Patterico's Pontifications

8/6/2008

I Don’t Like This One Bit — If the Chinese Didn’t Pollute Their Freaking Country They Wouldn’t Have To Worry About Being Offended

Filed under: General — WLS @ 1:22 pm



Posted by WLS:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/07/sports/olympics/07masks.html

I’m still not having much luck with hyperlinks, so cut and paste if you need to.

But to goad the athletes into apologizing to the Chinese because they were “insulted,” when the real issue is the outrage the world should feel over the manner in which THEY have fouled the air in their own country, makes me want to retch at the pathetic PC of the US Olympic Committee.

135 Responses to “I Don’t Like This One Bit — If the Chinese Didn’t Pollute Their Freaking Country They Wouldn’t Have To Worry About Being Offended”

  1. WLS

    Pat’s “link” button asks for two fields. The first is the actual URL, the second is the text you want to appear in the hyperlink.

    So to send you to this site, for example, the first field would have “http://patterico.com”, and the second would have “Patterico’s Pontifications”…

    It would result in the following:

    Patterico’s Pontifications

    Maybe that will help with the problem?

    Scott Jacobs (425810)

  2. Ummmmm…..they wore masks in the airport on arrival. That was the issue. Other protesters were not told to apologize.

    Ever tried making a protest at a U.S. airport wearing a mask?

    I repeat at a U.S. airport.

    Oiram (983921)

  3. we are the bad guys, WLS. You must always remember that.

    JD (5f0e11)

  4. This is the closest thing to the Munich Games of 1936 in my lifetime.

    I pray that a Jesse Owens arises in all this disgusting mess.

    Ed (841b4a)

  5. As predictable, along comes Oiram.

    JD (5f0e11)

  6. Glad I could be of service JD. Also happy to not assist you in preaching to your own choir at Patterico. :)

    Oiram (983921)

  7. WLS and others, I thought you would appreciate these perspectives from an American ex-pat in Beijing (whom by his own admission, is making tons of money working there):

    href=”http://leeinchina.com/index.php/site/meet_the_hippies/” target=”_blank” title=””>Lee In China: Meet the Hippies

    Lee In China: From Bad to Worse

    qdpsteve (bfa2ca)

  8. Oops… here’s that second link again:

    Lee in China: Meet the Hippies

    qdpsteve (bfa2ca)

  9. This relates to Patterico’s earlier post regarding “Totalitarians, Leftists, and Censorship”. The ChiCom Left (or any Left) just cannot, or will not, admit to their being the source of the smog problem, so their natural PC reaction is to blame the athletes for China’s embarrassment. If these games don’t go well it will be the athletes and the IOC’s fault. It’s what the Left does, fail and blame others.

    C. Norris (02ce8d)

  10. “We have to explain that looks can be deceiving, and that it looks like fog, but actually the air quality is good.”

    If it looks like fog, but isn’t actually fog, I don’t want to breath it.

    Ever tried making a protest at a U.S. airport wearing a mask?

    That’s the thing… They weren’t actually protesting. No signs, no chants, just walking…

    So what, exactly, did they do wrong besides suggest “the air sucks here”.

    Which it does, btw.

    Scott Jacobs (425810)

  11. Wow, did you guys read The New York times link?

    The only ones asked to apologize to the Chinese were the ones who wore these masks in the airport.

    Please, think of what it would be like to you if you saw a group of Chinese or anyone for that matter wearing black masks in an Airport.

    Oiram (983921)

  12. Oiram…

    Here is a quote as to WHY they wore the masks…

    At a test event last year, smog covered the city and even seeped into the velodrome. Several of the track cyclists came down with upper respiratory infections.

    Scott Jacobs (425810)

  13. Don’t forget about Kyoto.

    JD (5f0e11)

  14. Wouldn’t it feel good if an Islamic country asked their people to apologize to The U.S. for praying on U.S. airplanes? Protest or no protest???

    Oiram (983921)

  15. Please, think of what it would be like to you if you saw a group of Chinese or anyone for that matter wearing black masks in an Airport.

    I would think “Yeah, the air in Chicago does suck…”

    They were SURGICAL masks that happened to be black. They weren’t wearing Nixon masks, for God’s sake…

    Scott Jacobs (425810)

  16. Oiram – The Chinese athletes would not need to wear a mask here, as we do not have the air quality problems that they do. Maybe if President Clinton had been able to convince 97 Senators to change their votes on Kyoto there would not be these issues.

    JD (5f0e11)

  17. Wouldn’t it feel good if an Islamic country asked their people to apologize to The U.S. for praying on U.S. airplanes? Protest or no protest???

    You think we would ask for one? You haven’t been paying attention…

    Scott Jacobs (425810)

  18. Sure, sounds good JD. Kyoto, yup, 97 senators. O.K. Great.

    Just out of curiosity…….. why don’t we have the air quality here that they have in China?

