Patterico's Pontifications

4/30/2008

Hawaiian Sovereignty

Filed under: Miscellaneous — DRJ @ 5:41 pm

[Guest post by DRJ]

A group of native Hawaiians has taken over the Iolani Palace museum in Honolulu in order to peacefully protest Hawaiian statehood and support Hawaiian sovereignty.

Is there any group of people left in America that doesn’t feel oppressed?

— DRJ

134 Responses to “Hawaiian Sovereignty”

  1. I hope they’re ready to fight the Japanese.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  2. My cat doesn’t feel oppressed. Then again, it rejects the very notion of authority.

    Kevin Murphy (805c5b)

  3. If they go, will they please take San Francisco with them?

    Kevin Murphy (805c5b)

  4. Is there any group of people left in America that doesn’t feel oppressed?

    DRJ – It all depends on which pills I’ve taken. There is help available you know.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  5. I feel better already knowing there are a few beings left that don’t feel oppressed, even if they are cats and medicated humans.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  6. Kevin claiming he is able to talk with his cat may have other issues DRJ, but I was going to let that pass.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  7. I have a friend who was born and raised in Tonga (goes back once a year to visit family), now a naturalized American she is quite open in her disdain for the monarchy there.

    Betcha the “Hawaii for Hawaiians” movement crowd all visualize themselves as part of the new king/queen’s court, not one of the lower, common, enslaved classes.

    Darleen (187edc)

  8. That’s it… No more Spam for them!!!

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  9. I think there’s a bunch of very old men up in Arkham who haven’t complained lately.

    On the serious side, there’s more rationality behind this than most of these groups: Hawaii became American territory because of what was effectively a coup d’etat by American businessmen. I believe at one point Congress nearly rejected the idea because of that.

    kishnevi (da26af)

  10. Not a laughing matter – this is the only state where there are decent (mostly) people who truly want to establish a completely different form of government. Our ineffective state government, terrible schools, high cost of living, crappy jobs and persistent underclass with a racial grudge make trouble a real possibility. Now? I doubt it, but who knows.

    Dean (279254)

  11. Is there any group of people left in America that doesn’t feel oppressed?

    Those ungrateful Hawaiians. We only killed them off by the thousands, and look, now they’re covered in military bases. What could they possibly have to complain about?

    Levi (76ef55)

  12. Throw in Puerto Rico and you have a deal!
    The fewer Democrats in America, the better.

    Perfect Sense (b6ec8c)

  13. Levi – the Hawaiians were done in by diseases in frightful numbers after contact; there were no mass killings, which is what you’re implying. The Hawaiians themselves were doing a most expert job of killing each other prior to contact. There are a number of high profile military bases on Oahu, but very little else on the neighbor islands.

    Dean (279254)

  14. Levi – the Hawaiians were done in by diseases in frightful numbers after contact; there were no mass killings, which is what you’re implying. The Hawaiians themselves were doing a most expert job of killing each other prior to contact. There are a number of high profile military bases on Oahu, but very little else on the neighbor islands.

    Oh, we didn’t kill them by the thousands, our diseases did. You think that takes the sting out of having your culture decimated? I wouldn’t know because I’m obviously not from their perspective, but if a group of settlers commits near-genocide on your people and way of life, I don’t think you’re going to spend too much time caring whether the near-genocide was deliberate or inadvertent. Would you?

    Levi (76ef55)

  15. Yup – inadvertant versus deliberate is an important distinction.

    Dean (279254)

  16. Yup – inadvertant versus deliberate is an important distinction.

    At the end of the day, when everyone you’ve ever known or loved is dead or dying slowly and the white man has taken all your land, I don’t think it is. ‘But we didn’t mean to wipe out 95% of your population, can’t we all just get along?’ Yeah, sure, I know that would make me feel better!

    Levi (76ef55)

  17. At the end of the day, when everyone you’ve ever known or loved is dead or dying slowly and the white man has taken all your land, I don’t think it is. ‘But we didn’t mean to wipe out 95% of your population, can’t we all just get along?’ Yeah, sure, I know that would make me feel better!

    When can we start deporting all those people with AIDS, Levi. After all, Lord knows…we don’t want to catch their diseases. It didn’t stem from here…and since Africa is rampant with AIDS, perhaps we can prevent any immigration from there.

    Of course, we all know about getting Montezuma’s revenge if you drink the water in some parts of the world…so, getting rid of legal and illegal immigrants from those countries would help as well.

    Yep, you have me convinced…Levi. Let’s blame DISEASES for a reason people shouldn’t move to new countries. Very sound logic.

    By the way…do you EVER stop bashing your own country? If not…if you are disease free…why do you stay?

