Radley Balko: I Don’t Personally Experience a Problem with Illegal Immigrants in Alexandria, Virginia
I’m seeing a lot from the comments section about how people who defend illegal immigrants “don’t actually have to live with them.”
I’ll go ahead and call bullshit, here. Ryan Sager wrote a nice piece back in 2006 pointing out that, in fact, the regions of the country most hostile to immigrants (legal or otherwise) tend to be the areas with the fewest immigrants. And American citizens who actually live among higher concentrations of immigrants tend to have much higher opinions of them. There are exceptions, like Prince William County, Virginia. But in general, exposure to immigrants tends to demystify them.
Hey, I have a high opinion of a lot of illegal immigrants. They tend to have a great work ethic, for one thing. And they’re plenty demystified to me. But I still consider illegal immigration to be a problem.
But then, I live in L.A. I don’t live on the front lines of the immigration problem like Radley Balko:
I happen to live in the Chirilagua area of Alexandria, Virginia, home to the largest Salvadoran population in the U.S. The only time I‘ve ever felt unsafe in my neighborhood was after an unfortunate altercation with a U.S. citizen, not an immigrant. In fact, regular exposure to immigrants (and yes, most of the immigrants in my neighborhood are illegal) has only made me more fond of them. They work hard. They’re exceedingly polite. They want a better life for their kids. They sell delicious pupusas. What’s not to like?
I dunno. Overwhelming the freeways, the jails and prisons, the school systems, and the emergency rooms? How about that?
But of course, Balko doesn’t see these issues as problems, because he doesn’t experience them:
If there’s been some massive drain on Alexandria’s public health system, I haven’t felt it.
Right. Because you’re in Alexandria, Virginia.
Well, if it doesn’t affect him, clearly it is not a problem.
JD (75f5c3) — 6/11/2008 @ 6:02 amAt the core of all successful societies is the assumption that most of the people will obey the law without being forced to obey it. The society as a whole cannot bear the cost of watching everyone, all the time. Many elements in our society, however, have the opinion that certain things are not “wrong” even if they are illegal. If they can get away with something, it is a victimless crime. Communities all across America have been hurt by this shift in thinking. The burden that illegal aliens place on society is onerous, costly and permanent. And the politicians don’t care. And the illegal aliens don’t care. The the people who profit from this criminal activity don’t care. So millions of people have their lives permanently disrupted and degraded, and no one cares about them because illegal immigration is “good” for some people, even though it is illegal.
tyree (e24364) — 6/11/2008 @ 6:08 amI hardly go through a day where I don’t feel a great sadness for the community I lost. It has now been 2 years since I heard people walking down my street speaking English. The fact that that change was done illegally makes all the difference to me, but it doesn’t seem to bother a lot of other people. All crime profits someone, usually the criminal. If Radley can’t see the damage in his community, he is blind. If Radley can’t see the damage that 30 million illegal aliens and their do to communities all across America then he is lying.
I doubt he has ANY experience with the public health system. I have spent the last 40 years dealing with them and most of them are nice people. They fill our County hospitals and ERs and freeways but they are nice people. I don’t hate them; I just wish they would go home. Legal immigrants, the ones who obey the law, are educated and can contribute to society, are welcome. have a sneaking suspicion that legal immigration is kept maladaptive to provide an incentive for illegals to be tolerated.
It’s a bit like the Chicago Police Department in the old days when I lived there. Salaries were kept low to make it cheaper to bribe them. When I came to California, I was shocked to find that a ten dollar bill handed over with my driver’s license got me a furious lecture from the officer. Of course, that was the old LAPD that was so proud.
Mike K (2cf494) — 6/11/2008 @ 6:12 amRadley can have this comforting thought, also. Without respect for the law, the illegal aliens will eventually stop immigrating to Alexandria, Virginia of their own accord; when living there is worse than living in El Salvador. That’s what happened to my neighborhood. The schools and overcrowding eventually got so bad that not even the illegal aliens wanted to raise their kids here, and the population eventually started to stabilize.
tyree (e24364) — 6/11/2008 @ 6:34 amBefore you go shooting your mouth off, you ought to do a bit of research. Or at least read the post.
Northern Virginia has one of the fastest-growing immigrant populations in the country — and has one of the 15 largest first-gen immigrant populations in the country. And as I mentioned in the post, my neighborhood includes the largest Salvadoran community in the U.S.
The main thoroughfare through my neighborhood includes two day laborer pick up points, and a couple dozen Hispanic bakeries, restaurants, grocery stores, and other businesses. Chirilagua is in fact almost entirely Hispanic.
You’re also wrong about illegals “overwhelming” jails and prisons. Study after study after study has shown that immigrants are more law-abiding than U.S. citizens.
http://americas.irc-online.org/am/4903
My point was simply to refute the argument that people who stick up for illegals “don’t have to live with them.” I do live with a high proportion of illegals. And I rather like it.
Radley Balko (1f1495) — 6/11/2008 @ 7:26 amLegal immigrants, yes. But we’re talking about illegal immigrants, who, not so much. Legal immigrants have something to lose by breaking the law, and great incentive not to do so. Illegals, again, not so much. And given that each and every one of them, by definition has broken the law, that group has a 100% crime rate out of the gate.
Pablo (99243e) — 6/11/2008 @ 7:33 amWhat percentage of them are illegal? I live in close proximity to one of the the largest Dominican communities, and several Dominicans are included in my extended family. They’re great people and I’m glad to have them. They’re also overwhelmingly legal and many of them are US citizens.
Pablo (99243e) — 6/11/2008 @ 7:38 am“I do live with a high proportion of illegals. And I rather like it.”
Bully for you. But you don’t live with a high *number* of them, and that’s the difference. You’re not on the front lines, and since you seem to reason from personal experience only, that skews your perceptions.
Speaking of doing research:
In this post I talked about a Cato Institute study that
As I pointed out:
California has a prison overcrowding crisis. In this post I examine numbers that suggest we wouldn’t have one if it weren’t for the millions of illegals in California.
In Los Angeles jail sentences are a joke because of overcrowding at the jails. But in this post I examine numbers that show we could deport 34,000 illegals a year from L.A. County jails. Not having them here would change things, a lot.
You live in an area with some illegals, and you like it. But in other areas of the country, their sheer numbers are creating a crisis in the schools, the jails, the prisons, the ERs, and the freeways.
But you wouldn’t know about that in Alexandria, Virginia. And that’s all you’re looking at. And that’s the point of my post.
Patterico (cb443b) — 6/11/2008 @ 7:40 amAnd study after study has also shown that illegals contribute far more to the economy than they take out of it.
Any short-term problems they present for public services are vastly outweighed by their contributions in other areas of the economy.