    Oiram (983921)

  19. Oiram and afall are being exceptionally trollish today. Aggressively ignorant or willfully obtuse. Frankly, at least Levi was honest enough to let loose, while these 2 snipe around the edges. The only functional difference is the lack of f-bombs.

    JD (5f0e11)

  20. I know we didn’t ask for one Scott.

    But I know how you and a lot of people did feel when they did that.

    I’m just simply asking how you would of felt if they did apologize?

    Please don’t insult my intelligence by saying you wouldn’t of cared.

    I’ve paid way too much attention JD.

    Oiram (983921)

  21. Just out of curiosity…….. why don’t we have the air quality here that they have in China?

    It certainly isn’t because of Kyoto…

    Could it be because we already have a massive pile of laws regulating what factories can put in the air? We don’t need an international body telling us when the world’s BIGGEST polluter has enough smog that it seeps into a enclosed space and gives out people resp infections…

    And China’s air is HORRID. I’d wear a mask too…

    Scott Jacobs (425810)

  22. But I know how you and a lot of people did feel when they did that.

    Ok, I’m about 3 seconds from being REALLY impolite…

    Quote my exact words regarding that incident.

    Scott Jacobs (425810)

  23. Wow JD really?

    Interesting.

    Sounds like you either prefer the F bombs, or that there be no Democrats and liberals allowed on this site.

    If you can’t stand the heat, I welcome you to get out of the kitchen.

    Oiram (983921)

  24. Oiram – Because of Kyoto. That is why our air is so superior. That and the fact that China pollutes far more than we do.

    JD (5f0e11)

  25. Pollution is a myth, you enviro-freaks.

    Smedley (444e9b)

  26. Please don’t get impolite Scott. I’m following you here dude.

    I just don’t know that this post is putting into perspective who exactly was asked to apologize and for why.

    Re-read the new your times article if you like. Here is the link from the original post here.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/07/sports/olympics/07masks.html

    Oiram (983921)

  27. Oiram – You bring no heat. Just predictable Leftist pablum.

    JD (5f0e11)

  28. You know how we felt, Oiram? Do tell …

    JD (5f0e11)

  29. Let me tell you a story about Los Angeles,California JD.

    Back in the 70’s when I was a child, there were 3rd stage smog alerts on a regular basis. We couldn’t go outside for P.E. during school. Now after school all bets were off, me and other children played are hearts out. Of course before going to bed there was pain in our chests when we breathed. That’s gone now. That went away long before KYOTO.
    See the government meddled in our affairs and put restrictions on how much smog could be put into our atmosphere. Damn government interference! Damn Liberals!……… much better air though.

    Thus much better air quality here than China.

    Thanks please come again.

    Oiram (983921)

  30. So JD, you mean to tell me you were o.k. with Muslims needing to pray during flights in The U.S.??

    Really?
    I’m sorry if I lumped you in with all of my other conservative friends and quite a bit of liberals I might add.

    Oiram (983921)

  31. Oiram, I want a god damn response to my challange.

    Quote my EXACT words regarding the “praying on the plane” incident.

    Your intelligence will be the LEAST of the things I insult if you can’t back up your baseless attack.

    Scott Jacobs (425810)

  32. FWIW – Nobody has a problem with Leftists and/or Dems commenting here. Nobody. There are several honest ones that debate in good faith. In a Venn diagram, you are not in that group.

    JD (5f0e11)

  33. Sorry Scott. I just read it.

    But still, I don’t see anything wrong with apologizing to a country after wearing the masks in their airport.

    Oiram (983921)

  34. Where is the quote, jack-hole?

    You come here and you insult me, presume to know my mind, my words, and my actions, and then try to slink away like some worthless guttersnipe?

    I don’t God Damn think so.

    Scott Jacobs (425810)

  35. Oiram #23:

    Sounds like you either prefer the F bombs, or that there be no Democrats and liberals allowed on this site.

    I’d prefer to have a reasoned discussion using facts and logic. I’m still waiting for the adult democrats and liberals to show up. Instead we get the childish antics of you and afall.

    Kenny (76922b)

  36. See the government meddled in our affairs and put restrictions on how much smog could be put into our atmosphere. Damn government interference! Damn Liberals!……… much better air though.

    You mean liberals like the President who created the Environment Protection Agency, Richard Nixon?

    L.N. Smithee (b048eb)

  37. Thank you JD. I try not to be dishonest if I come across that way it means I have to work on my comments.

    Oiram (983921)

  38. You mean liberals like the President who created the Environment Protection Agency, Richard Nixon?

    Yes, JUST like him…

    That damn, dirty hippie…

    Scott Jacobs (425810)

  39. No, I just mean Presidents who knew that having government on your back is a bad thing, yet having government by your side is a good thing.
    Yes such as Nixon regarding The Environment Protection Agency.
    Thanks I was too young to remember that it was him.

    I never said here all Republicans and all they believe in are bad.

    Oiram (983921)

  40. So JD, you mean to tell me you were o.k. with Muslims needing to pray during flights in The U.S.??

    Really?

