Patterico's Pontifications

5/30/2008

I Guess MSDNC Has Abandoned All Pretense of Fact-Finding — Latest Casualty is Dan Abrams

Filed under: 2008 Election,Current Events,Media Bias,Morons,Politics — WLS @ 2:24 pm

Posted by WLS:

I’ve watched with dismay as Dan Abrams has lowered himself into the sewer over at MSNBC by going completely in the tank for Obama, and turning the network into a full-time operative of the DNC.  But Abrams is clearly one of the principal players behind that move, as it began after he gave up his prior show a couple years ago to be program director for the network.  I never imagined he was anything but a New York liberal, but in his prior incarnation when his show focused mainly on legal affairs, I found him to be a fair and insightful inquisitor of his guests and their viewpoints.

Abrams new show is only marginally less partisan than Dolpermann’s, but last night he reached a new low for himself.

At about the halfway mark the show he did a segment on the new video that emerged yesterday of the South Side Catholic Priest Michael Pfleger and his ridiculous “sermon” last Sunday at Obama’s church in Chicago.  Pfleger is a long-time ally retired Rev. Wright, and has appeared with and spoken glowingly of Louis Farrakhan.

But Abrams segment was set-up as a blast at Fox News which had been running the new Pfleger video on its various news and opinion programs, and had put the video up on its website.   Here’s part of what Abrams had to say:

ABRAMS:  We‘re back.  It seems the right wing media found a new opportunity to take shots at Barack Obama tonight.  All afternoon and evening, Fox News has been playing and replaying new video of a priest who used to be part of a group called Catholics for Obama.  He was appearing as a guest speaker at Obama‘s Chicago-based church last weekend.  Fr. Michael Pfleger was mocking Hillary Clinton. 

….

ABRAMS:  Obviously, this is idiotic.  But Obama denounced the pastor saying, quote, “As I have traveled this country, I‘ve been impressed not by what divides us, but by all that unites us.  That is why I am deeply disappointed in Fr. Pfleger‘s divisive, backward-looking rhetoric, which doesn‘t reflect the country I see or the desire of people across America to come together in common cause.” 

The Fr. Pfleger came out and apologized, too, saying, “I regret the words I chose on Sunday.  These words are inconsistent with Sen.  Obama‘s life and message, and I am deeply sorry if they offended Sen. Clinton or anyone else who saw them.”

But for Fox News, come on.  This is red meat, tonight, doing their best to make this as big as possible. 

….

ABRAMS:  So is this just a right-wing effort to create an issue or could this actually stick? 

….  

ABRAMS:  But here‘s my problem with it.  And Brad, I want you to listen to this.  Here‘s Brit Hume talking about this tonight.  He led this show with it, then he did it again later in his show on Fox News.  Here‘s what he said.  

BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  The minister Michael Pfleger, a long-time Catholic priest and community activist in Chicago, member until just a few weeks ago of a group called Catholics for Obama, an advisory board of the Obama campaign and a man identified in a “Chicago Sun Times” report four years ago as one of Barack Obama‘s spiritual counselors.   .  

ABRAMS:  A man identified in the “Chicago Times” report four years ago I mean, Brad, isn‘t this a concerted effort by the far right to create another pastor problem for Obama? 

…. 

ABRAMS:  Let‘s just say – I had never heard of this guy before tonight, before we heard about this today and tonight.  Let‘s assume that he says bad things and he‘s not a guy that anyone should support, OK?  Barack Obama has now come out and said, basically, “I don‘t know why this guy said it.  It doesn‘t represent what I think about it.”

…. 

ABRAMS:  But look, this pastor –no one that I think is going to come on this program is going to defend the guy for these stupid comments.  The question is and this is a Fox News front page on the Web from a couple of hours ago, all right?  Let‘s put it up.  Have we got – Oh, it‘s still up there now.  There it is –  “Problem Preacher” from Fox News, leading their Web site with a big picture.  I mean, this is what they want, Brad.  Isn‘t this – I mean this is –

BLAKEMAN:  Come on.  Hey, Dan, if you didn‘t have this video, the video speaks for itself.  The guy is a nut.  And Barack Obama should have known he had past behavior that was less than normal.  

ABRAMS:  All right.  I‘m going to ask you directly, do you think, Brad, that this is a real legitimate – you‘re running Fox News now, all right?  This is the front page of your Web site.  Let‘s assume you‘re actually fair and balanced for a moment, all right…. And that you‘re not just a right wing hack machine.  Let‘s assume for a moment that‘s what you are.  You put this on front page with a big picture and the headline, “Pastor Problem”? 

ABRAMS:  Yes.  All right.  Let me play another piece of sound.  This is again from Fox News, what I view – and look, Brit Hume is a serious guy, well-respected guy on Fox News.  But here he is, in my view, hyping this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUME:  Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is distancing himself tonight from another Chicago minister over a sermon that was preached at Obama‘s Trinity United Church this past weekend.  So, we appear to have a new reverend controversy swirling around the Obama campaign.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABRAMS:  “So, we appear to have a new – “ I mean, it‘s all so – I don‘t know.  I mean, look, we all hype things to some degree but this just seems to me like classic right-wing propaganda….  

First, to simply assume this is a “right-wing” hit job on Obama ignores the one person who has the most to gain immediately — Hillary Clinton.

This video surfaced 4 days after it was shot inside Trinity Church.  Knowing Pfleger’s past, which camp is more likely to have sent someone into that church last Sunday with a camera, just on the off chance there might be something worth recording for posterity? 

She is in the final desparate days of a campaign that right now has a chance to prevail only by peeling superdelegates away from Obama.  Their storyline for weeks now has been “You don’t know what you’re buying” — and this fits that narrative perfectly. 

But, as for Abrams admitted ignorance — isn’t that was segment producers are for?    Here’s how hard it would have been to find a significant piece of information on the relationship between Obama and Pfleger:

ny_times — yep, the pages of the NY freeking Times. 

Before his loss to Mr. Rush, Mr. Obama’s typical response for requests for state money would be a lecture, recalled Dan Shomon, a former Obama aide. “He would say something like: ‘You know what, you’re not going to get your money, and you know why? Let me explain the state budget,’ ” Mr. Shomon said. “Then he’d give a 20-minute treatise on how the Republicans wouldn’t raise taxes, so there wasn’t any money to do what they wanted to do.”

Now, Mr. Obama more eagerly met the demands for spending earmarks for churches and community groups in his district, said State Senator Donne E. Trotter, then the ranking Democrat on the Senate Appropriations Committee. “I know this firsthand, because the community groups in his district stopped coming to me,” Mr. Trotter said.

Typical of Mr. Obama’s earmarks was a $100,000 grant for a youth center at a Catholic church run by the Rev. Michael Pfleger, a controversial priest who was one of the few South Side clergymen to back Mr. Obama against Mr. Rush.

How significant is this connection?  Well, if you read the entire NYT piece, you get a very good review of how Obama rose to power in Chicago politics.  Here’s a brief chronolgy, from the same NYT’s piece:

When Obama went to Chicago in 1985, he worked as a community organizer during the Mayoralty of Chicago’s first black mayor, Harold Washington, who was first elected to the post in 1983.  Washington is Obama’s first political role model.

As a 3rd year law student, Obama sought out an interview with Judson Miner, a famed civil rights attorney for a small firm in Chicago that often clashsed with the Daley political machine.  Miner had worked at the side of Mayor Washington as his Corporation Counsel (city attorney).   But Obama wasn’t interested then in a job with Miner’s law firm, he wanted to know from Miner how it was Washington had navigated Chicago politics to rise to the office of Mayor. 

Obama wanted to run for office reprensenting the Hyde Park neighborhood on the South Side — Chicago’s equivalent to Berkeley, Claifornia.  

“Hyde Park is a liberal bastion of integration in what is otherwise one of the nation’s most segregated cities. Mayor Washington had called it home, as did whites who marched with the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and wealthy black entrepreneurs a generation removed from the civil rights battles of the 1960s.  At its heart is the University of Chicago; at its borders are poor, predominately black neighborhoods blighted by rundown buildings and vacant lots.  

Obama joined Miner’s law firm in 1993, but left to run for State Senate in 1996.

It was through the law firm that Mr. Obama met Marilyn Katz, who gave him entry into another activist network: the foot soldiers of the white student and black power movements that helped define Chicago in the 1960s. As a leader of Students for a Democratic Society then, Ms. Katz organized Vietnam War protests, throwing nails in the street to thwart the police. 

 But in 2000, Obama became impatient to move up in the political world, and began inquiring of his supporters about challenging the incumbent Hyde Park Congressmen, former Black Panther Bobby Rush.  Obama was cautioned against the challenge by just about all his mentors, but he decided to take on Rush anyway, and was crushed in the primary.

But he was backed in the effort by Father Michael Pfleger. 

Father Pfleger has long worked with South Side political leaders to reduce crime and improve the community. But he has drawn fire from some quarters for defending the Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan and inviting him to speak at his church. Father Pfleger … is one of the religious leaders whose “faith testimonials” Mr. Obama has posted on his presidential campaign Web site.

Except its not there anymore.

So Abrams ridicules the news judgment of Fox News for giving prominence to the tape of Pfleger that emerged yesterday, while at the same time acknowledging that he never heard of the guy before yesterday, but without doing even the barest hint of research to determing the closeness of Pfleger’s connection to Obama’s political career. 

Obama rose to power in Chicago politics on the twin engines of the religious institutions in that community, and the Socialist-Progressive establishment based at the University of Chicago.

Abrams comments about being Fox being a “right wing hack machine” strike me as a little self-projection, though he’s too much of a dunce to realize it.

Too bad.   

131 Responses to “I Guess MSDNC Has Abandoned All Pretense of Fact-Finding — Latest Casualty is Dan Abrams”

  1. And too much of a dunce to hide the strings behind the “Left wing hack machine” on MSNBC.

    SPQR (bfa315)

  2. Wright, Pfleger and Farrakhan are birds of a feather and if Abrams had bothered to do even cursory checking he could have found that out and established Pfleger’s ties to Wright and Obama. Using the word hack to describe Abrams is an insult to hacks.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  3. Let’s not forget that when Obama and Wright went off the rails it was Pfleger who “counseled” Obama and who mediated between them. And that he was in the audience for Wright’s national Press Club appearance. What Abrams is trying to say is that he’s out of touch.

    Pablo (99243e)

  4. Abrams knows what he’s doing. It’s a money-making machine!

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  5. I watched the Pfleger video for the first time the other night. My Heavens, it is almost like a minstrel show the way the good Father carries on. Al Jolson would have been proud.

    Let’s take Dan Abrams at his word that he had never heard of Pfleger. One distinct characteristic of the Obamabot is that they try their darnedest to avoid coming into contact with anything that remotely reflects poorly on their candidate.

    JVW (78155f)

  6. Knowing Pfleger’s past, which camp is more likely to have sent someone into that church last Sunday with a camera, just on the off chance there might be something worth recording for posterity?

    .
    Heck. I’ll go one farther. That same Hillary! might well have paid Pfleger for the performance. Off chance there might be something worth recording? Heheh.
    .
    Let’s see Abrams pick THAT one up. It’ll really sell to his audience!

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  7. Can Danny explain why the parishioners that Obama chose to be with for 20 years were so receptive to Pfleger’s message of hate? They were jumping up and cheering at the white bashing.

    Perfect Sense (b6ec8c)

  8. #5 LOL – I just had this image of Pfleger in blackface down on one knee pleading, “OBAMMY!”

    Jack Klompus (b796b4)

  9. Victor Davis Hanson raises that very point today over at NRO — maybe Rev. Wright wasn’t the real problem at Trinity.

    WLS (68fd1f)

  10. Can Danny explain why the parishioners that Obama chose to be with for 20 years
    .
    It’s bad enough when people are invited to associate Obama with the sentiment occasionally expressed by the preachers at his church, but it’s just beyond the pale to associate him with the reaction of the parishioners.
    .
    Can’t he just be an opportunist, who, like the pastors, is using the parishioners?

