Patterico's Pontifications

8/26/2008

Day 2 at the Democratic National Convention

Filed under: 2008 Election — DRJ @ 11:18 am



[Guest post by DRJ]

Consider this an open thread on Day 2 of the Convention.

As reported by the Denver Post, the roll call vote of the delegates may be moved to the delegates’ hotels tonight with an early Wednesday morning vote. Some Hillary Clinton supporters oppose this plan:

“Supporters of Hillary Rodham Clinton furiously circulated petitions on the floor of the Democratic National Convention last night, hoping to stave off a plan to hold the convention’s roll call at breakfast Wednesday — out of the public eye — sources inside the delegations said.

The move being worked out between the Obama campaign and officials behind Clinton’s suspended bid, would work in two parts: Delegates would cast votes at their hotels Wednesday morning; that night, at the Pepsi Center convention site, the roll-call process would rely on the votes cast that morning, the delegates said.”

It seems the Obama campaign doesn’t want a prime-time floor vote. (Why won’t these Hillary people just go away?) Perhaps it hopes today’s events that are largely focused on Hillary Clinton and women will satisfy Hillary’s supporters.

Tonight’s main speakers include Hillary Clinton, who will be among the last to speak, as well as Governors Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania, Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas, Deval Patrick of Massachusets, and Brian Schweitzer of Montana. Here’s a link to Tuesday’s full schedule.

— DRJ

150 Responses to “Day 2 at the Democratic National Convention”

  1. Hill’ry Clinton said, “This is my day,”
    Though it wasn’t s’posed to go that way.
    She said that Barack
    Must be on crack,
    If he thinks she’s going away.

    The Limerick Avenger (3e4784)

  2. Of course, the vote will be taken by the “card check” method, not in secret ballot, right? If they did a secret ballot they might not know what to do with the results. And since they’re promoting card check for their union friends, card check should be good enough for the party.

    Don (4e900b)

  3. Card check is okay for them when they vote at a convention. Ask someone to produce a drivers license to vote, and the earth quits spinning and heads assplode.

    JD (75f5c3)

  4. You know what? These women aren’t democrats. They are groupies. If McCain wins the election, they can live with it- and know that Hillary Clinton was 100% to blame. Not her husband. Not his wife. Not the policies. Hillary Clinton, period. And, I like her.

    Nancy McCullough (9c5626)

  5. Tonight’s main speakers include … Deval Patrick of Massachuset[t]s

    Hmmm…did he check Barack’s acceptance speech to make sure they won’t both be using the same “just words?”

    L.N. Smithee (ecc5a5)

  6. If you check the story on this, you can see it’s just another caucus manipulation, just like Barack used all throughout the Democratic primary season. He has his people run the caucus, sends your people on a runaround, and then rewrites everything so all the votes are his. And here he is, transparently doing it again.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  7. Even the word “Democratic” in their name is a satire.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  8. Today’s speeches are quite boring to start with, as they were yesterday, at the beginning. Hopefully something more interesting will emerge.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  9. Kathleen Sebelius:

    race reference 60 seconds in (‘descendent of a maid served in Congress’).

    ‘McCain has so many homes he can’t keep track.’ *Jeez*

    Wow, is she dull!!!

    Attack McCain! Attack McCain!

    Green jobs.

    Comparing Obama to Lincoln. . . . apalling.

    — Was she really in the running for VP? I’ve had more fun popping a zit and watching it ooze!

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  10. The Obama campaign really likes that house reference, no matter how much it backfires on them.

    What a bunch of amateurs.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  11. Former Mayor of Denver:

    Compares Obama to JFK — predictable.

    Obama will create 5 million green energy jobs? Sure.

    Obama will spend 150 billion on alternative energy? That I believe (I don’t believe in it, just that he will spend the money).

    No race reference; the first speaker I’ve seen who did not mention race.

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  12. Bob Casey, Jr. –

    economy sucks; rich people bad; “Barack Obama will heal us” [gotta puke!]

    Obama is one with the common man (“He’s one of us”). LMFAO!!!

    Biden, native son; Hillary worked to bring the party together [Who does he think he’s foolin’?]

    Disagrees w/ him on abortion but is willing to overlook it . . . speaks wonders – about Casey.

    McCain is Bush’s 3rd term – yadda yadda; ‘the struggle of the urban proletariat’ [damn Commie!]

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  13. Lilly Ledbetter –

    Equality über alles; unfair pay for women (“equal pay for equal work”); big business BAD;

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  14. Lilly. The name of someone’s first dog.
    Ledbetter. The street they lived on. And-

    Well you know the rest.

    Vermont Neighbor (a066ed)

  15. Mark Warner:

    “My fellow Democrats(3x)”; equal opportunity;

    “lineage … last name … every American” [He’s playing the card!]

    GOP sucks, America is in the toilet;

    McCain’s plan will explode the deficit? ‘Scuse me a moment —
    Warner, you are a motherfucking piece of shit LIAR!!!

    Get off ‘foreign oil’ [apparently that includes the supply we get from GOOD countries; what did they do wrong?]

    Rebuild the military[?]; new times, new thinking [more like ‘no thinking’]

    Touting his own accomplishments; “You shouldn’t have to leave your hometown to find a world-class job” [one of those bumper sticker slogans that means absolutely nothing.]

    Compares himself to Thomas Jefferson – NO SHAME

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  16. I think Olbermann just said Hillary will do what “any responsible citizen” would do and support Obama. I think he also said the Clintons have to “live in this country, too” so they have an interest in seeing the right (i.e., Democratic) people in the White House.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  17. DRJ, democracy sure is inconvenient to our betters, isn’t it?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  18. Dee Dee Myers’ Freudian slip?

    I’m paraphrasing but she just said, in answer to Chris Matthews’ question regarding Hillary’s goal for tonight: “No matter what her aspirations for the future, Hillary Clinton will be better served by a Republican .. excuse me, a Democratic President.”

    DRJ (7568a2)

  19. SPQR,

    I don’t expect journalists and reporters to be completely neutral but some of them can’t even act neutral.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  20. CSPAN is pretty neutral, with no commentary at all.

    The “how many houses does he have” stuff has proven popular because the GOP was trying to label Obama as some kind of elitist, whereas McCain (and probably Romney) are the true elitists.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  21. False, Gene. Not even a nice try really.

    The Democrats have demonstrated their elitism rather perfectly with their refusal to address the large scale bans on drilling in the most productive areas for oil exploration. The Democrats have sacrificed the lower and middle classes to their fealty to extremist environmentalists. Environmentalists are the quintessential elitists.

    Nancy Pelosi, on Meet the Press, talking about how a $100K investment was a trivial amount of money, showed elitism.

    That McCain does not know the exact inventory of condos that he and his wife own is nothing compared to the elitism of Democrats.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  22. Gov. Schweizer of Montana (no doubt I spelled his name wrong) is an interesting guy.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  23. Deval Patrick:

    The major networks are all shafting him on coverage. Could it be because he is bl- . . . no,no,no; that couldn’t be it . . . could it?

