Why $52 Million Just Isn’t What It Used To Be — The Fundraising Woes of the Obama Campaign: Updated
Posted by WLS:
Updated** — Note below that I say the Obama campaign and the DNC have a combined $72 million cash on hand at the end of June. This is being reported elsewhere that Obama has $72 million cash on hand. On this washingtonpost blog they repeat the $72 million number, and claim the DNC has another $20 million, giving them a combined $92 million, nearly as much as McCain and the RNC. Armbinder has the text from the letter the Obama campaign sent to its contributors:
The Obama campaign and the DNC ended June with a combined total of nearly $72 million in the bank. It’s a healthy number. But McCain and the RNC together still have a huge cash advantage, and we need your help to close the gap.
Much is being made of the fact that Obama revealed today that his campaign raised $52 million in June, second only to this record breaking fundraising in February when he raised $55 million.
But, can someone explain why this number comes out today in the form of a letter to contributors, but no FEC filing has yet been made? What would be in an FEC filing? Well, little things like “expenditures” for the month of June, and “Cash-on-Hand” as of June 30. Obama says that the campaign and the DNC combined have $72 million — but doesn’t how much of that is Obama’s money. If they did, we’d be able to figure out how much Obama spent in June, and how much cash-on-hand does the Obama campaign have? Lets do a little math:
According to his filing for the month of May, Obama had $43 million cash on hand on 5/31. Add to that his $52 million raised in June, and his cash available to pay expenses in June was $95 million. Now the letter today tells us that Obama and the DNC combined have $72 million cash on hand as of the end of June, but they don’t tell us how much Obama has. If we accept the accuracy of the reported expenditure amount of $42 million for June, then Obama’s campaign would have only $53 million cash on hand at the end of June.
It was suggested by people close to the campaign that they thought he might raise $100 million in June, after Obama announced that he would not seek public financing for the general election.
“Specifically, they say Obama could raise $100 million in June and could attract 2.5 million to 3 million new donors to his campaign.”
“One hundred million dollars this June — it’s definitely within reach,” said Wade Randlett, who has raised more than $200,000 for Obama.”
Randlett said Obama would not likely reach the awe-inspiring total if he limited himself to contributions that could only be spent before the August convention.
“The big question is when we really open the floodgates to general-election money,” he said.
Second, if Obama’s burn rate in June was $42 million, he only put $10 million in the bank after he paid all his bills.
But lets also look at Marc Arbinder’s comments on Obama’s numbers over at The Atlantic:
The average contribution was $68.00, which does not tell us how much of the $52 million came from $2300 checks. Obama spent more time at fundraisers this month than at any time in the past.
One way Obama has played the PR campaign on the size of the “average” donor was to count every person who bought a button or bumper sticker as a “donor”. Those $5 “contributions” work to bring the “average” way down.
Also from Armbinder:
“$50 million of the $52 million can be spent before the convention; it’s not clear right now how much general election cash Obama has banked.
This is HUGELY important.
What Arbinder is saying here is that nearly all the money Obama raised in June is money for the primary — not general election money. Its money he can only spend between now and the convention, i.e., money he NEEDS to keep his current operations going. Because he started June with only $43 million, and because his costs were going to increase signficantly as they swung towards the general campaign, the emphasis was on raising money that was needed NOW, not money to be spent after 9/1.
What suffers? How about the account for money to be spent starting around September 1.
The way the public financing works, McCain will get a check from the FEC for $85 million at the conclusion of the GOP convention. Once a candidate is officially the nominee, he can no longer spend funds raised for the primary on the campaign’s expenses. Its to the advantage of the candidate to drain that “primary” account down to the last nickel, because anything left in it can’t be used after the convention.
So on about 9/1, McCain is going to have a pot full of $85 million to spend, along with the RNC spending its money.
Right now Obama has —- $2 million, as reported by Armbinder. Only $83 million to go!!!!!!!!
Lets see — $83 million, divided by $2 million a month ….. well, that’s gonna take a while.
Obviously I’m being sarcastic. Once the Obama campaign has raised enough money to cover their anticipated operational expenses from now through the Dem primary, they will shift all their fundraising towards raising money for the general.
Lets estimate that their campaign expenses in July and August are maybe a little bit higher than they were for June. More staff, more advertising, etc. Right now Obama is said to have 2000 paid staff — that’s 4 times the number the Bush-Cheney 2004 campaign employed. Lets put the number for each month at $50 million.
He had $53 million in the bank to start July, so he needed another $47 million to pay for everything through the convention. So the next $47 million to be raised will have to be in Primary money as well. After that his contributors can be asked to shift their contributions into the general campaign fund. But, if he’s going to have as much money as McCain on 9/1, he’s got to raise $47 million more for the primary, plus $85 million for the general — over the months of July and August.
That’s $132 million — or $66 million a month — from a guy who just raised $52 million before he started disappointing his most ardent followers with his position shifts.
If Obama falls short of that number, McCain will start the general campaign with a cash advantage and a much smaller monthly operating expense. Obama, on the other hand, will be able to continue raising money while McCain will not.
But, does a Presidential candidate really want to be in the position of having to raise money during the short 10 weeks between the end of the conventions and election day? Does the Obama campaign really want to continue paying for the fundraising appraratus that goes along with it — and expense that McCain’s campaign will not be incurring? Obama campaign workers will be spending time and energy raising money rather than doing things that lead to getting votes.
And McCain will have $85 million, plus what the RNC spends on his behalf. At the end of May the RNC had more than $50 million in the bank, while the DNC is having trouble paying all the bills for the convention.
So, will we see the FEC filing late tomorrow? If so, what are they trying to avoid publicity about by filing it on a Friday?
“Its money he can only spend between now and the convention”
I think turning down public financing means he can transfer money from the primary to the regular campaign.
afall (b7ee98) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:07 pmJesus Christ man, just admit your stupid little thesis was wrong.
