Patterico's Pontifications

9/30/2008

Hating Sarah Palin

Filed under: 2008 Election — DRJ @ 4:42 pm

[Guest post by DRJ]

Why do some women hate Sarah Palin?

That’s the subject of Mary Schmich’s article in last Sunday’s Chicago Tribune. Schmich concludes women hate Palin for any of several reasons: Her politics, especially on women’s issues. Her lack of credentials. Her fractured syntax. Her cockiness and the fact that, as a woman, she’s a rarity in national politics. Because she did not “earn” her place on the national stage.

Even if true, these are reasons to oppose Sarah Palin’s candidacy but not to hate her. But Schmich answers this question when she confides how she relates “to the betrayal, insult and worry the choice of Palin as John McCain’s running mate stirs in many women.”

Betrayal, insult, worry. These are the emotions of jealousy and envy. Schmich’s description of Palin depicts her as someone it would be easy to admire or envy, depending on your inclination:

“Palin is an ambitious, smart, energetic woman, who through work, luck, pluck and, yes, a ruthless streak common to politicians, has invented an uncommonly full life.”

In other words, Palin has what many women want.

That alone might make some women jealous but I suspect what is most galling is that Palin has accomplished all this without embracing the politically correct, feminist pro-choice/nanny/single woman lifestyle. Palin is living proof that there is more than one path to marriage, motherhood, and a successful career. That must be a disheartening concept to those who view liberal feminism as the best path for women to achieve success.

So, no matter how Palin does Thursday night at the Vice Presidential debate, don’t expect liberal women to stop their crusade anytime soon.

– DRJ

213 Responses to “Hating Sarah Palin”

  1. I suspect what is most galling is that Palin has accomplished all this without embracing the politically correct, feminist pro-choice/nanny/single woman lifestyle.

    Or, better yet, done so without riding her husband’s coattails (a la Hillary Clinton), her family’s political machine (Nancy Pelosi, Kathleen Kennedy Townesend), or vast family wealth (Jane Harman, Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein). Of course they hate her. She stands in stark contrast to their patronizing assurances that women can’t make it in politics without being connected or rich.

    JVW (dd171a)

  2. She’s dangerously petty and ignorant of the sorts of things we consider important to run this country. Thats why people are apoplectic. Why her unfavorables are so much higher than her favorables. Why Tina Fey can use actual lines from Palin interviews and it works as a skit.

    “In other words, Palin has what many women want.”

    Also, they get their intentions analyzed and simplified by people that can’t see the obvious. That also makes people go ape.

    imdw (0b3979)

  3. Wow. Mary Schmich is not only slow on the draw being about a month late in disecting women’s dislike of Palin but she’s also dishonest about it.

    Most of us already observed that Palin inspired bitter envy and jealousy in the feminists. Its got far less to do with her cockiness, fractured syntax, or lack of earning her position (would that also include every governor who has been selected as a veep?) and far more to do with the fact that their dogma requires them to hate her – for they cannot support an independent woman thinking for herself. Their gimmick has never been about independence and choice for women. Ever. And they expose their own hypocrisy every time they utter a new rant. An excruciatingly obvious group.

    No doubt if Palin were not attractive, fertile, dumpy, less feminine and wore some sensible shoes, she’d be facing far less of this bitch blasting.

    Feminists – setting women back like to others can.

    Dana (437bb2)

  4. “far more to do with the fact that their dogma requires them to hate her – for they cannot support an independent woman thinking for herself.”

    Their ‘dogma’ requires that they dislike her because she believes in policies which are the opposite of that dogma: to victims and prosecution of sexual violence and reproductive choice.

    imdw (8098e7)

  5. that should be ‘aid to victims’

    imdw (8098e7)

  6. Perhaps there’s no such thing as a “safe” abortion.

    Terry Gain (aab754)

  7. The most valuable (and hiliarious) thing about this…hate and venom…from leftist, bitter woman is that it’s on full display. I guarantee that it’s appalling and disturbing to many, many, MANY women and men who generally don’t give a thought to the hypocrisy of the “feminist” movement…truly, they previously didn’t give these harpies a second thought. But now they do.

    Catherine (af7191)

  8. There’s a lot that could be said about Palin’s unfitness for high office, and in order to keep this brief, I’m not going to recap here. Their relevance underlines a more basic point: that Palin’s choice was part political cynicism, part affirmative action and part forced on McCain by the shadowy right-wing forces lurking behind him. Put these three things together, and you are going to get a lot of animus.

    Women in particular hate the idea typically put about by conservative men that affirmative action is some sort of conspiracy amongst the susterhood to edge out better qualified men, so when McCain is seen as appointing the pin up girl for what is wrong with affirmative action — someone guranteed to embarrass anyone with a brain but especially women, it’s little wonder that we see this as a slap in the face. The idea underlying it — that because she shares our plumbing we will forget that she knows little and understands even less, that she wants to use her rise to reverse Roe v Wade — is simply insulting, but exactly what people who believe affirmative action is simply pandering assume. Yes they are saying, this will work because women are either stupid, or unprincipled, or both, which is why a stupid and unprincipled woman will work as VP. This is what you liberals have wanted. Enjoy!

    It’s hard to imagine a more profoundly insulting piece of gesture politics. I don’t *hate* Sarah Palin, but I have utter contempt for the political context which put her there.

    Fran Barlow (e2539a)

  9. imdw, I think you are flat-out wrong on the idea that Gov. Palin’s “unfavorables are so much higher than her favorables,” though that is no doubt the latest Dem talking point you have been given. It may be true that the Daily Kos commissioned a poll where her favorable/unfavorable rating was just about even, but the most recent CBS News & NY Times poll I found shows her at 40% approve, 30% disapprove. Not like CBS and the NYT are two organizations that are traditionally supportive of Republicans either. May I ask you where you are seeing these unusual polling results to which you are referring?

    JVW (dd171a)

  10. Guilt and envy are very strong emotions. The kind of emotions that engender hate for someone who has lived a good and productive life and done them no harm.

    Terry Gain (aab754)

  11. Some hate her because a handsome, vital man likes her enough to have had five children with her.
    Some hate her because she’s not a flacid, Oprah-watching couch potato.
    Some hate her because she chose not to abort her baby.
    Some hate her because she is prettier than they are.
    Some hate her because she is smarter than they are.

    But I imagine that most hate her because Barack Obama is more of a “girl” than she is.

    nk (5335a4)

  12. “I don’t *hate* Sarah Palin, but I have utter contempt for the political context which put her there.”

    Exactly! It’s the Palin pick that’s hated, not Palin. Palin herself some people feel sorry for, others allow her enough agency and smarts to have known better, and offer no sympathy.

    imdw (4fe3dc)

  13. Fran Barlow (comment 8 @ 5:07), it never ceases to amaze me how liberal women feel entitled to speak on behalf all women. If you read DRJ’s post here, that is largely the point she is making. Liberal women were suddenly shocked to discover that there are women — millions of them — who don’t buy into their stale Baby Boomer politics. And to refer to Governor Palin as “stupid and unprincipled” says a lot more about you than it does about her.

    JVW (dd171a)

  14. In other words, Palin has what many women want.

    Except for the whole pro-woman policy thing, that is. That’s kind of important (at least to liberals. I can’t speak for conservatives, although your post seems to suggest that her status as woman is more important than, say, she thinks the government should compel woman to have the children of their rapists)

    jpe (bd88bc)

  15. I think there is a lack of honesty in admitting that the bottom line which foments the loathing of Sarah Palin is, at the end of the day, the outraged sense of betrayal women feel because she is pro-life. If she were pro-choice or pro-abortion, there would be far less hand wringing and bitch slapping. And that’s the ironic thing – we have a woman here who has made a decision to support the rights of unborn women everywhere and she is loathed for that.

    Honesty is in short supply from women on the left. I would have far greater respect if they were straight up in this. It makes them look weak…which is what we really need, women appearing weak. Meh.

    Dana (437bb2)

  16. “it never ceases to amaze me how liberal women feel entitled to speak on behalf all women. ”

    Or how some bloggers feel entitled to speak of, well, the wants of women. Please stop being amazed. It won’t stop.

    imdw (1e4520)

  17. Try again, jpe.

    DRJ (c953ab)

  18. “There’s a lot that could be said about Palin’s unfitness for high office”…blah blah blah,

    Despite her innumerable shorcomings Palin, unlike Obama, has not proposed that oil rich Iraq be conceded to al Qaeda and Iran. And, unlike Biden, Palin has not proposed that Iraq be partitioned against the will of the vast majority of Iraqis-which would plunged Iraq into a full scale civil war.

    The off the cuff mistatements of Palin are trifles compared with the well considered insanities of Obama and Biden.

    Palin is eminently more qualified than either of the Democrat nominees.

    Case closed.

    Terry Gain (aab754)

  19. imdw:

    Or how some bloggers feel entitled to speak of, well, the wants of women.

    Imagine that!

    DRJ (c953ab)

  20. I frankly think that a lot of people see an (R) after any politician’s name and it sends them into seizures. Identity politics have given the D’s the belief that certain people belong in their camp based exactly on their plumbing or their melanin content period.
    I’ve mentioned before that I worked with a nauseating lefty white man who called J.C. Watts “THAT Uncle Tom.” What possesses someone to believe that they have license to deride someone in the opposite camp politically with such gutter level, race based vitriol and yet maintain their progressive cred?
    And beneath the surface of the contest to show “more contempt than thou” toward Palin (I guess the bumperstickers are being printed as we speak) there is the adulation for the character at the TOP of the “D” ticket. I’ve never really felt that his credentials merit the sycophantic adoration from his odd lot of followers but I don’t think he merits seething, ugly, personal attacks.

    Jack Klompus (b0e238)

  21. The feminist movement was exposed as the joke it has become during the Clinton administration.

    Those arguing that this group of ‘feminist’ phonies possess any integrity at all have even less integrity themselves.

    They support the left. Everything else is unimportant. Just remember that anything leftists ‘believe’ is the result of backwards rationalization. The evidence stands out on these threads, as the lefties continue to contradict themselves time and again in order to justify supporting fellow leftists and their causes.

    Apogee (186a12)

  22. I agree, Dana. They might oppose her candidacy but liberal women wouldn’t hate her if she were pro-choice.

    DRJ (c953ab)

  23. Or how some bloggers feel entitled to speak of, well, the wants of women.

    Well, DRJ is a woman and she has been guest posting her for years, so yeah, I’ll trust that she can speak to “the wants of women.” What’s your excuse for barging in her quoting fake polls in a lame attempt to trash a smart, attractive, honest, and decent woman?

    JVW (dd171a)

  24. From Palin today on Hugh Hewitt’s show,

    HH: Governor, let’s turn to a couple of issues that the MSM’s not going to pick up. You’re pro-life, and how much of the virulent opposition to you on the left do you attribute to your pro-life position, and maybe even to the birth of, your decision, your and Todd’s decision to have Trig?

    SP: Yeah, you know, I think that that’s been probably the most hurtful and nonsensical slap that we’ve been taking is our position that we have taken, pro-life, me personally, and saying that you know, even though I knew that 13 weeks along that Trig would be born with Down Syndrome, and I said you know, he’s still going to be a most precious ingredient in this sometimes messed-up world that we live in. I know that my son is going to provide a lot of hope and a lot of promise in this world, and I’m so thankful of course that I’ve had the opportunity to give him life and to bring him into this world. But I think yeah truly, that that’s been a hurtful slap that we have taken, because people just don’t understand. Ironic too, Hugh, that some would consider my position on life and trying to usher in a culture of life, respecting the sanctity of life in America, that that is seen as an extreme position when to me, an extreme position is one that Barack Obama took when he was in the Illinois State Senate, not even supporting a measure that would ban partial birth abortion, not even supporting a measure that would during, after a botched abortion and that baby’s born alive, allowing medical care to cease and allowing that baby to die. That to me is extreme. That’s so far, far left it’s certainly out of the mainstream of America. To me, that is the extreme position, not my position of just wanting that culture of life to be respected, and not wanting government to sanction the idea of ending life.