    Well, you are really attempting to compare apples to unicorns, but I really have no problem with people praying, so your assumptions were, at best, unfounded.

    JD (712926)

  41. Cyclists are one heck of a self-centered, narcissistic bunch of enviro-wackos. They are not any nicer in San Francisco or Seattle than they are in Beijing.

    Heh! I would love to see them put a Critical Mass together in downtown Beijing, though.

    nk (e38352)

  42. Let me tell you a story about Los Angeles,California JD.

    Back in the 70’s when I was a child, there were 3rd stage smog alerts on a regular basis. We couldn’t go outside for P.E. during school. Now after school all bets were off, me and other children played are hearts out. Of course before going to bed there was pain in our chests when we breathed. That’s gone now. That went away long before KYOTO.
    See the government meddled in our affairs and put restrictions on how much smog could be put into our atmosphere. Damn government interference! Damn Liberals!……… much better air though.

    Thus much better air quality here than China.

    Thanks please come again.

    Oiram, thats because we are a democracy (republic) and have freedom to protest, speech, and assembly here.

    G (722480)

  43. Heh! I would love to see them put a Critical Mass together in downtown Beijing, though.

    Comment by nk — 8/6/2008 @ 2:36 pm

    Given how they value individual human life over there I wouldn’t be surprised if the Chinese’d take out a few cyclists with helicopter police snipers. Public safety and all; you know how disruptive Critical Mass can be and how much of a priority a lack of disruption is there…Why, sanctity of human life? What’s that?

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  44. I’m pretty sure I apologized for lumping you in with the conservative crowd I hang around with JD.

    “Apples to unicorns?” JD?

    How did you and others end up in a fight over gun control in the post:
    “Totalitarians, Leftists, and Censorship”

    Inquiring minds would like to know.

    Oiram (983921)

  45. “… the real issue is the outrage the world should feel over the manner in which THEY have fouled the air in their own country …”

    Huh? Why does the world care if Beijing is smoggy? Plenty of other things that are more outrageous than that.

    gp (72be5d)

  46. Well, Oiram, wearing a mask to prevent further breathing problems by an athlete that is in almost a purely cardio event is not quite analogous to praying. Hence, apples to unicorns. Would it be more easy to understand had I likened it to comparing Rocky Mountain Oysters to arugula?

    JD (712926)

  47. I never said here all Republicans and all they believe in are bad.

    so you say that elsewhere?

    Besides, are you capable of telling the difference between a conservative and a republican?

    G (722480)

  48. How did you and others end up in a fight over gun control in the post:
    “Totalitarians, Leftists, and Censorship”

    Look! Over there! Something shiny. Not that you actually care, but the gun control debate came about when Tom informed us that strict gun control laws were done to increase personal liberty, and several people pointed out that the government forbidding people to defend themselves was the exact opposite of increasing personal liberty.

    JD (712926)

  49. “Just out of curiosity…….. why don’t we have the air quality here that they have in China? Comment by Oiram” at #18

    Apparently you didn’t live in LA while the chemical MTBE was put in gasoline to oxygenate the fuel under the auspices of improving air quality. That stuff made a lot of people (and animals) very sick. It was banned. If you are going to take credit for improvement are you also going to accept the blame for harm? If not, why?

    C. Norris (02ce8d)

  50. No one you know #42,

    My impression is that bicycles outnumber cars a thousand to one in Beijing’s traffic. That the bicycle is still the main form of transportation there. And that a Critical Mass would get the tar beat out of them by people riding their bicycles to work, to school or shopping.

    nk (e38352)

  51. Just FYI, last fall Chinese organizers invited mountain bike racers from the top ten-ranked nations for a race in Beijing to preview the Olympic course. The race was held in smoggy, hot and humid conditions and only eight men (less than half) and about half the women’s field finished the race.

    American world champion rider Adam Craig commented after the race on the polluted conditions. “I don’t drop out of races in my backyard, let alone ones I fly to the other side of the world for…but I did this one. I had no option. After two laps (about 25 minutes) of riding very comfortably with the lead group up and down the short, steep pitches of Lashan Mountain…and thinking I could probably attack whenever I wanted and win for a while, my lungs stopped working. It started with a routine deep breath on a descent to recover a bit, which produced a sharp pain and fit of hacking,” said Craig, “then progressed rapidly to a state where I was unable to take more than one quarter of a breath, even that producing coughing, hacking, spitting up all sorts of gross stuff and feeling nauseous…”

    Peccator Dubius (0a6237)

  52. “Damn government interference! Damn Liberals!”

    Not only did Nixon enact the EPA, but Teddy Roosevelt was the President who advanced and enacted the first National Park (Yellowstone) and also established the National Forestry that dwarfs the acreage that the National Parks encompass currently.

    TR was a Republican, BTW.

    Dmac (c859cf)

  53. All I’m simply saying is that without government intervention C.Norris, my lungs would be falling out by now.

    I’ll admit I know nothing about MTBE being put into gasoline to improve air quality.

