Patterico's Pontifications

9/15/2008

Obama-Friendly Lehman Bros. to file Chapter 11 bankruptcy

Filed under: 2008 Election,Current Events,Media Bias,Politics — Karl @ 4:30 am

[Posted by Karl]

The New York Times brings words of woe from Wall Street:

In one of the most dramatic days in Wall Street’s history, Merrill Lynch agreed to sell itself on Sunday to Bank of America for roughly $50 billion to avert a deepening financial crisis, while another prominent securities firm, Lehman Brothers, announced it will file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

The humbling moves, which reshape the landscape of American finance, mark the latest chapter in a tumultuous year in which once-proud financial institutions have been brought to their knees as a result of hundreds of billions of dollars in losses because of bad mortgage finance and real estate investments.

***

The Fed, meantime, broadened the terms of its emergency loan program for Wall Street banks, a move that could ultimately put taxpayers’ money at risk.

OpenSecrets.org helpfully charts donations from those associated with the insolvent Lehman firm:

In the current Congress, 271 lawmakers have collected nearly $3 million since 1989, with 72 percent going to Democrats. Democratic presidential candidates and senators Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama top the list of all-time recipients for the company, collecting $410,000 and $395,600 respectively. Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., a member of both the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee and the Senate Finance Committee, hauled in $181,450, while Sen. Chris Dodd, chair of the Senate banking committee, has collected $165,800.

Lehman associates gave only $117,500 to Sen. John McCain, even though he has been in Congress far longer than either Obama or Clinton — as the Obama campaign has been only too eager to remind us.

Lehman’s bankruptcy comes on the heels of the federal government takeover of government-sponsored mortgage buyers Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, whose associates were also big givers to Obama and Clinton.

Barack Obama has extensive ties to the subprime mortgage industry, starting with his National Finance Chairwoman, Chicago billionaire Penny Pritzker.  As I previously noted at Protein Wisdom:

Pritzker was an owner and board member of Superior Bank of Chicago, which went bust in 2001 with over $1 billion in deposits.  Timothy Anderson — who obsessively pursued the late Rep. Henry Hyde (R-IL) over his role in the failure of Clyde Federal Savings & Loan  — has been quoted as saying that “Superior’s owners were to sub-prime lending what Michael Milken was to junk bonds.”

Coincidentally, Obama’s policy proposals have also been pretty subprime mortgage-friendly, perhaps influenced by advisers like Austan Goolsbee (Economic Man of Mystery). 

The establishment media that sought every opportunity to tie the failure of Enron and its executives to George W. Bush has generally failed to note that Barack Obama is neck deep in money from issuers of subprime loans, even as he crusades against predatory mortgage lenders.  Maybe they will get to it when their investigators return from scouring the frozen tundra in Alaska for gossip about Sarah Palin’s family.  But I would not bet any more money on it than I would invest with Lehman Bros.

Update: As Obama wasted no time in blaming “the last eight years of policy” for the current situation, perhaps he ought to re-read Austan Goolsbee’s defense of the subprime mortgage market.  And the media ought to ask whether Obama agrees with one of his top economic advisers about it.

Update x2: Welcome, Malkin readers!

Update x3: McCain, while saying that “these are very, very difficult times,” also said that the “fundamentals of our economy are strong,” which Ben Smith says is “delighting Democrats.”  It should delight all Americans that a major party presidential candidate is not helping to incite a financial panic, but that may not explain the Democrats’ reaction.

Update x4: Insta-lanche!

– Karl

292 Responses to “Obama-Friendly Lehman Bros. to file Chapter 11 bankruptcy”

  1. Damn Christopher cox, MBSs and the desire to make 19 investment houses more in portent than me, the common man

    rawdawgbuffalo (f30fa3)

  2. Pinning this on Democrats is like pinning the tail on the ….oh well. I guess you’re into blindfolds.

    The anti-regulatory fever that Reagan/Bush/Gingrich’/McCain encouraged is the real reason for all the crap in finance that is going on. McCain’s buddy Phil Gramm is culprit number one on my book.

    Take your blindfolds off and you might see what Republicans (and a few Democrats) have done to the economy.

    datadave (eb12a5)

  3. rawdog torrance, that’s a very nice website esp. the dirt behind your ears poster.

    Chris Cox, uber wingnut Gingrich Repuglican??? He’s in control. Oh, my, how long has WBush had time to fix things. Oh, we’d better give him another 4 years to fix things as he needs a little more time.

    MacSAME!!!

    datadave (eb12a5)

  4. Oh, God. datalessdave has found his way here? Oy. Break out the hip boots, kids. It’s gonna get deep.

    Pablo (99243e)

  5. *sigh* and I finally put the waders away from the last nut job…

    Datadave, don’t you find it at all odd that so many prominent democrats (and Obama) have recieved a load of money from these guys? Doesn’t it strike you as even slightly suspicious?

    I ask, merely because the fact that Lay/Enron had donated to Bush and republicans, so many of your side assumed it was all some crafty plan. If that is the case, should not the same logic demand you think the same now of Lehman?

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  6. I’ve linked from the Pub, but for the record I’d like to point out that Dave was already here.

    Good to have you posting on politics again, Karl.

    Dan Collins (4dc2da)

  7. If datadave had actually tried to read rawdawgbuffalo’s rambling, he might have noticed that Bill Clinton is among those implicated in it as well.

    And since dd mentions Phil Gramm, I’ll note that I dealt with that accusation back in April.

    Dan,

    It’s not a regular gig, just an occasional thing.

    Karl (1b4668)

  8. It is quite amusing to see Democrats try so hard to pretend that their party is not in the pocket of the financial industry.

    Hey, there is a reason that Joe Biden is called “The Senator from MBNA”.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  9. scott, not a problem. Those are called New Democrats, or Democrats wishing they could inherit money like Republicans. Hey, Democratic Leadership Council and all that…but Republicans come only in one type these days with slight variations: Neo con, Libertarian econ. social conservative, theocon with variations on the same mean theme. McCain/Palin isn’t a big tent of ideas but a consistent one. Democrats? a rats nest or bird’s nest of ideas kept from dissemination by the uber antagonistic right wing. We most now wait for the melt down of a Conservative dominated economic sphere before change can happen.

    Many of the hedge funders and ultra rich are Democrats simply because Democrats have a history of growing the economy while Republicans lead us into Recessions and Depressions. Economic growth rates are 2 to 1 better under Democratic Presidencies. Democrats understand Keynesian economics, while Republicans are still stuck on Libertarian Econ. ideas of the early 1800s.

    Karl, yeah, Jeff, the thinnist of skins won’t let me access that site…..but I don’t think you dealt with the Enron loophole much in your defense of Gramm. And Clinton’s agreements with Gingrich’s congress was sort of egregious but his back was against the wall i recall, impeachment and all that. And Secretary Rubin and some guy named larry summers had Republican’lite ideas too. Plenty of fingers to point and plenty of targets of both parties for following the Deregulatory, Markets are always Ritht cool aid. Look how we’ve encouraged battery technology…we haven’t. WSJ today or yesterday bemoans the fact that US companies lost all their techno edge on batteries just when GM needs a game-saving Volt car and lots of batteries which Asia has all the edge..thanx to research and development cuts under Bush and the Republican congresses that have dominated for the last two decades.

    datadave (eb12a5)

  10. Yeah, Biden was a poor choice IMO. Can we say Obama/Kerry might have been better?

    datadave (eb12a5)

  11. Many of the hedge funders and ultra rich are Democrats simply because Democrats have a history of growing the economy while Republicans lead us into Recessions and Depressions.

    You missed the late ’70s, early 80′s, didn’t you…

    Hedge funders are morons to be Dems, since the Dems want to tax the living crap out of Cap Gains and inheritances…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  12. a rats nest or bird’s nest of ideas kept from dissemination by the uber antagonistic right wing.

    Kept from dissemination?

    You must not watch the news much… I can swing a cat without catching some group of protestors, and the only time I see violence is when they start it (and usually, the cops do nothing).

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  13. datadave demonstrating his vast knowledge of electric cars, as he so clearly has no clue what he’s talking about.

    The “Enron loophole” has to do with oil speculation, and has not even a remotely logical connection to the subprime mortgage market (though said loophole was also signed into law by Clinton).

    The Enron connection exists only in the way the media will ignore the extent to which Obama and the Democrats are tied to the current situation, in stark contrast to the way they tied Bush and the GOP to Enron.

    Karl (1b4668)

  14. Karl,

    Thanks for the post.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  15. Karl – Good to see you active here. You’ll notice a lot of friends.

    Fannie and Freddie were a regular Democratic swamp, but they had to give to both parties.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  16. daleyrocks,

    This is not going to be a regular gig for me. And you’re certainly correct that the GSEs, like the big Wall St. firms, gave money to both sides. However, as I fully expected Obama to get on his high horse about this today, it’s worth noting his hypocrisy — and that of the MSM.

    Karl (1b4668)

  17. Excellent post and it’s good to see you here.

    DRJ (8b9d41)

  18. Big drop at the opening bell on Wall Street. But there’s been a slight rebound.

    Patterico (51db45)

  19. Very glad to find your post this morning, Karl.

    SarahW (a6e80b)

  20. I ask, merely because the fact that Lay/Enron had donated to Bush and republicans, so many of your side assumed it was all some crafty plan.

    Ken Lay was a big supporter of Democrat Ann Richards and got interested in Bush only after he defeated her for the governorship of Texas.

    When Governor Bush–now President Bush–decided to run for the governor’s spot, [there was] a little difficult situation–I ‘d worked very closely with Ann Richards also, the four years she was governor.

    One problem with Google searches on topics like this is that the left wing blogs have flooded the search engines to game the system but PBS is still fairly straight.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  21. Conservatives did everything they could to deregulate finance, so it makes sense that one would look for evidence of less-principled motivations. By contrast, Obama has proposed regulating the finance sector. So I guess I don’t understand the point of bringing up donations from the sector. I guess it tells us that some politicians can get donations without it being a qui pro quo. If the point of the post, then, is to highlight obama’s integrity, it was a good post.

    jpe (b7f2d7)

  22. Leave it to you Karl, to come in, forget to take your boots off after you’ve stepped in a steaming pile of datadave, and track it all over the carpet.

    Of course, I echo those who say it’s good to see a Karl Post again.

    alppuccino (011b30)

  23. jpe,

    Obama’s approach to the subprime mortagage mess was the most lax of the major Democratic candidates, according to The Nation.

    Karl (1b4668)

  24. “So I guess I don’t understand the point of bringing up donations from the sector.”

    jpe – Leaving it right there would have been a wise thing.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  25. I ask, merely because the fact that Lay/Enron had donated to Bush and republicans, so many of your side assumed it was all some crafty plan. If that is the case, should not the same logic demand you think the same now of Lehman?

    Ooo, that’s good. It was all part of Enron’s crafty plan to drive their company into meltdown and put their CFO Skilling in the iron bar hotel.

    No, dumbass, it was their “plan” to game the energy markets and line the pockets of their top executives, until they ran aground on reality.

    And now Lehman and Merrill are completing their super-double secret plot to help elect Obama by killing their own companies?

    It would be irresponsible not to speculate, right?

    Man, I need my own tinfoil hat just to protect my brain from the stupid waves coming out of you guys.

    Joe Max (5befda)

  26. Mike K,

    There is a lot the press did not like to report about Enron and Democrats.

    Karl (1b4668)

  27. I guess Joe Max won’t be needing any straw men for Halloween decor.

    Karl (1b4668)

  28. “I need my own tinfoil hat just to protect my brain from the stupid waves coming out of you guys.”

    Joey, those waves of stupid are actually coming out of your toaster, the one you discuss world politics with every morning.

    Dmac (e639cc)

  29. Karl! Good to see you pop up again. Heyyyy…nice digs.

    S. Weasel (ed7c8f)

  30. Protein-lanche!!! Yay!

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  31. hf,

    I sent you an e-mail ’bout it.

    Separately, I also note that Jeff G seems to be laboring under the misguided notion that I am “working closely” with Patterico and Ace. Patterico was among those gracious enough to offer me some place to post, and was cool with me not contributing on any sort of regular basis. And iirc, my involvement with Ace extends to me sending him two P-shops by e-mail, as other readers did.

    Karl (f07e38)

  32. As always, good stuff Karl.

    happyfeet !!!

    JD (5f0e11)

  33. Anyone interested in the Fannie/Freddie political/financial scams, check out AEI: http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.22514/pub_detail.asp

    Moultrie (0c2c01)

  34. Before blaming Bush, I think that the liberal Congress of the last 2 years needs to take some responsibility for some of the economic problems. They want to raise taxes on everybody and everything porduced in the US. There is more freedom and less regulations to open and run a businesss in communist China. Get rid of the overbearing government taxes and regulations and the businesses and economy will be able to grow again. Obama’s taxes will work as well as Jimmy Carter’s did.

    rk (ab12c4)

  35. Crap, it’s a Weasel… Hide the shiney stuff!!

    :)

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  36. “Obama Friendly”
    Oh jezus
    Bear Stearns Lehman, Merrill, AIG, Wachovia…
    A meltdown of the financial markets.

    Of course Dems bear some of responsibility, but it all begins with McCain’s number one economics advisor Phil Graham: the father of all this deregulatory bullshit that the Democratic leadership signed out on, to their shame.
    The democrats bought snake oil, peddled by your heroes.

    here
    And watch the “video of the day”
    It’s Nouriel Roubini on Bloomberg, and he lays it out for you.

    JAR (6b0755)

  37. 2 or 3 hundred banks will do down

    JAR (6b0755)

  38. In that case, you’d better take those piles of money out of your mattress and get the hell out of the country, JAR.

    Dmac (e639cc)

  39. JAR,

    Already dealt with the Gramm talking point in #7.

    Karl (f07e38)

  40. Here is a 1997 leftist article praising the Democrats and the Clinton administration in particular for forcing banks to offer loans to people who were not qualified by traditional standards.