Also, get a life. Could there be anything less interesting to discuss in American politics than how much money each candidate has raised?
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:11 pmAfall — nope. He’s still subject to the FEC rules on fundraising and spending. The only thing he did was to not accept public financing of his general campaign. He can raise his own funds. But he still needs to keep the funds segretated.
WLS (68fd1f) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:17 pmSo you’re worried too, huh Lev?
WLS (68fd1f) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:17 pm“Also, get a life. Could there be anything less interesting to discuss in American politics than how much money each candidate has raised?”
Levi – You took the time to read the post and comment, little man. Doesn’t that mean you’re interested?
daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:22 pmI mean, just look at what you predicted last week about this subject:
https://patterico.com/2008/07/11/welcome-surprise-in-the-gops-future-concerning-obamas-fundraising-numbers/#more-9135
Basically everything you said in that post has turned out to be totally false. You can’t just admit it, so now you’re scrambling over to some entirely new argument, about how it doesn’t matter how much Obama makes, because he has lots of stuff to pay for… or something. There’s absolutely no coherence between this post and last week’s, wouldn’t you have to agree?
What could you have possibly said in this post that would make me worry?
I don’t like Obama anymore, anyway.
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:23 pmInteresting. I doubt it will be as bad for Obama as your worst predictions, but this could be a huge help for McCain even if Obama’s only a *little* squeezed for cash. Especially if McCain isn’t having to worry about fundraising post-convention and can spend his time doing more important things.
Here’s to hoping you’re right.
Joe M. (36eada) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:24 pmI’m interested in seeing Republicans craft theories on nothing but conjecture and the most dubious of premises, and then watch them pretend like they’ve still got credibility after reality shoots those theories down in flames.
That’s all that’s going on here.
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:27 pmHe’s not anymore right about any of this crap than he was about whatever crap he was spouting last week.
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:29 pmSo if he’s wrong, Levi, where is the filing?
SPQR (26be8b) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:30 pmNot interested so much when Democrats do this, though, are you? Can you spell P-A-R-T-I-S-A-N H-A-C-K?
Drumwaster (5ccf59) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:33 pmI guess that Starbucks shift is over.
Eric Blair (02ec00) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:39 pmYou fail to understand. He’s wrong about last week, undeniably. There’s no reason to believe he’s any more right with this latest crackpot theory that he spent a whole day conjuring up.
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:39 pmDemocrats are shitbags, to be sure. But there aren’t any Democrats around here making ridiculous posts, are there?
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:41 pmYou fail to understand, Levi, where is the filing? You are declaring him wrong on a deliberately vague press release.
You complain about speculation, but where is the hard data to support your claims ?
SPQR (26be8b) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:41 pmAgain, he was wrong about his post last week, when it was all, ‘Obama’s not in a tight primary battle, the small donors are tapped out,’ etc. Well, he raised $52 million, so I guess not.
He could very well be right about all of this dumb crap that he’s saying today, but chances are he’s just making excuses and moving goalposts. On the 11th, it was all about the number. Today, it’s all about costs and salaries and blah blah blah. You can believe him all you want, he’s a Republican, God knows that is all you need to know. But anyone with a functioning brain should recognize that he’s just incapable of admitting publicly that he was wrong about something.
Which makes this a pretty good analogy for how Republicans have run this country for the past decade.
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:47 pmDear SPQR: you are never going to get an answer. This person needs to feel all manly and tough after a day of making skinny cinnamon dolce lattes for rich people. So he tries to act all OG here.
He is playing the argument game, going back and forth from “changing the subject” to “crude insult.”
It’s a game, folks. If you want to argue, that is cool. But you will never get him to listen, because he doesn’t want to listen. Or think. He wants to argue. That’s it.
Same as it ever was.
Eric Blair (02ec00) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:51 pmLevi has trouble balancing his checkbook. How can you expect him to understand this issue ? Leave the poor kid alone.
Mike K (2cf494) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:52 pmWLS, what’s the rule on public financing of campaigns? Can Obama change his mind and go back into the system, or is it already too late?
JVW (6a7c34) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:53 pmPot (so to speak), meet Mr. Kettle.
Like I just wrote. It’s a game. And not a terribly self-aware one.
Eric Blair (02ec00) — 7/17/2008 @ 8:53 pmWhatever pal.
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/17/2008 @ 9:42 pmAs I have written before, you don’t fool me (or anyone else here) one iota. As for me, I teach people like you every single semester. Authority figures are “stupid,” classes are “unfair,” and the system is “rigged.”
But at the same time, there appears to be no or little ownership of the choices made, and the consequences resulting from those choices—whether it is staying up until 2 AM with the Wii instead of studying, or taking the 11 AM classes so that you can sleep in. As you wrote above, “whatever.”
Such swagger and sneer, but a pretty sad transcript. Maybe you are different from the ones I meet and try to help who sound like you, semester after semester. I hope so.
A few folks here are trying to engage you, while others like to attack you right back, which is your true goal for posting here, I’m certain.
The sad part is that I can tell you are intelligent enough to actually express yourself without anger, crudeness, or personal attacks. But that isn’t your game. It’s all about making yourself feel strong and powerful in a damned uncertain world.
The ironic part is that we all feel the uncertainty that drives you. But we try to discuss issues with one another, generally. Argument is not victory.
Despite all your anger and bile, I wish you well. As I say, I see people like you every semester. It works out for some of them. I honestly hope you are in that group.
Or are a trustifarian with one heck of trust fund.
Eric Blair (02ec00) — 7/17/2008 @ 10:06 pmLevi — last week I said the absence of the filing raised questions about whether his fundraising had recovered from the Mar-May slide. I merely pointed out that when his numbers were good they were posted at the earliest possible moment, and when they were not so good the campaign delayed.
I think I made a pretty good case here that $52 million isn’t that great IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WILL BE NEEDED.