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  11. cboldt – I have no problem tagging Obama as an opportunist.

    daleyrocks (c4f06f)

  12. Heh…MSDNC…I’m stealing that.

    see-dubya (0ad28c)

  13. It’s bad enough when people are invited to associate Obama with the sentiment occasionally expressed by the preachers at his church, but it’s just beyond the pale to associate him with the reaction of the his fellow parishioners. ~ cboldt

    There, fixed that for ya. Besides, can you imagine TUCC’s covered dish suppers?

    RickZ (8df857)

  14. A couple of points. Some of us have been talking about Pfleger for weeks. (not sure how to find my prior posts here)

    The Pfleger/Wright/Obama ties are there for all to see.

    Haorld Washington’s first choice for Corporation Counsel was James D. Montgomery, not Judson Miner.

    Montgomery replaced Stanley Garber when Mayor Byrne lost in the three way election.

    Miner only replaced Montgomery …was never the first choice.

    Obama was listed in Sullivan’s as remaining “of counsel” to Miner’s firm at least up and through the 2001-2002 edition of Sullivans directory.

    Abrams pretending (along with the rest of the lying leftist media) that Pfleger was a “complete unknown”…is a load of crap.

    Again, some of us have been talking about those ties….for weeks now.

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  15. Again, some of us have been talking about those ties….for weeks now.

    Right. If you missed him during the Obama/Wright falling out, you weren’t paying attention. And I knew about him well before that even though I’m no network news anchor.

    Pablo (99243e)

  16. cfb — all good points. I was just paraphrasing the chronology in the NYT piece.

    You are right about Pfleger being a grenade waiting to go off. The Clinton’s could not have timed this any better if they had planned it. Pfleger goes into Trinity and pulls his stunt one week before EVERYONE is prepared to shove the dirt in on Hillary’s grave.

    But, even better, the video hits the media on Thursday, but the real action goes on all day Friday.

    The WaPo has this up on its religion blog — http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/georgetown/2008/05/pursuing_the_jewish_vote.html

    This lashes Pfleger to Obama just in time for the Sunday gab shows — and its not a holiday weekend.

    It is probably too late for Hillary to peel away superdelegates now — but this may persuade some to not cave in to demands to decide next week and put an end to the contest.

    WLS (68fd1f)

  17. cboldt:
    “It’s bad enough when people are invited to associate Obama with the sentiment occasionally expressed by the preachers at his church, but it’s just beyond the pale to associate him with the reaction of the parishioners.
    .
    “Can’t he just be an opportunist, who, like the pastors, is using the parishioners?”

    Why is it beyond the pale to associate a man with a group of people that he has freely connected himself with for 20 years?

    Just concentrate on that one simple question. Why?

    RayG (8f57d3)

  18. Just concentrate on that one simple question. Why?
    .
    I used sarcasm and accusation in the form of innuendo, back to back, and not that I’m consistent like this, the result represents my personal point of view.
    .
    I think that “hanging out” with a crowd is not a reliable indicator of agreement with that crowd, even when the crowd is a church. But of course, it’s not beyond the pale to associate a person with the crowd he runs with. I was mocking Obama and his supporters.
    .
    I think Obama is a huckster and opportunist. I’m not sure he REALLY buys the black liberation theology schtick, but he found an opportunity in associating with it. I think Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and numerous others make a cottage industry out of stoking a base (and flawed) human sentiment of present and personal entitlement based on historical oppression.

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  19. You run for President of the United States on a micro thin record of actual governmental achievement–he’s basically been in the business of running for office and voting “present”. You sell yourself as a brilliant new personality and orator with wonderful personal qualities. And then you’re surprised that someone notices that you’ve laid down with leftist dogs for twenty plus years–and got up covered with leftist fleas? As my liberal sister in San Francisco would say “Oh please!” Which is libtard talk for don’t say anything bad about my Obama.

    But Dan Abrams doesn’t want to notice the fleas on this puppy named Audacity of Hope.

    Mike Myers (31af82)

  20. I’m less concerned about him embracing Black Liberation Theology than I am about him finding fundamental political agreement with the Socialist-Progressive-Marxist views of the denizens of Hyde Park that he has found such comfort with the last 15 years.

    WLS (68fd1f)

  21. I’m less concerned about him embracing Black Liberation Theology than I am about him finding fundamental political agreement with the Socialist-Progressive-Marxist views of the denizens of Hyde Park
    .
    If I had to pick between which of those two ideologies would be implemented, I would agree 100%. The power of BLT is less than the power of SPM.
    .
    That being said, I’m less concerned about whatever flawed social remedy that Barack Obama finds appropriate (which is sure to jilt the BLT and SPM adherents) than I am about the extent of public gullibility.
    .
    And Dan Abrams gets to make a buck off the same public gullibility. Ain’t America great!

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  22. “… isn‘t this a concerted effort by the far right to create another pastor problem for Obama? “

    Jeez, the far right doesn’t have to create pastor problems for Obama…Obama himself has been doing this for the past 20 years.

    Responsibility is such an ugly word.

    And an equally difficult concept for Abrams to grasp.

    Dana (8225b8)

  23. How does Abrams feel about the parent network leading (okay, technically it was 2nd) with the Pfleger story tonight? Are they in on it too?

    Missed It By THAT Much (612a80)

  24. What I can’t figure out is why these lunatics keep taping their rants! Are they such big megalomaniacs they can’t see the damage they are doing?

    Yeah, Abrams, Obama’s political team is relevant. Supposedly this priest went to Iowa to campaign for Obama.

    I think the IRS needs to look into the tax exempt staus of this church again, pronto.

    Patricia (f56a97)

  25. What I can’t figure out is why these lunatics keep taping their rants! Are they such big megalomaniacs they can’t see the damage they are doing?

    In a nutshell, yes.

    JVW (78155f)

  26. how much of this entire post and thread isn’t just whining that a younger black man with a different approach might be the next president? i have never heard of msdnc or dolpermann before, so i’m not entirely au courant, but i stand by previous comments that folks who do cute misspellings in their persuasions essentially don’t have anything else, they’ve limned themselves as smaller minds executing a preconscious programmed gesture in the honest but vain belief that it will meet with approval, much as a dog humps my leg. can we trade wls to get drj back? i miss drj, she seemed smarter.

    assistant devil's advocate (c34fd2)

  27. I really cant see how this is news. first what the priest said about Hillary is true. She feels entitled to the presidency. That is why till date she still refuses to face the reality that this thing is over. She is warped in her thinking. The priest was right! So how is this going to hurt Obama? Is he going to be held responsible for everything everyone says? Thats absurd and you all know it! Hillary Clinton cant accept the fact that she is losing this nomination to a fresh, new, unknown black guy from no where. It’s hard for her and the Clinton clan to stomach. Obama simply stole the show. A black guy with little experience. It’s hard.
    And i second ADA #26 can we trade wls to get drj back? i miss drj, she seemed smarter. DRJ was much better.

    love2008 (5189d2)

  28. ada — is your creativity gene stunted? Lighten up.

    I made up Dolpermann about 6 months ago. I wish I had made it Doltermann, but I’m staying with my first choice.

    I stole MSDNC from somewhere else, but I can’t remember exactly where.

    wls (ec2de1)

  29. ada and Lovey — I’ll make you a deal.

    I’ll go when Sarandon goes to Italy.

    That means McCain will be President.

    Agreed?

    wls (ec2de1)

  30. #29
    You can stay as long as you want. Just try to be a little more objective and balanced. This is a non issue and you know it.

    love2008 (5189d2)

  31. is your creativity gene stunted?

    my creativity gene stands up in my blog comments.

    i’ll go when sarandon goes to italy.

    wtf are you talking about? the only sarandon i’ve ever heard of is susan sarandon (great in bull durham and other movies) and i’d be happy to accompany her on dayjaunts through tuscany on up to the piedmont, and nightjaunts wherever she wanted to go, hopefully leaving tim robbins behind at the pensione. on the road from sienna to florence in an open lamborghini with ms. sarandon next to me, i could run over your ass and not even notice it.

    assistant devil's advocate (c34fd2)

  32. ADA you must be hard up. In a woman, a vacuous mind negates any positive physical attributes (for men with self respect).

    Ken from Camarillo (aa2192)

  33. Just try to be a little more objective and balanced. This is a non issue and you know it.

    Sound advice for all sides…except I think it is anything but a “non-issue”.

    The Apologia Apostles all seem to want the world to label these continuing incidents as “one-off” and isolated “distractions”. That dog won’t hunt.

    Hugh Hewitt has called these “radical leftist eruptions” that continue to plague Sen. Obama a continuing theme and he is right.

    They are relevant because the conclusion is logical. Sen. Obama AFFIRMATIVELY EMBRACED the ideology of these men, he is comfortable with their worldview and belief system.

    He adopted is as his own through every deed and decision he made UNTIL HE SOUGHT THE PRESIDENCY.

    There is an absolute void in the record of him having EVER ONCE separated himself from the ideology of Wright, Pfleger, Ayers, Dorhn for the near entirety of his life until on the Presidential stump…and there are numerous instances and examples of his embrace of those ideologies, worldviews and belief systems.

    1)Being mentored and inspired by “Frank” Marshall Davis..the hard leftist/Communist…

    2)Seeking out his most radical hard leftist professors in college seems a logical progression from the above….

    3)Seeking out black preachers in order to come to a STUDIED CONCLUSION about which church to join and why…he settles upon Rev. Jeremiah Wright…a hard leftist/Marxist inspired, Farrakhan worshipping, POLITICAL PULPIT that is angry, hostile, divisive, anti-white, and not only EMBRACES that church and its belief system…but elevates Wright to “personal guide”.

    Anyone who tries to separate out Wright from Obama’s belief system…is a liar or a fool.

    4)Obama goes back to school with Wright’s tapes tucked underneath his arm…he not only is not a “passive” listener to Wright’s teachings about the Marxist-inspired Black Liberation Theo-politics…he is an active disciple of Wright himself.

    Not only are Barack and Michelle active congregants (along with their children), they preach the message of an “angry, bitter, clinging, slothful, greedy WHITE nation”…where we drive SUV’S and eat too much food and want corporate jobs and keep our thermostat too regulated. We are not MARXIST enough…and we are too white.

    4)Would adding in Ayers and Dorhn to their circle be much of a surprise to anyone who is paying attention? Of course they travel in the same circles…the anti-establishment hard leftism of Ayers and Dorhn contains virtually the same message as that of “Frank” Marshall Davis, the radical professors at college, Jeremiah Wright, Father Pfleger, …..ALL OF WHOM OBAMA HAS AFFIRMATIVELY EMBRACED AT A LEVEL AND IN A MANNER BEYOND MERE “isolated interaction”.

    The “isolated interaction meme…is a huge lie.

    5)Now add in the discomfort with the “wrong kind of patriotism” …and not wanting to wear the lapel pin, add in the Che Guevara poster, add in the off guard comments about clinging to guns and religion, add in the fact that his chief blogger Sam Graham-Felsen is a Chomskyite Socialist, …and the picture of a lifetime of hard leftism …in which he has embraced and SOUGHT OUT mentoring and inspiration…spotlights the truth. Sen. Obama is most comfortable within the worldview and belief system of hard leftism.

    He has actively sought out that worldview, has chosen it over other options, has a consistent voting pattern that champions its talking points, and he has not once distanced himself from its extremism…until RELUCTANTLY forced to do so to maintain his “centrist image” on the Presidential stump.

    Jeremiah Wright looks at that and says it’s all political expediency, not to be believed or taken seriously. Being “outed” like that…made Sen. Obama mad.

    A lifelong embrace of hard leftism, 20 years of racial venom combined with hard leftism, is not a “distraction” from a politician’s positions…its a definition of a life, a worldview, a belief system.