    Baffling quotes (emphasis mine):

    In fact, the CRA is one of the most remarkable success stories of the 1990s. Under strong pressure from a second wave of grassroots activism that began ten years ago, many banks have recognized the potential for profitable business in neighborhoods that they had written off without a second thought not so long ago.

    … CRA opponents claimed that it requires risky loans that could undermine a bank’s profitability and threaten its survival. Actually, the reverse is closer to the truth. The 1980s were marked by massive speculative lending to wealthy real estate developers and get-rich-quick schemers that resulted in the failure of more than two thousand banks and S&Ls. Yet not a single bank failure has been caused by making too many bad loans to disadvantaged borrowers.

    Recently, Federal Reserve Board researchers found “no evidence of lower profitability” at banks that specialize in mortgage lending to lower-income borrowers and neighborhoods and, in a nationwide survey by the Kansas City Fed, 98% of banks reported that their CRA lending was profitable. A recent investigation by the Comptroller of the Currency found that affordable home loans had “the same level of losses” as standard mortgages.

    The swell of grassroots support overwhelmed pressure from industry lobbyists and produced unanimous opposition by congressional Democrats to every proposal that would have weakened CRA. In addition, the Clinton administration never wavered from an early pledge to veto any bill containing such provisions.

    I want to know who those congressional Democrats were. I want names.

    I’d pay good money to know what Joe Biden said at the time about this. Surely the Congressional Record can shed some light on this shadowy subject…

    Alan (e60fdf)

  41. Ignore the babbling Thorazine. That is all.

    ["Thor's" comment was deleted because it appears to have been a fake -- and i try to be fair, even to Thor. --K]

    David R. Block (5f4d65)

  42. McCain This Morning: “The Fundamentals Of Our Economy Are Strong”

    In fact the fundamentals of the economy suck,

    Johnny Mac: “The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should”

    The truth for once. But then he lies about it.

    JAR (6b0755)

  43. JAR,

    Already dealt witth the “fundamentals” talking point in Update x3.

    Tell me, what percentage of the economy is the housing sector? I know, but I would love to know whether you do.

    Karl (bb2603)

  44. It’s not sub-prime mortgages that are the problem, it’s the repackaging of them and selling and reselling of bundles of them as “low risk” assets.
    Watch the Roubini video.
    this one too

    going to the beach.

    JAR (6b0755)

  45. Brave Sir JAR runs away. As noted in the original post, the packaging of which JAR complains was pioneered by folks like Penny Pritzker’s Superior Bank. So if you want to point that finger, point it at Obama’s National Finance Chair.

    Karl (bb2603)

  46. I’ve been waiting for someone to bring up the Superior Bank failure in 2001. True story: the Senate Banking Committee was holding a hearing on this bank failure on 9/11.

    rockmom (e42807)

  47. Yeah right.

    It was clearly Obama’s fault since he accepted money from Lehman.

    Pay attention here wingnuts.

    This is simply the first leak in the dam. Many more to follow.

    Check GoldmanSachs, Morgan Stanley, Citi, WaMu, AIG, MNI, ABK for a start.

    This is conservatism and trickle down economics at it’s finest. It doesn’t work.

    Give the richest the most tax breaks and the least regulation…

    And they steal it. It does not trickle down to the middle class.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  48. Every two term Republican in the last 80 years who isn’t Ike had some kind of a severe meltdown in the financial system.

    Coincidence?

    I think not.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  49. Top Economist: Americans Should Worry About Bank Deposits if Congress Doesn’t Act

    But Americans are justified to be worried, says Nouriel Roubini, of NYU’s Stern School and RGE Monitor, who notes there is already a “slow-motion run on retail banks” occurring nationwide.

    That “run” could accelerate as people realize the FDIC fund has about $50 billion to “insure” about $1 trillion in assets at the nation’s financial institutions, says Roubini. “They’re going to run out of money” unless Congress acts soon to recapitalize the FDIC.

    In addition, the recent spike in number of banks on the FDIC’s “troubled list” is only through June, meaning even that inflated number understates the problem.

    The intent here isn’t to add to people’s anxieties, but Roubini is one of the few market watchers to correctly predict the severity of this ongoing credit crisis. If nothing else, he says people with accounts exceeding $100,000 in value should spread their money – and the risk – among different firms.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/56994/Top-Economist-Americans-Should-Worry-About-Bank-Deposits-if-Congress-Doesn%27t-Act?tickers=LEH,MER,BAC,AIG,WM,^DJI,^GSPC

    But as usual, I’m sure this is good news for republicans.

    Good God, Americans are stupid. And they are reaping what they have sown.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  50. > 44. It’s not sub-prime mortgages that are the problem
    Hang on a sec. Large amounts of money was loaned to large numbers of people who now cannot afford to pay it back. No matter how you remix those loans in other securities, they still represent losses. That IS the core problem.

    Alan (e60fdf)

  51. Karl, PLEASE get the quote from McCain right. He did not say “the fundamentals of our economy are strong. Here is what he actually said:

    “Our workers are the most innovative, the hardest-working, the best-skilled, most productive, most competitive in the world. That’s the American worker. And my opponents may disagree, but those fundamentals — the American worker and their innovation, their entrepreneurship, the small business, those are the fundamentals of America, and I think they’re strong. But they are being threatened today.”

    And jharp – Bill Clinton signed the legislation that created a weak regulator for Fannie and Freddie and he appointed a weak man to run the agency. It was on Clinton’s watch that Fannie Mae under its uber-Democrat CEO Franklin Raines cooked its books and hid hundreds of millions in losses in order to maximize executive bonuses, while massively growing its portfolio. Clinton’s HUD Secretary, Andrew Cuomo, thought it was more important to sue gun manufacturers than to properly regulate Fannie and Freddie. His FHA Commissioner was an academic from Harvard who had no clue about subprime lending or how FHA programs might have been a better alternative.

    When the Bush Administration attempted to enact reforms of mortgage disclosures and the closing process that would have saved consumers billions and prevented many of the abuses that happened later, Democrats in Congress led the charge to force Bush to withdraw the rule. Even today they are still trying to stop the enactment of a very weak substitute to this regulation.

    Democrats never wanted any serious regulation of mortgage lending.

    rockmom (e42807)

  52. Yeah right, trickle down failed miserably in the 80′s during the Reagan years!!!! And European want to actually work hard like Obama supporters. Stand in line for your healthcare, government appointed hybrid car, your government appointed home, your IQ, …..

    rk (ab12c4)

  53. jharp,

    You ask us to check GoldmanSachs, Morgan Stanley, Citi, etc.

    Yep, they are all on Obama’s Top Contibutors list, along with UBS AG. Some of them have also given to McCain, but less.

    And I guess you missed the tech bubble on Clinton’s watch. Some irrational exuberance on your part.

    When that wears off, I’m sure you’ll be able to tell us what Obama did to try to prevent the current situation on Wall Street, and explain why the Michael Milken of subrime packaging is Obama’s finance chair.

    Karl (bb2603)

  54. rockmom,

    Thanks for posting the full quote. I was merely noting the emerging lefty talking-point, and how it is either ignorant about the scale of the problem, or subtly rooting for a financial panic.

    Karl (bb2603)

  55. Yeesh, I didn’t even notice the author tag. Good to see you blogging, Karl. How about them polls, huh?

    Pablo (99243e)

  56. “And jharp – Bill Clinton signed the legislation that created a weak regulator for Fannie and Freddie and he appointed a weak man to run the agency”

    I was at first surprised that the wingnuts weren’t blaming it on Clinton but I guess I just need to be patient.

    News flash, buddy.

    Clinton has’nt been President for 8 years.

    This is on George Bush’s watch. Please share with me why he did nothing to address this problem for the past 8 years.

    Unless you would like to count blowing $1 trillion on the Iraq goodwill mission as doing something about it.

    And I wonder if that $ 1 trillion might kinda sorta been able to put to a better use fixing OUR (the U.S.A’s) financial weaknesses.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  57. jharp, JAR

    Why hasn’t the Democratic Congress closed the “Gramm Loophole?”

    What is Obama’s plan for dealing with the current “credit crisis?”

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  58. When that wears off, I’m sure you’ll be able to tell us what Obama did to try to prevent the current situation on Wall Street

    He shares the same blame as the other 100 Senators.

    Obama is not the President. Bush is and it happened on Bush’s watch.

    And what did McCain do?

    jharp (f4bed7)

  59. “Why hasn’t the Democratic Congress closed the “Gramm Loophole?” ”

    I don’t know. Why don’t you tell me.

    And why is Gramm still McCain’s economic advisor?

    jharp (f4bed7)

  60. Johnny Mac: “The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should”

    And yet he’s head and shoulders above Obama in such understanding. McCain is a longtime member of the Senate Commerce Committee and was either the Ranking Member or the Chair from 1997-2005. What’s Obama’s experience?

    Pablo (99243e)

  61. And why is Gramm still McCain’s economic advisor?

    He isn’t. Try to keep up, won’t you?

    Pablo (99243e)

  62. This is quite amusing to me and the deeper I dig the worse I find things to be.

    Bank of America has lost $36 billion in shareholder wealth with their bailout of Merill Lynch.

    (5 billion outstanding shares down $6 a share)

    No need to worry. It’s only folks retirement savings.

    Time to privatize Social Security as per Bush and McCain.

    Then Wall street can steal even more.

    But don’t worry it’ll trcikle down to the middle class.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  63. It’s like arguing with a bot.

    Techie (84f4ca)

  64. JAR and jharpy appear to be up to their normal nonsense.

    JD (5f0e11)

  65. jharp wants an explanation, so here it is.

    The Financial Services Modernization Act (FSMA, a/k/a Gramm-Leach-Bliley), signed by Pres. Clinton, was passed on largely a party-line vote in the Senate, but with some 155 Democratic votes in the House (iirc).

    Here’s why. The Senate version of the bill would have cut back on the requirements imposed by the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA), which is mentioned above by Alan in comment 40. The House version of the bill retained those requirements, and that is what ended up in the final version of the law. Accordingly, for a financial institutiion to take advantage of FSMA, it and all of its subsidiaries must have at least a satisfactory CRA rating. In short, the deregulation was directly tied to CRA lending, which is correlated in no small part to the subprime market.

    And I’ve already dealt with the rote Gramm talking point twice, but here’s a direct link to Gramm’s take, in which he notes that the financial services industry was well on the way to packaging risky loans before the FSMA.

    Karl (bb2603)

  66. “And I’ve already dealt with the rote Gramm talking point twice, but here’s a direct link to Gramm’s take.”

    I went and read your artcle and the title says it all.

    “I didn’t cause the sub prime crises” by Phill Gramm.

    And the next article was by O.J. Simpson titled I did not kill my wife.

    Do you gentleman not understand this is not a sub prime crises.

    Your theory on the FSMA and CSA is hooey but just for arguments sake let’s assume it is not.

    Why didn’t Geroge Bush do anything about it?

    jharp (f4bed7)

  67. McCAIN(on Phil Gramm): one of the smartest people in the world on economics

    As we watch the financial sector move into the next stage of melt down, here’s a reminder of what Gramm did to earn himself a spot as not only a Real Smart Person, but McCain’s top economic advisor.

    [Gramm]was co-sponsor of the 1999 law that allowed commercial banks to get into investment banking. And the fact that Gramm was a prime architect of a 2000 bill that kept regulators’ hands off of “credit default swaps,” an exotic financial tool which helped enable the bundling and selling of crappy subprime mortgages to investors.

    In other words, Gramm was at the top of the list of people rushing to give the banking industry “more flexibility” and relieve them of all those nasty regulations that kept them from showing the kind of constraint that Wall Street always shows when nobody is looking.

    The value of the entire U.S. Treasuries market: $4.5 trillion.

    The value of the entire mortgage market: $7 trillion.

    The size of the U.S. stock market: $22 trillion.

    The size of the credit default swap market last year: $45 trillion.

    [Risk expert] CHRISTOPHER WHALEN: They are the most hideous kind of speculation. To have a federally insured bank like JPMorgan as the largest dealer in this market, to me says we don’t know what we’re doing anymore, and we don’t understand the difference between real work — real economic activity — and something that’s essentially wasting.

    Phil Gramm saw to it that banks could not only become involved in risky investments, they could buy and sell those investments to each other, creating a speculative shadow economy many times larger than the real economy, and Gramm made sure that all this activity was completely unregulated.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  68. jharp, how about you deal with substance, instead of ad hominem atatcks on Gramm? How about you explain why Gramm is wrong on the substance? How about you explain why my comment about the linkage between FSMA and CRA is hooey? How about you explain what Bush was supposed to do about it and what Barack obama ever proposed to do about it?

    Karl (bb2603)

  69. jharp,

    How ’bout some links to go with that kludgy cut-and-past job you just did?

    And how about you explain why Obama still has one of the people who pioneered crashing a bank with the swaps you mention as his finance chair?

    Karl (bb2603)

  70. I take back that George Bush did nothing in anticipation of today’s meltdown.

    He actually pushed for legislation and signed such legislation into law that specifically enabled the Wall Street crooks to steal middle class America’s retirement savings.

    Hecka job! GOP.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  71. “[Gramm]was co-sponsor of the 1999 law that allowed commercial banks to get into investment banking. And the fact that Gramm was a prime architect of a 2000 bill that kept regulators’ hands off of “credit default swaps,” an exotic financial tool which helped enable the bundling and selling of crappy mortgages to investors.”

    The gist of the problem is right above.

    And believe me it was no accident. They knew exactly what they doing.

    And keep in mind that no money was “lost”.

    It just changed hands.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  72. jharp obviously doesn’t want to cop that he just copied a dKos diary that he probably does not understand. Of course, if he linked it it would have been obvious that there is no direct tie to provision jharp mentions and Gramm, any more than there is to Bill Clinton or the 150+ Democrats who voted for it.