See, for example, this Texas study, which finds that the state’s illegal immigrants contribute a net $17 billion to the state economy.
http://www.cpa.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/
Radley Balko (1f1495) — 6/11/2008 @ 7:45 amYou’re also wrong about illegals “overwhelming” jails and prisons. Study after study after study has shown that immigrants are more law-abiding than U.S. citizens.
I nominate this quote as the most disingenuous quote of the day. Conflation of legal and illegal aliens? Check. Ignoring the fact that the crime rate amongst illegal aliens is 100%? Check.
JD (75f5c3) — 6/11/2008 @ 7:48 amAgain, overlooking the mendacity for the sake of argument, just because illegals are not overwhelming jails, prisons, ER’s, etc … in Alexandria does not show that there is not a problem, it just shows that there is not a problem in Alexandria.
JD (75f5c3) — 6/11/2008 @ 7:53 am“Study after study after study has shown that immigrants are more law-abiding than U.S. citizens.”
Classic disinformation here – how can any “study” attempt to document those who, by definition, are unidentifiable? Does the commenter seem to suggest that when illegal immigrants break the law they willingly offer documentation at first request? That sounds very much like wish – fulfillment in overdrive.
Dmac (8b946c) — 6/11/2008 @ 7:55 amHere’s how your linked study goes about determining economic benefit.
First, that’s an, um, interesting methodology. Second, what would the impact be if those workers entered the country legally through a sensible guest worker program?
Pablo (99243e) — 6/11/2008 @ 8:00 amillegal aliens do not weigh heavily on my good humor. i acknowledge that some of them create problems, the criminals and the ones consuming a high proportion of public services, but i’ve always thought that the problem was overblown. i suspect that our government officials who emote the most hysterically about brown hordes overrunning us are doing so to distract our attention from their own leadership failures, and to garner support from those elements of society who fear and distrust people with darker skin who do things a little differently.
i support “deport the criminals first”. i also like tasty, inexpensive meals from taquerias, and would hate to see all the taquerias go away.
assistant devil's advocate (e1ffa4) — 6/11/2008 @ 8:00 amFor a lark, at 7:30 pm wander the halls of an apartment complex that trends towards lower middle class and slightly below.
Mutter at medium volume “INS! INS!”
Sit in a car outside until dark, and watch the exodus…
Scott Jacobs (fa5e57) — 6/11/2008 @ 8:04 am“i also like tasty, inexpensive meals from taquerias, and would hate to see all the taquerias go away.”
Are there no taquerias run by legal immigrants?
Ultimately, though, this captures the attitude well.
To hell with those of us in California who have to pay tens of billions to deal with overcrowded prisons and an overwhelmed infrastructure.
The key is whether aging lechers in Oregon can go to their taquerias, and thin-skinned bloggers in Virginia can have their pupusas.
Patterico (a8f4b2) — 6/11/2008 @ 8:15 amAre you capable of making an argument without insulting people?
The problem, Patterico, is that there aren’t legitimate ways for most low-wage immigrants to come to the country legally. If we had a decent work visa program for low-skill workers, we wouldn’t problems with illegal immigration.
And it isn’t about me eating pupusas. It’s about freedom of association, freedom of contract, and allowing hard-working people to make a living to support their families. That honoring these principles is also a net benefit to our economy, and adds to our rich cultural tapestry is just gravy.
People like you have made the same arguments about every wave of immigrants to come to this country. And you’ve been wrong every time.
Radley Balko (1f1495) — 6/11/2008 @ 8:26 amI was told that between 20 to 29 percent of the prison population is made up of illegal aliens.
Holy Cross Hospital in Burbank sent me a letter last week asking for donations to help cover the cost of the 15,000 patients they cared for who didn’t pay last year.
TB had been eradicated here in Los Angeles, but has now come back because of illegal aliens. There is now a problem with “bathtub” cheese made by illegal aliens that carries a strain of TB that is drug resistent. It can’t be cured.
The two illegal aliens hired by the drywall contractor who hung drywall when I had some termite damage repaired did such a bad job, I had to ask the contracter to send them home and replace them with workers who knew what they were doing. I knew they were doing a bad job because I had hung drywall when I was in college.
I remember the “day without an illegal alien” a couple of years ago when there was no traffic going to work. It was such a big deal that many radio stations talked about it.
Many high school and college students can’t find summer jobs because the typical summer job is held by illegal aliens.
There are many nice and productive illegal aliens and there are also many who are a drain on our community. The legal immigration process helps prevent the bad and diseased from entering our country. Let’s start by deporting those in jail then like in some states make it difficult to find work which seems to have caused self deportation.
It’s hard to type this on my Treo.
Tanny O'Haley (5f0e11) — 6/11/2008 @ 8:26 amPatterico – When you say “thin-skinned”, do you mean lying?
JD (75f5c3) — 6/11/2008 @ 8:26 amAbsolute mendoucheity on your part, Radley. We have been told by some that you can engage in good faith. So far, you have not proven the ability to do so.
JD (75f5c3) — 6/11/2008 @ 8:27 amWell, this argument by Balko, misses one large point, but hits on another. ada also hits on one point, as well.
For my purposes, I simply can’t distinguish in my everyday life between someonw who has official documents to be here and someone who does not. (And if someone did have legal papers and they ran out yesterday)
Frankly, I don’t care to personally even attempt to distinguish between persons, their current status as legal now, legal yesterday but not today or never legal.
My position as a member of humanity, is to treat them as a fellow member of humanity and treat them with dignity, kindness and charity in my heart.
I love to share in their culture, sample their foods, enjoy their humor and appreciate their talents and skills. On an everyday basis, this is how I would act and respond to any person I come across in my daily travels.
This, of course, has nothing to do with “illegal immigration”. In the slightest. First, I don’t think that the term is an accurate one. The term “illegal immigration” should be reserved for people who intentionally lie on their applications or commit some other act of fraud or deceit in order to gain entry into the country with false papers.
Sneaking across the border and then stealing an identity for purposes of gaining a social security number, living an underground existence beyond the reach of the laws and rules of an orderly society…is more akin to a breaking and entering or home invasion, than it is to paperwork deceit.
I have not the smallest desire to mistreat a “person” based on ancestry, I also have not the slightest interest in encouraging millions of people to invade the borders and create a secret society. These are not mutually exclusive feelings or sentiments.
The trespassing foreigner is not able to ever fully afford himself of our protections, nor is he capable of fully following our laws. He must live under a set of self-imposed…and self-enforced laws that he makes up as he goes along.
This serves neither him, nor us as a country.
This is not about a “person” this is about millions of persons who invade, sneak about, hide and live a secret life filled with the necessity of committing fraud, deceit, conspiracy, …to merely exist from day to day.
A permanent secret underground, incapable of operating in any manner other than clandestine and conspiratorial. The opportunities for mischief abound. They can be taken advantage of by the unscrupulous and they can hide criminality on increasingly higher rungs of the criminal ladder, because to turn in an offender…is to risk sacrificing the whole.
