Patterico's Pontifications

9/11/2008

Doctor “Worried” Palin’s Example Will Mean Fewer Abortions

Filed under: 2008 Election,Abortion,General — Patterico @ 8:28 am



A Canadian doctor is worried that Sarah Palin’s decision to have a Down’s Syndrome child will lower Canada’s abortion rate:

[O]hers fear Ms. Palin’s emergence as a parental role model sends a different message. As a vocal opponent of abortion, Ms. Palin’s widely discussed decision to keep her baby, knowing he would be born with the condition, may inadvertently influence other women who may lack the necessary emotional and financial support to do the same, according to André Lalonde, executive vice-president of the Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Canada.

Dr. Lalonde said that above all else, women must be free to choose, and that popular messages to the contrary could have detrimental effects on women and their families.

“The worry is that this will have an implication for abortion issues in Canada,” he said..

This guy is actually worried that women will have fewer abortions because of Sarah Palin.

Abortion: safe, legal, and (far too) rare. Now there’s a great slogan, doc.

I’m sure this guy would be just thrilled if Palin had proudly proclaimed that she had had an abortion.

Bizarre.

103 Responses to “Doctor “Worried” Palin’s Example Will Mean Fewer Abortions”

  1. These people need speech coaches. Not to improve delivery but to teach them to stop and engage the brain before opening the mouth.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  2. Well, that’s why they’re Canadians and we’re Americans. I do like Canadian bacon on my pizza, though. Do they do anything else?

    nk (d681ef)

  3. You make your pick and you get your choice.

    You can choose to consider that people who have a disability aren’t human enough to live, or you can choose to hold human life sacred and to be protected as possible.

    This kind of thinking is somewhere on the sliding slope of eugenics and its consequences, just where on the slope is a topic I will not address.

    Meanwhile, it has been said in the US that “apparently her main qualification for VP is never having an abortion” (not exact, but I believe close enough).

    If people want to make this an election about who has the courage to live out their convictions, please be my guest.

    Bizarre indeed, the world gone mad, taking the best of human civilization, compassion for the weak, and turning it on its head.

    This sounds to me like the old saying, “I love humanity, it’s people I can’t stand.”

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  4. This is a Canadian doctor so it makes sense that he would support eugenic abortion. Under national health care, the state has to pay more for special needs children. That means less money is available for “normal” children. See? This good doctor is only trying to protect the health care budget. Doesn’t that make you feel better??

    I need to bookmark this story for the next time someone tells me that we need national health care here in America.

    Mike A (1ac7a0)

  5. To Mike K-

    I think the problem is that they are saying things that are perfectly in keeping with what they do think and feel. Of course, they could use a speech coach to help them just keep their mouth shut, but I prefer they advertise their point of view and let patients choose with their feet.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  6. Can someone invite this piece of work to go on vacation in the Yukon?

    And then invite Governor* Palin to go on a frog hunt along the border?

    [* = That’s right! Governor — not “Ms.”; the deliberate repetition of this slur by the news media is becoming more pathetic every day.]

    Icy Truth (d55d4c)

  7. Do they do anything else?

    Give safe harbor to draft dodgers.

    Old Coot (2f3a50)

  8. Do they do anything else?

    Give us crappy comedians?

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  9. OMG People might start to bring their babies to term and not abort! How absolutely Wonderful!

    J. Raymond Wright (d83ab3)

  10. Most Canadian doctors are no different than American doctors: pro-choice, with the caveat that “choice” doesn’t really mean choice, it’s just a euphemism for abortion. If the woman chooses not to abort, then it wasn’t a “choice,” by definition.

    Xrlq (62cad4)

  11. They also give us a lot of Hockey Players. Although lately we’ve been getting more and more of them from Europe. Hey der. Didn’t they give us schwiiiiing too? And Molsen’s

    J. Raymond Wright (d83ab3)

  12. Medical ethics is now an oxymoron.

    huerfano (ab9f92)

  13. I do like Canadian bacon on my pizza, though. Do they do anything else?

    Canadian Bacon…

    Canada’s greatest secret.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  14. Well, this should put the lie to the claim that “nobody is pro-abortion”.

    Milhouse (89df7f)

  15. Thank you, Scott!!

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  16. Well, that’s why they’re Canadians and we’re Americans. I do like Canadian bacon on my pizza, though. Do they do anything else?

    Yup. We’re not all passive-aggressive effetes.

    ras (fc54bb)

  17. “The worry is that this will have an implication for abortion issues in Canada,” he said.

    It sounds like everyone is reading far too much into this. A very public woman has had a Down’s Syndrome baby and has framed it in the context of her views on abortion. What the speaker is saying is that this might affect the way people talk and think about abortion. That’s all.