    Karl (bb2603)

  73. jharp — if allowing commercial banks to get into investment banking was such a bad idea, why is it that commercial banks are generally thriving and investment banks are looking for bailouts?

    You do understand the difference between the two, don’t you?

    WLS (26b1e5)

  74. WLS,

    jharp is not going to find that in a dKos diary, so we’ll be back to square one with some other random, unsupported assertion.

    Karl (bb2603)

  75. You guys have no shame. What we’re seeing right here, the meltdown and the panic is the direct responsibility of a President who called Ken LAy a good friend. This is what happens to the whole economy when you ENRON-IZE it. This is what happens when the Republican’s in COngress have been doing good business with slimeballs like Tom Delay and Jack Abramoff for a decade. This huge stinking pile of turd is directly from the Republican party. President and Congress. Period. End of Story. They messed up bigtime. No prepare to take you punishment and just desserts.

    No more power, done, over good bye. Incompetence cannot be allowed to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes.

    Peter (e70d1c)

  76. And keep in mind that no money was “lost”.

    It just changed hands.

    No kidding. Next you’ll be telling us that water is wet. Your ability to peer through a millstone has me astounded, jharp.

    nk (189a81)

  77. Here’s an idea:

    Let’s get American workers to increase their productivity even more than they already have in the last twenty years, making sure that none of the resulting windfall goes to anyone but these desperate bankers and CEOs and Paris Hiltons who need it the most. Then let’s give the bankers and CEOs and Paris Hiltons a whopping big tax cut—it’s their due after all and we should show them our gratitude —while we raise Social Security taxes on workers, eliminate overtime pay, and cut pensions and benefits.

    Has this been tried this before? I think it’s a winner!

    (H/T to s/n)

    The Other Ed (8285f1)

  78. Nobody’s putting a gun to your head to force you to either invest or borrow, Other Ed. There’s an old saying, “Bulls make money and bears make money but pigs don’t make money”. Don’t buy a house you cannot afford, or an HD TV for that that matter, at an interest rate you cannot afford, or invest at a rate of return with the concommitant (slightly higher) risk of loss that you cannot afford.

    nk (189a81)

  79. jharp — if allowing commercial banks to get into investment banking was such a bad idea, why is it that commercial banks are generally thriving and investment banks are looking for bailouts?

    You do understand the difference between the two, don’t you?

    I do. one is regualted, heavily, by several government agencies, whereas the others are de-regulated (thanks Phil Gramm AND Robert Rubin) and are smoking holes. Proving again, short term greed and laissez faire economics don’t work.

    Good to see Karl didn’t get any less confrontational a guest poster here. Meanwhile, he still thinks evidence is linking to a prior post HE wrote on PW. [Sigh] The more things change.

    PS I cannot believe Karl wasn’t able to blame the financial crisis on Black Liberation Theology….maybe in a follow up post , eh, karl?

    timb (a83d56)

  80. What did Lehmann get in exchange for all the money they gave to Obama?

    Evil Pundit (843b74)

  81. Here’s an idea:

    The Other Ed can wake up to discover that Barack Obama already voted this year to raise taxes on people making as little as $31,850 annually. And that those bankers and CEOs have poured millions into Obama’s campaign.

    Karl (bb2603)

  82. Proving again, short term greed and laissez faire economics don’t work for stupid, greedy people.

    nk (189a81)

  83. jharp — if allowing commercial banks to get into investment banking was such a bad idea, why is it that commercial banks are generally thriving and investment banks are looking for bailouts?

    And of course, it’s a commercial bank, B of A, that just absorbed the broken investment bank, Merril Lynch.

    Why is that a bad thing jharp?

    Pablo (99243e)

  84. timb,

    Of course, posts I wrote at PW are ultimately backed by source material that timmy can’t be bothered to read.

    I will give credit to timmy for admitting that Democrats in the Clinton era were also involved in the deregulation that Democrats are now trying to pretend are the fault of the GOP in the Bush era. Maybe he should fire off an indignant e-mail to Camp Obama about the partisan hypocrisy Obama has been spewing today.

    Karl (bb2603)

  85. Evil Pundit,

    What did Lehmann get in exchange for all the money they gave to Obama?

    Try #23, for starters.

    Karl (bb2603)

  86. Timmah!, Karl sources the shit out of his posts, and unlike Greenwald, his links actually say what he says they do. Try arguing with the substance instead of slinging ad homs. Are you capable of that?

    Pablo (99243e)

  87. Karl should wake up and stop relying on blogs for misinformation. That Obama will raise taxes lie has been declared a lie: http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/619/

    The Other Ed (8285f1)

  88. The Other Ed should learn to distinguish between what Obama says he’s going to do if elected and what he already voted to do in February. I tend to judge pols by their records, not their pretty promises. Otherwise, I would still be waiting for the tax cut Bill promised in 1992.

    Karl (bb2603)

  89. Obama also says he going to stop the oceans from rising and heal the planet. That, according to The Other Ed, makes it a fact.

    Pablo (99243e)

  90. And of course, it’s a commercial bank, B of A, that just absorbed the broken investment bank, Merril Lynch.

    Why is that a bad thing jharp?

    Ask the Bank of America shareholders who lost $36 billion today.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  91. #

    jharp — if allowing commercial banks to get into investment banking was such a bad idea, why is it that commercial banks are generally thriving and investment banks are looking for bailouts?

    You do understand the difference between the two, don’t you?

    I do. one is regualted, heavily, by several government agencies, whereas the others are de-regulated (thanks Phil Gramm AND Robert Rubin) and are smoking holes. Proving again, short term greed and laissez faire economics don’t work.

    Good to see Karl didn’t get any less confrontational a guest poster here. Meanwhile, he still thinks evidence is linking to a prior post HE wrote on PW. [Sigh] The more things change.

    PS I cannot believe Karl wasn’t able to blame the financial crisis on Black Liberation Theology….maybe in a follow up post , eh, karl?

    Comment by timb — 9/15/2008 @ 1:06 pm

    Thank you timb.

    Well put.

    I gotta run but will be back for more later.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  92. jharp — if allowing commercial banks to get into investment banking was such a bad idea, why is it that commercial banks are generally thriving and investment banks are looking for bailouts?

    You do understand the difference between the two, don’t you?

    And I might add that commercial bank deposits are guaranteed by the federal government.

    But I’m sure you knew that too, WLS.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  93. I had a nice swim. Back to work:

    FactCheckYourLying Ass.com says:

    The McCain campaign falsely claims that Obama voted to raise income taxes on individuals earning “as little as $32,000 per year.”
    The McCain campaign claims that Obama voted to raise income taxes on individuals who earn as little as $32,000 per year. That’s wrong.
    The resolution Obama voted for would not have increased taxes on any single taxpayer making less than $41,500 per year in total income, or any couple making less than $83,000. The $32,000 figure is approximately the taxable income of a single person making $41,500 per year, after all deductions and exclusions.
    Obama’s vote (for a non-binding budget bill) does not change the fact that his own tax plan would provide a tax cut of $502 for a non-married taxpayer earning $35,000.

    And Donald Luskin wants to keep you Poor and Stupid.
    Why else would he publish this in the WaPo yesterday?

    “A NATION OF EXAGGERATORS
    Quit Doling Out That Bad-Economy Line”

    Did any of you listen to Roubini?
    i didn’t think so.

    JAR (08f6d2)

  94. You don’t really understand the stock market, do you, jharp? BofA picked up ML at a fire sale price. It’s a sweet deal for them, and their stock will do just fine.

    Pablo (99243e)

  95. jharp —

    Give the richest the most tax breaks and the least regulation…
    – The less-well-off face more regulation, do they?

    Time to privatize Social Security as per Bush and McCain.
    – That’s right. Time to completely privatize it, as in removing government from the equation entirely.

    – BTW, it’s been fun watching Karl kick your ass today.

    Icy Truth (db1823)

  96. JAR,

    I stand corrected on the difference between $32,000 and $41,500 per year, after all deductions and exclusions.

    It also doesn’t change that Obama is happy to vote for tax increases while promising tax cuts.

    Karl (bb2603)

  97. “thanks Phil Gramm AND Robert Rubin”
    Oh my god he’s blaming a democrat for something!
    He’s being disloyal to his party!!

    The weakness of the democrats is that they actually care about policy (even when they’re wrong).
    The weakness of the republicans is that they don’t give a shit.
    Both those things are also strengths of course.
    This election is not about issues”

    “Rick Davis, campaign manager for John McCain’s presidential bid, insisted that the presidential race will be decided more over personalities than issues during an interview with Post editors this morning.
    “This election is not about issues,” said Davis.

    For the country;s sake, I hope he’s wrong. But you assholes are praying that he’s right. That’s what’s so disgusting.

    JAR (08f6d2)

  98. JAR has to go swimming (next time wade out farther) and immediately jharp shows up. jharp has to run and immediately JAR is back . . . and this is NOT the first time this has happened.

    Icy Truth (db1823)

  99. Good post, Karl. I keep wondering how the Chicago thieves coordinate their activities. Did Pritzker spot Obama through his work for Rezko? Have you seen any Auchi/Pritkzer links? It appears that Mansour noted Obama’s lack of ethics early on but I haven’t seen a definitive date or connection. I keep waiting for a nice bundle containing Pritzker, al-Sammarae, Auchi, Rezko and Mansour to be unwrapped.

    Rick Ballard (14757e)

  100. I heart…
    Chris Wallace!!!?

    WALLACE: All right. Let’s take a look at one of your campaign’s recent ads. Here it is.
    (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
    NARRATOR: Life in the spotlight must be grand. But for the rest of us, times are tough. Obama voted to raise taxes on people making just $42,000.
    (END VIDEO CLIP)
    WALLACE: Mr. Davis, especially that last sentence, isn’t that misleading?
    DAVIS: Nothing misleading about it. Barack Obama voted for a budget resolution that would have increased taxes on people, families, making $42,000. What’s misleading about that?
    WALLACE: Well, in fact, it only would be single people making $42,000. It would be families making over $60,000. But Obama — as you say, he voted for a non-binding budget resolution that overall talked about doing away with the Bush tax cuts. In fact, he says, that’s not his tax plan, that he supports a middle-class tax cut. And I want to put something up on the screen. The non-partisan Tax Policy Center says someone making $37,000 a year under Obama’s plan would get a tax cut of $892. Under McCain’s plan, they get a tax cut of $113.

    JAR (08f6d2)

  101. JAR,

    Sorry to burst your bubble, but every election is about more than issues. Every election is also about record, character, experience and various other intangibles. Davis was merely stating a truism that shows up in polls cycle after cycle.

    To take an anti-McCain example, I don’t believe his current “security first” position on illegal immigration is his actual position on illegal immigration. It’s not supported by his record, or McCain’s stubbornness. Conversely, I judge Obama’s position on the issue in part by remembering that he was a deciding vote on the Big Labor-backed Dorgan amendments that killed the McCain-Kennedy bill. So I take those things into account when evaluating the candidates, rather than live in the pretend world where candidates are judged solely by whatever paper they push during a campaign to get our votes.

    Karl (bb2603)

  102. JAR,

    I see you posted while I was writing, so let me again note there is a difference between what pols promise and how they vote. Chris Wallace can pretend that promises are more important to votes. I’m not obliged to be that dumb.

    Karl (bb2603)

  103. Why is it that the folks like harpy squeal like a stuck pig when corporations make a profit, and like today, whine when others do not survive in the market?

    Earth destroyed – women, minorities, children, and now the middle class, hardest hit.?

    JD (5f0e11)

  104. More Fun about Buildings and Food
    From an actual economist

    JAR (08f6d2)

  105. Nice to see your writing on news and politics again, Karl. Do you do any political commentary at your own site, or just music and entertainment pieces?

    And, were you a member of Claude-Pate?

    Bob (99fc1b)

  106. Bob,

    The answers are no and no, though I’m still in touch with them. Pate did a reunion in 2003, and a lot of that circle was bemoaning falling out of touch with indie music, etc., so it’s just a resource for that stuff.

    Karl (bb2603)

  107. #102

    JD WRITES “Why is it that the folks like harpy squeal like a stuck pig when corporations make a profit, and like today, whine when others do not survive in the market?”

    I can answer that one.

    We squeal like a stuck pig when corporations make large profits and don’t pay the tax percentages that we pay because of untold loopholes. They create extreme personal wealth and create below middle class jobs at a very small rate.

    We whine when others don’t survive when they are unregulated, cost thousands of jobs, and are sometimes bailed out on our dime.

    Privatize the gains……. socialize the losses. This is a mantra I can’t get behind, non of us should.

    Oiram (983921)

  108. “Privatize the gains……. socialize the losses.”

    Like what happened to those blood sucking running dog capitalist Lehman stockholders yesterday. Somebody should make them really pay for that.

    Rick Ballard (14757e)

  109. Oiram – Explain all of the caterwalling about Exxon when they pay billions more in taxes than they make in profits.

    It seems like y’all do not like capitalism.

    JD (5f0e11)

  110. Gains are incentives that make people work, Oiram. The problem here was overwhelming greed.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  111. #108, Rich, someone will pay for it. 25,000 employees in New York will pay for it.

    I don’t work there, but they might be buying what I’m making a living off of.

    Greed in this country is coming to a head.

    Oiram (983921)

  112. #109, JD please don’t confuse the taxes we pay on our gas as the taxes Exxon pays on their profits.

    I would love to see where oil corporations paid more in taxes than the record amounts they have been making in profits.

    Oiram (983921)

  113. Thanks you DRJ you are absolutely right.

    Unchecked greed is the making of another depression.

    Oiram (983921)

  114. I understand that business is business. What I don’t understand is when the CEOs of Fannie and Fredie et al completely f-up and still walk away with money. If I completely screw up at work, I lose my job, my license and have to pay a fine. These fellows walk off with money falling out of their pockets. Isn’t there something really wrong with that? I know this is a wee off topic but still…

    paul from fl (4dd8c4)

  115. Exxon paid $105 billion in taxes in 2007, more than two-and-a-half times as much as it made in profit.

    Karl (1b4668)

  116. Of course, an even simpler response to Oiram would be that in reality, corporations do not pay taxes. Taxes not paid by shareholders represent a business cost passed on to the consumer.

