Patterico's Pontifications

7/28/2008

Obama Mirrors McCain on Iraq

Filed under: 2008 Election — DRJ @ 12:09 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

Barack Obama wants to bring unity to America and it seems he’s had his first success, although it’s not what I expected. According to this Hot Air article, Obama’s Iraq policy is now almost the mirror image of McCain’s:

“McCain thinks troop levels should depend on conditions but concedes that 16 months is a “pretty good timetable” whereas Obama thinks 16 months is a pretty good timetable but concedes that, er, troop levels should depend on conditions. Nuance.”

A part of Obama’s win over Hillary Clinton was the difference in their positions on Iraq so watching Obama shift like this on Iraq has to make her mad.

Obama is taking GOP issues and moving as close to them as he can – in words if not in deed – before the general election. He waffled on his support for the DC gun ban and corporate tax increases. He backtracked on his pledge to filibuster telecom immunity in the FISA bill. He said that mental distress should not be a valid basis for a late-term abortion. He even hinted that needs-based aid might be preferable to affirmative action with applicants like his own daughters. In sum, he’s triangulating.

I don’t know who hates this more: Liberals, conservatives, or the Clintons.

— DRJ

127 Responses to “Obama Mirrors McCain on Iraq”

  1. I wouldn’t assume that “conditions” means the same for both candidates. They might be 180 degrees different since Obama probably means pull the troops out quicker as conditions get worse. Hasn’t that been the left’s position since the war began?

    j curtis (c84b9e)

  2. Quite a victory of the trip abroad. The two sides have gone from extremes of supposedly 100 years vs. surrender, to both agreeing to 16 months with conditions, all with Maliki agreeing.

    afall (5bea53)

  3. Except, things have gotten better, not worse.

    Another Drew (a28ef4)

  4. McCain’s gone from “100 years is fine”, to “no timetable” to “timetable” to “I never said ‘timetable’ ”
    and on and on.
    McCain flip-flops and now it’s O’bambam’s fault.

    And McCain had spoken out against to troop increases in Afghanistan again and again until…

    oh never mind.

    JAR (08d0b1)

  5. They might be 180 degrees different since Obama probably means pull the troops out quicker as conditions get worse. Hasn’t that been the left’s position since the war began?

    But with conditions improving dramaticly, why would they then continue to hold to that idea?

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  6. Read the link, liberal commenters. Obama may keep as many as 12 brigades in Iraq:

    “According to a recent essay by Colin Kahl, who runs Obama’s working group on Iraq, in the “near term” they might keep as many as 12 brigades there for “overwatch,” i.e. support, duties.”

    A brigade can have anywhere from 3,000 to 7,000 troops each.

    DRJ (de3993)

  7. As long as everyone hates this and him, it doesn’t matter. More faster please!

    Peg C. (48175e)

  8. Yup.
    Obomba may leave up to 100,000. That’s what makes this whole thing a joke. And why I’m so much farther to the left than the liberals you call “leftists.”
    And so many of them think that’s what they are too!
    “Clinton was a leftist!”

    No sense of history at all.

    JAR (08d0b1)

  9. “Obomba may leave up to 100,000″

    I think he said he’d be as careful getting out as we were careless going in. I never imagined this to be surrender or unconditional withdrawal.

    afall (20f608)

  10. On this, JAR, we can well agree…

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  11. But DRJ, didnt he promise to “fine tune” his position on Iraq when he visits the place? Surely you expected a little shift in position after going there and seeing things for himself. Why are we surprised? He is showing that he is not a bigot who doesnt adjust to changes. Even McCain has done some tweaking of his own, recently. The more things “Change” the more they look alike.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  12. 5

    I remember John Kerry arguing exactly 4 years ago during the campaign that we needed to pull out immediately because terrorists were beheading people and putting it on the internet. Am I to now believe that the Democrats will pull out slower if the jihadis start up their internet murders again soon after Obama is elected? If they step up the attacks and kill more US troops we pull out slower than we would otherwise? No Democrat is going to take that position.

    I think Obama has ’em all covered. Whatever the conditions, those will be the conditions he meant if he doesn’t need to specify beforehand.

    j curtis (c84b9e)

  13. And therein lies the exact problem, j curtis…

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  14. The lefties butt holes are eating holes in their panties. Hussein O ‘will’ leave 40-60,000 American troops is Iraq for as long as required. Could that be a hundred years? We’ve been in Europe and Japan over 60 years and show no sign of leaving. Hussein O votes ‘here’ to avoid making a decision, but as it is his habit, he tags his name on other peoples decisions.

    BHO=GWB lite BWAHAHAHAHAHA

    Scrapiron (d671ab)

  15. You mean McCain is beginning to mirror Obama’s policies.

    Obama wanted a timetable, McCain did not. Obama wanted more troops in Afganistan, McCain did not.

    Funny how McCain tries to make it sound like he was the first when he actually is following Obama’s lead.

    politicaljunkie (b03848)

  16. Why do the trolls insist on aggressively lying?

    JD (5f0e11)

  17. McCain is a total liar… On CNN tonight I heard him accuse Obama of not going to see the wounded troops because “he could not take the presscore and cameras with him”. What a bunch of bull crap. I think that melanoma has gone to your head! I think that was five Penocchio comment.

    Clint H (43acd1)

  18. mccain would be a total failure as a president,
    1 at present he holds no consstent stated position ( or often misstated many ways ) position on iraq- from 1000 years ( sorry 100 years, but i digress – whats a zero or two when dealing with neolithic neocons anyway, or for that matter a couple of a hundred billion here or there; its not like bush or his protege mccain will be around to pay the bill in the years to come) to 16 months – all in the time frame it took obama to go from 16 months to .. let me see oh, yea, 16 months.

    2 he just doesnt get the economy , period.

    3 anybody who thinks we can drill our way out of this mess that those same bushie neolithic neo cons got us into in the firstplace exhibits the same myopic, superficial understanding it takes to believe in the tooth faliry

    4 hes just too old, and youcant tach an old dog new tricks

    5 havent we had enough of these kleptrocrats already – are you serious 500 billion dollar deficit- 1500 dollars for each man, woman, and child in this great land? i guess youd need a harvard mba like w to figure out how to send 500 billion in a year and not get anything in return.