Its one thing to raise $55 million in February when you have some primaries coming up spaced out over several weeks, where you can shift staff from one state to another.
Its quite a different thing to make that same $55 million stretch as far as you want it to stretch when you are financing a 50 state campaign.
The truth is no one knows how much Obama is going to need because no candidate has ever opted out of public financing in the general election since it was made available. Obama’s campaign is in uncharted water. Whether $52 million is a lot or not a lot in the context of their campaign expenses remains to be seen.
$30 million would have been an unmitigated disaster. $75+ million would have been reason to cheer. $52 million is going to leave some of his finance people staring at their budget and balance sheet trying to figure out the best way to go forward.
wls (02df99) — 7/17/2008 @ 10:32 pmObammy is running commercials in Indiana day and night. His latest is with Dick Lugar about atomic de-proliferation. Gotta be costing a chunk of change.
Hazy (d671ab) — 7/17/2008 @ 10:34 pmJVW — I think Obama can go back into the public financing so long as he hasn’t spent private money — which he cannot legally do until after the primary. Announcing it when he did simply got it out of the way, and allowed his campaign to begin planning.
wls (02df99) — 7/17/2008 @ 10:34 pmYou will never find out about the financing of the Hussein campaign. Millions of dollars are flowing in from terrorists and terrorist nations and as Hussein stated, ‘if they’re below a set amount I don’t have to identify the donars’. The NYSlimes (Dowd) of all people took a peek at this and didn’t sound too pleased the terrorists are buying America the best half white/half Arab president money can buy. You can’t even find out his record in Chicago and his mob connections much less the truth about his hertage and his birth record. It will be funny if the idiots elect a non legal (for the office) citizen as POTUS and he is removed from office before he takes office.
Scrapiron (c36902) — 7/17/2008 @ 11:12 pmIt’ll take months for the media bosses to get the sh** washed out of their eyes and their teeth brushed after having their heads totally up Hussein’s butt for a week.
Ah yes, that’s ‘merely’ all you did. You weren’t flat wrong about every prediction you made at all, you were just pointing things out. Sure… sure…
Get real man. You thought he was going to come out and say he only raised like $15 million, didn’t you? You don’t need to answer. We know.
It’d be way more convincing if you’d mentioned anything about that last week. But last week’s posting is noticeably devoid of any such caveat, isn’t it? Just be honest; you were getting worked up because you thought he’d totally blown it in June, but now that you know he only missed his own record by a few million, you’re just flatly saying that that isn’t enough. Last week you were arguing that the money had dried up, it was proven conclusively to you that it hadn’t, and instead of just admitting your argument was wrong, you’re just adopting an entirely new one and hoping everyone forgets how wrong you were last week. I mean good god, if what is happening right now isn’t a perfect micro-chasm of the behavior demonstrated by our Republican government and our sleazy media over the past 8 years, I don’t know what is.
None of that makes any sense, least of all your totally arbitrary and week late bar-setting for Obama’s fundraising. Of course $52 million is going to ‘leave some of his people’ flabbergasted, you’re a Republican. That’s like defining the strike zone after the pitch. I mean what the hell? $52 million is more than twice what McCain raised, it’s literally a hair away from the record, and now all of a sudden $75 million is what he needed? Come on…
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/18/2008 @ 12:27 amHave I ever said any of that shit?
Having fun lecturing an imaginary person, professor?
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/18/2008 @ 12:30 amI just hope they decide it’s all taxable.
Kevin Murphy (0b2493) — 7/18/2008 @ 1:25 amBut there aren’t any Democrats around here making ridiculous posts, are there?
With a couple exceptions, we do have have Democrats making ridiculous, idiotic, uninformed comments that are nothing but undocumented assertions.
You’re not one of the exceptions, Mr. Sunny.
In fact, you are the prime example of a Democrat making ridiculous, uninformed comments that are nothing but undocumented assertions.
As for idiotic, this from you has yet to be topped by anyone for pure idiocy:
Thought we’d forgotten about that, huh?
Paul (ae2fbe) — 7/18/2008 @ 3:46 amAs I have written before, you don’t fool me (or anyone else here) one iota. As for me, I teach people like you every single semester. Authority figures are “stupid,” classes are “unfair,” and the system is “rigged.”
Have I ever said any of that shit?
Comment by Levi — 7/18/2008 @ 12:30 am
Yes. “College is retarded” and a “pyramid scheme” for just one example. Haven’t read all your postings but I remember that one pretty clearly – most people know that you get out of college what you put into it. That one dismissive comment alone (and I’d be willing to bet there are others) indicates the general attitude Eric Blair was talking about. And I agree with Eric’s post above.
no one you know (1ebbb1) — 7/18/2008 @ 5:04 amBut I never said authority figures are stupid, classes are unfair, or the system is rigged though, did I? I mean Jesus Christ… that is literally the only thing I’ve ever said about college while I’ve been posting. Your ‘one example’ is the only example, I promise. Eric Blair is making shit up.
College is retarded. The broader American education system is retarded. You don’t need to look any further than how low we rank when compared to the rest of the developed world. We have chosen one of the dumbest people I’ve ever seen to two terms for President, also.
Don’t put words in my mouth.
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/18/2008 @ 7:20 amYes, one of the dumbest even if he is the only Prez with an MBA and had better scores in school than many of the lib lions you moonbats idolize. I’m sure the liberal profs gave Dubya a pass on grades though. Oh, he was a cheerleader too. What? You say he lacked courage because he didn’t protest the war abroad like slick willie did?
So why does Levi even bother paying college tuition if it is a big ripoff? Or did someone else pay while he smoked ganja and led a life of debauchery?
madmax333 (d95aa0) — 7/18/2008 @ 7:26 amLevi. Careful reading will serve you well. In college and elsewhere.
That one dismissive comment alone (and I’d be willing to bet there are others) indicates the general attitude Eric Blair was talking about.