    Karl (1b4668)

  117. “They create extreme personal wealth and create below middle class jobs at a very small rate.”

    Oiram – Who do corporations create extreme wealth for in your opinion? Management and shareholders?

    When management screws up, don’t shareholders, these days mostly institutions, force management changes?

    The tax loopholes you love to whine about but don’t understand, who’s responsibility is it to monotor and close the abuse of those? That would be Congress would it not? What is the effective corporate tax rate in the U.S. compared to the rest of the developed world Oiram?

    How can you know so little about a subject yet bitch so authoritatively?

    When I think about greed, I think about the desire of the democrats to confisfcate my money and that of others to use the government to provide solutions to every problem.

    The crying of jharp and JAR above are perfect examples. What did the government do about the shitty management decisions of these private companies they wail? They have an underlying assumption that the government was supposed to do something. I don’t.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  118. Because they’re unwilling to admit that, in their heart of hearts, they really want a top – down, command – and – control economic system in this country.

    Dmac (e639cc)

  119. “Taxes not paid by shareholders represent a business cost passed on to the consumer.”

    Karl – I always hate that argument. Technically your statement is correct, but when looking at new taxes, not all business can pass on changes in taxes to customers, which is why I’m reluctant to use the argument.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  120. “Exxon paid $105 billion in taxes in 2007, more than two-and-a-half times as much as it made in profit.”

    And how much did it’s directors make in 07, compared to the previous years?

    JAR (08f6d2)

  121. daleyrocks,

    True but that’s going to be way beyond Oiram’s pay grade.

    JAR,

    I was responding to Oiram’s challenge: “I would love to see where oil corporations paid more in taxes than the record amounts they have been making in profits.” Directors’ salaries were not at issue, though they are easily discoverable.

    Karl (1b4668)

  122. #115 Karl, so that we are on the same page here and you don’t convolute anymore (I’ve been down this pack of lies before).

    What percentage of Exxon’s 10 percent profit did they pay in taxes?

    10 percent profit, you say is less than what BofA and coca cola etc. pay in taxes right? (heard it all before)

    Ask McDonalds if they would be happy making only 10 percent profit, the rest of the gross burger profits going to taxes to fund burger roads :) I.E. stomachs. But instead of thousands of fast food and restaurant competition, they only have to deal with Burger King, Carls, Jack In The Box, and Wendys.

    Ronald McDonald and his family would be a rich and happy clown.

    Oiram (983921)

  123. Oiram,

    Instead of rambling incoherently about hamburger, provide me with some source that contradicts any of the ststistics reported in the Houston Chronicle.

    Karl (1b4668)

  124. Karl you are a smart blogger and probably quite intelligent, but your skills lie in twisting the web to your personal view of what Karl’s world should look like.

    If your not going to use your skills for the good of most of America, I recommend a nice game of online chess.

    Oiram (983921)

  125. #124 Karl. I’m still waiting to see where Exxon personally paid 25% in taxes. This would mean 2 and half times their reported 10% profit.

    Now don’t quote me the taxes we all pay at the pump. Because we don’t use that form of logic when we consider sales tax.

    Oiram (983921)

  126. #125 2.5 times their profit means the poor house my friend.

    Oiram (983921)

  127. Karl, sorry the burger analogy was above your pay grade.

    Oiram (983921)

  128. All this back and forth about which party is to blame reminds me of a PJ O’Rourke quote:

    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.”

    Horatio (783c7d)

  129. Over the past months, I think the Bush Administration has used negotiation and inducements to limit the more high-flying mortgage, security and investment banks in 1 of 3 ways: Subject them to direct federal oversight (like Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae); let them go into reorganization/liquidation (like Lehman); or bring them under the control of banks (like Bear Stears/Chase and Merrill Lynch/BoA).

    Based on these incidents and on Secretary Paulson’s statements today, I think the Bush Administration has indicated a preference for the last option whenever possible and, in my opinion, that’s a good move. National banks are highly regulated under federal banking laws that have been in place and refined for almost 80 years. Banks are subject to heightened government oversight compared to the SEC and state securities regulations applicable to investment, mortgage, and securities entities, and national banks have a much higher degree of transparency in their dealings.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  130. Oiram,

    The burger analogy was made without supporting authority or any obvious connection to the oil business. Which is why you’re reduced to accusing me of twisting that ol’ web to my view of the world, rather than bringing data to the discussion.

    Karl (1b4668)

  131. #130 I’m still waiting for proof that Oil companies paid 2 and half times their profits in taxes from their own pockets.

    Do you think you can come up with that Karl?

    Oiram (983921)

  132. I didnt see any points, just a lot of gossip about who contribute to whom.

    not one word of anything Obama did wrong!

    nlcatter (a3c869)

  133. BUSINESS AND MEDIA INSTITUTE
    Advancing The Culture Of Free Enterprise In America

    I love it that’s Karl’s supporting authority link in comment #115.

    If that’s not twisting the discussion…… not sure what is.

    Oiram (983921)

  134. #132 nlcatter, unfortunately that’s how they get their man/woman elected.

    Haven’t we scene this scenario before?

    Oiram (983921)

  135. Here’s the XOM 10Q. I don’t have enough crayons and butcher paper to reduce it to a level that someone of Oiram’s demonstrated intellectual limitations might understand but others may, out of a sense of charity or just to make the worm squirm a little bit.

    By my reckoning sales taxes stay in – Karl set the terms.

    Rick Ballard (14757e)

  136. Whole lotta stupid on this thread about Gramm-Leach-Bliley and the current mortgage meltdown.

    GLB was enacted primarily to allow Sandy Weill’s and Bob Rubin’s Citibank to legally buy Travelers Insurance. Glass-Steagall prohibited banks from owning insurance companies. It did not prohibit investment banks from getting into the mortgage business. There was never any regulatory or statutory structure that would have prohibited Merrill Lynch from buying First Franklin, or Lehman Bros. from buying Aurora Mortgage. Those ill-advised purchases were the proximate cause of the demise of the two companies. Their management got greedy and decided that making billions on underwriting and selling mortgage-backed securities was not enough – they wanted to control all the profits from mortgages from start to finish.

    Many of us in the mortgage business knew something was rotten when Merrill and Lehman got into the front end of the business. We knew it would not end well. But there was never any discussion in Congress or anywhere else about stopping such purchases.

    rockmom (e42807)

  137. “Over the past months, I think the Bush Administration has used negotiation and inducements to limit the more high-flying mortgage, security and investment banks in 1 of 3 ways:”

    Do you mean he did one of three?

    “Subject them to direct federal oversight (like Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae);”

    Wrong. Freddie and Fannie were private until a week ago. It was only after it became obvious they were doomed that the taxpayers became involved.

    “let them go into reorganization/liquidation (like Lehman)”

    Let them go? President Bus was the one who did this? They went into reorganization/liquidation for one reason. They were insolvent.

    “or bring them under the control of banks (like Bear Stears/Chase and Merrill Lynch/BoA).”

    And George Bush did this too? Are you serious? Geroge Bush brought two? three? companies under the control of privately owned bamks?

    “National banks are highly regulated under federal banking laws that have been in place and refined for almost 80 years. Banks are subject to heightened government oversight compared to the SEC and state securities regulations applicable to investment, mortgage, and securities entities, and national banks have a much higher degree of transparency in their dealings.”

    So I guess your answer is more government regulation.

    Comment by DRJ — 9/15/2008 @ 4:25 pm

    Please, for the sake of all of us give this issue some serious thought. Take to someone who actually knows.

    Turn off Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage, and Fox News.

    You are seriously misinformed.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  138. jharp, what is your background in financial services?

    rockmom (e42807)

  139. None.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  140. More good news for Republicans and trickle down economics.

    WaMu Rating Lowered to Junk by S&P on Mortgage Losses

    Sept. 15 (Bloomberg) — Washington Mutual Inc., the biggest U.S. savings and loan, had its credit rating cut to junk by Standard & Poor’s because of the deteriorating housing market.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=awDjhtIfoz_Q

    Holy smokes!

    jharp (f4bed7)

  141. None

    jharp – It shows.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  142. NEW YORK (Reuters) – Disbelief and anxiety were written on the faces of staff at American International Group Inc as they grappled with the idea that their company, which was once the largest insurer in the world and one of the safest places to work, was struggling for its survival.

    AIG! Holy Toledo!

    Once of the largest insurers in the world, fighting for it’s survival.

    Remind me again of McCain’s quote on the economy today. Sound, was it? Strong? I honestly don’t recall.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  143. None

    jharp – It shows.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 9/15/2008 @ 5:04 pm

    Seriously, daley.

    What in the hell does that have to do with what happened today?

    jharp (f4bed7)

  144. jharp,

    Come clean with us. Having read your posts, I’ve got a ten-spot that says you’re really Karl Rove in mufti.

    And don’t try to deny it, because we’ll know.

    MarkJ (42fe5b)

  145. jharp – Your ignorance is really astounding.

    Wrong. Freddie and Fannie were private until a week ago.

    - Fannie and Freddie were always federally regulated and operated with an implicit government guarantee.

    The government sponsored a bailout of Bear Stearns but chose to allow Lehman, another primary dealer, to go down the tubes instead.

    What are your proposed goverment solutions to these horrors harpy? Are you just squawking for shits and giggles?

    I agree with DRJ, everything you say sounds like you want government intervention on private markets. Explain your plans genius.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  146. “Once of the largest insurers in the world, fighting for it’s survival.”

    That’s what happens when you start fucking around outside the businesses you claim to be in.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  147. “What in the hell does that have to do with what happened today?”

    jharp – Ot has everything to do with your understanding and hysteria over what is happening.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  148. WSJ August 2007 Jeb Bush: Lehman’s Secret Weapon

    And still no response to Roubini.

    And, just for the hell of it:

    Recent history suggests that we want the mortgage giants to be private when they are making breathtaking profits for their investors and executives. But when the going gets tough, we need Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to keep the credit flowing to homeowners even if it means putting taxpayer resources on the line. Willem Buiter at the London School of Economics has called this ambivalence “the most deceitful socialism I know.” And he may have a point.

    When the current crisis passes — and it will — we should consider whether the government should own part or all of these firms and put public members on their boards both to restrain their exuberance in over-hot housing markets and to make sure that taxpayers share in the profits as well as the losses.

    JAR (6b0755)

  149. My apologies for joining you guys late in the game, but I’ll save you some trouble.

    Jharp in a nutshell:

    If we let the banks go broke => Bush sucks and he wrecked the financial industry.

    If we bail them out => We’re led by a bunch of corrupt politicians who are stealing Americans’ money to help a bunch of crooks.

    You may now all continue in your futile effort to do whatever the hell it is you’re doing.

    Anon (03ab2e)

  150. jharp,

    Feel free to disagree but I think you misunderstood my points.

    “Over the past months, I think the Bush Administration has used negotiation and inducements to limit the more high-flying mortgage, security and investment banks in 1 of 3 ways:”

    Do you mean he did one of three?

    What I meant and what I thought I said was that the Bush Administration used different techniques in different situations, so that in any given situation it used 1 of 3 methods.

    “Subject them to direct federal oversight (like Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae);”

    Wrong. Freddie and Fannie were private until a week ago. It was only after it became obvious they were doomed that the taxpayers became involved.

    As you note, there is federal oversight now and that’s what I was talking about. Now.

    “let them go into reorganization/liquidation (like Lehman)”

    Let them go? President Bus was the one who did this? They went into reorganization/liquidation for one reason. They were insolvent.

    The Bush Administration could have backed or underwritten a bail-out of Lehman Brothers but it didn’t. Thus, it let Lehman go into the only remaining alternative: reorganization/liquidation.

    “or bring them under the control of banks (like Bear Stearns/Chase and Merrill Lynch/BoA).”

    And George Bush did this too? Are you serious? Geroge Bush brought two? three? companies under the control of privately owned banks?

    This is my conjecture. I am not saying the Bush Administration made private banks acquire Bear Stearns or Merrill Lynch which is why I used the terms “negotiation and inducements” instead of “compel and force.” I think the Bush Administration encouraged these acquisitions, perhaps by promising to ease legal requirements that might make the acquisitions more difficult or expensive.

    “National banks are highly regulated under federal banking laws that have been in place and refined for almost 80 years. Banks are subject to heightened government oversight compared to the SEC and state securities regulations applicable to investment, mortgage, and securities entities, and national banks have a much higher degree of transparency in their dealings.”

    So I guess your answer is more government regulation.

    Actually, yes, but only under existing banking laws as opposed to any new set of laws that might be written by a Democratic Congress in order to take further control of the securities, mortgage, and investment sectors of our economy. (Of course, this may still happen.)

    Almost everyone uses banks which is why consumer confidence is so important in financial markets, and maintaining that confidence is why government oversight is important in banking transactions. In today’s world, many more people own or hold securities, mortgages, and investments than 20-30 years ago.

    It’s time those assets have the same degree of regulation, transparency and consumer confidence that people have in banks. But why reinvent the wheel when we have a good banking system already?

    Please, for the sake of all of us give this issue some serious thought. Take to someone who actually knows.

    Turn off Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage, and Fox News.

    You are seriously misinformed.

    I often watch Fox Business but I rarely watch or listen to the sources you mention. I may be wrong but these are my opinions, honestly expressed, and not someone else’s.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  151. “What in the hell does that have to do with what happened today?”

    jharp – Ot has everything to do with your understanding and hysteria over what is happening.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 9/15/2008 @ 5:23 pm

    Please enlighten me. I very well understand what has happened. Hysteria? I don’t know. You tell me what the reaction should be.