    And on Down’s Syndrome, of course the people who have Down’s Syndrome deserve to live, but raising a Down’s child can be so harrowing and draining that it would be wrong to force anyone to do it. The best person to evaluate a woman’s inner strength is the woman herself.

    So you don’t believe that no one is pro-abortion, Milhouse? Try this thought experiment: A person who is truly pro-choice will defend with equal vehemence a woman’s right to terminate her pregnancy and her right to continue it. Planned Parenthood supplies abortion services, but it also supplies sex ed and prenatal care. PP is pro-choice. I’m apprehensive about Ms. Palin’s political views, but I’m happy that she was free to choose whether or not to have Trig and that he is healthy. I am pro-choice.

    DRF (8a41ed)

  18. I prefer they advertise their point of view and let patients choose with their feet

    I agree. I should add that I am pro-choice and think we need to have a Republican national health plan. I have even
    done some thinking about it. But these people just open their yaps and out come stupid comments. None of them mention that “family planning” came straight from eugenics and Margaret Sanger, their heroine, was a racist. Nor is it mentioned that 70% of black pregnancies end in abortion. That’s higher than Down’s Syndrome pregnancies, but close.

    Mike K (f89cb3)

  19. Pro-Life … it’s for the children

    Remember abortions don’t always hurt the people that have them, but they absolutely kill at least one person involved.

    Lord Nazh (ce25e3)

  20. Didn’t Palin abort the “Bridge to Nowhere” ?

    Neo (cba5df)

  21. How many adoptions does Planned Parenthood arrange? Don’t know, just askin’.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  22. It’s too bad the unborn child does not have a “choice”.

    great banana (e66874)

  23. Does NOW have any position on the genocide abortions of females in China? Perhaps we should have public disclosure of who had American abortions and how many each? If a witch hunt aimed at Sarah and Bristol is pertinent, why not all vaginas?

    At least the left here have their hearts in the right place. Society is to blame for the acts of killers. Personal responsibility should be ignored when society made life difficult for our misunderstood killers. Republican racism that keeps the brothers down on the Plantation frustrates many minority yoots. Everyone has a right to bling, ho’s and crack. One might wonder how good it would make most of us feel to shit down death row or even give amnesty to the broken souls housed there. I’m sure mumia abu jamal would make a strong advocate for his race’s needs and dreams. And Mike Farrell, Ed Asner and other great liberals would have a sense of accomplishment too. Those so-called victims should have been more alert or maybe even it is Natural Selection to improve the gene pool?
    What say you oriam, peter and love2hate?

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  24. genocide abortions of females in China

    It’s not just females; any urban woman who gets pregnant a second time will be forced to abort if it becomes known. No choice at all.

    Heather (7b49ef)

  25. max – Tookie chose death.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  26. Gee Whilikers! This is great news, I sure hope he’s right. It’s a darn good reason to vote McCain/Palin.

    Ropelight (921f6e)

  27. #17 A very public woman has had a Down’s Syndrome baby and has framed it in the context of her views on abortion. I disagree. Those who dislike her love of life have framedyour position.Read up on framing

    highpockets (9c7278)

  28. Someone pointed out on another blog that Gen X and Y voters tend to skew toward Obama. Those cohorts are 40 million voters short because of abortion.

    Add in the effects of the Pill on population distributions and the Baby Boomers will control the future of this country until they are all dead. Scary.

    quasimodo (edc74e)

  29. DRF — 9/11/2008 @ 11:17 am:

    What the speaker is saying is that this might affect the way people talk and think about abortion. That’s all.

    That’s not the way I read the article. It sounds like this doctor is concerned that it will “influence other women who may lack the necessary emotional and financial support to do the same” — that is, bring to term or even keep a baby they might otherwise have aborted.

    I think you’ve made the value judgment that having a “harrowing and draining” special needs child can be a bad thing. Many parents of special needs children say it is a good thing but let’s set aside the value judgments, shall we? The point here is that the doctor is complaining because people have seen a real family coping with a special needs child. Your comment notes that Planned Parenthood provides services and information, suggesting that more information is a good thing. So why do you think this information is a bad thing?

    I submit it’s because you want a pro-abortion entity like Planned Parenthood to be the gatekeeper of how abortion information is presented, and what you object to is someone framing a special needs child in a more positive way.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  30. Attack this guy for making stupid not completely thought out remarks. Don’t attack Canada because the guy is a Canadian! You Americans couldn’t last a week without Canada’s resources(not just bacon)! I bet you can find quite a few American abortion doctors who believe the same thing.

    CGK (109282)

  31. CGK,

    Relax, man, relax. And follow my previous link (comment 16) to feel better. At least our gaffs are better than Obama’s gaffes!

    ras (fc54bb)

  32. #17 – DRF

    It sounds like everyone is reading far too much into this.
    — It’s always good to lead with a lame non sequiter, isn’t it?