    Pour money — lots of it — into education;

    ‘McCain is against hiring more teachers'; Excuse me . . .
    YOU, SIR, ARE A FUCKING PIECE OF GARBAGE LIAR!!!

    “Govt is the name we give to the things we choose to do together” — attributed to Barney Frank [at least he gave credit where it was due]

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  24. Icy Truth, it is a lie indeed since the Federal Government does not itself hire a single teacher.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  25. Diane Sawyer just informed the viewing public that Barack Obama is watching the convention on television. . . .

    And yesterday Katie Couric said that Michelle Obama “has a mind of her own”.

    Peabody Awards all around!

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  26. A good rousing speech by the governor of Montana.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  27. Suck it up guys. It’s their big night. Let them enjoy it. :)

    love2008 (1b037c)

  28. Now Hillary, who the GOP beat up on for years, is supposedly someone they feel sorry for and sympathize with. I remember, because I was for her during those years.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  29. They love Hillary tonight, and she’s up to the challenge. She called on everyone to join together for the purpose of electing Barack Obama. Meanwhile, husband Bill will not attend Obama’s acceptance speech.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  30. DRJ, it is hilarious how much the Clintons’ are playing the amateur Obamas.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  31. I wouldn’t give total credence to a press report like that. Bill has been known to change his mind.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  32. They played themselves right out of the White House.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  33. All that talk about uninsured Americans and yet there were 1 million fewer uninsured people in 2007.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  34. HRC at the DNC –

    equal opportunity, equal opportunity, equal opportunity;
    Several great songs being ruined in this introductory video;
    ’18 million cracks in the glass ceiling’ [that is, by far, enough of that phrase]

    Time for HillBillary to grab her cankles and squeal!

    Toeing the party line in order to ensure a political future for herself;
    “No way, no how, no McCain” [there goes that friendship]
    Anecdotes – where are the violins? Stephanie Tubbs Jones makes a posthumous appearance [that’s okay, she’s still warm]
    ‘unionization’ [damn proto-Commie!]; she mentioned terrorism – rare among this crowd;
    ‘the workers control the means of production’ [same old chit, mon]
    “repair our alliances around the world” [*sigh*]
    Harriet Tubman? WTF?!
    — Bill seems to be genuinely proud of her; that’s something, I guess.

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  35. I thought Hillary’s speech started slowly, with another recitation of campaign lines. But it built nicely, and she looked beautiful, always a plus. This was a powerful message to her followers to back Obama.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  36. Obama won’t be able to blame Hillary if he loses and I think Hillary has positioned herself as a loyal Democrat and heir apparent.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  37. Keith Olbermann seems pleased.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  38. If Hillary’s speech didn’t unite the party, then nothing will. It was on target and yes, it built nicely. Everything that needed to be said, was.

    *Interesting to note: Hillary referred to herself as a loyal mother (shot of Chelsea), loyal Senator, loyal Democrat, loyal American, etc., but never once mentioned loyal wife or referred to Bill in in any personal way but in only momentarily in the impersonal (POTUS).

    Dana (084de8)

  39. “1 million fewer uninsured people in 2007.”

    Leaving what, only 46 million? Including me.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  40. “Harriet Tubman (born Araminta Ross; c.1820 – 10 March 1913) was an African-American abolitionist, humanitarian, and Union spy during the U.S. Civil War. After escaping from captivity, she made thirteen missions to rescue over seventy slaves using the network of antislavery activists and safe houses known as the Underground Railroad. She later helped John Brown recruit men for his raid on Harpers Ferry, and in the post-war era struggled for women’s suffrage.”

    Wikipedia.

    If the John Brown stuff is true, it doesn’t make her an entirely outstanding character, but certainly an interesting one.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  41. Most polite interloper ever

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  42. Actually, I wonder if Hillary’s speech was too good. It may have rallied her troops but the fact is there is no way Obama can match her strength, experience, gravitas and resolve. He just doesn’t have it in him.

    Bad news for Obama – CNN just interviewed a delegate and she said after hearing the speech that she will vote for Clinton. She really identified with Hillary. Really.

    Dana (084de8)

  43. #37 – DRJ

    Keith Olbermann seems pleased.

    — What did JD call it . . . Obamagasm? ‘O-gasm’ for short

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  44. This is the best reality television show I have ever watched.

    JD (5f0e11)

  45. The commentators on PBS said it was too generalized; one of them said she could just as easily have been talking about Chris Dodd (*ouch*).

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  46. Obama can top this speech.

    A few votes for Clinton won’t hurt anything. There can always be a unanimous vote for acclimation at the end, with any dissenting voices drowned out. It’s a common trick.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  47. It is an Olbergasm.

    JD (5f0e11)

  48. Do you think if a Republican attacks Baracky, they will use the words wit, grace, and elegance in their description? Olberdouche gets worse every night. November 4th will be epic. He will assplode.

    JD (5f0e11)

  49. I liked the interplay between Hillary and Michelle, with Hillary returning Michelle’s compliment of the night before. And Michelle looks like she does have strong feelings for Hillary.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  50. Didn’t we clear this up already? It’s “acclamation”, you silly person you!

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  51. The nice thing about watching on CSPAN is that there is little intervening propaganda. I like my propaganda DIRECT.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  52. THERE IS NO DIVIDE WE ARE UNIFIED YOU ARE AN IRRATION UNREASONABLE RACIST IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE !!!!!!!!!!!!

    JD (5f0e11)

  53. And Michelle looks like she does have strong feelings for Hillary.

    — Now THAT is an innuendo, which could become a rumor, that would really liven up this joint!

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  54. I’m pretty sure that wasn’t the word you wanted to use.

    Maybe you meant this one?

    Steverino (1dda08)

  55. I like the MSNBC commentary even more than the speeches. I generally know what the speakers are going to say. What’s interesting is seeing how invested some in the media are in the “united Democratic Party.”

    DRJ (7568a2)

  56. As an editor for many years, I saw that after pressing Submit. I apologize deeply for my fingers. The reason that there are editors and proofreaders is that people make mistakes like that naturally. Get used to it.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  57. We could all use 4 editors, Gene Venable.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  58. Gene – Did you cry a little during Michelle and Hillary’s speeches ?

    JD (5f0e11)

  59. Incidentally, I bet (but have no way to prove it) that I know 50 times more about word usage than any of those correcting me. For one thing, real pros don’t spend time demonstrating their abilities in forums like these. It’s too easy, and pays too little. It was more profitable for me to edit Garry Kasparov, for example.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  60. DRJ – Do you get the feeling that the MSM might pushe the meme of a united Democratic party tomorrow? The beatings will continue until morale improves.