    This is what makes the feminists writhe.

    Dana (437bb2)

  25. “Palin is eminently more qualified than either of the Democrat nominees. ”

    why we can just ask her what she has to say about that:

    http://interviewpalin.com/

    imdw (688568)

  26. “the lefties continue to contradict themselves time and again in order to justify supporting fellow leftists and their causes.”
    Naomi Wolf’s recent apologia for the second class status of women in Islamic societies is a glaring example of the twisted logic used to maintain what comes first and foremost – lockstep, ideological conformity.

    Jack Klompus (b0e238)

  27. The reality is that there are always a lot of people whose political identity is oriented around emotion – hating the “other” is more important that actually having a coherent ideology. Unfortunately, the Democrats have been peaking in the amount of such people in the last decade or so.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  28. Those who don’t appreciate the benefits of the defeat of al Qaeda in Iraq as compared with the disastrous consequences of conceding Iraq to them have their heads in the sand- the very behavior that led to 9/11.

    Those who are unprepared to fight small wars will end up fighting big ones.

    Terry Gain (aab754)

  29. “Well, DRJ is a woman and she has been guest posting her for years, so yeah, I’ll trust that she can speak to “the wants of women.””

    Liberal women speaking for women, bad. One blogger who’s blogged for years? trust. I see.

    imdw (688568)

  30. “hating the “other” is more important that actually having a coherent ideology.”
    And expressing platitudes for general concepts which allows one to sound like they are a true humanitarian while excusing them from getting their hands dirty in the often not-nice sty of reality. How hard is it to repeatedly say you are “against war?” How amazing is someone who is able to claim that they are “for the Earth?” Well gee give yourself a freaking medal. I’ve met more former liberals after they decided to become teachers in the Philadelphia public school system and have their entire Stand-and-Deliver worldview demolished before the first semester was over!

    Jack Klompus (b0e238)

  31. imdw,

    You don’t have to agree with me and I don’t know what all women think, any more than I know what all men think or all people think.

    But, for the record, I said “Palin has what many women want.” Not all women, many women — and I think that’s true. We’ve been raised to “want it all.”

    DRJ (c953ab)

  32. Jack Klompus – Naomi Wolf? Is that the same brave, brave person who waited until Milton Friedman has passed away to challenge him? (and to ridiculous results, I might add)

    Terry – Those who are unprepared to fight small wars will end up fighting big ones.
    Wrong. Those same people never fight for anything. Those cowards leave the fighting to others.

    Apogee (186a12)

  33. Thanks DRJ (comment 31, 5:34) for showing imdw the light. I guess my comment should have been more clear on that part.

    imdw, contrast DRJ’s use of “many women” with the phrasing that Fran Barlow (comment 8, 5:07) used: “Women in particular hate the idea. . .” and “. . . guranteed to embarrass anyone with a brain but especially women. . .” It should be pretty clear that Fran Barlow seems to think she can speak on behalf of all women, when the reality is that she only represents the left-wing ideologues.

    JVW (dd171a)

  34. I keep hearing it was a “cynical” choice by McCain, a “diversity” pick per Heather MacDonald. I felt that way when people in my party were touting Condoleeza Rice as a diversity two-fer, yet who has never been elected to anything and whose political philosophy is murky at best.

    But Palin has neither of those problems. She’s been in the trenches of state and local politics, we know what she believes, and she can get up to speed to be president (providing McCain lives a few months in office).

    cassandra (dfb4b3)

  35. and she can get up to speed to be president (providing McCain lives a few months in office).

    And what if he doesn’t? Even you acknowledge she isn’t quite ready yet.

    As for the article I thought the writer did a pretty good job of capturing some of the opinions out there.

    voiceofreason2 (9ee102)

  36. So, Fran ought to have said ‘many women in particular.’ Something she would have learned with many years of guest blogger experience?

    I got that she’s speaking of the palin haters, not all women, just the ‘many’ that dislike the palin pick. But I see your point.

    imdw (3cd17c)

  37. Their ‘dogma’ requires that they dislike her because she believes in policies which are the opposite of that dogma: to victims and prosecution of sexual violence and reproductive choice.

    Comment by imdw — 9/30/2008 @ 5:01 pm

    Reproductive choice and abortion are not the same things in her and many others eyes. She is entitled to her opinion that killing a living fetus is wrong. She doesn’t, to my knowledge, oppose birth control. It absolutely amazes me that liberals oppose the execution of homicidal child rapists and cop killers but disdain someone who chooses to give a Down Syndrome child life.

    Bfidler (e6db0a)

  38. Fran Barlow, stop stereotyping us! For crying out loud, isn’t that what women fought long and hard against???

    Dana (437bb2)

  39. Geraldine Ferraro has spoken forcibly (and no doubt accurately) on Obama as a “diversity” pick.

    JVW (dd171a)

  40. I wonder if Mrs. Palin doesn’t freak out the feminists of Left because of all the abortions they’ve had. 40 million children have been aborted in the last 30 years–clearly someone must have aborted them.

    When Mrs. Palin is honored and loved for not having killed her child, she throws into high relief the immorality of those who have chosen to murder their own.

    qwfwq (849caa)

  41. “It absolutely amazes me that liberals oppose the execution of homicidal child rapists and cop killers but disdain someone who chooses to give a Down Syndrome child life.”

    She’s not disdained for her choice. She’s disdained for wanting to take way that same choice, that privacy, from others. Normally that wouldn’t matter, that she wanted that, but if she’s president, or VP, it does.

    imdw (513533)

  42. Not many VPs in history have been “ready” to be president. She is rather a throwback to the days when VPs were pick for reasons other than purely an understudy role.

    But then I see McCain as a tough old bastard and don’t see him expiring anytime soon. If you think anyone his age is necessarily at death’s door then I guess you would have a problem with Palin. I knew an old retired officer who was always getting that stuff cut off his scalp and he lived to 87.

    cassandra (dfb4b3)

  43. Obots hate Palin because O told them so. Isn’t that enough?

    Bel Aire (e59286)

  44. imdw – You should be able to show us evidence where Sarah Palin has taken affirmative steps to take said choice away from the citizens of Alaska.

    JD (f7900a)

  45. Hugh Hewitt talked with Governor Palin earlier today. Media was a good topic.

    HH: Now Governor, the Gibson and the Couric interview struck many as sort of pop quizzes designed to embarrass you as opposed to interviews. Do you share that opinion?

    SP: Well, I have a degree in journalism also, so it surprises me that so much has changed since I received my education in journalistic ethics all those years ago. But I’m not going to pick a fight with those who buy ink by the barrelful. I’m going to take those shots and those pop quizzes and just say that’s okay, those are good testing grounds. And they can continue on in that mode. That’s good. That makes somebody work even harder. It makes somebody be even clearer and more articulate in their positions. So really I don’t fight it. I invite it.

    HH: Have you followed the attacks on you, say, via Drudge or the blogs? Some of them are just made up and out of left field, others are just mocking. Do you follow those?

    more….

    Vermont Neighbor (a066ed)

  46. “imdw – You should be able to show us evidence where Sarah Palin has taken affirmative steps to take said choice away from the citizens of Alaska.”

    ok.

    here you go:

    http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/09/15/bess/index1.html

    “In 1996, evangelical churches mounted a vigorous campaign to take over the local hospital’s community board and ban abortion from the valley. When they succeeded, Bess and Dr. Susan Lemagie, a Palmer OB-GYN, fought back, filing suit on behalf of a local woman who had been forced to travel to Seattle for an abortion. The case was finally decided by the Alaska Supreme Court, which ruled that the hospital must provide valley women with the abortion option.

    At one point during the hospital battle, passions ran so hot that local antiabortion activists organized a boisterous picket line outside Dr. Lemagie’s office, in an unassuming professional building across from Palmer’s Little League field. According to Bess and another community activist, among the protesters trying to disrupt the physician’s practice that day was Sarah Palin. ”

    There’s also her statements. You’ve heard of those right? About abortion in the case of rape and incest? What do you think of those?

    But apparently I’m being asked to believe that she’s not pro-life? Now its my turn: what do you think, do you think her policies would be pro-choice or pro-life?

    imdw (3cd17c)

  47. Pure BS, imdw. I asked if you could show where Governor Palin has taken affirmative steps to eliminate this precious choice for women. The best you have is that she participated in a fuckin’ protest 12 years ago? I know she is pro-life. That is not at question. What actions in her record show where she has taken steps to eliminate choice? I mean, she is the freakin’ Governor. Surely there is some record of her forcing little Eskimo girls to have children of their rapists. Surely you can provide evidence that she wants to jail people that have abortions.

    I think the policies of the Vice-President are unimportant to the point of being irrelevant. algore was pro-choice, then pro-life, then pro-choice, and yet there is nothing that I can find in his 8 years as VP that suggests that the VP has any scintilla of influence over said political issues.

    JD (f7900a)

  48. Barry really doesn’t have such stealth judgement. He let a rookie shake him bad, make him nervous for days. He steered his entire campaign against a VP choice, for God’s sake.

    Imagine him trembling at a big brass pair with a foreign accent. Above his pay grade, for sure.

    Vermont Neighbor (a066ed)

  49. ^ Not that he wouldn’t try to trade the U S of A in a poker game first. Remember, those guys like him.

    Vermont Neighbor (a066ed)

  50. Women hate Palin because she has merely gotten by on her cuteness in public life and her views are extremely nutty-Christian and anti-woman. She is anti-choice and most women are pro-choice. She is idiotic and an embarrassment as a public figure, regardless of her genitalia. Women would hate her if she was a man.

    joojooluv (827063)

  51. 48. You’re referring to someone as “idiotic?”

    Jack Klompus (b0e238)

  52. #42,
    Since 1950 I would say that Agnew, Quayle and Gore were probably the least ready with Quayle at the top.
    I worry primarily because of the nuclear weapons and national defense angle. It is not a matter of worrying whether she could push the button — it is the lack of heavy experience with international affairs. I think this is a reasonable concern.
    Not nearly as concerned about the executive and managerial capabilities. She is ready in those areas.

    voiceofreason2 (c7511b)

  53. “I asked if you could show where Governor Palin has taken affirmative steps to eliminate this precious choice for women. ”

    You said “sarah palin.” Not “governor palin.” I answered. She’s pro-life and has said so, has said that she favors forcing women to bear the children of their rapists and from incest. Thats enough for me, no matter how much she hasn’t changed abortion policy in a republican state. You think her views on abortion are irrelevant to her role? Fine. I won’t argue with you on how view her role in a McCain adminstration.

    “HH: Now Governor, the Gibson and the Couric interview struck many as sort of pop quizzes designed to embarrass you as opposed to interviews. Do you share that opinion? ”

    Here’s another Couric Pop quiz:

    COURIC: And when it comes to establishing your world view, I was curious, what newspapers and magazines did you regularly read, before you were tapped for this, to stay informed and to understand the world?

    PALIN: I’ve read most of them again with a great appreciation for the press for the media, I mean…

    COURIC: Like what ones specifically? I’m curious that you…

    PALIN: Um, all of ‘em, any of ‘em that um have been in front of me over all these years, um…

    COURIC: Can you name any of them?

    PALIN: I have a vast variety of sources where we get our news too. Alaska isn’t a foreign country where it’s kind of suggested it seems like, wow how could you keep in touch with what the rest of Washington, DC may be thinking and doing, when you live up there in Alaska. Believe me, Alaska is like a microcosm of America.

    Spoken like a journalism major.

    imdw (1d0ada)

  54. Leftist women hate Palin for obvious reasons. She is everything they are not. She has gotten by on merit. She is not animated by an instinctive hatred of men, and she is also fit, intelligent and attractive(as opposed to the average “feminist” who tends to be fat, stupid, ugly and disagreeable.)