    A very public woman has had a Down’s Syndrome baby and has framed it in the context of her views on abortion.
    — Because she knew beforehand, and chose to have her baby, she therefore has “framed” it in the context of abortion? With that standard every birth to every mother could be framed in the context of abortion. What about Bridget McCain’s birth mother? Has anyone tracked her down to ask what she knew beforehand?

    What the speaker is saying is that this might affect the way people talk and think about abortion. That’s all.
    — He is specifically expressing a concern that it will be affected negatively . . . by his definition of what is negative.

    And on Down’s Syndrome, of course the people who have Down’s Syndrome deserve to live, but raising a Down’s child can be so harrowing and draining that it would be wrong to force anyone to do it. The best person to evaluate a woman’s inner strength is the woman herself.
    — Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. Thanks, however, for coming closer than the less-thoughtful people here when it comes to the correct spelling of “Down’s syndrome”.

    So you don’t believe that no one is pro-abortion, Milhouse? Try this thought experiment: A person who is truly pro-choice will defend with equal vehemence a woman’s right to terminate her pregnancy and her right to continue it. Planned Parenthood supplies abortion services, but it also supplies sex ed and prenatal care. PP is pro-choice. I’m apprehensive about Ms. Palin’s political views, but I’m happy that she was free to choose whether or not to have Trig and that he is healthy. I am pro-choice.
    — And all of that blather proves that no one is pro-abortion HOW?

    Icy Truth (3b614c)

  33. CGK – Canada has a symbiotic relationship with the U.S. It’s our largest trading partner and vice versa.

    Canadian Exports to U.S.

    Of the $303.4 billion in American imports from Canada in 2006, the following product categories had the highest values.

    Petroleum products …US$63.7 billion (21% of Canada to U.S. exports, up 6% from 2005)
    Passenger cars … $36.6 billion (12.5%, up 1.5%)
    Car parts & accessories … $15.6 billion (5.1%, down 2.5%)
    Complete & assembled cars … $12.2 billion (4%, down 2.3%)
    Aluminum … $7.7 billion (2.5%, up 36.1%)
    Lumber … $6.6 billion (2.2%, down 8.9%)
    Finishing materials (e.g. shingles, wallboard) … $5.9 billion (2.0%, down 10.7%)
    Plastics … $5.8 billion (1.9%, up 7.9%)
    Telecommunications … $4 billion (1.3%, down 0.7%)
    Engines & parts … $3.98 billion (1.3%, down 8.6%)

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  34. #30 – CGK

    Attack this guy for making stupid not completely thought out remarks.
    — We are. Are you not paying attention?

    Don’t attack Canada because the guy is a Canadian!
    — Blame Canada
    Blame Canada
    With all their hockey hullabaloo
    And that bitch Anne Murray too
    Blame Canada
    Shame on Canada
    For…
    The smut we must stop
    The trash we must bash
    The Laughter and fun
    Must all be undone
    We must blame them and cause a fuss
    Before somebody thinks of blaming uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus!!!!

    You Americans couldn’t last a week without Canada’s resources(not just bacon)!
    — America couldn’t last an hour out in the hot sun without its hat.

    I bet you can find quite a few American abortion doctors who believe the same thing.
    — That’s right. They’re all shitbags. Unfortunately for you, it was a Canadian doctor that chose to speak out first.

    Icy Truth (3b614c)

  35. Canada, or as my econ professor called it, North Montana…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  36. Patterico writes: “This guy is actually worried that women will have fewer abortions because of Sarah Palin”

    This Canadian doctor must be an idiot. Doesn’t he realize that Palin’s daughter is pregnant, even with her Mom’s abstinence advice?

    If Palin has an impact on women and teenagers in America the way she had on her 17 year old daughter, this doctor will have nothing to worry about.

    Unfortunately not everyone has the kind of resources that the Palin’s family has, the amount of abortions may have to go up with Palin’s abstinence lingo.

    Oiram (983921)

  37. So, is the Canadian Dr. worried that Down Syndrome infants will become a fad? Everyone will want one?

    Rachel Cohen (dae381)

  38. If Palin has an impact on women and teenagers in America the way she had on her 17 year old daughter, this doctor will have nothing to worry about.

    Thanks for re-inforcing my low opinion of you. Nicely done!

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  39. So, is the Canadian Dr. worried that Down Syndrome infants will become a fad? Everyone will want one?

    Comment by Rachel Cohen — 9/11/2008 @ 1:11 pm

    That’s right Rachel, sort of like a pet, except that they usually live a little long than most household pets.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  40. “Do they do anything else?”

    They’ve engaged in a wonderful experiment in the creation of speech code laws, which in Canuck Government – speak means “free speech for me, but not for thee.” It’s working out just dookey for them, ask Mark Steyn.

    Dmac (e639cc)

  41. #38 Ohh……. Scott, I’m so concerned about your opinion of me…….. darn. You mean we can’t go to the malt shop now?