    Racists

    JD (5f0e11)

  61. JD: I cry a little in practically anything, including WALL-I and yes, those speeches, and I intend to cry at the Republican convention as well, in sympathy for John McCain, who I like and who I agree with on lots of issues.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  62. JD,

    Keith Olbermann will but I still think Tom Brokaw finds this awkward. I can’t tell about Brian Williams but he always seems uncomfortable to me.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  63. Amazing. You nudge ’em just a tiny bit and the jerky arrogance emerges.

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  64. Yes, “whom,” but I don’t believe in that bs.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  65. Is that like fishing for WALL-I’d Pike?

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  66. I have always disliked what I call “grammar nazis” which encompasses “spelling nazis”. If I ever quote you, you will find that I have corrected any spelling mistakes you have made that I saw without even mentioning them.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  67. Why does every damn Leftist claim some kind of educational superiority?

    McAuliffe just said that every single Dem presidential candidate is a better candidate than McCain. I wish he was still at the DNC.

    Eyewitness to history on this historic night? Good Allah. Olberassface makes me puke a little in the back of my mouth ever time he talks.

    JD (5f0e11)

  68. If you change something, it’s not really a quote.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  69. Does Nora have knee pads on?

    Maddow is abrasive. She has a face for radio.

    JD (5f0e11)

  70. Sorry if I offended anyone. I kiss the feet of Ayn Rand in penance.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  71. I’d like to see a debate between Coulter and Maddow.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  72. I have always disliked what I call “grammar nazis” which encompasses “spelling nazis”.

    Me: I’m not here to be liked.
    You: That’s a good thing.

    — There. That’s all played out. It was fun!

    “If I ever quote you, you will find that I have corrected any spelling mistakes you have made that I saw without even mentioning them.”

    — By all means, please do correct my mistakes.

    I wish you good luck in finding them.

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  73. Icy Truth, I don’t look for such things, but they do hit me in the face from time to time. I’m more interested in ideas.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  74. Ayn Rand? You are in the wrong place:

    http://www.capmag.com/

    — Many new friends to be made over there!

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  75. “If you change something, it’s not really a quote.”

    I realize that, DRJ, but I don’t think it misrepresents someone to correct an obvious and irrelevant slip.

    So sue me.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  76. I’m not sure why but I notice typos, too. Maybe it’s because my father always pointed them out when I was young or maybe it’s a form of OCD. I also like to edit but at some point I think you have to turn it off.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  77. Olberdouche has jism dripping off of his glasses. Mathews looks like he just woke up after sleeping in his suit.

    THERE IS NO DISAGREEMENT NO DIVISION UNITY UNITY UNITY

    JD (5f0e11)

  78. Dems really are misery pimps.

    JD (5f0e11)

  79. Olberdouche has jism dripping off of his glasses.

    — Hillary’s strap-on was loaded?

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  80. ““1 million fewer uninsured people in 2007.”

    Leaving what, only 46 million? Including me.

    Comment by Gene Venable — 8/26/2008 @ 8:17 pm ”

    Gene – The 46 million figure includes illegal aliens. A lot of folks don’t figure America has a duty to find insurance for them if they are violating the law by being here. Does it make sense to include them in that number to inflate it’s size?

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  81. I think Olberdouche’s message should play well with Hillary supporters – SHUT UP AND QUIT YOUR WHINING YOU STUPID BITCHES !!!!!!!

    JD (5f0e11)

  82. Gene – Where in the Constitution does it provide for socialized medicine?

    JD (5f0e11)

  83. What about young people who choose not to buy health insurance because they don’t think they need it? Or people who use their money to buy cell phones, satellite TV subscriptions, big-screen TVs, etc., instead of using that money to buy insurance?

    DRJ (7568a2)

  84. MSNBC just went 6 minutes without mentioning race. Granted, there was a commercial break.

    JD (5f0e11)

  85. That number also — stop me if you’ve heard this — includes people that CHOOSE not to purchase health insurance. People in their 20’s that still think they’re invincible (because they tend to have few health problems at that time in their lives).

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  86. Gene – Are people who self-insure, essentially buying high deductible catastrophic coverage included in those figures. I would guess not since there is no good reporting mechanism unless it comes from the insurance providers.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  87. Basically, the 46 million uninsured figure is a politics of fear figure that has been thrown out by the democrats and previously debunked six ways from Sunday, but Gene must have missed those memos.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  88. I think that 10 million would be too many.

    Also, I think that some of you are wrong-headed on this subject. Let’s say that someone PERSONALLY CHOOSES not to have insurance because they are 25 and feel invulnerable.

    Have you ever heard of a 25-year old hit by a car, seriously injured, and refusing care at a hospital because they didn’t have insurance? I haven’t.

    In fact, I heard of a man making ANTHRAX who ended up hospitalized, and I think the taxpayers ended up paying for his health care.

    It is BETTER AND CHEAPER to have people covered by a rational health care system than not. YOU end up paying for it if someone is uninsured and puts off getting preventive care and then is hospitalized for a serious illness.

    A person should NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to opt out of the health care system unless they SIGN AN AGREEMENT that they will be allowed to bleed to death in an emergency room if they try to get care while uninsured.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  89. On clearer memory, the man I am thinking of was not making anthrax, of course, but some other dangerous poison.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  90. Yes, “whom,” but I don’t believe in that bs.

    You were an editor? I admire those willing to flout the sillier grammatical rules (like splitting so-called infinitives), but “whom” (in its proper place) is pretty standard English.

    Patterico (aab138)

  91. So, y’all are saying that the estimate that

    “The percentage of Americans without health coverage fell from 15.8 percent in 2006 to 15.3 percent in 2007, and the number of uninsured declined by 1.3 million to 45.7 million. ”

    is inaccurate? I think this estimate was just revised. Is the organization that released it some sort of Communist front? And is the difference enough to make a real difference in how it portrays the overall situation?

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  92. I think that Follet or someone said that he kept a little silver axe in his desk drawer for splitting infinitives when necessary.

    There are various levels of grammatical correctness. I understand the rules, but when I answer the phone I am much more likely to say “it’s me” rather than “it is I”. The who/whom distinction isn’t as important as it used to be. The way language is used is constantly evolving, and it is folly to pretend otherwise. I think the way I used “who” rather than “whom” above, though it clearly violates the rule, sounds better, and that’s enough for me, because I have spent my whole life listening to language and usage.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  93. Well, I respect the approach, even if I disagree with its application in this particular instance.

    And we can’t jump on you too much for the “acclimation” thing if one of the bloggers here made the same mistake. Of course, I did once make fun of the L.A. Times for exactly the same mistake.

    Patterico (aab138)

  94. A person should NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to opt out of the health care system unless they SIGN AN AGREEMENT that they will be allowed to bleed to death in an emergency room if they try to get care while uninsured.

    I suppose you’d also make it illegal to pay for health care out of your own pocket when you don’t have insurance? (This is also known as being “self-insured.”)

