Patterico's Pontifications


“A significant number of Senator Clinton’s fund-raisers remain … unwilling to work for Obama, a nettlesome problem that appears to be contributing to the campaign’s failure to keep pace with fund-raising goals it set for the general election.” WLS?? No, NYT.

Filed under: 2008 Election — WLS @ 2:18 am

[Posted by WLS]

I have written three posts that questioned whether the fundraising totals announced by the Obama campaign, records though they might well be, nevertheless fell short of what the Obama campaign itself planned on raising, and how a shortfall against their expectations would impact their campaign strategy.

Well, along comes the NYT yesterday and validates my very thesis. Among the quotes from the piece are the following:

When Mr. Obama decided in June to bypass the $84 million in public financing for the general election, campaign officials calculated that to make it worth the additional time he would need to devote off the campaign trail to fund-raising, they needed to raise two to three times the $84 million.

They set out a goal of raising $300 million for the campaign and $180 million for the Democratic Party, several fund-raisers said, or about $100 million a month.

The targets hewed closely with what Obama advisers also cited in interviews as their anticipated budget for the general election, but a spokesman for the campaign insisted on Tuesday that its fund-raising was on target and denied that $100 million a month was ever a real goal, or that the campaign was having problems recruiting Clinton donors.

In July, Mr. Obama and the Democratic National Committee took in about $77 million. That swamped the $53 million Mr. McCain and the Republican National Committee collected. But it was for a second straight month significantly off the pace Obama officials had set.

In June, when Mrs. Clinton suspended her campaign, Clinton and Obama officials estimated they might be able to collect $50 million to $75 million or more from Clinton donors. They appear to be nowhere near that.

Indeed, a New York Times analysis of Federal Election Committee records found that Clinton donors contributed roughly $2 million to the Obama campaign in July, similar to what they gave in June. The amount is not insubstantial, but it appears to fall short of targets originally envisioned by Obama fund-raisers.

I said that to meet the fundraising goals that the Obama campaign announced or itself, Obama alone needed to raise about $65 million a month. Every month he fell short meant the months to follow had to be even higher.

We know that Obama has a paid campaign staff roughly 4x bigger than the Bush re-election staff in 2004, and that his burn rate in July was $2 million a day. We also know that Obama canceled paid advertising in 7 GOP states that his campaign claimed it was going to compete in.

I don’t see anything at the convention that will lead big money Clinton donors to be any more generous than they have. Obama is going to have to settle for having less cash, or he’s going to have to spend more time than planned on fundraising in Sept. and October.

And, I’ll make the same point I’ve made before — in 10 days John McCain is going to have a campaign warchest of about $175 million. Obama will have around $100 million — maybe less.

With that kind of funding advantage, McCain is going to be much better situated to dominate paid media in the opening weeks of the campaign, which will give him an opportunity to establish the narrative of the campaign.

64 Responses to ““A significant number of Senator Clinton’s fund-raisers remain … unwilling to work for Obama, a nettlesome problem that appears to be contributing to the campaign’s failure to keep pace with fund-raising goals it set for the general election.” WLS?? No, NYT.”

  1. Congratulations, and thanks for keeping Patterico readers ahead of the curve.

    Bradley J. Fikes (0ea407)

  2. Great analysis.

    If McCain selects Romney today, his money worries are over. It will pour in.

    Corky Boyd (af3d74)

  3. As if on cue, now Obama’s people are trying to pressure the local Trib radio outlet here into cancelling a Stanley Kurtz interview this evening:

    I hate to use a silly urban slang phrase, but they really are acting like whiny little b-tches these days. Time to grow a farkin’ pair, and start acting like adults who are campaigning for the highest elected office in the land, and not Alderman of the 43rd Ward.

    Dmac (874677)

  4. Dmac – Baracky’s campaign was invited to appear along with Kurtz, and they declined, repeatedly.

    JD (75f5c3)

  5. They will soon come around wls. Don’t worry. I appreciate your concern.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  6. As usual, JD, they attack the messenger but not the message – because there’s nothing that Kurtz has written or said that’s factually incorrect.
    “Facts are stubborn things” – John Adams.