I never said you said the exact words you forswear. Neither did Eric: he was talking about an attitude generally dismissive of things which could benefit one, if appreciated and effort expended to benefit from.
Don’t put words in OUR mouths.
no one you know (1f5ddb) — 7/18/2008 @ 7:32 am“The broader American education system is retarded. You don’t need to look any further…”
…”than myself.” That finished up your thought quite a bit better, don’t you think?
Dmac (416471) — 7/18/2008 @ 7:41 amNYYK and company,
Yeah, the fellow is pretty aggressive in his assertions of superiority to authority figures, and it upsets him that he isn’t in control of anything (and I doubt he pays his own tuition, but few students do these days). The vulgarity is a good example; he feels that it makes him stronger and more in control somehow. Also the oversensitive antagonism, followed by more assertions of the superiority of his own point of view.
I also don’t think he keeps track of what he has posted before. That is because he is just playing a character out of Monty Python’s “The Argument Room.”
The fellow isn’t serious. Just truculent. And many of us remember that attitude from college, the source of it, and the reality of the person displaying that attitude. Heck, some of us had that attitude for a time, am I right?
It’s a waste of time to engage the fellow for now. There are so many people here with ideas—with which to agree or disagree—and we all learn from each other.
But that’s not the guy’s game.
Eric Blair (02ec00) — 7/18/2008 @ 7:44 amDmac, good one! I tip my hat, as usual.
Eric Blair (02ec00) — 7/18/2008 @ 7:46 amBachelor’s Degree in History from Yale, MBA from Harvard, and a fighter pilot, and people like Levi are still calling him “dumb”.
The only word that applies is “projection”.
Hey, Levi, how many kinds of planes can YOU fly? How many degrees do you have under your belt?
*crickets*
Drumwaster (5ccf59) — 7/18/2008 @ 7:52 amDW, yeah, I get resentment and envy from those kinds of posts, rather than “here is a better way.”
The whole “America is dumb” meme is just plain silly and profoundly ignorant, like when you look at Nobel Prizes and such. Usually it is because of reading a Rolling STone article or seeing a Daily Show snippet on another country…
Most of what you have read from the guy typifies this “Daddy” resentment/hatred that is very common among many folks in college. They want to be independent, and yet they aren’t paying their own bills. And some very uncool people are paying their bills for them. So it makes the student resentful and angry.
This gets projected on the country as a whole.
Add to it a need to prove strength and power by insult and sneers, and voila!
Eric Blair (02ec00) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:01 amI asked if I ever said any of those things he attributed to students he’s had like me, because those things are substantially different than me just calling college in general retarded, and you said, “Yes.” It’s right up there. I’m looking at it. A simple answer to a simple question.
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:09 amBlah, blah, blah. You know the only time I’ve ever noticed you post is when you pull out this psycho-analysis bullshit. If I’m just playing meaningless games that are only supposed to waste people’s time, what does it say about you that you keep responding to me?
Also, I don’t know who the ‘authority figures’ are that you keep harping on about, is that supposed to be you? What reason do I have to believe you’re an authority on anything? Because you tell me you teach at a college?
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:14 amSince you’re a student in a self – described “retarded” system, then why should anyone respond to your posts in the first place? You’ve already negated your entire existence here – look up the word “oxymoron,” and try to figure it out.
Dmac (416471) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:15 amYeah, keep that up. ‘George Bush is smart because he’s got some papers with his name on them.’ That will hold up next to the thousands of hours of videotape of the man behaving like a retarded person in public.
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:16 amWhat?
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:17 amThat non – response pretty much says it all. Get thee to an English 101 class, pronto – or else your future career path screams “Pizza Delivery!”
Dmac (416471) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:22 amYou can’t help projecting, can you? You must have a very poor self-image to need to demean others as a way of trying to build your own ego.
Such a moron he has out-thought the Democratic Party at every turn, and managed to accomplish almost everything he set out to accomplish, and the Dems follow along like the sheeple they are.
And you call Bush dumb…
Still didn’t answer the questions, did you? How many kinds of fighter jets have YOU learned to fly? How many post graduate degrees do YOU hold? How many times have YOU been elected to high office (Governor or higher)? No, you think fame=wisdom and charisma=intelligence, without having any of those qualities yourself, then project your own shortcomings onto people you’ve never met.
Sucks to be you, doesn’t it?
Drumwaster (5ccf59) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:26 amLevi, it is like a car crash. You keep proving everyone’s point, over and over again. You also keep accusing other people of doing things that you do. Projection, as it has been suggested.
Again, you just like to fight. I wish you well, truly I do. But that is because I (and many other people here) see what is behind the laughable tough guy pose. The refrain of calling people with whom you disagree as “retarded” is tiresome and juvenile.
But you will just curse and insult in reply. What does that predictability say about you, besides help explain your likely GPA? That whole “debate” with DRJ proved what you are actually about more than any of your sneers here.
So go shriek now and carry on and insult. It’s who you want everyone to think you are, after all.
Eric Blair (02ec00) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:27 amWhen accusing someone of being “wrong about everything” isn’t it customary to provide at least one quote and provide an actual argument? Or is the academic ‘curve’ so great that providing a linky with vague accusations now equals a case?
Libertard (cc1676) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:31 amI’ve said a number of times in this thread that WLS should just admit he was wrong about his post last week. Did you miss those? Doesn’t that constitute a ‘here is a better way?’
This is thee problem with Republicans, a total inability or unwillingness to admit you were wrong about something in the face of unassailable facts. It happens on these blogs all the time, but it also happens in our Republican-lead government, and people get killed because of it. ‘Stay the course’ and all that.
As for the rest of your shitty post…. LOL!
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:32 amSelf-reflection is not one of your strong suits, huh?
How your head does not explode from the cognitive dissonance is a miracle of modern science.