    Lehman, Bear Stearns, Wa Mu, Goldman, Morgan, Countrywide, Merrill, AIG…. some pretty big names there fella, and a lot of everyday folks have lost a significant amount of their retirement savings.

    What should we call the reaction?

    jharp (f4bed7)

  152. “What should we call the reaction?”

    jharp – Do markets go up as well as down?

    I think they do. In fact I know they do.

    What would you call it bonehead, Armageddon, the End Times, an Apocalype, a Black Hole, a Catastrophe, the End of Life as we know it?

    Are any of those appealing to you?

    I like the word correction myself.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  153. “Subject them to direct federal oversight (like Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae);”

    ” Wrong. Freddie and Fannie were private until a week ago. It was only after it became obvious they were doomed that the taxpayers became involved.”

    “As you note, there is federal oversight now and that’s what I was talking about. Now.”

    So pretty much a classic “closing the barn door after the horse is loose” Good one President Bush

    “let them go into reorganization/liquidation (like Lehman)”

    Let them go? President Bus was the one who did this? They went into reorganization/liquidation for one reason. They were insolvent.

    “The Bush Administration could have backed or underwritten a bail-out of Lehman Brothers but it didn’t. Thus, it let Lehman go into the only remaining alternative: reorganization/liquidation.”

    The idea is to prevent these type of events from happening. Something George Bush has slept thru the past 8 yrs. It’s the shaeholders and taxpayers that suffer. (guys like you and me)

    I agree to let them fail.

    So I guess your answer is more government regulation.

    “Actually, yes, but only under existing banking laws as opposed to any new set of laws that might be written by a Democratic Congress in order to take further control of the securities, mortgage, and investment sectors of our economy”

    The law, as it is now written, has specifically allowed this event to happen.

    “I often watch Fox Business”

    Tuen it off. Very poor source.

    Go to college. Take some Finance accounting and economics classes. And then do some reading and studying of information from a source without an agenda.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  154. timb,

    Of course, posts I wrote at PW are ultimately backed by source material that timmy can’t be bothered to read.

    I will give credit to timmy for admitting that Democrats in the Clinton era were also involved in the deregulation that Democrats are now trying to pretend are the fault of the GOP in the Bush era. Maybe he should fire off an indignant e-mail to Camp Obama about the partisan hypocrisy Obama has been spewing today.

    Yeah, sure they are. Sourced to other PW posts then to other right wing blog posts and finally to obscure news articles in the Des Moines Shopper or other academic works.

    I would be glad to fire off that email, as soon as I see you decry anything McCain has done and, then, explain to me why your side did nothing to fix it in the EIGHT YEARS they have controlled the regulatory agencies, the Presidency, and the six years they controlled Congress. Could it be they were too busy fellating the very industries they were supposed to be regulatin’? Could it be you were declaring that “right”?

    Karl, it’s freepers like you who have sought to roll back the regulatory state instituted throughout the 20th century. You aren’t then allowed to complain about the carnage your reactionary policies cause later. You wanted the 1920′s; you got ‘em.

    Oh, and my email will be attached to yet another check, because one thing I’ve realized on this trip through right wing land: you people haven’t learned a thing as you drove the financial markets into the ground, embroiled us in armed conflicts, and ran the middle class into the ground. You’re still excited over blaming people and avoiding responsibility.

    timb (8f04c0)

  155. Take some Finance accounting and economics classes.

    Oh spare me, your knowledge of the financial markets is non-existent.

    Anon (03ab2e)

  156. “I like the word correction myself.”

    Good one.

    Ricard Fuld made $45 million last year. (CEO of Lehman)

    Shareholders end up with 0 (zero).

    And you call it a correction? I hope in my lifetime the average man, at the very least, gets some basic understanding of our financial markets and how they are destroying the middle class.

    Go McCain! Privatize Social Security!

    jharp (f4bed7)

  157. What happened today?
    Think about this:

    The Fed added that it was suspending a rule that normally prohibits deposit-taking banks from using deposits to help finance their investment banking subsidiaries to allow them to fund activities normally funded in the repo market on a temporary basis until January 30 2009.

    JAR (6b0755)

  158. Oiram -

    Privatize the gains……. socialize the losses. This is a mantra I can’t get behind
    – Because you want the exact opposite, eh comrade?

    Icy Truth (74c635)

  159. jharp:

    The idea is to prevent these type of events from happening.

    We can’t stop bad things from happening in a free market.

    Go to college. Take some Finance accounting and economics classes. And then do some reading and studying of information from a source without an agenda.

    You don’t know my background and I don’t know yours. Let’s leave it at that.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  160. #149 Anon:

    You may now all continue in your futile effort to do whatever the hell it is you’re doing.

    Thank you. That looks like a whole lot of sludge on that page that I really didn’t want to wade into.

    Looks kind of like wrestling with a tarbaby, you know?

    EW1(SG) (dd1b99)

  161. Karl, your knowledge of the Enron loophole is limited. It applies to All Commodities and hedges not just Ken Lay, Texas politics or Enron. And the artificial run-up in oil futures being unregulated during the early part of this year which hammered the American economy about as much as what is happening this week. You’re essentially speaking half truths if you think Ken Lay and Enron are anything but a small part of it. It got it’s tag from that debacle but Pres. Bush has fought every reform of it and so has McCain.

    Much of the deregulation enacted by Republicans and gone along with by “Financialized” Democrats has wrought what we are seeing unfold now. McCain can crow about how secure our economy is but he’s a a Liar.

    You only kid yourself if you think it’s just the subprime home loans. It’s overleverageing of all Markets esp. the Hedge Funds. Energy futures esp. Now Saudis, Chinese, and others are looking at the House of Card Phil Gramm, GW Bush and McCain have built and are putting their investments elsewhere.

    The roots of over “Financialization” of America are from the 1980s and artifacts of Reagan’s deregulation of markets in general w/o concern for future corruptions in the markets. A Lehman insider admitted his company’s problems extended from bad decisions from the 1980s. homework

    Blaming this on Nancy Pelosi will not get you any points.

    Financialization ! good word. study it well, google it, and perhaps understand it while we ride the coming panic. It sucks as I am not that well off. Nice, that Generalissimo McCain, Moosolini and Phil Gramm can call us a nation of whiners, they’re well protected and financialized I am sure.

    datadave (eb12a5)

  162. JARvvvvve -

    And how much did it’s directors make in 07, compared to the previous years?

    – If you’re a shareholder, look at your annual report; if not, it’s a very special number called NOYFB.

    Icy Truth (74c635)

  163. jharp:

    “I like the word correction myself.”

    Good one.

    Ricard Fuld made $45 million last year. (CEO of Lehman)

    Shareholders end up with 0 (zero).

    I bet there will be shareholder suits. That may not be your preferred method of solving problems – you seem to want so much regulation that nothing happens – but our free market system is generally based on letting existing economic and legal systems happen and remedying abuses after-the-fact in court.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  164. jharp has already shown his own rather extensive ignorance of financial matters in this and many previous threads. So his little admonition is pretty hilarious.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  165. Take some Finance accounting and economics classes.

    Oh spare me, your knowledge of the financial markets is non-existent.

    Comment by Anon — 9/15/2008 @ 5:48 pm

    Weren’t you the dude who posted how the CEO of Bear Stearns was punished by taking home only $61 million in leading his company to a taxpayer bailout.

    Yeah, right. I couldn’t understand things nearly as well as you. You have got to be kidding.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  166. Looks kind of like wrestling with a tarbaby, you know?

    Unfortunately, I have to admit I can’t resist a little bit of it, but yeah – it’s a waste and I’ve mostly had my fill.

    Anon (03ab2e)

  167. DRG,

    “I bet there will be shareholder suits.”

    Probably. Follow it through and see where it ends up. Hopefully you and will live long enough to see some justice. I doubt it.

    This is same goddam story written a long time ago with only different characters.

    And do a little research on whose policies have led to every one of them.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  168. Remember jharp, who we’re talking to

    The chairman of the Republican Party in Macomb County, Michigan, a key swing county in a key swing state, is planning to use a list of foreclosed homes to block people from voting in the upcoming election as part of the state GOP’s effort to challenge some voters on Election Day.

    And also (just a thought) the only use being here is to be read by occasional visitors who haven’t made up their minds (there are a lot of them these days, on all the bigger sites, left and right). But the regulars here have no more interest in the facts than Robert Faurisson. All they’re interested in, to quote the man himself is winning.

    “The election is not about issues”
    They think their issues and their principles will reappear after it’s over. How? I don’t know.

    JAR (6b0755)

  169. timb, first of all, you’ve got no serious suggestions for any actual action that would have addressed the current problems. So your attacks are just hilarious.

    jharp and JAR are hilarious in their pathetic attempts to distract attention from the fact that Fannie Mae’s mismanagement ( Franklin Raines was forced to give up millions in compensation as a result of his past mismanagement ). But the most comical is JAR claiming that the “problem” is the packaging of mortgages as securities – which is what Fannie Mae does, its entire raison d’etre as it were.

    And yet, even as that was comical, more comical was jharp’s claim that there wasn’t any oversight of Fannie Mae until it was taken over last week. Such ignores fundamental facts, like Fannie Mae’s structure as a GSE, who appoints its directors and officers, and most significantly, that among the largest recipients of Fannie Mae’s extensive lobbying largesse are key Democrats in Congress.

    This kind of comedy should be illegal.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  170. “We can’t stop bad things from happening in a free market.”

    You are dead wrong. We can stop lots of bad things happening in a free market.

    Ford Pintos, anyone?

    jharp (f4bed7)

  171. jharp -

    Go McCain! Privatize Social Security!

    – First correct thing you’ve said today.

    Icy Truth (7b38bb)

  172. Weren’t you the dude who posted how the CEO of Bear Stearns was punished by taking home only $61 million in leading his company to a taxpayer bailout.

    Jharp – you’re the dude who said the CEOs had a no-lose proposition.

    When I pointed out the CEO of Bear Stearns went from being worth over a billion a couple years ago to losing 95% and being worth $61 million, you rebutted with a thorough portrayal of third grade name calling.

    That was the end of my interest in debating civilly with you — which I happily pointed out.

    Don’t care about your opinion dude.

    Anon (03ab2e)

  173. JAR, now you try to introduce yet another distraction with a comment about the election? That’s pretty hilarious too, given that last month the Democratic Governor of Montana was caught making jokes about voter fraud accomplished by Democrats in the ’06 election in his state.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  174. “And yet, even as that was comical, more comical was jharp’s claim that there wasn’t any oversight of Fannie Mae until it was taken over last week.”

    You are a liar.

    I never made such a claim.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  175. Karl, your knowledge of the Enron loophole is limited. It applies to All Commodities and hedges not just Ken Lay, Texas politics or Enron. And the artificial run-up in oil futures being unregulated during the early part of this year which hammered the American economy about as much as what is happening this week. You’re essentially speaking half truths if you think Ken Lay and Enron are anything but a small part of it. It got it’s tag from that debacle but Pres. Bush has fought every reform of it and so has McCain.

    datadave (eb12a5)

  176. jharp, your comment is #137 above, you clown.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  177. Pretty discouraging as an American to see how ill informed so many of our citizenry is.

    I was well aware we had a serious problem when we re elected George Bush in 04. And I’d have thought that 4 more years of utter failure would have brought most to their senses.

    I guess I underestimated the stupidity of Americans.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  178. “And yet, even as that was comical, more comical was jharp’s claim that there wasn’t any oversight of Fannie Mae until it was taken over last week.”

    You are a liar.

    I never made such a claim.

    Comment by jharp — 9/15/2008 @ 6:07 pm

    jharp, your comment is #137 above, you clown.

    Comment by SPQR — 9/15/2008 @ 6:08 pm

    My comment #137

    “Wrong. Freddie and Fannie were private until a week ago. It was only after it became obvious they were doomed that the taxpayers became involved.”

    So. Private now means “that there wasn’t any oversight”

    Do you have no sense of being ashamed of the utter nonsense that you post?

    jharp (f4bed7)

  179. jharp,

    If you are as knowledgeable as you profess, you are well aware that problems with mortgages and securities pre-dated the Bush Administration.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  180. jharp, Evidently you should become ashamed of the utter nonsense you post. You omit the quote you were responding to, since it makes it clear you are ignorant.

    previous commentator:“Subject them to direct federal oversight (like Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae);”

    jharp: “Wrong. Freddie and Fannie were private until a week ago. It was only after it became obvious they were doomed that the taxpayers became involved.”

    jharp, you are notorious for displaying your incompetence.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  181. Anon,

    http://biz.yahoo.com/t/07/6084.html

    Here’s another Lehman insider, a board member who oversaw the stock got to zero, being punished by only getting $25 million.

    And, as usual, 15% capital gains tax and no social security tax,. A lesser rate than the janitor at my kids school pays.

    GO GOP! The middle class still has a little bit left. Here’s to hoping you can get the rest of it by getting McCain elected.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  182. If you’re worried about vote fraud go here.

    JAR (6b0755)

  183. I see jharp’s laid Karl’s partisan analysis to rest.

    Well, done, jar and jharp, tim? I guess they’re cowering in their walk-in safes or checking their two year food supplies and rifles? (gotta admit, not a bad idea those Mormons have out in Utah) Too bad most voters don’t have such savings and stocks to tide them by.

    I don’t know, anon, calling it quits at only 61 million for a year’s job doesn’t sound like a loss to me.

    datadave (eb12a5)

  184. 177~

    I guess I underestimated the stupidity of Americans.

    Surprising, since with your evident narcissism, I would have expected you to spend much more time looking in a mirror.

    EW1(SG) (dd1b99)

  185. SPQR,

    What in God’s name are you talking about?

    “And yet, even as that was comical, more comical was jharp’s claim that there wasn’t any oversight of Fannie Mae until it was taken over last week.”

    You claimed I said there wasn’t any oversight.

    You were wrong. You lied. I never said such a thing.