    Boo F’n hoo.

    Oiram (983921)

  42. How aboot an ice cold Moosehead? Eh, ya hosers?

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  43. Put the puck in the net, eh, Jack.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  44. Oiram –

    Just when we think you can’t top yourself (or sink further), you do.

    Sarah’s “impact on women” will be to foster more teen pregnancy, which naturally will result in more abortions, is that it? This despite the fact that her goal is to severely reduce both.

    Well, I guess she couldn’t possibly be more wrong then, huh. . . .

    . . . or somebody is.

    Icy Truth (3b614c)

  45. I’m still pissed at the Toronto Blue Jays for the ’93 World Series. Damn Joe Carter. My direct memories of Canada are noticing that Windsor is basically a suburb of Detroit and that people in Quebec City are the meanest, snottiest SOBs I’ve ever encountered.

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  46. How aboot an ice cold Moosehead? Eh, ya hosers?

    Meet ya at the pub in Moosejaw and we’ll give ‘er.

    ras (fc54bb)

  47. A woman should have the right to choose whatever we tell her to.

    Generic Democrat (fc54bb)

  48. Hey,

    I loved the ’93 World Series.
    Paul Molitor was my man, even if he did “need a relay man to get the ball from 3rd to first”. What a great looking swing.

    CGK, I hope you have the idea that nobody meant to blame Canada for anything. The closest thing to that was how this guy’s view was consistent with the incentives of a national health care system- and we weren’t blaming Canada for that as much as commiserating and hoping it doesn’t come here. (Yes, the health care system needs help, but please don’t make it worse by putting the government in charge).

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  49. “A woman should have the right to choose whatever we tell her to.”

    You mean after she makes me a sammich and gets me a cold beer, right?

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  50. “…and that people in Quebec City are the meanest, snottiest SOBs I’ve ever encountered.”

    You’ve obviously never spent time in Montreal – they’re far worse than Quebec City. Beautiful city, wonderful cultural attractions – and complete asshats who insist on speaking a French dialect that hasn’t been in use since the 18th Century. As Triumph the Insult Comic Dog said to their faces not that long ago, “you’re in North America, speak the language!”

    Dmac (e639cc)

  51. Pat go ahead and ban be but your full of bullshit in publishing this nasty bit of trash. To think this represents mainstream Democratic thinking is a lie..something your folks love. But the larger question is Why in hell would we ever believe anything you Republicans say? Of course we dont have the time or resources to check out every single thing they say..which is of course, what you expect. If you do take the time to refute a charge they simply ignore your refutation and make another..

    Ok who to believe.. well there are two ways..

    Jesus was asked about a similar problem and he said By their Fruits You Shall Know Them..
    The fruits of this Republican party are war and social divisions and a growing gap between the rich and poor. Legalized torture and imprisonment without an opportunity to clear yourself. A party that fosters hate against gays. A party that has nearly bankrupt this nation with a falling dollar, a massive deficit and unemployment , and while social programs to help the middle and lower classes cut while the rich get more and more.. These are their fruits.. judge for yourself. Just forget the spin and look around..

    We also can note that this is the same party that had no hesitancy about creating a comparison between a triple amputee war vet Max Cleland and Osama Bin Ladin and Sadam Hussein. The same party whose darling Ann Coulter said Cleland was Lucky to have lost his arm and both legs so he could better criticize Bush! Ya!! Lucky to have lost both legs and one arm! And she claimed the military was wrong when it said he was injured in military action…she said it was an accident caused when he was drunk!!

    And she attacked the widows of nine eleven.. This is the party that smeared Kerry with delegates to the convention wearing false bandages to mock his medals! Ya they love vets alright!

    This party repeated the lie about a supposed connection between Al Quida and Saddam Hussein long after it had been proven false and this is the party that got us involved in Iraq for false reasons, known to be false at the time. ask Colin Powell if you dont believe me..and then viciously attacked anyone that questioned them.

    This is the party that would have you believe that Bush is wonderful but somehow there are these nasty problems and that McCain, who voted with Bush 90% of the time is going to change!

    This party continues to air spots made of outright lies.. They continue to say that Sarah Palin voted against earmarks while in fact her state got more per capita than any other.. She repeatedly claims she said “Thanks but no thanks” for money for the Bridge to Nowhere but she actually pushed for this and when the bridge was a national embarrassment and Congress said No..she simply took the money and applied it elsewhere. Now she claims SHE turned the money down. Bullshit.

    We also know what Obama meant with that pig remark and that McCain has used the same phrase.and we can see how they are manufacturing another outrage with more lies to create more hate and turmoil insisting he called Palin a pig..
    And most disgusting of all they now claim Obama wants to teach comprehensive sex education to kindergarteners. They do this by distorting a bill he voted for that would enable schools to teach young children about the dangers of sexual predators.. And of course they show him a sinister face with a rumpled suit ….Ya Sinister Blacks want sex for our toddlers!! Have they no shame?? and McCain talks about elevating the level of discourse all the while his campaign continues to air these shameful distortions?!