    Are you C. Norris willing to admit that government intervention is needed….. occasionally??
    I’m not saying totally, but occasionally, this was the reason I brought up air quality in L.A.

    Something changed, and I know it nothing to do with big corporations.

    That’s all.

    Oiram (983921)

  54. #51 “TR was a Republican, BTW.” Thanks for the history lesson DMAC :)

    Is government intervention only o.k. when it is a Republican administering it?

    Oiram (983921)

  55. My impression is that bicycles outnumber cars a thousand to one in Beijing’s traffic. That the bicycle is still the main form of transportation there.
    Comment by nk — 8/6/2008 @ 2:54 pm

    Oh – didn’t know this; thanks.
    You’d think, then, that the lack of ability to look more agile, cunning and more-environmental-than-thou than the surrounding traffic, alone would discourage a Beijing CM ride. Not to mention a desire to avoid a beating or two. :)

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  56. I’m pretty sure the IOC knew before they chose Bejing that the deplorable air quality there was right on a par with their human rights record. This is a surprise to anyone?

    If there is a blame to lay at the feet of those who actually had some control over the matter, it would be the IOC when they were considering Toronto, Paris, Bejing, etc., for the games’ location. So instead of serious consideration for the athletes, human rights, etc., they caved to the political correctness meme. Meh.

    Bad form for the athletes. Black masks? Of course. At least wear white. Racial politics, y know… The Chinese and their response? Again, why is anyone surprised? This is a country whose national mantra could be #42’s,

    “…sanctity of human life? What’s that?”

    Dana (b4a26c)

  57. “Why does the world care if Beijing is smoggy?

    Gee, I don’t know – perhaps because both China and India have been sending ginormous amounts of polluted air that travel completely around the world, sometimes twice before dissipating? China’s substantial environmental problems have been well – documented, and they were warned repeatedly to clean up their putrid air before the Olympics started. They can’t do it, because even though they’ve banned almost all car and vehicular traffic in Bejing, the massive factories located within 100 miles of the city center are still spewing out volumes of polluted air, even though their industrial capacities have been severely curtailed.

    Watch the athletes start collapsing on the track from the foul air – it’s already happened at many other events during the past few years. But the cyclists are expected to applogize for trying to protect their health? Sure, they should allow their lungs to go to hell, all in the name of kissing the Chinese and Olympic potentate’s posteriors.

    Dmac (c859cf)

  58. “…bicycles outnumber cars a thousand to one in Beijing’s traffic. That the bicycle is still the main form of transportation there.”

    Egads – thats a built-in 24/7 critical mass.

    Dana (b4a26c)

  59. This quote is getting tired and old JD:

    “Look! Over there! Something shiny.”

    Especially since Dems are not the only ones who do that.

    Ummmm……. so your thread makes sense and mine doesn’t.

    Wow dude, reality check is in order.

    Oiram (983921)

  60. Hey Oiram…

    Where’s my God Damn quote, jackass?
    Were. Is. My. Quote.

    Produce, or feck off.

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  61. “China’s substantial environmental problems have been well – documented, and they were warned repeatedly to clean up their putrid air before the Olympics started.”

    Dmac – that is precisely why the dumbclucks at the IOC should have rewarded Bejing after they had evidenced a fulfillment of the agreement – not before.

    (whoever heard of giving their kids a cookie before they cleaned their rooms?)

    Dana (b4a26c)

  62. (whoever heard of giving their kids a cookie before they cleaned their rooms?)

    The parents of fat kids with messy rooms?

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  63. LN Smithee, to be fair, Nixon’s liberalism would be unwelcome in the contemporary Republican party, just as Truman’s conservatism would be unwelcome in the contemporary Democratic party.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  64. Especially since Dems are not the only ones who do that.

    You, Oiram, and afall, are the only ones doing it here.

    JD (712926)

  65. It might have been “better” had the cyclists chosen white masks but then what would have been said as the masks quickly turned black? China is now The Progressive Homeland (sorry Rodina), I’m sure that many here will find hours of enjoyment watching the walls of the Potemkin Village in Beijing collapse.

    Sort of like the walls of a modern Chinese school in a light earthquake.

    Remember – nothing in the world kills like progessivism.

    Rick Ballard (0a8990)

  66. aphrael – Nixon is far from the ideologue that he is often portrayed.

    Could you, aphrael, please teach a course on how to disagree without being an a-hole? Granted, I need that course, but those that claim your ideological lineage sure are an annoying lot, at least the ones that come ’round here.

    JD (712926)

  67. Could you, aphrael, please teach a course on how to disagree without being an a-hole?

    Seconded.

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  68. According to this article there are ten million bicycles in Beijing.

    nk (e38352)

  69. “I’m sure that many here will find hours of enjoyment watching the walls of the Potemkin Village in Beijing collapse.”