JD (75f5c3) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:35 amNo, it doesn’t. It constitutes a “your way sucks!”, and nothing more.
But that is all you have. Your entire debate with DRJ was “You’ll never provide enough evidence to convince me”, and then you come back with “This is thee problem with Republicans, a total inability or unwillingness to admit you were wrong about something in the face of unassailable facts“?
Like I said: Projection.
Poor baby.
Drumwaster (5ccf59) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:36 amWhere? What are you talking about it? It would help if you quoted the things I was saying if you’re going to talk about them. Do you see how I do it? Doesn’t it help?
My ‘tough guy pose?’ What the hell? I mean, really, what the hell? George Bush is retarded, and it’s not because I disagree with him, it’s because he’s retarded. I’ve seen enough to make that call.
Do you know anything about the genesis of that little debate? Were you there from the beginning? I crushed DRJ.
Who’s the one that’s so desperate to categorize me? Who’s the one carrying on about my ‘Daddy’ issues?
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:41 amI could quote the entire WLS post from last week, sure. But that’s unnecessary. All one needs to do is click the link armed with the knowledge that Obama raised $52 million, and you can see for yourself how absolutely ‘wrong about everything’ he was.
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:46 amQuite the fantasy life you have going on there. Tell us more about how you proved that Wright isn’t a racist, because the only argument you used was “you’ll never convince me!”
How high a rank was your mom’s roommate again?
Drumwaster (5ccf59) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:52 amWow. You sure showed me, like you “crushed” DRJ.
That was funny, truly it was.
I finally get it: you are a performance artist.
Anyway, have fun storming the castle. Gotta book.
Eric Blair (02ec00) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:54 amPopping in on a work break; some amusing posts here today.
Comment by Levi — 7/18/2008 @ 8:09 am
Ah, I see the problem. You read the first word and didn’t go any further. I will explain this this time, and in the future when responding to you, Levi, I will actually use, not just imply, all the words implied by my context so that it’s clearer for you:
Basically, yes, “College is retarded” and a “pyramid scheme” being just one example. Haven’t read all your postings but I remember that one pretty clearly – most people know that you get out of college what you put into it. That one dismissive comment alone (and I’d be willing to bet there are others) indicates the general attitude Eric Blair was talking about, if not the exact words. And I agree with Eric’s post above.
I trust that’s clearer.
no one you know (1f5ddb) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:59 amno one you know – Admirable, yet futile. You could go stand next to a brick wall, yell at it at the top of your lungs, and have a better chance of the brick wall responding with the Gettysburg Address than to get Wrangler to engage in introspection.
Racists.
JD (5f0e11) — 7/18/2008 @ 9:13 amRacists.
Comment by JD — 7/18/2008 @ 9:13 am
LOLOL
“I crushed DRJ.” – Levi.
Ah, this is why I come back – for teh funny.
If it’s not too personal, I wonder if Levi wouldn’t mind telling us what he did with the $20 he won?
no one you know (1f5ddb) — 7/18/2008 @ 9:16 amno one you know – I suspect he bought a new cape for his Dungeons & Dragons role playing club.
“I crushed DRJ”
I almost had a motor vehicle accident when I read that.
JD (5f0e11) — 7/18/2008 @ 9:23 amLEvi @ 28
Are you just bad at math?
Can you calculate $52 million x 5 months?
Do you think the Obama campaign wants to be in a position of having to raise $50+ million in October?
I’m not setting the goal posts for him, I’m simply saying that a general campaign wants to run based on money in the bank, not money yet to be contributed. Fundraising takes time and effort — many of those deep pocketed contributors are in New York and California. How much time does the campaign want to spend in New York and California, two states he has locked down?
You know what else was missing from the campaign’s disclosure — the amount of money and number of contributors from the internet. The campaign has trumpeted these numbers in the past as the heart its grass roots fundraising prowess. Yesterday they didn’t break out those numbers, so there is no way to know how much of the $52 million came from Hillary supporters writing $2600 checks, and how much came from small donors who can be tapped again.
Lots more questions than answers yesterday, and they needed that number to come in higher than $52 million.
Point out in my post last week where I predicted anything?
wls (02df99) — 7/18/2008 @ 9:23 amHi wls: I’m very interested in seeing how this campaign funding issue works out. So I appreciate your posts.
As for you-know-who, I suspect he really is a “performance artist” as opposed to someone who wants to discuss or debate. It’s all about the fighting and the sneering and “superiority.”
To coin a phrase, his posts are “retarded.” I wouldn’t waste a femtosecond on him…but there are many other posters (both folks who agree and disagree) who do appreciate your thoughts on this important and complicated subject.
Eric Blair (c8876d) — 7/18/2008 @ 10:33 amRacists. And retarded. The whole lot of you.
😉
JD (75f5c3) — 7/18/2008 @ 10:49 amThat’s funny, JD. I think that there is genuine epidemic of hypocrisy among the “yoot” of America these days. No, not everyone. But many seem to want everyone to be sensitive to them, but at the same time want the “right” to “speak truth to power.”
Honesty is not the same thing as tactlessness.
More to the point, fewer and fewer students appear to “own” what they do, good or bad. I understand not wanting to “own” getting a bad grade; that’s just human nature.
But I recently had a student who had done quite well on a exam, and I congratulated her. She shrugged and said “I was lucky.” And when I corrected her that her hard work had paid off, it was as if I was speaking Esperanto or something.
At first I thought she was being Amish, and didn’t want to receive a compliment. But I have come to see that our society has encouraged students not to see that their hard work matters, and when bad things happen, why, that is due to someone else’s fault.
So I get lots of freshmen who refuse to come prepared to class, don’t study, and then do poorly on exams. Even though the class averages show it is THEM who is doing poorly, they argue that they (i) have a different learning style, (ii) the subject matter is boring, (iii) life is unfair, and so on.