    6 he got us into this war and had no plans for getting out – infact he still doesnt because – the conditions ” dont ” or likely telegraphed, “wont merit it”

    7 hes resorting to the same tired, old playbook of republican scare tactics, innuendo, and subterfege instead of real solutions for the future – oh yea hes not going to be around much longer given his age and the normaol life expectancy so his policies wont really affect him, and isnt that the bolltom line with all these guys anyway?

    god bless america

    oss (a7dfe8)

  19. “failure as pres…”?
    1. The only misstating of McCains consistent positions is coming from leftie loonies.
    2. Watch it, oss. The economy will do fine as long as the tax cuts become permanent. If the housing market hadn’t been clobbered by liberals forcing new rules to allow anyone with a pseudo-income to get a whopper of a mortgage, we’d still be cruising now. Consumer confidence is in the cellar because of high energy prices and a liberal press wanting us to be in a recession (Kinda like the leftie loonies wanting the terrorists to win in Iraq for political gain).
    3. Domestic production of oil continues to fall as active reserves are depleted and new fields are kept off limits. If we don’t drill in ANWR soon, there won’t be enough oil produced in Alaska to keep the Alaskan pipeline open. Meanwhile, the 20% increase in domestic production that could be realized in ANWR goes untouched because we don’t need it? The only people talking about not “drilling our way out of this mess” are the leftie loonies that got the talking points memo from the Dems. Only an idiot would say don’t swim because there’s too much water out there. We can’t “drill our way out”, but if we don’t we only have ourselves to blame when we sink.
    4. Ever heard the saying “young, dumb, and full of cum”? That’s where your boy Obama’s at. He’ll say or do anything to get what he wants (Basically, this nation in the dumps).
    5. Last time I checked, the leftie loonies and there dumb Dems were in control of the purse strings. By the way, any time the economy slows, revenues decrease. Neither the Republicans nor Democrats seem to get it. If you live on the edge, you’ll fall off when the ground shakes.
    6. The war is nearly over. Somehow that’s become a winner for Obama. When lies become truth and truth lies or when right becomes wrong and wrong becomes right, you sure better be hoping God will bless America, because the end is near.
    7. Sounds like “innuendo” to me.

    Bushax (de5274)

  20. I love how the Obama supporters keep trying to follow their “messiah” and turn everything into his idea and his doing.

    As McCain has clearly and consistently stated for years- we’ll leave Iraq when the conditions allow for it. Consequently, thanks to the troop surge and political conditions that have developed (in spite of the constant Democratic denials, doom and gloom and interference) things are getting better by the day and it makes sense to start looking at withdrawal plans. Bush, Malaki and McCain have consistently said the same things over and over again.

    We’re it not for Obama trying to falsely claim ownership for everything from the creating of the Earth to Senate Banking Committees and for the ridiculous and biased media coverage; the obvious would be clear.

    Obama has gone from opposing the surge and wanting all troops out last March to saying that we would leave troops around the embassy to leaving an undefined residual force to combat terrorists. I would complement him on finally seeing reason if he didn’t continue to insist that his mind hasn’t changed and he wants all the troops out, regardless of what the generals tell him.

    What is truly amazing is that the Dems/ Libs biggest complaint for 8 years has been that George Bush acts unilaterally and without assistance or consultation from anyone. Yet the same people now support Obama who refuses to listen to generals, makes policy before getting facts and stands on it in spite of them, is bent on invading Pakistan if he think it’s a good idea and in spite of their interests and all the while has far less experience that George Bush did.

    Frank (4cf33e)

  21. There’s nothing NEW OR NOTEWORTHY to cover with John McCain…we’ve seen it all already–played out before us in the last seven and half tragic years by George Bush.

    The man isn’t substantive–he’s a POW who survived because his dad was an Admiral, a man who better-dealed the wife who waited for him, a man responsible for the FIRST big banking crisis in this country, the S&L bailout, a man who’s an oil industry parrot thick on using lobbyists to plot his moves, a man who admits to little economic knowledge, a man who staunchly supported the worst foreign policy decision in US history–the Iraq war.

    The man we see today is a pale GHOST of the man who was running in 2000. He has become the mirror of GWB on almost all major policies–MAJOR POLICIES THAT HAVE FAILED THIS NATION.

    John McCain: For the war (our biggest foreign policy mistake ever) and for CONTINUING this war until “victory”–even though he himself cannot DEFINE what that victory is…He’s against ANYTHING resembling negotiation and diplomacy, was AGAINST the Bush tax cuts in a time of war…but is now for them…was AGAINST offshore drilling…but is now FOR it…was AGAINST agents of intolerance like Rev. Hagy or Parsley but now seeks their endorsements…and promises an end to pork-barrel spending while his campaign is RUN by special interest Lobbyists–two of whom were directly responsible for the mortgage crisis that we’re still suffering from as a nation.

    America: Wake UP! This isn’t Maverick John McCain! This is George W. Bush…on Steroids. He’s a fake, a phony, and a dangerously single-minded, stubborn man. Haven’t you LEARNED anything these last 7 years?

    Even a stupid horse throws off the blinders eventually. When is it your turn to do the same?

    Danielson (d1460c)

  22. WLS sure lured the trolls in with this post. Aggressive ignorance and flat-out lying is their SOP.

    JD (5f0e11)

  23. Blame it on Sphere, folks. LOL!

    Curious, though….

    What part about McCain being a better-dealing wife dropper, favored son of an Admiral, 30 year politician with inextricable ties to both special interests and the worst bank bailout of the century (20th Century) while flip-flopping his way through the 2008 Presidential election on taxes, drilling, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan “helping” the troops and his knowledge of the economy and the mortage meltdown….

    is either ignorance or a lie?

    Danielson (d1460c)

  24. I don’t know how McCain supporters can turn this into Obama moving his policies and McCain not doing this flip flop for political gain.

    If you were watching (hey I was watching up here in Canada and it was pretty clear to me) the Democratic nominations, in almost every debate Obama said three things:

    Firstly he would say I voted against the Iraq war (Of course). Secondly he would say the US has to pullout troops and he would do so within 16 months of getting into office. Thirdly he would mention the US should be as careful getting out, as they were careless going in (seriously no one remembers that line? He said it a million times).

    McCain not only attacked him for his timeline, he rediculed Obama for it. I guess things change when you notice that most of the american public is against the war (for better or worse) and the Iraqis agree with Obama’s timetable publicly multiple times.

    It’s pretty obvious to me that the Bush administration and McCain are using the Democratic strategy (which usually fails) to move close to their opponents views to make it a more personal fight rather than a policy one.

    Don’t get me wrong I like both candidates, I just think McCains playing politics these days in a really idiotic way. Only way he will get away with it is if the media ignores his flip flop and people who aren’t paying attention relate the 16 month pullout plan as McCain’s idea.

    Blake (f911a7)

  25. “Iraqis agree with Obama’s timetable publicly multiple times.”