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  34. #33
    What I fail to see is how Father Pfleger’s speech should be an issue here. He merely expressed his own view, which he has every right to do. Connecting him with your trail of Obama anti-american friends is unacademic and weak. Mind you this is a “white” priest we are talking about. Or are you going to say that he is the white Rev. Wright who said those horrible things about God damning America? Continue spinning it any way you choose to but dont go so far in it that you cant come back to reality. If you dont like Obama, simply dont vote for him. You have a choice, McCain. And until you can provide proof, beyond reasonable doubt that Obama has at anytime expressed agreement or hinted his agreement, in speeches, activities, comments etc that agree with these people or echo their sentiments, until you can provide that, you really dont have a case here. A man is innocent until proven guilty.

    love2008 (5189d2)

  35. love2008, did you watch the congregation? The point is that stuff like this is common fare at Trinity and Obama spent 20 years as one of the people in that crowd and still considers himself one of them.

    And until you can provide proof, beyond reasonable doubt that Obama has at anytime expressed agreement or hinted his agreement, in speeches, activities, comments etc that agree with these people or echo their sentiments, until you can provide that, you really dont have a case here.

    Let’s go with his 20 years and counting as a Trinity congregant for starters. Do you think that expresses agreement with Trinity’s message or are you going to buy the ridiculous lie that Trinity was very, very different on the days Obama was there?

    Pablo (99243e)

  36. I think when the Get Whitey speeches were made at TUCC, Obama bravely remained seated throughout and did not jump up and applaud. Because of the INTEGRITY.

    steve miller (7538f1)

  37. Hi Pablo,
    As a legal practitioner, do you really believe that a man should be held responsible for comments made by someone else? Comments no one has evidence anywhere that he agrees with? Dont you have close associates, family members who hold views you reject and find offensive? Even though they are still a part of your life. does that make you culpable? If Obama should be condemned for what his Pastor said (which I have condemned strongly and severally on this blog and everywhere), then everyone who has attended a church where pastors have made controversial and offensive statements are politically flawed and suspect. It means anyone who aspires to be president of america coming from a church like Pastor Hagee’s ( who BTW I admire and still respect) is deeply flawed politically because of what his Pastor said about the catholic church and about Hitler being used of God to drive jews back to Israel. That is preposterous to say the least. And by the way, I agree with Pastor Hagee. It’s a matter of interpretation. Men of God, Pastors, church people are fundamentally meant to be controversial. It comes with the territory. Their world view is different from the normal. They dont say what you would like them to say, they are messengers of God whose job is to declare God’s counsel to His people. You either take it or leave it. If Pastors have to keep apologising for everything they say then they might as well resign.
    And as a foot note, I dont think going about and preying on Obama’s Pastors’ problem is good for the republicans. If anything they pay the price for it. Each time the reps go on Obama on his Pastor’s words, the Dems will retaliate by going on McCain’s PAstors, forcing him to reject endorsements he sorely needs now to win over the conservative base. (And by so doing, infuriate those who believe in them.) If you leave in a glass house, dont throw stones. Just an advice.

    love2008 (5189d2)

  38. Does this mean that John Hagee matters now?

    Levi (76ef55)

  39. No Levi, I dont think any of these pastors matter at this point. Politics and church should never mix. There are no winners therein. (And BTW Levi, are you by any chance jewish?)

    love2008 (5189d2)

  40. What I fail to see is how Father Pfleger’s speech should be an issue here. He merely expressed his own view, which he has every right to do. Connecting him with your trail of Obama anti-american friends is unacademic and weak.

    lovey – What you fail to grasp here is that Obama felt compelled to comment on the good Reverend’s sermon. Why would he do that if he did not feel there was a connection to his campaign? How many sides of your mouth can you talk out of at once?

    daleyrocks (79b05f)

  41. Did McCain along with his wife and kids spend twenty years sitting in a Pew listening to Hagee and consider Hagee his mentor also or make a very big deal about said relationship in his autobiography. All you apolgists for Urkel Obamaturd want him to have a pass on all his associations and judgments. Why not let Americans judge for themselves or will you just say they are racist honkey mofo’s? Why is the media covering for Brack Hussein’s questionable ethics, associations and common sense. I guess those earmarks for the church that the taxpayers foot are all ok in your book. No mixing of religion and politics or politicking in church unless it is a moonbat lib doing so, right loveobamatard?

    madmax333 (c541d8)

  42. #41
    Hi Maddy. You did not address my question. If a member of Hagee’s church were to come out for the presidency would he be flawed politically because of his association with his Pastor? Judge righteous judgement. Dont take sides.

    love2008 (5189d2)

  43. Levi – You keep claiming you are here to debate. I made the effort to unpack one of your comments on the Obama memorial day thread. Why are you chickening out?

    daleyrocks (79b05f)

  44. “No mixing of religion and politics or politicking in church unless it is a moonbat lib doing so,…?”

    That’s my biggest gripe with this whole mess. And like you say, when it’s a Pat Robertson, on his own tv station, saying such things, libs get all ballistic. But there is a difference between spouting political nonsense from a pulpit and spouting political nonsense from one’s own private (taxable) enterprise.

    RickZ (8df857)

  45. Hi Maddy. You did not address my question. If a member of Hagee’s church were to come out for the presidency would he be flawed politically because of his association with his Pastor? Judge righteous judgement. Dont take sides.

    Comment by love2008

    Again, with Obama and Wright, we’re talking the length of the association, and the depth of the relationship. If someone from Hagee’s church were to run for president with the same fact pattern, then yes. Good judgement is a quality one needs to be president, and leaving such a church would show that prerequisite good judgement. Or are you saying that Obama the Racial Unifyer was just too lazy to get up and walk out of a racially-charge, anti-whitey hate-fest? That’s not a good quality in a president, either.

    RickZ (8df857)

  46. How many sides of your mouth can you talk out of at once? Daley I am really practising on talking out of the two ends of my mouth. You know, like Robert de niro.
    Why would he do that if he did not feel there was a connection to his campaign?
    The only “connection” this has with his campaign is that which theorists like you like to make on blogs like this. It reminds me of a blind man looking for a black cat in a dark room and yet he finds it even though the black cat is not there. We usually see what we want to see.

    love2008 (5189d2)

  47. “they’ve limned themselves as smaller minds executing a preconscious programmed gesture ”

    Self parody is so funny. Obamabots crack me up.

    “The only “connection” this has with his campaign is that which theorists like you like to make on blogs like this. It reminds me of a blind man looking for a black cat in a dark room and yet he finds it even though the black cat is not there. We usually see what we want to see.”

    And you see a man who is capable of being president when all that is there is an empty suit with a bunch of true believers like you. One big reason why people are focusing on these connections is because the man has no resume !. He has never done anything but run for office and jive his way in Chicago politics. If he were not black, he would be a laughingstock for thinking he was qualified. This is a case of walking, talking white guilt running for office. Read something by Thomas Sowell or Shelby Steele. Then come back.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  48. 345
    then yes. Good judgement is a quality one needs to be president, and leaving such a church would show that prerequisite good judgement. Or are you saying that Obama the Racial Unifyer was just too lazy to get up and walk out of a racially-charge, anti-whitey hate-fest? That’s not a good quality in a president, either. Then what you are saying in effect is that as a rule, politicians should never go to church or belong to any religious association. Because there is hardly any church without its own share of controversial ministers. And like i said in my comment in #37, pastors are fundamentally meant to be controversial. So to avoid getting all mixed up with pastor problems, politicians and aspirants need to break all ties with the church. Is that a practical argument to pursue?
    And Rickz, i dont agree with you when you refer to Rev Wright and his congregation as “anti-whitey, and hate-fest.” It sounds like a deliberate attempt to obscure the facts. How can they be anti-white and keep white associates around them? Or arent you aware that their are white folks in that church? Are you seeing what it is or are you seeing what you want to see?

    love2008 (5189d2)

  49. As a legal practitioner, do you really believe that a man should be held responsible for comments made by someone else?

    I am not a legal practitioner. Nor am I holding Obama responsible for anyone’s comments. What I am doing is trying to get a bead on the guy, not to prosecute him but to decide if he’s a wise choice for POTUS.

    Comments no one has evidence anywhere that he agrees with? Dont you have close associates, family members who hold views you reject and find offensive?

    The fact that he willfully exposes himself and his children to these messages indicates that he doesn’t object to them. And no, none of my family nor any of my close associates expresses things that I find truly offensive. The former is a matter of luck, the latter is by design.

    If Obama should be condemned for what his Pastor said (which I have condemned strongly and severally on this blog and everywhere), then everyone who has attended a church where pastors have made controversial and offensive statements are politically flawed and suspect.

    Why, yes. Yes they are. But again, this isn’t condemnation, this is looking for a President. we’re looking for core principles and examples of judgment.

    They dont say what you would like them to say, they are messengers of God whose job is to declare God’s counsel to His people.

    Is that what you think Wright, Moss and Pfleger are doing? I don’t. I expect to hear certain things from a preacher. Those are not among them.

    Each time the reps go on Obama on his Pastor’s words, the Dems will retaliate by going on McCain’s PAstors, forcing him to reject endorsements he sorely needs now to win over the conservative base.

    McCain has already rejected the endorsements of Hagee and Parsley, neither of whom were his pastors, btw.

    If you leave in a glass house, dont throw stones.

    I don’t have a church and I’m not running for President, so I think I’m on safe ground expressing my opinion. Now, you didn’t answer my question: Do you think that attending such a church for such a long time expresses agreement with the recurrent messages or are you going to buy the ridiculous lie that Trinity was very, very different on the days Obama was there?

    Pablo (99243e)

  50. The only “connection” this has with his campaign is that which theorists like you like to make on blogs like this.

    Really? Let’s review the “sermon”

    …When Hillary was crying and people said that was put on–I really don’t believe it was put on.

    I really believe that she just always thought ‘This is mine’. ‘I’m Bill’s wife. I’m WHITE. And this is mine. And I jus’ gotta get up. And step into the plate. And then out of nowhere came, ‘Hey, I’m Barack Obama.’ And she said: ‘Oh, damn!’ WHERE DID YOU COME FROM!?!?! I’M WHITE! I’M ENTITLED! THERE’S A BLACK MAN STEALING MY SHOW. (SOBS!) SHE WASN’T THE ONLY ONE CRYING! THERE WAS A WHOLE LOTTA WHITE PEOPLE CRYING!

    You don’t see a connection to Obama in that rant given in Obama’s church?

    Pablo (99243e)

  51. Because there is hardly any church without its own share of controversial ministers.

    That, btw, is quite false. There are thousands of churches that preach mainstream Christianity and nothing else. Trinity ain’t one of them.

    Pablo (99243e)

  52. You are right…my thoughts exactly when I saw and heard him a couple of months back….switched channel fast!!

    Sue (f9a0a4)

  53. #49
    If you leave in a glass house, dont throw stones.

    I don’t have a church and I’m not running for President, so I think I’m on safe ground expressing my opinion. Now, you didn’t answer my question: Do you think that attending such a church for such a long time expresses agreement with the recurrent messages or are you going to buy the ridiculous lie that Trinity was very, very different on the days Obama was there?
    Hey Pablo you are really hurting my feelings now. When I made that comment about “If you leave in a glass house, dont throw stones.”, I wasnt in any way refering to you my friend. I was speaking generally to GOP. Just a piece of advice. And to your question Do you think that attending such a church for such a long time expresses agreement with the recurrent messages or are you going to buy the ridiculous lie that Trinity was very, very different on the days Obama was there?
    Yes I do. I feel Obama should have done more to show disagreement with his Pastor’s point of view and staying under him for 20 years does not help him make that case. There is a legitimate reason for concern here and he should do more to address it. The only thiung here is that Obama is a complex equation. He is black, he is also white. Moreover his father and natural ancestors did not suffer any effect of racism that african americans talk about, seeing he migrated from Kenya. So its really hard to see how you tie that anger, bitterness and hate theology on him since he really didnt experience it. Is it possible that that foundation and background gave him a kind of immunity to those BLT vitriol and allowed him to stay there without necessarily agreeing with it? Just a thought.

    love2008 (5189d2)

  54. He is black, he is also white.

    And I don’t care.