    Dmac (874677)

  7. The Obama campaign’s responses to criticism, trying to have the 527 group prosecuted for running an Ayres ad, trying to harass the WGN producers into canceling the Kurtz appearance, are an indication of their respect for free speech. It is the left, not the right, that always goes to the authoritarian approach. It’s because they know they are right and their opponents are evil.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  8. Coffee & the morning news . . . you d’ best.

    Vermont Neighbor (a066ed)

  9. Don’t fret WLS, the convention is still not over with. The Balloons are still inflated, and the confetti is still dry.

    I think you know the NYT makes mistakes from time to time right? Don’t have to remind you of all people of that :)

    Get back to this issue in a week and see if the Clinton Donors don’t come around.

    Again take a breath you’ll be all right. 😉

    Oiram (983921)

  10. Patrick, when you say “and that his burn rate in July was $ 2 million a month” do you mean “$2 million a day”?

    Les Jones (7abd88)

  11. When you hear the wind in the trees, you know the storm isn’t far away.

    Hesitant contributors are harbingers of reluctant voters.

    “You don’t need a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows.”

    Ropelight (4a83c9)

  12. Again take a breath you’ll be all right.

    — What the hell are you talking about? We are not worried at all.

    Icy Truth (7d05ae)

  13. #12 ICY said “What the hell are you talking about? We are not worried at all.”

    Of course you have nothing to worry about ICY, if you make a middle class income your taxes will be cut if Obama is elected. If you make a lot of money and are taxed, at least you know the middle class will continue to be able to afford what ever it is you make your riches on.

    Right wing talking points damage control to follow this comment.

    Is it the red kool aid or blue kool aid you like best? I’m guessing the red flavor, whatever the hell that one is.

    Oiram (983921)

  14. Oiram when I read your stuff, I’m reminded of a favorite bumper sticker of some folks back in the 2004 campaign <Somewhere in Texas a village is missing its idiot.>

    What state did you come from?

    Mike Myers (31af82)

  15. You scooped them, congrats.

    Money is smart: these guys know Obama’s on the downswing.

    Patricia (f56a97)

  16. Oiram still does not understand that, to the Dem policy makers, anyone with a job is “rich”, therefore a target for increased taxes.

    The New Left: Still looks like the old Left – Marxist Thugs All!

    Another Drew (0e4f52)

  17. OhEyeRam –

    — How is it that when you make an on-topic (I thought) comment about “us” not getting so worked up about possible tension in the Dem camp, and I then respond by pointing out that it doesn’t worry us at all (which it doesn’t; we just think it’s funny) . . . you take that as a signal to launch into talking points about how the world will be better under the Messiah’s reign?

    Loosen the strap on that propeller-beanie and talk about fundraising, will ya?

    Icy Truth (7d05ae)

  18. Oiram, here’s the dilema with your post 13….

    My wife and I are both school teachers in Louisiana, my 29th year, her 16th…our combined incomes are just under $110K a year, which puts us into the top 10% of wage earning families in America. I’m paying about 24% of my gross income in Federal taxes, another 6% in state taxes, and 9% in sales taxes on what’s left. My daughter, who is 24 this month comes off my taxes this year, and she is still in college, on my dime, so my taxes will go up this year, my tax man tells me, about 10% across the board. So, I’ll be somewhere in a 40-45% of my gross income tax bracket….

    But, your post talks about the RICH, and according to Democrat tax plans, I’m in the “RICH” bracket, and I’m in the group that pays taxes. The top 10% of all wage earning families pay 78% of all personal income taxes in America. Democrat tax plans in the past 40 years (yes, it has to be Democrat plans, because Bush cut taxes, and you think that is wrong) has created a situation where nearly half of all wage earners don’t pay taxes, so, we are nearing a point where those who don’t pay will outnumber those who do.

    And, I guess you think that this is a good thing, because I’m a rich school teacher….