    Its the same reason Federal Plantation Negroes despise Clarence Thomas. He is everything they are not.

    Scum hate virtue.

    ccoffer (427502)

  55. imdw, Just vote for Barry. He speaks like a news anchor AND a soap opera villain.

    VOTE NO for Obama-Rezko ’08

    Vermont Neighbor (a066ed)

  56. imdw, it was a stupid question that Palin avoiding answering with a silly list of publications. A list that would then have been the subject of yet more silly comments by you.

    I find it puzzling that you think that Katie Couric’s brazen and infantile “gotcha” style partisan interview actually undermines Palin.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  57. SPQR – imdw/Bob is exactly the audience Couric was shooting for.

    JD (f7900a)

  58. She’s disdained for wanting to take [a]way that same choice, that privacy, from others.

    Bologna. You cannot point to a single instance where she has used her office to impose her personal beliefs upon others.

    You hate her because she stands in the way of you imposing your beliefs on others.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  59. If Palin had answered that stupid gotcha question with “I read The Economist every week,” Couric would have followed it up with “Oh yeah? Who’s your favorite writer from there?” and continue ad nauseam. Is Barry-O made to answer Jeopardy! style questions to flaunt his intellectual cred? How about someone ask him what were the last three compelling books he’s read on politics, economics, or history? Wouldn’t that be just as fair? But no it’s take a priori that Obama is a tower of intellect. Oh yeah and HE happens to be the One running for President.

    Jack Klompus (b0e238)

  60. VOR2 – It is not a matter of worrying whether she could push the button — it is the lack of heavy experience with international affairs. I think this is a reasonable concern.
    Not nearly as concerned about the executive and managerial capabilities. She is ready in those areas.

    It’s good to see you do not support Obama.

    JD – Pure BS, imdw. Agreed. imdw is worried that McCain/Palin will win the election and then McCain will die (despite having a 96 year old mother) and Palin will ascend the Presidency. Furthermore, several SCOTUS justices will die or retire during this time, and she’ll be able to replace them with justices that will pass confirmation, ascribe to her beliefs, accept a challenge to Roe v Wade, and overturn it (again bringing up Scalia’s writings to the opposite, as well as the history of justices’ counter performace over the last century).

    Apparently, imdw also believes in aliens and that the lottery is a good investment.

    Apogee (186a12)

  61. How interesting…Couric asking Palin if she’s a feminist,

    “I do,” Palin said. “I’m a feminist who, uh, believes in equal rights and I believe that women certainly today have every opportunity that a man has to succeed, and to try to do it all, anyway. And I’m very, very thankful that I’ve been brought up in a family where gender hasn’t been an issue. You know, I’ve been expected to do everything growing up that the boys were doing. We were out chopping wood and you’re out hunting and fishing and filling our freezer with good wild Alaskan game to feed our family. So it kinda started with that.”

    So why would any good feminist support this woman? Oh yeah. She prefers to save innocent lives rather than take them.

    Dana (437bb2)

  62. I find it hard to respect the opinions of a person who holds such dogmatic religious views on “the right” to end the life of an completely innocent human being. That’s your deal-breaker?? Assuming, of course, you ever had it in you to vote for John McCain and you probably haven’t, which makes your whole tirade against Governor Palin completely moot.

    I mean, really, here we have a candidate for president who has said that how he runs his campaign is a good indicator of how he will run the highest Executive Office.

    Great, so we can expect Saul Alinsky-style propaganda, intentional abuse of the system so as to break it and bring about the end of capitalism (ie ACORN, Freddie/Fannie), thuggish flash-mob mentality to shut down the voices of people who are doing investigative reporting on him, scrubbing of history and the people surrounding him just like Stalin did.

    And your biggest concern is retaining the right to pay a doctor to suck out your unwanted fetus with a vacuum because you drank too much tequila 6 weeks ago and skipped your period.

    Just wow.

    w3bgrrl (5b8906)

  63. If Palin had answered that stupid gotcha question with “I read The Economist every week,”

    I don’t think that’s a hypothetical scenario we really have to worry about.

    jpe (bd88bc)

  64. While all the focus is on the SECOND in line to the Presidency, I noticed who the THIRD in line is, and wouldja just look at who used to be third.

    The current President pro tempore of the Senate is Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia). He replaced Ted Stevens (R-Alaska), who held the office from January 3, 2003 to January 4, 2007.

    If I had my cartoon voice working, I’d yell yikes!

    allan (d16016)

  65. Argh. Should be…

    So why would any good feminist not support this woman? Oh yeah. She prefers to save innocent lives rather than take them.

    Dana (437bb2)

  66. “imdw, it was a stupid question that Palin avoiding answering with a silly list of publications. A list that would then have been the subject of yet more silly comments by you.”

    So instead we get “all of them.” Great work.

    “I find it puzzling that you think that Katie Couric’s brazen and infantile “gotcha” style partisan interview actually undermines Palin.”

    It’s ‘gotcha’ to ask where one gets their news? Seriously people. This is what drives us crazy about the Palin pick. The idiocy its driving so many people to.

    “You hate her because she stands in the way of you imposing your beliefs on others.”

    No abortion for rape and incest. Rape and incest.

    imdw (12c068)

  67. EW1 @ #56 and Apogee @ #58 – You both made my point far better than I. Thanks.

    Dana – Except for the innocent lives of mooses.

    JD (f7900a)

  68. imdw doesn’t speak for me and I’m a woman the last time I looked. I didn’t attend a fancy Ivy League school or have family money and influence, but somehow I managed to rise from the bottom to management in my first job and I managed to start a small business from scratch and turn it into a financial success, I managed to raise a child (conceived by rape) for a number of years as a single parent and then two children as a married woman, all while working full time. In between, I fit in extra college classes in a field I was thinking of switching to.

    I don’t know any women who think like imdw, but then I don’t hang around with women I think of as silly and self-absorbed, who want to tell me why my life isn’t a full one and want to force me to live their idea of what my life should be.

    imdw and her cohorts aren’t at all about choice. If they were, they wouldn’t hate women who have made the choice for life. I don’t understand how a woman can choose to murder her own flesh and blood, it is just beyond my ability to compute. Apparently there are plenty of women who can murder their own flesh and blood. I think less of them for that choice, but I still recognize that it was their choice, if choice really means anything at all.

    Sara (Pal2Pal) (3337ed)

  69. The idiocy its driving so many people to.

    Oh, I doubt you needed to be driven there.

    Again, we await you showing us any evidence, even the slightest bit of evidence, that she used her position as Governor of the entire fucking State to impose her beliefs on the populace. Since it is a Republican State, that should have been easy for her to do, no?

    JD (f7900a)

  70. “If Palin had answered that stupid gotcha question with “I read The Economist every week,” Couric would have followed it up with “Oh yeah? Who’s your favorite writer from there?””

    Then we could obfuscate and blame the interviewer just like with the Bush Doctrine and Gibson: Economist articles are not signed.

    imdw (3cd17c)

  71. imdw, I ask this with a serious wish to hear your line of reasoning: in the case of rape, why is it permittable to punish the an innocent life by killing it when it was without responsibility but was instead the result of a crime committed by the biological father (for lack of better term)?

    For what other crime committed by parents do we punish a baby and cause it to die?

    This issue is thorny at best but I rarely get to hear the thought process behind those who unwaveringly demand to be able to abort a baby – no mater what.

    Dana (437bb2)

  72. “imdw and her cohorts aren’t at all about choice.”

    his.

    imdw (3cd17c)

  73. I thought the 3rd in line is the Speaker of the House. Now think about that one. Pelosi has been in her position less time than Palin has been Governor. Now compare their records on management and accomplishments and especially on leadership.

    Sara (Pal2Pal) (3337ed)

  74. “imdw, I ask this with a serious wish to hear your line of reasoning: in the case of rape, why is it permittable to punish the an innocent life by killing it when it was without responsibility but was instead the result of a crime committed by the biological father (for lack of better term)?”

    I see the abortion issue as tension between two interests, that of the fetus and that of the mother. In the case of rape, the mother has a greater legitimacy in ending the pregnancy than without rape.

    imdw (3cd17c)

  75. his.

    Well then your arrogance in speaking for women is mind-boggling.

    Sara (Pal2Pal) (3337ed)

  76. I don’t think that’s a hypothetical scenario we really have to worry about.

    Because is isn’t a hypothetical.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  77. well, imdw, you see that’s where we differ: I think the only one that should possibly die out of the three lives involved is the guilty one who committed the heinous crime – not an innocent woman or baby. Just the guilty one.

    Dana (437bb2)

  78. Then we could obfuscate and blame the interviewer just like with the Bush Doctrine and Gibson

    If anyone needed proof that this imdw person does not enter into the discussion in good faith, this ought to clear that up for you.

    Sara – When the self-Lefteous ones are standing on the self-proclaimed moral high ground, they can speak for women, blacks, minorities, etc … Because they know what is best.

    JD (f7900a)

  79. his.

    You. Have. Got. To. Be. Kidding.

    Dana (437bb2)

  80. You. Have. Got. To. Be. Kidding.
    HA!

    Jack Klompus (b0e238)

  81. I am just curious, does imdw’s gender actually matter in the context of this issue?

    JD (f7900a)

  82. I am just curious, does imdw’s gender actually matter in the context of this issue?

    Of course it does when he purports to speak for women. I think their are enough responses from real women to indicate he does not speak for women. Although, I’m sure he thinks he speaks for the women he associates with and/or maybe the women he has impregnated without intention of being a father.

    Sara (Pal2Pal) (3337ed)

  83. No abortion for rape and incest.

    Like I said before: Bologna.

    There is a huge difference between believing that innocent unborns shouldn’t be punished even if their conception was the result of violence: its a belief that life is precious and valuable, and that violence is to be abhorred and not perpetuated.

    But you wouldn’t understand that because your life is built on blind hatred of “the other,” of people you don’t understand and who threaten you because their lives are worthwhile and yours is not. And you aren’t willing to find out what “the other” is really about, because it would shatter your self image to find out that you aren’t the morally superior being that you imagine yourself to be.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  84. I’m finding it more than a little hilarious that we have so much focus on Palin’s supposed gaffes and inartful answers when the Democrats are running the blithering idiot Biden as VP.

    Biden’s the guy who refered to a nonexistant US official visit to Iran recently, thinks FDR was President two years before he was and that FDR appeared on television which had not even been invented yet, and gave speeches plagiarized from Neil Kinnock down to reciting Kinnock’s childhood as Biden’s own.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  85. Then we could obfuscate and blame the interviewer just like with the Bush Doctrine and Gibson

    The only obfuscation that matters to the media is the concealment of Palin’s actual accomplishments – her record regarding corruption and her approval ratings. It is all negative spin, and Couric and the media’s ‘concern’ of her ‘abilities’ betrays their absolute partisan ‘fix’ for Obama.

    Apogee (186a12)

  86. Her fractured syntax.

    Ummm, WTF?

    She speaks better than Obama.

    N. O'Brain (453dd2)

  87. Oh, and another thing the idea of “No abortion for rape and incest.” is a choice that Governor Palin would like to persuade those faced with a decision like that to make, not something that she (or I) believe should be forced upon somebody by the government.

    Unlike the O!ne, who has plenty of distasteful things lined up that he wants to force upon me and mine.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  88. …it is the lack of heavy experience with international affairs. I think this is a reasonable concern.

    Does the name Bill Clinton ring a bell?

    How about Pavlov?

    N. O'Brain (453dd2)

  89. #84 N. O’Brain:

    She speaks better than Obama.

    LOL!!

    Hell, she speaks a whole lot better’n me!