    Blake – Could you give me the citations where the Iraqis agree with Obama that the troops have to be out in 16 months no matter what, including what the commanders on the ground say please?

    It seems Obama’s 16 month timetable was ass pulled before talking to any commanders on the ground and now has evolved to McCain’s consistent conditions based formulation. The only reason that a time horizon is now able to be discussed is due to the success of the surge which Obama opposed. Remember boys and girls of the left, he didn’t give a shit if our withdrawal caused genocide to erupt in Iraq. Facts are a terrible thing for you morons to keep ignoring.

    daleyrocks (24dba4)

  26. “3 anybody who thinks we can drill our way out of this mess that those same bushie neolithic neo cons got us into in the firstplace exhibits the same myopic, superficial understanding it takes to believe in the tooth faliry”
    I use BIIIIIIIG!!!! words! I bust out the thesaurus to help me say absolutely nothing but make it sound like my vocabulary is immense. I throw an occasional, marginally clever alliteration, I’m drenched in irony by decrying superficiality, and (drum roll please) I’ll be voting for Obama! “Bushie Neolithic Neocons” OOOOF! That side-splitter will really leave a mark!!

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  27. Yeah…that’s what I thought.

    Danielson (d1460c)

  28. What part about McCain being a better-dealing wife dropper, favored son of an Admiral, 30 year politician with inextricable ties to both special interests and the worst bank bailout of the century (20th Century) while flip-flopping his way through the 2008 Presidential election on taxes, drilling, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan “helping” the troops and his knowledge of the economy and the mortage meltdown….

    Danielson – What part of your turd drop contains anything new or truthful?

    better-dealing wife dropper – Happened 30 years ago. Anything new here. His ex thinks highly of him.

    favored son of an Admiral – He turned down early release as a POW. What do you mean by this statement?

    30 year politician with inextricable ties to both special interests – Yes, he is significantly more experienced than Obama. Thank you for pointing it out. Can you elaborate on your fantasies of special interests please, with appropriate citations, please?

    worst bank bailout of the century (20th Century) – As the only Republican involved, he was cleared, asswipe, if you are talking about Lincoln Savings.

    2008 Presidential election on taxes – Could you enumerate his flip flops on taxes please?

    On Iraq, he hasn’t flip flopped. On Afghanistan, guess what, there are more jihadis there now. Guess where they came from moron and why.

    McCain’s knowledge of the economy and the mortgage meltdown far surpasses Obama the clueless, who wants to tax and spend our way to greatness.

    Danielson, do you have to have a license to be as stupid as you appear?

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  29. “….he didn’t give a shit if our withdrawal caused genocide to erupt in Iraq. Facts are a terrible thing for you morons to keep ignoring…”

    However he DID give a shit that we shouldn’t have gone there in the first place…you can talk SURGE success all you like…the abject failure of this policy remains–a policy that has now been irrefutably proven to be built on an entire house of cards, lies and score-settling Agendas set forth long before GW even took office.

    You say there is no timetable without the SURGE (debatable, at least)…I say there is no SURGE, no lost 4000+ American lives, no trillion in lost treasure, no thousands upon thousands of injured troops and dead innocent civilians and no great impression globally that the United States is acting like the “Great Satan” that all those textbooks SAY we are…without the misbegotten rush to war propogated by this administration and supported vigorously by John “we’ll be out of there in a few months and be greeted as liberators” McCain.

    Obama’s prediction turned out to be right–and perhaps the SURGE did help it come to fruition. Fact of the matter is John McCain still sees nothing wrong with going to war on a bed of lies…and that is something this nation simply cannot afford. Again.

    Danielson (d1460c)

  30. daleyrocks – It did not use any grey matter to come up with that. It was a copy and paste job from some Baracky website.

    JD (75f5c3)

  31. policy that has now been irrefutably proven to be built on an entire house of cards, lies and score-settling Agendas set forth long before GW even took office.

    Citation, please.

    I say there is no SURGE, no lost 4000+ American lives, no trillion in lost treasure, no thousands upon thousands of injured troops and dead innocent civilians and no great impression globally that the United States is acting like the “Great Satan” that all those textbooks SAY we are…

    And what would the opportunity cost being of not acting when we did. That was a good rant, by the way. Well done. ALL CAPS, Great Satan, good stuff.

    What did Baracky get right? I suppose that of his 978 positions, that he claims to have not changed, he was bound to be right about something. So far, there is no evidence of that. Are you referring to his claim to want to listen to the Generals on the ground now, or the Philadelphia Baracky where he said he would proceed despite the Generals wishes?

    JD (75f5c3)

  32. Of course his ex thinks highly of him. Think of the alimony she rakes with plasticine Barbie kicking into the hush fund. And it’s a fact–McCain unceremoniously DUMPED his first wife for Barbie. No lie there. Read his own book!

    I’m saying McCain was allowed to LIVE when the bad guys discovered he was THAT John McCain–the Admiral’s son (check out the documentary on History channel–supported and currently being USED by McCain in his TV ads, by the way)–that indeed was the case…they used him for propoganda rather than let him die.

    Special interests…hmmm…do you even KNOW about the Keating Five? That incident alone would have been enough to end the careers of many a politican…no surprise that McCain, even then, leaned heavily on his POW sword to take a “rebuke”. He was NOT “cleared” as you assert. Look it up. It very nearly ended his career because he was PART of it.

    (Can’t prosecute the ole American Hero, now, can we?)

    Phil Graham’s been with John for decades…no, not talking about the whiner comment–though it’s nice to know all this economic strife is just in our heads…I’m talking about the banking legislation GRAHAM co-drafted that opened the door for LOTS of paper to be passed in the housing market–whether it was good or bad. And McCain’d ENTIRE senior campaign staff is comprised of Lobbyists. Would you like the link to his website for verification?

    2002,03,04,05…against the Bush tax cuts because you “don’t cut taxes in a time of war”…same man is now FOR making the EXACT same tax cuts PERMANENT.

    And for you to assert that the jihadists “came from Iraq” shows your complete lack of individual initiative to seek the truth….AL QUAEDA WASN’T IN IRAQ BEFORE WE WENT THERE…AND EVEN IN A DEFENSE DEPT. ESTIMATE…COMPRISED ONLY 2 PERCENT OF OUR OPPOSITION FORCE ONCE WE STARTED MUCKING ABOUT. You don’t KNOW what a jihadist is, do you?…it just makes you SOUND like you know.

    McCain’s top economic advisor helped push through legislation that CAUSED the crisis in the first place…how can you not be simply FOLLOWING the truth of these matters?