    Sorry I’m rambling, but, your post has angered me greatly….a HUGE portion of taxpayers in America are not rich, and your party will continue to hammer them, with no concept of how that will destroy the economy, and the will to succeed….

    reff (959425)

  19. Good points, reff.
    Points that most of the Kool-Aide drinkers will never be able to comprehend.
    BTW, you could move to TX and save that 6% State Income Tax, plus a significant chunk of the Sales Tax.
    Who knows, you could find a teaching job with a district that has its’ own oil wells,
    with good salary levels,
    to make up for the loss of seniority.
    But then, Bobbie might just be able to get LA running on the straight and level, and get Baton Rouge to need less of its’ citizens’ hide.

    Another Drew (0e4f52)

  20. “If you make a lot of money and are taxed, at least you know the middle class will continue to be able to afford what ever it is you make your riches on.”

    “…and when I took math in 2nd grade, I learned that you divide the denominator by the numerator, and then doubled it to whatever number you were supposed to come up with!” Man, these remedial type of non – responses are getting quite tiresome…and a little Trollish.

    Dmac (874677)

  21. Oiram,
    Bill Clinton made the exact same promise in 1992–and then found, lo and behold, it just wasn’t possible to give us a tax break because of the “mess” Bush I left him.

    My Republican CPA just laughed at me when I came in to get my taxes done and said, give me those tax breaks!

    Patricia (f56a97)

  22. We pay a shitload in taxes every year. A freaking boatload. We joke that we buy our county a new F150 every single year.

    JD (75f5c3)

  23. #18, Great question Reff, your taxes will not go up, don’t let the Republican talking points lead you to believe otherwise.

    However based on your $100,000 plus tax bracket, they probably will not go down either.

    You will however have the benefit of knowing that people who make more than $250,000 will start to pay there fair share.

    What can be done with this extra money? You don’t sell anything but you and your wife are both school teachers.

    If you are good teachers……
    Come bonus time, there will be more money for you and your wife to receive.

    Conservatives, what do you think Ref and his wife will do with their bonus money from higher taxes to the rich?

    Very good chance they and people who will benefit from Obama’s tax cuts will be able to better afford the goods that you became rich on.

    Oiram (983921)

  24. Excellent post and series, WLS. Thanks to you, we knew this weeks ago.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  25. Another Drew…

    My daughter wants to teach and write, and she took the time to look at exactly that, that her starting salary in TX would be almost what her mother makes here….a bit higher cost of living, but, still more total income…and she too considered the tax rates, and knows that she will make more than her mother in her first year….

    Big BIG Bobby fan, ever since his work on Medicare in both the Fed and State gov’t. As well, he is out front on Gustavo, showing how much more prepared he will be than others in the past (he was at least smart enough to pay attention, which is more than the DEMOCRAT Blanco and the RINO before her)….

    And, the wife and I are seriously considering a move to the great state of TEXAS in a few, when retirements hit….as long as we can still find good crawfish!!!!!!!!!

    reff (959425)

  26. Oiram…you skipped a point, about what happens when more people don’t pay than pay…

    My taxes have gone up every year, making that part of your point moot….

    There is NO BONUS MONEY, either in merit pay, which your DEMOCRAT PARTY rejects, or in more take-home income, which won’t happen because my taxes will rise….You need to go back and read Obama’s tax policies again….under his plan, I AM RICH!

    I don’t “sell” anything except that we are teachers??? What does that mean??? No, I don’t sell things, because I spend my 7 1/2 hours at school, then go home and do another couple on work, then I actually try to enjoy my time….

    As for the fair share that the $250K will pay, they are alread paying over half of the total personal income taxes for the entire nation….

    So, please, answer this one for us: What is the percentage of a “fair share” that should be paid…

    BY ALL WAGE EARNERS, not just those at the top???

    reff (959425)

  27. #17, ICY, I apologize for being off topic. But look at the discussion it created.

    It’s hard to be on topic when the topic is based on “If’s” and “maybe’s”

    But I will continue to try.