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  90. If coherence is your issue, vote McCain/Palin:

    “What they’ll say is, “Well it costs too much money,” but you know what? It would cost, about… It — it — it would cost about the same as what we would spend… It… Over the course of 10 years it would cost what it would costs us… (nervous laugh) All right. Okay. We’re going to… It… It would cost us about the same as it would cost for about — hold on one second. I can’t hear myself. But I’m glad you’re fired up, though. I’m glad.”

    w3bgrrl (5b8906)

  91. Presidential Line of Succession:
    1st in Line….Vice-President;
    2nd in Line….Speaker of the House;
    3rd in Line….President Pro-Tempore of the Senate.

    Leftists have this remarkable ability to speak for great swaths of the body politic even though a classical liberal education has always looked down upon speaking in broad generalities.

    In looking at others, Conservatives focus on what the other person claims to stand for and what they have accomplished;
    Leftists project onto others that which they suppress in themselves, believing that others would do what they (Leftists) won’t because they (Leftists) are so much “better” than others.

    Freud lived a hundred years too early.

    AOracle (7b9099)

  92. If historical knowledge is your issue, vote McCain/Palin:

    “When the stock market crashed, Franklin Roosevelt got on the television and didn’t just talk about the princes of greed.”

    w3bgrrl (5b8906)

  93. w3bgrrl, that was typical Biden. Probably saw FDR on television in his dad’s coal mine.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  94. “Well then your arrogance in speaking for women is mind-boggling.”

    Because a woman can speak for women, or for many women. But a man can’t, per you.

    “Of course it does when he purports to speak for women. ”

    I’d think a man can discuss the reactions of both men and women to the Palin pick. But I suppose not. How arrogant of me.

    “Like I said before: Bologna.”

    She answered a questionnaire on this topic you know.

    “Oh, and another thing the idea of “No abortion for rape and incest.” is a choice that Governor Palin would like to persuade those faced with a decision like that to make, not something that she (or I) believe should be forced upon somebody by the government.”

    So she’s pro-choice?

    imdw (a0d4b5)

  95. imdw – That was a trollish response.

    JD (f7900a)

  96. Kind of reminds me of alphie.

    JD (f7900a)

  97. SPQR, you know, on my way over here to Patterico.com I was thinking that the only way Biden escaped his dad’s coal mine was to be the first person in his family to go to college.

    w3bgrrl (5b8906)

  98. Free breathalizers for all asthmatic children!

    w3bgrrl (5b8906)

  99. If palin wants people to make choices, she’s pro-choice. It’s that simple. It’s my position on abortion. I don’t buy for a second that this is her view, but hey, like I said, this Palin pick is driving people to idiocy. Like telling me her views on abortion are irrelevant, when she’s activated the pro-life base.

    Everyone here is talking all sorts of things about innocents and morality etc… I think its a weighty issue and one that women must have the privacy to choose for themselves. Not the law. Not the picketers.

    imdw (4daa88)

  100. imdw – redefining terms. Now a confirmed troll.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  101. What you are observing are the death throws of the leftist feminists reign over all things ‘woman’. I’m old enough to remember the 60′s and the ‘movement’. Somewhere along the line these elite feminist fore bearers lost touch with the rest of us, if they ever thought of us at all.

    Sarah Palin is now the most visible evidence of their demise and the vast chasm between them and the rest of us. They would not approve of her if she was pro-choice and atheist. They hate her because she represents the success of those of us from what they consider the ‘great unwashed’. How dare she succeed without them. They told us that we didn’t need men, that we didn’t need families. Along comes Palin who has it all and they are jealous with rage. What they say about her, says more about them than they think.

    Although I disagree with Palin on the abortion issue, I am not at all threatened by her views. She is far less interested in imposing her views on others than these nasty, viscous elitists are. They have no tolerance for anyone who doesn’t think exactly like them or have made the same choices in their lives.

    They have stood silently by for decades while women are abused every day throughout the world. They have, for all their self-absorbed and aggrandized opinion of themselves, not advanced the causes and progress of women at all, only their own interests. They are throwing bombs, trying to get the attention back to themselves. . . their days are numbered. I hope they are finally seen as for what they are. It couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch.

    Genny (a7a9b9)

  102. “imdw – redefining terms. Now a confirmed troll.”

    Ok then. You define ‘pro-choice’ and ‘pro-life.’ But you think Palin thinks women should be able to choose? Or not?

    “Along comes Palin who has it all and they are jealous with rage. ”

    She has all the newspapers. Thats true.

    imdw (45d14f)

  103. LOL@imdw-
    you’re kidding, right? This has just been some big, contrarian joke where you tried to be a ludicrous parody?

    <= serious

    Foxfier (15ac79)

  104. Obama and Biden are faux-pas factories.

    FDR on TV in 1929 and 60 states in the US.

    Im sorry but few are quite that dumb and that’s “change” we don’t need!

    ML (14488c)

  105. Yep, imdw, all the newspapers. ‘Cause Biden’s been hogging the TV to watch FDR’s fireside chats.

    Troll.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  106. “Yep, imdw, all the newspapers. ‘Cause Biden’s been hogging the TV to watch FDR’s fireside chats.”

    I really can’t wait till thursday. Who will come out in favor of choice?

    imdw (45d14f)

  107. like I said, this Palin pick is driving people to idiocy

    Again, you were well on your way there …

    JD (f7900a)

  108. JD,

    From way upthread — it doesn’t matter to me if imdw is male or female. I think both can have valid opinions on this subject.

    DRJ (c953ab)

  109. Okay, let’s agree that abortion is (marginally) permissible in the case of rape. Now in the other 99.99% of cases….

    Now watch the incidence of rape skyrocket.

    Terry Gain (aab754)

  110. DRJ – It always concerns me when any group is given some kind of high ground from which their opinions carry more weight, or in this case, that gender would matter in the position taken. I understand what Dana and Sara meant about imdw proclaiming to speak for women, when he obvious does not. I just wanted to caution that we not let that creep to where it becomes some bastardized version of the chickenhawk shite puked by the Left.

    JD (f7900a)

  111. “Okay, let’s agree that abortion is (marginally) permissible in the case of rape.”

    It already is.

    “Now watch the incidence of rape skyrocket.”

    Maybe we can just not collect the evidence of it.

    imdw (031ded)

  112. I think its a weighty issue and one that women must have the privacy to choose for themselves.

    No, you don’t. You’re fine, as long as they make the choice you think they should!

    If they don’t, according to your worldview, they are attempting to force their beliefs on you~when its demonstrable that isn’t true.

    But you think Palin thinks women should be able to choose? Or not?

    Since the first veto Governor Palin exercised in her executive capacity as Governor of Alaska was to strike down a bill denying benefits to same-sex couples (that would be, like, you know, teh ghey an’ lesbians), I think it likely that she’ll continue to zealously guard the rights of all citizens should she continue in executive positions where that is part of her responsibilities.

    Again, very unlike the O!ne who has no problem emulating the practices of dictatorial regimes throughout history in corrupting the force of law and it arms to suppress dissent against his campaign and quest for power.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  113. #86,
    Didn’t vote for Clinton. The subject in this thread is Palin. I stand by my opinion.

    voiceofreason2 (edeb20)

  114. #108 DRJ:

    I think both can have valid opinions on this subject.

    Agreed, although I tend to think that women are more likely to empathize with other women about issues that affect women but have little impact on men.

    No matter how metrosexual we’re trying to be that particular day.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  115. I almost dread McCain/Palin winning. Can you imagine the hatred that will spew for four years?!

    Patricia (ee5c9d)

  116. Isn’t it nice that Sarah Palin’s imaginary friend is an alien.

    David Ehrenstein (06e7fb)

  117. I really can’t wait till thursday. Who will come out in favor of choice?

    Would that be the ability to choose to defend her family with a firearm?

    Or maybe being able to choose to send her children to a neighborhood school and not the government-designated one where the racial quota needs to be filled?

    How about the freedom to choose to use the taxes taken from her paycheck in the form of a voucher at the school where she feels her kids will get the best education?

    What about choosing to invest a portion of the money taken out of her paycheck instead of handing it around?

    Or are we simply talking about choosing to grind up inconvenient pregnancies?

    Dave (d51df8)

  118. …it is the lack of heavy experience with international affairs. I think this is a reasonable concern.

    It is good to know that you are not voting for Baracky. Plus, if Biden’s heavy experience consists of partitioning Iraq, and paying Iran $300,000,000 post 9-11, then that should weigh in your calculus as well.

    JD (f7900a)

  119. #100 Genny:

    It couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch.

    For whatever reason, I had to read that four or five times before it didn’t appear to me to be:

    It couldn’t happen to nicer bitches.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  120. Can you imagine the hatred that will spew for four years?!

    One not need imagine it. You are already seeing it. Couple that with the BDS of the last 8 years, and you have a reasonable approximation of what to expect, at the very minimum.

    Dave – Choice is only an option on abortion. On all other matters,Baracky and the Dems know how best for you to live your life.

    JD (f7900a)

  121. I don’t have a problem with imdw’s opining on women’s issues. It was startling to hear he was not a female. It cracks me up to hear a man spout of feminist rhetoric, implying what women should believe and think… obviously I don’t agree with him but I don’t resent his mis-assumptions and stereotyping any more than I do the feminists.

    …I tend to think that women are more likely to empathize with other women about issues that affect women but have little impact on men.

    I agree. Gee, just maybe men and women are different? Another feminist writhes. :)

    Dana (437bb2)

  122. Women hate Palin because she has merely gotten by on her cuteness in public life and her views are extremely nutty-Christian and anti-woman.

    Which views have you in mind ? I assume you oppose her position on abortion. Are you in favor of infanticide ? If not, you disagree with Senator Obama.

    I gave up on the rest because the server is now responding at dial-up speed. Or less.

    nt by joojooluv

    Mike K (155601)

  123. #114 Patricia:

    Can you imagine the hatred that will spew for four years?!

    Well, yeah.

    But it’s the irony of it coming from the self-proclaimed populists on the left that will kill me.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  124. #116,
    Biden and McCain both have more experience individually in the foreign arena than the Palin/Obama combined – even with Joe’s examples you mentioned.

    voiceofreason2 (edeb20)

  125. A co-worker was going on an absolute diatribe this morning about how Gov. Palin is the worst VP candidate ever, least qualified, blah blah blah, and then he dared me to point out a Dem candidate that had less qualifications. I said John Edwards and Barack Obama. He almost passed out.

    JD (f7900a)

  126. COURIC: Can you name any of them?

    PALIN: I have a vast variety of sources where we get our news too. Alaska isn’t a foreign country where it’s kind of suggested it seems like, wow how could you keep in touch with what the rest of Washington, DC may be thinking and doing, when you live up there in Alaska. Believe me, Alaska is like a microcosm of America.

    Spoken like a journalism major.

    No, spoken like someone who understands that Couric is trying to make her look like a dumb hick and she ain’t buying. She is making fun of Couric and her attempt at sterotyping Alaska and Alaskans.

    And for the record, her father said in an interview that when he grabbed the sports page Sarah grabbed the front page and poured over it starting in 3rd grade. And her sister and one of her good friends said that the thing they remember most about Sarah growing up was that she always had a book in her hand, that she is an avid reader.

    Sara (Pal2Pal) (3337ed)

  127. #119 Dana:

    Gee, just maybe men and women are different?

    I suppose.

    I’ll never understand why my wife needs so many different guns. And all so big!

    But, she obviously doesn’t understand the warm fuzzy I get from having plenty of spare cases of ammo for what few guns I have.

    Even if they are small.

    My guns, that are.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  128. “No, you don’t. You’re fine, as long as they make the choice you think they should!”

    Earlier people were whining about who was presuming to speak for women. Now we got someone speaking for me. Palin got to make her choice. Other women get theirs. Thats my position. I consider it pro-choice. If people want to call it something else go ahead.