    And now this same group wants us to believe this info is true? and we all know damn well that if its refuted they will only create more crap.. because hate and lies are all they have to run on.. they dare not run on their miserable record of failure and deceit..

    I wonder if any one that reads this will open their eyes to the Rovian tactics of total destruction and realize what is going on and the threat to democracy and to the very fabric of the nation these tactics pose? George Mitchell said “Republicans will tear down the house in order to rule over the ruins” Be assured.. the ruination of the US Morally, financially and militarily is well under way. No nation or empire can last for ever and the US with its social fabric being torn apart ,its dollar in free fall and its economic base ruined will hardly be able to stand up to China in a few short years.. Isnt it time to change course..REALLY CHANGE COURSE..??

    VietEraVet (543dfe)

  52. So, what if I have a two-year-old, and I don’t have emotional and financial support? I suppose it’s ok to kill the little one, because I don’t have emotional and financial support. Oh, wait, that’s Casey Anthony. I forgot, our own personal trials shouldn’t set the value of our progenies’ lives. Apparently, that’s not a Canadian value.

    I guess not, when the state is paying for all the health care. Be careful what you wish for, your life is cheapened.

    winoceros (032efe)

  53. Hey, VietEraVet, why are you too cowardly to identify yourself ? You trolls love anonymity. What were you a veteran of ? I can guess.

    Mike K (f89cb3)

  54. Most likely a veteran of the gender wars, Mike.

    Dmac (e639cc)

  55. And most disgusting of all they now claim Obama wants to teach comprehensive sex education to kindergarteners. They do this by distorting a bill he voted for that would enable schools to teach young children about the dangers of sexual predators.. And of course they show him a sinister face with a rumpled suit ….Ya Sinister Blacks want sex for our toddlers!!

    VEV – Do you have anything at all to support the above drivel? The sex education is of course age appropriate, but indeed comprehensive. Have you taken a look at the curriculum? Do you have a link for the rumpled suit and sinister face? I didn’t see it in the ad. Perhaps somebody on your side is up to their old tricks and modifying the original campaign ad. It wouldn’t be the first time.

    Why don’t you do a little research before repeating talking points written by somebody else.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  56. From the bill that Obama voted for:

    Each class or course in comprehensive sex
    education offered in any of grades K through 12 shall include instruction on the prevention of sexually transmitted infections, including the prevention, transmission and spread of HIV. Nothing in this Section prohibits instruction in sanitation, hygiene or traditional courses in biology.

    ROA (924e20)

  57. Of course we dont have the time or resources to check out every single thing they say..which is of course, what you expect. If you do take the time to refute a charge they simply ignore your refutation and make another..

    — Comment by VietEraVet — 9/11/2008 @ 2:47 pm

    Patterico, DRJ, WLS, etc. all provide links to their sources in their posts (and usually generous relevant excerpts as well) to support the points they make. Most of the more thoughtful commenters here do the same when appropriate or when challenged on a point.

    The spray-and-pray method for “winning” by repeatedly spewing discredited nonsense in an attempt to drown out topical conversation better describes the tactic that you and your ideological brethren use on this blog.

    In the very comment where you make the original complaint, you go on to spout paragraph after paragraph full of wholly irrelevant talking points about Jesus, Ann Coulter, John Kerry, John McCain, Al Quida [sic], “Sinister Blacks”, George Mitchell, and China.

    But at no point do you bother to engage — or even acknowledge — the article from the original post or any of the observations that were made about it. You simply shriek a few epithets at Republicans / conservatives and then regurgitate a spam-quality wall of text that could have come straight off the Townhouse list.

    On the one hand, it’s amusing and encouraging to see how desperate you have become to not allow anyone to discuss topics you find embarassing (and I mean “you” in the plural, to include the people who have also been trying to derail the past several threads). But on the other hand, it’s disturbing to see a concerted effort to discourage thoughtful responses to the posts that Patterico, DRJ, and WLS have spent their time and effort writing.

    Shad (570754)

  58. hey Mike and the rest of you.. I am a vietnam era vet who served in the USAF from feb of 1969 Dec of 1972 at Clark AFB in the Philippine Islands. I was there when Marcos declared martial law and took over “temporarily” as a result of his reaction to Muslim bombing.

    My father served in the Army Air Corp and flew as a bombardier navigator in WW2 and was wounded by a German fighter plane over Bremen. He was declared 80 % disabled and later declared 100% disabled. He was a brave and loving man that I admire very much but I am quite sure that if he were alive today and against this senseless and criminal administration, they would ruthlessly smear him.