It’s an unhealthy idea to encourage or to lightly dismiss.
Trying to demonize anyone who is not in favor of a secret society of trespassing foreigners hiding out in our midst…is unfair. Some folks are willing to embrace the individual person and their plight, but still not willingly submit to a home invasion.
cfbleachers (4040c7) — 6/11/2008 @ 8:36 am#10 JD-
madmax333 (5ba06d) — 6/11/2008 @ 8:38 amYou are such a racist. Best wear a face shield as I am reporting you to Jerry Rivers. I take it you derive your claim of 100% by defining anyone here “undocumented” as illegal, even anchor babies?
Doesn’t the Statue of Liberty implore us to take the tired and poor? Are we not all god’s children?
People can opine all they want, but don’t polls show overwhelming support to NOT making illegals welcomed? Is that 80% predominately racist? I do know Hispanics here in South Fla. who are legal, but who insist that you crackers are harshly biased against Latinos of any stripe and won’t cut them a break. I love how many I’ve talked insist that Bush is the anti-Christ. Bush, for example, has done nothing to stop Hugo Chavez takeover and increased power grab in Venezuela. America should have socialized medicine and especially get off the cases of people without a green card. They get really ticked when I say go back to your country of birth and help to change the bad sh*t going on there, or if it is so great in those sh*tholes, why are you HERE??? And brown has little to do with it because I get the same attitude from ex-pat euroweenies who, for example, laud Ireland as better than the rotten USA.
In my once middle class OC suburb:
A Hispanic vagrant chased me up my driveway and tried to get into my house, but I scared him away by screaming.
Every day, a parade of illegals walks by my house, chatting on cell phones, pushing stolen grocery carts.
Every week someone comes by with homemade food or baskets of fruit, again with stolen grocery carts, and bangs on my door until I answer it and say, no thanks.
All the Most Wanted in my suburb are Hispanic, last seen escaping to Mexico.
Within a mile of our major intersection, my cousin and his wife were attacked by gangbangers at the movies, there was a huge shootout with two drugged out Hispanics who passed out in their car, and the biggest marijuana bust in CA history.
Say it, I’m lying, I’m a racist xenophobe!
Bradley,
Patricia (f56a97) — 6/11/2008 @ 8:54 amWe have MANY worker programs, but employers don’t want to use them because it’s cheaper to hire them illegally, and this exploitation is aided by those like you who romanticize the whole issue. By your reasoning, the whole world has a “right” to come here and “associate” with us. But I’m sure no bad people, or sick people, will come–just adorable hard working family people like your neighbors.
“The problem, Patterico, is that there aren’t legitimate ways for most low-wage immigrants to come to the country legally.”
No sir, the problem is that there are hundreds of thousands of high – skilled immigrants from the formerly Eastern Bloc countries that have been trying earnestly (via legal means) to immigrate here and contribute to our economy and become legitimate citizens. But they have been consistently stymied by the numerous hurdles (enacted since 9/11) that we’ve enforced in order to make those who wish to immigrate here succumb to a process akin to a marathon run. The blatant unfairness and hypocricy evident among those favoring illegal immigration while ignoring those wishing to enter here under the legal processes betray your true motivations here.
Dmac (8b946c) — 6/11/2008 @ 9:00 amare there no taquerias run by legal immigrants?
i don’t know. do you expect me to query their immigration status when i pick up my enchiladas at the counter? you would have to be out of your mind. this is a case for “don’t ask, don’t tell.”
i grew up in west los angeles, did law school and law practice in northern california, moved to oregon in 2001. i’ve seen all this before. about every ten years, there’s a new wave of hysteria. congresspeople fulminate, foment another law, but as always, mexicans and people from further south continue to arrive and go about their business.
there’s a more basic, fundamental reality than that expressed in your post. you obviously care about the flag, the country and the arbitrary line in the desert. somewhere south of that line is a dirt-poor campesino struggling to improve his family’s way of life, and he’s heard of america and its more bountiful economy, and what he wants to do, naturally, is come here, get a job and partake of some of this bounty for the benefit of himself and his family.
yes, i acknowledge that they’re not all good guys. i supported you on “deport the criminals first” without reservation. i also acknowledge that swimming across the rio grande is technically illegal, but i also have a moral perspective from which to judge the relative seriousness of various crimes, and migration for the economic benefit of one’s family does not seem particularly heinous in my regard. remember also that borders can change over time, and this is nothing to fear if you have a calm, rational approach to things.
speaking of calm and rational, what’s up with this “aging lecher” stuff? are you so bereft of rhetorical ammunition that you’re left only with schoolyard-style vilification? are you aware that you’re aging too (not quite as gracefully, if i may say) at the rate of 365 days/year, and that you should count yourself lucky to continue doing this for quite some time, because you do know what happens to you when you stop aging, don’t you? i don’t know where you got the lechery. a goodlooking woman has always been a pleasure unto mine eye. you posted the pictures, dude. don’t be like the pornographer who blames the market for his actions. i’m willing to forgive a certain amount of the envy that naturally attends older people with youthful appetites and consumption. no telling whether you’ll still be capable of pleasing a woman when you reach my age. i shouldn’t need to remind you that you and i and everyone owe our existences to the fact, hard as this may be to grasp, that one day daddy leched for mommy so bad that he had to have her, and so he jumped her in the bedroom, on the living room sofa, maybe on the hood of a lincoln continental. i acknowledge the existence of lust, and i’m comfortable with who i am, are you?
radley balko is right, as he usually is, i’ve seen and admired his stuff at reason.com. this time, you’re wrong.
assistant devil's advocate (e1ffa4) — 6/11/2008 @ 9:22 amradley balko is right, as he usually is,
He would be, if the world only existed for his sensibilities. And, apparently, for yours too, ada.
For those of us who see beyond our bellies, gonads, and well-manicured lawns; who have a certain view of our country and how we want to leave her for our children; he is not.
nk (4bb2be) — 6/11/2008 @ 9:34 amhow we want to leave her for our children…
i’d like to leave her fiscally solvent, please. this means no borrowing to fight unneccessary wars. it means restoring a sound medicare/social security, or eliminating them while doing equity to the people who paid in. it means a level of environmental stewardship so that our children can enjoy what i have enjoyed. it means preserving our free republic against the inroads of centralized, tyrannical authority. it means continuing to set an example of morality and probity for the rest of the world.
assistant devil's advocate (e1ffa4) — 6/11/2008 @ 9:50 amThen why assume that if not for illegal immigration, the taquerias disappear?
And he can do what millions of his countrymen have done: respect our laws and come to America legally. Hell, we’ll make a full fledged citizen out of him if he likes.
Pablo (99243e) — 6/11/2008 @ 10:01 amThen you wish to either close out boarders completely save to limited legal immigration, or you wish to end all forms of social services from welfare, foodstamps, and WIC to Medicare/Medicade and Social Security, and every since thing inbetween.