    Oiram (983921)

  28. 23, Oiram, you lie. Obama wants to end all the tax cuts that Bush got enacted. From the increased dependent credit to the elimination of Capital Gains, you Donkeys want to tax everything to KEEP PEOPLE POOR!

    PCD (5c49b0)

  29. #26 $250,000 is Obama’s rich point.

    Your letting the Republican talking point get to you.

    This is one of the reasons Obama has his work cut out for him between now and November.

    Now, if a Republican wants to address the rich raising prices due to higher taxes than that is at least something that could be discussed.

    But when they try to tell you that everyone’s taxes will go up, it’s a load of baloney.

    Note: Here come the Right wing talking points again. :(

    Oiram (983921)

  30. #18, Great question Reff, your taxes will not go up, don’t let the Republican talking points lead you to believe otherwise.

    However based on your $100,000 plus tax bracket, they probably will not go down either.

    Well, it depends on how much that “plus” is…

    Very good chance they and people who will benefit from Obama’s tax cuts will be able to better afford the goods that you became rich on.

    The range were people BENEFIT does not exist. At best it stays the same for pretty small ranges.

    And I dunno if you knew, but Dems blocked merit pay for teachers. They get salary, and that’s it. There is no such thing as bonuses.

    Scott Jacobs (2899a7)

  31. Oiram avoided the question:

    What is the percentage of a fair share for all wage earners???

    No talking point, just a question.

    But, you’ll avoid it again. You brought up the rich paying a fair share, and ignore what a fair share should be.

    I answer that they are already paying a fair share, starting with the 35+% of their income, to the aggregate “half of all personal income taxes paid” and you can’t even tell me what a fair share for everyone should be….

    Keep trying…you might make it….

    reff (959425)

  32. Oiram also avoided the facts in my posts about my pay and bonuses….

    Facts get in the way of some belief….

    reff (959425)

  33. #32, Reff, I’m not an accountant but I can see tha your combined $110,000 salary is less than $250,000. Your taxes will not go up.

    Oiram (983921)

  34. Ever notice how much Lefties say they love equality: one man one vote, equal opportunity, equal pay for equal work, equal access, etc.

    Yep, Lefties are all for equality, except when it comes to picking up the tab. They’ll stiff Uncle Sam every time they get the chance. Pay their fair share? No thanks, let someone else pony up.

    Stick it to the rich guys, let them pay, and pay, and pay. You know, from each according to his ability…

    Keep making those dirty rich rats pay up till they can’s pay anymore. Get everyone down in the hole Lefties are in. That’s the idea, vote Obama, save Bill Ayres. (He’s exempt from taxes, as well as from the law.)

    Ropelight (4a83c9)

  35. Oiram continually demonstrates that he is an ignorant, left-wing tool, and not to be taken seriously.
    But, if someone would take him away, perhaps he might get an adjoining padded room to Leviticus, or share one with JOHN!

    Another Drew (0e4f52)

  36. Fair share should be the percentage we are all paying. Coorporations are paying a smaller percentage than the middle class. Percentage of net earnings.

    Please don’t remind me that the rich are paying 95% of the total taxes, it insults my intelligence when you guys do that.

    Just look at our deficit, weakened dollar, foreclosures, gas prices, and jobless rate for this year and tell me with a straight face Bush’s tax cuts are working.

    Any of you.

    Oiram (983921)

  37. The rich pay 95% of total taxes.

    Ropelight (4a83c9)

  38. I think the solution is to tax the holy hell out of the actual taxpayers and those greedy money-grubbing corporations who are oppressing people daily.

    JD (75f5c3)

  39. Oiram,

    You insult our intelligence. Obama raises taxes and says he will do so.

    PCD (5c49b0)

  40. See #35.

    Another Drew (0e4f52)

  41. Democrats should pay all the taxes for 10 years. That’s what it would take to get them to put their greed and envy aside long enough to wake up and smell the stench of Lefty clap-trap.