    This is the saddest bit of it all – how many will suffer because they didn’t have the smog sufficiently reduced or didn’t make the weather behave or allowed black masks to shame them publicly? There will be a price to pay for every imperfection and every misstep no matter if there was no controlling it. If it gave opportunity to be shamed publicly, then someone will pay. But only after the west has left the building.

    Dana (b4a26c)

  70. The biggest source of air pollution in China is the burning of coal for electricity, but without the use of any modern pollution control/scrubbing technology. And they are building a new plant each month as the electrify more and more of the country.

    WLS (26b1e5)

  71. JD: in many respects I think Nixon was the last liberal president of the US; in retrospect, on a lot of issues his administration marked the high water mark of liberalism.

    But these things seem to come and go in waves, and it’s possible the era of conservativism is about to ebb.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  72. Dana,

    No sadder than a cougar killing a fawn. Progressives – whether Chicoms or helpful Planned Parent ‘advisors’ spend their time doing their very best to diminish the world’s population of those whom they consider to be unfit or expendable for the greater good. The world’s population of those whom progressives define as unfit is so great that sometimes they have to resort to indiscriminate wholesale slaughter (see ‘DDT’ or ‘genetically modified food’) rather than their preferred method of more closely targeting those whom they consider deficient.

    Rick Ballard (0a8990)

  73. Rick Ballard, it strikes me as being an enormous stretch to allege that those who opposed the use of DDT (largely because of its effects on the bird population) and who oppose the use of genetically modified food (largely because of uncertainty about its long-term effects) have chosen to oppose the use of these technologies because they wish to reduce the population of humans, let alone because they wish to diminish the population of those particular humans whom they dislike.

    I would note that you haven’t established that failing to use either technology would result in “indiscriminate wholesale slaughter” of human beings. Nor have you established that the people who oppose the technologies believe that failure to use the technologies would result in “indiscriminate wholesale slaughter”, which would be necessary to demonstrate that they have intent to slaughter.

    Unless you can establish these, it seems to me that you’re doing nothing more than mischaracterizing the position of those with whom you disagree, in the expectation that people will believe your characterization and that it will reflect poorly upon your opponents.

    My understanding of the opposition to both DDT and GM foods is that the worst you could say about the majority of opponents of these technologies is that they are indifferent to the effect that bans would have on human populations (not that they actively seek the death of humans). And it’s not even clear that they are indifferent.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  74. My response to Scott: Comment #59

    Here is your quote: (I saw it)

    “Oiram…

    Here is a quote as to WHY they wore the masks…

    At a test event last year, smog covered the city and even seeped into the velodrome. Several of the track cyclists came down with upper respiratory infections.

    Comment by Scott Jacobs — 8/6/2008 @ 1:54 pm”

    This was my response:

    #32

    Sorry Scott. I just read it.

    But still, I don’t see anything wrong with apologizing to a country after wearing the masks in their airport.

    Comment by Oiram — 8/6/2008 @ 2:23 pm

    Now Scott quit wasting my time with insults and idiotic accusations.

    “Feck” Just how old are you?

    Oiram (983921)

  75. “Something changed, and I know it [had] nothing to do with big corporations. That’s all.” Comment by Oiram at #52

    No that’s not all.

    The state of California began the agenda to control auto pollution long before the feds got a whiff of smog. The history of LA automobile air pollution has the complexity that it was a high octane aviation fuel made by refineries constructed during the war (WWII) to make high performance aviation fuel and not to choke the LA population or poison with lead LA’s ethnic minorities. The type of fuel and the 1950’s auto engine was a result of a national emergency that the corporations responded to very well and not to some nefarious scheme to asphyxiate their peacetime customers. The State of California, and its bureaucrats as well, made their own technical mistakes by concentrating predominately on NOX2 rather than other, just as poisonous, components of photo-chemical smog. MTBE wasn’t CA’s first mistake. It won’t be the governments last.

    Big government, just as big business, is just as prone to make big mistakes and for the same big reasons. I know of three in particular, but they are not this threads topic.

    C. Norris (02ce8d)

  76. aphrael wrote: LN Smithee, to be fair, Nixon’s liberalism would be unwelcome in the contemporary Republican party, just as Truman’s conservatism would be unwelcome in the contemporary Democratic party.

    True. But we’re not pro-rating the politics. The POTUS the libs were likening to Hitler back then is the same guy who created the EPA.

    BTW, I realized shortly after hitting “Submit Comment” that I misspelled the name of the agency. It’s “Environmental,” not “Environment.”

    L.N. Smithee (0931d2)

  77. “Feck” Just how old are you?

    Comment by Oiram — 8/6/2008 @ 3:59 pm

    Sorry to cut in here, but couldn’t help thinking: “Apparently mature enough to be considerate of any other adults here who might prefer seeing ‘feck’ to the alternative (thanks Scott).”