    Moreover his father and natural ancestors did not suffer any effect of racism that african americans talk about, seeing he migrated from Kenya.

    Yeah. His white ancestors owned slaves.

    So its really hard to see how you tie that anger, bitterness and hate theology on him since he really didnt experience it.

    Neither did Wright, who’s lived a more privileged life than most Americans.

    Is it possible that that foundation and background gave him a kind of immunity to those BLT vitriol and allowed him to stay there without necessarily agreeing with it?

    Hate is hate and if you want to be a uniter, you don’t stew in it. You don’t subject your children to it. Obama has repeatedly spoken with deep respect for trinity’s primary purveyor of hate. And when the political cost got too high and a rift developed between them, who did he turn to for counsel and to mediate? Pfleger.

    Yuck.

    Pablo (99243e)

  55. (And BTW Levi, are you by any chance jewish?)

    No.

    Levi (76ef55)

  56. “The only “connection” this has with his campaign is that which theorists like you like to make on blogs like this.”

    Huh? Pfleger is one of Obama’s faith advisors and a very close associate of Rev. Wright, Obama’s mentor and moral compass, and a good friend of Trinity Church, as Rev. Moss points out in the clip. We can sweep all that under the rug though can’t we for Obamacans such as yourself, lovey, plus the connections between Rev. Pfleger and Obama from Obama’s community organizing days.

    Can we ignore yet another very inconvenient and embarrassing close Obama personal association?

    YES YOU CAN!!!!!!

    No, I can’t. The man is running for President largely on the strength of his judgement and a platform of hopiness and changitude. I have no interest in a semi-hidden socialist agenda built upon racial grievances. I have no idea who Obama really is because he doesn’t have a legislative track record to speak of, but the more of his loony friends that keep appearing and shooting the candidate in the foot, the better idea I form.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  57. That, btw, is quite false. There are thousands of churches that preach mainstream Christianity and nothing else. Trinity ain’t one of them
    Pablo I would like you to give me an example of such churches. Understand, the church world-view goes against the norm. If a minister is true to his calling, he will be bound to make comments that some people may view offensive. For example, gay marriage. That is a basic area of disagreement between the world, mainstream view and the church. The teachings of the bible are fundamentally anti-gay. (Not anti-gay people, because the bible teaches that God loves everyone, including gays, but against homosexuality as a practice.) So if a minister takes a stand on that, based on the word of God, he is bound to be viewed as controversial, bigotted, homophobic and what have you. Another issue is abortion. Any real minister is bound to draw the ire of certain people for taking a stand on these core values. But that is the price that must be paid for taking your stand. A Preacher who panders to the people’s delight, allowing them to decide what is fitting to say and what is not has lost his or her calling. In addition, I strongly believe ministers should keep away from politics. They are not supposed to be viewed as partisan. That makes them lose their cutting egde as people begin to view them as politicians, pursuing their own political agenda and not ministers of God who speak the mind of God to the people.

    love2008 (5189d2)

  58. He is black, he is also white.

    Moreover his father and natural ancestors did not suffer any effect of racism that african americans talk about, seeing he migrated from Kenya.

    lovey – It’s really fucking disingenuous of you to play the race card when you claim to be such an unbiased commenter.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  59. Levi – You keep claiming you are here to debate. I made the effort to unpack one of your comments on the Obama memorial day thread. Why are you chickening out?

    I usually have a good couple of hours to comment and respond to people, but even I get a little tired of asking over and over again for people around here to actually argue, to make some semblance of a point, to address anything that I say, and yes, eventually I’m going to have to get up and do some other shit. Maybe if I didn’t have to waste all my time begging you people to do these things, I would have gotten to whatever you had to say.

    Chickening out, yeah right. Because I didn’t get to the one thing that you said.

    Levi (76ef55)

  60. Pablo I would like you to give me an example of such churches.

    lovey – I think the easier thing to do would be for you to give examples of other hate spewing Christian churches since you feel there are so many of them. I’m not sure many people would consider Westboro Baptist a good example, though.

    Obama seemed to think TUCC was mainstream. Can you support that?

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  61. Chickening out, yeah right. Because I didn’t get to the one thing that you said.

    Levi – I take it this means you have no information to back up the points you made in your comment but don’t want to admit it. Coward.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  62. Listening the the local non-commercial FM radio station last night, the outgoing DJ’s last song was “Barack Obama” – the Kenyan reggie one. The incoming DJ started out with the Who’s “Don’t Get Fooled Again.”

    Seemed appropriate.

    Joseph Somsel (e5cbf5)

  63. “I feel Obama should have done more to show disagreement with his Pastor’s point of view and staying under him for 20 years does not help him make that case.”

    lovey – So what you are admitting is that for someone running as a post-racial candidate, Obama demonstrates piss poor judgement.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  64. love2008, America is something like 85% Christian. Christian teachings are not controversial to the vast majority of Americans. Yes, you can find some who will think them so, but then you can find a similar group of people who find the notion of God ridiculous and controversial. In a church, they’re utterly pedestrian and completely acceptable to mainstream America. People might disagree, and many do, but anti-sodomy and anti-abortion are not controversial positions for a church to take. They’re expected.

    They’re also against sex outside of marriage. Is that controversial too?

    Pablo (99243e)

  65. #64 They’re also against sex outside of marriage. Is that controversial too?
    Pablo I am sure you understand me.
    #63 lovey – So what you are admitting is that for someone running as a post-racial candidate, Obama demonstrates piss poor judgement
    Daley i am not “admitting” anything here. I simply stated what I believe has always been my position on this issue.
    #58 lovey – It’s really fucking disingenuous of you to play the race card when you claim to be such an unbiased commenter. Race card? How so?

    love2008 (5189d2)

  66. No, I can’t. The man is running for President largely on the strength of his judgement and a platform of hopiness and changitude.

    I don’t see anything wrong with Obama’s judgment, not from the Rev. Wright association, not from anything he’s done as a political figure. He was right about the defining issue of our time, the Iraq war, and he’s run a revolutionary sort of campaign that has upset one of the strongest establishment politicians in the country.

    Now you can huff and puff about the judgment problems you swear he has because of Rev. Wright, but you can hardly make the case that just because you don’t like who Obama hangs out with, then he’s going to habitually make mistakes as a politician and a leader, especially since that’s not borne out by his current status as the presumptive nominee. You do not get this far in presidential politics as a black man running against a Clinton if you have poor judgment. Does he receive no credit for this? No Republican has ever beat a Clinton, but Obama just beat both of them. You can’t respect that? You can’t concede that he must be getting something right?

    I have no interest in a semi-hidden socialist agenda built upon racial grievances.

    How can you honestly submit that Obama is advocating such a thing?

    I have no idea who Obama really is because he doesn’t have a legislative track record to speak of,

    Legislative track records aren’t exactly good metrics to judge Presidential candidates, they’re different jobs. Obama’s voting history establishes that he’s a liberal, so does Hillary’s, and McCain’s establishes that he’s a conservative. There’s not much more to glean from there, I’m more interested in what they want to do with the power of the Presidency. That’s the most revelatory measure, in my view. If you want to base your vote purely on what people have done in the past, that’s your prerogative, and there certainly are things you can learn from examining voting records, but to pretend like they determine everything about a candidate is just silly.

    but the more of his loony friends that keep appearing and shooting the candidate in the foot, the better idea I form.

    You realize that you are only aware of the existence of these ‘loony friends’ of his because you were told of their existence by the people that are trying to beat Obama in a campaign, don’t you? Would it have ever occurred to you to examine Obama’s pastor under a microscope if the Clinton campaign or Rush Limbaugh didn’t specifically tell you to do it, and perhaps more importantly, how to feel about it? Did you care about Kerry’s pastor four years ago? Did you care about Bill Clinton’s 16 years ago? Of course not. You know why? Because nobody told you to.

    Do you think you’re being objective here because you can parrot Sean Hannity?

    Levi (76ef55)

  67. #63 lovey – So what you are admitting is that for someone running as a post-racial candidate, Obama demonstrates piss poor judgement
    Daley i am not “admitting” anything here. I simply stated what I believe has always been my position on this issue.
    #58 lovey – It’s really fucking disingenuous of you to play the race card when you claim to be such an unbiased commenter. Race card? How so?

    Lovey – Both of my comments stand on their own. Do you have reading comprehension problems?

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  68. I watch the videos of Wright, a few other black obamatard preachers and that rebellious catholic twerp and see self-aggradizing, pompous, sense of entitlement jackasses speaking code for umgahwah, bang, bang, beep, beep, white blood , black power. Who amongst them including Ayers, Dohrn and the Obama’s themselves do not have it better than most Americans, black or white? Are they not all filthy rich and yet hate capitalism and white America. Don’t tell me that because the catholic priest, the unindicted past terrorists Ayers and Dohrn don’t hate whitey because they are white. So what? Noam Chomsky is a Hebrew and hates Jews too, besides being of the same marxist movement as all of the above mentioned friends of Barack Hussein Urkel.
    Show me where any of them have suffered racial injustice and have not partaken of the cornucopia of wealth that is available in America. You dimbulb libs see no problem with Senator Urkel earmarking taxpayer funds for Chicago church activities. Your eyes are all aglitter and your peckers all excited thinking of Urkel as YOUR potus. What the hell is he going to do to improve America for other than his corrupt minions such as Rezno or the black entitlement Jesse Jackson/Al sharpton/hurricane louie farakhan type ilk?? Guess we’ll be getting appointees such as Lani Gunier and Angela Davis, along with more Janet Reno lackeys. Don’t say it won’t happen, because Clinton himself wanted Guinier- she of the black votes should be weighed more heavily than white votes to make up for past racism and give blacks more power to right historical “injustices”. I guess Levi and Lovetard are down with ideas like that and/or reparations for blacks and increased affirmative action, including bringing homosexuality into the mix. Like being a homo means I warrant special hiring considerations. How to you prove it, maybe send in a video showing yourself performing with another man or do you just service the hiring dude? Libs and their victimology class BS are just ignorant and should, like Sarandon, leave the damn country.

    madmax333 (0fc6fc)

  69. #68
    Here comes the mad max y’all! And he is really mad at the Obamatards and Lovetards and Levitards. He is really really really mad. What shall we do, what shall we do…?

    love2008 (5189d2)

  70. “but you can hardly make the case that just because you don’t like who Obama hangs out with, then he’s going to habitually make mistakes as a politician and a leader,”

    If that is your claim Levi, then can also not claim the opposite, that he will not habitually make mistakes as a politician and leader. There is no record to go on. You can’t make one claim without allowing the other and I prefer to err on the side of caution.

    “especially since that’s not borne out by his current status as the presumptive nominee. You do not get this far in presidential politics as a black man running against a Clinton if you have poor judgment.”

    These associations were largely buried by Obama’s friends in the media until after he had built an insurmountable lead over Hillary. Check the timing. The liberal whorespondents sat on story after story and still whitewash what reaches the public.

    “How can you honestly submit that Obama is advocating such a thing?”

    Did you listen to the same speech he gave on race that I did Levi? Maybe you should go back and give it another listen or read.

    “Legislative track records aren’t exactly good metrics to judge Presidential candidates,”

    As you point out Levi, I want to see his voting record on legislation. With the just say no democrats and the do nothing democrat congress, there’s not much there. Voting present is not impressive in Illinois. He has deliberately avoided controversy to preserve political capital, not demonstrating very much leadership.

    “Would it have ever occurred to you to examine Obama’s pastor under a microscope if the Clinton campaign or Rush Limbaugh didn’t specifically tell you to do it, and perhaps more importantly, how to feel about it?”