You can have either an open society, or a welfare society. If you attempt both, you will bankrupt the country.
Scott Jacobs (fa5e57) — 6/11/2008 @ 10:07 amada, please note that point in America’s history when the fiscal condition of the Federal Government was, in your opinion, “fiscally solvent”; and, what would have to be done – in light of today’s fiscal commitments – to return the Government’s commitments to a condition of fiscal solvency.
Another Drew (8018ee) — 6/11/2008 @ 10:16 amThis could be considered a “blue book” question.
Isn’t that right next door to Murder city, aka Wash D.C., which will require a surge to make it almost as safe as Bagdad? Military style checkpoints are already proposed or in place to keep the good folks away from the criminal folks. Are the Mayor and city officials part of the failed (nationwide) democrat machine? Common sense went that a way.
Scrapiron (d671ab) — 6/11/2008 @ 10:32 amdrew, we were running a budget surplus just before bush #2 got elected, and the prospect was for more surpluses, as one guy said, “as far as the eye can see.” the bush tax cuts and the bush war put an end to that, at the same time as it devalued our currency by almost half. i’ve made a number of cost-saving proposals on this blog, but for starters, we reverse the tax cuts and end the war, even if it means “cutting and running.” that’s not what you wanted to read in my blue book, is it professor?
assistant devil's advocate (e1ffa4) — 6/11/2008 @ 10:33 amada, you’re right to some extent, though I do think the tax cuts increased government receipts. It is clear the the GOP congress combined with a gOP pres spent way too much money before we even discuss the very expensive (and in my view necessary) war. We should have cut domestic spending to compliment the war, and the GOP congress preferred to act like democrats.
A big problem was the Bush utterly failed to communicate why this war is so important.
Balko has a point about the tone of this blog. Patterico’s a very smart guy and he’s fun to read, but he does tend to get personal way to early when he deals with certain other bloggers. It’s actually like reading Andrew Sullivan.
Balko has a legit argument that is not defeated by saying “I live in LA and disagree”. The vast majority of illegals are great Americans aside from the initial immigration crime. A lot of Americans feels this way. Part of immigration reform will take this into account, which is something a lot of immigration activists are very angry about but would be better off to accept.
We NEED Mexicans, frankly. And the crime problem in LA has little to do with illegals and everything to do with the awful law enforcement and government there (if you don’t believe me, go back ten years and it’s blacks that are the problem). LA’s public servants are nearly heroic to bother with their mess, but they need to figure out a better way of doing their job. Exporting every single illegal would not fix LA (and in fact would destroy it).
I want a nation that ignore the elitism of Western Europe. I want the teeming masses yearning to flee Mexico’s horrible government.
Ideally, we would deport all the criminals, and I think Patterico adds a lot to this discussion. But that doesn’t justify his attitude towards those who respectfully disagree with him.
Jem (4cdfb7) — 6/11/2008 @ 10:44 amFor the sake of argument, let’s imagine that there are hackers who, in selfless acts of benevolence, create remarkably advanced macros that intuitively identify useless files that slow down your computer and delete them, without damaging any files that you truly need.
The catch: These hackers only distribute the macros in the form of trojan horses within spam.
Under what circumstance should you, as someone who uses the internet, disable your anti-spam and anti-hacker software in the hopes you will receive the good macros?
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 6/11/2008 @ 10:57 am“Balko has a legit argument that is not defeated by saying “I live in LA and disagree”.”
Actually it is. Balko’s argument was that the people who object to illegal immigration aren’t on the front lines. So all Patterico has to do is prove #1 he lives on the front lines and #2 that he doesn’t like illegal immigration and he “wins”, for whatever its worth.
And come on — are you going to tell me that LA is NOT the center of illegal immigration in the US? I live close enough to Los Angeles (Fullerton is about six miles from the county line and 30 miles from downtown) to personally attest that it is.
As for your broader point that most illegal immigrants are productive hardworking and pleasant folks? Sure, I agree with that. I’ve worked with and socialized with plenty of people who were not here legally and can attest to that. But that wasn’t the point Balko was making, at least not this time.
Sean P (e57269) — 6/11/2008 @ 11:02 amJem-
I want the teeming masses to clean up Mexico’s horrible government. The US is the escape valve for the pressures that build up because of Mexico’s governmental incompetence. Mexico has great natural resources, climate, people. If Mexico’s government were functional millions of its citizens would not be fleeing to the US.
MartyH (52fae7) — 6/11/2008 @ 11:03 amada, Clinton never had a budget surplus, although he was close in fiscal year 2000. http://www.letxa.com/articles/16
luagha (5cbe06) — 6/11/2008 @ 11:39 amHe had projected budget surpluses for ‘if everything continues to go right until 2010’ and the excess Social Security tax-income appeared to cover some of it as mentioned at the website – except that all that Social Security income is money owed later in government bonds.
ada…
You said “…we were running a budget surplus just before bush #2 got elected…”,
yet, when looking up data on the National Debt at
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/NPGateway,
you find that from ’93 to ’02, the National Debt increased every year (marked at 30Sep – end of Fiscal Year), and not once did it decline from one year to the next (nor did it stay the same – it always increased).
If we were running a surplus in the Clinton Years, why is that not reflected in the National Debt totals?
Another Drew (8018ee) — 6/11/2008 @ 11:52 amShouldn’t the numbers have declined when a surplus was generated?
There’s less to this than you all are making of it.
So Balko likes it just fine living among the illegals. Big whoop, big surprise, as he sees no difference between illegals and those in the country legally (citizen or legal alien) other than the illegals violating immigration laws he doesn’t like. Along those lines, I’d guess he wouldn’t have having a problem with the tax cheat, the drug dealer and the prostitute (not necessarily the same person) living around the corner as he doesn’t think much of tax, drug and anti-prostitution laws.
Illegals, apart from their being here illegally, are probably no more or less law abiding or a burden on society than many of those here legally. But that’s not the issue, what matters is whether we’re going to enforce the laws we have and subject those who violate those laws to social stigma, fines and/or prison, or just ignore the laws we don’t like and treat those who violate those laws just like everybody else. I’m in the former camp, Balko falls into the latter.
steve sturm (a0236e) — 6/11/2008 @ 11:59 am“I think Patterico adds a lot to this discussion. But that doesnt justify his attitude towards those who respectfully disagree with him.”
Who is that, exactly? I *think* you’re talking about the guy who came out of the starting gate saying: “Before you go shooting your mouth off, you ought to do a bit of research.” And who, it turns out, didn’t really do his.
I did do my research. Just to take one example, California is looking at shelling out billions to deal with a prison crisis that wouldn’t exist absent illegals. No response to that argument. Just a lot of bluster ignoring my specific facts and links.
Par for the course.
