Patterico's Pontifications

9/4/2008

The Numbers Are In And They Are Stunning — Read’em And Weep Dems

Filed under: General — WLS @ 12:58 pm



Posted by WLS:

One question that crossed my mind repeatedly last night was “Well, how many people are really watching this?”

Obama’s convention speech — with weeks of build-up in the media which has gone on and on about Obama bringing new voters into the system — drew an amazing 38 million viewers.  Biden’s speech was seen by 24 million. 

To put that in perspective, here are some numbers from past elections:

Bush 2004 — 27.5 million

Kerry 2004 — 24.4 million

Hillary 2008 — 26 million

Fred Thompson — 21 million

So, what about Palin last night?

Drudge says 37 MILLION!!!!!  http:thrfeed.com

McCain’s pick certainly caught the nation’s attention, and the media drove the interest in her speech with their relentless attacks no her.  So America tuned in last night to see what she’s all about, and she absolutely crushed it. 

I can’t wait to see the polls tomorrow morning which will reflect polling from today.

h/t powerlineblog

114 Responses to “The Numbers Are In And They Are Stunning — Read’em And Weep Dems”

  1. But, but….
    We were told that only The One can generate large, enthusiastic crowds to receive the wisdom that he dispenses.
    It is obvious that those watching “that woman” last night were just clingy, clutchey, fools – probably have TV’s so old that the changer doesn’t even work anymore.

    Another Drew (67986d)

  2. If you really can’t wait, there is the poll posted at Media Curves:

    There is a positive change in how independents anticipate voting in the Presidential election after viewing Palin’s speech, with a 9% increase among independents indicating that they will probably or definitely vote for the McCain/Palin ticket after watching the speech.

    Palin’s speech proved to be equally effective in swaying votes for both men and women. Among the independents who watched her speech, respondents who report that they will “probably” or “definitely” vote for McCain increased by 10% across both genders, around 38% of female independents and 36% of their male counterparts…

    You can get to the full study at the link.

    Karl (f07e38)

  3. That’s a lot of people tuning in to watch an unqualified hillbilly hick baby dropping redneck guntoting mayor of podunk Alaska talk about why she should be Vice President instead of home minding the kids.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  4. Wow – that’s unbelievable. That’s just fantastic to see. True, Obama beat her in sheer numbers. But look at it this way: the day after Palin’s speech, all anybody’s talking about is Sarah Palin. The day after Obama’s speech, all anyone was talking about was… Sarah Palin!

    Simon Dodd (fb192d)

  5. Shhhh.
    Simon, don’t speak too loudly, we don’t want to wake up the sleepwalkers in the media.

    Next thing you know, they’ll all be saying this was some kind of Rovian mind-trick.

    Another Drew (67986d)

  6. Karl,

    Any idea as to why that survey overweighted females? The total n is 1,000 with a split of 638 F and 362 M. That’s way out of kilter and would tend to bias Independents significantly towards the lean Dem side. That would make the survey much more positive for McCain/Palin than the overall report indicates.

    Rick Ballard (0a8990)

  7. Has any VP candidate ever drawn that high of a rating?

    Apogee (366e8b)

  8. Rick – They’re smarter. Next question.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  9. How about this: Obama on 10 or 11 TV stations draws 38 million (3.8 per) while Palin draws 37 million on 6 TV stations (6.167 per)!!! Hot damn!
    Oh I just hope and pray that the dems will continue to be the dems that they are and I hope and pray the liberal fascist Media will continue to be who they are. They have no freakin idea how much they are helping the Elephant. You go dems, you go!!! McCain-Palin in a landslide I tell ya, a landslide!!!

    J. Raymond Wright (d83ab3)

  10. Anyone who gets honestly excited by a speech at a political convention (DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN, don’t even bother) is like a trained seal – clap the flippers, catch the fish… clap the flippers, catch the fish.

    They should call conventions “Tool-chests”.

    Leviticus (41975c)

  11. I’m holding back my tears.

    Do you really expect everyone who watched Palin’s speech to vote for McCain?

    I mean they might have if she had only explained to us how McCain plans to help America get back to where it was 10 years ago.

    As for the polls tomorrow, of course McCain will get a bounce.

    I’ll hold back my tears until and if McCain actually gets elected, and even then I’ll hope for the best for America.

    Oiram (983921)

  12. Levitucus — then the Dem party has 18 million trained seals because Obama’s entire campaign is built upon the foundation that he’s the best at reading from a teleprompter.

    WLS (26b1e5)

  13. Oh you dems, your so smart, and witty too! Gosh gee golly, when I grow up I want to be just like you….NOT! The only people crying on the evening of November 4, 2008 are going to be the fascist liberal media cohorts and all the nuts on the left. Bwahahaha Bwaahahaha….