    By his own admission in a debate, McCain said the “economy isn’t my strong suit…but I have trusted advisors like Phil Graham…et. al. to support me and guide me.” OOOPS. That Phil Graham.

    All I’m really asking?

    Don’t take McCain at his word because he limps and says “my friends” alot. He’s filling the ether with empty promises of “country first”(while tripping over misstatement after misstatement that the press is comfortable ignoring–like not KNOWING when the ANBAR awakening actually happened…or knowing the difference between Sunni and Shia). All the while he’s promising to follow in lockstep with the policies that have largely PUT this country in the hole in the first place.

    How can you be so obtuse? Is my question.

    Danielson (d1460c)

  33. Danielson – More total bullshit. Is some college professor feeding you this crap or are you reading it directly off of a libtard website?

    “a policy that has now been irrefutably proven to be built on an entire house of cards, lies and score-settling Agendas set forth long before GW even took office.”

    Rightyo – Built on the failure of Sadaam to follow the terms of ceasefire from the First Gulf War, which the demonrats also didn’t support even though it followed the invasion of one of our closest allies in the region, and regime change in Iraq which also became official U.S. policy in 1998 under the magical mystey presidency of Blowjob Bill Clinton, who incidentally claimed, along with everyone else in his administration, and all the other major intelligence organizations in the world, that Sadaam did in fact have WMD. The AUMF was approved by bipartisan votes in Congress with no evidence by investigations after the fact with 20/20 hindsight to support any claims that people were lied to.

    Put that in your bong and smoke it fuckstick.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  34. Citation: Let’s see…the former white house press secretary Scott McClelland, Richard Clark, the internal torture memos, the National Intelligence Estimate that the White House decided to edit before presenting to congress…I’m sure there’s more…I’m just busy. Heh heh.

    If we didn’t act, Saddam Hussein’s still there, still just as unable to be a direct threat to us as he was for the 12 years leading up to it. He was not a “grave and gathering danger” and that’s been irrefutably proven. A bad guy, sure. But the world has no shortage of those…and we’re certainly not living in THEIR countries uninvited.

    Danielson (d1460c)

  35. daleyrocks…the paragon of blind republican virtue.

    Since we’ve accomplished “so much” by bullying a country that was absolutely NO threat to the United States…perhaps you should tell the families of 4000 plus needlessly dead soliders to put it in THEIR bongs and smoke it?

    Or how ’bout just limiting your communications to the 20 or so thousand troops with families who are now on the hook to provide round the clock care for needlessly injured troops? Should THEY put it in their bong?

    Or should our President get on his evangelical knees and do some good in that pose for the first time in his life…by begging the forgiveness of each irrevocably destroyed family he’s caused with his short-sighted, myopic vision to “finish what daddy started”.

    Danielson (d1460c)

  36. Danielson – You obciously have trouble interpreting history. I like the selective all caps too, that’s special.

    “Special interests…hmmm…do you even KNOW about the Keating Five?”

    Yes. What happened to McCain as a result of his involvement? Why don’t you spell it out big guy?

    “2002,03,04,05…against the Bush tax cuts because you “don’t cut taxes in a time of war”…same man is now FOR making the EXACT same tax cuts PERMANENT.”

    As are most republicans, because they worked and increased revenues to the treasury. Again, this is not news. Does Obama give reasons for changing his mind or rewriting the history of what he’s said last week or last year?

    “And McCain’d ENTIRE senior campaign staff is comprised of Lobbyists.”
    And your point here is what?

    How can you believe and spout such uninformed tripe is my question?

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  37. Obama’s prediction turned out to be right–and perhaps the SURGE did help it come to fruition.

    If Obama’s prediction had been correct, there wouldn’t have been a surge, and he would not have been able to walk the streets of Iraq, even in a kaffiyeh, since he can’t even speak Spanish, much less Arabic, and being an American citizen in an area controlled by Al-Sadr’s militants would have been a quick path to a painful and screaming end, videotaped for the world to whine about.

    His being an American Senator? Just a bonus for Mookie. Fortunately wiser heads prevailed, there was a surge, and Obama was proved utterly wrong.

    (I would say “again”, but this was just the first of his many, many errors in judgment.)

    Fact of the matter is John McCain still sees nothing wrong with going to war on a bed of lies…

    Can you provide any evidence whatsoever of a single lie that was told? Because Senator Rockefeller’s report (Link) says that Bush didn’t lie, nor did Cheney, nor did Colin, nor did Condi.

    (The rest of you may want to shield yourselves like you were front row at a Gallagher concert.)

    Page 15:
    (U) Conclusion 1: Statements by the President, Vice President, Secretary of State and the National Security Adviser regarding a possible Iraqi nuclear weapons program were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates, but did not convey the substantial disagreements that existed in the intelligence community.

    Page 28:
    (U) Conclusion 2: Statements in major speeches analyzed, as well as additional statements, regarding Iraq’s possession of biological agent, weapons, production capability, and use of mobile laboratories were substantiated by intelligence information. Intelligence assessments from the late 1990s through early 2003 consistently stated that Iraq retained biological warfare agent and the capability to produce more. Assessments on the mobile facilities included the production capabilities of those labs, both in terms of type of agent and in amount. Prior to the October 2002 NIE, some intelligence assessments left open the question as to whether Iraq possessed biological weapons or that it was actively producing them, though other assessments did not present such uncertainties. Policy makers did not discuss intelligence gaps in Iraq’s biological weapons programs, which were explicit in the October 2002 NIE.

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  38. “Since we’ve accomplished “so much” by bullying a country that was absolutely NO threat to the United States…”

    Yes, we have liberal talking point 2003v2.0. The overused no threat to anyone meme. Just ignore Sadaam’s funding of worldwide terrorism, his attempts to reconstitute his WMD program, his connections with Al Quada, his shooting at U.S. planes in the no fly zones, his training of terrorists in Iraq, his rape and torture of his own people. If we hadn’t invaded, everything would have continued to be rainbows and unicorns in Iraq and all those American soldiers would still be alive.

    Too bad Congress disagreed.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  39. a country that was absolutely NO threat to the United States…

    Anyone and everyone who knows the facts disagree with you on this issue.

    Kinda makes the relationship between you and ‘facts’ pretty clear, doesn’t it? Oil and water.

    He was not a “grave and gathering danger” and that’s been irrefutably proven.

    Not anymore. Can you show that anyone in possession of the facts said anything this foolish before we took him out? Or is hindsight all you have? (Seeing where your head is most of the time makes this preference somewhat of a foregone conclusion…)

    But the world has no shortage of those…and we’re certainly not living in THEIR countries uninvited.