    I’m sorry to disappoint you Levi, I don’t get cable TV or listen to Limbaugh or Hannity. I’m mature enough to form my own opinions and do my own basic research.

    Do you get any ideas from people other than Bill Maher?

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  71. Rick Moran does a really good take down of Obama’s Radical Political Alliances over at http://rightwingnuthouse.com
    Brack Hussein Urkel’s deceptions, inveigling and obfuscations go wayyyy beyond his bad taste in preachers. These people despise our system and should be vilified, along with the obamamessiah. Or perhaps our libtards present here can justify the ideas that urkel’s friends espouse? Sure seems like the obamabots want the rest of Amerikkka to think Barack is centrist and mainstream.

    madmax333 (0fc6fc)

  72. Shit max, I knew I should have done something different in that last job interview. I should have offered the guy a hummer. What was I thinking, I mean with the pictures of his wife and kids all around the office, that stuff means nothing, right. We’re all secretly gay, right? That’s what the libs keep telling us.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  73. “I never imagined he was anything but a New York liberal,”

    Is that code for “jewish” ? why the “new york” part?

    esbee (339068)

  74. “Just try to be a little more objective and balanced. This is a non issue and you know it.”

    Ridiculous, of course. This is dishonest and disingenuous and you know it. Just change all the players and make them Republican and say that with a straight face.

    It is because of the voter’s lack of honesty and objectivism that this entire campaign has transformed into a pathetic circus of mutated identity politics – women are supposed to support Hillary because we own a uterus, blacks are supposed to support Obama because of a shared color, everyone else in between is to support Obama if they’re feeling guilty, but if they’re bitter and carry guns, well, then you know…

    And what appears to be most offensive to some commenters here is when sound people *refuse* to play the media game hyped above.

    Several commenters apparently can’t believe that some of us will not be bullied, cajoled, manipulated, or guilted into supporting someone for no other reason than we don’t agree with their policies and they lack serious experience.

    All the other stuff (Wright, Pfleger, Florida/Mich. agreement nonsense, Ayers, Clintonian history/histronics, etc), simply gives supporting context and evidence.

    Dana (8225b8)

  75. max – Nice article by Moran. I’m sure lovey and Levi will ignore it.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  76. I have seen the Apologia and listened to the Apostles…and they are really making some lame arguments.

    1)The “church” worldview is going to go against the grain of popular thought. Perhaps. Some churches indeed do that. Rev. Wright’s worldview AIMS at white people with slings and arrows dipped in bile and hatred. Rev. Moss’ worldview does the same. Rev. Farrakhan’s worldview does the same.

    This is “ok” for blacks to cheer, smile, applaud…because, after all…you know..it’s built on the foundation of “truth”.

    However, this “truth” is a big lie. It’s a distortion. It is based on racist lies, anti-Semitic lies, economic lies.

    2)Wright is no different from Hagee…as they apply to Obama and McCain respectively.

    a)Did Obama and McCain take an armful of tapes with the intent of studying them and emulating the preacher? Or did only one of them do that?

    b)Did Obama and McCain have NO religion and get “brought to Christ” by these preachers…AFTER weighing ALL the other options available in the area? Or did only one of them do that?

    c)Did Obama and McCain go for 20 years to that church, sit in the pews, listen to the political hatred spewing forth and choose to REMAIN in those pews despite the hatred, have his children baptized there, get married there? Or did only one of them do that?

    d)Is one of those churches built upon a mountain of economic destruction of this country, a Marxist inspired tinge…where the Lord must be killed if HE isn’t also a racist? Or is that just one of the churches?

    Had John McCain spent 20 years sitting in a pew where the hatred of blacks was spewed and David Duke sat next to him and cheered every time, if John McCain put a race-baiting Marxist on his advisory, if he wrote a book and called him a mentor and guiding light…he would be pilloried in the press.

    To suggest that the hatefest at TUCC and Obama’s attachment to it, is somehow capable of a moral equivalency argument with McCain’s endorsement by a preacher…is myopic and disingenuous at best…and only a fool or a liar would attempt to do so.

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  77. The “other” Apologia argument is that “none of this matters, it’s a distraction, it is a part of the vast right wing slime machine.

    Total BS.

    It matters.

    First, MUCH of the evidence related to Obama’s attachment to Wright (as well as to Pfleger, Farrakhan’s Nation of Islam, Ayers, Dorhn, radical professors, “Frank” Marshall Davis, Sam Graham-Felsen, Tony Rezco, Rashid Khalidi, Ali Abunimah…do NOT come from the “right wing”.

    The NYTimes wrote an article, he has his books which he authored and he has his “advisory” papers and the Washington Post outlined who they were.

    He has an attachment to hard left politics his whole life and a 20 year attachment to anti-white, anti-Jewish worldviews. This is unassailable.

    Any liberal who suggests that if a parallel existed between John McCain and voices of hate for this period of time, with this deep of a connection…and would even TRY to suggest that McCain wouldn’t be tarred and feathered…is fooling themselves. Such a position is a joke.

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  78. cfbleachers – lovey and Levi have both seriously beclowned themselves today.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  79. cf bleachers- you nailed it, but it doesn’t matter since most people will never have an inkling of what is going on after the media does its spin job. I have local Jews here in moonbat Palm Beach tell me my meds need checking as my conspiracy theories related to Obama are beyond the pale. Bobby Wexler says Obama is good people and so it must be. Bush still needs impeaching or at least prosecution by the euroweenies in the fullness of time.
    Barack Hussein Sycophants will never admit that their boy has any failings, since he is the second coming of Christ and his speech on race will be studied and applauded one hundred years hence. So all us gun-toting, bible-toting racist ridgerunners better just bend over and take it like a man. Gotta have payback for all that racism in our country’s history. I do feel guilty when I realize that my questions are not helping Michelle’s cherubs. Poor things have suffered enough not knowing where there next fresh fruit, lessons and black pride are coming from. I’m sorry I have been a bigot and called daddy obama awful names like Urkel. Michelle, the middle name that shall not be mentioned, associations, lack of any actual experience, rev wright et al and miscellaneous petty observations are all off-limits if we truly desire racial healing and an end to war and poverty. Time to sing kumbaya, smoke a righteous joint and pass the thunderbird.

    At least John “Lurch” sKerry had a long, productive record as a US Senator and was a true patriot, albeit a winter soldier/magic hat wearing/phony purple heart one. Obama gets by on missing votes or voting “present”. But I digress as I am sure he will be the finest AA POTUS we’ve ever had and if you dare criticize him, then you are a cowardly racist pig and a watermelon jake.
    Here’s to increased regulations, quotas, taxes, pacifism, “fairness” in all things the annointed one decides needs equalizing and the deification of those visionaries, including media delights matthews, Olberdork and Abrams. Long live CNN, NBC, CBS, Dan Rather, MSNBC, PBS, NPR, AirAmerica and death to Faux/Fake news and right wing vrwc radio.

    madmax333 (0fc6fc)

  80. So Abrams ridicules the news judgment of Fox News for giving prominence to the tape of Pfleger that emerged yesterday, while at the same time acknowledging that he never heard of the guy before yesterday, but without doing even the barest hint of research to determing the closeness of Pfleger’s connection to Obama’s political career.

    The research done proves absolutely nothing because this is his conclusion.

    But he was backed in the effort by Father Michael Pfleger.

    What does that even mean? This long drawn out article concludes with one sentence? The extent of the relationship between the two is that Pfleger supports Obama (similar to the way I support Obama, by simply saying so). I know he donated money (which any one can do) and was his spirtual advisor (once again, what does that mean? Obama is a politician in America, which invented the great divide between church and state and will make governing decisions object to his religion). But that doesn’t mean a thing. If the best that you people can come up with is this, than there is no new pastor controversy.

    Now I’m not bringing this up so you people can give me rhetoric about the 20 years stuff. What if this issue doesn’t stick, and it turns out that McCain has just as poor judgment (we should all know by now that he has changed his mind on key issues since 2000 to pander to the neo-con base, the tax-cuts being a perfect example) If he genuinely believes that his positions today are correct and he plans on employing them while governing, then didn’t he exercise poor judgment in not recognizing the correct policies the first time? Or is McCain doing things because its politically expedient? Did McCain show poor judgment in having a failed marriage? Did he show poor judgment when seeking out controversial figures like Hagee? Why aren’t these stories getting half as much play Obama’s?

    The qualm in this article is that Abrams didn’t investigate, even though if he had, he would have found you are unable to tie Pfleger words into Obama’s policies because of their loose political association. My problem is this: Why is this a story? The media is supposed to be objective and just because you keep finding tapes of controversial figures tied to a candidate doesn’t mean you have to play them non-stop. We could look back through the thousands of political associations that McCain and Clinton have and see if one of them said something crazy, but is that really news? It screws people like me who know how to vote, and want the media and politicians to talk about things pertinent to well-being of America, as opposed to the media playing this nonsense, which forces the politicians to speak to it. I have to wait to watch PBS or C-Span in the middle of the night to get any substance out of a debate. Bombarding people with this pastor stuff is asinine. What’s implied is essentially this, “Oh my god look at what pastor X said, what if the candidate thinks that too?” Even though the politicians come out and explicitly say otherwise. So when can we hang this one up? It’s been going since late February and I am sick of it, just like you people are sick of me.

    Levi (76ef55)

  81. So all us gun-toting, bible-toting racist ridgerunners better just bend over and take it like a man. Gotta have payback for all that racism in our country’s history. I do feel guilty when I realize that my questions are not helping Michelle’s cherubs. Poor things have suffered enough not knowing where there next fresh fruit, lessons and black pride are coming from. I’m sorry I have been a bigot and called daddy obama awful names like Urkel. Michelle, the middle name that shall not be mentioned, associations, lack of any actual experience, rev wright et al and miscellaneous petty observations are all off-limits if we truly desire racial healing and an end to war and poverty. Time to sing kumbaya, smoke a righteous joint and pass the thunderbird.

    What are you talking about? What the fuck are you talking about? I know you people give me a hard time a bout reading comprehension, but what the fuck is this guy talking about?

    Levi (76ef55)

  82. #82 a response to the off-limits words spoken by Michelle and Urkel with the support of the cretins whom you watch in the middle of the night for “objective” news. Fact: for libs it is free speeech for me (libs) but not for thee.Otherwise why do you obamatards want the Fairness Doctrine reinstituted? Why do white bigot/racists have to pay taxes to support your versions of Pravda and Izvestia? I’m told by your media darlings that my ilk needs to just shut the eff up and coronate the great black hope. Tell me what the hell Hope! and Change! really means. I know you won’t so just ignore me and bioya,mf’er.

    madmax333 (0fc6fc)

  83. daley: hope you don’t mind if I present your great throwdown to the challenger from a previous thread. It was noticeably disregarded:

    Levi – Yes sonny, it is you who has the credibility problem. Bush is not running for reelection as has been pointed out to you repeatedly. Try to remember that.

    How about backing up some of the points you made in your comment 112 with specific examples for a change Levi. Give me some specific examples where Bush has shown no respect for the:

    military

    the taxpayers

    foreigners

    the Constitution

    basic human rights, whatever that means

    the rule of law

    Explain to me how he has repeatedly slammed the military into a wall and show me some examples of tantrums he has thrown when people have corrected him. You say he has discarded every shred of credibility and American values and principles and our role as leaders of the free world, Levi. What is your evidence for that assertion?

    Remember, Levi, you claim to be here to back up your arguments, so go to it. Claiming “everyone knows it” is not back up.

    What have you got Cupcake?

    Jack Klompus (b796b4)

  84. I did not write the posts at #80 or #81. I can only assume it was my brother, and I don’t know why he did that and why he didn’t change his name, but I just want to be clear, especially since he was using the f-word, which I was explicitly told would earn me a banning. I’ll tell him when I see him again not to do that without changing the name.