Radley Balko’s pupusas aren’t worth the billions California is shelling out to deal with this crisis.
ada, I thought you’d laugh and plead guilty to the “aging lecher” comment. Hey, we’re all aging lechers. Just, you know, some of us (you) more than others.
Patterico (f3f945) — 6/11/2008 @ 12:06 pmHah – this post made me laugh, cry, hurl. Balko’s become a regular homey ever since he got jumped into MS, eh? I supported some of his crusades in the past, not knowing that he suffered from Sullivan’s Syndrome. No more. Alexandria isn’t East LA by a long shot, but hey, give it time!
rhodeymark (4f2403) — 6/11/2008 @ 12:13 pmWhat are you saying, that there aren’t any illegal immigrants in Alexandria, Virginia?
Levi (76ef55) — 6/11/2008 @ 12:21 pmWhat are you saying, that there aren’t any illegal immigrants in Alexandria, Virginia?
And there, folks, is the disconnect. Levi does not understand even the basics, so how could we ever expect him to have a rational conversation?
JD (75f5c3) — 6/11/2008 @ 12:25 pm“What are you saying, that there arent any illegal immigrants in Alexandria, Virginia?”
Evidently there are not so many that there is any significant disruption to schools, ERs, jails, prisons, or freeways.
All the things that are in crisis mode in Los Angeles.
But they have pupusas in Virginia, so what’s not to like?
Patterico (42d76c) — 6/11/2008 @ 12:29 pmAnd, don’t forget that great Burrito chain HQ’d in Champaign IL.
Another Drew (8018ee) — 6/11/2008 @ 12:31 pmThere are quite a few, and you’ll find plenty of them if you go and work in the D.C./Baltimore in any sort of construction trade. I used to go back there to work for an electrical contractor during the summer, and over three years, I watched my boss fire lazy white guy after lazy white guy to hire illegal immigrant after illegal immigrant. Most of the time, on any given job site, illegal immigrants were the majority of the skilled workers. I know this is just my narrow experience and this is an anecdote and should be taken as such, but these illegal immigrants you’re so worried about are quite literally building most of the infrastructure around our nation’s capital. And they’re doing it because they’re better at it than the white guys.
Levi (76ef55) — 6/11/2008 @ 12:41 pm“Balko’s argument was that the people who object to illegal immigration aren’t on the front lines. So all Patterico has to do is prove #1 he lives on the front lines and #2 that he doesn’t like illegal immigration and he “wins”, for whatever its worth.”
– Sean P
Nope. You’ve got it backwards. By your logic (which is overly simplistic, and which I don’t buy)) Patterico’s argument is that the person who doesn’t object to illegal immigration isn’t on the front lines. So all Balko has to do is prove #1 that he lives on “the front lines” and #2 that he likes illegal immigration and he “wins”.
For whatever it’s worth.
See, Balko was arguing that people would use the “You Don’t Live On The Front Lines, You Don’t Know Shit” argument (referred to henceforth as the Patterico Argument) on him when he did in fact live on the “front lines”. Now, whether or not that’s the case is up for debate, but that’s what this post is really about: Can Balko, living in the Salvadoran center of Alexandria, Virginia, be considered to be “on the front lines” in the same sense as Patterico, living in illegal-laden heart of LA?
Go at it.
Leviticus (6017a4) — 6/11/2008 @ 12:42 pmaging lecher beats aging eunuch. no problem. i just want credit for the gallant, chivalrous restraint i so frequently exercise when, e.g., the pic of the younger sarah palin, i refrained from commenting that i would like to go up to wasilla, wherever that is, and slowly lick all those tiny freckles off her bosom.
thank you jem (#33), you’re right to some extent too.
l.n. smithee, i avoid that problem by whitelisting in my inbox, unless i have configured the account to recognize you, you go in the spam box.
drew, not all of the increments of a national debt increase are “on budget” for that year; when the government sells a t-bill to an investor, it commits to repay the principal and interest, and the principal goes up as debt instantaneously, but the entire obligation isn’t booked as spending in a single year.
pablo, your proposal works great for the few who can navigate the quotas, red tape and interminable delays put up by our consulates and visa offices down there. your namesake, the pablo in oaxaca, just wants to come up here and manicure the lawn/clean the swimming pool/make tamales for a fair wage where i used to live. i have no manicured lawn here in the boonies, no swimming pool (i’d like to put in an outdoor japanese bath at some point though), and last night, i made my own chile rellenos in my kitchen.
assistant devil's advocate (e1ffa4) — 6/11/2008 @ 12:43 pmRadley sez…
“And study after study has also shown that illegals contribute far more to the economy than they take out of it.”
Thanks for ignoring all the individuals from whom the illegals “take out”.
I am tired of people like Radley who treat the whole illegal alien mess as if my family is just some sort of bland statistic.
When why wife was almost crushed in her car by an illegal alien driving illegally with a forged drivers license, no one in my family took comfort in the fact that Radley Balco was getting a delicious pupusa. I don’t care that in the grand economic balance somebody somewhere else is profiting, we are being hurt, every day, due to corruption on the part of the Federal Governments of Mexico and the US. The fact that the Radley Balcos of the world care more illegal immigrants than my wife’s life, is sickening.
tyree (158c98) — 6/11/2008 @ 12:44 pmMaybe the government of El Salvador makes sure that everyone who illegally immigrates to the US knows how to drive, but the government of Mexico sure doesn’t.
Phoenix, Arizona is also on the ‘front lines’ of this illegal immigration invasion. 20% of our inmates are illegals, and you can’t put them with anyone else due to fights (they’ll tear up American hispanics). A friend finds his car gone from the business parking lot, Lojack shows it’s already in Mexico. Welcome to Arizona, the worst state for car thefts. Get hit by an illegal who can’t drive, and watch the police just shrug their shoulders, not even bother to charge them. No license, no registration, no insurance, no habla engles, no problem! Take your daughter to the emergency room with a 103F fever, and find a six hour backup because illegals are getting free medical care, no one is allowed to be turned away while the hospital charges me ten times what it cost because all the freeloaders. My son tries to start a neighborhood lawnmowing business, only to be attacked by illegals that do the yard maintenance and consider my neighborhood ‘theirs’. They ran from me, police shrug again. A family friend lived in Benson, miles from the border. Lived, not lives, because she was robbed or assaulted every other month by the horde pouring over our line in the dirt until she sold her house and moved north. If anecdotes and feelings are worth more than facts, here are some to chew on.
tweell (3d09de) — 6/11/2008 @ 12:48 pmJem sez…
“We NEED Mexicans…”
Yeah, right.
Some people need them, some people don’t. All crime profits somebody, usually the criminal. That doesn’t make it right. We should enforce the laws and make the employers who “NEED Mexicans” pay for their paperwork and benefits, like the law requires. I speak with people all the time (I work in the construction industry) whose businesses have suffered because they won’t break the employment laws. The people who break the law get an illegal advantage and put their competitors out of business.