    Yes, let’s force everyone to pay for health insurance, even if they don’t need or want it. Let’s force everyone to wear helmets in the shower because so many people slip and fall in the shower and hurt their heads. Let’s force people to read every day and not watch tv. Let’s force everyone to choose the way we want them to choose, because we know what’s best for them.

    Steverino (1dda08)

  95. I really did see that mistake immediately after I made it and before the others jumped in. It’s obvious.

    When you are a real editor, you sit down and hammer out agreements on these issues and decide what to do with them. That’s what a style book is for. Style books disagree, but the authors of style books often forget that their rules are not necessarily the rules of others.

    I worked for Sage Publications, publishers of social science journals. They had a fixation on the rules for using that vs which. I kept pointing out that people like Shakespeare, Melville, and the like didn’t use “which” in the restricted way Sage did, but Sage insisted on its rule, and that was ok with me.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  96. HEY HEY — I’m reading this.

    WLS (26b1e5)

  97. The point is, people without insurance basically force hospitals to care for them, because hospitals don’t have the heart (usually) to turn away injured people. It’s against the Procrustean oath or whatever (joke).

    Who was it who said that there is no society without coercion? John Stuart Mill, Walter Lippman, or ?

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  98. And, as I noted in the comments of that post, I was expressing concern about Denver’s elevation and the prospect that some attendees may faint during Obama’s speech due to not having properly acclimated themselves to the altitude before rising to worship the Obamesiah.

    WLS (26b1e5)

  99. Steverino,

    Gene is a Socialist. He may not realize you were being facetious because those were all good ideas. (that was sarcasm Gene, I don’t really believe they were good ideas… they’re lousy ideas for a free society.)

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  100. Yuh-huh.

    You got a similarly clever explanation for your other typos?

    :)

    Patterico (aab138)

  101. Comment by WLS — 8/26/2008 @ 10:41 pm

    O.o

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  102. Sure, my fingers are dumber than I am. I’m more interested in the main idea than in formal correctness.

    I am not a Socialist (responding to another post) unless believing in the current American system is to be a Socialist. I believe in a mixed economy. All the world’s great economies are mixed, meaning there is some state control and some freedom. The real argument is over the proportion of each; neither component of the mixture is workable by itself. That’s why it is a universal economic system — nothing else works.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  103. Gene,

    Going by some of your previous statements (I will provide links if you like)… You believe people with too much money should have some taken away by the government and given to poorer people. You believe healthcare insurance should be mandatory. You believe that it is possible for a very few individuals to gather up all the wealth of this nation and then there will be nothing left for everybody else. You believe that parents should not be able to pass along what they’ve earned to their children and the government should get it when they die.

    There were more like those. Explain again how you’re not a Socialist.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  104. Gene @ #40 said:
    “…Harriet Tubman…Union spy during the U.S. Civil War. After escaping from captivity, … She later helped John Brown recruit men for his raid on Harpers Ferry…”

    Except, Harper’s Ferry occurred before the start of the Civil War. In fact, the Union officer in charge of capturing John Brown was one Robert E. Lee.

    BTW Gene, why don’t you buy some health insurance?
    Or, have you been Black-Listed by the insurance co’s.?

    And, @ #92 you said:
    “…I have spent my whole life listening to language and usage…”;
    which leads me to believe that you might even be of an age to be eligible for Medicare.
    Don’t you buy Medicare Part B?
    And, if you have Part A, you’re not quite un-insured, are you?
    Plus, if you’re not quite eligible for Medicare, I’m sure that AARP will sell you a policy – that is what they do after all.

    Another Drew (98feb7)

  105. Actually, I didn’t say it was possible for a very few people to gather up all the wealth of THIS nation, but of SOME country, if I remember correctly.

    The other things you list are simply things that the government is doing NOW. As I say, if believing that what the government is doing now is socialistic, then I’m a socialist. But I don’t think so.

    Economists even have a phrase for taking money away from the rich and giving to the poor, if I remember correctly — maybe a real economist will correct me. I believe they are called “transfer payments”.

    Many things are “possible” which I alluded to. I absolutely did not say that parents should not be able to pass along what they’ve earned to their children and the government should get it when they die. You did not read me correctly. I said that a few powerful people should not be able to monopolize all the wealth and pass all of it on to their children. In fact, they are not allowed to pass it all on to their children, and they are not allowed to monopolize the wealth.

    In other words, on the whole, I was advocating the continuance of what exists, with some modifications.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  106. Another Drew 11:25pm – I’m sure that AARP will sell you a policy – that is what they do after all.

    Not if Gene gets his way they won’t. Nope – all healthcare decisions will come from one source, which, based on its association with the government and necessity for smooth function, will be absolutely and completely immune from any responsibility or accountability. If you don’t like it, feel free to die.

    After all, it’s for the children.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  107. “which leads me to believe that you might even be of an age to be eligible for Medicare.
    Don’t you buy Medicare Part B?
    And, if you have Part A, you’re not quite un-insured, are you?
    Plus, if you’re not quite eligible for Medicare, I’m sure that AARP will sell you a policy – that is what they do after all.”

    I’m not quite eligible for Medicare. And I’m quite sure that I will die quite a few years early because I didn’t get medical care when I needed it. I ran into several glamorous companies that paid poorly, and I’m sure that I will die because of it. But I did get the glamour, so at least that was something.

    I have already cost you, the taxpayers, way over $40,000 to pay for my health conditions that could easily have been prevented if I had had decent health care. I have things like congestive heart failure and diabetes and hypertension that could easily have been alleviated if I had had care that my employers wouldn’t provide. Now you get to pay the hospital bills.

    However, I don’t think that’s a good way to run a health care system.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  108. Well Gene, you could always demonstrate your concern for your fellow man, and just go out into the desert and die.
    That’s how the Native Americans handled their infirmary in old age, is it not.
    Don’t be a burden on society, show us what you’re made of.

    Another Drew (98feb7)

  109. I didn’t say it was possible for a very few people to gather up all the wealth of THIS nation, but of SOME country, if I remember correctly.
    Comment by Gene Venable — 8/26/2008 @ 11:30 pm

    Let’s see… ok, here.

    The American system is based on compromise. There are many unwritten rules that, if violated, could cause the whole system to come tumbling down. One such rule is that people need to perceive that they have a fighting chance to prosper in this system. If all the wealth were owned by a few families and they had the right to pass all of it on to their children, and the rest of us had no chance to get any of it, chaos and revolution would result.

    So I guess it was about THIS nation, wasn’t it?

    The other things you list are simply things that the government is doing NOW. As I say, if believing that what the government is doing now is socialistic, then I’m a socialist. But I don’t think so.

    Really, healthcare insurance is mandatory? Then why don’t you have any? Powerful parents can’t pass down what they’ve earned to their children? The Kennedy’s would disagree. But estate taxes (death taxes) tend to affect the middle class, not the more wealthy because there are loopholes for them. Gotta keep the proles down you know.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  110. In good time…

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  111. I have already cost you, the taxpayers, way over $40,000 to pay for my health conditions that could easily have been prevented if I had had decent health care.