    J. Raymond Wright (d83ab3)

  14. I’ve been looking around to see if Frank Luntz ran a focus group on the speech, but it looks like he didn’t. He did have one last week when she gave her first public statement after McCain selected her, and his group of undecideds were pretty much un-changed since they didn’t know anything about her.

    There is this little comment in a Dallas Morning News blog from him where he called her speech last night “perfect” and the best political speech he has ever heard at a convention.

    He may have conducted a focus group and he’s just holding out with the results so that his findings are not drowned out by all the other media noise today.

    WLS (26b1e5)

  15. The fact is the show gave those 37 million viewers a chance to make up their own minds about Palin without the BS media spin. Many I’ve talked to had no idea she was the governor of Alasaka, since day 1 the obamamot fellators have been talking about McCain choosing the MAYOR of a small town. Then we had all the speculation that her youngest was actually her daughter’s child and so on ad nauseum. The media should have shame except those bozos are beyond shame. Good to see that Chrissie “I squat to pee” Matthews intends to run for the US Senate. He’d pretty much fit in with the rest of those useless drones. And he did write speeches so many years ago for that shining light from Plains, Jimmu Carter.
    I thought Palin was about to dunped or even withdraw herself since she’s so obviously in over her head? Shit happens. Suppose uh, um, uh Baracky had a massive myocardial infarction, who would graduate to the top spot? Slow Joe who was the primary choice of few dems? Hillary?

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  16. McCain for VP !!!!!

    MOG (c949f7)

  17. Rick,

    Not sure about why the sample is so female, except that they may have been looking to study women’s reaction in particular — it would allow them to do more accurate split samples and such. I haven’t delved into the internals yet.

    Karl (f07e38)

  18. I can’t wait to see the polls tomorrow morning which will reflect polling from today.

    It’s just one poll, but the Friday CBS poll for some reason is already up on RCP, and it’s got the race back at a tie (after Obama leading by as much as 9 three days ago).

    realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html

    Phil (6d9f2f)

  19. McCain’s pick certainly caught the nation’s attention, and the media drove the interest in her speech with their relentless attacks no her. So America tuned in last night to see what she’s all about, and she absolutely crushed it.

    To plagiarize an awesome Patterico quote from another thread, “Thanks for helping, moron[s].” LOL

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  20. Leviticus #10 – I agree with you. Conventions rarely provoke thought, and usually contain nothing new.

    However, I am interested in Palin’s candidacy, and that primarily has to do with her record of fighting corruption, even in her own party. That is something new, AFAIC, and I do not think I’m alone in that interest, as her high numbers, both approval rating and viewers, would seem to attest.

    Hers is the only speech to which I paid attention. I would argue that she has had more negative attacks in the last week than most VP’s encounter in an entire election season. Promises for the future are one thing, but it was how she reacted to her detractors that made the speech worth watching.

    She has a record of action, and I looked to the speech to verify that capability. She did not disappoint.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  21. Chris Mathews is still apoplectic today. Rudy is still teeing off on Baracky.

    JD (5f0e11)

  22. Well well what have we here.. Sarah caught lying??!!!

    http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-earmarks3-2008sep03,0,2482434.story

    VietEraVet (543dfe)

  23. VEV – Sourcing one of your lies with the LA Slimes? Do you know what blog you are on?

    JD (5f0e11)

  24. #22 – Yes, by all means link to an LA Times article as proof of a well researched, factual, unbiased account of a Republican candidate.

    You’re not a regular at Patterico.com, are you?

    Apogee (366e8b)

  25. Leviticus wrote:

    Anyone who gets honestly excited by a speech at a political convention (DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN, don’t even bother) is like a trained seal – clap the flippers, catch the fish… clap the flippers, catch the fish.

    They should call conventions “Tool-chests”.

    RRRRRreeeeowwl! That’s just nasty. Take it down a notch, dude.

    You’re right that nobody should put too much faith in political speeches or even politics in general, but this is the Constitution’s method of selecting the person who will lead. At the least, it’s like the Olympics, where sports that we don’t care about for four years less two weeks grip our interest.

    If you’re acting like a political convention speech is nothing to get excited about whatsoever, I would like to know what does excite you (within reason).

    L.N. Smithee (d1de1b)

  26. JD – jinx.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  27. The horror! The horror!

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  28. One new poll that I just came across via Real Clear Politics: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/04/opinion/polls/main4416798.shtml

    Showing a 42% to 42% tie!!!

    Michael A (a435d3)

  29. This Just In/ FYI

    Evangelicals Give Sarah Palin a “Get Out of Values Free” Card
    While John McCain may be rethinking his lackadaisical decision to outsource the vetting of Sarah Palin to the more curious American press, I’ve really enjoyed watching all these surprising layers peel off of the panglossian pioneer we were introduced to only last week. Looking a bit like one of those stock and staid librarians in movies, the one who is only moments away from removing her glasses and liberating a thick, lustrous mane of hair with a seductive snap of the neck while stripper music trumpets on the surround-sound, Palin exudes a sense that she is always about to reveal something unexpected before our startled eyes. And the really fun part: I have a hunch she’ll only know what that something is moments before we do. But, of course, weeks before John McCain will.