Our criminals “NEED Mexicans” to keep breaking the law. Law abiding businesses need a level playing field.
tyree (158c98) — 6/11/2008 @ 1:03 pmI am going to save Phil the time and effort and note that any of you that favor enforcement of our laws are racists.
JD (75f5c3) — 6/11/2008 @ 1:20 pm“It’s actually like reading Andrew Sullivan.”
Actually, it’s nothing like reading that manic – depressive, who changes his passionate and hysterionic rantings on a daily basis. And regarding your comments about it becoming “personal,” I suggest you hightail it over to those wonderful, thought – provoking sites like DU and Kos. They make the goings – on over here look like Mr. Rodgers by comparison.
Dmac (8b946c) — 6/11/2008 @ 1:20 pmPatterico, I live in a part of the country with a very high immigrant population, but with only a relatively low percentage of that who seem to be illegal immigrants.
And guess what? We have all the problems you have with schools, prisons, highways (drive the Palmetto Expressway at rush hour sometime), and hospitals (including six hour waits in emergency rooms). And what are the reasons for those problems? Actually, there’s one reason: politicians. Politicians who approved overdevelopment on behalf of their real estate developer donors, but didn’t plan much less build facilities to match the increase in development, and who never funded existing facilities to give them a chance to expand to meet the rising demand.
And I wouldn’t be surprised if California didn’t have the same sort of politicians.
kishnevi (d55d4c) — 6/11/2008 @ 1:50 pmAD – LaBamba is my daily lunch destination.
JD (5f0e11) — 6/11/2008 @ 2:07 pmNo
ICE
E-say
Or la migra
Anyway, So Cal is home to millions upon millions of illegals… Alexandria has two labor pick up points and apparently that makes it all equivalent
SteveG (71dc6f) — 6/11/2008 @ 2:19 pmI thought Patterico’s point… and mine was to say that Alexandria, VA has only a few El Salvadorans. Somewhere around 6000 in a population of around 130,000. How many of those are illegal, this site doesn’t say
http://www.city-data.com/top2/h144.html
Living in a fairly wealthy city with that few illegals hardly qualifies one as any sort of authority.
SteveG (71dc6f) — 6/11/2008 @ 2:35 pmJD…
Another Drew (8018ee) — 6/11/2008 @ 3:36 pmI’m glad that the Mid-West has acquired some cuisine that can actually be enjoyed – unlike Ohio.
Someone told me once that in Ohio, spicy food was boiled beef with salt & pepper.
Couldn’t wait to not go there.
Another Drew, democrats don’t do math, they just spend until the money is gone and then visit people like Soros for a loan.
Scrapiron (c36902) — 6/11/2008 @ 4:30 pmI checked the National Debt months ago and printed it out to show a ‘democrat’ he was full of it. Like any good democrat of the 90’s, I can enter a few million in my check book balance but the check will still bounce. The BDS sufferers are getting beyond funny.
tyree, I’m sorry about your wife, but pretending Balco doesn’t care about victims of car accidents because he notes that Mexican illegals provide billions of dollars of revenue is a bit silly. After all, their lives are often saved by leaving their hellhole homeland, too. Don’t you care about that?
And that’s the fundamental question. Why aren’t we more open to immigration? It’s extremely difficult, obnoxiously difficult, to immigrate to this country. It’s sickening to think of what happened to the original promise of our nation. We are supposed to be a nation of immigrants and immigration. It’s worked out well.
Those Mexicans who barely can read and are willing to work their asses off, in 2 generations, can be brilliant engineers and doctors. We’re giving up a tremendous amount of wealth by not taking everyone we can get. The US is over 90% unpopulated. All the limitations are artificial.
Instead of just exporting freedom to Iraq (which I support), let’s also import the unfree to enjoy freedom here.
That’s outside the scope of the conversation, which was that Balko also lives in a heavily illegal immigrant area but has no problem with illegal immigration generally.
I think the comparison to Andrew Sullivan I made earlier only works on Patterico in a few limited topics, but Balko is clearly one of them. It’s unfortunate, because Patt is such a great blogger. The idiots telling me to go to DKOS and DU If I don’t like this blog (though I do like this blog) are a hell of a lot more like those echo chamber dwellers than I am.
Jem (4cdfb7) — 6/11/2008 @ 4:58 pmI think the comparison to Andrew Sullivan I made earlier only works on Patterico in a few limited topics, but Balko is clearly one of them. It’s unfortunate, because Patt is such a great blogger.
Well, I can’t stay mad at someone who says such kind things as that.
That’s outside the scope of the conversation, which was that Balko also lives in a heavily illegal immigrant area but has no problem with illegal immigration generally.
Well, that’s his point. But *my* point is that, as far as I know, Alexandria does not have a crisis situation with — I’ll say it again — jails, hospitals, prisons, freeways, or schools. Here in California, and particularly in L.A., we *do*. And each of these problems is significantly exacerbated by MILLIONS of illegals — not 6000, but MILLIONS.
So, while there may be a few thousand illegals around where Balko lives, there is not the overwhelming influx we have in California. And for him to describe himself as being on the front lines, and thus set himself up as an absolute authority, is a complete joke — richly deserving of the smackdown delivered in this post.
He has not responded substantively to these points, but instead came in here whining about how I was “shooting my mouth off” without doing research. I provided the research that backed up my claims, and he essentially called me a RACIST! and ran without addressing my points.
Hospitals, jails, prisons, freeways, and schools. With too many people. He doesn’t respond to that point because there simply is no response, it’s so self-evident.
Patterico (cb443b) — 6/11/2008 @ 5:25 pmNeat, but “fastest-growing” doesn’t mean squat. My children, ages 1 and 3, are much “faster-growing” than I am. That doesn’t mean they’re anywhere near my size now.
Neato. Now remind us what percentage of illegal aliens in the U.S. are from El Salvador?
Right, ‘cuz we all know that “study after study” means actual science, not crap churned out by someone with an axe to grind. Even more importantly, we know that if “immigrants” are law-abiding, illegal ones must be, too. Except the part about them being here illegally; presumably, they’re less law-abiding than U.S. citizens about that. Right?
Next time you want to attack someone else for his supposed inability to make an argument without insulting people, you might want to save the “people like you” rejoinder for a separate thread, or at least a separate comment, mmmkay?
Xrlq (62cad4) — 6/11/2008 @ 5:28 pmJem
the scope is that Alexandria, VA living Balko has no idea what a “heavily illegal immigrant area” really is.
I live in a city of 90,000 with somewhere around 12,000 illegals, but I could go down to MacArthur Park in LA on a Sunday, hit a rubber golf ball off a tee and hit more illegals on that one shot than Balko has in his whole town of 130,000.
I don’t know the history of this Balko person or what’s up with Balko and Patterico, but I do know that no one who really lives with illegals would give more than glancing notice to a day labor line until the line to crap in their bushes turns stabby.