    Ropelight (4a83c9)

  42. #39, you have chosen your candidate and are not paying attention to what the opponent has said.
    Only to what your man is saying.

    That’s o.k.

    Oiram (983921)

  43. #38, JD, well I wouldn’t put it quite that bluntly, but I’m glad your finally coming around to the solution to Bush’s mess 😉

    Refine your comment and I’ll put your Obama/Biden bumper sticker in the mail.

    Oiram (983921)

  44. To varying degrees, Barack’s tax plans have raised taxes on people making $38,000. The Dems definition of rich fluctuates more than the rising tides, which Baracky was supposed to have stopped.

    And, Kyoto.

    JD (75f5c3)

  45. 42, you are mentally ill. I use Obamassiah’s own words and you can’t accept that fact.

    Just continue on, liar. We won’t miss you.

    PCD (5c49b0)

  46. I see Reff has boldly exposed his personal income and tax liabilities which lends much credence and pertinence to his points regarding taxes. Now perhaps one of you regulars might inquire of Oiram from whence his income flows, the annual total, his income taxes paid for 2007, and any other questions which might reveal the basis for his position that taxes are nowhere near high enough. I’ve found that the people clamoring for higher taxes either don’t pay taxes, or else they are quite insulated by subsidies and loopholes.

    I follow politics just enough to strategize my trades and investments. So I’ll leave all that to my betters here. But I will say that a dem win will be a shorter’s paradise. Not that I’d go long with the other side. Something about that trillion in national debt dispels that notion. Interesting times indeed.

    allan (bcedf4)

  47. How does taxing corporate income help anything exactly? Any taxes extracted from a business are eventually collected from consumers. The only thing I can see this doing is hiding the true tax burden we are all under.

    Soronel Haetir (ce5eda)

  48. Do you know how to tell a Democrat?

    You put your hand in your pocket, if someone else already has their hand in your pocket, it’s a Democrat.

    Ropelight (4a83c9)

  49. “Come bonus time, there will be more money for you and your wife to receive.”

    And the weather outside will always be sunny with polka dot flowers, red horsies and big, white poofy clouds in the sky! Your sewer water will also taste like champagne, and your bowel movements will smell like hot cinnamon buns from the oven!

    Dmac (874677)

  50. Do you know how to tell a Democrat?

    — Yes.

    Sit. Stay. Roll over. Play dead.

    Of course those are just the foreign policy commands.

    Icy Truth (7d05ae)

  51. Right wing dogma verges on being superstition. It’s like all Right wingers think they’re ideology is infallible in its perfection. They’re like millions of little Popes preaching the gospel. The good news. The way and the life to economic prosperity.

    Yet, they fail to see the new world we live in. They fail to see the failure of 12 years of GOP legistlative power and the total GOP power they’ve possessed since they had both the Exec and the legistlative and let’s look at the FACTS shall we:

    -GWB inherits the longest sustained economic expansion in the history of this country and a massive surplus.

    -He leaves having squandered that surplus and having created a massive deficit instead that is strangling the economy.

    -He leaves with financial institutions in shambles

    -He leaves the LARGEST federal government ever.

    -He leaves with millions losing their homes to foreclosure.

    -He leaves with the dollar worthless and our debt controlled by China. Nowhere near the paragon of human rights it might have us believe. Slavery and suppression of speech, religion and assembly kind BORK that idea, but nonetheless, what is good for China is good for any American Company ready to make use of that sweet slave labor and almost negligable labor costs.

    -He leaves with the median income having fallen, in spite of increases in productivity.

    -He leaves with the 1% richest even richer and the poorer, even poorer.

    -He leaves with people accruing ever greater debt because they’re crippled by health care costs.

    -In a jaw dropping act of irresponsibility, nothing, I repeat absolutely nothing has been done to address this issue by GWB or his rubber stamp Congress. They even tried to stop the S-Chip program for children. They’d rather people quit their jobs so they qualify for fed health money and create another impoverished family unable to contribute to the tax base.

    Need I go on with this?