    Pretty simple, huh?

    jharp (f4bed7)

  186. Dare I bring up Franklin Raine’s surpassingly lucrative tenure at Fannie Mae, where he amassed $90 million in pay and bonuses over a mere 6 years at the helm? Who says affirmative action doesn’t pay…? A former cabinet member in Clinton’s administration, he learned from the best.

    Nor Meyer (d30bb7)

  187. Nor Meyer, don’t dare. jharp and JAR have been denying Raines’ very existance for more than a week now.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  188. datadave, jharp has laid nothing to rest but his credibility, and that was dead and buried long ago. jharp’s only arguments are “Hey, look over there!”

    SPQR (26be8b)

  189. Some more fun for the folks at home. From the Financial Times.
    WKRP, DNR et al. Read before you write. Or better yet, don’t write at all.

    In the aftermath of the US Treasury’s decision to seize control of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, critics have hit at lax oversight of the mortgage companies. The dominant theme has been that Congress let the two government-sponsored enterprises morph into a creature that eventually threatened the US financial system. Mike Oxley will have none of it.
    Instead, the Ohio Republican who headed the House financial services committee until his retirement after mid-term elections last year, blames the mess on ideologues within the White House as well as Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the Federal Reserve.

    The critics have forgotten that the House passed a GSE reform bill in 2005 that could well have prevented the current crisis, says Mr Oxley, now vice-chairman of Nasdaq.

    He fumes about the criticism of his House colleagues. “All the handwringing and bedwetting is going on without remembering how the House stepped up on this,” he says. “What did we get from the White House? We got a one-finger salute.”

    The House bill, the 2005 Federal Housing Finance Reform Act, would have created a stronger regulator with new powers to increase capital at Fannie and Freddie, to limit their portfolios and to deal with the possibility of receivership.
    Mr Oxley reached out to Barney Frank, then the ranking Democrat on the committee and now its chairman, to secure support on the other side of the aisle. But after winning bipartisan support in the House, where the bill passed by 331 to 90 votes, the legislation lacked a champion in the Senate and faced hostility from the Bush administration.
    Adamant that the only solution to the problems posed by Fannie and Freddie was their privatisation, the White House attacked the bill. Mr Greenspan also weighed in, saying that the House legislation was worse than no bill at all. keep reading

    What you don’t want to remember you don’t want anyone else to remember. And I didn’t, but I asked around. Knowledge is there if you want it.

    JAR (6b0755)

  190. Nor Meyer,

    Good point. Similarly, while the media repeatedly linked Enron with Republicans, it refused to publicize ties between Democrats and Fannie Mae’s decline:

    “In contrast, neither NBC nor any other broadcast outlet would have needed to search hard for political ties in the Fannie Mae debacle. Former Chief Executive Officer Franklin Raines and former Vice Chairman Jamie Gorelick were both instrumental figures in the Clinton administration. The print media were candid about Fannie’s political connections. In a Dec. 23, 2004, article, Albert Crenshaw of The Washington Post revealed that Franklin Raines “was a director of the Office of Management and Budget in the Clinton administration, and his name was mentioned as a possible Treasury Secretary had Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) been elected president.”

    Jamie Gorelick was Deputy Attorney General under Clinton. Fannie Mae board member Jack Quinn was the attorney for pardoned tax evader Marc Rich. Fannie also has one of the largest lobbying budgets in Washington. A Feb. 24, 2005, article in The Washington Post reported that Fannie “paid its lobbying corps about $5 million in the first six months of last year.”

    According to Jeff Bliss of Bloomberg.com, Fannie Mae spent almost $8.7 million on lobbyists in 2003. In May of 2004, Citizens Against Government Waste criticized Fannie for “heavy handed meddling in the legislative process to protect the company’s congressional protected status and its lavish corporate welfare program.”

    The connections were there, but broadcast news was uninterested.”

    This Wall Street Journal review provides details and background from a 2004 report (covering the 1990′s during the Clinton Administration) on how Clinton appointees helped Fannie Mae institute practices that hid losses and got Fannie Mae into this mess.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  191. #112, Oiram – I would love to see where oil corporations paid more in taxes than the record amounts they have been making in profits.
    #115, Karl – Exxon paid $105 billion in taxes in 2007, more than two-and-a-half times as much as it made in profit.
    #122, Oiram [apparently losing the ability to understand basic English] – What percentage of Exxon’s 10 percent profit did they pay in taxes?
    #125, Oiram [repeating his stupidity] – I’m still waiting to see where Exxon personally paid 25% in taxes. This would mean 2 and half times their reported 10% profit.
    #131, Oiram [swinging for strike three] – I’m still waiting for proof that Oil companies paid 2 and half times their profits in taxes from their own pockets.

    – The tax foundation http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/2195.html explains how income taxes and taxes paid at the pump are separate entities. Click on the links to see a chart of both. Exxon paid 259% of profit in taxes for 2007; they paid 255% of profit in taxes for 2006.

    Icy Truth (7b38bb)

  192. DRJ, notice how many disasters have Jamie Gorelick standing in the wings?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  193. Exxon’s customers paid the per gallon tax at the pump. It has nothing to do with Exxon’s profits.

    nk (189a81)

  194. DRJ, notice how many disasters have Jamie Gorelick standing in the wings?

    Comment by SPQR — 9/15/2008 @ 6:53 pm

    You guys are killing me.

    So now it’s Jamie Gorelick’s fault.

    Holy Bejesus! This ain’t the republican party I grew up with.

    Ya can’t make stuff up any crazier.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  195. DRJ, another old story on Fannie Mae’s Democratic connections/mismanagement.

    jharp, I didn’t not say it was Jamie Gorelick’s fault. By your standards above, that makes you the liar.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  196. SPQR,

    “jharp, I didn’t not say it was Jamie Gorelick’s fault. By your standards above, that makes you the liar.”

    I’m sorry. What exactly did you mean by your post.

    “DRJ, notice how many disasters have Jamie Gorelick standing in the wings?”

    That it is Clinton’s fault?

    The Democrats fault?

    Kindly enlighten me.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  197. jharp, you can’t be enlightened. But your lack of basic integrity is well illustrated by your comment.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  198. I’m sorry. What exactly did you mean by your post.

    “jharp, you can’t be enlightened. But your lack of basic integrity is well illustrated by your comment.”

    Comment by SPQR — 9/15/2008 @ 7:14 pm

    Just as I thought. You have no answer.

    And it was a stupid irrelevant comment.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  199. So everyone is agreed we need campaign finance reform now right?

    Bob Loblaw (6d485c)

  200. Thanks, nk. That’s what I was trying to explain to Marioiam.

    Icy Truth (7b38bb)

  201. So everyone is agreed we need campaign finance reform now right?
    – Uh, that is related to the topic of this thread HOW?

    Icy Truth (7b38bb)

  202. I don’t really care to see where the thread an off the rails, but stop using terms like “liar” and be more polite.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  203. 194~

    Ya can’t make stuff up any crazier.

    But you are doing your damndest to try, aren’t you.

    EW1(SG) (dd1b99)

  204. jharp – Who is in charge of preventing the stock market from going down?

    You keep wailing about all those folks’ retirement savings being lost. Who is in charge of preventing the stock market from going down?

    Who is in charge of preventing individual stocks from declining on value?

    Do you truly believe that investing in the stock market should be riskless as your comments make it sound like you believe?

    How do you stop a run on a financial institution’s funding sources such as Lehman or Merrill without government intervention?

    Were you aware that Lehman’s troubles had been widely publicized all year long and should not have been a surprise to anyone?

    Did you pray for divine intervention over the weekend?

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  205. Ummm Icy Truth, the article notes money given to Hillary, Obama, Chuck, Chris & John. Or were they all “advisors” like Jeb Bush?

    Bob Loblaw (6d485c)

  206. #204 daleyrocks:

    Do you truly believe that investing in the stock market should be riskless as your comments make it sound like you believe?

    I don’t think he believes it possible for there not to be a loser in any transaction.

    Therefore, there must be guilt! And since the Rethuglicans are the ones that believe we need to take responsibility for our own actions, THEY must be the ones to blame because they didn’t prevent everything bad that’s ever happened to him!

    EW1(SG) (dd1b99)

  207. Aye aye, Cap’n.

    Hey, wait a second. I haven’t called anyone a liar . . . in this thread.

    Icy Truth (7b38bb)

  208. jharp – Who is in charge of preventing the stock market from going down?

    You keep wailing about all those folks’ retirement savings being lost. Who is in charge of preventing the stock market from going down?

    Government fiscal and monetary policy weighs heavy.

    The state of our economy is directly related to.

    1) Blowing $1 trillion in Iraq
    2) Piss poor job done by our regulators
    3) CEO’s gutting the assets and converting them into compensation for themselves. I call it stealing peoples retirement savings but since the Republicans have legislated that it is legal I guess it really isn’t stealing.

    “Who is in charge of preventing individual stocks from declining on value?”

    The buck stops at the top.

    “Do you truly believe that investing in the stock market should be riskless as your comments make it sound like you believe?”

    No.

    “How do you stop a run on a financial institution’s funding sources such as Lehman or Merrill without government intervention?”

    By making a profit and delivering what you have promised to the owners of the company (the shareholders).

    “Were you aware that Lehman’s troubles had been widely publicized all year long and should not have been a surprise to anyone?”

    Yes. And it has been much longer than a year.

    “Did you pray for divine intervention over the weekend?”

    No.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 9/15/2008 @ 7:47 pm

    jharp (f4bed7)

  209. Enron Loophole

    The CFMA has received criticism for the so-called “Enron Loophole,” 7 U.S.C. §2(h)(3) and (g), which exempts most over-the-counter energy trades and trading on electronic energy commodity markets. The “loophole” was drafted by Enron Lobbyists working with senator Phil Gramm [1] seeking a deregulated atmosphere for their new experiment, “Enron On-line”.

    to answer a question above.

    An attempt to repeal the policy was vetoed by President Bush in 2008. Several Democratic Legislators introduced legislation to close the loophole from 2000-2006, but were unsuccessful due to Republican control of the House and Senate.

    ah, that’s that…but actually Gramm’s involvement in the deregulation of markets in general is what we’re seeing now. The safeguards that prevented us from going into another Great Depression were eliminated at the behest of a Republican Congress viciously attacking a weakened Democratic President Clinton. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act

    good to see Karl back in form on the web though.
    btw, this meltdown has nothing to do with Fannie Mae nor just subprimes. It is the whole market is ‘subprime’.

    Next. Hedge Funds.

    sorry, you ain’t seen nothing yet. McCain says the fundamentals are sound. Believe that Hoover/Cooledge mix? Read this:

    “Over the last five years, financial services has reached a swollen 20-21% of U.S. GDP — the largest sector of the private economy.

    Manufacturing led financial services by 2:1 back in the 1970s, but by 2006 beaten goods production had shrunk to just 12% of GDP.

    During Greenspan’s 1987-2005 tenure, the sum of public and private debt in the United States quadrupled from just over $10 trillion to $43 trillion.” Kevin Phillips

    anyway, it just came to me why Sec. Paulsen said this, ” Asked why he supported a rescue package for Bear Stearns but not for Lehman, Paulson said he “never once considered that it was appropriate to put taxpayer money on the line in resolving Lehman Brothers.”

    BearSterns, aggressive, Republican
    Lehman, laid back, Democrat

    who got bailed out by the Bush Administration?

    Eh, Karl the open secrets list is probably irrelevant as NewYork’s delegation is usually Dem. and NYC centered finacials would be ‘obligated’. bipartisan, you bet. but not relevant to ‘why’ radical (reactionary more likely_) deregulation happens. Sec. Paulsen says he was dealt the hand that was given him from ‘decades’ of prior mishandling of the economy. 1980s esp.

    datadave (eb12a5)

  210. jharp – “Who is in charge of preventing individual stocks from declining on value?”

    The buck stops at the top.

    jharp imagines central planning where there is none, and then rails that the root of the problem is the free market.

    Well done.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  211. I’m disillusioned! You mean the federal government is not officially in charge of the nation’s economy?

    This is madness! Save us Baracky . . . only you can nationalize everything!

    Icy Truth (fa927f)

  212. Suitably Flip fisks the statement from Senator Obama with a twist. (h/t Ace)

    jeff (87cd05)

  213. “I’m disillusioned! You mean the federal government is not officially in charge of the nation’s economy?”

    You tell me, Icy, what are the consequences of borrowing and blowing $1 trillion on a good will mission in the desert?

    Or running up $4.5 trillion in deficits the past 7 years?

    Or doing nothing to fix the most expensive heath care system in the world?

    Is that good for our economy?

    jharp (f4bed7)

  214. That is pretty good, Jeff, feels just like the nonsense we are seeing above.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  215. jharp, the government’s deficits have nothing to do with the current financial crisis at all. And our health care system is even less related.

    You really need to quit cut and pasting these irrelevancies into every thread. It is why your reputation here is as a “noisemaker” as mentioned earlier.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  216. “The Free Market”
    By the rules of which the government has no right saving anyone’s ass.
    And Pat, if you’ve going to start policing lies, start with your own. What principles do you have left?
    Small government? Gone.
    Basic honesty? Gone.
    Taxes? Rule number one: To Spend is To Tax
    Gone.

    You use every trick in the book to defend something, but I’m not even sure what it is anymore. Maybe it has something to do with abortion, but other then that there’s no consistency at all.

    JAR (6b0755)

  217. Hey and good news or something
    Kissinger Backs Direct Talks ‘Without Conditions’ with Iran
    Somebody catch me I think I’m going to faint.

    Idiots.

    JAR (6b0755)

  218. 2) Piss poor job done by our regulators
    3) CEO’s gutting the assets and converting them into compensation for themselves. I call it stealing peoples retirement savings but since the Republicans have legislated that it is legal I guess it really isn’t stealing.

    jharp – 2) get on the horn and tell the regulators to have the market go back up will ya, what are you waiting for?