    He was an active member of the military organizations in the area, Springfield MA and when he died he was buried with full military honors. In fact there was an air show at Westover AFB and the planes coming into that show were directed by his friend some general over the Church where services were held. Just as the preacher was giving his sermon a plane could be heard in the distance and gradually it grew louder and louder streaking over the church at exactly the right moment. It was uncanny!

    My earliest memory as a child was of him telling stories about The Big One .. WW2 and how he saw his friend killed and their plane go down in flames with no parachute. I said to him “Dad you must hate Germans” I will never forget his response. He said “No son I dont..they were just young men who were fighting for their country and what they though was right, same as I was” That my friends is a true Christian and in spite of all the other problems in our family life growing up I will always remember that.

    He loved his country and loved the Air Force and all the military folks. I know he was torn as we all were over the Vietnam situation but he was a true Christian who was very active in the Church and loved his country and the men and women who served in uniform.

    You think you are so patriotic with your hateful and ignorant remarks and shallow patriotism and your eager willingness to send troops into action for lies and bullshit.. Let me tell you, Love of Country?? you havent got a clue!

    VietEraVet (543dfe)

  59. Hey shad why dont you tell us what you have to say to the mothers and daughters, sons and brothers and relatives of those that died thinking that they were eliminating WMDs in attacking Iraq only to discover that Bush is a god damned liar?

    And now you expect us to believe all these lies about Obama?

    And you want to tell us that the lies of the GOP in the past have no influence on the charges you are expecting us to swallow today? Bullshit..

    The article is irrelevant. Its clearly an attempt to attack the Democrats by associating them with some crackpot.

    VietEraVet (543dfe)

  60. VEV – All the hate in your comments is not very Christian. You are aware of course, that Ann Coulter does not work for the Republican Party. That’s always a nice try on the part of progressives, attributing what she says directly to the party.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  61. “He loved his country and loved the Air Force and all the military folks.”

    Why do you hate 50% of the country, then? Is that what you call “love of country?”

    Dmac (e639cc)

  62. Actually, on the 7th Anniversary of 9/11 all Americans should sit down quietly and think … 9/11 is the closest you have been to a war … imagine all the people who suffer a 9/11 every day because America attacked them.
    Mr Bush asks “why do they hate us?” … if he had thought about it, maybe he wouldnt need to ask the question!
    In my view there are 2 Americas … one that is jingoistic, militaristic and imperialistic … and the other America is the compassionate, kind and peaceloving America … i wonder which one will win the elections for that will reflect in the rest of the world … will we have war or peace? MacCain and Palin or Obama and Biden? … Everyone must think very carefully about their choice … it is NOT about being safe …it is about finally doing the right thing.

    Zeenath (29a7f5)

  63. All side tracks aside:

    We are talking about a physician who is the executive vice-president of the Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of a major industrialized nation, the specific nation is at most of secondary importance.*

    We don’t know if this physician is a Republican, Democrat, Communist, Tory, or what, and for this discussion it doesn’t make a bit of difference.

    The issue is that he is concerned that the choice of a mother to give life to her son with Down Syndrome will set the precedent, apparently considered a worrisome thing, that other women will be encouraged to give life to children with Down Syndrome or in other difficult situations.

    Once upon a time it was considered a virtue to be concerned about the weak and vulnerable and suffer hardship on the behalf of others. Now it’s seen as a disturbing trend. If you want to put people on the level of any other animal, then don’t be surprised when they act like animals, which is to let the vulnerable be the first to die. If that is the kind of society some want, they can have it. Yes, by their fruit you shall know them.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  64. #62 the clueless euroweenies want obama by a 4 to 1 margin. Why is that? And we read that a McCain victory will piss off Europe to such an extent that it will no longer be because of Bush’s evilways, but Americans themselves slapping Eurotwats in the face?
    Peace loving America? Does that mean singing Kumbaya and fellating Putin and ImADamnNutjob? Going along with nukes for Iran and destruction of Israel? Will the mad mullahs and filthy rich Saudi Princes reounce Jihad? Hate us less? I think liberals are for the most part clueless, ignorant unpatriotic saps who actually care what the UN and elites of Europe think of America. Who pays the lion’s share of the UN bills or provides for defense of Europe so that the ball-less Euros can spend their dough on other things? Who saved Europe’s bacon in WWII and whose Marshall plan rebuilt Europe from ruins?
    So we go back to isolationism amd wait for an attack at home? You peaceniks make me puke.

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  65. I will indulge in one last comment on a side-track.

    Zeenath, tell me, what did all of those Jews, Catholics, and others opposed to Nazism do to invite their just punishment at the hand of Hitler? What did those Ukrainians do to deserve the just action of being starved to death by Stalin? What did the Kuwaitis do to deserve the manhandling by Hussein? What did the skies over the Persian Gulf do to deserve the plumes of oily smoke as Hussein was driven out. What did those common Iraqi folk do to invite rape and being fed to meat grinders under Saddam while the French, Germans, and Russians supported him even as he was violating terms of cease-fires and Oil-for Food agreements?