    How did the taxpayers fund this? Medicaid? Whatever the program, you apparently aren’t picking up all of the tab. Isn’t that the same as insurance? And the glamorous companies that paid poorly… you chose where to work, right? I can’t imagine a company that had low-pay, no benefits, and related to editing being glamorous in any way… but it’s not my field so whatever. I’m glad the glamour makes up for it to you. I don’t know that I would feel the same though.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  112. “If all the wealth were owned by a few families and they had the right to pass all of it on to their children, and the rest of us had no chance to get any of it, chaos and revolution would result.”

    I’m quoting myself above. If that hypothetical could apply to any country (and it could) then it applies to the US, sure. But it also applies to every country that has ever or could ever exist.

    We live in a system in which many, many things are coerced. There is simply a disagreement over which should be and which shouldn’t be. There are few that would advocate, for example, that I have the right to keep and bear nuclear arms. I happen to think that the most efficient and cost effective way to run things is for health care to be mandatory for everyone.

    That doesn’t make me a Socialist. For one thing, the last I heard, Socialists believe that all the major industries should be government run. I don’t agree with that.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  113. I walked into a hospital that is government-funded and the hospital kept me for ten days and tested me extensively. I think that $80,000 is closer to the total cost, or maybe more.

    No, insurance is when you can go to a doctor and say “I have a right to come to you and ask for a diagnosis.”

    I didn’t, and don’t have that right. I will probably go to the hospital again soon in order to get medication. Because I haven’t had insurance, I will walk into the emergency room and demand care. (Along with a zillion other people.) I read somewhere that the minimum cost for an emergency room visit is something like $1,000-$2000. All I need is a refill of my meds. You will pay for it.

    Thanks!

    But it is not sane or frugal like real insurance would be.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  114. BTW, Gene, healthcare (in the strictist form of the word) is mandatory.
    By rulings of SCOTUS, anyone can show up at a hospital emergency room and receive healthcare for gratis.
    The argument is over health insurance.
    And, why haven’t you bought any if you’re so concerned about the healthcare system?
    Or, are you wealthy enough that you can pay cash for the demands you make upon the healthcare system in this country? But, you’re so self-centered that you want the rest of us to pay for your care regardless of the strain that might put on our individual budgets?

    Say, did you ever figure out how Harriet Tubman helped John Brown after being released from Confederate custody at the end of the Civil War, seeing as how he died at Harper’s Ferry before the war started? Just curious.

    And, with that, I shall retire from the field, and rest my eyes. Good Night, All.

    Another Drew (98feb7)

  115. No, I am interested in the Tubman story but haven’t had time to even read the rest of the Wikipedia article about her.

    I haven’t bought health insurance because I have been living for years on a small income. For a lot of that time I worked for the Internet Chess Club as a chess writer and editor. There were no benefits. Since then, I have been living on even less. Recently, I started receiving Social Security, but the $900 a month I get doesn’t buy a lot of care.

    When I was living in Moscow, I could get cheap healthcare and did, when I needed it. Everyone could, and took it for granted. True, maybe I should have stayed there, but I have dear friends here in California.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  116. For one thing, the last I heard, Socialists believe that all the major industries should be government run. I don’t agree with that.

    That’s a big difference, granted. But letting the government decide when the people have too much money and giving them the power to redistribute wealth is a major platform of Socialism as well. I despise the concept entirely, along with the idea that the government has earned money by my death. The estate tax is an abomination and runs counter to the principle of freedom.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  117. Sage is really interesting. It’s there for academics to get published and build credentials. Also for companies to print their research findings. A study can still be valid, but if it’s funded by a pharmaceutical or some place that needs to get the word out…

    re Insurance. It’s sometimes not easy to come by. People who want it can get turned down due to the tighter rules. (Tougher rules in place since around ’01, ’02.) Self-insurance is expensive but sometimes it’s not even possible due to rejection. A medical history can show several minor entries and it just disqualifies. So it’s not always laziness, being cheap or some idea of being invincible.

    Vermont Neighbor (a066ed)

  118. Gene – For what it’s worth, a fair system would demand that everyone pay something for treatment, rather than coerce people to buy health insurance by regulation. It’s been a repeated occurrence in our society that when something is mandatory, the recipient of the ‘regulatory generosity’ can abuse their position. After all, who’s going to remove them from that position?

    That being said, healthcare and health insurance are only two slices of the expense pie. Tort systems out of control in some states, government intervention mandating inefficient operations, ill conceived taxes, millions of illegals granted free treatment and, as I’ve mentioned, a system whereby some pay nothing while others are fleeced to make up the difference are also substantial factors.

    To pretend to ‘solve’ problems by invoking government intervention without examining all of the costs involved is lazy, and when you get lazy, you get ripped off. The very Democrats you support are in favor of this broken system, because they want to funnel money to their major donors by taking it over and running it as their own piggy bank. That the Bar Association is heavily Democrat speaks volumes of their real desire for the control of the health care will, while doing nothing to stop the actual bleeding.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  119. As I say, the American system is a compromise, a lot of it quite messy. It’s like the bee that shouldn’t be able to fly, but does anyway. What we have works.

    I’m afraid I agree with what’s-his-name, who said that “property is theft”. There was a Moscow Metro station named after him…ah, Prince Kropotkin! I think he said it.

    If you go back far enough, you will find that the original owners of any land just took it, probably by chasing off whoever had it previously. So I don’t see property as the ultimate foundation of a just society.

    People with money or property want to maintain the current system because they benefit from it. The people with more money or property benefit more. They are winners in the system. The system doesn’t always reward hard work. For example, someone who spends a lifetime working to build a better Murder Incorporated might be rewarded with death. Someone who spends a lifetime trying to buy property might be rewarded with bankruptcy.

    Fortunately, people with more are willing to pay more to keep the system going. That’s why it’s fair that the rich pay more than the poor. Keeping the system going sometimes means taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor. It has always been thus.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  120. You have to remember that the US is no longer “prosperity number one” in the world. A lot of countries are doing decently. So the model for what works should take into consideration what other countries are doing.

    You might think that free health care would encourage a bunch of bums to sponge off the system, but that doesn’t seem to be true in many countries in the world. Free health care works.

    So, I’m open to lots of ideas about how to do it, and I’ll think more about what everyone has said. But I don’t think that the way we are doing things is the best way, and I don’t think that a freer market is the best way to solve our problems. Some sort of government management or steering is necessary.

    The easy way, the Bush way, is to do nothing and hope that things will work out “naturally”. What we have now is the result of letting things work out. We need somethng better.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  121. Gene 12:34am – The system doesn’t always reward hard work.