    Levi (76ef55)

  85. Jack – Thanks. Might as well keep bringing it up until he answers I guess.

    daleyrocks (d0c477)

  86. “It screws people like me who know how to vote”

    HAHAHAHAHAHA

    Levi – Were you finally old enough to vote in the presidential election in 2004 or is this your first time around?

    daleyrocks (d0c477)

  87. “My problem is this: Why is this a story?”

    That’s been explained above several times junior. If it wasn’t a story, Obama wouldn’t have felt the need to comment on it. Put that in your pacifier and suck on it.

    daleyrocks (d0c477)

  88. Hello Everyone.

    Emperor7 (5189d2)

  89. do you really believe that a man should be held responsible for comments made by someone else?

    For the comments themselves, no. For showing his approval by listening to them week after week for 20 years and only now repudiating them, yes.

    but you can hardly make the case that just because you don’t like who Obama hangs out with, then he’s going to habitually make mistakes as a politician and a leader,

    Seriously, Levi, this is a remarkably dumb statement. Let’s say a Republican spent 20 years hanging out with KKK members: wouldn’t that make you question his judgment?

    We are known by the company we keep…and have been for quite some time, it’s not a new standard. “Better alone than in bad company” was said by Thomas Fuller back in the 1600s.

    Steverino (4b8184)

  90. Levi — Obama had almost NO SUPPORT in his primary challenge to Rush in 2000 — Pfleger was a noted exception.

    I submit that this type of allegiance cemented a bond between Obama and Pfleger.

    Obama got programs funded for Pfleger while he was in the Ill. Legis.

    Yesterday the NYT reported that Obama got Pfleger an earmark of $100,000 in last year’s budget.

    Today Obama resigns from the Trinity Church.

    Yep — a whole lot of nothin here. Move On.

    wls (ec2de1)

  91. #84 I know how that goes. Racist sock puppets are always posting under my name without my knowledge, especially trying to keep the black man down.

    What I don’t actually understand is how those who enable the obammessiah can live with themselves knowing they want their own country to fail as much as possible to make Dubya look bad, even though he’s not up for re-election. The DU/KOS/Huff/Codepink/george soros crowd, along with levi, his bro, leviticus, ADA and loveobamabot are invested in our failure in Iraq. That’s why Obama-Urkel doesn’t want to visit Iraq or acknowledge that his hopes and pleas for failure are not coming to fruition. Spin us more revisionist history, tell us about the BusHitler policy of torturing terrorists. Is Bush-Cheney- Rove an evil genius troika or just plain stupid?

    I know we are not supposed to question your patriotism, but your vaunted NY Times and many of you sure as heck give every appearance of treason and sedition by revealing national security secrets and making every effort to aid and abet the terrorists. You prior standard bearer, the illustrious “war here” Lurch is now spewing BS that we were not at war on Sept. 10 2001 and there is no reason to be stuck in Iraq. Hotair’s posting on it is good for a laugh. Geez, to think about what asshats you guys keep coming up with.

    madmax333 (e2fce3)

  92. A LITTLE LATE: CNN is reporting that Obama has resigned his membership in the Trinity Church.

    http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/

    Guess SOMEBODY thought that the connection was meaningful…the Apostles have to change the Apologia on the fly.

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  93. For the Obama-otomies lurking today:

    What do you suppose was the motivation for resigning from TUCC?

    1) The “right wing flacks” like Fox News?

    of

    2) Emerging discomfort by superdelegates with Obama’s well concealed past?

    wls (ec2de1)

  94. Today Obama resigns from the Trinity Church.

    Glenn Reynolds has it up over at Instapundit (again, I tried to link and got caught up in the spam filter)

    Guess the Apostles have to once again change the Apologia on the fly. Seems as if SOMEBODY thought the connection was significant enough…to have to DISCONNECT from it.

    Things that make you go…hmmm.

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  95. So, unless some of the Apostles are so deeply in need of a pre-frontal lobamaty (this is akin to a lobotomy where cutting certain nerves in the brain could eliminate excess emotion and stabilize a personality.

    In a Lobamaty, eliminating excees emotion and stabilizing leftist personalities is beyond medical science, it simply lessens the impact of Bush derangement syndrome, Pav-Rovian drooling instincts…and the attempt to give moral equivalence of every nefarious act from the left to some unrelated hallucination about the “vast right wing conspiracy”. Also known as Schizsorosphenia.

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  96. This whole situation with visiting minister’s words or former pastor’s words is sickening to me. That’s like saying that George Bush speaks for every single person in the United States. Since when do we walk lock-step with our pastors?

    If Barack Obama is gonna be held responsible for what has come across the pulpit of Trinity United Church of Christ then Billary Clinton should be held responsible for her former pastor’s sins of being convicted of child molestation. Check it for yourself. Let’s see if she can stand the same fire she’s put under Mr. Obama or will she turn on the waterworks & try to diflect this kind of scrutiny!!!

    http://www.uticaod.com/homepage/x1637676857

    G.Davis (f072cf)

  97. BREAKING NEWS!
    ABERDEEN, S.D. – Barack Obama has resigned his 20 year membership in the Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago in the aftermath of inflammatory remarks by his longtime pastor the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and more recent fiery remarks at the church by another minister.
    So there you have it gentlemen. Are you all happy now? Can we get past this and focus on the issues?

    love2008 (5189d2)

  98. So there you have it gentlemen. Are you all happy now? Can we get past this and focus on the issues?

    Sure thing. It only took 20+ years and public disgust to get him to do this. Sure. That merits NOT consideration…

    If McCain had been a member of Duke’s Church and only NOW resigned membership, you people would have gone insane from day one, and never let up on it.

    But this is Hope-o Change-o, so talking about his choices ist verboten…

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  99. The bombshell!
    Obama has resigned from his church of more than 20 years.
    Finally, after a lot of DEEP thinking, Obama has realized that Hannity and the Republicans have been right for months if not an year: RESIGN the church!!!
    Obama was in big, big trouble and has showed anything but bad-judgement, fear, miscalculations, procrastination, speeches, words, etc.

    Mr. Obama you’ve learned that the words mean nothing [i.e. verba volant].
    Mr. Barack Hussein Obama ONLY the facts count
    [i.e. scripta manet! facts remain!, have value!]

    Mr. Obama, liberal media defended you but they could not do anything instead of yourself!

    Mr. Obama, do you realize that you have followed
    the advice of Hannity and Fox Network and today you reluctantly have resigned from your beloved church?

    On another note ……

    Is Obama ready?
    NO! He has no clue how the politics work!

    Is Obama stronger?
    NO. After exposing his weaknesses he will CONTINUALLY be attacked on the bad judgement issue.

    For example, does Obama needs over 20 years to find out that what Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is saying is serious?

    It is certain, that Obama is not ready for the big league. He needs at least four more years in AAA-league ( i.e. ready for 2016 trials/primaries )

    bhj2008 (f2e736)

  100. some of the issues are the character and machinations of Urkel and his merry band of enablers. which includes some of the obamabots posting on this blog. Of course cry baby barack hussein and better half don’t want any examination of themselves because that would be “politics as usual”. Face it obamadrones, your idol wears no clothes, spews platitudes and nonanities, is largely ignorant of world and US History and fears talking to the troops and generals in Iraq because for some inexplicable reason they desire to defeat terrorism and not kiss islamomutant asses in the way Obamawawa does. Geez, even the cheese-eating surrender monkeys are getting it, along with the Germans and Italians while our own fifth column continues to seek defeat a la Vietnam and beseeches the Congressional turds to stop victory now in any way possible. You punks who want defeat should carry white flags and paint a yellow stripe down your cowardly backs. Live free or die is apropos and not the camel dung islamo cry for hope! and change! marxism, incremental sharia law and catering to the imams by aclu and the libtards in the blue states. That also applies to black supremacism and affirmative action/reparations in all its guises.
    Whatever associations Barack has have hardly been revealed to any great extent.
    His whole past is a house of cards that hopefully will fall down upon him and his idolizers. Like I said the column 5/30/08 on http://rightwingnuthouse.com reveals many of the really evil aspects of Obama’s radical support groups from whom he developed his own philosphy. Read it and weep. Of course he now strives to cover up the BS which is spelled out in his own auto-bios without any real effort by the vrwc.

    madmax333 (e2fce3)

  101. Its a no-win for Obama. He quit because he wants to become president not for any noble or ethical reason.

    He just really, really wants to be POTUS and knows the only way to possibly put a kibosh on this unending mess once and for all is to resign membership.

    It would seem that pure ambition is what motivates him most.

    Dana (8225b8)

  102. #95 said
    If Barack Obama is gonna be held responsible for what has come across the pulpit of Trinity United Church of Christ then Billary Clinton should be held responsible for her former pastor’s sins of being convicted of child molestation. Check it for yourself. Let’s see if she can stand the same fire she’s put under Mr. Obama or will she turn on the waterworks & try to diflect this kind of scrutiny!!!
    ——————————————-
    There is known principle that defines the relation between a church-goer and his-pastor is :
    “DO WHAT SAY, DON’T DO WHAT THEY DO!”.
    So Obama in NOT responsible for priest’s facts, but for NOT understanding what they say. His lack of judgement tells us that in fact Obama did what his pastors said.
    It does not matter how Obama twists his church issue he’ll be FOREVER linked to church’s MESSAGE and IDEOLOGY!
    Amen!

    bhj2008 (f2e736)

  103. WASHINGTON – Democratic Party officials agreed Saturday to seat Michigan and Florida delegates with half-votes, ruling on a long-running dispute that has threatened the party’s chances in November and maintaining Barack Obama’s front-runner status as he moves closer to the nomination
    Is this the beginning of the end for Hillary? This Michigan, Florida issue has been the final straw keeping her hopes alive for a possible nomination victory. This ruling has all but put paid to that dream. Are we beginning to witness the end of Hillary’s candidacy or does she have some hidden surprises for us somewhere? She is never bereft of drama and surprises. What will she do next?

    love2008 (5189d2)

  104. You punks who want defeat should carry white flags and paint a yellow stripe down your cowardly backs. Live free or die is apropos and not the camel dung islamo cry for hope! and change! marxism, incremental sharia law and catering to the imams by aclu and the libtards in the blue states. That also applies to black supremacism and affirmative action/reparations in all its guises.
    Hey Maddy, you sound like you have alot of anger in you. Since you are so pro-war, why dont you join the army and get down to Iraq and fight this just and noble war of yours and never surrender till the last conceivable enemy of freedom is totally obliterated. You should not sit there shooting vitriols to perceived enemies on the blog. Be a man and get down there and fight!

    love2008 (5189d2)

  105. I agree sometimes that people can be over the top in their “clash of civilizations” frothing of “kill ’em all and burn their Korans”. But I equally don’t like the “well if you’re so in favor of this why don’t YOU enlist?” card. Sometimes though yeah the ‘America-fuck-yeah!’ loudmouths do need to be shown the door to the recruiting center as much as the America-is-the-root-of-evil “bite the hand that feeds you” self-absorbed dissidents need to be shown the door to another country.
    daley – I notice the challenge has yet to be answered. Too much substance I guess.

    Jack Klompus (b796b4)

  106. libtards are unable to actually explain just why they want their own country to lose wars or why they want some clueless mulatto, who thinks he is the return of Christ instead of the anti-christ he really aspires to be, to be POTUS. Keep ignoring the actual facts and attack the bearers of bad news for your homey boy. I’m not the one belittling the deaths and efforts of the miltary who defend you punks having free speech rights. Keep on waving that white flag and don’t complain when it is your turn to submit to islam as a slave or lose your heads. Though I do reckon the possibility of your being some smelly arab’s booty amore gives you visions of orgasmic contentment as you masturbate over pix of Urkel II. Hey, want a really cheap thrill- check out the retro pic of Lurch in his condom suit over at Hotair. sKerry looks like something out of flcik Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex but were Afraid to Ask. Picture Obambi, John Dean, Kerry and Gore all dressed up as sperm ready to ejacuate. So many losers, so little time. War is not the answer, only love2008 can conquer hate. Jajajaja.

    madmax333 (e2fce3)

  107. Ok, he resigned…now can we get back to the “real” issues.

    As if his embrace of hard leftism and anti-white, anti-Semitic bile ISN’T a “real” issue.