    Too many basic correctional elements and regulations of the economy have been effectively dismantled by this administration because of their ideological “free market” dogma. The Reaganomics of the 80s are over. You can’t cut the taxes for the rich w/o it being an increase on the poorest. You can’t have CEOs making 400% more than the median salary of their workers and ship those jobs to China.

    Look over the carnage and failure and rot and corruption. This is what you people want more of?? Are you not ashamed of yourselves? By what insane magical thinking do you think the Bush policies have worked to make this country more powerful or economically secure?

    Anyhow, I admire your patience Oiram. Keep telling them like it is. The self propagating Republican fantasies in this place get stratospherically demented w/o at least one voice to keep them tethered to reality.

    Peter (6329e2)

  52. Well, they always say how much they admire Europe, particularly the French.

    Dmac (874677)

  53. Bush’s failure, and it has devastated the Republicans in Congress, is to let Hastert (He of the new toll road through his property) convince him not to veto spending bills. Had Bush vetoed some spending bills, even if they were from his own party, the Congress would still be in Republican hands. Knowing this does Obama and his minions no good because cutting spending is not on their agenda. They think that raising taxes raises revenue. Read this essay by Theodore Dalrymple and then tell me that the rich will lie down and let Obama take their money for his purposes. Even he does not believe that.

    Bill Clinton learned that the middle class pays the vast bulk of taxes and Bush has done something unusual. He has raised the percentage of income taxes paid by the top 5% of income recipients in this country. That is really unusual and it will not happen by raising the rates.

    I was a Democrat as a college student until I took an economics class.

    BY the way, the burden on the middle class is FICA and nobody is going to cut that.

    Mike K (6d4fc3)

  54. OIRAM…your quote:

    Fair share should be the percentage we are all paying. Coorporations are paying a smaller percentage than the middle class. Percentage of net earnings.

    Please don’t remind me that the rich are paying 95% of the total taxes, it insults my intelligence when you guys do that.

    Just look at our deficit, weakened dollar, foreclosures, gas prices, and jobless rate for this year and tell me with a straight face Bush’s tax cuts are working.

    Any of you.

    Fair share is what YOU say it is, not a set share, is it???

    So, someone who is paying nothing gets to tell me how much I should pay???

    CORPORATIONS PAY NOTHING!!! They pass their tax bill on to the consumer in the form of higher prices. Then, when they pay a tax on their earning at the end of a fiscal year, they adjust their prices accordingly for the next fiscal period in order to make a profit for their cost of doing business.

    The IRS releases the tax number as to which earnings group pays what share of taxes. That you ignore the facts implies you have no intelligence. However, please show us your numbers as to what percentages of total personal income taxes are paid by which earnings group.


    Jobless rate is still lower than it was during the Clinton Presidency. Please check the Labor Dept. Statistics on this. Foreclousures are a direct result of poor business practices tied to the GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS telling lenders to make risky loans. The Mortgage Bailout is another DEMOCRAT SPENDING PLAN THAT HAS INCREASED THE DEFICIT when in truth it is just another give-a-way to those who make bad choices, both in business and personal decision.

    As for the Bush tax cuts, Government income, meaning tax returns, is some 50% higher than any time in our nations’ history, even when compared as a whole number or as a part of the GDP.

    Ok, you’ve ignored the points again….

    Stop playing, cause you seem not to be able to …..

    (p.s….Obama’s tax plan: eliminate the Bush tax cuts for those over $250K and that is a correct statement. It also includes raising all other taxes to levels higher than they are now, except for those who are not paying taxes. I’m in that group of people who will pay taxes, ergo, my taxes will rise.)

    reff (959425)

  55. I can’t believe that Hillary Supporters are going to take this lying down!!! I am sooooo digusted with the DEMS that I will NOT vote my party and go with O’Bama!!How can America stand behind this guy??? He is toooo young and in-experienced to lead this country!! Come on can’t anyone else see this?? McCain is just more of the same!! The only one qualified to lead this country to greatness is Hillary Clinton!! I am writing in my vote for her!! I will NOT SUPPORT Obama or McCain because I don’t believe in either one of them!!This election is a travesty! America looses either way. We had HOPE when Hillary was running! Digusted with 2008 election!