    “If they don’t, according to your worldview, they are attempting to force their beliefs on you~when its demonstrable that isn’t true.”

    This is someone who has stated their opposition to abortion. Not as in her personal preference for when she would have one.

    But if she comes out and says she supports choice, then I’ll stand corrected. You think this will happen? Is it ‘gotcha’ journalism to ask if she supports a woman’s right to choose?

    “It cracks me up to hear a man spout of feminist rhetoric, implying what women should believe and think… obviously I don’t agree with him but I don’t resent his mis-assumptions and stereotyping any more than I do the feminists.”

    Arguing for choice and victim’s rights: ‘what women should believe.’

    imdw (8b3658)

  129. EW1 – Better Half wants to know why I have a gun that can take down an elephant from almost a mile. I tell her, you never know when that may come in handy …

    JD (f7900a)

  130. “If they don’t, according to your worldview, they are attempting to force their beliefs on you~when its demonstrable that isn’t true.”

    This is someone who has stated their opposition to abortion. Not as in her personal preference for when she would have one.

    Oh, the horror. She does not believe what you believe. The only difference is that you would force your beliefs on others, whereas there is nothing in her record that suggests she would, and in fact, the evidence suggest that she would not.

    imdw has proven itself, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to engage in bad faithed discussion, and is but another alphie-esque troll.

    JD (f7900a)

  131. “And for the record, her father said in an interview that when he grabbed the sports page Sarah grabbed the front page and poured over it starting in 3rd grade”

    And all that Couric wanted to know is what newspaper that was. GOTCHA!

    “And her sister and one of her good friends said that the thing they remember most about Sarah growing up was that she always had a book in her hand, that she is an avid reader.”

    See the book question is easy for her to handle: bible. Real gotcha would be asking her what her second favorite book is.

    imdw (c990d8)

  132. imdw:

    Arguing for choice and victim’s rights: ‘what women should believe.’

    I’m not sure I understand this. Are you saying all women should be pro-choice?

    DRJ (c953ab)

  133. Yes, DRJ.

    JD (f7900a)

  134. “Are you saying all women should be pro-choice?”

    I’m saying I think women should have choice to abort or not abort as they believe.

    JD still thinks that Palin agrees with me.

    imdw (c990d8)

  135. Let’s let Palin speak for herself instead thru the nightmares of imdw:

    Couric: If a 15-year-old is raped by her father, do you believe it should be illegal for her to get an abortion, and why?

    Palin: I am pro-life. And I’m unapologetic in my position that I am pro-life. And I understand there are good people on both sides of the abortion debate. In fact, good people in my own family have differing views on abortion, and when it should be allowed. Do I respect people’s opinions on this. Now, I would counsel to choose life. I would also like to see a culture of life in this country. But I would also like to take it one step further. Not just saying I am pro-life and I want fewer and fewer abortions in this country, but I want them, those women who find themselves in circumstances that are absolutely less than ideal, for them to be supported, and adoptions made easier.

    Couric: But ideally, you think it should be illegal for a girl who was raped or the victim of incest to get an abortion?

    Palin: I’m saying that, personally, I would counsel the person to choose life, despite horrific, horrific circumstances that this person would find themselves in. And, um, if you’re asking, though, kind of foundationally here, should anyone end up in jail for having an … abortion, absolutely not. That’s nothing I would ever support.

    Couric: Some people have credited the morning-after pill for decreasing the number of abortions. How do you feel about the morning-after pill?

    Palin: Well, I am all for contraception. And I am all for preventative measures that are legal and save, and should be taken, but Katie, again, I am one to believe that life starts at the moment of conception. And I would like to see …

    Couric: And so you don’t believe in the morning-after pill?

    Palin: … I would like to see fewer and fewer abortions in this world. And again, I haven’t spoken with anyone who disagrees with my position on that.

    Couric: I’m sorry, I just want to ask you again. Do you not support or do you condone or condemn the morning-after pill.

    Palin: Personally, and this isn’t McCain-Palin policy …

    Couric: No, that’s OK, I’m just asking you.

    Palin: But personally, I would not choose to participate in that kind of contraception.

    Sara (Pal2Pal) (3337ed)

  136. Let’s remind the Left and feminists on how they treat people who disagree with them:

    1) Justice Clarence Thomas — attacked with the first major “sexual harrasment” case. NOW opposed Thomas, but then NAACP was silent.

    2) President Bill Clinton — Accused of sexual harrasment, lawsuit that went to SCOTUS (where Justice Thomas, still hated by the NAACP) decided President Clinton should be treated like every other citazen. NOW Supported President Clinton.

    When and if these “American splinter groups” choose to support their own culture, irregardless of party, then we have moved into a Post-partisan world.

    Instead NOW and NAACP only support democrats.

    JSF (98a373)

  137. Sara – Clearly she is trying to impose her beliefs on all that disagree with her.

    On a side note, could Couric be more vapid?

    JD (f7900a)

  138. Now we got someone speaking for me.

    Not at all. But it’s trivial to recognize that you are projecting your own frailties upon a third party.

    Again, rather than make the effort to ascertain for yourself what Mrs. Palin’s actions have been, as a barometer of what her future actions might be, you would prefer to believe that she cannot be as “enlightened” as you are because the beliefs that she espouses aren’t the ones you think she should have.

    Does she have a principled, moral objection to abortion? Yes. Has she ever used her executive capacity as a public servant to impose her beliefs upon others? No.

    An obvious contrast from the way I would expect you to behave in a similar set of circumstances. And yet, you persist in telling us how Gov. Palin would behave in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  139. #130 JD:

    Better Half wants to know why I have a gun that can take down an elephant from almost a mile. I tell her, you never know when that may come in handy …

    Absolutely. ;)

    My wife understands the necessity for a firearm that will bring down an elephant at 25 ft, even if she refuses to fire it herself.

    And to be honest, I don’t fire that one all that often myself. Just often enough to let my arm heal and maintain proficiency.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  140. But if she comes out and says she supports choice, then I’ll stand corrected. You think this will happen? Is it ‘gotcha’ journalism to ask if she supports a woman’s right to choose?

    “…I would counsel to choose life.”

    “I would counsel to choose life.”

    “I’m saying that, personally, I would counsel the person to choose life”

    “But personally, I would not choose to participate in that kind of contraception.”

    What part of the word choose do you not understand?

    Sara (Pal2Pal) (3337ed)

  141. imdw, The problem with Democrats is that you are elitist buffoons who scream about political correctness and equality while secretly believing that you (government)are smarter than the people and therefore need to make their decisions for them. Couric, the Queen of Cute is now a legit journalist? You are basing your views on Palin’s personal decision of pro-life and not her political record. In short, being the open minded lib you cannot stand anyone who doesn’t bow to your ultra intelligence and believe exactly as you tell them to.
    Change you MUST SUBMIT to.

    Bfidler (e8f3cb)

  142. but. but. but. she’s a christian whacko. she can’t believe in choice. and besides, imdw’s sister’s boyfriend’s sister’s college professor’s aunt’s brother-in-laws’s mother saw her at a pro-life rally.

    w3bgrrl (5b8906)

  143. EW1(SG), that reminds me. I need to buy more 5.56mm ammo …

    SPQR (26be8b)

  144. #139 Sara (Pal2Pal):

    What part of the word choose do you not understand?

    It doesn’t fit with his image of himself as morally superior to some hick broad from Alaska who’s better read and has demonstrated the ability to act on principles that conflict with her personal beliefs in a way that he is unable to.

    That she is likely a better shot than he is, and without a doubt a much better fisherman just makes it unbearable.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  145. “What part of the word choose do you not understand?”

    So Palin is Pro-choice. Good stuff. I’d love to hear her on the mexico city policy.

    “And, um, if you’re asking, though, kind of foundationally here, should anyone end up in jail for having an … abortion, absolutely not. That’s nothing I would ever support.”

    And on the existence of clinics, doctors, access to choice, etc…

    But Pro-choice! See? These Couric gotchas are good for something. And morning after pill? Abortion too. Choice too.

    imdw (0b3979)

  146. #142 SPQR:

    I need to buy more 5.56mm ammo …

    EW1′s travel tip for the day: remember, make it easy on the TSA when checking your luggage and when they ask how much ammo you have, remember to answer in pounds.

    Oh, and don’t forget to scotch tape the boxes shut. Four or five hundred rounds rolling around on the floor at the ticket counter are soooo embarrassing.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  147. Good advice, EW1(SG). I got odds looks the last time I was travelling to a USPSA Section match by air … well, it was a fair amount of .45 ACP.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  148. Wait a minute:

    http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/09/12/the-gibson-interview-palin-roe-v-wade

    ” Gibson: Roe v. Wade, do you think it should be reversed?

    Palin: I think it should and I think states should be able to decide that issue. ”

    ‘States’ is the government deciding, not women. Not choice. Either she’s got her talking points mixed up or she’s not being straightforward with us. So i’m not so sure I can put her in the choice camp.

    imdw (2de38c)

  149. #146 SPQR:

    I got odds looks the last time I was travelling to a USPSA Section match by air … well, it was a fair amount of .45 ACP.

    LOL! That’s where knowing the weight comes in handy!

    It hasn’t helped with the odd looks though. I get those even when I’m not checking shooting supplies…

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  150. So i’m not so sure

    that devolving decisions to the people at a local level is sympathetic to the goals of a centralized government and economy that those of us on the left aspire to.

    Nice try. You’re all for individual choice as long as its the choice you believe should be made, but as soon as somebody actually proposes that people be allowed to make THEIR OWN choices, why, it must be some kind of coercion!

    Let’s face it. You ain’t man enough to stand up tall enough to see over the soles of Sarah Palin’s shoes so there isn’t anything too low for you to say to discredit her.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  151. But Pro-choice! See? These Couric gotchas are good for something. And morning after pill? Abortion too. Choice too.

    imdw: We know what Palin’s personal choice is. You have made clear that you choose murder over non-murder of babies, she says she understands differences of opinions, but still chooses for life.

    I happen to agree with her as stated above, I can not compute how a woman can murder her own flesh and blood, even if conceived by rape. Incest is a little harder because the ick factor factors in and I have a hard time getting around it, especially since the majority of incest victims are young minor girls. And, like the majority of Americans, when the life of the mother is at stake, a doctor should be able to do whatever he thinks best to save her life.

    Sara (Pal2Pal) (3337ed)

  152. “You’re all for individual choice as long as its the choice you believe should be made, but as soon as somebody actually proposes that people be allowed to make THEIR OWN choices, why, it must be some kind of coercion!”

    uh. people making their own choices is fine. “states” or “the state” is not. I think you’re not getting this. During the Couric interview, she was fine with people making their own choices. That was pro-choice. Fine for me. I’d like to hear more about the mexico city policy, etc… But she has the overall pro-choice idea, its just a question of implementation.

    During gibson, she thought “states” should do this. Those are inconsistent. A woman’s choice is guaranteed by roe v. wade. Its the ultimate decentralization — to each individual. Saying states or localities get to decide this is not saying that women get a choice. Its saying government does.

    And So she’s either mixed up or she is not being straightforward or between gibson and couric she’s become pro-choice.

    “You ain’t man enough to stand up tall enough to see over the soles of Sarah Palin’s shoes so there isn’t anything too low for you to say to discredit her.”

    I’m like a little wolf. In an aerial wolf hunt.

    imdw (20f608)

  153. Comment by imdw — 9/30/2008 @ 9:59 pm

    I must have been out of town too long;
    Could you please remind a lost soul what controversy needs to be settled re Mexico City?

    AOracle (7b9099)

  154. Palin: I think it should and I think states should be able to decide that issue. ”

    ‘States’ is the government deciding, not women. Not choice. Either she’s got her talking points mixed up or she’s not being straightforward with us. So i’m not so sure I can put her in the choice camp.