Why, they will even say things like the class or professor is “retarded.”
My favorite recent incident was this fellow who I swear was stoned every morning. Sat at the back of the class, and chuckled groggily and chatted with his friends. When pressed, he would try to come up with a challenging question, which was never well thought out. Not a bad guy, but waaaaay overconfident. Mom and Dad had spent so much time patting him on the head that I genuinely worry about his future…unless he works for Mom and Dad.
Anyway, he talked so much in class that other students complained (hey, it is their tuition money, too). So I sent a polite e-mail the entire class, naming no names, asking folks to please keep personal conversation to a minimum in class—out of respect for the other students. Questions about the material I am always happy to answer. That sort of thing.
The stoned student e-mails back instantly with this classic response (word for word, by the way): “I dont apreciate being treated like i am in high school. i can sit where i want and talk if i want. if someon has a problem they shoud face me.”
Remember, I didn’t name names at all. But he sure showed a mature attitude. The sensitive but aggressive bit is typical, too. And he earned a poor grade in class. And guess whose fault his bad grade is? That’s right, mine.
Except he failed another class in another department. That professor was bad, too.
Sigh.
It’s just lack of ownership, while at the same time demanding all kinds of respect that is not earned.
And that is fine in college. It’s what tuition pays for. But the sad truth is that life doesn’t reward that attitude.
Sorry for the long post. It is on my mind for obvious reasons.
Eric Blair (2708f4) — 7/18/2008 @ 11:56 amEric, I guess all of those Self-Esteem programs are paying dividends?
Another Drew (8018ee) — 7/18/2008 @ 12:15 pmEric – Why must you oppress teh stoopid?
JD (75f5c3) — 7/18/2008 @ 12:22 pmBut I never said authority figures are stupid, classes are unfair, or the system is rigged though, did I? I mean Jesus Christ… that is literally the only thing I’ve ever said about college while I’ve been posting. Your ‘one example’ is the only example, I promise. Eric Blair is making shit up.
First off, you must have a short-term memory, even you previous “You don’t have to read something to know its contents. I’ve gotten A’s on papers I’ve written and tests I’ve taken about books I’ve never read.” easily disproves your claim.
College is retarded. The broader American education system is retarded. You don’t need to look any further than how low we rank when compared to the rest of the developed world. We have chosen one of the dumbest people I’ve ever seen to two terms for President, also.
Don’t put words in my mouth.
Nice to have your BDS there too. I don’t care to actually look at this claim, perhaps you can provide me a link with the facts that compares our low ranking to the rest of the developed world. I’d love to be informed.
G (722480) — 7/18/2008 @ 12:39 pmG – Don’t forget using the title of a book as proof of an assertion. That was one of my favorites.
We are teh stoopid. That is why people literally line up to come here.
JD (75f5c3) — 7/18/2008 @ 12:53 pmHey Another Drew:
Self esteem sounds nice…but unless it is accompanied by accomplishments, well, you get some of the issues we have discussed.
JD, I keep hoping that teh stupid will make different mistakes than I made at nineteen.
Eric Blair (2708f4) — 7/18/2008 @ 1:00 pmYes apparently the U.S., leader of the free world, if full of morons, yet apparently, the morons are only morons if Levi disagrees with them.
G (722480) — 7/18/2008 @ 1:01 pmJust out of curiosity, why would you make this assumption? Do you honestly think that those kids are any wiser at that age than you were? (I don’t say “smarter”, but “wiser”.)
Society changes. People don’t.
Drumwaster (5ccf59) — 7/18/2008 @ 1:04 pmUnfortunately, Levi suffers from a malady that seems to be incurable. It is a rare combination of end-stage BDS, aggressive ignorance, youthful vigor, all melded with a tenuous grasp on reality.
I crushed DRJ.
This is the comment of the day.
JD (75f5c3) — 7/18/2008 @ 1:08 pmOh, my mistakes at nineteen—heck, at 40—cost me dearly. I’m a father, and I wish to save my children (my students, too) those costs.
At the same time, my own father told me that the only lessons that stick with you involve cost.
Fluffy bunny of me, to save them the cost of tuition in the School of Life.
Eric Blair (2708f4) — 7/18/2008 @ 1:34 pmAs for “crushing” DRJ, here is what she said at the end of that particular exercise:
Yep. That sounded crushed to me.
Eric Blair (2708f4) — 7/18/2008 @ 1:38 pmI crushed DRJ.
ARE YOU FUCKING HIGH!!!!!
daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 7/18/2008 @ 2:18 pmGood lord. What the hell is this?
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/18/2008 @ 4:26 pmYou weren’t around for the beginning of that particular exercise though, were ya? The part where she got crushed.
The ‘official debate’ was a joke. Patterico was just arbitrarily adding new rules. There were more than 200 comments about crap like gas prices and international economics before I even stepped foot in the thread. There were two separate threads and he wasn’t updating the one like he said he was going to.
It was silly. There was no format, I didn’t like the rules, and my objections were completely dismissed. Now I wanted to do this, and I’d still be willing to do it, if it were more structured and orderly. I mean Patterico himself held an on-line debate with some L.A. Times reporter that was way more organized than this. I wonder if he would have agreed to do it if it were relegated to an un-moderated public comments system?
She didn’t impress me at all with what little we had going. But the thing just fizzled out. It never even got off the ground. That thread has more comments about random politics than anything else.
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/18/2008 @ 4:36 pmWell, something is sure a joke. It’s not Patterico, and it sure isn’t DRJ.
Eric Blair (2708f4) — 7/18/2008 @ 4:45 pmActually, and I don’t know why I am making the attempt here (based on the answers I predict), I have two serious questions, Levi. No joke, no snark, no insult.
In your life, of what accomplishment or action are you the most proud, and why?
And of what action or accomplishment are you the least proud, and why?