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  78. aphrael,

    The original correlation to shell thinning for pheasant and quail was disproven. DDT does affect the shells of raptors but as the link notes:

    “Banning DDT saved thousands of raptors over the past 30 years, but outright bans and misguided fears about the pesticide cost the lives of millions of people who died of insect-borne diseases like malaria. The 500 million people who come down with malaria every year might well wonder what authoritarian made that decision.”

    Further explication on “millions” here.

    I have absolutely no interest in what the Luddites opposing GM believe but I do acknowledge their indifference to the human cost of their beliefs. Indeed, I shall be more careful in the future to stress that indifference to wholesale slaughter is a far better hallmark of the true progressive than simple malice (Margaret Sanger and Woodrow Wilson notwithstanding). It may be mere happenstance that the vast majority of those killed were black, brown, yellow and/or poor.

    Rick Ballard (0a8990)

  79. Reply to #74

    Growth in smokestack industries during World War II led to “gas attacks” and “daylight dim-outs.” Clouds of dust, smoke and fumes choked residents. Organized efforts to cut smog began 61 years ago in 1947 when Los Angeles County formed the nation’s first air pollution control agency. New regulations required major industries to get air pollution permits and install smog controls.

    Chuck, you keep sticking to your right wing leaning sites if you like, and keep on expecting all corporations to do the right thing without regulation. Hope you get to keep your lungs.

    Oiram (983921)

  80. Response to #76 (no one you know)

    So calling me a jack*%$

    is mature enough for you?

    O.k. Here is Scott’s quote:

    #59
    Hey Oiram…

    Where’s my God Damn quote, jackass?
    Were. Is. My. Quote.

    Produce, or feck off.

    Oiram (983921)

  81. “Feck” Just how old are you?

    “feck” bothers you? Fine…

    Just how fucking stupid do you think I or the others here are, asshole?
    Your comment at #20 said, in regards to our “behavior” when the Muslims prayed on a plane:

    But I know how you and a lot of people did feel when they did that.

    You directly fucking insulted me, and I challenged you to PROVE you know how I reacted, what I thought or said.

    You have yet to do so, and are acting like Levi.

    You directly insulted me after I had tried VERY hard to be civil to you.

    Fuck that noise now.

    Either show a quote (with a link) proving “what you know” about my reaction, or go fuck yourself.

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  82. Where did I offend Scott?

    Please quote me, and show me your quote that you demanded like a little baby.

    The only noise is the noise I hear from a foul mouth who thinks he can feck his way out of a box.

    Oiram (983921)

  83. As a pre-teen, the first significant step I remember in the battle against smog was the banning of back-yard incinerators in about 1953/54. That, plus the cut-back in use of smudge-pots in the citrus industry (when we actually did grow citrus in Orange Co.- and other parts of SoCal) at the same time.
    About 1958/59, CA passed its’ first smog-control regs for mobile sources (cars, etc), requiring closed crank-case systems to be introduced in the early 60’s. First new car we had to be affected was a ’66 Pontiac.

    Another Drew (071b91)

  84. By the way Scott, I don’t think anyone here is stupid, cept for you now.

    I spend time here because I figured you and all others would appreciate a debate.

    I’ve said it before, I found it useless to hang out at left leaning sites. I don’t think anything can be accomplished by preaching to my choir as they say.

    Oiram (983921)

  85. Oiram – Scott is right, and is being kinder than you deserve about now.

    JD (5f0e11)

  86. Comment by Oiram — 8/6/2008 @ 4:27 pm

    *heavy sigh*
    that is the first and last time I’ll evah cut in on an argument. But you addressed me and I won’t be rude by not answering:

    Whether or not I would or would not use any of the other words in Scott’s post, it just struck me that your attacking his maturity for selecting an alternative for one of his strong words seemed a bit ironic. Will get out of the way now…

    Especially since, as we both see, Scott is quite capable of defending himself.

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  87. Please quote me, and show me your quote that you demanded like a little baby.

    You god damn moron…

    Here is the insult you paid me:

    I know we didn’t ask for one Scott.

    But I know how you and a lot of people did feel when they did that.

    I’m just simply asking how you would of felt if they did apologize?

    Please don’t insult my intelligence by saying you wouldn’t of cared.

    I’ve paid way too much attention JD.

    That was comment #20 in this thread.

    I challenged you to show me a quote from ANY site to back up your accusation.

    ENGLISH, motherfucker… Do you speak it?

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  88. Patterico already put two commenters on “moderate” earlier today for an inability to control their language. THat’s not a ban, it just means your posts don’t appear until someone with moderation privileges authorizes them. It sort of prevents running dialogues of personal insults like those that have taken over this thread.

    So knock it off, or a couple more of you will find yourselves in the penalty box.

    WLS (26b1e5)

  89. LOL JD.

    If you want me kicked out, please request it. But note that you will only be feeding the misconceptions of what right wingers are all about.

    I have apologized to Scott for not reading one of his quotes, cut and pasted him back the same quote and put up with countless foul mouthed words.
    I have plenty of respect for everyone here, but he went over the line.