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  18. “Not a laughing matter – this is the only state where there are decent (mostly) people who truly want to establish a completely different form of government”

    Isn’t it also the only state where the US government overthrew the local government to make them a colony and then a state?

    I suppose one could say we did something similar to southern treason, but they were already states. If we did include them, we’d still find that there’s still some victimhood and whining there about their conquest and subjugation.

    stef (7ae49a)

  19. Levi, objectively, does not even like Amerikkka. He is proud of this country about as often as Baracky’s wife.

    JD (5f0e11)

  20. Those ungrateful Hawaiians. We only killed them off by the thousands, and look, now they’re covered in military bases. What could they possibly have to complain about?

    *sigh*

    You are aware that the USA weren’t the folks who discovered Hawaii, right? I mean, you DO know that, yes?

    Here, since i know you’re utterly horrid at actually looking stuff up:

    The first recorded European contact with the islands was in 1778 by British explorer James Cook. Substantial evidence (Stokes 1932) exists, however, of earlier Spanish, and possibly Irish, visits to Hawaii. Hawaii is one of three U.S. States that were independent prior to joining or being annexed by the U.S.——Vermont Republic, 1791;Republic of Texas, 1845; and Hawai`i. Of these, Hawai`i and Texas were the only ones with formal international diplomatic recognition.[9] The Kingdom of Hawaii existed from 1810 until 1893 when the monarchy was overthrown by native born Hawaiians of American ancestry. It was an independent republic from 1894 until 1898, when it was annexed by the United States. It became a territory in 1900, and has been a state since 1959.

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  21. And on an unrelated note: DRJ, I’m disappointed…

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  22. Hawaiians, as residents of a sovereign US state, have more real sovereignty than most people in the world. If they don’t like their government they are free to change it. Same thing here in Pennsylvania. Let them start a party and seek election.

    And let’s be straight with our history. The US only annexed Hawaii to keep it from the British. Hawaii sovereignty would not have lasted. An island chain’s chances were zero, they were completely defenseless and they knew it. There were only a few places in the world that escaped European imperialism, and few annexed territories had self-determination rights comparable to those the old Hawaii Territory had from day one.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  23. Scott –

    You are aware that they ATE Captain Cook, right?

    possibly Irish – you have got to be kidding

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  24. *shrugs*

    Maybe that’s where they got the taste for white-meat? Hell, I dunno…

    And they ATE Cook? Seriously? Heh… Those damn Americans… Oh, wait…

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  25. I blame President Bush for all of his fucking screw ups this is another example of his failure to see a potential situation arising and failure to do anything about it when it became apparent if he was not stuck in that fucking war of his choosing in Iraq maybe he could have quelled the insurrection in the states and if the whiteys had never invaded Hawaii the islands would still be a tropical paradise where Peter and Jan Brady could vacation without fear of running into an American military base.

    The ghost of Levi (75f5c3)

  26. We only killed them off by the thousands

    Sorry, I just don’t believe this. Who exactly is we? Did you kill any of them?

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  27. Sorry, I just don’t believe this. Who exactly is we? Did you kill any of them?

    Republicans. White people. Boooooosh voters. Amerikkkans who disagree with me. Killers, all.

    The ghost of Levi (75f5c3)

  28. Look morons, the Hawaiians have a legitimate gripe, just as other Native Americans do. This statement:

    Is there any group of people left in America that doesn’t feel oppressed?

    is pretty fucking stupendous. All your bullshit about entitlement and victimhood has clearly warped your thinking if you’re unable to see that native Hawaiians are legitimate victims. I mean what would it take? What does somebody have to go through to be seen as a victim to the right? (hint: you have to be a white evangelical Christian.)

    I haven’t bashed America for anything we haven’t done. You can’t make a more perfect union by pretending that the horrible things we’ve done in our past didn’t happen. If you’re completely indifferent to the plight of these few thousand Hawaiians, who are Americans, I’m supposed to believe you’re legitimately concerned with the plight of the Iraqi people, a bunch of non-Americans a half a world away whose country we’ve destroyed? Yeah right.

    Levi (76ef55)

  29. You forgot “Racists”…

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  30. I haven’t bashed America for anything we haven’t done.

    We slaughtered thousands of natives in Hawaii?

    You can’t make a more perfect union by pretending that the horrible things we’ve done in our past didn’t happen.

    You speaking of this makes me laugh. You would not recognize a more perfect union if it sat in your lap and called you Daddy.

    JD (75f5c3)

  31. FREE HAWAII !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!eleventy1!

    JD (75f5c3)

  32. We slaughtered thousands of natives in Hawaii?

    I never said we murdered them all with machetes or a bombing campaign or some shit. But we did get all of them killed.