    So we can’t do anything about any of them until we’re ready to do something about all of them, is that your argument?

    What a crock.

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  40. re #18. I like how ‘neolithic neocon’ is the only thing these people know how to spell. Damn scary it takes less finesse to stab a ballot.

    Comment by oss — 7/28/2008 @ 9:38 pm

    Vermont Neighbor (31ccb6)

  41. I just laugh any time somebody brings up McCain’s divorce. Heh. I mean seriously, everybody with a brain knows those on the left could care less about it, they only harp on it because they think those “conservatives” will become dis-interested because of that. Morons.

    I mean, everybody knows, its just better to continue to cheat on your wife, then to just divorce her…

    G (722480)

  42. I like how ‘neolithic neocon’ is the only thing these people know how to spell.

    I’m betting most of them wouldn’t be able to define either of those words.

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  43. lets see here “Citation: Let’s see…the former white house press secretary Scott McClelland, Richard Clark, the internal torture memos, the National Intelligence Estimate that the White House decided to edit before presenting to congress…I’m sure there’s more…I’m just busy. Heh heh.”

    Lets see here, what citation? Huh? Oh you mean just things they said, in books… gotcha…

    Furthermore, at least I know you don’t copy and paste, considering the proper spelling is Scott McClellan and Richard Clarke. heh. Moron.

    Oh, let me guess, you’re just too busy to back up your ramblings with evidence. So in other words, you believe what people just tell you, rather than look it up yourself.

    G (722480)

  44. Evidence was, and is, all there.

    That you, and the entire Bush/McCain junta choose to ignore it in favor of a world vision designed to “spread democracy by force” is nothing that the more intelligent and rational among us can control.

    Because plenty of “bad guys” had (and have) far greater death-dealing powers than Saddam Hussein …in fact, EVER had, as evidenced by our war in 1991. There’s no shortage of evil in the world.

    Why single out the weakest kid on the block is beyond me, if we’re serious about policing the world, as Georgey and John would have us do.

    The NIE estimate was compromised…and the White House presented its case for War rather than an accurate representation of the facts.

    Obama isn’t perfect by any stretch…but he did have this call right. We still haven’t even gotten around to DEFINING victory in Iraq. It’s been seven years, and no one trumpeting this cause can either define victory, or how to achieve it.

    Saudi Arabia actually gave birth to the 9-11 hijackers…boy…we’ve been stern there. Osama Bin Laden hides out along the Afghan border and we essentially give up the fight in favor of invading a country that HAD no presence of Al Quaeda prior to our invasion.

    No…no…ignore all that, monkeys…because it completely undermines the dropped ball that went fumbling right after GW and co began to manufacture a case for this war on the heels of 9-11.

    Which one of you will say to the needlessly slaughtered American soldier’s family….”we HAD to. He shot at our planes in the no fly zone. He was torturing his own people like dozens of other petty worldwide dictators. He had like three chemical weapons that could have reached…Jordan on a good day.”

    It’s easy to parrot this propoganda on a board.

    Go look at a mother’s face or a brother’s face or a wife’s face and tell them we killed their family member in Iraq to fight terrorists who weren’t actually THERE in the first place.

    I bet they’ll invite you for Thanksgiving.

    Danielson (d1460c)

  45. It’s easy to parrot this propoganda on a board.

    As you’ve ably demonstrated. I like the “junta” part. That really sells it.

    Pablo (99243e)

  46. 45. I like the selective capitalization, too. It really hammers home the obviously sincere outrage and sanctimony. Calling people “monkeys” and using dismissive nicknames is pretty effective too. You liked “junta” too? That is a good one. I like “propoganda” [sic].

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  47. Danielson is a chicken-human shield.

    His lies and distortions are too numerous to bother with.

    No AQ in Iraq prior to the war? How about Zarq? Ansar al-Islam? Facts are so fuckin’ inconvenient.

    JD (5f0e11)

  48. Evidence was, and is, all there.

    Yet, amazingly enough, you can’t be bothered to actually provide any.

    Interesting how that works out, innit?

    Why not ask the families of those 300,000 bodies found in mass graves all over Iraq how they felt about saddam being in charge? How about the hundreds of thousands killed on both sides during his decades-long war with Iran? How about the environmental damage he did after invaded a peaceful third country about the size of Delaware, for no other reason than to steal their oil?

    How about all of the families of the American and British pilots enforcing UN resolutions who were being shot at? How about all of the families of those killed that Saddam paid a $25,000 bonus for?

    You’re not interested in facts, you only want to tug heart strings.

    It has been official US policy to remove Saddam since Bush’s first term as Texas’ Governor, but you think we should have continued to ignore that little bit o’ datum, because YOU think it was “too hard”.

    If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. — Samuel Adams

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  49. “…Why single out the weakest kid on the block…”

    Because you start with the low-hanging fruit!

    Another Drew (8018ee)

  50. You’re not interested in facts, you only want to tug heart strings.
    And of course indulge his mock dissident outrage because it sounds so damn “tuned in” and “fighty the powery” and whatnot.

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  51. Will someone please yank the accreditation of Michael Moore A&M University!! Its graduates really stink up the joint.

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  52. Thank you for proving the point…Apparently the death of an Iraqui under the hand of a dictator is more important than an American soldier’s life.

    The Sam Adams quote is quite telling, as it is an aspiration for American idealism. Not Iraqui, not Afghani, American.

    We weren’t IN any clear and present danger. Those soldiers have died, and continue to die, for nothing.

    We’re not lining up to stop the warlords in Darfur…we botched Rhwanda, Somalia was a clusterf–k…and we’re retty much let communist China alone now that they’re a bigger economic dog…So when do we start slaughtering more of our own to graciously fix THOSE countries?

    Where do you draw the line? When it ceases to serve your dogma, that’s where.

    That’s exactly what Bush did. And exactly what McCain will do.

    Just want it to be worth it…and FOR something. You’d rather win an argument. Go tell a mother with a dead son what you’re puking up here and see if it helps you sleep at night.

    Of course you (like the administration and GI John) can simply lie to them, tell them the world is a lick safer for the sacrifice.

    You can’t debate the necessity of a meaningless war.

    Danielson (d1460c)

  53. Apparently the death of an Iraqui under the hand of a dictator is more important than an American soldier’s life.

    Actually, those 300,000 lives were snuffed out long before our troops were ever in danger. Thanks for admitting that you think those hundreds of thousands of people deserved to die, for apparently no other reason than the color of their skin. After all, those hundreds of thousands aren’t worth the life of a single American, isn’t that what you’re saying?