I’ve lived, worked, played with illegal Mexicans for 50 years. I have 35 years of construction and agriculture work experience with them. There are subsets of the group I admire the hell out of. They entire class does cause some real negative impacts… some places… like Alexandria, VA for example are affluent enough, with few enough illegals that the impact is relatively insignificant.
That said, I might be willing to cut a deal where some Mexican illegals get to stay if they promise to turn down that awful ranchera music.
SteveG (71dc6f) — 6/11/2008 @ 5:34 pmJem,
“After all, their lives are often saved by leaving their hellhole homeland, too. Don’t you care about that?”
That is hard to deal with, but I have always felt that forced charity is just an other word for stealing. I shouldn’t be forced to sacrifice my families security so someone else can break the law because their government is more corrupt than mine. When they take from me because someone else took from them, how am I to be comforted? I am also very, very tired when I hear about their “tight knit communities”. We had one too, until it was buried under a flood of illegal aliens. Now I am the last person from my graduating class who still lives in the city where I graduated high school. Think about that Jem and Radley. Think about 30 years after high school and you are the only one in the alumni register who lives in the city your high school is in. Yeah, it’s not life and death, but it would have been nice to have the future in my community I though I was going to have, instead of what the illegals gave me.
Identity theft? Check. Hit and Run Driver? Check. State record heroin bust 3 miles away? Check. (The criminals caught with the stuff were from Mexico). Daughter intimidated out of a job by Mexicans who wanted more work for their “RAZA”? Check. (Dude, where my multiculturalism?) Childhood acquaintances gunned down in the streets? Check (Hey whatever happened to what’s his name? …What?)
Those crimes aren’t marks on some balance sheet that can be evened out because someone got helped somewhere else. To way too many people, what my family has endured is OK because “we NEED Mexicans”. Actually, what need need is Justice, but that won’t ever happen. I guess everything my family has endured is the bad Karma coming back to us because of all those years that my father flew down to Mexico to work in the medical clinic for the poor.
Why is it that so many people like Radley and Jen refuse to think about the millions of Americans who have paid a very high price from this criminal sub-culture. So some one gets their lawn mowed at a better price, big deal. California has 20 Mexican nationals on death row for murder.
“Why aren’t we more open to immigration?”
The United States has very liberal immigration laws. It is illegal immigration that I oppose. That is what we are discussing. Let’s do legal immigration another day.
Whatever, no one cares about my community, they are starting to forget it ever existed. My sister moved to Texas and found more native Californians in her new neighborhood than she did in her old.
Seal the border. Now. Before it is too late for your community. Then lets let the citizens of the United States decide what our laws should allow, instead of criminals from other countries.
tyree (158c98) — 6/11/2008 @ 7:14 pm“The idiots telling me to go to DKOS and DU If I don’t like this blog (though I do like this blog) are a hell of a lot more like those echo chamber dwellers than I am.”
Gee Jem, thanks for your worthwhile contribution to the conversation. Nice that you can stay so even – keeled and not resort to name calling in the absence of making any coherent or salient points. But wasn’t your point that our host blogger had resorted to name – calling in the first place?
Cognitive dissonance must be a terrible thing for you to experience, but there you are. Try not to let your brain explode, keep that tin foil hat on real tight.
Dmac (8b946c) — 6/11/2008 @ 7:21 pmDmac sort of has a point. But it’s consistent with Jem’s view of me and Balko: when the libertarian is a jerk, it doesn’t count, even when he’s a jerk first.
Patterico (cb443b) — 6/11/2008 @ 7:26 pmyeah, i’m all for importing more poor people!!
chas (12a229) — 6/11/2008 @ 7:33 pmJem said, “tyree, I’m sorry about your wife…”
Yeah, well she ‘s been gone for 4 years, and dealing with that grief has made me more than a little bitter about the time together the illegal alien took from us. It wasn’t the accident that killed her, but until the day she died she would grab my arm when she heard the sound of brakes. She didn’t deserve to be trapped unconscious in an smashed automobile, and the person who hit her was never caught. Maybe he thinks about her now and then. Maybe he is a careful driver with a wife and children of his own. Maybe he finally killed someone, got caught and is rotting in a California jail, costing the citizens $25,000 a year and more. If I ever do meet the guy, I will forgive him. I don’t want anyone else to suffer the way she did, or the way I have, because someone else wants to break the law.
From were I stand, there IS NO UPSIDE TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. Someone profits from it, but I sure don’t. Enjoy your pupusa, Radley.
tyree (158c98) — 6/11/2008 @ 7:35 pmBecause according to the extreme liberal dogma of multiculturalism and total freedom/license for all people, all the problems of the world are caused by up-tight WASPs and their laws and values. If there was just total freedom everywhere, all those noble “others” would remake our society into a paradise on earth.
Patricia (f56a97) — 6/11/2008 @ 7:35 pmRadley Balco said, “The problem, Patterico, is that there aren’t legitimate ways for most low-wage immigrants to come to the country legally.”
Radley, please, you are already beyond embarrassing yourself. Stop digging.
In 1962 my parents wanted to hire a live in nanny to help her watch the children. My mother wanted to learn Spanish, she loved the Hispanic culture, so they checked with an agency that had contacts with an foreign embassy. My father filled out the paper work and put up a $3000 bond in case our nanny took any kind of federal assistance. The documents specifically stated that government benefits are for citizens, and her right to work in this country did not give her the right to take from the citizens of the USA. If she would have lost her job with my parents, my father would have forfeited the bond and it would have been used to return her to her native land. For her part, her embassy called the house every year to talk to her, my father and my mother, because she was one of theirs, and they were going to make sure she was not being abused. The laws that cover everything my family dealt with are still on the books, Radley. If employers need lots of minimum wages workers to “do the work Americans won’t do”, why can’t those big corporations do what my father did, and obey the law? Our nanny wasn’t a rich, educated, skilled worker but she found a way in that was safe and kept her from being a burden to you, Radley. Those laws still exist, the culture of corruption (Sanchez, Boxer, Feinstein, Schwarzenegger and Villaraigosa)just choose to ignore them. Enjoy your pupusa, Radley.
tyree (158c98) — 6/11/2008 @ 7:59 pmTyree, you just proved Balko’s point.
kishnevi (7a9e8b) — 6/11/2008 @ 8:59 pmNothing was really gained by making your parents fill out that paperwork and putting up $3000. (And in 1962 $3000 was, as they say, real money. My parents paid $11000 for the house I lived in as a kid in 1960, so $3000 was more than their down payment.) It just made it more difficult for the prospective nanny to get here. Now imagine instead of the educated and cultured woman who was your governess, you had an illiterate farmworker who needs to feed his kids back home; and imagine instead of your father, an agricultural company looking for twenty workers. [I’m assuming the details of bond amount, etc. have actually remained the same over the years.] Can the farmworker raise $3000? Highly improbable. Would the company be willing to post $60,000 as bond money? Just as improbable. So the farmworker goes to work for the agricultural company as an illegal immigrant….