    You speaking of this makes me laugh. You would not recognize a more perfect union if it sat in your lap and called you Daddy.

    So, the way to a more perfect union, in your mind, is to talk about America like we’re the infallible culmination of all civilization that has no blood on its hands whatsoever?

    Levi (76ef55)

  33. But we did get all of them killed.

    IT WAS THE ENGLISH, NOT AMERICANS, YOU TWIT!!!

    Are you seriously that dense? That unable to wrap your head around FACTS??

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  34. He is proud of this country about as often as Baracky’s wife.

    Not true. Mrs. Obama has been proud of her country once in her life. I have yet to see Levi say that even once.

    kishnevi (3cf898)

  35. IT WAS THE ENGLISH, NOT AMERICANS, YOU TWIT!!!

    Are you seriously that dense? That unable to wrap your head around FACTS??

    English, Americans, white people, it doesn’t make any difference. This:

    Is there any group of people left in America that doesn’t feel oppressed?

    is a stupid thing to say, an indicator of how far you people have taken this ‘victimhood’ theme you’ve been hammering so hard for so many years.

    Levi (76ef55)

  36. Are you seriously that dense? That unable to wrap your head around FACTS??

    Yes, he is. You knew that already.

    kishnevi (3cf898)

  37. Damnit people… Stop faking the Levi tag. If you want to be retarded, do it under your own tag…

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  38. Yes, he is. You knew that already.

    Yeah, sorry about that…

    Usually I just ask that question to myself is silent amazement…

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  39. English, Americans, white people, it doesn’t make any difference.

    I seem to recall that it made a big deal of difference back around 1776 and 1812.

    kishnevi (3cf898)

  40. I seem to recall that it made a big deal of difference back around 1776 and 1812.

    Not to Hawaiians, who were too busy dying en masse to notice.

    Even if that distinction is meaningful, Americans ended up with 100% of the spoils.

    Levi (76ef55)

  41. English, Americans, white people, it doesn’t make any difference.

    I seem to recall that it made a big deal of difference back around 1776 and 1812.

    Piddly details, piddly details…

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  42. English, Americans, white people, it doesn’t make any difference.

    Yes, it does. You say you want to make this nation a more perfect union by recognizing the bad things its done. It doesn’t help anyone to attribute the deeds of others to this country.

    One would think you’d understand that much….

    Steverino (e00589)

  43. Levi, your incompetence is matched only by your ignorance.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  44. Levi,

    In what country would you be happy and proud to be a citizen? Maybe the posters here would chip in and buy you a one-way ticket to your nirvana.

    PCD (5c49b0)

  45. Levy:

    native Hawaiians are legitimate victims

    You haven’t stated anything but your unsupported opinion. Who is we? What makes a victim legitimate? How are native Hawaiians any more victims than the rest of us on this planet? I’m still smarting over the Iroquois atrocities against my ancestors, and before that the Hapsburgs driving them from their homeland. But I won’t whine about it because I’m a free citizen of the US. I am no victim.

    Your speaking for Native Hawaiians, as if you know that they all think of themselves as victims, is arrogant.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  46. I just loved this one:
    “…Hawaiians …as other Native Americans do…”

    I hate to tell our resident foul-mouthed, bird-brain, but Hawaiians are not “Native-Americans”, they are Polynesians – different gene pool.

    And (snark alert), they only ate Cook (British) because of the ealier influence of their contact with the Irish – those Irish were excellent teachers in how to react to Brit (or as my Aussie friends would say: Pommy Bastard) presence.

    Another Drew (f9dd2c)

  47. Stand back for a moment, in seconds, Levi will start quoting Ward Churchill.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  48. i am also sympathetic to the estate of the native hawaiians, although i don’t support their secession from the union (at least until oregon is allowed to secede). comments mocking them for feeling like oppressed victims when in fact they’ve been oppressed by white people since the first one showed up are in poor taste, in some cases verging on veiled racism. we did hawaii like china is doing tibet right now.

    assistant devil's advocate (e87f0a)

  49. #47 SPQR:

    Stand back for a moment, in seconds, Levi will start quoting Ward Churchill.

    Whew, startled me for a second there…I saw the W & the Churchill and thought you’d lost you’re mind for a moment.

    Then realized of course that there isn’t any chance that he’s familiar with Winston.

    EW1(SG) (84e813)

  50. Huh. Twice in two days I’m transposing the possessive form for whatever the heck form “you’re”
    is.

    No wonder I never done good dia.. diag.. drawing out sentunces.