    We weren’t IN any clear and present danger.

    No one claimed that we had to be.

    Do you even know how this war started? If so, tell us, so that we can laugh and correct your mistakes.

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  54. a meaningless war

    No such thing. And you are a fool for even positing such a concept.

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  55. Someone please cite how Saddam Hussein was any more “dangerous” than Iran, North Korea, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan or Russia…and then maybe I’ll bite.

    The administration has admitted the mistake, you know…GW even joked about it at a fundraiser. And over 70% of America recognizes that there were NO WMD in Iraq–and that this war was largely force-fed to us–as it was to Congress.

    You guys all need to form a nice, paranoid little compound in Montana, say…and stop fucking it up for the rest of the country. We’ll even throw in Idaho and parts of Colorado.

    Danielson (d1460c)

  56. they’re a bigger economic dog

    By what Bizarro World standard?

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  57. Someone please cite how Saddam Hussein was any more “dangerous” than Iran, North Korea, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan or Russia…and then maybe I’ll bite.

    Who said that he had to be “more dangerous” than any of those?

    Oh, right, you’re just making shit up again…

    And over 70% of America recognizes that there were NO WMD in Iraq

    The other 30% are able to accurately identify WMD, so I’m not surprised.

    Can YOU?

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  58. Wow…drumwater is running for McCain vice president…

    And if what Saddam did was really so galling…such a “stain” on humankind…we had the chance to take him out nearly 20 years ago…you can’t have it both ways…can’t plead “humanitarian” when Saddam gassed those kurds in the 1980’s!

    You keep straw-manning the issues–almost a million have died at the hands of warlords in national genocide in Darfur…is that where we go next?

    No…apparently it’s Iran. Under the suspicion that they’re developing…a WMD. Sounds like the broken record of third-grade George Bush thinking….

    Danielson (d1460c)

  59. John McCain is just like George Bush. He has no plans for the war and the economy. He has even changed his position on the war in Iraq to mirror Obama’s. All of a sudden, McCain has changed from no timetable for the war on Iraq to a timetable.He also stated for the first time that the focus of the war should be on Afghanistan.Obama has always talked about a timetable in Iraq and that our focus should be on Afghanistan. In fact, Obama has been saying this for about a year. John McCain’s campaign is not about the issues. It is about Obama, negative ads flip-flops and lies. The media is giving him a free pass. Yes, McCain is a war hero and he has been in Washington for a long time, but this does not give him experience to be president.

    Amber (df7743)

  60. almost a million have died at the hands of warlords in national genocide in Darfur…is that where we go next?

    That is the job of the UN, is it not? Don’t they already have troops there?

    Or are you arguing that the US should be the world’s policeman?

    Meanwhile, you seem to be arguing that another nation that has been openly supporting, defending, supplying and training international terrorists, whose political leader has been openly advocating the destruction of an American ally with nuclear weapons they are still seeking (despite everything that the EU and UN could do).

    Are you sure you know which side you are defending?

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  61. Yes, McCain is a war hero and he has been in Washington for a long time, but this does not give him experience to be president.

    And what is Obama’s experience, since he has neither military experience nor political expertise?

    Be specific.

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  62. Good lord Amber. Are these really your deep-felt, sincere beliefs?

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  63. I find it strange that “experience McCain” mirrors ” no experience Obama”!

    Amber (df7743)

  64. Something about tails wagging their dogs seem to fit in here…

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  65. “he has been in Washington for a long time, but this does not give him experience to be president.”
    And yet somehow in bizarro world…
    You know I went to some batting cages when I was a kid. That means I’m more qualified to play shortstop for the Phillies than Jimmy Rollins.

    Jack Klompus (cf3660)

  66. I still wanna vote for Fred Thompson.

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  67. Amber, I find it stranger still, people attack McCain for actually having experience. Who was it, Wes Clark talking about McCain not having the right kind of military experience? Yet, Obama somehow comes out on top of that for not having any military experience?

    G (722480)

  68. Jimmie Rollins couldn’t carry Ozzie Smith’s …

    Another Drew (8018ee)

  69. Hey Drum! We’re getting somewhere! Now we’re talking about saudia arabia, yes?

    Iran?

    Syria?

    Palestine?

    Danielson (d1460c)

  70. Now we’re talking about saudia arabia, yes?

    No, we’re not talking about Saudi Arabia.

    How can I be expected to carry on a conversation with someone who does not even know the history or the facts?

    Quick question, daniel-san: who started the current war in Iraq?

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  71. I’ll believe the Left’s concern for the people in Darfur, and other areas, when I see them organizing “Lincoln Brigades” to go and defend/protect/liberate those peoples from their oppressors.
    But, that would presuppose them putting their lives where their mouth’s are.
    No, far better to let the UN handle these pesky problems. Then they get to complain how the vicious right-wing thugs of the world won’t observe the dictats of their betters at the UN – sort of like SH’s ignoring all of those UN agreements he make, and the subsequent SC Resolutions he ignored.
    Plus, some of them who are well connected will be able to make Billions off of whatever relief program that the UN sets up (OFF, anyone?).

    Another Drew (8018ee)

  72. Danielson,

    I think several people have asked you a few questions, mainly pertaining to providing evidence. Or do you just want to address those, or you could just keep avoiding it. That gives you lots of credibility here.

    G (722480)

  73. Emotion, partisan rhetoric, emotion, and lies. That is all Danielson has got.

    JD (5f0e11)

  74. Makes one miss Levi, kind of.

    The Wizard of Oz was the greatest shortstop ever, AD.

    JD (5f0e11)

  75. JD, you might be a Racist, but you’re an excellent judge of ballplayers.

    Another Drew (8018ee)

  76. AD – I might be a racist? Water might be wet. Danielson might be a dick. Levi might be a petulent little twat. Tlove might be teh hawt. DRJ might be the shizznit.

    JD (5f0e11)

  77. You’ve got more than evidence…you’ve got Witnesses!

    (You asked about countries that supported state-sponsored terrorism…sorry, I automatically assumed you meant the country whose citizens actually attacked us…silly me…also listed a whole group of countries guilty of what Iraq was guilty of…where’s the dividing line? Which is the best war to fight?)

    An administration that gives talking points–actual talking points–to Fox news…and you insist on keeping your head in the Iraqui sand, shaking against a threat that was really never there in the first place.

    You’ve been beaten down pretty hard on John McCain…and done what all administration toady’s do when beaten…go back to WMD mama and cry “it’s not our fault we blundered into this war…not our fault at all!.”