    What I have enjoyed witnessing to a far lesser degree has been my fellow evangelical Republicans’ response to Palin’s energetic striptease of embarrassing information. It seems that the very idea of Dick Cheney’s office being redecorated with moose throws and baby seal pelt doilies by a ferociously ambitious MILF from Alaska has rendered a group of professional faultfinders and scolds mawkishly carefree, giddy in their eagerness to forgive. With a mix of opportunism and testosterone, habitual chiders like James Dobson are swooning over Palin, light-headedly jostling to anoint and absolve. The GOP’s rehabilitation of poor, maligned Murphy Brown has been a s blithe as it has been sudden.

    Yes, in many ways Sarah is our kind of gal. Her first priority when she began her contentious reign as the amusingly vindictive mayor of a small, snowy town? Try to ban books at the local library that contained the type of naughty words that so rudely besmirch the English language’s great literature! And, yes, Palin embraces the God of our President and Party, a God who is more likely to fritter away His day romantically daydreaming about a $30 billion gas pipeline than plucking a victim of one of His hurricanes out of a capsized canoe.

    But it is not this shared (and profitable) vision of a mercantile God that has evangelicals verbally petting Palin like a pack of Emo youths whose ecstasy has just kicked in. No, their ardor springs solely from a rather discrete source revealed rather indiscreetly: She’s fixated on bringing every embryo she comes near to term. And she has created an “abstinence only from condoms” family that recklessly makes it its mission to ensure that there will be plenty of them, wanted or, as in the case of the last two, not.

    Apparently, according to many of my fellow evangelicals, Palin could hold up a liquor store naked on a meth-binge just as long as she and her underage daughter keep pushing out the young’uns! According to Dobson, “The media are already trying to spin this as evidence Gov. Palin is a ‘hypocrite,’ but all it really means is that she and her family are human.”

    But perhaps the biggest hypocrite in this story is Dobson. Is he now casting the issues of unwed pregnancy and teenage sex as inconsequential trifles, to be carelessly thrown under John McCain’s Straight Jacket Express? After all, he has quickly scolded unwed mothers in the past, showing a far less happy-go-lucky, “stuff happens” insouciance to “values.” [And speaking of scolding unwed teenage mothers: What, exactly, is the holdup on setting a date, Bristol, dear? Is it a busy-as-bee caterer – or an election, after which the boyfriend who doesn’t want kids can go back to college?]

    Imagine the horror and tut-tutting if Barack Obama had a pregnant daughter (well, that and the probable interest by the New England Journal of Medicine). Do you think Dobson would fawn over the news – perhaps, encourage Miss Obama to have a few more? Probably not. Remember how he famously lit into Mary Cheney for having a child without being married to a man? Now, wait. Does that mean that this isn’t partisan pandering after all, just saying whatever claptrap is needed to get a Republican to pick some more wild-about-fetuses Supreme Court justices? Oh, how foolish! What was I thinking? Mary, while a Republican, is, moreover, a homo. And, in evangelical circles, being a homosexual is about the only thing as potent as being pro-fetus: The former condemns with the ease the latter absolves.

    So close to Jesus, I know which appliance Bristol will name her child after,

    Mrs. Betty Bowers

    America’s Best Christian”

    David Ehrenstein (961ad1)

  30. “VietEraVet”?, huh? Is that you, David Bonior?

    L.N. Smithee (d1de1b)

  31. #29 38 million watched Palin last night and your content with a tie Michael?

    If after tonight, McCain doesn’t get at least a 5 point lead bounce……….. you guys might be the ones weeping in November.

    Oiram (983921)

  32. All those MSM pundits living in bubbles who said the class warfare bit wouldn’t appeal beyond a fringe base last night – right, that’s exactly why so many people tuned in to watch.

    Thanks for helping morons!

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  33. VietEraVet seems to have his ‘Nam flashbacks on a regular basis here – “look out, it’s Charlie!”

    Dmac (874677)

  34. “then the Dem party has 18 million trained seals because Obama’s entire campaign is built upon the foundation that he’s the best at reading from a teleprompter.”

    – WLS

    Umm… yes. They do. Is that the extent of your rebuttal?

    “However, I am interested in Palin’s candidacy, and that primarily has to do with her record of fighting corruption, even in her own party. That is something new, AFAIC, and I do not think I’m alone in that interest, as her high numbers, both approval rating and viewers, would seem to attest.

    Hers is the only speech to which I paid attention. I would argue that she has had more negative attacks in the last week than most VP’s encounter in an entire election season. Promises for the future are one thing, but it was how she reacted to her detractors that made the speech worth watching.”