    EW1(SG) (84e813)

  51. additionally, scott jacobs (#20) left out a state in his list of states that were previously independent countries. it lasted less than a month, but the vestige of that glory remains on the flag of that state today. “california republic”

    assistant devil's advocate (e87f0a)

  52. Tell it to Wikipedia… :)

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  53. wikipedia already knows.

    assistant devil's advocate (e87f0a)

  54. Funny… My block was cut and pasted directly from Wiki…

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  55. Isn’t it also the only state where the US government overthrew the local government to make them a colony and then a state?

    Um, no, that would be most states. The original 13 don’t meet those criteria only because it was the British government, not the as-yet nonexistent U.S. one, that did the overthrowing and colonizing before they became states. Ditto for Alaska, the Louisiana Purchase and arguably the Mexican cession, where other governments did the original dirty work before we took over where they left off. Every other state is just like Hawaii in this regard.

    Xrlq (b71926)

  56. And actually, it was native-borns of american decent that over threw the KING. They were still an autonomous state for some time before we annexed…

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  57. English, Americans, white people, it doesn’t make any difference

    This one should be bookmarked and saved. The unadulterated stooopidity oozing from this statement is breath-taking …

    JD (75f5c3)

  58. That one sentence sums up the entire “victimhood” issue….you can’t be a victim if you are “white” and if you have any “color” at all you must be a victim of the “whites”…

    reff (bff229)

  59. scott, wikipedia isn’t entirely internally consistent. you can find wikis which stand in direct contradiction to other wikis. this can be a problem when your knowledge base about something is derived entirely from the internet. i was born in california and lived there for 46 years. i practiced law there for 15 years. i’ve stood on the site of the bear flag revolt. knowledgeable californians (who got their knowledge in childhood before there was an internet) are proud of this episode in california history.

    assistant devil's advocate (e87f0a)

  60. Or, as has been said by wiser men, it is a Quantum Encyclopedia, where true fact both exists and does not exist, depending on the whim of the discordant mob…

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  61. English, Americans, white people, it doesn’t make any difference.

    Yes it does when you say

    I haven’t bashed America for anything we haven’t done.

    h0mi (1ac006)

  62. I would say that Hawaiians are some of the most fortunate native peoples (or, if you prefer, Victims) in the world.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  63. Excuse me, but nobody is saying that America hasn’t done bad things. That’s a straw man. What I am trying to expose is the typical liberal playbook –

    vague generalities

    exaggeration

    lack of context

    lack of perspective

    If we are going to criticize America’s involvement with Hawaii, fine. Be specific, and give perspective. Don’t just throw stones and try to pass off a phony collective guilt trip. You may find that what you thought was bad (meaning it does not meet your high ideals) is actually quite good (meaning in the perspective of the real world).

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  64. How far back would Levi wish to affix blame? Is there an accepted statute of limitations?

    The effects on populations when contact is made between long separated land areas is well documented. It hardly started with rabbits in Australia or small pox in the Americas, let alone diseases in Hawaii. Paleontologists have found evidence of major die-offs in the fossil record after separated land masses joined.

    Some archaeolgists have speculated that the ancestors of the American Indians brought disease and parasites with them from Asia. I would not be surprised if the ancestors of the Hawaiians did the same to the islands when they arrived.

    Of course, the islands themselves were sterile volcanic outcroppings until colonized by invasive and opportunistic life forms.

    jim2 (6482d8)

  65. I suggest we refer to legitimate victims with a capital V, as in Victims, in deference to their exalted status. Illegitimate victims would only warrant a lower-case v.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  66. Is there any group of people left in America that doesn’t feel oppressed?

    I am a white male who has to work for a living; I certainly feel oppressed!

    Dana R Pico (3e4784)

  67. Those damn Americans (white people, tan, who cares) made Eve eat that apple… now look what that did to Hawai’i!!!

    Verlin Martin (f359ef)

  68. Always wondered how people would react if one of OUR states got on the independence bandwagon and demanded sovereignty. I’ve had many conversations about Kosovo or any one of the Russian -stans, tibet, etc.etc. where there is support for the breakaway state and I always got the same reaction when I asked, well, what if (state) wanted to secede? It was incredulity. WHY would they want to? —well, except for my home state Texas, then of course it was always “Let ’em! Who cares!”(naturally I just assumed that reaction was jealousy speaking). It really is bizarre to consider that any large group would actually want to LEAVE the US isn’t it? Even all those “America Hating libs” that everyone is always going on about. Even those people aren’t moving to the EU or anything.

    So when do you think the Govt. will start calling these guys terrorists? If there is violence? What about if they break the water fountains or read someones correspondance in that building? Property damage counts as terrorism now right? Do they go to Guantanamo or can the Govt. grant them sovereignty and then “aggressively interrogate” the leaders on site since they would no longer be on American soil? (yah yah being cynical here).