    The United States is not perfect and has its problems, but the everyday citizen in Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Phillipines, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., etc. would not be better off if the US had not been around for the last 70 years. Unfortunately, those in S. Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia didn’t fair so well, but that was after we left and were forced to fail in our commitments by those in power in Congress at the time.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  66. VietEraVet, are you the same guy who commented here a few years ago under the screen name “psyberian” or something close? Black Jack was one of the guys who kicked your sorry rear end around back then.

    Ropelight (921f6e)

  67. re: #62

    I didn’t know there were any hippies still alive.

    Icy Truth (0b82c2)

  68. “the other America is the compassionate, kind and peaceloving America”

    Zeenath – Who is going to protect the above Americans from the real world, the world with terrorists, people who don’t like us because we are a rich country, because we talk funny, because we have different religions, etc., etc. Those people out there in the real world don’t seem to be placated by jawboning them to death. Do you have a very large unicorn ranch and rainbow farm you think might help or do you think we might need some militaristic types and spirit?

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  69. Actually, on the 7th Anniversary of 9/11 all Americans should sit down quietly and think … 9/11 is the closest you have been to a war

    Except for those of us who have actually been in a war …

    In my view there are 2 Americas … one that is jingoistic, militaristic and imperialistic (McCain/Palin) … and the other America is the compassionate, kind and peaceloving America (The One/Plagarist)

    JD (6a8c0a)

  70. #67, I’m still here, huckleberry.

    Ropelight (921f6e)

  71. only to discover that Bush is a god damned liar?

    Cite, please>

    And now you expect us to believe all these lies about Obama?

    What lies are you referring to?

    JD (6a8c0a)

  72. “I didn’t know there were any hippies still alive.”

    Icy – Can’t you smell them where you are?

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  73. #72, if they’re smokin’ pot or slathered in patuoli oil, you can smell ‘um 2 or 3 hundred yards upwind. Otherwise, they smell pretty much like billy goats, bag ladies, or hobos.

    Ropelight (921f6e)

  74. VietEraVet, the main liar in this thread is yourself. By the way, I attended the birthday party of our neighbor’s 11 year old daughter yesterday. He couldn’t be there, because he had volunteered to return to Iraq for a year as a civilian trainer after spending two tours there including the original operation.

    He seems to understand why he’s there even if you are too ignorant to understand.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  75. Actually, if Americans were not cocooned in their ignorance they would know more about what is REALLY happening in the world out there … they would look at their hands and know how much blood is on them … remember Lady Macbeth? she said all the scents of Araby wouldnt wash them clean … blood is blood …whether American, Jewish, Georgian or Russian … do not add to the rivers of blood flowing in the name of ‘Righteousness’ … Heal thyself, O Physician!

    Zeenath (29a7f5)

  76. Actually, if Americans were not cocooned in their ignorance

    If only we would just succumb to our moral betters … the enlightened ones.

    Arrogant, often?

    JD (6a8c0a)

  77. #68 if America reverts to the vision the Founding Fathers had for this great country there is a very real chance that they would not be attacked by anyone … think about it… pull out the Constitution of the United States of America and read it… it one of the greatest documents written by Man… and it is fast being subverted by Jingoism, Militarism and Imperialistic delusions of gradeur hatched by neocons…. Read about David and Goliath …in the long run, the most powerful do not always win… wining the hearts and minds without a gun behind your back is a much better way to live.

    Zeenath (29a7f5)

  78. JD, ever notice how much that the ones claiming that the American people are less informed than they are, turn out to be believers in conspiracy nonsense.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  79. there is more information that is real other than ‘conspiracy nonsense’… go to the beginings of each war and find out the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth …find out what the other side is saying with an open mind…there are always two sides to any argument …give the other side of the argument a chance to be heard if it is going to further peace and prosperity … jingoism is no answer to logic.

    Zeenath (29a7f5)

  80. Zeenath, and incoherence is no answer to anything.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  81. LOL… i guess logic is incoherent to some …not your fault at all!

    Zeenath (29a7f5)

  82. Zeenath, you don’t have any logic on display here. As for the beginnings of a war, go look up who said the following, and when:

    “It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy’s ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.”

    SPQR (26be8b)

  83. wining the hearts and minds without a gun behind your back is a much better way to live

    I think you meant “without a gun in your hands”. The problem is you don’t necessarily get a chance to win anything when the gun is in your back.

    If only we could get Putin and the Georgians to sign our Declaration of Independence and Constitution then we wouldn’t have to consider the possibility. Putin and the KGB would have to keep their word.