    – Apogee

    As far as your first paragraph goes: it seems to me that Palin and Obama are much more similar, as candidates, than anyone here seems willing to admit (and this has nothing to do with their shared lack of experience) – Obama went with the flow of Chicago politics to gain power, and Palin went against the flow of Alaska politics to gain power. Everyone’s so busy highlighting the first half of those sentences that they fail to notice the second, which is that both Obama and Palin seem (to me) solely interested in expanding their own personal power, regardless of the lengths they have to go to to do so. A philosophy of personal expansionism isn’t exactly a desirable trait in a president (again, in my opinion), particularly in light of the fact that presidential power, once acquired, rarely recedes.

    As far as your second paragraph goes, there are plenty of high school students who stoically absorb or valiantly deflect insults hurled at them by their catty peers: that doesn’t make them qualified to lead a country, regardless of how inspiring it may be.

    Leviticus (41975c)

  35. “…you guys might be the ones weeping in November.”

    Moiran seems to talk a lot about “crying” lately -I think another word for it is called “projection.”

    Dmac (874677)

  36. The CBS poll has them tied for Monday – Wednesday! Let’s see what it says from Thursday to Saturday!

    J. Raymond Wright (d83ab3)

  37. “…and Palin went against the flow of Alaska politics to gain power.”

    That’s an interesting bit of verbal ju jitsu, but you’re forgetting that she didn’t want to become involved in politics in the first place – and also that she could’ve easily slid into line and waited for an opening to become available when the old GOP guard there eventually retired (which was going to happen shortly). Is Palin ambitious? Sure, no question about it. But equating the different paths taken is much too simplistic, and take it from a resident of Chicago who’s watched Obama for many years now: he got into politics from the beginning not out of any altruistic purposes, but singularly to reach the pinnacles of power. I think Palin’s record of getting into office to actually help her constituents speaks for itself – the fact that she’s come so far so fast is a byproduct of those efforts, not the reason per se.

    Dmac (874677)

  38. Oiram – Do you even bother reading the polls cited? The time frames? I forgot. Polls that are good for Dems are definitive. Polls good for Republicans, or bad for Dems (like Congress), are to be ignored.

    JD (5f0e11)

  39. Mathews just did a Barking Moonbat on the Street segment, asking questions of the twatwaffles in the crowd. People, those are the ones that are cancelling out your vote. Funny, they all wanted to know what the Republicans will give them – healthcare, money, taxes, tuition, etc …

    JD (5f0e11)

  40. Leviticus – Obama went with the flow of Chicago politics to gain power, and Palin went against the flow of Alaska politics to gain power.

    I don’t see those as being equal. The result of Obama’s ‘flow’ is that his corrupt benefactors have gained power right along with him. This direction of action gives a green light to corruption, as the downside has been eliminated.

    Palin is the superior opposite of Obama, not his twin. Her actions have resulted in more transparency in Alaskan government, along with a warning to corrupt officials.

    Your scenario is self-defeating, as the only candidate for public office that would qualify is one that refused to run, as victory automatically grants greater power politically, which, by your logic, renders moot any actions taken by the candidate.

    You cannot possibly be equating corruption and the removal of corruption.

    As to your second statement:
    Why resort to a high school analogy? Are you attempting to equate a political candidate for national office to a high schooler faced with insults? High schoolers don’t affect national policy. Please try to refrain from such specious arguments.

    Palin was subjected to an enormous onslaught of attacks against her ability to lead. How she addressed those attacks relates directly to her leadership style, or lack thereof. After her speech, there is no doubt that she possesses strong leadership qualities. We elect leaders who act, not ‘experience’ or ‘hope’.

    Sarah Palin is dynamic, not static.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  41. JD, #39, We’ve had this discussion, of course I’m aware of congresses approval rating. I haven’t been polled but I would probably vote my dissatisfaction. Of course the pollsters would never want to hear reasons why I’m dissatisfied.

    JD, you really should read your comment and once again look in the political mirror.

    Oiram (983921)

  42. #36 “Moiran”? Looks like Dmac’s keyboard is broke or he/she doesn’t know how to spell.

    I would cry about that if I were you :)

    Oiram (983921)

  43. Coulda been worse – coulda called you I-ram-O. I don’t think Dmac should make fun of a stupid nic pick though. It should be left alone to speak for itself.

    Rick Ballard (0a8990)

  44. Leviticus and Oiram, you both make such thoughtful, non-partisan points. Thanks so much.

    b10621 (df882e)

  45. The 42-42 poll, from what I can tell, means that Obama has lost some voters, but they’ve moved into the “independant” category.

    Until today, Obama’s been running 45-50 percent, and McCain’s been running 40-45 for the past couple weeks.

    Now Obama’s at 42, and so is McCain.

    Maybe the voters who’ve jumped ship from Obama are waiting for McCain’s speech tonight.

