) that an Obama sycophant (it’s obvious to anyone who watches PBS) moderated the debate. Is Ifill more objective than Rush Limbaugh? A bit. Than Bill OReilly? Probably not.

    Love2008 and Oiram pretend that the democrats refused to debate eachother on FNC. They are the cowards here. Mccain and Palin are used to corruption and bias… from Gibson to Ifill, it’s nothing we aren’t already prepared for.

    And mark my words, the polls by the end of next week will show that Palin proved the bias to the country.

    Juan (4cdfb7)

  140. Damn, another facepalmable typo.

    Juan (4cdfb7)

  141. “Gen. McKiernan (not ‘McClellan’) DID say an Iraq-style surge would not help in Afghanistan.”

    But he wants four more brigades.

    davod (bce08f)

  142. Palin underlined McCain’s Friday debate theme that “the same strategy that he [Obama] condemned in Iraq. It’s going to have to be employed in Afghanistan.”

    I took Gen. McKiernan’s point to be that a counterinsurgency lasting much longer is a different tactic. He was emphatic that the two not be confused.

    Palin also said we were below pre-surge troop levels in Iraq.

    Is that the case?

    steve (c9a5b8)

  143. #138: Do you really think, after all that belly-aching over whether or not Gwen Ifill would be too biased, that her questions/choices objectively benefited Biden in some way? If so, how? I didn’t see it. (FWIW, I’m for Obama, but I thought Ifill should have been replaced for the sake of appearances. After the debate, I’m not convinced it objectively mattered.)

    Tom (1e141b)

  144. Well Tom, not one actual question on oil, or energy policy global warming is not an energy policy) or the Second Amendment, and education sure got glossed over pretty quick, even though Joey said he wanted to get back to it. Then there’s immigration reform…

    ThomasD (211bbb)

  145. Well Tom, not one actual question on oil, or energy policy (global warming is not an energy policy) or the Second Amendment, and education sure got glossed over pretty quick, even though Joey said he wanted to get back to it. Then there’s immigration reform…

    ThomasD (211bbb)

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