    I did read about David and Goliath. Goliath was a soldier of an army invading David’s homeland, David fought back with confidence that he was doing God’s will. Is that what you meant?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  84. And i guess you would know the verse where this says in the Holy Quran? … i have a copy and can look it up for u … there have been many ‘verses’ from the Holy Quran that have been nicely mutilated in order to ‘prove’ a fallacious argument.

    Zeenath (29a7f5)

  85. Zeenath, so you don’t recognize the quote? That’s what I thought. You don’t have any idea where the war began.

    Thanks for proving my point.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  86. No #85 i do not recogize the quote … me thinks you know more of what is in the Holy Quran than i do … which of course does not mean you know what it ACTUALLY says…:)

    Zeenath (29a7f5)

  87. Zeenath, Pricess Warrior of the Tards. All hail, Princess Tard!

    Dmac (e639cc)

  88. Zeenath, Princess Warrior of the Tards. All hail, Princess Tard!

    Dmac (e639cc)

  89. Double post – my bad.

    Dmac (e639cc)

  90. ROFL… #87 i thought we were having a discussion … where does invective enter into a discussion IF it is going to be based on logic and facts?
    it is true, when u have nothing to say to bolster your position then stoop to invective, abuse and plain bad manners… i guess you are a Republican!..:)

    Zeenath (29a7f5)

  91. Zeenath, the point is not what is or is not in the Koran. The point is that you pretend to have some deep thought about wars, but the reality is that you simply don’t.

    The quote is happens to be from the muslim ambassador to Britain from Tripoli. It was his answer to what motivated the Barbary pirates of Tripoli to attack American shipping when Americans had done nothing to them.

    In the 18th century, Zeenath.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  92. Pirates … and if the pirates are muslim then the Holy Quran insists on it and if the Pirates are Christian they r disowned?

    Zeenath (29a7f5)

  93. DRF comment #17 at 11:17am

    And on Down’s Syndrome, of course the people who have Down’s Syndrome deserve to live, but raising a Down’s child can be so harrowing and draining that it would be wrong to force anyone to do it.

    There are alternatives to eugenics. The Down Syndrome Association of Greater Cincinnati has

    over 200 families on the waiting list with completed homestudies waiting for children with Down syndrome.

    And who are these families?

    Most of the adoptive families registered with us have had some connection or experience with an individual with Down syndrome sometime in their life. They may be a birth parent themselves. They may have a sibling with Down syndrome. Their decision to adopt is directly related to a positive life experience.

    James (f204a1)

  94. Good night all … maybe I will continue this thread tomorrow, InshaAllah…:)

    Zeenath (29a7f5)

  95. That’s what I thought, Zeenath. You don’t get it. Which is funny since you claim that understanding of others is so important. But you don’t understand and evidently don’t bother to. You aren’t living up to your standards very well.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  96. Zeenath, Princess Warrior of the Tards. All hail, Princess Tard!

    Heck, I’ll throw it in a third time. Why not.

    /not a ‘murikan, but wasn’t that sometime during the Barbary Pirate days, when the Rompin’, Stompin’ Badass Marines got their first run at the shores of Tripoli, and a first draft of their Hymn?

    Gregory (f7735e)

  97. “68 if America reverts to the vision the Founding Fathers had for this great country there is a very real chance that they would not be attacked by anyone”

    Zeenath – We had the War of 1812 and the War with the Barbary Pirates early on in this nation’s history. Were either of those due to subversion of the Constitution?

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  98. The United States declared war on Britain on June 18, 1812 for a combination of reasons, including outrage at the impressment (conscription) of American sailors into the British navy, frustration at British restraints on neutral trade, and anger at alleged British military support for American Indians (as in the original inhabitants?) who were hostile to the United States (i wonder why!).
    As for Pirates …that is neither here nor there … Killers and Pillagers have no Religion …their ‘god’ is gold! when anyone thinks it is good to kill for gold (yellow or black) or for any other material goods in my humble opinion they do not follow any religion.

    zeenath (29a7f5)

  99. In my humble opinion wars should only be fought to PROTECT and DEFEND… this new fangled idea of ‘Preemptive’ wars is going to be a very dangerous precedent…. Russia has tried it with the Ukeraine .. but of course THAT is ‘bad’…;)

    zeenath (29a7f5)

  100. zeenath – Do you spell your name with a small “z” during the day and a capital “Z” at night or are you a different person? I’m looking for a conclusion from your 98 +99 as to whether those wars support your position, not avoidance and blather.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  101. daleyrocks – Conclusion? It has to form a coherent thought first. Being our moral better and all, we should hear it out.

    JD (6a8c0a)

  102. Zeenath,

    If this is you, you can say anything you want as far as I’m concerned.

    nk (d681ef)

  103. P.S. Some of the images may be spam links.

    nk (d681ef)


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