    Phil (6d9f2f)

  46. Don’t be too hard on VietEraVet, please, as he’s good for entertainment.

    b10621 (df882e)

  47. Apogee…
    You shouldn’t through in concepts like “static” and “dynamic” in any conversation with a Liberal –
    they require thinking that is just beyond their comprehension.

    Another Drew (67986d)

  48. Rachel Madcow just tried to push the idea that Gov. Palin was a leader of a fringe secessionist party in Alaska.

    JD (5f0e11)

  49. “throw”, not “through”.
    Sorry.

    Another Drew (67986d)

  50. JD…
    That’s the same old discredited Alaskan Independence Party crap that we heard about the first of the week.
    Old story….Bad story!
    How bad is it that they have to recirculate stories that have already been discredited?
    Morons!

    Another Drew (67986d)

  51. Let Maddow go there — we’ll simply hang the Akaka bill around Obama’s neck. Hawaii Sen. Daniel Akaka told NPR that his bill might lead to a vote for independence by Hawaii in the future.

    WLS (26b1e5)

  52. As I watched Sarah Palin’s speak to crowds about “reform” and “Shaking up Washington”, I was wondering who are these people that are cheering? Weren’t these the same people that cheered George W. Bush and the Republican Congress (from 2000-2004)? And wasn’t Sarah Palin saying “I am going to Washington to clean up the mess that you and your candidates made!”?

    James (15329b)

  53. WLS,

    Did you notice? Palin’s speech was carried on 4 fewer networks than Obama’s.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  54. Static and dynamic? Dems heads assplode when those terms come up in re. taxes.

    JD (5f0e11)

  55. JD, you have a truly unique way with words.

    Bigot!

    Another Drew (67986d)

  56. Olberasshat absolutely refuses to acknowledge that Gov. Palin is anything other than a small town mayor. He is a cock.

    JD (5f0e11)

  57. Now, JD. That would imply that he actually can be erect.

    Another Drew (67986d)

  58. AD – How so?

    JD (5f0e11)

  59. #45 Why thank you b10621, but lets give credit where credit is due, everyone gives non-partisan points at Particco right? Anyone? Hello? Anyone? I hear crickets? They must be in my elitist head.

    Oiram (983921)

  60. Leviticus wrote:

    Palin and Obama are much more similar, as candidates, than anyone here seems willing to admit (and this has nothing to do with their shared lack of experience) – Obama went with the flow of Chicago politics to gain power, and Palin went against the flow of Alaska politics to gain power.

    You’re losing me, Lev — are you suggesting that swimming against the stream is just as impressive as drifting with it? Come on, you’re smarter than that.

    L.N. Smithee (a0b21b)

  61. I think that calling him a cock gives him too much credit.
    He is still a spot of primordial ooze that has coagulated before our eyes.
    I wonder if they steam-clean that studio after he leaves.

    Another Drew (67986d)

  62. JD wrote: Rachel Madcow just tried to push the idea that Gov. Palin was a leader of a fringe secessionist party in Alaska.

    From the New York Times (!), September 2:

    On Tuesday, though, the [Alaskan Independence P]arty’s chairwoman, Lynette Clark, said the earlier statement was false. Ms. Clark said that she had based it on information another party member had given her, but that a review of the records showed only that Ms. Palin had attended the 1994 conference.

    Ms. Clark added that while the review confirmed Todd Palin as a member, it did not indicate that Ms. Palin had been one.

    On Wednesday, Ms. Clark released a corrected statement, saying, in part, “I, foolishly, repeated and accepted as fact what an officer of this membership shared with myself, and husband Dexter Clark, over a year ago.”

    “I humbly apologize to Governor Palin, and to both national and local press and media,” she added.

    Of course, if Maddow wants to continue to “go there,” and suggest that Todd’s politics are hers, I say bring it on — it will put Michelle O. in play.

    L.N. Smithee (a0b21b)

  63. No, L.N., picking on Todd is OK, ’cause he’s a guy.
    But, you can never pick on the girl (even when she is a loon).

    Another Drew (67986d)

  64. Folks – Watching MSNBC is really educational. Remarkable even. They know very little about the other side of the aisle, and have no qualms about proving it. Olberliar started off the show with a quote from Mencken implying that Republicans can only gain power by ginning up fear. Mathews still thinks the media is fair. Madcow makes shit up. Buchanon is supposed to speak for … someone. Robinson – Oiram is less predictable.

    JD (5f0e11)

  65. “she didn’t want to become involved in politics in the first place”

    – Dmac

    If you believe that, I’ve got a Bridge to Nowhere to sell you.

    No one becomes involved in politics who doesn’t want to.

    “Your scenario is self-defeating, as the only candidate for public office that would qualify [as politically desirable] is one that refused to run, as victory automatically grants greater power politically, which, by your logic, renders moot any actions taken by the candidate.”