    Incorrect. The error in the sentence is ‘always’. The system usually rewards hard work, but doesn’t follow a mathematical formula for returns based on hours worked. I don’t expect you to understand it, as you’re actually more of a communist than a socialist, (and I’d bet you’re embarrassed to admit that – especially with 100M dead in the failed experiment) but its the ability to choose your work that matters, not your hourly payment. I suggest you get out there a little more, and talk to some people that really love what they do – scuba instructors, pilots, actors, coaches. Many people who love what they do don’t make a lot doing it.

    The real crime of the Soviet Union was in crushing the dreams of people in order to fill some nebulous ‘greater good’.

    Freedom is the ‘greater good’, and if you’re against that, then you’re against the meaning of life itself.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  122. Fortunately, people with more are willing to pay more to keep the system going. That’s why it’s fair that the rich pay more than the poor. Keeping the system going sometimes means taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor.

    “Willing to pay more” and “Taking money from the rich” are not the same. You’re thinking of Robin Hood. Do you even see the contradictions in some of the stuff you write? This is not Moscow… they have a different system (which doesn’t work very well at all). Property is not theft. That type of propaganda has one purpose. To keep those in charge powerful. It has nothing to do with freedom.

    It has always been thus.

    Not here in America buddy. Not at all.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  123. Adding to Stashiu3’s excellent comment at 12:45 – Property is not theft. No. Moscow, in it’s current state, is theft.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  124. You have to remember that the US is no longer “prosperity number one” in the world.

    Where is there better care than here? Not the healthcare system (although it is still better than socialized medicine/free healthcare), but the actual care? You cannot get better care anywhere else in the world. If you meant anything else by “prosperity number one”, I would disagree with that as well. That doesn’t mean other countries aren’t doing well. China in particular has a fast-growing economy (in the areas they’ve turned to capitalist principles that is). Still, I don’t think anybody matches the United States.

    Free health care works.

    No, it doesn’t. There’s no such thing. Anywhere there is the illusion of free healthcare, you have access and quality-of-care issues… every time.

    Some sort of government management or steering is necessary.

    Some regulation is good. Management or steering by the government… not so much. Too much nanny-state crap already.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  125. Stashiu3 12:56am – Some regulation is good.

    Especially regulation that recognizes accountability for all parties in the transaction.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  126. If you go back far enough, you will find that the original owners of any land just took it, probably by chasing off whoever had it previously. So I don’t see property as the ultimate foundation of a just society.
    Comment by Gene Venable — 8/27/2008 @ 12:34 am

    Sorry, meant to address this as well. Again, we have inherent contradictions that you don’t seem to see. If they were “original owners”, who did they take it from? Also, is that your idea of a “just society”? If not (and I hope that is the case), isn’t a just society one where that doesn’t happen? The ability to own property is absolutely a foundation of a just society.

    (btw, “If you go back far enough” is an incredibly poor argument. How far back do you go? Should we not allow humans to inhabit the planet since “if you go back far enough” there weren’t any humans? Even going by the Bible, as an example, there was time between Creation and the appearance of Man.)

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  127. Comment by Apogee — 8/27/2008 @ 12:59 am

    Agreed.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  128. “Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. And on the SEVENTH DAY [yom] God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the SEVENTH DAY [yom] from all His work which He had done. And in the afternoon of the Seventh day, God created a sham real-estate brokerage, staffed by unscrupulous characters not licensed by the state. Upon seeing the fresh ground, these vermin lay claim unto the land, forging Grant Deeds of Trust and demanding that God notarize their false parchments.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  129. “Where is there better care than here?”

    Lots of places. Of course, it depends on how you measure it. You could at least have gone to see Sicko and be ready with arguments about it. I often go to see movies that I know I will disagree with, but most people seem to want only to reinforce the preconceptions they already have.

    If you take something like infant mortality, the US is way down the list from the lowest rate. And since many conservatives are so anti-abortion, you’d think they would be concerned that our system produces a higher percentage of dead kids than many other systems. Strangely, I have never heard any conservative express concern about out medical system and its overproduction of dead kids. Maybe I have been listening in the wrong places.

    Let me reverse the question — those of you who believe that the US medical system is the best in the world, how do you back that up? You really think we have a better system than England, Sweden, France, etc? Even though we don’t even cover 40 million plus of the people here? Why do you think we’re the best?

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  130. “we have inherent contradictions that you don’t seem to see. If they were “original owners”, who did they take it from?”

    True; in fact, the concept “original owners” is nonsense, unless you think that “god gave the land to them”, which I don’t believe.

    So, if original ownership can’t be established, justice can’t be based on someone inherently owning something. All ideas, property, culture, etc, comes from somewhere other than here, from the vanished dead, I guess. Where do we get the right to claim permanent property rights over something we didn’t create or always own? We don’t have such rights — only the system of agreement that we have created gives us those rights, and the rights can be taken away for many reasons, such as putting in a new freeway, finding a place to store nukes, etc.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  131. “The system doesn’t always reward hard work.

    Incorrect. The error in the sentence is ‘always’. The system usually rewards hard work”

    You say that the statement “the system doesn’t always reward hard work” is incorrect, and oppose it with “The system usually rewards hard work”

    The statement “the system doesn’t always reward hard work” does not conflict with the statement “the system usually rewards hard work.” In fact, they are in complete agreement.

    The fact that something “usually” follows implies that it “sometimes” doesn’t follow.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  132. You could at least have gone to see Sicko and be ready with arguments about it.

    Tell me you didn’t just cite a Michael Moore film while discussing healthcare with a nurse. No wonder you have no real facts. Ok, waste of time I see.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  133. Gene Venable –

    A person should NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to opt out of the health care system unless they SIGN AN AGREEMENT that they will be allowed to bleed to death in an emergency room if they try to get care while uninsured.
    — 1) That’s a nice level of compassion you’re showing there; 2) What if they just pay the bill?

    There are various levels of grammatical correctness.
    — It might be instructive for you to delineate them for us. In the meantime I’ll take a stab at it (just spit-balling, mind you):
    Queen’s English, ultra-correct
    Proper English, high journalistic standard
    College English, things like “who” and “whom” exchanged for readability
    Half-assed lazy blogger English
    Ebonics

    I understand the rules, but when I answer the phone I am much more likely to say “it’s me” rather than “it is I”.
    — A person should NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to speak the words “It is I” unless they do so whilst affecting John Lithgow’s stage voice.

    The who/whom distinction isn’t as important as it used to be.
    — Standards have slackened in recent years.

    “The way language is used is constantly evolving, and it is folly to pretend otherwise.
    — So who’s pretending? [Billy Crystal’s old Jewish man character for this one]

    I have spent my whole life listening to language and usage.
    — As have all of the people, all around the world, who are not hearing impaired.

    When you are a real editor, you sit down and hammer out agreements on these issues
    — That seems to imply that someone else is not a “real editor”. Of whom do you speak?

    Now you get to pay the hospital bills. However, I don’t think that’s a good way to run a health care system.
    — Agreed. The govt should have deducted nothing from your paychecks for Medicare, instead allowing you to invest that money in a MSA or HSA.