    EdWood (06cafa)

  69. I thought immigration was a good thing. I guess it is only good when the immigrants themselves are Victims or when the native population is not already full of Victims.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  70. How far back would Levi wish to affix blame? Is there an accepted statute of limitations?

    Levi wants to affix blame based on race. If you’re white, you’re guilty of something.

    Steverino (e00589)

  71. Ed, I’ll do you one better…

    Chicago – it can leave the State and the Country any time it wants. I would like the chance for my vote in a state-wide election to actually matter.

    And Berkley can just fall into the ocean, for all I care. :)

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  72. it lasted less than a month, but the vestige of that glory remains on the flag of that state today. “california republic”

    Don’t forget that San Francisco also had it’s very own emperor.

    Taltos (4dc0e8)

  73. Taltos, it thinks it still does.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  74. And multiple queens, as well.

    jim2 (6482d8)

  75. Levi, I think this is the first time I have responded to the stupidity of your posts. So you think being an American citizen is some kind of victimhood? If you really think that, why is it you do not renounce your citizenship and move to the utopian nation of your choice. Levi, just as a matter of curiosity. Which nation do you think, besides the USA, has a constitution that includes a bill or rights?

    Zelsdorf Ragshaft III (e18128)

  76. Levi is probably very impressed with all of the “rights” guaranteed by the Soviet Constitution.
    Somebody remind me how that turned out.

    Another Drew (f9dd2c)

  77. France?

    Leviticus (68eff1)

  78. Yeh, France!
    Now there’s a country where everyone gets along. All that “Liberty, Equality, Fraternity” thing is really working well.
    How many cars will they burn this week-end?

    Another Drew (f9dd2c)

  79. That’s not le friggin’ point, is it? The point is, Zelsdork is an idiot. Case closed.

    Leviticus (68eff1)

  80. No, Leviticus. ZR-III is spot-on.
    The greatest accident of birth is to be born in the USA!
    If it was otherwise, we would have to put up gates to keep people in, not out.
    Every country can be rated by the direction that toes point: A good country will have people klammering to get in; A bad country will have people leaving by every means possible.
    Care to tell me what the score is on the USofA?

    Another Drew (f9dd2c)

  81. True enough, thought they DID do the whole “Constitution w/ Bill of Rights” after we did… Maybe it would be better to point one out that beat us to the punch?

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  82. A) Why?
    B) You’re partially wrong: the French Bill of Rights was adopted in 1789; the US Bill of Rights was adopted in 1791.

    Leviticus (68eff1)

  83. “Which nation do you think, besides the USA, has a constitution that includes a bill or rights?”

    – Zelsdork

    “France does.”

    – Leviticus (paraphrase)

    “No, Leviticus. ZR-III is spot-on.”

    – Another Drew

    No. He’s not.

    Leviticus (68eff1)

  84. All Hawaiians became full US citizens upon annexation. That is incredible – there is virtually no precedent for it. Hawaii was NOT a US colony.

    Algeria was considered an integral part of France until the 1960s, but 90% of Algerians were not granted French citizenship. The same goes for just about any other “colony” in the colonial era, including Hong Kong. Within a few years of the Hawaii annexation England ruled entire subcontinents from afar, the Europeans were devouring Africa (Italy failed to conquer Ethiopia in 1896), the UK threatened Venezuela, Japan was carving up China and Korea, and even tiny Belgium, Portugal, and the Netherlands ruled tens of millions with no thought to self-determination.

    Those who consider America an empire wouldn’t know an empire even if it moved in next door.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  85. More extremists being supported by the radical left they should be driven out arrested convicted and banished to a remote island for life

    krazy kagu (b3eb4a)

  86. Heh…

    Oh the irony, Krazy…

    Scott Jacobs (fa5e57)

  87. France oh yah. They celebrate Bastille Day … rather like Germany celebrating Krystal Nacht.

    quasimodo (de6a1d)

  88. English, Americans, white people, it doesn’t make any difference

    For our next lesson on racial tolerance, Chapter 15 Broad Stereotyping.

    On the midterm, you will be tested on Chapters 12-14.

    Chapter 12: The Art of Victimhood (And Why it’s Not Available to English or American white people)

    Chapter 13: American Disease Express, Don’t Leave Home Without It.

    Chapter 14: Statute of Limitations, Can Neanderthals from Berkeley Still Sue Homo Sapiens From Alabama?