For those that have forgotten, or who never knew, the current scheme of regulations re immigration are the work of the Sr. Sen. of MA, written back in the 60’s to de-emphasize emmigration from Europe, and to open it up to the Third-World.
Thanks Ted! You did a great service to your country.
Another Drew (a28ef4) — 6/11/2008 @ 9:28 pmkishnevi –
No, Tyree’s setup assured that the nanny would not cost the government== that is, those not getting services from said nanny– a thing.
She would get no bennies, if she no longer has a job there is a down-payment on her going home.
You are also ignoring who paid the bond– the *employer*. Not your theoretical poor farmhand.
Now, if the work the farm has is truly things “Americans won’t do” then yes, they are willing to lay down the 3k bond, especially since if the worker and employer do not break the agreement, the bond is NOT forfeit.
Now, if they want those poor workers because they can pay them half of minimum wage, and Americans just won’t do the work *for the offered price*….
Foxfier (15ac79) — 6/11/2008 @ 9:32 pmWell, why should we subsidize that farm’s employment, at the cost of the general public?
Kishnevi-
Actually, no I destroyed his point, and you can’t string together the facts well enough to make one. It doesn’t cost $3000 to post a $3000 bond. The employer would pay a percentage of that, not the whole amount. Also, I wrote, “forfeited the bond and it would have been used to return her to her native land”. Air travel is significantly cheaper today than it was in 1962, and Mexico is significantly closer than the country our nanny came from. If my father could obey the law, anyone can obey the law, he is no super human ethical paragon. Remember that, anyone has the freedom to obey the law. They just don’t want to obey the law, because they make more money that way. And the black market, coyotes, gang wars and drug smuggling that goes with the illegal immigrants gets innocent people killed in this country. And too many people don’t care about the victims. They just want their 99c burger, or their votes and they don’t care who has to die for them to get them. That is why the whole “…study has also shown that illegals contribute far more to the economy than they take out of it” argument is such bunk. You can’t balance my wifes life, or that of one of my children, with cheap burgers. At least you shouldn’t, but some people obviously do.
Someone ALWAYS profits from crime, usually the criminal.
tyree (e24364) — 6/11/2008 @ 9:43 pmAnd to open up chain migration. And then you send a relative back to the old country to find a wife, so you also can bring all her relatives too!
Patricia (f56a97) — 6/11/2008 @ 10:16 pmAnd all the while they were telling us to reduce the size of our families to save the ecology. Now the fields and hills I hiked as a child are one more subdivision.
tyree (e24364) — 6/11/2008 @ 10:50 pmdeport them all.
si si puede!
redc1c4 (e3877d) — 6/11/2008 @ 10:52 pm“Using 2000 Census data for the number of foreign-born residents in Texas counties,”
Texas is very different from California. For one thing, its state government is funded by sales taxes so illegals do not get the free ride on state services they get in California. Secondly, Texas has lower welfare benefits and more stern law enforcement.
I love it when people like Balko, who has probably never had his hands in the belly of a drunken illegal who stopped to take a piss in the middle of the highway and was hit by a car, pontificate about the costs of illegal immigration. There have been studies showing the enormous costs.
I have personal experience with the cost to the system. For example, after 40 years of taking care of them for free, I now get paid to review workers comp claims. The ones I see are mostly those which do not meet guidelines for standard care. Sometimes that means they are complicated cases. Most of the time, it means excessive care or fraud is suspected. The majority of the questionable claims I see are those involving people who don’t speak English and most CLAIM second grade education in Mexico. Those latter are illiterate in Spanish, let alone English. We cannot mention the fact that this makes vocational rehab unlikely.
One factor is the fact that employers often use less than adequate safety precautions because the state system will care for those injured. The result a few years ago was a 25 BILLION dollar per year workers comp bill for California. Since the reforms, bitterly fought by the WC bar, the costs have declined and the insurance carriers who left the state are coming back.
Don’t let some effete east coast multiculti type tell you that it is not a problem and that we must import more poor people. As Mike Bloomberg, another expert, said, who would maintain the golf courses ?
Mike K (2cf494) — 6/12/2008 @ 6:28 amAs my father is rather fond of saying..
tyree (e24364) — 6/12/2008 @ 6:32 am“I never needed to go to the gym, taking care of my own yard was great exercise.”
Actually we need at least 50 million more immigrants to this country if we are to keep Social Security and Medicare going as they are currently structured.
Steve Verdon (4c0bd6) — 6/12/2008 @ 11:39 amI take issue with one thing, Patterico. If there were no illegals in the LAUSD, the schools would be mostly empty, not “overcrowded.”
Even today, many LAUSD schools are underutilized. This is mostly a result of the 1970’s busing that drove whites to private schools, and the Serrano decision that made it quite unlikely they would return. Few who can send their children to private schools send them to LA Unified.
While I agree that traffic is the effect that hits most people directly, and would gladly see the situation changed if just for that, I still don’t see the solution of “ship them all back to Mexico” as having ahope in Hell. What solution are you proposing?
Kevin Murphy (f26d7c) — 6/12/2008 @ 8:30 pmKevin Murphy-
I’m guessing that our solution is the same for any other criminals: catch as many as you can.
We haven’t a hope in hell of catching all the theives around– not even all the *murderers.*
So we have the laws, and we actively enforce them.
Foxfier (15ac79) — 6/12/2008 @ 8:58 pmI think rates are what matters. If it could be shown that illegals committed a disproportionally low number of crimes, used a disproportionally low amount of public services, and paid in a disproportionally high amount in taxes, we might could find the means to build the infrastructure to accommodate them.
At a minimum, we should compare rates as a percentage of city or metro area population. All other things being equal, a city with 4 million residents can absorb a hell of a lot more illegals from abroad (or legals from other states, or whoever) than can a city of 130,000.
Xrlq (62cad4) — 6/12/2008 @ 9:38 pmI still say that to treat the victims of illegal immigrant crime as numbers whose suffering can be balanced out by some else’s profit is callous in the extreme.
tyree (e24364) — 6/12/2008 @ 11:07 pm. If it could be shown that illegals committed a disproportionally low number of crimes, used a disproportionally low amount of public services, and paid in a disproportionally high amount in taxes, we might could find the means to build the infrastructure to accommodate them.
A rather silly thought-practice.
Foxfier (15ac79) — 6/13/2008 @ 1:20 amThat result would be skewed since ALL of them are committing a crime, and any service they use would be disproportionate since they are foreign nationals; also, if they’re willing to break the law to get here, and break the laws to get a job, how exactly are we to track their tax payment– since the payroll taxes are all by SSN/ID#– oh, yeah, there’s ANOTHER crime, ID theft.