    – Apogee

    No, the only candidate that would qualify as politically desirable is one that ran for reasons other than the accretion of personal power… which I don’t think includes Palin (or Obama, or McCain, or Biden, or Martin Heinreich – the guy running for the NM District 1 House seat – or Michael Cadigan, one of our local state senators… you get my point). That may be a pie in the sky ideal, but we’re just shooting the breeze, so what the hell, right?

    “You shouldn’t through in concepts like “static” and “dynamic” in any conversation with a Liberal –
    they require thinking that is just beyond their comprehension.”

    – Another Drew

    I could point out how difficult it would be for any intelligent person to comprehend the meaning of that last sentence… or I could just tell you how happy I am that you misspelled a word in a comment accusing others of stupidity.

    Cue whining about “spellchecking”.

    Leviticus (41975c)

  66. #65 Hey JD! Come on! I resemble that remark!

    Oiram (983921)

  67. (It’s easy to predict truth) 😉

    Oiram (983921)

  68. “You’re losing me, Lev — are you suggesting that swimming against the stream is just as impressive as drifting with it? Come on, you’re smarter than that.”

    – L.N. Smithee

    No, I’m not.

    Palin’s course is (of course) the more honorable of the two (Leviticus sighs dejectedly). What I am saying is that the more important thing here is Palin/Obama’s shared motivation in choosing their respective courses. I am, at heart, an idealist, and I’m trying to point out that neither candidate is ideal, in my eyes, because they are motivated by the accretion of power.

    …Which isn’t a position conducive to “dynamism” (as Apogee might say), but it’s still the question I’m interested in parsing.

    You know me; you know I harbor no special love for Obama, and that I’m not trying to give him a freebie on this whole thing. But I am interested in discussing the importance of a politician’s motivation in doing whatever it is that they do at any given point in time.

    Leviticus (41975c)

  69. Yes I watched the speech so I guess you can count me as one of the millions. Its kind of like watching a horrible automobile accident. Doesnt mean you like what you see but the curiosity factor of seeing tragedy in motion is just overwhelming.

    VietEraVet (543dfe)

  70. #69 –

    I am, at heart, an idealist, and I’m trying to point out that neither candidate is ideal, in my eyes

    — Try being a realist; you won’t find perfection that way, but you’ll sleep a lot better at night.

    Icy Truth (8d362f)

  71. Its kind of like watching a horrible automobile accident. Doesnt mean you like what you see but the curiosity factor of seeing tragedy in motion is just overwhelming.

    Ah, you must mean the portrait the Left painted of Palin.

    Paul (ac3cf3)

  72. THIS JUST IN: People get into politics to exercise power.

    (When hasn’t this been true?)

    Karl (1b4668)

  73. I am, at heart, an idealist, and I’m trying to point out that neither candidate is ideal, in my eyes, because they are motivated by the accretion of power.

    Really? Palin gave up a position of definite power in exchange for the potential of power, in protest over corruption and aiming to end it. She could have “gone along, got along” like Obama always has, but instead took the difficult route.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  74. Ya know, I’m more than a little sick of the cut-and-paste wall of text crap like Ehrenstein’s dropping. Patterico allows you to link to other sites; instead of making him host it, why not summarize the article in your own words and link to it?

    Or, better yet, when it’s crap like that, just keep it to yourself.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  75. Leviticus wrote: I’m trying to point out that neither candidate is ideal, in my eyes, because they are motivated by the accretion of power.

    It is my belief that every politician must enter into a de facto Faustian pact because of the very nature of politics. Nobody who doesn’t have a huge ego goes into the business, and nobody who isn’t ready to shade the truth to varying degrees understands the job.

    Still, I’m struggling to understand what you’re getting at. Which leaders were NOT motivated by acquiring power? No matter how humble they are or pretend to be, every politician (especially when seeking a Governorship or Washington offices) must, in the end, say something akin to “Make ME your leader!” Once they are, they have to say, “DO as I SAY!” How can you do that without a massive ego (which is rarely deserved) and a hunger for power?

    L.N. Smithee (a0b21b)

  76. “alin’s course is (of course) the more honorable of the two.”

    That was not your original implication, despite your attempt to extrapolate further – you implied that both candidates were only in it for pure power, period – and that it mattered little what paths they took to get there.

    If you want to continue going with this “a pox on both of their houses” meme, be my guest. It’s as old as the hills, but keep trying to put a fresh coat of paint on it.

    Dmac (874677)

  77. I know several political office holders who ran for office primarily to deny the office (and power) to others; they mostly have been quietly re-elected several times, and mostly without opponents. What many people want from the government is for the government to leave them alone. Mayors and such. Higher office, I’ll agree there usually is a more of a desire for power.

    htom (412a17)

  78. VietEraVet wrote: Yes I watched the speech so I guess you can count me as one of the millions. Its kind of like watching a horrible automobile accident. Doesnt mean you like what you see but the curiosity factor of seeing tragedy in motion is just overwhelming.