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  89. I forgot to mention the Herero and Namaqua Genocide of 1904. This was how the Europeans treated native peoples. And Germany also had its eye on Hawaii. Germany was annexing territory in the Pacific at that time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_Genocide

    It’s a rough world out there. I mean the real world, not the liberal make-believe world where American annexation is a bad thing.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  90. Hawaiian-ists ! I blame the matriarchy.

    JD (5f0e11)

  91. Bravo, or Brava, cfb. Too bad your point will be totally lost on Levi.

    JD (5f0e11)

  92. JD, you are probably right, he tends to either engage completely or disengage completely when I respond.

    And, thanks for the bravo…my garlic nose is too Roman for a pretty female face.

    (by the way, are Italians technically white people, I get confused because I don’t know if olive is an official color)

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  93. Leviticus #83…
    My point in supporting ZR-III was not the relative dates of French and American Bills of Rights, but on the broader question of a finer country to live in.
    For all of its’ primacy, the French Bill of Rights certainly hasn’t done that well for the citizens of France. Which French Republic was/is the best? Or, is that still to come?

    cf…#91…
    As someone who is one-half Italian, I can say that Italians certainly think of themselves as White, though they still think Siclians are of tainted blood – but that just might be a Roman thing.

    Another Drew (f9dd2c)

  94. The French version of the Bill of Rights didn’t work because throughout the document the “nation” is place ahead of the individual. This, incredibly, in a document that Jefferson helped write.

    The only formal Bill of Rights which preceded the American Revolution was the English one, passed in the aftermath of the Glorious Revolution. And even on that one the luster has faded recently.

    kishnevi (da26af)

  95. So if Hawaii secedes, does that mean all U.S. funding ceases? WIC, food stamps, welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, etc., etc., etc.

    PatAZ (56a0a8)

  96. I forgot to mention Germany’s Herero Genocide of 1904 in what is now Namibia. Germany also had its eye on Hawaii. Germany was acquiring territory in the Pacific at that time.

    It’s a rough world out there. I mean the real world, not the liberal make-believe world where American annexation is a bad thing.

    Amphipolis (e6b868)

  97. Regarding French government –

    Since the execution of Louis XVI in 1793, the French army had been subject to the First Republic, the Directory, the Consulate, the First Empire, the First and Second Restorations, the “Bourgeous Monarchy” of Louis Philippe, the Second Republic, the Second Empire, the Commune, the Third Republic, Petain’s Vichy and DeGaulle’s Free French Committee, the Fourth Republic, and now the Fifth Republic.
    A Savage War of Peace, Alistair Horne p353

    I think that makes sixteen systems of government including the original Bourbon monarchy. And in that time the United States had – the Constitution, ratified in 1787. (OK – plus the Confederate interlude)

    Amphipolis (e6b868)

  98. Ed Wood wrote:

    Always wondered how people would react if one of OUR states got on the independence bandwagon and demanded sovereignty.

    Well, now, some of us did just that, back in 1861, forming that noblest of countries, the Confederate States of America, but nooo! you damned Yankees just wouldn’t leave well enough alone.

    Dana R Pico (c36902)

  99. English, Americans, white people, it doesn’t make any difference

    Wow.

    Collective guilt. Blood taint. Sweeping generalization.

    Oddly, while the Hawaians were overthrowing their monarch, the ancestors of this blue-eyed, blond-haired pale-skinned male were living in poverty in the hills of Kentucky — and some of them had barely escaped being shipped out on the Trail of Tears. But I’m supposed to feel guilty for the removal of the Hawaian king because some people who superficially resembled me were vaguely involved.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  100. Anyone else notice how Levi has abandoned this thread? He’s taken a full-force body slam here, so my guess is he’s chickened out.

    Steverino (6772c8)

  101. Sorry about the duplicates, I thought the first didn’t go in.

    [My fault, Amphipolis. I found several comments in the spam filter and approved them, but I didn’t note it in the comment threads because there were so many. — DRJ]

    Amphipolis (e6b868)

  102. Anyone else notice how Levi has abandoned this thread? He’s taken a full-force body slam here, so my guess is he’s chickened out.

    What do you want me to comment on? I don’t give a shit about the French constitution, sorry.

    I’m waiting for someone to take issue with what I said in #94. Unless you agree?

    Levi (76ef55)

  103. I’m waiting for someone to take issue with what I said in #94.

    kishnevi wrote comment #94.

    Retard.

    Paul (266a05)

  104. I’m waiting for someone to take issue with what I said in #94.

    kishnevi wrote comment #94.

    Levi commits identity theft. Or at least comment theft.

    kishnevi (4fe729)

  105. Are all of you guys really lending credence to Zelsdork’s (implied) claim that the US is the only country in the world with a Constitution and a Bill of Rights? I’m not making any claims as to the merits of the French system of government; I’m just pointing out that they have one (in contrast to what Zelsdork implied).