    I haven’t bought health insurance because I have been living for years on a small income.
    — And so your push for mandatory insurance is based on what? a belief that the government needs to force all of us (including you) to be more personally responsible?

    You might think that free health care would encourage a bunch of bums to sponge off the system, but that doesn’t seem to be true in many countries in the world.
    — What does that even mean? Those systems do not allow carte blanche elective procedures.

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  134. I often go to see movies that I know I will disagree with, but most people seem to want only to reinforce the preconceptions they already have.
    — Yeah. Like — you — going — to — see — Sicko.

    If you take something like infant mortality, the US is way down the list from the lowest rate.
    — And nothing less than number one will do. Being one of the better countries isn’t acceptable?

    And since many conservatives are so anti-abortion, you’d think they would be concerned that our system produces a higher percentage of dead kids than many other systems.
    — “Produces”? Uh, and is there supposed to be some kind of direct connection between abortion and infant mortality?

    Strangely, I have never heard any conservative express concern about out medical system and its overproduction of dead kids. Maybe I have been listening in the wrong places.
    — There’s that ‘production’ reference again. And you definitely have been listening in the wrong places if you think that conservatives don’t care about infant mortality, a significant portion of which is caused by babies having babies.

    Let me reverse the question — those of you who believe that the US medical system is the best in the world, how do you back that up?
    — It doesn’t have to be the best. It needs to be one of the best; our level of prosperity demands that much. And it is.

    You really think we have a better system than England, Sweden, France, etc?
    — Survivability statistics compiled by the AMA indicate that it is true.

    Even though we don’t even cover 40 million plus of the people here?
    — If your criteria is universal coverage, there will be no swaying you. If your criteria is quality of care, however. . . .

    Where do we get the right to claim permanent property rights over something we didn’t create or always own? We don’t have such rights — only the system of agreement that we have created gives us those rights, and the rights can be taken away for many reasons, such as putting in a new freeway, finding a place to store nukes, etc.
    — Aha! That proves something! Not sure what, but … something.

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  135. “When you are a real editor, you sit down and hammer out agreements on these issues
    – That seems to imply that someone else is not a “real editor”. Of whom do you speak?”

    Certainly not you. I would hazard a guess that most of the people in the world are not “real editors”. Does someone disagree?

    I was thinking of someone’s casual comment in one message that he also “likes to edit”. Maybe he spends his days correcting AP copy, but it didn’t sound like he was a “real editor” as I have been. By a “real editor” I was trying to indicate those who are aware that many rules are simply manners of choice, not real rules at all, and that most publications have a style guide that codifies what are actually fairly arbitrary rules, not written-in-stone rules. Many people who are not “real editors” seem to think that what their 10th grade teacher told them about starting a s
    entence with “and” or something, is an actual sacrosanct rule. It ain’t so.

    “There are various levels of grammatical correctness.
    – It might be instructive for you to delineate them for us. In the meantime I’ll take a stab at it (just spit-balling, mind you): (etc)”

    Your categories are probably as good as mine. The primary distinction is between spoken and written language. In many cases, spoken language needs practically no correctness rules at all, because in case of offense or misunderstanding, listeners can request further details and an explanation is easily forthcoming.

    In irc chat groups, rules are likewise not very importtant,for similar reasons.

    The stranger the audience, the more important rules become, and they need to be focused on how the audience will perceive them. Things like subject-verb agreement, consistent comma usage, precise pronoun references (“which ‘he’ are you talking about!”) become very important when the audience is distant.

    Anyway, that’s just a sketch of what I was thinking about.

    Changing subjects radically:

    “You might think that free health care would encourage a bunch of bums to sponge off the system, but that doesn’t seem to be true in many countries in the world.
    – What does that even mean? Those systems do not allow carte blanche elective procedures.”

    I didn’t make up the charge that bums might sponge off the system, that was the implication of the person to whom I was responding. Certainly, I can think that a doctor could be the “bum” in question, ordering a lot of unnecessary stuff for additional fees.

    This doesn’t seem to be a big problem, so it is not worth further defining the non-problem that doesn’t need a solution.

    My solid impression is that health care in other countries works and it tends to be less expensive than ours, so it’s only logical to wonder why and can we get some of that.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  136. ” You could at least have gone to see Sicko and be ready with arguments about it.

    Tell me you didn’t just cite a Michael Moore film while discussing healthcare with a nurse. No wonder you have no real facts. Ok, waste of time I see.

    Comment by Stashiu3 — 8/27/2008 @ 2:09 am”

    I should have known you are a nurse how? Because you use very nursey syntax? I don’t think so.

    And the reason you should have seen Sicko would have been so you could have explained its lies, evasions and misconceptions to idiots like me.

    You say that I have no “real” information, but I know that health care is very expensive, and that it is reputed to be less expensive in other countries. I know that its impact on me has not been entirely good, and because of some aspects of the care I encountered I expect to die sooner than I would like. And I know that lots of people are not covered by the US health care system.

    There may be lots of other things that I should know, but this is enough for me to conclude that changes should be considered.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  137. My solid impression is that health care in other countries works and it tends to be less expensive than ours, so it’s only logical to wonder why and can we get some of that.

    — When the cost of health care is half, but the tax rate is double, you’re watching a performance of Peter, Paul & Robbery.

    And I guess that all of these reports of limited care choices, waiting months to see a doctor, patients from countries with socialized medicine traveling to the US for their surgeries — just a few isolated incidents are they?

    Icy Truth (1d6b22)

  138. “And I guess that all of these reports of limited care choices, waiting months to see a doctor, patients from countries with socialized medicine traveling to the US for their surgeries — just a few isolated incidents are they?”

    Like “all those reports” about the Bermuda Triangle, they might be just false, of course. (See the old book The Bermuda Triangle — Solved! for an excellent discussion of how such stories clunk together and give a false picture of the actual situation.)

    Both you and I live in a difficult world, where stories are manufactured to appeal to our tastes. Another old book, Jaques Ellul’s Propaganda, gives further details. So getting the facts is difficult. To a certain extent, we have to go on hunches. My hunch is that there is a better way. I am a pragmatist, which means that if the way I choose doesn’t appear to work, I am perfectly ready to abandon it and try something else.

    But the stories I hear (and the fact that I don’t mind waiting in corridors for hours, having done a lot of that right here in the US) make it seem to me that a national healthcare system would be preferable, red tape and all.

    I did, by the way, achieve an appointment at the hospital I mentioned. A few weeks ago, I received an appointment for — Nov. 3! For a simple exam. So we see that delays are not unknown here in the US. In the meantime, it looks like I will require several $1,000+ visits to that emergency room to get medicine refill prescriptions, paid for at taxpayer expense.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  139. I should have known you are a nurse how? Because you use very nursey syntax? I don’t think so.