    K.LaCost (252a10)

  56. It’s AMAZING that when a REP. is in office, the Republicans ALWAYS blame our poor economy on the DEMS, and their previous leader!! What a joke!! The only thing REPS are good for is wasting our tax dollars, raising the deficeit to enourmous proportions, and causing war!! Look back in history and tell me I am wrong!!! What a world we live in, I only hope it is still around after this election!!

    K.LaCost (252a10)

  57. Hillary lover-
    So Hill would not raise taxes and spend even more? How about her great Healthcare plan that was soundly rejected by majority of people? Did not her BS plan result in Repubs taking over Congress way back when? Doesn’t Congress actually APPROPRIATE the budgetary funds? Who has been in control of Congress since the ’06 elections? What party promised to lower energy costs and instead watched them DOUBLE? Which party is the party of defeat and wished to always emulate the cheese eating surrender monkey mindset?
    What party declined taking Osama into custody? What party had the Gorelick intelligence wall prohibting the FBI and CIA from sharing info about terrorists? What party was hoodwinked by dummy dubya into voting for the Iraq war? So is Bush really that stupid or is it the dems? Did not the very brilliant sHrillary vote for the war because of political expediency? Didn’t most everyone in the Clinton administration yak about Hussein’s danger to the Mideast with his acquistions of weapons of mass destruction? Did those exalted leaders insist that Saddam had to be removed. Didn’t the UN issue oodles of orders that Saddam ignored? Were we not still at war with Iraq when Bush II took office? Which prez presided over the dot com bubble?
    Now go back to your mental health provider and sing Kumbaya some more. Or dream of a manage a trois with Mikey Moore and Baracky.

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  58. #53, Reff. If I’m to believe your theories in your comment, then the only explanation I have for the mess we’re in is that the trickle down theory doesn’t work anymore. (not sure it ever did).

    I think what your telling me is that it’s o.k. for corporations not to pay the same tax rate that we are all paying. And the lack of tax that they don’t pay is passed on in the form of lower prices. See we can discuss that. I like that attitude.

    Of course it doesn’t account for us having to pay $4 per gallon of gas when the oil corporations have had record wind fall profits this year.

    Trickle down definitely is not applying to major oil companies.

    I don’t need to play Ref.

    Oiram (983921)

  59. Oiram…your statement about corporations was intended as a joke, right??? I mean, corporations don’t have a “lack of tax,” do they??? I’m guessing that corporations pay a tax, or they close their doors. Am I wrong on that one??? I mean, they even have an “inventory” tax, meaning they pay a tax on product that sits in a warehouse on a certain date every year, even if they don’t sell it.

    Corporations pay a higher tax rate than individuals, and then pass that on to consumers in the form of higher prices….what part of that do you think is good for consumers??? Then, corporations make sure their profit margin (about 9% in the case of oil companies, more on that later) is sufficient to maintain a solid industry by raising their prices when necessary, making the consumer pay even more.

    Now, since companies make money, and employ people who they pay….

    Oh, wait, people get their jobs from…..

    But, I digress….

    Trickle down….an interesting concept, because since government is the largest employer, and they TAKE money from wage-earners (including their own employees, meaning the government job is worth even less) and the government doesn’t create any wealth (only takes it) what this leaves us with is trickle down works ONLY FOR PRIVATE INDUSTRY. So, about half or so of our economy is completely successful in a trickle down theory, and the other half, the government employee half, is completely wasted….

    As for $4.00 gas….and “windfall record profits”…I said I’d get back to that….

    Have you ever, EVER, considered just how much gasoline Exxon/Mobil actually sells to make their profit??? Are you actually thinking that $4.00 gas means Exxon/Mobil is making $3.00 a gallon or something???

    The profit on a gallon of gas is???