    Leviticus (f4b6b1)

  106. kishnevi wrote comment #94.

    Retard.

    Well then my post got deleted.

    Levi (76ef55)

  107. What do you want me to comment on?

    I want you to comment on your blatant lie that Americans killed Hawaiians by the thousand through disease. I want you to comment on your stupid assertion that the Brits are the same as the Americans are the same as “white people”. I want you to retract your claim that you haven’t bashed America for anything we haven’t done.

    And then I want you to skitter off, tail between your legs, whimpering and wetting yourself as you leave.

    Steverino (6772c8)

  108. Levi – You could also try some aloe on that chapped ass of yours.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  109. I want you to comment on your blatant lie that Americans killed Hawaiians by the thousand through disease. I want you to comment on your stupid assertion that the Brits are the same as the Americans are the same as “white people”. I want you to retract your claim that you haven’t bashed America for anything we haven’t done.

    And then I want you to skitter off, tail between your legs, whimpering and wetting yourself as you leave.

    Will a hearty fuck you suffice?

    Levi (76ef55)

  110. It would be in keeping with your typical presence. Lots of vitriol and nothing coherent to say. So, yes. You can take the rest of the day off now.

    Pablo (99243e)

  111. Back to “Hawaiian Sovereignty”…
    As to whether or not Hawaii can succeed from the Union…
    Wasn’t that question settled before they even joined the Union?
    Something about “The War of Northern Aggression” (as some are want to call it) as I remember, two guys named Lincoln and Davis, and a cast of millions.
    And, without all of that Fed aid, how would the Socialist Republic of Hawaii actually support itself?

    Another Drew (a28ef4)

  112. Levi – You should be proud. Not every site has mascots. This site has had many idiot moonbat trolls. You have used what few braincells you have to attain the status of current idiot boy moonbat troll of this site.

    Congratulations.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  113. dr…
    always with a nice word.

    Another Drew (a28ef4)

  114. AD – I’m a giver.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  115. I also offered my congratulations.

    His parents should be proud.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  116. Well then my post got deleted.

    Or maybe you never posted it.

    Will a hearty fuck you suffice?

    Wow, good answer, good answer! (clap, cap, clap)

    Retard.

    Paul (266a05)

  117. current idiot boy moonbat troll of this site

    No, no daleyrocks, that should read:

    current retard boy moonbat troll of this site

    in honor of his favorite insult.

    Paul (266a05)

  118. Will a hearty fuck you suffice?

    Only to prove to everyone reading that you are incapable of honest debate, and will not admit you’re wrong despite overwhelming evidence of your error.

    It also proves you’re a liar, since now your claim that you don’t bash America for anything we haven’t done has been shown to be false, and you refuse to retract it. Only a liar would do refuse to retract a false statement.

    Steverino (6772c8)

  119. Oh, we didn’t kill them by the thousands, our diseases did. You think that takes the sting out of having your culture decimated?

    I get it. Legitimate victims are those (non-Europeans) indirectly affected by the non-deliberate actions of others (Europeans – no, Americans – no, we). That should suffice to provide a rationale for every liberal collective guilt trip imaginable.

    And Levi’s alternative is…?

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  120. Only to prove to everyone reading that you are incapable of honest debate, and will not admit you’re wrong despite overwhelming evidence of your error.

    It also proves you’re a liar, since now your claim that you don’t bash America for anything we haven’t done has been shown to be false, and you refuse to retract it. Only a liar would do refuse to retract a false statement.

    I haven’t said anything except that this:

    Is there any group of people left in America that doesn’t feel oppressed?

    is a stupid fucking thing to say about nativist Hawaiians, and that the right’s constant obsession with people crying victim has clearly warped your perspective if you actually believes such a stupid thing.

    And my post was deleted, I saw it right up there, at #94, and now it’s missing. It’s been happening a lot lately. But what I said in it is that Republicans, specifically white Christians, scream ‘I’m the victim!’ more frequently and more loudly than anyone in the country. All this whining about the culture, about Hollywood, about Harry Potter, about video games and rap music and the theory of evolution and MTV and foreigners, swearing, etc…. you’re all a bunch of fucking crybabies.

    Aw, you poor little white Christians have had it so tough, haven’t you? And now you have to suffer the indignity of somebody saying to you, “Happy Hollidays,” on Christmas? Poor babies! Why can’t they respect your magical sky fairies?

    Levi (76ef55)

  121. It’s probably a good thing that your post went bye-bye, Levi. Because that’s pretty stupid. Voicing a complaint does not equate to feeling victimhood. For instance, I can find you annoying and objectionable, but that doesn’t make me your victim.