True, answering those questions seriously doesn’t lend itself to insult and profanity and general rudeness. But you clearly feel people don’t understand or know you, and don’t appreciate you. Here is your chance.
Again, this isn’t about a smartalec question, or playing games. I’m very serious.
If you are going to play troll-boy some more on this subject, no need to reply.
Eric Blair (c8876d) — 7/18/2008 @ 4:55 pmYet you agreed to them. Are you trying to rewrite history again?
Don’t make me go find the exact comment, Levi, because I’ll bludgeon you with your own words if you try to weasel out of it now…
You’ll regret ever trying.
Drumwaster (5ccf59) — 7/18/2008 @ 5:04 pmLevi reminds me of every student I had when I was teaching at the local community college who couldn’t read the assignments, and couldn’t get his homework done, whining about how his own failures were everyone else’s fault.
In fact, I’m starting to think that Levi was the actual student who complained to the department chair that I “was prejudiced against people who didn’t show up for class and didn’t do their homework”.
SPQR (26be8b) — 7/18/2008 @ 5:16 pmWhat’s the matter with you? I know I agreed to them, that doesn’t mean I liked them. I tried protesting, but Patterico said I could take it or leave it. And I gave it a try for a few days, but it turned out exactly how I thought it would.
I’m not weaseling out of shit.
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/18/2008 @ 5:58 pmAnd you remind me of Eric Blair, who has been saying the exact same thing all day.
Way to go, SPQR. You can regurgitate other peoples’ put-downs!
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/18/2008 @ 6:04 pmNo, Levi, its that both of us are reminded of our experiences with such students by your lack of character.
SPQR (26be8b) — 7/18/2008 @ 6:05 pmAw.
Levi (74ca1f) — 7/18/2008 @ 6:06 pmAnd you accepted them, with Eyes Wide Open.
With you getting your ass handed to you, because you didn’t do what you had agreed to do. If you had actually made any qualifying statements, Patterico would have moved them to the new thread.
You just said what you had to say (“you’ll never convince me”), and then ran away as fast as your chubby little paws could carry you.
Now you’re trying to claim that you won? Puh. Leeze.
Drumwaster (5ccf59) — 7/18/2008 @ 6:07 pmSPQR – I have had Taco Bell shits with more functioing grey matter than the ‘Tard of Thunder.
JD (5f0e11) — 7/18/2008 @ 6:08 pmMore character too, I’ll bet, JD.
SPQR (26be8b) — 7/18/2008 @ 6:24 pmLevi,
I don’t consider it a winning debate tactic to reply to my arguments by saying, “Again, it hasn’t been demonstrated to my satisfaction that Wright is a racist.” You might as well say: ‘I’m right because you’re a Republican and “Republicans and their positions are often hypocritical, dishonest, contradictory, and illogical.”‘
Oh, wait … those were your responses to my arguments.
I don’t care that you left the Jeremiah Wright debate unfinished but you apparently think my willingness to let you leave that discussion without criticism means I won’t stand up for myself. You’ve mistaken my courtesy for cowardice. So either find two long-time Patterico commenters who agree with your statement that “I crushed DRJ” in our discussion at DRJ-Levi Debate Obama and Wright or consider yourself banned for 10 days.
DRJ (92ca6f) — 7/18/2008 @ 6:59 pmThe whiny little crap weasel can sure manufacture excuses can’t he?
daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 7/18/2008 @ 6:59 pmGoodbye Levi
daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 7/18/2008 @ 7:01 pmBravo, DRJ, bravo.
SPQR (26be8b) — 7/18/2008 @ 7:05 pmI’m gonna miss him, and the sooner I start missing him, the better.
Drumwaster (5ccf59) — 7/18/2008 @ 7:07 pmgetting back to the original posting –
seaPea (cefdc3) — 7/18/2008 @ 7:20 pmI’m not saying this is what happened with the Barak campaign, but if an entity would have had an out of character delay in reporting financial statements like this , we would have looked to see if they were shuffling paperwork in order to get the accounting to where they wanted it and not necessarily the real economic facts on the ground.
I gave you a friendly warning, Levi, that this exact thing was going to happen. “Just a little…too…far.” I’m glad you’ll only be gone for 10 days; maybe your civility skills will improve and we can finally have the benefit of your real conversation and ideas.
no one you know (1ebbb1) — 7/18/2008 @ 7:21 pmYeah, SPQR, he did sound awfully familiar, didn’t he? And just like those students, things don’t always work out so well—despite all the swagger.
My father always warned to make sure that my mouth didn’t write I check I couldn’t cash. Pithy and true.
DRJ, I am sorry that you had to deal with this. You are patient, thoughtful, and respectful of opinions that differ from your own.
Eric Blair (02ec00) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:30 pmOh, and we will all probably hear that you-know-who has been censored. Sigh. Insisting on civility from verbal bullies is not censorship.
We have all seen this before on the ‘Net, and it is never fun.
Eric Blair (02ec00) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:31 pmHappy trails, Mr. Sunny.
Paul (ae2fbe) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:37 pmEric Blair,
I think Levi will claim he is being censored for winning our debate. That’s one reason I didn’t ban him outright but, instead, gave him the option of finding two commenters who share his opinion. If he won our debate so convincingly that he ‘crushed’ me, it shouldn’t be hard to find one or two long-time commenters who agree.
Levi believes he won because he stated the conservative position more quickly than I stated the liberal position. However, the only contest that matters is the debate that occurred after we agreed on those positions. We’ll see if anyone else agrees with Levi that he convincingly won that debate.
DRJ (92ca6f) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:45 pmLevi believes he won because he stated the conservative position more quickly than I stated the liberal position. However, the only contest that matters is the debate that occurred after we agreed on those positions. We’ll see if anyone else agrees with Levi that he convincingly won that debate.
Comment by DRJ — 7/18/2008 @ 8:45 pm
DRJ,
I know that you understood the rules but there is no way that Levi could think he “won.” Was there any stipulation that who stated the other side’s faster “won?”