    Oh for pete’s sake, all she is saying is that it shouldn’t be a federal Constitution issue.

    Sara (Pal2Pal) (3337ed)

  155. JVW, you say: it never ceases to amaze me how liberal women feel entitled to speak on behalf all women.

    |||

    Firstly, I’m not a liberal but a socialist. There is a difference. Secondly, I didn’t attempt to speak on behalf of “all women”. It is true that mone than one woman (i.e. women) “in particular hate the idea typically put about by conservative men that affirmative action is some sort of conspiracy amongst the sisterhood to edge out better qualified men”. I’m one such woman. The OP asked why “some women” hate Sarah Palin, and in context, I was answering, while explaining what those who object to her, regardless of their precise langhuage, are driven by.

    Throughout the ensuing posts here, there’s a persistent theme, which attributes political hostility to Palin’s politics in terms of personal angst. That’s a huge and utterly groundless generalisation and unsurprisingly, not a shred of evidence is offered to support it.

    Perversely, it’s argued elsewhere that if she were ‘pro-choice’ the attitude would be different. How these two claims can co-exist is anyone’s guess, but the proponenets of the first say nothing of the second. Still another implies it is entirely political after all — they hate because Obama told them to …

    No I don’t speak for all women, but a good many women I know don’t like being condescended to. We don’t like being thrown sops. It’s clear that McCain’s shortlist had any number of better qualified and better vetted people than Palin –and at least one of them — Kate Bailey — is a woman. But the driving force behinds this choice was the crazy idea that disaffected Clintonistas would jump ship so a woman could break the glass ceiling — regardless of her lack of merit — because he himself didn’t know what iut was, aside from her sex. That, as I noted shows how McCain views Clinton supporters and women in general.

    You’re entitled to disagree with my estimation of Ms Palin’s intellectual accomplishments, but your schoolyard style “that says more about you” taunt discourages the view that you are in a position to evaluate the question with rigor.

    Isn’t it plain though that someone who speaks in public as if NORAD is coordinating the defence of Alaskan air space from Putin’s rearing head in consultation with her is potty? Isn’t it plain that someone who hasn’t made it her business to know which side of the argument her senior is on in respect of Pakistan, or Hamas or what the Wall St package means is simply stupid. She’d scarcely have needed to do more than pay attention. This is a person who when Mayor of Wasilla asserted the idea that humans and dinosaurs coexisted 6000 years ago and that “the rapture” would come within her lifetime.

    One meets such people from time to time. They are entitled to their views, but should they be considered fit for high office? The highest office on the planet? I don’t believe so. We’ve had someone like that already and it didn’t work out so well.

    The fact remains that leaving out assassinations, 7 of 43 Presidents have died in office. At 72, McCain will be the oldest first term President of the US. There has to be a pretty reasonable chance that if elected Palin would at some point become President, so how fit she is to that task is germane.

    Whoever wins, the US and the world is in for a rough ride, but it’s hard to escape the idea that if McCain and Palin win, the ride and the accompanying pain will be a good deal worse, and Palin’s exemplar will be cited as the case in point for women staying at home while the men do serious work.

    Fran Barlow (e2539a)

  156. Fran Barlow – Firstly, I’m not a liberal but a socialist. There is a difference.

    The difference is you still believe in a political system based on coercion that has been disastrous in every attempt.

    That says that you don’t believe in ‘choice’ at all.

    Apogee (186a12)

  157. is not being straightforward

    The only one not being straightforward is you.

    That you have an issue with Palin standing up for the Constitution as designed and written speaks volumes.

    I’m like a little wolf. In an aerial wolf hunt.

    Displaying your ignorance of subsistence predation by native Alaskans doesn’t advance your cause any.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  158. Call it a personal shortcoming of mine if you must, but I just cease to take seriously a person when they announce “I’m a socialist.”

    Jack Klompus (b0e238)

  159. 154 Fran Barlow:

    Throughout the ensuing posts here, there’s a persistent theme, which attributes political hostility to Palin’s politics in terms of personal angst. That’s a huge and utterly groundless generalisation and unsurprisingly, not a shred of evidence is offered to support it.

    On the contrary, as the foremost proponent of that meme in this thread I would point out that it’s directed at a single individual. And in fact, I would like to see that individual use the energy of his angst to more thoroughly investigate the political landscape, because honestly, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

    OTOH, empirically the only people that I have met that self identify as socialists have been enormously maladjusted. Speaking as a drug addict and alcoholic, they have almost all exhibited the obsessive behavior that characterizes the limbic system disorder peculiar to addicts.

    Further, some of your statements below have an affect that

    … discourages the view that you are in a position to evaluate the question with rigor.

    For example,

    Isn’t it plain though that someone who speaks in public as if NORAD is coordinating the defence of Alaskan air space from Putin’s rearing head in consultation with her is potty?

    Now, since that’s actually the way things work~your attempt to equate legitimate government functions at both local and national levels with black helicopters is the only thing “potty.”

    And further, not exactly an American turn of phrase, that.

    To sum up, since I have to leave for work…you have zero credibility on anything. The idea that you would willingly suscribe to a failed ideology that has left millions of dead people in its wake in the last century alone, a century that I been alive to witness a great part of, is a priori evidence of your morally repugnant sociopathy.

    EW1(SG) (e8fd8c)

  160. “Oh for pete’s sake, all she is saying is that it shouldn’t be a federal Constitution issue.”

    And that it should be up to the states. That’s not choice. If she doesn’t get that what protects choice is Roe v. Wade, then she’s not really a supporter of the right to choose.

    “Displaying your ignorance of subsistence predation by native Alaskans doesn’t advance your cause any.”

    Any subsistence done from the air is quite intriguing.

    imdw (3b5634)

  161. Firstly, I’m not a liberal but a socialist. There is a difference.

    Would that the rest of the Democrats would be as candid. They’re socialists, too. They just won’t admit it.

    qwfwq (849caa)

  162. “That’s not choice by my definition”

    Fixed that for you imdw. You don’t want to give voters an opportunity to express their choice, but instead prefer to rely on a judicially mandated decision. What kind of “choice” is that?

    daleyrocks (9dd0de)

  163. Palin is Failin’-why? She is Dan Quayle in drag.Enough said.

    rob (55fd42)

  164. You know what’s funny, feminists who don’t believe other people should control women’s bodies condeming Sarah Palin’s decision not to abort her Down’s Syndrom child.

    You know what’s also funny, feminists who don’t believe other people should control women’s bodies condeming Bristol Palin for having sex and getting knocked up and deciding not to abort the baby, although they still hope for an abortion.

    You know what’s even funnier, feminists who don’t believe other people should control women’s bodies condeming Sarah Palin for not being able to control Bristol Palin’s body and allowing Bristol Palin to have sex and get knocked up and decide not to the abort baby, even though the feminists are against parental notification laws, although they still hope for an abortion.

    I don’t understand the fucking left.

    daleyrocks (9dd0de)

  165. Why are those feminists think abortion rights are so important in this election? Don’t they know the economy is tanking?

    Michael Ejercito (a757fd)

  166. I like how often the word “CHOICE” gets repeated such that it has pretty much become the trademark term to mean “abortion on demand”. If you believe that Roe v Wade is a flawed decision based on interpretations of Constitutional law, well you see you sir or madam are against “CHOICE”. If you believe that abortion law should be an issue for states to decide according to the will of the people, well that shows how against “CHOICE” you are. What is so hard about speaking or even typing the word ABORTION?

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  167. 162. Brilliant insight rob. I find it hard to believe that you do not have tenure at a major university’s political science department. How exactly did that election turn out again when Quayle was on the ticket?

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  168. Firstly, I’m not a liberal but a socialist. There is a difference.

    Because socialism is all about choice for women, right? Because socialism is the one system where choice is the beating heart of its central theme. Because socialism is all about freedom for women (and men?)? Because socialism does not oppress anyone?

    Seriously?

    Dana (437bb2)

  169. Any subsistence done from the air is quite intriguing.

    Like I said, you’re clueless and only display your ignorance when you wander off the reservation there.

    EW1(SG) (da07da)

  170. Isn’t it plain though that someone who speaks in public as if NORAD is coordinating the defence of Alaskan air space from Putin’s rearing head in consultation with her is potty?

    I’m not exactly sure what your sentence is supposed to mean, but I doubt you meant it as a compliment, so here for your information:

    Alaska is the first line of defense in our missile interceptor defense system. The 49th Missile Defense Battalion of the Alaska National Guard is the unit that protects the entire nation from ballistic missile attacks. It’s on permanent active duty, unlike other Guard units.

    U.S. Northern Command brought the 100th Missile
    Defense Brigade (Ground-Based Midcourse Defense) to operational level for the first time in response to the July 2006 North Korean missile crisis. Previously maintained in test mode, the brigade, headquartered at Colorado Springs, Colorado, and its 49th Missile Defense Battalion
    (Ground-Based Missile Defense) at Fort Greely, Alaska, remained at high alert status for the duration of the crisis.

    As governor of Alaska, Palin is briefed on highly classified military issues, homeland security, and counterterrorism.

    She’s also the commander in chief of the Alaska State Defense Force (ASDF), a federally recognized militia incorporated into Homeland Security’s counterterrorism plans.

    Sara (Pal2Pal) (3337ed)

  171. She is Dan Quayle in drag

    Putting aside the insult, I worked for Dan Quayle and I can personally attest to the fact that he is one of the smartest men I’ve known, especially of men in Washington, DC. Did you know that when Dan Quayle was in the Senate, he was considered the go-to Senator for defense policy and arms control? No, didn’t think you did.

    Sara (Pal2Pal) (3337ed)

  172. 170. But…but…Obama, like, wrote the laws to stop loose nukes!

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  173. Yeh, Jack. I hate it when my nukes are loose, too. Nothing better than a good tight nuke.

    And, I’m still waiting for a further explanation of the “Mexico City” comment, imdw?

    AOracle (ec995e)

  174. AOracle clearly you do not support CHOICE.

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  175. Jack, I get to choose what CHOICE is, and then I get to tell you what your choice is.
    Isn’t that the way it works?

    AOracle (ec995e)

  176. Older women react to Palin with distaste because:

    (1) Roe is a visceral part of Women’s Liberation as they experienced it.

    (2) They assume the party/advisors will dominate her. This assumption is outdated and at variance with the facts – i.e. she is less beholden to the party than any candidate since Eisenhower. She gained the governor’s office and dominated it entirely against the wishes of the (state) party by appealing directly to the people.

    Feminists actively hate her because she’s an alpha female. They understand, explicitly or implicitly, that patriarchal civilization was a conspiracy between alpha females and beta males to restrict the wombs of beta females to beta male sperm. Alpha females got the good stuff, beta males got to reproduce, beta females perceived their own needs unmet. So once beta females gained the vote, they began supporting policies that gave them greater access to alpha sperm and less reliance on beta male support.

    BTW, the latter arrangement is suboptimal for offspring, male or female, hence the reaction against it. That reaction can only be cemented by winning over the alpha females. Sarah Palin represents that threat.

    David Warner (c73adf)

  177. David – I think it’s more the Dormitory Feminists who can’t abide Caribou Barbie, but you may be right.

    Palin is a Trojan Vagina to the youner feminazis.

    daleyrocks (9dd0de)

  178. Comment by David Warner — 10/1/2008 @ 9:25 am

    Isn’t that what Rush said in one of his “undeniable truths of life”:

    “The feminist movement was created to give unattractive women access to the mainstream of life (paraphrase).”

    AOracle (ec995e)

  179. The entire feminist agenda is designed to lower women’s status to be equal with men and to make women a permanent victim class. Sarah Palin and millions like her, including me, do not subscribe to that agenda. We do not like being held back and we totally reject the idea of victimhood. Women like Sarah Palin, call her an alpha female if that term fits, are women of action, not women whiners. They are not afraid of alpha males or look at them as the enemy, they enlist them and use them as allies, it is called networking when applied to a man. And surprise, surprise, alpha males aren’t afraid of women like Sarah Palin. They enjoy being around smart, independent women, who work hard and challenge them, much preferring them to the feminist man-haters and ballbusters who expect to be handed the keys to the kingdom because of their plumbing.