    The number of gallons of gas sold by Exxon/Mobil reflected in the profit of the last quarter is???

    The percentage of profit as opposed to the GROSS INCOME of Exxon/Mobil in the last quarter is???


    Let’s see if you can find the answers…..and if you are willing to claim windfall profit taxes on any and all corporations MAKING MORE PERCENTAGE PROFIT PER GROSS INCOME THAN EXXON/MOBIL.

    But, again, you’ll avoid the facts, and continue to believe….

    And, you keep telling me about right wing talking points….

    reff (b68a4f)

  60. Oiram, typical of your misrepresentations of others positions and non sequitur style of argumentation. The oil companies have record profits – however, their profits are not “windfall”. For by traditional business measures such as by margin of revenues, their profit margins are quite unexceptional.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  61. maybe someone can find the precise figures that Oil companies are working with that will show mario the error of his windfall ways.

    If Oil Companies were actually making 10% profit based on the sales price, that would mean 40 cents a gallon. Ok, Americans use plenty of gallons, what’s the big deal if the government dictated they could have no profits at all? The price of gasoline might then be $3.60 a gallon? ok, I know that is fallacious because we have to consider that various taxing authorities take in far more in receipts on sale of gasoline than oil companies make as net profits. So I’m sure that Big Oil makes far less than 40 cents a gallon. How much less I have no idea, but whatber it is, some is sent out as dividends or used for further exploration. I will assume that domestic companies themselves are paying $120 a barrel for any oil they acquire from outside vendors. Someone with actual facts can correct me or give some indication what amount out of that $4 a gallon is Big Oil profit- a nickel a gallon would not surprise me, but don’t really know. If so, what the hell is the big deal in that? Oh wow, we could be buying it for $3.95 a gallon? We could be getting it for far less if the numbskulls in Congress would open up ANWR. McCain by himself could have allowed the damn exploration and development since ANWR thing failed by one damn vote, I believe. But I could be totally worng. I am sure that the donkeys will only screw things up with their stupidity and calls for windfall profits, law suits and assorted other hogwash interference into something that already works.

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  62. madmax….

    And, what scares me is that Obama will take the “windfall” profit tax and give $1000 to citizens to lower their fuel costs….

    I buy about 14 gallons a week (and drive about 325, meaning I’m not driving an SUV-wish I was), meaning about 700 gallons a year, or, in the case of $1000, about a savings of $1.25 a gallon for the year….

    Of course, many people will get that same $1000 who don’t own cars, and live in warm weather areas, so there will be no heating costs, or cooler climates, where A/C is not as necessary….


    reff (b68a4f)

  63. Reff-
    I feel your pain. What I pay for gas doesn’t mean that much as far as my own consumption since I do most of it in less than six miles round trip and my old Honda gets around 30 mpg as it is. BUT oil price effects many people in generation of electricity and in transportation of goods, raising price of those goods. The jackals who pushed for the ethanol folly should be castrated since they’ve made many people worldwide miserable and even hungry after foodstuffs have exploded in price due to diversion of corn for ethanol.
    It would help if so many like my neighbors didn’t feel the need for humongous SUVs and if Congress would stop playing games with domestic production capabilities. Even a worshipped lard ass like Fat Teddy is responsible for preventing alternates such as wind power NIMBY in his beloved nantucket sound.

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  64. I can’t believe that the DNC actually thought they could steal my vote for Clinton and then expect me to bankroll the vainglorious one.

    I gave generously to the Clinton campaign but now my money is going to McCain. Why? Because McCain is principled and honest, he has a record, and because by picking Sarah Palin he keeps lit the ideal that most excited me about Hillary’s campaign.

    I believe above all else that women’s rights are human rights and it’s long overdue to have a woman in the White House.

    With characteristic hubris and insensitivity, Obama gravely miscalculated the backlash that the disenfranchised Clinton base would generate. If McCain/Palin make it to the White House, please remember the PUMA Democrats who helped them get there.

    God bless America.

    AC (90c50b)

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