    Comment by Gene Venable — 8/27/2008 @ 2:56 am

    Not to speak for anyone else, but what I got out of the comment you cite was that you appeared to assume, without knowing anyone else’s possible expertise, that you knew more than anyone else on the thread based on having seen a film by a liberal nearly universally known (even among liberals), for, let us say, not being strictly honest with all his facts, in order to promote his message.

    It’s a bit like your being willing to assume (“bet”) upthread that you probably knew “50 times more” than others with whom ( :) ) you were speaking about grammar, spelling, etc. With all due respect, how would you know?

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  140. I did, by the way, achieve an appointment at the hospital I mentioned. A few weeks ago, I received an appointment for — Nov. 3! For a simple exam. So we see that delays are not unknown here in the US. In the meantime, it looks like I will require several $1,000+ visits to that emergency room to get medicine refill prescriptions, paid for at taxpayer expense.

    Comment by Gene Venable — 8/27/2008 @ 3:37 am

    Do you mean that you have no insurance, or that you have Medicaid or a similar insurance? There is a big difference.

    I worked for a medical clinic in a low income neighborhood for almost 15 years. We had many patients on Medicaid and other low-income (local) insurances, and about 5% were self-paying (no insurance). The doctors charged $45 for a self-pay routine “intermediate” (typical recheck and Rx refill) visit (I think it’s $50 or so now). And since people were self paying, the doctors would typically give out samples of meds, as well as several refills per visit, to help the patients out. I was the finance person, so I worked with these patients with payment arrangements if needed. And they didn’t have to routinely use the emergency room. And they didn’t wait weeks, let alone months, for appointments, either.

    This is in a medium-sized U.S. city. Just thought I’d throw that data out there next to your “several 1000+ visits” data.

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  141. I did, by the way, achieve an appointment at the hospital I mentioned. A few weeks ago, I received an appointment for — Nov. 3! For a simple exam. So we see that delays are not unknown here in the US. In the meantime, it looks like I will require several $1,000+ visits to that emergency room to get medicine refill prescriptions, paid for at taxpayer expense.

    Why don’t you just go to a ready care/Urgent Care/Community Clinic? That would cost you far less than $1000, and you wouldn’t be wasting the ER’s time. And at the first two, you don’t need an appointment, you just show up and get in line.

    Pablo (99243e)

  142. about 5% were self-paying = about 3% were self-paying

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  143. Dammit, all. Just pay for Gene’s health insurance that he chose not to provide for himself over the years. Heartless capitalists.

    JD (5f0e11)

  144. Why don’t you just go to a ready care/Urgent Care/Community Clinic? That would cost you far less than $1000, and you wouldn’t be wasting the ER’s time. And at the first two, you don’t need an appointment, you just show up and get in line.

    Comment by Pablo — 8/27/2008 @ 4:40 am

    Absent more information from the poster in question, it does seem that he would rather pay nothing himself, and cost the taxpayers $1000 (or whatever it costs at the ED), than pay $50 or so himself and save the taxpayers that large amount of money. Would be happy to hear that the situation is different than it looks.

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  145. And the reason you should have seen Sicko would have been so you could have explained its lies, evasions and misconceptions to idiots like me.
    Comment by Gene Venable — 8/27/2008 @ 2:56 am

    You assume I didn’t see it.

    You assume it’s credible enough to cite as authoritative.

    You assume that nobody here might know what they’re talking about when it comes to healthcare (like a nurse maybe?)

    You assume that any nurse who saw Sicko should spend time debunking its propaganda for the benefit of every idiot (your word, not mine) who believes it.

    You assume you know 50 times more about editing than others here.

    You assume that your anecdotal experiences reflect the state of our healthcare system.

    You assume other countries have a better system, both in healthcare and economics, without any evidence other than your “hunch”.

    You make a lot of arrogant assumptions. I’m sorry you have health issues, I have more than a few myself. But it might benefit you to comment less about things you are ignorant of and just read for a while, get to know a site and the folks who comment regularly (or even use the search function here to plug in the name… you might have known I was a nurse from that even if it hadn’t come up in a thread. Try it… I bet you find some interesting stuff.), and benefit from those with expertise in different areas. If that doesn’t work for you, coming back and acting like an arrogant ass again is always an available option.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  146. Dammit, all. Just pay for Gene’s health insurance that he chose not to provide for himself over the years. Heartless capitalists.
    Comment by JD — 8/27/2008 @ 4:47 am

    But…. but… he had a job with a “glamorous” company… low-paying and without benefits… but it was “glamorous“!!! You didn’t expect him to give up the “glamorous” job for one that actually paid a decent wage, provided health insurance and retirement benefits, and wasn’t “glamorous“, do you? Besides, how would he have gotten such expansive expertise in economics and healthcare anywhere else but The Internet Chess Club?

    (he got rooked) 😉

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  147. One of the reasons I took early retirement from the Pa. state system was because they offered paid Blue Cross/Blue Shield. I never use it since I left, but it is good to know it is there for some kind of medical disaster. I don’t even avail myself of the paid prescription program. But I know plenty of people over the years who made it a point to milk both things for all they were worth, demanding drug prescriptions from their docs at every turn. I feel bad for the people who took various jobs whose employers don’t provide health insurance but that was the employees’ choice. For example, a father in a rather dead end job with kids may well have a tough time without any insurance, but many don’t consider whether that top of the line SUV is necessary to their lifestyle. I suppose it may be if status and image are important in one’s life.

    I know plenty of people in their fifties with terrible medical conditions, many exacerbated by youthful life style choices centered on booze and drugs. And it is no surprise that they STILL suck on those ciggies too. I’m not Nurse Bloomberg but it only makes sense to admit that a two or three pack a day nicotine habit is killing you. I have no clue what tobacco costs now, but add it up and I wonder if the cost might not buy some health insurance.
    Funny, my cousin in Pa. is on SSI and has no primary care physican. Instead she has one of those nurse practioner. So the other day she takes ill and heads for the ER. And we know that will cost someone an arm and a leg, but not her. It was a comedy of errors as the one tending to senility doctor tripped over her IV line, pulling it halfway out. It might help in her case if she would watch her diet and stop the smoking. And I’m sure another cousin pushing 400 pounds might fare a bit better medically if she lost some weight and didn’t spend much of her existence in bed with the Home Shopping Network for companionship, but then she always has that oxycontin and morphine for succor. I guess it is hard for some people to consider that having your blood circulate a bit is good for the body too.
    I have not seen fat fecker Moore’s propaganda film Sicko but I do know enough Euroweenies and Canadians who come to good old USA for medical woe treatments.

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  148. Where did Gene disappear to? *snort*

    (btw, I thought “he got rooked” would get at least a snicker. harumph!)

    😉

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  149. The title of this thread was “Day 2 at the Democratic Convention”. I’m new here, but it seemed to me that with a title like that, it was logical to move on after “Day 2 at the Democratic Convention” was over. So I did.

    Gene Venable (86f20c)

  150. We never disappear, Gene. We live here.

    DRJ (7568a2)


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