    3) I’m sure everybody will be very happy the day the government begins setting pay scales for everybody. They’ll start with doctors if we get universal healthcare.

    At least you acknowledge individual company performance has an impact on stock prices. That is a huge admission from you. Why can’t individual company performance take a stock down to pennies in anticipation of bankruptcy?

    Look up runs on financial companies. It’s clear you don’t understand the concept. Use Schumer and IndyMac as an example, but for Lehman and Merrill, the consequences are faster and more extreme.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  219. He does realize that the US govt doesn’t borow money from US banks, right? that it’s basicly loans to other countries?

    I mean, he knows that, right?

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  220. “jharp, the government’s deficits have nothing to do with the current financial crisis at all.”

    Really? Is that so?

    Then kindly share with me exactly why deficits are bad.

    “And our health care system is even less related.”

    And I had no idea this was true either.

    Why is it then, that we need to address health care costs at all?

    jharp (f4bed7)

  221. Josh Marshall

    Let me get this straight. John McCain’s top economic advisor, former Sen. Phil Gramm [the link is mine-J] is the guy who authored the deregulation law that most agree is the ultimate cause of today’s financial meltdown. Tomorrow’s and probably next week’s too. But let’s not get ahead of ourselves. John Thain, CEO of Merrill Lynch, which swirled into brokerage oblivion today, is one of McCain’s top economic advisors too. And now McCain says he’s going to clean up the mess by putting in tighter regulations and oversight even though he’s always supported lax oversight and his top economics guy is the one who loosened the rules in the first place.

    JAR (6b0755)

  222. Why is it then, that we need to address health care costs at all?

    jharp – How are those health care costs related to the financial crisis at Lehman and Merrill and AIG today? I’m not seeing the linkage?

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  223. “jharp, the government’s deficits have nothing to do with the current financial crisis at all.”
    That’s the end of balanced budgets, though they were never my biggest interest anyway, since no company on earth works without debt, as long as it’s well managed.
    Yes, “well managed”.

    What a country.

    JAR (6b0755)

  224. You tell me, Icy, what are the consequences of borrowing and blowing $1 trillion on a good will mission in the desert?
    – The world is a little bit better overall.

    Or running up $4.5 trillion in deficits the past 7 years?
    – YOU tell the damn Dumbocrats to stop spending!

    Or doing nothing to fix the most expensive heath care system in the world?
    – The fact that so much of it is free market means that there is no “system” to fix. As for helping to reduce costs, if the u-no-hu’s would agree to tort reform. . .

    Icy Truth (7b38bb)

  225. “jharp – 2) get on the horn and tell the regulators to have the market go back up will ya, what are you waiting for?”

    daleyrocks,

    It’s too late.

    3) I’m sure everybody will be very happy the day the government begins setting pay scales for everybody.

    Put the crack pipe away. No one is proposing any such thing.

    “Look up runs on financial companies. It’s clear you don’t understand the concept. Use Schumer and IndyMac as an example, but for Lehman and Merrill, the consequences are faster and more extreme.”

    Are you out of your mind? Don’t know who Schumer is but Indymac was insolvent. As were Lehman and Merrill. Though the Bank of America shareholders bailed out Merrill to the tune of $37 billion.

    Great day to be a Bank of America shareholder.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  226. who authored the deregulation law that most agree is the ultimate cause of today’s financial meltdown.

    JAR – Internet detective and noted fabulist Josh Marshall’s quote above gave me my biggest laugh tonight.

    HAHAHAHA

    MOST believe!!!!11!1

    Right

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  227. Don’t know who Schumer is

    Yup.

    You’re a moron.

    You can’t even follow the simple instruction of “look up”.

    Shumer is a classic example. Christ, it was in my econ 110 book.

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  228. “jharp, the government’s deficits have nothing to do with the current financial crisis at all.”

    Really? Is that so?

    Then kindly share with me exactly why deficits are bad.

    Because Barack Obama sucks.

    “And our health care system is even less related.”

    And I had no idea this was true either.

    Why is it then, that we need to address health care costs at all?

    Because Barack Obama sucks.

    nk (189a81)

  229. Don’t know who Schumer is but Indymac was insolvent.

    Google is your friend.

    The controversy started on June 27th when Senator Chuck Schumer’s office released a letter sent to various bank regulatory agencies calling into question Indymac Bank’s viability and urging steps be taken to prevent the bank’s collapse. The public disclosure of the letter from Chuck Schumer, who serves on both the Senate Finance Committee and the Senate Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs Committee, resulted in an eleven day run on Indymac that resulted in the withdrawl of more than $1.3 billion dollars.

    John Reich, the director of the Office of Thrift Supervision, blamed the Indymac bank failure on the comments made in Senator Chuck Schumer’s letter. Reich suggested that Schumer had given the bank a “heart attack.”

    Well, yeah. It was insolvent after that.

    Pablo (99243e)

  230. MOST believe!!!!11!1

    If “most believers” was the deciding factor in something being true, then I believe the Earth would still be flat, and the interior of Africa would be ruled by the monsters that “be there”…

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  231. You tell me, Icy, what are the consequences of borrowing and blowing $1 trillion on a good will mission in the desert?
    – The world is a little bit better overall.

    Wrong. And if true completely at the expense of the U.S. What a guy that George Bush is. Putting the world ahead of the United States.

    Or running up $4.5 trillion in deficits the past 7 years?
    – YOU tell the damn Dumbocrats to stop spending!

    I had no idea. It’s been the democrats in charge the past 7 years?

    You been hitting the crack pipe with daleyrocks?

    Or doing nothing to fix the most expensive heath care system in the world?
    – The fact that so much of it is free market means that there is no “system” to fix. As for helping to reduce costs, if the u-no-hu’s would agree to tort reform. . .

    You are a fool if you think tort reform has anything to do with it.

    Comment by Icy Truth — 9/15/2008 @ 9:06 pm

    jharp (f4bed7)

  232. He does realize that the US govt doesn’t borow money from US banks, right? that it’s basicly loans to other countries?

    I mean, he knows that, right?

    Comment by Scott Jacobs — 9/15/2008 @ 9:00 pm

    What in God’s name are you talking about?

    jharp (f4bed7)

  233. Link-O-Matic pasted: Hey and good news or something Kissinger Backs Direct Talks ‘Without Conditions’ with Iran Somebody catch me I think I’m going to faint.

    – We HAVE been engaged in direct talks without conditions! Maybe not at a level as high as Kissinger would like, but we HAVE been talking.

    Icy Truth (7b38bb)

  234. “Shumer is a classic example. Christ, it was in my econ 110 book.”

    “The controversy started on June 27th when Senator Chuck Schumer’s office released a letter sent to various bank regulatory agencies calling into question Indymac Bank’s viability and urging steps be taken to prevent the bank’s collapse.”

    So I guess you are still in econ 110?

    You guys are ridiculous.

    You don’t honestly think that Schumer’s statements had anything to do with the Indymac failure.

    Give me a break. Do you really believe his remarks had anything to do with it?

    jharp (f4bed7)

  235. That Phil Gramm dude, he’s almost as scary as Dick Cheney and Karl Rove put together. Devil incarnate he is. Gotta hide the wife and kids and piggy bank around Phil Gramm.

    Phil Gramm is almost as scary as John Bolton’s moustache, but nowhere near as scary as John Bolton himself.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  236. We need better trolls!

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  237. Wrong. And if true completely at the expense of the U.S. What a guy that George Bush is. Putting the world ahead of the United States.
    – So you recognize and acknowledge that John “Country First” McCain is different than George “Neocon” Bush?

    I had no idea. It’s been the democrats in charge the past 7 years?
    – Never said there wasn’t guilt on both sides; however, look at the earmark totals and sponsorship of spending bills.

    You been hitting the crack pipe with daleyrocks?
    – (Promised Patterico I’d be nice. Reference to tapping someone’s mom with nk deleted.)

    You are a fool if you think tort reform has anything to do with it.
    – Yeah. What good would reducing the amount doctors have to pay for malpractice insurance possibly have to do with what they charge patients?

    Icy Truth (7b38bb)

  238. Why is it then, that we need to address health care costs at all?

    jharp – How are those health care costs related to the financial crisis at Lehman and Merrill and AIG today? I’m not seeing the linkage?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 9/15/2008 @ 9:05 pm

    Do you remember in econ 101 the guns and butter lesson.

    And the answer is because every dollar spend on health care is one less dollar spent elsewhere.

    American’s spend about $7,200 per capita on health care. About twice what the rest of the industrialized world does.

    It is a stifling cost to small business and every American.

    It is crippling our economy. As is the war of choice and the deregulation of our financial institutions.

    All policies McCain has promised to continue.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  239. “You are a fool if you think tort reform has anything to do with it.
    – Yeah. What good would reducing the amount doctors have to pay for malpractice insurance possibly have to do with what they charge patients?”

    Do the math. It doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  240. “– We HAVE been engaged in direct talks without conditions! Maybe not at a level as high as Kissinger would like, but we HAVE been talking.”
    Icy, you’re an idiot.

    “McCain’s new ad, released on Day 3 of the Democratic National Convention, quotes Obama saying that Iran is a “tiny” country that “doesn’t pose a serious threat.”
    …Obama actually said of Iran, Cuba and Venezuela: “These countries are tiny compared to the Soviet Union”

    Reuters:”Dealing with Iran has become an issue in the November presidential election campaign, with Democrat Barack Obama and Republican John McCain sparring over Obama’s stated readiness to talk to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and other U.S. adversaries if elected president.
    McCain has criticized Obama’s stand, saying it shows naivete and inexperience.”

    JAR (6b0755)

  241. Wrong. And if true completely at the expense of the U.S. What a guy that George Bush is. Putting the world ahead of the United States.
    – So you recognize and acknowledge that John “Country First” McCain is different than George “Neocon” Bush?

    Not a chance.

    How could McCain possibly believe Governor Palin was the most qualified VP candidate?

    He failed miserably his first test.

    I do believe McCain believes in getting elected at all costs, even if America might end up with a PTA hockey Mom, religious kook, in charge of the most powerful country on the earth, if that is what it takes to rally the snake handlers and have any chance at all of winning the election.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  242. JAR #223 – the end of balanced budgets, though they were never my biggest interest anyway, since no company on earth works without debt, as long as it’s well managed.

    jharp #220 – “jharp, the government’s deficits have nothing to do with the current financial crisis at all.”
    Really? Is that so?
    Then kindly share with me exactly why deficits are bad.

    You two should talk.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  243. Excuse me Perigee, bus as I’ve said, democrats don’t have to agree.
    I was just having fun with a winger saying deficits don’t matter.

    JAR (6b0755)

  244. Good! Let’s talk about the economy. No more distractions. No more talk about personalities and biography. Issues! It’s the economy, stupid!

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  245. And the answer is because every dollar spend on health care is one less dollar spent elsewhere.

    That’s true as long as you restrict the income source to the Gub-mint.

    However, if you allow the market to determine monetary allocation, then there’s no real limit to the source of funding.

    Thanks for disproving the value of Government run healthcare.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  246. I’ll sign off with another link.
    The Medical Malpractice Myth. University Of Chicago Press 2005
    (From The University of Chicago Series on Sexuality, History, and Society.)

    G’night kids.

    JAR (6b0755)

  247. JAR #243 – bus as I’ve said

    It’s very dangerous for an Obama worshipper supporter to mention the word ‘bus’.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  248. love #244 – No more talk about personalities and biography.

    Don’t abandon Obama when he needs you!

    Apogee (366e8b)

  249. “Thanks for disproving the value of Government run healthcare.”
    Peri you fucking idiot, We had this argument on this page recently. Everyone agreed we should all move to France.

    done

    JAR (6b0755)

  250. #246 – From reviewer Richard Durbin, Senator from Illinois – “It’s not the lawyers! It’s the Doctors (Republicans)! Don’t look over here!”

    Great link – complete proof of concept, just not proof of fact.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  251. Tisk Tisk, JAR. Losing your fake cool?

    I thought you were off to dreamland – Not the one during the day, the one during the night.

    You’ve been done for a while. Time to stick a fork in you.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  252. Apogee

    And the answer is because every dollar spend on health care is one less dollar spent elsewhere.

    “That’s true as long as you restrict the income source to the Gub-mint.”

    Wrong. It is true regardless of who is the recipient.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  253. Ah, the old permanent size pie routine. Unfortunately, it fails to explain the creation of wealth, and is a false argument.

    If you insist on a static view of wealth, you then would logically insist on a static view of value?

    Apogee (366e8b)

  254. How could McCain possibly believe Governor Palin was the most qualified VP candidate? He failed miserably his first test.
    – Was there any chance that you were gonna vote for him? That’s right; he didn’t actually “fail” anything, even in your eyes.

    Do the math. It doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.
    – Do the Bartman. That makes as much sense as your non sequiter.

    I do believe McCain believes in getting elected at all costs, even if America might end up with a PTA hockey Mom, religious kook, in charge of the most powerful country on the earth, if that is what it takes to rally the snake handlers and have any chance at all of winning the election.
    – So all of the undecided voters are religious kooks?

    Icy Truth (7b38bb)

  255. America might end up with a PTA hockey Mom, religious kook

    Why is it so hard for the left to spell Governor?

    Apogee (366e8b)

  256. “So all of the undecided voters are religious kooks?”

    Not how I see it.

    But I do see it that McCain opted for a completely unqualified VP in order to appeal to the religious kooks.

    Seriously, what’s that say about today’s GOP that the best candidate they could come up with is a 7,000 town’s mayor, and 18 month governor of a 650,000 population state, who lies about earmarks, lies about the bridge to nowhere, and hides from the press.

    If that is the best the GOP can do your party is in a world of hurt.

    And for the record I actually liked McCain until after he won the nomination and started his appeal to the Bible freaks.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  257. rockmom #136
    Thank you for your explanation. I was drowning in B.S. until your comment. It makes great sense in a “Congress is where deals get made” sort of way. If Congress wasn’t where deals got made then all that office space on K street would be rented out to someone else.