I thought that when both stated the other’s position to their satisfaction, then the debate moved to Part 2. And the rules were really laid out: 10 posts, links, etc. etc. How Levi could claim there was ambiguity is really baffling, unless he was interested only in declaring his own superiority even if he had to misstate (or misunderstand) what the actual rules were. Which, in my opinion anyway, is the case.
Used to firmly believe that Levi was capable of intelligent, informed liberal discussion if only he could just lose the attitude. The more I see of his posts–well, let’s just say that now I only hope it’s true.
no one you know (1ebbb1) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:53 pmI finished compiling the comments. Let me know if I missed any.
I haven’t read through it all, but I scanned it for links. I count one comment by Levi with a link. He has lost the challenge as far as following the rules goes, and he can kiss his ten dollars goodbye.
I suspect Levi is a young fellow not in the job world. He needs to understand that in the real world, you have to follow rules. If you can’t read them, understand them, and follow them, you won’t get anywhere.
Patterico (cb443b) — 7/18/2008 @ 9:15 pmMore likely, Patterico, Levi will always be the kind who, when faced with any challenge, will respond by throwing his hands in the air and sulking.
SPQR (26be8b) — 7/18/2008 @ 9:17 pmI suspect you’re right, Pat. The really sad thing is that if Levi can’t hack working for someone, he’s even less equipped to run his own business.
You still have to follow the rules when you’re running the company, it’s just that the rules are different. One important rule is that you never call your customers stupid, or belittle them for questioning you — even if you happen to be right.
Let’s see…he isn’t working for someone, he doesn’t have the people skills to ply his own trade. About the only thing he can be is an embalmer, because that’s the only line of work where his customers won’t complain.
Steverino (1dda08) — 7/18/2008 @ 9:28 pmDRJ and Patterico:
Thanks to you both for trying to keep things civil and productive.
I am eternally bemused by people who think it somehow brave or strong or hip to be crude and insulting. Now, it is true that it takes several people to create that environment…but I haven’t seen a post by Levi that didn’t have elements of simmering resentment, faux-superiority, and childish insult as part of it.
I had hoped that the debate challenge would demonstrate that I was wrong, and that the fellow would rise to the occasion and use his intelligence and clear passion to prove his points and defend his position with civility and clarity. We all could learn from that, I think.
Instead, we got to read bluster and childishness. And Levi was clearly moving toward insulting people who had never, not once, been rude to him.
Several of us are college teachers, and we recognized this fellow’s style from the get-go. Smart, entitled…and not yet aware of ownership nor consequences. After graduation, it will be a sad world for those folks, unless they change a bit.
I see young women and men waste years of their lives this way. Don’t get me wrong. There are snotty little jerks who eventually straighten up as life roughly teaches reality (heck, I was one of those snotty little jerks). There are also great students, too, who never make the mistakes I did.
But almost everything we read in this little Internet drama, I would wager, was colored by Levi’s overcompensation and anger over missed opportunities. The usual way I see it is a smart, capable person who earns poor grades (most often due to work ethic and overconfidence problems). This sets up resentment, especially in our “no responsibilties” culture. And what all of us who teach undergraduates hear from such students sounds very similar to what we have been reading from Levi.
I hope that the fellow straightens out. He is smart. And I suspect it would be have more or less okay to argue back and forth. The snark and rudeness, however, seemed to add to the problem.
Anyway, when I was a “young punk” still acting out the tough guy pose from false macho and high school debate team nonsense, there was no forum like this one. So Patterico and DRJ, thanks again for making the attempt. Honestly, this is his loss, since I learn a great deal when I read or post here.
Eric Blair (02ec00) — 7/18/2008 @ 9:30 pmThe ‘official debate’ was a joke. Patterico was just arbitrarily adding new rules.
Mr. Banned, you agreed to the rules. It cannot possibly be considered arbitrary when you agreed.
Patterico (cb443b) — 7/18/2008 @ 9:34 pmSteverino: I strongly suspect you-know-who acts quite differently face to face with people. He may have a decent part time job and do well with people—again, face to face, instead of a cloud of electrons. Much of what he posted seemed, to me, to be about compensation and playing a self-chosen role.
I could be wrong, of course.
Eric Blair (02ec00) — 7/18/2008 @ 9:34 pmEric Blair, wasn’t there a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode along those lines? With Dwight Schultz as the main character?
Steverino (1dda08) — 7/18/2008 @ 10:52 pmThe sadly nerdish part, Steverino, is that I know the episode. Except Barclay was always a decent fictional fellow.
Hey, maybe Levi is, too! A decent fellow—not fictional—I mean.
Eric Blair (02ec00) — 7/18/2008 @ 11:09 pmJust saw this:
OMG.
SPQR, what was the department chair’s response to that?
Paul (ae2fbe) — 7/19/2008 @ 3:55 amComment by Paul — 7/19/2008 @ 3:55 am
Dunno, but I hope it was:
no one you know (1ebbb1) — 7/19/2008 @ 6:05 am“Indeed.” *troubled look* Then, strolling with student to the door, hand on shoulder, “Thank you for coming to me. I will most certainly be discussing this matter with Professor X.” *loud hearty laugh as office door slams*
And it takes until July 19 to add up the money??? BULL. There is an African American in the woodpile here and no one seems to be commenting on it. My guess is that Barry Husseins campaign needed a 45 day month–June 1 thru July 15–in order to make the figures come out nicely. Let’s see….big money and America hating criminals in charge of it. Nah, no possible problem there.
OLDPUPPYMAX (d671ab) — 7/19/2008 @ 1:39 pmPaul, evidently a look of stunned surprise with the realization that the student was serious.
Students now think that the word “discrimination” is automatic ticket to what they want.
SPQR (26be8b) — 7/19/2008 @ 8:14 pm