    Sara (Pal2Pal) (3337ed)

  180. Well said, Sara. I would add that feminists shot themselves in the foot by continually lowering the bar of expectation for all women.

    Because without that victimhood status, we just would not be able to do it. Because we are not equal to men. Because we own a uterus.

    Nobody has done more harm to the gender role of women than angry, bitter women.

    Dana (b4a26c)

  181. “The feminist movement was created to give unattractive women access to the mainstream of life (paraphrase).”

    They already had it under a monogamous system (do the math). The sexual revolution was about their desire to trade-up genetically while freeing themselves from the unattractive man they would otherwise have been stuck with (they get to shack up with the gummint instead). Alpha males like Hugh Hefner liked the prospect of spreading their seed more widely, so they cheered it on.

    Beta males (and kids) got screwed. Only by winning back the alpha females can the balance be restored. Sarah Palin is a double threat: Her headless household kicks the patriarchy myth in the nuts, while her (and Todd’s!) monogamous fidelity and fecundity promises to re-energize the Alpha female-Beta male conspiracy.

    David Warner (da0faf)

  182. Hugh Heffner an alpha male? Puhleeze. No wonder so many are so misguided. General Petraeus is an alpha male, Todd Palin is an alpha male, Rudy Giuliani is an alpha male, Mitt Romney is an alpha male, President GW Bush is an alpha male. John McCain is an alpha male at heart who for some reason, that I can’t fathom, has allowed himself to be hampered by non-alphas in order to have broader appeal. Hopefully, he’ll quit worrying how the beta press corps interprets him and starts being himself. Alpha males don’t exploit women, they work with them as partners. I’m trying to think of an alpha male on the left, but I’m drawing a blank. There must be some, somewhere.

    Sara (Pal2Pal) (3337ed)

  183. And Rush is often a hateful ass. Just saying.

    David Warner (da0faf)

  184. Kathleen Parker
    “Allow me to introduce myself. I am a traitor and an idiot. Also, my mother should have aborted me and left me in a dumpster, but since she didn’t, I should “off” myself.
    Those are a few nuggets randomly selected from thousands of e-mails written in response to my column suggesting that Sarah Palin is out of her league and should step down.
    Who says public discourse hasn’t deteriorated?
    …After 20 years of column writing, I’m familiar with angry mail. But the past few days have produced responses of a different order. Not just angry, but vicious and threatening.”

    Kathleen Parker 2003
    “Here’s a note I got recently from a friend and former Delta Force member, who has been observing American politics from the trenches: “These bastards like Clark and Kerry and that incipient ass, Dean, and Gephardt and Kucinich and that absolute mental midget Sharpton, race baiter, should all be lined up and shot.”

    Funny

    Readnek (105b91)

  185. Readnek chooses to ignore the vitriolic comments regarding Bill Clinton from Democrats regarding his comments in favor of John McCain.

    There are extremists of all political flavors, but it is the left that has made hatred a contest in the political arena.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  186. It doesn’t matter who McCain picked as his VP candidate. Hutchinson has been bandied about as a “superior” pick to Palin, and yet this would be a much more obvious attempt to pander to Clintonistas than picking Palin. (Who would a Clinton supporter vote for, a well known pro-choice female Senator or an unknown pro-life female governor?) Which is why this sort of remark:

    But the driving force behinds this choice was the crazy idea that disaffected Clintonistas would jump ship so a woman could break the glass ceiling

    is plainly absurd on its face. Palin wasn’t about the Clintonistas and continuing to believe so reflects an unnatural amount of vanity on their part. To paraphrase Carly Simon “You probably think this pick is about you.”

    As for Hutchinson, in the past she has been been referred to as “Breck Girl” and a “female impersonator” in spite of being pro-choice. And it was also said about her “Having someone who looks like us but thinks like them is worse than having no one.” Fact is, it didn’t matter who the GOP picked; if McCain picked a female VP she was going to be savaged as a female impersonator, as an AA pick, as a pander. If McCain picked a white man, it would be “return of the 2 (old) white men” and again, the attacks on the GOP for lacking ‘diversity’. If McCain picked a non white man, again, it would be attacked as an “AA pick”.

    h0mi (d2c7b6)

  187. But the driving force behinds this choice was the crazy idea that disaffected Clintonistas would jump ship so a woman could break the glass ceiling

    Not all of them, or even most of them.

    It is the small minority that do that makes the difference.

    Michael Ejercito (a757fd)

  188. I’ve seen some polling that suggests quite a large fraction of Hillary supporters won’t support Obama to this day.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  189. ‘And, I’m still waiting for a further explanation of the “Mexico City” comment, imdw?’

    google ‘mexico city policy.’ that’s the term that I used.

    “You don’t want to give voters an opportunity to express their choice, but instead prefer to rely on a judicially mandated decision. What kind of “choice” is that?”

    The choice each woman get to make without the interference of voters, legislators and governors. Yes if she gets to make that choice it means that other people don’t get to tell her what to do. Too bad. Its what people mean when they talk about ‘pro-choice.’ they don’t mean ‘pro’ the choice of the government to prohibit abortion. They mean ‘pro’ the ability of each individual to choose. Not states. Individuals. Not states like Palin says.

    imdw (57ace9)

  190. |||

    “Jack Klompus” says: Call it a personal shortcoming of mine if you must, but I just cease to take seriously a person when they announce “I’m a socialist.”

    |||

    Yes, Jack, it is a personal shortcoming. It’s called ignorance. Fortunately, there is a remedy though. It involves assiduous study, reflection and persistent attempts to evaluate the world comparatively using the metric you have and your new insights.

    |||

    Apogee says: The difference is you still believe in a political system based on coercion that has been disastrous in every attempt.

    That says that you don’t believe in ‘choice’ at all.
    |||

    Nothing I propose has anything to do with coercion. Past attempts at ‘socialism’ if indeed that is what they can be called, were as well-founded as past attempts at flight. Da Vinci, you know, once designed a helicopter which, but for the absence of the key materials, and the engine dynamics, would have flown. The attempts at flight in the early part of the 20th Century were farcical, but people persisted, backed by the state and ultimately succeeded. The early socialists were flying from the seats of their pants, in societies with no history of inclusive governance and always amidst the economic and political ruin of the old order. Your assertion is an exemplar of ‘post hoc ergo propter hoc’. Sequence does not imply causality.

    And as to “choice” you should know that the Bolsheviks were the first government in the world to make abortion legal and to abolish legal harassment of homosexuals.

    |||

    EW1 Says: OTOH, empirically the only people that I have met that self identify as socialists have been enormously maladjusted. Speaking as a drug addict and alcoholic, they have almost all exhibited the obsessive behavior that characterizes the limbic system disorder peculiar to addicts.

    |||

    At the height of the feminist movement, in the 1970s a popular slogan was “the personal is political”. You seem to have reworked this, to mean that all politics is an expression of one’s personal ego/superego.

    I’m sorry to hear that you have suffered from substance abuse problems, but I’m not going to accept your ‘aphorisms in psychology for dummies’ framewowk. While one’s precise political impulses are sometimes moved by one’s personal fears, it is the faultlines of class and one’s connectedness to humanity as a whole that is the scaffold for one’s politics.

    I would argue that the desire amongst humans to ensure that our material, intellectual and aesthetic needs are met through equitable collaboration has underpinned every advance in human social organisation. As rugged individuals, as small bands of hominids subsisting on their wits, the bulk of our 2 million year ancestral history were lives that, as Hobbes put it, were nasty, brutish and short. *Human* history begins properly only when our ancestors acquired language and laid down the first foundations for collaboration and learning. Upon this were civilizations built. From this bedrock emerged the rule of law, of scientific agriculture and irrigation, of the division of labour, of medicine, of engineering and of all the things that are the sine qua non of modern life. The humans of the Younger Dryas were as different from us as it’s possible to imagine and yet they began groping around for just the things that enabled us to be as we are, 13,000 years later. The struggle for socialism — which is nothing but the struggle to institute rational human social organisation, while on the lips of few, lurks in embryo in the minds of the many. Barack Obama is no socialist, and indeed, his claims to being a liberal are doubtful, but behind his movement, and behind the responses of middle America to the current crisis in financial markets is a desire to be protected not by capitalism, but from the corrosive consequences of its operation. The public in their majority care little for the fate of bankers and “the suits” but they want *their* communities, *their* houses, *their* jobs and *their* property protected, and they are beginning to understand that it matters whom the “rescue package” rescues. In Nevada, home repossessions for example are already up to 11,000 per month. In the US generally, millions are about to be dispossessed.

    The truth of the matter is that the system you endorse is in a shambolic state. Its most powerful protagonists, like the fabled sorcerers’ apprentice, have been enfeebled by the very forces they have authored. The financial crisis is not as much one of liquidity as *solvency*. The system has failed in the eyes, not merely of us socialists, but of those who in theory should know best. Banks don’t trust each other to repay debt. And why would they? In July, the real estate underpinning the debt fell by 16%. If they have to sell any signiificant part of it quickly, it will fall still further. 30% of the market is ‘sub-prime’. Governments that declare loudly that they have the wherewithall to crush any foreign enemy are reduced to a rabble before numbers on a balance sheet. Bush and McCain have been 100% repudiated by their own Senators from Texas and Arizona and 2/3 of Republicans in the Senate. AT the highest level of the government, there is consensus that the only way to save capitalism is to have the public buy it out. Could there be a more damning admission of market failure by those who should know? Bush came into this eason as a “lame duck” but now he and his system just looks like dead ducks — shot birds.

    What emerges from Washington will not, of course, be socialism, or anything like it, but the old Friedmanite orthodoxy has suffered a mortal blow, and now the debate will not be about whether the market is the best regulator but about how much and what kinds of public investments meet good tests of utility, and what these tests should be.

    I should say that my advocacy for socialism is not for something I propose can exist tomorrow or next year, or even next decade. Socialism is something that must rest on the foundations of inclusive governance and an active and informed citizenry. One cannot run ahead of the insights of working people or the material foundations of the polity without courting ruin. Nor is it inevitable that socialism will arrive befroe mountains of misery take humanity’s fortunes seriously backwards. The struggle for socialism on a world scale is however, both humanity’s last best hope and the logical extension of humanity’s progress from barbarism to freedom.

    At the risk of bathos I will deal with the more prosaic matters in a separate post …

    Fran Barlow (e2539a)

  191. EW1, You quote me as follows:

    Isn’t it plain though that someone who speaks in public as if NORAD is coordinating the defence of Alaskan air space from Putin’s rearing head in consultation with her is potty?

    And then continue

    Now, since that’s actually the way things work~your attempt to equate legitimate government functions at both local and national levels with black helicopters is the only thing “potty.”

    I don’t know where you are getting black helicopters from, but here is what people who know say about Palin’s claims …

    NORAD: Sarah Palin has no role in guarding U.S. airspace despite claims in Katie Couric interview

    WASHINGTON – When Russian bombers approach American airspace and U.S. Air Force fighters are scrambled, Sarah Palin’s phone doesn’t ring.

    The Alaska governor has no command authority over the guardians of U.S. airspace despite her recent suggestion otherwise.

    “She doesn’t have any role in that process,” Air Force Maj. Allen Herritage, spokesman for the Alaska North American Aerospace Defense Command, told the Daily News.

    “The authority to launch and respond to a Russian incursion lies with the Alaska NORAD Region commander” – Air Force Lt. Gen. Dana Atkins, he said.

    “It is from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation,” she said.