    Here’s a tip for you…if you can’t see that the EMBRACE of this hard leftism is an issue, you are too myopic to discuss it.

    If you can’t see that his EMBRACE of the Wright/Pfleger/Farrakhan worldview for TWENTY YEARS…is an issue, you are too biased to know what is “real” and what is not.

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  108. #104
    Though I do reckon the possibility of your being some smelly arab’s booty amore gives you visions of orgasmic contentment as you masturbate over pix of Urkel II. Hey, want a really cheap thrill- check out the retro pic of Lurch in his condom suit over at Hotair. sKerry looks like something out of flcik Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex but were Afraid to Ask. Picture Obambi, John Dean, Kerry and Gore all dressed up as sperm ready to ejacuate.
    I also noticed that you still have a lot of pent up sexual issues. Unresolved sexual fantasies that somehow you lack the courage nor will to execute. Your comments are never without filthy talk about fellating, blowjobs, orgasms, sperms and gabbage. You still have alot of growing up to do Maddy. This is a public place not your little boy’s room. you should know the difference. Exorcise yourself of all those filthy sexual perversions that destroy the souls of men and be free today!

    love2008 (5189d2)

  109. If Barack Obama is gonna be held responsible for what has come across the pulpit of Trinity United Church of Christ then Billary Clinton should be held responsible for her former pastor’s sins of being convicted of child molestation.

    G. Davis – If Billary’s pastor preached child molestation from the pulpit you might have a valid point.

    daleyrocks (5aa841)

  110. Jack – I don’t think Levi himself realizes how much unsupported tripe he packs into a single paragraph. It is a little overwhelming when you strip it all out.

    daleyrocks (5aa841)

  111. Love2008’s post should be directed at #105, not 104… Just saying…

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  112. “You realize that you are only aware of the existence of these ‘loony friends’ of his because you were told of their existence by the people that are trying to beat Obama in a campaign, don’t you?”

    This is a lie or evidence that this kid doesn’t know anything that he doesn’t get from the Obama web site. The videos originally shown of Wright and his nutball sermons were ON SALE BY THE CHURCH as a “best of” series. Nobody snuck in to tape him. The Pfleger video was apparently a Hillary operation since, I expect, the church is smart enough to stop peddling this stuff until after the election.

    There is another theory about this. If Obama actually got elected, it would undercut Wright and Moss’s argument that a black man can’t get anywhere in the racist USA. There are people who believe that Wright might actually be sabotaging Obama’s campaign although I doubt this. He may not care, however.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  113. You did it guys! You did it! You made somebody quit their church! Way to go everyone, when is the parade? Maybe we should burn some books, too!

    Levi (76ef55)

  114. Made somebody quit their church? Why would anyone quit a church they believe in because of bloggers/commenters?

    Your delusions of grandeur are surfacing again, Levi.

    Pablo (99243e)

  115. Can we get past this and focus on the issues?

    Yes, let’s continue our discussion of Obama’s judgment. I think it sucks.

    Pablo (99243e)

  116. #110
    Love2008’s post should be directed at #105, not 104… Just saying
    Thanks for pointing that out Scott. My apologies to Jack at #104…It was an error. It was directed to #105.

    love2008 (5189d2)

  117. Haha! It’s cool – I was looking at the post and yeah at first I thought “Haha whoa what I say??”

    “Maybe we should burn some books, too!”
    Since I vowed to stop cursing incessantly I’ll just let this gem of Levi’s stand on its own as a testament to his towering humanity.

    Jack Klompus (b796b4)

  118. #107 lovetron…I am merely repeating the lamestream media’s own words back. oops, I forgot you cannot satarize liberals’ views and own confessions. Read what Chris matthews and Olberdoychbag say about their feelings for Urkel or that video of various media types aroused by Urkel’s crotch exposed in tight jeans.

    Fwiw, your chicken hawk argument means nada to me. The miltary is controlled overall by civilians. Fact is I was in SE Asia much longer than your buddy Lurch’s four months. Alas I had no rice schrapnel wounds that allowed me to bail prematurely and I did not return to stab my fellow vets in the back with winter soldier Bullcarp or hobnobbing with viet cong in Paris while still in naval reserve. Funny how Bob Dole’s and McCain’s service counts for nothing and Kerry/Goracle did and the whole fake TANG story to stop Dubya’s reelections is somehow apropos even though I believe Bush’s flight training was far more hazardous than what Kerry or Gore were exposed to in ‘Nam. Bush volunteered for service in ‘Nam but was needed. So unfortunately he did not collect any magic hats or visit Cambodia when Nixon was potus Xmas of ’68, even though he was not inaugurated until Jan. ’69. And of course Bubba of Oral office fame was a draft dodger protesting the war while abroad and that also means nada to the moonbats.
    Anyway I was abroad when you were likely still crapping in your diapers and might be a tad over the hill now at 62. I’m sure you leftists would be far more active even against this war if there were still a draft you were subject to. Asd it is you all have to content yourself with hating america first and continuing to give hope to the jihadists. We all saw how potent the UN is and how willing they are to enforce their endless resolutions. Guess the far left knows in its heart that Urkel will throw Israel under the bus too and that gives them hope! for more change! As much as I despise the clintons, I have to admit she has bigger or more stones than obambi who wants to be carter act 2. Are that many Americans now dead after almost thirty years that people don’t recall what a total disaster Jimmuh was and continues to be? The so-caleld worst Prez of all time has at least taken the battle to the jihadists. I only wish he didn’t a better job of it plus standing up to the left and the so-called friendly A-rabs.

    madmax333 (c1f4e3)

  119. This is a lie or evidence that this kid doesn’t know anything that he doesn’t get from the Obama web site. The videos originally shown of Wright and his nutball sermons were ON SALE BY THE CHURCH as a “best of” series. Nobody snuck in to tape him. The Pfleger video was apparently a Hillary operation since, I expect, the church is smart enough to stop peddling this stuff until after the election.

    But you didn’t buy the video, which is my entire point. You found out the way everyone else found out. You found out the way I found out. It never would have occurred to you look into Obama’s pastor, just like it never would have occurred to me, because a few months ago, nobody cared what presidential candidates’ pastors said, and rightly so, because such an association is meaningless. Remember freedom of religion, remember separation of church and state?

    It was only after Obama started to pull ahead of Hillary Clinton, and Republicans realized they might have to run against the guy, a guy whom they have absolutely no argument against, that this ‘story’ got nonsensically amplified by right-wingers to the point that Obama is now forced to give every speech and answer every question in terms of his friendship with Rev. Wright. This is how your party works. This is how your party wins, by exploiting fear and stupidity. You can all run around thinking you’ve done something great here, that you’ve disrupted some sneaky politician by finding out some dark, secret truth, but you’re pawns, used like toilet paper for your votes, and specifically targeted because you’re especially shrill and uniquely influential.

    That’s how I see it anyway.

    There is another theory about this. If Obama actually got elected, it would undercut Wright and Moss’s argument that a black man can’t get anywhere in the racist USA. There are people who believe that Wright might actually be sabotaging Obama’s campaign although I doubt this. He may not care, however.

    Where has Wright ever made that argument? I’d venture to guess that you haven’t seen anything other than his ‘greatest hits’ as compiled by Fox News, but do you know anything else about the man?

    Did you even bother to look into it?

    Levi (76ef55)

  120. his friendship with Rev. Wright.

    That’s the thing… Hi “friendship” would suggest that he knew all about Rev. Wright’s beliefs, including how Whitey made AIDS to kill the black man. How can he then tell us he had no idea of what Wright thought/preached?

    This is how your party works

    You mean as opposed to running ads that suggest a person wants a statue build to honor a dead racist was the guy running in the election, even though it was a completely different guy, as even the most cursory of fact-checking would show?

    Seriously… We want Obama to explain his judgement, which he tells us is WHY we should vote for him. This same judgement led him to spend 20+ years around these sorts of folks, and in the case of Rev. Pfleger got him $100,000 while Sen Obama was in the State House. You can not rationally argue he had no inkling as to what these people thought/preached.

    He surrounded himself with people like Revs. Wright and Pfleger, and people like Ayers. With a voting record that could at best be described as “slight”, we have but his past associations and choices to judge him on. Those things leave him very wanting…

    his ‘greatest hits’ as compiled by Fox News

    Actually, that was compiled by his church… Blaming Fox News for those videos is like blaming…

    well, I dunno what it would be like, but it would be pretty stupid……

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  121. “You did it guys! You did it! You made somebody quit their church!”

    Wrong again Levi. His loony friends made him do it. Republicans aren’t even running against him yet and they aren’t the ones making insane statements from the pulpit. Kid, I think you’ve had one too many brain douches of leftism. Open your good eye.

    daleyrocks (810227)

  122. Lemme see…if Trinity United Christian Church wasn’t anything nefarious, then Obama abandoning his church shows a decided lack of backbone and commitment to his principles.

    Steverino (59aa89)

  123. because a few months ago, nobody cared what presidential candidates’ pastors said, and rightly so, because such an association is meaningless. Remember freedom of religion, remember separation of church and state?
    .

    A couple of points. First, religious association has been “an issue” in presidential elections before. Obama isn’t “the first.” JFK was “the first Catholic,” and at the time it was a significant issue in the campaign. In this election cycle, Romney’s association with the Mormon church was/is a significant issue; and Huckabee’s close association with the church (he’s a pastor) is a non-trivial consideration.

    .

    So, it’s not odd or unusual or “needless digging for dirt” that people would (and I think SHOULD) have an interest in the messages promulgated by the churches that the current candidates attend. Generally, the candidates belong to “mainstream” churches, meaning that whatever the messages, they aren’t inclined to make much of a political impact one way or the other. To the extent there isn’t political interest in the candidate’s choice of church, it’s because the message of the church is inclusive and peaceful.

    .

    That being said, Obama’s candidacy is, as far as I recall, the first time a presidential contender chose membership in a church that preaches the theology of Black Liberation. I don’t count Jesse Jackson as a contender, and haven’t looked back to see how his religious affiliation was treated during his run.

    .

    Each voter will assign a value to the candidate’s chosen religious affiliation. You are entitled to assign church association as “meaningless” for whatever reason you want, but you aren’t entitled to (nor can you) prevent others from assigning substantial weight to the same factor.

    .

    And to assign a low weight to an issue when evaluating a candidate for office, on the basis of some constitutional principle (e.g., “separation of church and state”) doesn’t make any sense to me. I don’t see anybody trying to use the government to stifle free expression. In fact, the opposite. The public wants MORE and HONEST expression in order to attempt to peek into the heart and soul of each candidate.

    .

    Nobody forced Barack Obama to join Trinity, and nobody forced him to disassociate himself. He’s making choices of his own free will – and those choices, and his stated rationale for them, are legitimately useful for building informed speculation (because one can never KNOW another’s heart, for sure) about his ultimate principles.

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  124. Reading through the comments for entertainment, this statement struck my attention:

    The media is supposed to be objective

    Bless your naive heart, but among the several functions of the media, NONE of them is “to be objective.” Most of the media organs CLAIM to be objective, but that doesn’t make them so. The “fourth estate” and media objectivity are current myths, used (and effectively so) to manipulate gullible people.
    .
    To the extent one accepts or seeks the media as presenting facts to be adopted as “objective reality,” is an extent one gives up independent judgment. To the extent the public believes the media is objective, the public becomes manipulable at will.
    .
    Not that media never gets it right — but trust them at your own risk.

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  125. It was only after Obama started to pull ahead of Hillary Clinton, and Republicans realized they might have to run against the guy,

    Actually…no.Most, if not virtually ALL of the vetting concerning the very troubling associations, comments, and the content of his “inner circle” of Sen. Obama…have been revealed…by liberal Democrats….or from the words of the candidate himself and his wife.