    Uh huh. You say that now.

    I am convinced (as Barack Obama likes to say) that you tuned in hoping she would be trembling, pale, flummoxed, and confused, finally dissolving in a pool of tears before millions.

    “I’d love to be the one to disappoint you when I don’t fall down.” — “Re-Arranged,” Limp Bizkit (Yeah, it’s not Shakespeare, but it fits.)

    L.N. Smithee (a0b21b)

  79. #66
    I know you just want to rattle my chain, but you might look at #50. Spellcheck doesn’t work on this blog with my browser; or, at least I don’t know how to use it. Therefore, I sometimes have to repost a correction.
    If you can’t comprehend what that sentence means, I now understand how you qualified for an internship with a Dem Congressman.

    #69…”No, I’m not”
    Honesty, at last!

    Another Drew (67986d)

  80. Hey, Dave E. – If what you really want is to further stereotypes of homosexuals as Christophobic hedonists, keep on posting that Betty Bowers schtuff.

    L.N. Smithee (a0b21b)

  81. If you don’t feed the Troll, he will eventually go away. The Troll only lives for attention, whether it be of a negative or positive kind. In this case, The Troll only wishes negative attention – but what The Troll truly fears is to receive no attention at all.

    Dmac (874677)

  82. Comment by David Ehrenstein — 9/4/2008 @ 2:32 pm

    Wow – a disparaging (and, I’m sure, completely fact checked) e-mail!

    Now you guys are bringing out the really big guns.

    Anon (03ab2e)

  83. Speaking of bitter people clinging to something, anyway….

    Eric Blair (2708f4)

  84. “If you can’t comprehend what that sentence means, I now understand how you qualified for an internship with a Dem Congressman.”

    – Another Drew

    I mean, I could probably deduce what you were trying to say, but come on: I shouldn’t have to make like a shaman and read the entrails. People invented language to convey precise meaning, not vague generalities – they could already grunt and point.

    And I’m actually interning with a Republican Congressman, not that your point wasn’t stupid from the get-go.

    As far as the grow-up talk goes:

    A Pox on Both Their Houses!

    Leviticus (41975c)

  85. Alls I knows is that WLS’ ratings news is so good, it could inspire a Rodgers and Hammerstein Musical…

    How about The Hills are Alive with the Sound of Liberals Shitting their Pants, featuring the Von Crapp (aka MSNBC) family?

    qdpsteve (dc65ab)

  86. Leviticus wrote: And I’m actually interning with a Republican Congressman

    Given your idealism, may I ask why??

    L.N. Smithee (a0b21b)

  87. Its kind of like watching a horrible automobile accident.

    Yes… Your posts are…

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  88. Speaking of bitter people clinging to something, anyway…

    Eric, that’s not a gun David E. is clinging to… :-)

    qdpsteve (dc65ab)

  89. Leviticus…
    To reprise…
    “You shouldn’t through throw in concepts like “static” and “dynamic” in any conversation with a Liberal –
    they require thinking that is just beyond their comprehension.”

    Static and dynamic have been thrown about in several discussions over the last few day – some by me. It (dynamic) is an economic concept in budgeting that is ignored, for the most part, by Left economists – particularly in DC. (When you get back there, ask your Cong. about what happens when you score the budget in each manner)They require thinking”, refers to the two concepts of scoring, and that the comprehension of the concepts is beyond the pre-school mentality of your average Liberal (extreme snark very intended).
    Are we clear?

    Another Drew (67986d)

  90. Actually, qdp…

    “THis is my rifle, this is my gun.
    This is for fighting, this is for fun.”

    Another Drew (67986d)

  91. #88 – qdpsteve

    Eric, that’s not a gun David E. is clinging to…

    — Andrew Sullivan is clinging to the same thing.

    Well, not the exact same thing . . . at least I don’t think so.

    Do they know each other?

    Icy Truth (8d362f)

  92. Palin moves independents and moderates, according to Survey USA.

    Karl (1b4668)

  93. In case you are wondering, or have forgotten, you are all racist sexist homophobes.

    JD (5f0e11)

  94. Looks like Obama will be writing his third book pretty soon – How I Lost a Sure Thing. (Foreword by Hillary Clinton)

    Perfect Sense (9d1b08)

  95. Did Biden really say that they could possibly bring criminal charges against Bush and Cheney?!?!?!?!

    JD (5f0e11)

  96. I think Olber”I am not an honest”man took some Valium over the last commercial break.

    JD (5f0e11)

  97. Do they know each other?

    This link makes me wonder…

    Is Andrew Sullivan from Kansas?

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  98. In case you are wondering, or have forgotten, you are all racist sexist homophobes.

    JD,
    I did not enjoy at all the video of Sullivan kneading his buttocks. Is that racist?

    Patricia (ee5c9d)

  99. What I find amusing about our Obama cult trolls is that their crude, ham fisted, sexist attacks on Sarah Palin are backfiring.