    Moscow’s bombers have skirted Alaskan airspace 20 times, thugh they have not violated it, during Palin’s governorship, officials said.

    When F-15 and F-22 interceptors scrambled from Elmendorf Air Force Base in Anchorage in response, John McCain’s running mate was not speed-dialed with the news.

    “The commander does not call the governor,” Herritage said.
    The Alaska Air Guard, which Palin oversees, performs airspace-watching missions only under NORAD command, and does not fly interception sorties.

    Palin did get an annual Air Force briefing in February.

    “She asked a lot of questions and seemed generally curious,” recalled Herritage, who was there. “She was very interested in Russian long-range aviation.”

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/09/30/2008-09-30_norad_sarah_palin_has_no_role_in_guardin.html

    Happy to set you straight on this one …

    Fran Barlow (e2539a)

  192. Fran, it was pretty obvious how confused you are when you claimed that the financial crisis was a the consequence of capitalism. Whether you stated that from ignorance or a desire to mislead is irrelevant.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  193. But the driving force behinds this choice was the crazy idea that disaffected Clintonistas would jump ship so a woman could break the glass ceiling

    *laughs* It may have been ONE of the things considered, but she was chosen to shore up McCain’s weaknesses.

    He’s old, she’s young. He’s bi-partisan, she took on her own party. He’s a little iffy on the life issues, she’s unimpeachable by an honest perspective. He’s (sorry to say, and due a lot to war injuries) roughed up and asymmetrical, she’d drop-dead lovely.

    She also supports his strengths.

    They both appeal to the classic “American” ideals– he’s military, she’s a hunter from a (relatively) small town.
    They both support ways to take care of classically “unwanted” children– his family adopted, she didn’t murder her “defective” son.
    They’re both anti-government waste.
    They both show what seems to be genuine emotion– McCain when given a dead soldier’s tags, Palin when greeted in love by Down Syndrome families.
    They are both more America centered than “world” centered.
    (Seriously, every time I hear folks harp about her “not having a passport until X” I’m reminded of the old joke about an older man who was going to France for the first time; he couldn’t find his passport, and the French customs agent got nasty. Finally, the French guy asked if the man had ever been to France before, and the older man answered yes, once. “Well, I’m sure they wanted your passport then, as well!” “Well, son, when I came to drive the Germans out during World War two, I looked and looked but couldn’t find a single Frenchman to show my papers to.)

    Foxfier (15ac79)

  194. SPQR

    The financial crisis is a consequence of one particular set of capitalist arrangements. That’s why those at the top are trying to design new ones to save the capitalist system as a whole.

    For the record, I’m all for them trying their best, because there’s no better learning than watching the experts at work.

    Bismarck once said that anyone who likes eating sausages should stay away from sausage factories, and those who love capitalism, or think they do, may well find the processes now in motion more enlightening than anything that has gone before.

    As a socialist, I’m all for that.

    Fran Barlow (e2539a)

  195. Fran – And as to “choice” you should know that the Bolsheviks were the first government in the world to make abortion legal and to abolish legal harassment of homosexuals.

    And to fire a bullet into the head of everyone who didn’t understand what they were ‘expected’ to do.

    Float along, Fran. Believing in ‘Friedmanite’ failures because the excesses of government have disfigured and distorted the market rings as true as the wife-beater lamenting “But who will take care of her wounds?”

    Also, your conflation of markets with legislators in the Bismarck quote reveals a level of confusion regarding your subject that is either ignorant or dishonest. It was the legislators whom Bismarck described as disgusting, not the markets, and you would like to give these disgusting filth complete control of our lives.

    At this point in history, the old and very tired phrase that socialism hasn’t been tried in the right way, reveals you to be either a dorm room philosopher or a creaky old idiot that didn’t get the memo about the abandonment of that particular ‘meme’.

    Despite your protests, you cannot have socialism without coercion, as Friedman pointed out (one of the reasons the cowardly socialists attempt to discredit his ideas after his death, as they could never mount an effective argument against his ideas when he could dissect its obvious flaws)
    Good luck with the coercion – that can get dicey.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  196. Homi,

    You make an interesting point about Kay Bailey Hutchison. If the coice were simply about appealing to female Clintonistas or at any rate mollifying them, then Kay Bailey Hutchison would have been a better choice. In her 2000 governors campaign, she claimed some districts that had been staunchly Democratic. As you say, she supports Roe v Wade, while being pro-gun. She does have an old “evidence tampering” case in her background, but that seems to be old history.

    She would certainly have seemed a more plausible candidate and been a conservative.

    Of course, some of the Clintonistas are men, and Palin was certainly going to help with that “drop dead gorgeous”, and for their part, the hard core evangelicals couldn’t have swallowed someone who supported Roe v Wade. This for them was a hot button issue.

    But there was a more express point here — if you pick a woman who is qualified and ceredible, can you really be said to be advancing the cause of affirmative action? Isn’t the whole point of affirmative action in their view to pick someone because she is a woman rather than despite someone being a woman?

    KBH would not have been seen as an AA pick. Whatever I think of her views, I’ve heard her speak. She is articulate in her cause and would not look out of place speaking in a room full of Heads of State. She would not now have been dragging down the team. People would not be asking about the vetting process. She’d have held uip better against Biden than we are entitled to think Palin will in the coming debate. McCain would be closer to the game.

    I very much doubt that McCain thought through these issues. Palin had not been on his short list, it is said and his “vetting”, reportedly, had been a quick search on google the Wednesday prior.

    But the far right of the party had come to him urging him not to select Lieberman, Romney, Giuliani or Pawlenti on a variety of grounds, and McCain, who is known for making snap decisions accepted Palin on the basis that having a woman would wedge the Democrats and make “PUMA” something to beat Obama about the head with.

    Fran Barlow (e2539a)

  197. Socialism – This time it will be different!!!!111!!!

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  198. Fran’s comments need some musical accompaniement.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  199. She’d have held uip better against Biden than we are entitled to think Palin will in the coming debate.

    Wow, she’d have awed a Barack fangirl? Dang, that is impressive…..

    Foxfier (15ac79)

  200. To Daley Rocks …

    When the conditions making socialism possible arrive we will actually have socialism as opposed to some pervese caricature of it.

    In the interim, I’ll settle for inclusive governance

    Fran Barlow (e2539a)

  201. At this point in history, the old and very tired phrase that socialism hasn’t been tried in the right way, reveals you to be either a dorm room philosopher or a creaky old idiot that didn’t get the memo about the abandonment of that particular ‘meme’.

    I wonder if Fran would claim that National Socialism would work if practiced in the right way.

    Michael Ejercito (a757fd)

  202. Fran – You are a hoot! Don’t ever change.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  203. To Daley Rocks:

    I’m glad I give yuou pleasure. Spreading a little sunshine is amongst my goals, and at least in that respect, I hope I never change.

    Michael Ejercito says

    At this point in history, the old and very tired phrase that socialism hasn’t been tried in the right way, reveals you to be either a dorm room philosopher or a creaky old idiot that didn’t get the memo about the abandonment of that particular ‘meme’.

    Or someone who has a point that with which you cannot deal substantively.

    I wonder if Fran would claim that National Socialism would work if practiced in the right way.

    No, she wouldn’t. National socialism, apart from being a contradiction in terms, was conceived from the first as an exercise in economic corporatism, political xenophobia and brutal coercion and a return to traditional values.

    This would not be something I’d ever be sympathetic to.

    Fran Barlow (e2539a)

  204. National Socialism is just another way of saying Socialism. It’s different in the way it’s described, but it’s exactly the same. Utter control of every facet of life by the state. “traditional values” may sound a lot like conservatism, but Hitler was pro-life and pro-union and I don’t think he wanted everyone to follow blue laws.

    Socialism is brutal. You can’t take people’s personal freedom, their possessions, their ability to own a business, etc. away from them without threatening them. It’s a matter of degree, not of kind. The ‘right’ socialism is always some hypothetically mild brutality that ignores the fact that normal people will resist.

    Juan (4cdfb7)

  205. Or someone who has a point that with which you cannot deal substantively.

    Cute, Fran. Like all socialists, you believe your ‘reasoning’ to be unto itself, yet remain too cowardly to explain why your ‘utopia’ has failed miserably in every diseased conception.

    If only everyone would just allow you one more chance. Besides, you’re so smart, you know what’s best for all of them. They’ll come around… or else!

    Where’s all that substance? Your argument asserts that socialism is possible without coercion. This is not an argument of substance, it is an argument based in fantasy. From your comments it is obvious that you believe yourself the possessor of superior intellect. It’s quite common among the left – otherwise rationality would take hold and you wouldn’t be a leftist.

    Just make sure you don’t get confused and actually try to practice your fantasies. Children, in their naive and comfortable environment, become convinced of their superiority. Then it’s time for school, and reality comes crashing in.

    Warbling on the web is one thing, removing people’s money and possessions ‘for the greater good’ is another.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  206. Apogee have you checked the polls today?

    Right, so choke on them and die you lying hypocrite fu*k.

    Peter (e70d1c)

  207. Peter – Projection, as always. You are quite the eloquent one, aren’t you? Little too much to drink, Petey? Lefty life not as rewarding as you would like?

    As I said in another thread, you make Phil look like Einstein. Yesterday’s polls were different than today’s, as will be tomorrow’s polls.

    The only important ‘poll’ is the one cast in November. Anyone crowing about polls is both a follower and a loser. Both certainly describe you.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  208. Haha thanks Fran and I take even less seriously the self-proclaimed “socialists” who repeat the mantra of “it just hasn’t been done correctly yet.” You really are hilarious. I’m in stitches that tools like you still repeat this tired old dogma. Thanks for declaring me “ignorant” while passing by on your march to the glorious proletarian revolution! Workers of the world unite!

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  209. Anyone crowing about polls is both a follower and a loser.

    Yeah, you’re probably right. It’s pretty common knowledge that the will of the American people doesn’t matter much anymore. The election is just an ornamental sort of ceremony..you might call it, that makes everyone feel good and warm inside. Hooray for the USA! and all that. At the end of the day it’s the lobbyists and the sleazeball strategists and the manipulative political operatives and the fear mongers that whip the people into accepting what’s best for them.

    And being that Democracy is dead, looks like we’re in for another four years of incompetence and disaster, domestically and internationally, thanks to another hapless Republican tool and his embarrassing running mate and the soul dead people that denigrate a candidate who dares to see a functioning democracy. Screw that guy. And screw anyone who thinks that this election is anything more than a game played by people with lots of money to see who gets to make even more money.

    /sarcasm

    Peter (e70d1c)

  210. It’s pretty common knowledge that the will of the American people doesn’t matter much anymore.

    Yeah, because the highly flexable sampling of a tiny number of Americans is THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE AND SHALL NOT BE OPPOSED!!!!!1!!!11!1

    Welcome to the Republic– not everything comes down to two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.

    Foxfier (15ac79)

  211. YOU PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DRINKING TOO MUCH “YELLOW DAWG” URINE.

    PETE GREGORY (584fb5)

  212. Jealous? Women jealous of Palin? Perhaps some are, personally (as a woman and a mother) I wish Palin was a man so the whole “female” aspect would be set aside.

    No male would drag their child around like she has, on stage etc.

    No male would be “forgiven” for the blank answers she gives.

    No male would be accused as “jealous” for wanting said vp potential to come across succinct in answers and direct, instead of parading around her family, sticking to key “casual” terms (maverick, joe six pack average, etc) and being incapable of answering a direct question. She is a very questionable candidate.

    Palin has lied about her position, (she makes a fair amount more than most middle class people) lied about what she “agonizes” over while sitting at the family dinner table (her family gets free health care in Alaska). She’s worth over 1 million dollars etc. No, it’s not jealousy, it’s perhaps offensive to have a female that is so pathetic. I wish Palin was male, all in all, it would make issues much more clear.

    Beth (3d221d)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.5714 secs.