    The NYTImes and Newsweek did articles about the connection to Rev. Wright. Neither has any biased connection with conservatives or Republicans. Quite the contrary.

    The “clinging” statement was revealed…at the Huffington blog.

    The autobiography that sought to explain his “rise to sainthood” goes into detail about the influence of Wright and why he chose that church over all the others available to him.

    a guy whom they have absolutely no argument against,

    This is pure idolatry and projection. HILLARY’S argument against him…seems to work quite well in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kentucky, West Virginia, Texas. Those were DEMOCRATS who were offended and put off by his statements, associations and positions.

    that this ’story’ got nonsensically amplified by right-wingers to the point that Obama is now forced to give every speech and answer every question in terms of his friendship with Rev. Wright.

    Again, I find this argument weak and I also find it actually fans the flames of resentment even further. It HURTS Sen. Obama every time he and one of his drooling lackeys spouts it.

    It simply doesn’t pass the smell test. Character matters. Worldview matters. Belief system matters. CLOSE associations matter. What you embrace your whole life…helps define you. What you choose to NEVER embrace…helps define you.

    Leftists continue to (what now must be considered intentional distortion)suggest that NOBODY is responsible for the words, acts or deeds of another.

    Really? Why is Sen. Obama running against President Bush instead of McCain? Why does he try to ASSOCIATE McCain with Bush at every turn? In reality, McCain over the last 20 years has shown SUBSTANTIALLY more distance from Bush…than Sen. Obama has shown from Wright, Pfleger, Ayers & Dorhn, and the Nation of Islam.

    It is the depth of the connection, (and conversely, the depth of the association) that EACH side’s voters are vetting and examining. It is seeking the actual worldview and belief system and trying to find how closely it matches in each instance.

    Because each side knows…without those people in the center for whom the hard right and the hard left are not appetizing thoughts…that vetting is important. So far, McCain appears to be less hard right…than Obama appears to be hard left.

    Conservatives, Reagan Democrats AND INDEPENDENTS will run…flee en masse…from the hard leftist, socialist, Marxist, racist, anti-Semitic ragings of Wright, Pfleger, Farrakhan, Ayers, Dorhn, Ali Abunimah, Edward Said, Chomsky, Malley, McPeak, Brzezinski.

    This is how your party works. This is how your party wins, by exploiting fear and stupidity.

    Well, the liberal far left have been using fear and stupidity as mother’s milk. Telling everyone that Republicans will take Social Security away from old people, that corporations are evil, that Republicans wish to steal their freedoms.

    Leftists have been lying about America for 40 years. Giving away national defense secrets and spying against the country, rooting against the country. They wish to take the country down and make it something else. “Useful idiots” I believe they were called by the very system that used them as dupes.

    You can all run around thinking you’ve done something great here, that you’ve disrupted some sneaky politician by finding out some dark, secret truth, but you’re pawns,

    Something useful has been done…Sen. Obama and Michelle got a life lesson that I suspect they will long remember. You can’t live your life as a fish and pretend to be a bird.

    The company you keep, the company you embrace…help define you. If you hang out with skinheads, you go to church with your arms embraced around David Duke, if you attend Neo-Nazi meetings regularly…and then you try to run as a moderate who loves Jewish people and blacks…nobody is going to believe you.

    Those deeds are worth a thousand empty rhetoric stump speeches. No matter how artfully delivered.

    The anti-white bile and venom that spews from those pulpits, the marxist hatefest for capitalism and free market enterprise…that matters. And closing your eyes and throwing a tantrum when anyone looks at it…HURTS OBAMA.

    It simply exacerbates the feeling that “he has something to hide”. Screaming, screeching, wildly flailing your arms and yelling DON’T LOOK HERE, THERE’S NOTHING TO SEE, MOVE ALONG!!!!!”…well, any litigator will tell you, when a witness does that…THAT’S where the ammo is stashed. Keep digging.

    used like toilet paper for your votes, and specifically targeted because you’re especially shrill and uniquely influential.

    Inane argument. Conservatives were never going to vote for Obama. Just as hard leftists are never going to vote for McCain. Those votes are set.

    The shrill liars are on the left. The reason that this issue has traction…is that Sen. Obama appears to have no answer for it. And it matters…no matter how many tantrums leftists throw saying it doesn’t.

    If Obama loses the middle…Reagan Democrats and Independents…he will lose an election that ought to have been a walkover.

    The leftists keep screaming about the “vast right wing conspiracy”, made up of “white people, corporate America, and religion clingers”…but, apparently they are too busy screeching to realize …that tantrum is pissing off the very people they need to get their guy elected.

    It is NOT enough that Sen. Obama simply NOW try to distance himself from that ugly and pathetic worldview…he needs to explain…satisfactorily…what his attraction to it was for the last 20 years. Why he embraced it in the first place.

    How it is any different from Frank Marshall Davis, whom he also embraced. Or his most radical professors.

    He can run…but he can’t hide…from his entire past. And yes…for the Bulge and Spittle crowd on the far left…it matters.

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  126. A couple of points. First, religious association has been “an issue” in presidential elections before. Obama isn’t “the first.” JFK was “the first Catholic,” and at the time it was a significant issue in the campaign. In this election cycle, Romney’s association with the Mormon church was/is a significant issue; and Huckabee’s close association with the church (he’s a pastor) is a non-trivial consideration.

    This is different. Nobody is talking about Obama’s Christianity, people are calling him a whitey-hating Communist because an entirely different human being said some things, and since Obama went to that guy’s church, well then he must agree with all of them. That’s an impossible and unprecedented standard, and you know it.

    So, it’s not odd or unusual or “needless digging for dirt” that people would (and I think SHOULD) have an interest in the messages promulgated by the churches that the current candidates attend. Generally, the candidates belong to “mainstream” churches, meaning that whatever the messages, they aren’t inclined to make much of a political impact one way or the other. To the extent there isn’t political interest in the candidate’s choice of church, it’s because the message of the church is inclusive and peaceful.

    I don’t what constitutes ‘mainstream’ to you, but the United Church of Christ has over a million members and 5,000 congregations, and they’re one of the most ‘inclusive and peaceful’ varieties of Christianity in this country, and yes, I would apply those labels to both Rev. Wright and Trinity church.

    If it just blows your mind that I can say that, just compare Wright’s, Trinity’s, and the UCC’s welcoming and tolerance of gays compared to the prominent fundamentalist evangelicals which you would likely consider ‘mainstream.’ Pat Robertson’s and Jerry Falwell’s first instinct after 9-11 was to blame the whole thing on gays. To pretend like that sort of message isn’t inclined to have a ‘political impact’ is to be extremely disingenuous, these guys have been king-makers in the Republican party for years. Is that an inclusive, peaceful message? The two guys that McCain sought out this year to campaign for him believe centrally that America was founded to destroy Islam. Rev. Wright has never openly advocated invading other countries, has he? He’s never targeted another religion as an inferior and evil problem that must be eliminated, has he? So whose message is inclusive? Whose message is peaceful?

    Save your breath if all you have to say to this is, “Twenty! TWENTY YEARS!”

    That being said, Obama’s candidacy is, as far as I recall, the first time a presidential contender chose membership in a church that preaches the theology of Black Liberation. I don’t count Jesse Jackson as a contender, and haven’t looked back to see how his religious affiliation was treated during his run.

    Who cares?

    Each voter will assign a value to the candidate’s chosen religious affiliation. You are entitled to assign church association as “meaningless” for whatever reason you want, but you aren’t entitled to (nor can you) prevent others from assigning substantial weight to the same factor.

    I can call you propaganda-chugging, group-thinking idiots for doing it though, am I entitled to that?

    And to assign a low weight to an issue when evaluating a candidate for office, on the basis of some constitutional principle (e.g., “separation of church and state”) doesn’t make any sense to me. I don’t see anybody trying to use the government to stifle free expression. In fact, the opposite. The public wants MORE and HONEST expression in order to attempt to peek into the heart and soul of each candidate.

    That isn’t what’s happening, nobody making an issue out of Rev. Wright cares about Obama’s heart and soul. He’s tried to explain himself and defend himself hundreds of times at this point. He wrote his own speech on race, which is quite literally something that never happens in American politics, and Republican quarters greeted it as little more than insincere political pandering. To judge Obama’s ‘heart and soul,’ you people rely exclusively on 2 minutes of Rev. Wright’s sound bites while discounting everything Obama himself has to say. I’m supposed to take your ‘concerns and worries’ seriously when you refuse to take Obama at his word? No thanks.

    Nobody forced Barack Obama to join Trinity, and nobody forced him to disassociate himself. He’s making choices of his own free will – and those choices, and his stated rationale for them, are legitimately useful for building informed speculation (because one can never KNOW another’s heart, for sure) about his ultimate principles.

    Informed speculation. What. A. Joke. It’s not like we can never know what principles a person holds, what they value. We could ask Obama about his ultimate principals, we could examine what he’s done with his life, what he’s voted for, what jobs he’s taken. We could discuss what he says he would do with the office of the Presidency, and from there, we could gather what his ultimate principals are, but meh. You’d rather just go with ‘informed speculation.’ Based entirely on 2 minutes of somebody else giving speeches. Just like the founding fathers would have wanted! Don’t listen to anything a candidate has to say, just rampantly speculate!

    Tell me, smarty-pants, what conclusions has your ‘informed speculation’ lead you to about Obama?

    Levi (76ef55)

  127. Tell me, smarty-pants, what conclusions has your “informed speculation” lead you to about Obama?
    .

    I posted that way above, at # 18. “I think Obama is a huckster and opportunist. I’m not sure he REALLY buys the black liberation theology schtick, but he found an opportunity in associating with it.”

    .

    The fact that you find the positions of Robertson, et al “of interest” proves my point, that the religious affiliation of a candidate is a topic of interest. I hear you trying to “shoo” people away from that consideration in the case of Obama, and that’s certainly your prerogative. You can even assign “propaganda-chugging, group-thinking idiot” to me, if you want.

    .

    You’d rather just go with “informed speculation.” Based entirely on 2 minutes of somebody else giving speeches.

    .

    You’re a real hoot. I can spot a carnival barker at 100 yards. Obama is one, Huckabee is one, etc. The list is pretty long. “Entirely on 2 minutes of somebody else” Hahahahah!!!! Negative, grasshopper.

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  128. Tell me, smarty-pants, what conclusions has your ‘informed speculation’ lead you to about Obama?

    He is a talentless hack without an ounce of character, a shadow puppet whose strings are pulled by probably the most capable, sophisticated and corrupt political machine in the country.

    nk (6c75e0)

  129. “He wrote his own speech on race, which is quite literally something that never happens in American politics, and Republican quarters greeted it as little more than insincere political pandering”

    Levi – Based on his actions since the speech, That is exactly what it turned out to be. Obama has had something like eight positions on Wright. I would call that pandering for political expediency as opposed to taking a principled stand, but you have blinders on so you will call it something else. Take a look at the vast library of Wright clips out there Levi, if you dare, instead of repeating your ridiculous mantra about two minutes of clips. Your juvenile defense of Obama’s poor judgement is laughable since it changes from comment to comment. You are the individual who raised the first amendment separation issue and then said nobody was talking about it in your next comment.

    Moron.

    daleyrocks (ed580b)

  130. I will insert a word … “my point, that the religious affiliation of a candidate is a legitimate topic of interest”

    .

    JMO, and of course other are free to totally discount a candidate’s religious association.

    .

    And it should be obvious that there will be differences of outcome among those who DO consider religious association, and see exactly the same association. For example, those who subscribe to Black Liberation Theology would be inclined to vote for a candidate that they believed embraced the same or similar theology.

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  131. I would apply those labels [the most ‘inclusive and peaceful’ varieties of Christianity in this country] to both Rev. Wright and Trinity church.

    .

    ’nuff said.

    cboldt (3d73dd)


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