    People like our trolls are probably each responsible for a handful of people moving from the Obama column to undecided, or undecided to McCain/Palin.

    Ehrenstein’s vitriol is probably good for tens of thousands of women moving to McCain out of disgust.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  100. That just makes you sane, Patricia. But prolly a homophobe.

    JD (5f0e11)

  101. #94 – Perfect Sense

    Looks like Obama will be writing his third book pretty soon – How I Lost a Sure Thing. (Foreword by Hillary Clinton)

    Hillary will be writing her second book, titled: “I warned you, but did you listen to me? Oh, no, you knew it all, didn’t you? Oh, it’s just a harmless little bunny, isn’t it? Well, it’s always the same. I always tell them–“

    Icy Truth (8d362f)

  102. Yup, SPQR, it is amusing to watch the Left go down in flames.

    Paul (ac3cf3)

  103. Yawn .. Obama did 38 million and Palin is the biggest news story going right now

    Ride the bump, cons. It’s gonna hurt when you crash

    yawner (f4c1e0)

  104. “Given your idealism, may I ask why??”

    – L.N. Smithee

    I had no choice in the matter, though I’m interested in interacting with members of the opposition party on a regular basis.

    Besides, it’s not like there aren’t idealists of all ideological stripes.

    Leviticus (41975c)

  105. yawner, Palin did 37 million with a stalled convention as lead in. And she’s only the VP nominee.

    Another example where comparison between Palin and Obama rather than Biden hurts Obama.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  106. . . . Says the one whose side has lost a wing, had an engine catch fire, and is spiraling in with no parachutes to save anyone.

    Icy Truth (8d362f)

  107. #107 was in reaction to #104

    Icy Truth (8d362f)

  108. Leviticus – My point was that you have the process of determination backwards in relation to identifying the ‘honest’ politician.

    In order for a politician to be an office holder, they must run for office and win (otherwise they’re not an elected official, and thus cannot affect policy directly).

    Restating it, by using the accretion of power as a measurement of intent regarding the politician seeking office, you are disqualifying anyone who qualifies, as the necessary electoral victory automatically accrues power for the winner, which you then use to discern the intentions of the politician. It is a feedback loop that will frustrate you in what is actually an honorable quest.

    Which brings us back to the original discussion. I am interested in Palin’s campaign because she has done the things that I wish to see our politicians attempting, and that is an increase in transparency and a decrease in wasteful spending. The best method of determining a politician’s intent is watch what they do.

    Good luck in your internship. Please, please don’t forget to comment about your experiences (preferably while they’re happening), as I expect everyone here would be interested in your thoughts regarding the slaughterhouse.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  109. Leviticus – From what I can see I’m not sure I would attribute the same motivations to Obama and Palin as you so willing to do. Obama’s willingness to play in, profit from and return favors in the corrupt morass of Chicago politics to demonstrate he is a politician without principles and out purely for himself – power for power’s sake. Given ample opportunities to fight corruption or to say no to Machine Politics, so far he has always taken the low road and not bucked the system. Those are things the national media does not want to investigate too deeply for fear of what they will find.

    So far, all that has come out about Palin is a series of rapidly debunked smears on the internet, stories started by political enemies, and a lot of meaningless drivel.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  110. Leviticus wrote:

    I had no choice in the matter, though I’m interested in interacting with members of the opposition party on a regular basis.

    “No choice in the matter?” When did interns become conscripted?!

    L.N. Smithee (d65088)

  111. So I shouldn’t apply for an internship for fear that I may be assigned to (*gasp*) a Republican? It’s not like there’s any difference between the two parties, anyway…

    And besides, my intention in taking an internship in the first place was to observe the whole process up close, and see whether or not it lives up to its abyssmal reputation. Much of my schoolwork this semester is more journalism than poli sci.

    Is curiosity an exclusively realist tendency?

    Leviticus (41975c)

  112. You’re on the right track, Leviticus. My internship was with the Cook County State’s Attorney’s Office. My first paid “law” job was with the Chicago Crime Commission. Neither kept me from doing criminal defense. In fact, it helped me respect the “people on the other side” and everyone else in the system.

    You just remember that it’s not about you. You do the job you were “hired” to do. Keep your ears and eyes open. You’re there to learn, not to teach.

    nk (21731d)

  113. mine is not a comment and I apologise, but I read the following:

    “#45 Why thank you b10621, but lets give credit where credit is due, everyone gives non-partisan points at Particco right? Anyone? Hello? Anyone? I hear crickets? They must be in my elitist head.
    Comment by Oiram — 9/4/2008 @ 4:12 pm

    and I would be gratefull to “Oiram” or to any other who could explain who is the Particco he mention.
    Since long time I’m searching people with my rare family name. Sincerely.

    enzo particco (8967a9)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.5671 secs.