    EdWood (d193c2)

  258. and 18 month governor of a 650,000 population state

    Qualifiers, qualifiers. Now it’s about population we see. Never mind that Delaware has a pop of 853K. So, it’s that extra 200K people that makes Biden a much better a choice. Even though he’s a Senator, and not a Governor. Funny though, wasn’t it Rod Blagojevich (Governor of Illinois) that stated on the record that it was a mistake to attack Palin for being a Governor? And wasn’t the line of his reasoning that Governors have actual executive experience over legislators?

    Hmmm. Doesn’t seem like it’s the GOP that’s in a “world of hurt”.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  259. Facharbeiterarschlochrasiermesser -

    Icy, you’re an idiot.

    – And you’re a waste of space; such as, the waste of space you perpetrated in saying (I guess) that I was wrong, and then not printing a single thing that actually refuted what I wrote.

    Icy Truth (7b38bb)

  260. “So, it’s that extra 200K people that makes Biden a much better a choice.”

    No it’s more stuff like this.

    “Biden is also a long-time member and current chairman of the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations. In 1997, he became the ranking minority member and chaired the committee from June 2001 through 2003. When Democrats re-took control of the Senate following the 2006 elections, Biden again assumed the top spot on the committee in 2007. ”

    Biden is a long-time member of the U.S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary, which he chaired from 1987 until 1995 and on which he served as ranking minority member from 1981 until 1987 and again from 1995 until 1997.”

    This, was while your Jesus freak PTA hockey Mom was running for mayor of Podunk, Alaska.

    You see the difference?

    jharp (f4bed7)

  261. And while Palin was running for Governor of Alaska against entrenched and corrupt political opponents from the same party, your precious, precious Joe Biden was slapping backs and making deals on K street, pausing briefly to gaze out his office windows just long enough to see paper mache corporate effigies parading down Pennsylvania avenue surrounded by signs that read “Stop Crony Capitalism Now!”.

    “Retards”, Joe laughed to himself before turning to deliver his “I’ve been a member of Congress for 35 years” speech to his lobbyist friends.

    Do you see the difference?

    Apogee (366e8b)

  262. Me: “So all of the undecided voters are religious kooks?”
    jharp: Not how I see it.
    – Okay, that’s not how you see it.

    But I do see it that McCain opted for a completely unqualified VP in order to appeal to the religious kooks.
    – If the religious kooks aren’t the undecided voters, who are they . . . the decided voters? Or are you flip-flopping and saying that it really is how you see it?

    Seriously, what’s that say about today’s GOP that the best candidate they could come up with is a 7,000 town’s mayor, and 18 month governor of a 650,000 population state, who lies about earmarks, lies about the bridge to nowhere, and hides from the press.
    – What does it say about you that all you can come up with are the same old bullshit talking points?

    If that is the best the GOP can do your party is in a world of hurt.
    – And yet, you couldn’t STFU about it, even if someone offered you a winning Powerball ticket in exchange for never mentioning it again. You are terrified.

    And for the record I actually liked McCain until after he won the nomination and started his appeal to the Bible freaks.
    – Millions of voters attend church once a week (including John McCain). The reason why he should ignore them is WHAT?

    Icy Truth (7b38bb)

  263. Biden is a long-time member of the U.S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary, which he chaired from 1987 until 1995 and on which he served as ranking minority member from 1981 until 1987 and again from 1995 until 1997.”
    This, was while your Jesus freak PTA hockey Mom was running for mayor of Podunk, Alaska.
    You see the difference?

    – Her political philosophy and positions on the issues are right; his are wrong. You see the difference?

    Icy Truth (7b38bb)

  264. jharp breaks out the religious bigotry when all else fails. Nicely done.

    Malpractice insurance costs don’t amount to a hill of beans – Your ignorance is bliss jharp.

    Product liability insurance doesn’t amount to a hill of beans for the drug makers either in your world.

    Put down dailykos, TPM, Talking Points Memo, MyDD, the Nation, Bill Maher, Keith Olbermann, Huffington Post and catch up with reality.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  265. And for the record I actually liked McCain until after he won the nomination and started his appeal to the Bible freaks.
    – Millions of voters attend church once a week (including John McCain). The reason why he should ignore them is WHAT?

    I hope you know the difference between a regualr church goer and a Bible freak. If not please let me know and I’d be happy to explain.

    If that is the best the GOP can do your party is in a world of hurt.
    – And yet, you couldn’t STFU about it, even if someone offered you a winning Powerball ticket in exchange for never mentioning it again. You are terrified.

    Not at all. I’ll be fine. It’s my country I’m concerned about.

    Seriously, what’s that say about today’s GOP that the best candidate they could come up with is a 7,000 town’s mayor, and 18 month governor of a 650,000 population state, who lies about earmarks, lies about the bridge to nowhere, and hides from the press.
    – What does it say about you that all you can come up with are the same old bullshit talking points?

    You now refer to the truth as talking points?

    I hope I live long enough to see the GOP return to some sense of normalcy.

    Add to quote JAR. G’night kids.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  266. Those godbotherers are coming to get you jharp.

    Just look out your window.

    They want to control your life.

    Muahahahaha!!!!!

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  267. I hope I live long enough to see the GOP return to some sense of normalcy.

    Your lifespan has nothing to do with it. Your ability to ‘see’ does.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  268. I can’t believe that I actually read through this entire thread. What a colossal waste of time.
    Karl, good reporting and well sourced. Thank you for your efforts.
    JAR and jharp: Get some new talking points and actually try researching somewhere other than the leftist blogs.

    There is plenty of blame to go around. Both Democrat and Republican politicians made bad mistakes and supported legislation basically written by lobbyists. Then there was the blatant greed and criminal wrongdoing by a few in positions of trust at each of these large institutions.

    The key thing to remember is that the market will recover after a period of correction. We should basically take a step back and allow the markets to work. The weak companies that made bad decisions will be bought or absorbed by other companies that made better choices. Some people will lose real money while others will lose money that never existed except on paper. If I invest $1000 when the stock is $10 a share, the stock soars to $500 a share, then collapses back to $10, have I really “lost” that $490,000? If I bought my house for $250,000 watched it appreciate to $750,000, then drop back down to $350,000, have I really “lost” anything unless I sell?

    Take the long view and keep investing in solid companies that make something that people need or in services that will always be in demand. Some great bargains to be picked up over the next couple of years. Isn’t that the way the markets work? For every loser, there is a savvy buyer that could become the next Kennedy or Rockefeller?

    Jay Curtis (8f6541)

  269. #268 Jay Curtis – We should basically take a step back and allow the markets to work.

    No, no, no, Jay! That’s a huge mistake.

    First, people’s feelings will get hurt. Then what?

    The course of action should be similar to Japan’s in the 1990′s+, where they would ‘save face’ and have the government prevent financial institutions from failing after said entities had made horrendous financial decisions. That way, we can totally destroy our credit rating and prolong the malaise for a good decade or longer.

    You really don’t know anything about Economics.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  270. #269

    8-)

    Jay Curtis (8f6541)

  271. ” We should basically take a step back and allow the markets to work”

    That’s not what’s happening, it it?

    JAR (6b0755)

  272. JAR and harpy can bring the fire. Not much substance, and certainly not much in the way of informed opinion.

    JD (41e64f)

  273. And I’ll post this again

    The Fed added that it was suspending a rule that normally prohibits deposit-taking banks from using deposits to help finance their investment banking subsidiaries to allow them to fund activities normally funded in the repo market on a temporary basis until January 30 2009.

    Think about that for a minute.

    Another repeat: “Not much substance”
    Right

    JAR (6b0755)

  274. Citing manbearpig, oops, I mean firedoglake is about as credible as citing Kos, JAR. Have they done anyone in blackface recently?

    JD (41e64f)

  275. JAR – You keep linking to that Firedog piece, whick links back to a Financial Time piece. Here is a link to the actual press release put out by the Federal Reserve on Sunday explaining what they did. Please explain to me how you Firedog fits in the context of that. I don’t see it.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  276. It means your personal bank accounts are now collateral.

    JAR (ab000b)

  277. Not Much content II

    And a Gubmint bailout of AIG is back on the table. Nobody else wants to touch it.

    JAR (ab000b)

  278. “It means your personal bank accounts are now collateral.”

    JAR – Show me where the revised Fed rules says it allows that, not what Firedog or FT says. I gave you the source documents.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  279. daleyrocks – You are giving it way too much credit. It has no idea what any of that actually means, he is just doing copy and paste hit jobs.

    JD (41e64f)

  280. “Not what Firedog or FT [The Financial Times] says.”

    The Financial Times: Communist Front Organization?

    Federal Reserve Act Section 23A.

    JAR (ab000b)

  281. daleyrocks – As I said, it does not have any clue what it is copying and pasting. It is just a good twatwaffle foot soldier.

    JD (41e64f)

  282. Just catching up after being out-of-town for a while….
    Jay @ #268…Ditto!
    There is a lot of “Stuck On Stupid” here;

    Note to Oiram @ #122…
    Ronald McDonald and his family would be a rich and happy clown.”
    Actually, Mrs. Joan Kroc (widow of McDonald’s Inc, founder Ray Kroc) is a “rich and happy clown” –
    a registered Dem, BTW!

    Another Drew (1b62fd)

  283. #

    JAR and harpy can bring the fire. Not much substance, and certainly not much in the way of informed opinion.

    Comment by JD — 9/16/2008 @ 7:23 am

    Says the corporate tool who uses his company’s policies to pay as few claims as possible, complains about plaintiff’s lawyers, lives in 7000 sq ft house, and thinks he’s part of the solution.

    Johnny, what happens to your fancy house tomorrow if you elect McCain and Gramm and the people who allow insurers and banks to implode inward? Your bias toward corporate oligarchy governance is showing, my man, and right now, that seems to be the most ill-placed sense of loyalty since Caesar decided to walk to the Forum alone.

    Hope your company doesn’t go the way of AIG.

    timb (a83d56)

  284. Johnny, what happens to your fancy house tomorrow if you elect McCain and Gramm and the people who allow insurers and banks to implode inward? Your bias toward corporate oligarchy governance is showing, my man, and right now, that seems to be the most ill-placed sense of loyalty since Caesar decided to walk to the Forum alone.

    It will be safer than under Obama.

    Or don’t you recall some of the things the Dems have said/done/not done to take care of the economy?

    Check the links in the main article, and read the link in the first comment. Open thy eyes, and awaken!!!

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  285. Scott, I like the title of your blog (I assume it’s yours).

    timb (a83d56)

  286. Says the corporate tool who uses his company’s policies to pay as few claims as possible, complains about plaintiff’s lawyers, lives in 7000 sq ft house, and thinks he’s part of the solution.

    Johnny, what happens to your fancy house tomorrow if you elect McCain and Gramm and the people who allow insurers and banks to implode inward? Your bias toward corporate oligarchy governance is showing, my man, and right now, that seems to be the most ill-placed sense of loyalty since Caesar decided to walk to the Forum alone.

    Hope your company doesn’t go the way of AIG.

    timmah – In case you had not noticed, I do not care for you. That you continue to dwell on my occupation, blatantly lie about me and my profession, and reference me and my family on this thread and on other blogs is kind of spooky. Grow up. Go away.

    JD (41e64f)

  287. JD…
    Sounds like InterNet-Stalking to me.
    Isn’t there a law against that?

    Another Drew (8a6fd1)

  288. I post, you call me stupid, I defend myself, you whine. Shocking.

    PS Is this the part where you run away like did at Caric’s place?

    timb (a83d56)

  289. You act like an ass, get called an ass, and then act surprised, or get the vapors. Scurry back under your rock or go tell Caric how mean we racists are. If you think I ran away from you or caric, you are sadly mistaken. I pity you. I feel sorry for you. I am in no way scared of you, except for the fact that you appear to have some weird obsession with me and my family and my house. Get help.

    JD (41e64f)

  290. Coward

    JD (41e64f)

  291. funny, JD would never tell me what he did for a living when asked. Thanks fellow ‘banned one’ tim for hinting at it.

    JD spends company time stalking people on the web for his obnoxious pleasure, name-calling of “moonbats” without any substantive argument behind his creative monikers but ever secretive about his own corrupt business. Figures, Insurance.

    Now, some substance. Karl’s made a useless point of saying Liberals are responsible for lending poor people esp. “people of color”, unsustainable loans, forcing banks to pony up for new homebuyers (that helped make Bush 2 look good for increasing percentage of home ownership on his watch..ouch..now we know the costs). What utter Rot! Brokers thought the future earnings (without collateral) would prop up Wall Street for generations with Serfs paying ever higher interest rates. and then compounded it by making fake markets with shadow money and sold each other bills of goods into trillions of dollars of false earnings. Republicans like Christopher Cox should be given credit for our nation’s financial demise.. let’s not blame it on the victims, But that’s JD’s and the GOP’s favorite game.

    Go play some golf, buddy, and stop trolling those who want a discussion. bye, Jd. At least Patterico doesn’t encourage aimless nasty name calling and abuse like Catch-as-Catch-Can Jeffo.

    I try not to get involved as much in these blogs as it’s the owner’s site and others should contribute with respect when the owner doesn’t seem to attack and bully those who might argue and disagree…(unlike that which is noticeably disrespectful as at ProteinWisdom)

    as much as I agree with some of the left of center people here we also should not be obnoxious except when being attacked by the likes of JD.

    datadave (e0f125)

  292. Patterico – You have a nasty infestation here recently. It appears to be a direct result of the Sully posts. It is contagious.

    dataless – You are an overt liar. I repeatedly told you I worked in insurance. You accuse me of stalking? Between you and timmah, it is hard to discern who is more reprehensible.

    If you took out a loan and could not pay for it, whose fault is it, dataless?

    JD (41e64f)


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