    Oiram (983921)

  90. Children, children, children.
    You know Daddy wants us to play nice.

    Another Drew (071b91)

  91. Thank you WLS, I will try to stay on topic from here on out.

    Oiram (983921)

  92. Scott, this certainly doesn’t justify comments about your views on the subject, but I think the hypothetical Oiram is posing is somewhat close in spirit to English First’s objection to a company’s voluntary agreement with a union to provide Eid-al-fitr as a paid holiday.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  93. Oiram – There you go being a willfully obtuse troll again. WLS did not threaten to ban you, nor did anyone call for same. Just because you have a preconception, or in this case, a misconception, does not make it so.

    You directed that comment where you knew you people felt, #20, to Scott, by name. He called you on it. Man up.

    JD (5f0e11)

  94. True, aphrael…

    But Oiram was speaking to me specificly, and others generally.

    I was PERSONALLY targeted, and I demand either he prove his insult, or go the hell away.

    I will NOT be insulted by the likes of it.

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  95. Sorry I offended Scott. I actually know what it’s like, because I’ve seen the same done to me here repeatedly. Not by everyone though.

    I will refrain from assuming too much when it comes to political beliefs.

    Peace Brothers.

    Oiram (983921)

  96. WLS – How did Peter Peter avoid moderation after that spittle flecked profanity tirade the other night? LOL

    JD (5f0e11)

  97. Good on you, Oiram.

    JD (5f0e11)

  98. Rick Ballard, you say: I have absolutely no interest in what the Luddites opposing GM believe.

    I think it’s more than a bit unfair to cast aspersions on someone’s motives, as you did in comment #71 when you said “Progressives … spend their time doing their very best to diminish the world’s population of those whom they consider to be unfit or expendable for the greater good,” and yet at the same time declaim any interest in their beliefs. Beliefs influence motives, and to characterize one without bothering to understand the other is unfair. :)

    It’s perfectly fair to say that progressives support policies which have the effect of causing human death; it’s something different altogether to imply that progressives desire that effect.

    Here’s an analogy: many progressives believe that global warming will result in large numbers of human deaths, most of which will be concentrated among the third world poor. Yet it would be offensive of them to argue “conservatives spend their time doing their very best to ensure the deaths of the third world poor”, using as justification for this claim the fact that many conservatives either don’t believe in global warming caused by human action or oppose state policies to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Even coming from someone who believes that the conservative position on the issue will have that result, phrasing the statement in such a way as to present the effect as the desired aim is offensive.

    ———-

    The use of genetically-modified food is a calculated risk: the foods can confer some benefit, but they also bring about some risk. (This is not unique to genetically modified food; the use of just about any new technology has aspects of benefit and risk). I’m not sufficiently versed in the technology to understand the risks, so I have no strong opinion on whether they should be used or not; but it seems to me that (a) many proponents of GM foods don’t understand the risks either, and are allowing their political preferences (and dislike of GM opponents) to take precedence over rational assessment; (b) many opponents of GM foods don’t understand the risks and are allowing their political preferences (and dislike of corporations) to take precedence over rational assessment; and (c) this is the kind of thing which the public in a democratic state ought to be allowed to decide.

    As for DDT: it seems to me that you are equating “opposing technology [x] which could save people from illness [y]” with “slaughtering people with illness [y]”. It’s a nice rhetorical trick, but it’s also a bit hyperbolic.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  99. WLS – How did Peter Peter avoid moderation after that spittle flecked profanity tirade the other night? LOL

    Comment by JD — 8/6/2008 @ 5:05 pm

    I don’t think he did.

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  100. Oiram: thank you for apologizing to Scott. :)

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  101. JD,
    link

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  102. It’s a nice rhetorical trick, but it’s also a bit hyperbolic.

    Comment by aphrael — 8/6/2008 @ 5:11 pm

    Thank you. I might have chosen “polemical” but hyperbolic works.

    Thank you for the courtesy explicit in your reply – I’ll endeavor to return the gesture at every opportunity. I’ve been to China, been to factories which use slave labor to achieve that wonderfully overstated “Chinese boom”. It is simply impossible for me to wish for anything but a prompt demise for slavers – no matter how progressive they are.

    Rick Ballard (0a8990)

  103. aprael – does this mean you renounce all the invective aimed at W for his execution of the global war on terror? “Bush lied, people died?” Is this going too far? Did W ever mean to target innocents and to cause unnecessary death and destruction?

    I happen to agree that at the time of the DDT ban, those who insisted on the ban did so with clean hearts – not knowing the actual and minimal derogatory effects of DDT, and not really accepting/believing the warnings that millions of humans would die of malaria as a consequence.

    Today? These self-satisfied and righteous greenies are absolutely culpable in an astronomical number of preventable human deaths. So long as the DDT ban exists, or such time as an effective anti-malaria process can be implemented, there is much blood on their organic soap stained hands.