    This was originally about John McCain…an argument you lost…so you change the subject to quoting erroneous information that got us into a bad war.

    You won’t own up to ANY administration errors…something even the administration hasn’t done.

    Let me guess. You think Vietnam was winnable, too, right?

    As for what started this war? The ludicrous notion that UN Sanctions had any real teeth…that’s what started this war. We used them, corrupted intelligence and the world’s pity for us after 9-11 (not to mention a healthy dose of American fearmongering) to insist that Iraq was the next great “terror threat”…Congress caved, Colin Powell ruined a distinguished career and Bushy got his little war.

    Answer me this: If you are so correct, why is it almost one in FOUR Americans believe that Iraq was responsible for 9-11? In what warped America is such a baldfaced lie even possible?

    Answer: The one you’re currently living in.

    Danielson (d1460c)

  78. Wait, what happened to Levi?

    G (722480)

  79. Danielson, you just fail. More claims, with no evidence. One if four Americans believe Iraq was responsible for 9/11. Source, Link? I know I for sure was never polled on that one.

    Nah, you don’t need facts, it just is mob rule for you.

    G (722480)

  80. JD…now you g’won back to your Belgian Budweiser and Ford pickup an’ play in them thar fields…your sister’ll be’long to take care of ye toot sweet.

    Don’t fergit yer chaw, now…and don’t ye fuss with the thinkin’s of them smartfolk…they ain’t signin’ yer welfare check…jess payin’ for it.

    Danielson (d1460c)

  81. Danielson could just go back to his daily circle jerk and sing kumbaya with his other braindead leftard friends and campaign to save the planet from the scourge of global warming based on junk science.

    Darfur? Why the hell should the left support intervention in Darfur if they can’t support intervention in Iraq? Darfur is not a threat to the U.S. It is a complete contradiction in logic. What U.S. interests are we advancing by intervening in Darfur?

    D’oh!!!!

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  82. Amber – Read the beginning of the thread. All your points were previously raised and trashed, but thanks for stopping by.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  83. “This was originally about John McCain…an argument you lost”

    Danielson – You got smashed up pretty bad on your fictions about John McCain. Go back and refresh your memory, dude.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  84. sorry, I automatically assumed you meant the country whose citizens actually attacked us

    Just because they are born there does not make them citizens thereof, and citizenship does not matter as much as sponsorship, unless you want to hold the government of the United States for Jihad Johnny Walker.

    (Do you just spout the same talking points that have been repeatedly disproven? Or can you actually provide REAL evidence?)

    shaking against a threat that was really never there in the first place.

    You’re ignorant of the facts. Color me surprised.

    WMD

    A term you still cannot define.

    The ludicrous notion that UN Sanctions had any real teeth

    So what is the point of the UN? And without the UN, we STILL had legitimate Casus Belli.

    If you are so correct, why is it almost one in FOUR Americans believe that Iraq was responsible for 9-11?

    So what? Hell, half of America believes that Democrats have a willingness to defend this country, and they’re clearly wrong, too.

    What does a national opinion poll have to do with facts?

    And even supposing arguendo Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, we weren’t attacking Iraq because of their support for the 9/11 19. We were removing Saddam for many other reason (his overt and blatant support for international terrorism was only one of the reasons.

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  85. Heavy sigh. We give them eyes, but they cannot see. So you all feel good about losing 4000 plus Americans to a guy who was no threat.

    Who’s fucked up here?

    Danielson (d1460c)

  86. “So you all feel good about losing 4000 plus Americans to a guy who was no threat.”

    Somebody pull the fire alarm. Straw fire on 86.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  87. Heavier sigh. (Pause) :::Sigh::: Yeah, according to you, we lost 4000 plus Americans to a guy who was no threat, hiding in a hole in the ground, was executed last year. Ergo, we are still apparently fighting a dead man. Right….

    Anyway, I’m not sure about everybody, but I’m sure we’ve already got eyes. Perhaps you should do more that just look at things though, seek the Wizard out and get a brain, perhaps that will help with your comprehension problem.

    Oh, let me end with a more than heavy sigh.

    G (c0157b)

  88. So you all feel good about losing 4000 plus Americans to a guy who was no threat.

    Three lies for the price of one. Not bad for a moron like you.

    Can you actually answer questions, or are you just a walking pile of … talking points?

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  89. Now McCain mirrors Obama on Iraq. He now thinks a time table of sixteen months withdrawal is workable. How do you spin that folks?
    Mais je ne serai pas choqué.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  90. Now McCain mirrors Obama on Iraq.

    Once again, you are putting the tail before the dog. McCain has been saying the same thing since before Obama was a Senator.

    Try this one – you’ll be hearing it a lot from Obama in the next few months: “Conditions on the ground”.

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  91. Oh and Danielson, you can put down the goalposts now. They must be getting heavy. You started out on this thread attacking various aspects of McCain’s candidacy and got your ass handed to you. Then you displayed you ignorance of the surge and the origins of the Iraq War. Then you decided to display even more ignorance of our historical relationship with Iraq. For shits and giggles you threw in an Axis of Evil and Darfur analogy.

    Dude, you’ve had a tough day defending one defenseless position after another.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  92. How do you spin that folks?

    Read the thread Lovey. It was debunked early on.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  93. #93
    “Debunked”? (Chuckles..). By you I guess. Being such an independent observer you have been. (More chuckles..).

    love2008 (1b037c)

  94. Yes, debunked like the unpopular kid at summer camp.

    “McCain thinks troop levels should depend on conditions but concedes that 16 months is a “pretty good timetable” whereas Obama thinks 16 months is a pretty good timetable but concedes that, er, troop levels should depend on conditions. Nuance.”

    McCain has held his position longer than Obama has had a key to a DC office.

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  95. So, I am an incestuous redneck that drinks Bud, drives a Ford, and is on welfare because I disagree with the twatwaffle. There are so many things wrong with that typical snobby effette elitist stereotype that it is hard to figure out where to begin.

    JD (5f0e11)

  96. #95
    Which “position” would that be Drum? The old “It is wrong and dangerous to talk about a timetable..” position or the new one?

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  97. Racist.

    G (c0157b)

  98. As far as I understand this, the timetable for withdraw is when conditions on the ground call for it, and further, 16 months is the timeframe needed for that withdraw. Not 16 months for withdraw, nor immediate withdraw, nor declaring a specific date to/for withdraw without the conditions being met. The way I’m seeing it, McCain has been saying he’d stay in Iraq as long as necessary and given if conditions in Iraq improve to where we can withdraw, the time frame for the “withdraw” would be 16 months.