    Ed (841b4a)

  104. JD — Peter was benched this morning.

    WLS (26b1e5)

  105. WLS – Not at all surprising. You have had some great posts the last few days. I like it when you get all energized.

    JD (712926)

  106. Oh, they’re probably trying to psych out their competitors–or maybe they’re afraid the Chinese will lace their food with anti-freeze.

    No, wait, they just do that to pet food, right?

    Patricia (f56a97)

  107. In my alcohol-befuddled memory, the Olympics brought two cities into the twentieth century — Barcelona and Athens. They may yet do that for Beijing.

    nk (e38352)

  108. People do recall the reaction of Luddite environmental groups like Greenpeace to the development of a genetically modified rice designed to prevent blindness in children by increasing its beta-carotene content?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  109. I believe they had kittens, yes?

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  110. I don’t see why anyone had to apologize. When traveling to Thailand I often spotted passengers wearing hospital-type masks around the airport and on the plane. People are germy, and if the air is that terrible I don’t get why this is a big deal.

    Tlove (953364)

  111. Hell, the Chinese wear surgical masks around their cities…

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  112. Tlove !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    JD (712926)

  113. Surgical masks. That’s what they’re called. It’s been a long day!

    Tlove (953364)

  114. I used to work with a guy that wore a surgical mask in the office. He had some germ phobia. He was kind of odd.

    JD (712926)

  115. Apart from the fact that the Chinese are very sensitive about these Games, the masks evoke memories of the 2004 SARS outbreak – especially since there were cases in Beijing. I’m sure the Chinese don’t want to remind people of SARS or do anything to suggest it’s making a comeback.

    DRJ (9d1be2)

  116. That Chinese air is pretty gross. I was watching something on BBC about it. It really does look like fog, but isn’t.

    Tlove (953364)

  117. My subdivision has a beautiful fog in the mornings. Pea soup kind of fog. But not the kind that requires surgical masks.

    The morning fog in Monterey is something that I really miss.

    JD (712926)

  118. I kind of miss seeing the fog roll in over the Golden Gate Bridge. That was a crazy little sight for me.

    Tlove (953364)

  119. I donate to Greenpeace.

    Tlove (953364)

  120. Ed, I believe that if you look, you’ll find that I haven’t engaged in that kind of rhetoric, and that I have on this site several times regaled liberals for doing so.

    I think it’s absurd to argue that President Bush intended to target innocents and cause death and destruction he believed were unnecessary. However, it is fair game to argue that the policies he has pursued has had those results, just as it was fair to oppose that policy in 2003 on the grounds that it would have those results.

    aphrael (12fba5)

  121. In war, death and destruction rain down on innocents as “collateral damage” in the pursuit of combattants. It has always been so, and it will always be. The encouraging news is that it is a lessor and lessor factor in war as technology has advanced, enagbling combattants to more precisely target their advisaries.
    To not pursue policies that lead to the defeat of the enemy, is to acceed to that enemy the battlefield, and the conflict.
    Every now and then, even saints have to get their robes dirty.

    Another Drew (071b91)

  122. Suffering from “fat finger syndrome”.
    …”enagbling”….Arghhhh!

    …enabling…

    Another Drew (071b91)

  123. JD — I’ve had a little more time than usual, so I’ve found some things that interest me.

    But I’m on the road starting tomorrow for about 10 days sans computer at the insistence of my family. So, I’m out of here in about 12 hours.

    WLS (4ab682)

  124. You’ve done a yeoman’s job recently, WLS. Have a good trip.

    DRJ (9d1be2)

  125. TLove…
    Sorry that I am boring you…

    WLS…
    Drive safely…Watch out for busses.

    Another Drew (071b91)

  126. Drew, you’re not boring. I’m just tired. This whole unemployed thing is really tiring me!

    Tlove (953364)

  127. WLS – Have a great vacation.

    TLove – Take advantage of, and enjoy, your free time.

    JD (5f0e11)

  128. Japanese air travelers are prone to using eucalyptus soaked hankerchiefs to breathe through due to the crappy air on planes. Seriously, how many of us have developed upper respiratory woes from stale cabin air laden with pathogens?

    WLS will be missed. So many initialled monikers, so few clues to people. At least we know who Mr. Fry is, er Frie, er Frey. ..ooops I have to check the LA Times.

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  129. WLS will be missed.

    Ditto – have a nice vacation.

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  130. Japanese air travelers are prone to using eucalyptus soaked hankerchiefs to breathe through due to the crappy air on planes.

    That is a brilliant idea…

    Scott Jacobs (425810)

  131. Yeah, have a good vacation, WLS… Lucky bugger…

    Scott Jacobs (425810)

  132. Hey Oiram,

    How about it some Christians prayed on a saudia or iranian plane, of course they will only do it once, since it would bring a possible death sentence from the religion of peace whose founder had relations with a 9 year old

    scot (e6489c)

  133. I have a friend that has made 7 trips to China, and she said you can actually taste the smog in Beijing. I’d say that’s pretty bad.

    that other JD (ed5675)


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