    Am I understanding McCain’s position properly?

    G (c0157b)

  99. The old “It is wrong and dangerous to talk about a timetable..” position or the new one?

    You’re using terms that you don’t even understand, so how can you be expected to even understand his position?

    He was talking then about the “specific calendar dates” that Obama and the rest of the Brave Sir Robin contingent were blathering on about (along with Murtha’s “over the horizon to Okinawa” nonsense).

    Setting a specific date for withdrawal is now – just as it was then – wrong and dangerous. Letting the conditions on the ground specify when we leave.

    IOW, as the Iraqis stand up, we stand down. Which is what Bush has been saying all along. Obama was originally the “get out now, no matter what the generals say” candidate, and this trip has caused him to change to what McCain has been saying all along.

    I’m not voting for McCain, so kindly leggo that strawman, and realize that you can’t just rewrite history to make your guy look good, because people remember.

    Not liberals, of course, but people.

    G has it dead on. You do not.

    The actual sequence of events is simple: Obama changing his position to mirror McCain’s, not what you claim.

    HTH

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  100. #98
    JD, I have a new word for you. It’s German for “Racist”. Try “Racingists.” Or “Rassisten”. :)

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  101. twatwaffle? HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

    TLove (b8e7b4)

  102. 101. Love2008, it was actually me saying “Racist” not JD, though, JD is usually the one to say it, I only said it cause I felt it was lacking in his post. Heh.

    G (c0157b)

  103. Tlove !!!!! Hope you made it through the earthquake unharmed.

    JD (5f0e11)

  104. I was driving, so I didn’t even feel it. Thanks though!

    TLove (b8e7b4)

  105. #100
    I’m not voting for McCain
    You keep saying you wont vote for McCain, yet every comment you make on this blog is anti-Obama and pro-McCain. You think by saying that you wont vote for McCain, you can use that guise to propagate your McCain agenda. Who do you think you are kidding with? Enough of the pretence. The mask is wearing off Drumwaster.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  106. It would seem so G. My bad. I hope JD has taken the lectures.
    Triple Racist!

    love2008 (1b037c)

  107. Good to hear, Tlove.

    G – Consider yourself denounced. Denounced and condemned.

    JD (5f0e11)

  108. Awww, JD still likes me! Scott hates me cuz he realized I’m one of those damn liberals.

    TLove (b8e7b4)

  109. #108
    Racist to the tenth power!

    love2008 (1b037c)

  110. Tlove – Teh hawt knows no political boundaries. Plus, you are cool.

    Now, about that role playing …

    JD (5f0e11)

  111. hahahahah. you really love that idea!

    TLove (b8e7b4)

  112. Actually…no one has refuted John McCain being alive because he was an admiral’s son…or that he was severly rebuked by the Senate for his direct involvement in the S&L scandal, or for using his own documentary footage in his political ads (a documentary that reveals he better-dealed the wife who waited for him), or that he has flip-flopped on taxes, drilling, immigration, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sunni, Shia, et all…or refuted his long-time dependence on Phil Graham–architect of the legislation that opened the door to the Mortgage Crisis as well as the guy insisting economic strife is “all in our heads”…not to mention being the “troop supporter” who’s rated as 20% (a “D”) by the disabled vets of America for his embarrassing voting record AGAINST the well being of our troops. But he has Powers Booth do his voice over and promises “country first” while openly admitting he’ll continue the bulk of the policies that have run the country into the ground the last seven years…and you lap it up, because to do otherwise is to admit you were duped by the STUPIDEST President in American History.

    I’d be pretty hot to “defend” an illegal war if it meant I were DUMBER than GW Bush….so you guys win.

    But if you do in November? We all lose.

    Danielson (d1460c)

  113. Nope. Still not a fact to be seen.

    Oil and water, I say…

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  114. Tlove – I am a weak man 😉

    Danielson – You ignorant slut. Simply repeating the talking points and lies does not make them any more true.

    FWIW, it is not our job to prove that you are lying, and you are. It is your job to prove the veracity of your assertions. Your claim, your burden.

    JD (5f0e11)

  115. Would I be the oil or the water I wonder….

    TLove (b8e7b4)

  116. Dunno, TL. Are you as allergic to facts as these sub-moronic half-wits that seem to parrot nothing but talking points (and incorrectly, at that)?

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  117. Actually, Danielson, several of your claims have in fact been debunked. As an example, with respect to the Keating scandal, to quote Wikipedia: “In the end, McCain was cleared by the Senate Ethics Committee of acting improperly or violating any law or Senate rule, but was mildly rebuked for exercising “poor judgment”.”

    SPQR (26be8b)

  118. Danielson seems to somehow have this amazing insight into the intelligence of every single President of the United States and reached the insightful conclusion that Bush is the MOST STUPIDEST! I guess he carefully studied the SAT scores and GPAs of Franklin Peirce, James Buchanan, and Warren Harding, et. al.

    Minister Jack X Klompus Muhammad (b796b4)

  119. No. I’m just here cuz I like the company.

    TLove (b8e7b4)

  120. So Danielson, why does your opinion depend so much on your misrepresentation of the facts?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  121. SpQR – That irony is lost on them. Hint, Danielle. If you have to distort or lie to make your point, it says a lot about the point you are trying to make.

    JD (5f0e11)

  122. He won’t even slow down long enough to read any of the replies, much less answer any of the questions he has been asked or provide any evidence to support the nonsense he asserts.

    Apparently, he’s “too busy”.

    Drumwaster (5ccf59)

  123. Speaking truth to power while making Rage Against the Machine mixes is a full time job after all. Probably has spelling homework due tomorrow or else detention.

    Minister Jack X Klompus Muhammad (b796b4)

  124. “no one has refuted John McCain being alive because he was an admiral’s son”

    Danielson – Beautiful logic. No one has refuted the other POW’s surviving because they were not Admirals’ sons either. How about them apples.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  125. Danielson – I’ll bet your stream of consciousness bullshit plays really well in the community based reality where nobody cares about facts or the truth. Here, not so much.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  126. Love2008 #11,

    Sorry but I didn’t see your comment before.

    I have no problem with Obama fine-tuning his opinions but Newsweek asked him about that as he concluded his world tour:

    “Based on what you’ve seen and heard on this trip, is there anything that has led you to review any policy, tweak things, rethink anything?”

    In response, Obama said the only rethinking or tweaking his trip caused him to do was in Afghanistan. Apparently the trip didn’t change his mind about Iraq at all.

    DRJ (e4b6ac)


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