    After all, I can click that little red X and be done with you. You, OTOH, have to be with you all day every day. I think you’re getting the short end of that stick.

    Pablo (99243e)

  122. For More information see
    http://www.hawaiiankingdom.org/
    About the Illegal U.S. Occupation of Hawaii
    Cheers

    gataonna (9287d6)

  123. the Illegal U.S. Occupation of Hawaii

    I’ll pass. I’m busy coming to grips with Aztlan.

    Pablo (99243e)

  124. Yup… Levi’s back in force. I’m done here for a while again, I guess.

    I would ask others refrain prom posting, period. Perhaps then we can get Levi an EXTENDED vacation…

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  125. Aloha Snackbar Scott

    daleyrocks (906622)

  126. I haven’t said anything except that this:

    Liar. Here are your exact words:

    Post #35

    English, Americans, white people, it doesn’t make any difference.

    Post #28:

    haven’t bashed America for anything we haven’t done.

    Not only are you a foul-mouthed cretin, you’re a bald-faced liar.

    Now, admit you were wrong, like a real man would.

    Steverino (6772c8)

  127. We asked Levi to provide backup for his crazy “we” killed thousands of Hawaiians statement (the only specific thing he has said to justify Hawaiian Victimhood), and he responded with profanity and a string of bigoted red herrings. This is what typically passes for liberal thought.

    My statement that Hawaiians are some of the most fortunate native peoples in the world has gone unchallenged. Incidentally, Daniel Kahikina Akaka is a Native Hawaiian who is a US Senator and is therefore one of the most powerful and influential people in the world. He shapes laws that apply to me here in Pennsylvania. Is he a Victim too?

    Amphipolis (e6b868)

  128. I think that more than a dozen nations became independent in the year Hawaii was granted the privilege of becaming a state. It would be interesting to compare them after 50 years to see who is better off.

    There are millions of real post-colonial victims of independence.

    Amphipolis (e6b868)

  129. Nations formed in 1959….
    Went to the UN webpage to see which member states were inducted in 1959 and/or 1960. 1960 was the big year: Benin, Burkhino Faso, Camaroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Republic of Congo, Ivory Coast, Cyprus, Democratic Republic of Congo, Gabon, Madagascar, Mali, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Somalia, and Togo (I might be wrong, but there was no-one from 1959).

    The one constant in this list (and this would include HI, too) is that economically, they are – if not basket-cases – at least dependent on outside financial help to a large degree. Even the ones such as Nigeria and the Congo’s, that have extensive natural resources, are economically suspect (rich countries, even richer leaders with extensive mountainous European holdings which doesn’t leave much for the masses).

    HI is in this boat, in that, from the ’90 to ’00 Census, they were the only State to show a shrinking economy. If you took away the contributions to the state from the presence of the Dept. of Defense, they’re broke – or worse.

    The fact that the state gov’t is organized along socialist lines certainly doesn’t help matters.

    Another Drew (8018ee)

  130. My post 119 – Levi’s alternative is…?

    That is, Levi’s alternative to exposing Hawaiians to disease two hundred years ago. What should have been done – what would Levi have done with his high ideals? Please enlighten us.

    Bad, evil Europeans (and Americans, Cook had plenty of them with him) they should not have gone exploring in the first place, trying to observe the silly Transit of Venus. It was better before the Renaissance when Europeas were content to remain ignorant. Cook and his companions should not have risked being eaten in their quest for knowledge.

    And what risk did Europeans run exposing themselves to Hawaiians (assuming they understood the risk of spreading disease at all, which I doubt)? Virulent syphilis was unknown before the discovery of America. All diseases did not originate in Europe.

    OK, I’m done now.

    Amphipolis (e6b868)

  131. Not done yet – Drew – most of those nations experienced civil war since then with millions of deaths – the curse of independence.

    The worst European colonial atrocities (one of which was cited by me above) do not compare with what these nations have done to themselves (or each other) since. This is a fact. The example of India alone proves my point.

    Amphipolis (e6b868)

  132. Exactly, I can tell you from my heart that there is not on that list one country I would wish to live in, and few I would care to visit.
    But then, I’ve never been to HI, and long ago told friends I would only go if I could sail there.

    Another Drew (8018ee)

  133. Senator Akaka is a good american.
    No treaty No statehood
    For More information see
    http://www.hawaiiankingdom.org/
    About the Illegal U.S. Occupation of Hawaii
    Cheer

    gataonna (9287d6)

  134. Hawaiians overwhelmingly voted for statehood in the referendum of 1959. I don’t think they wanted a monarchy.

    Amphipolis (e6b868)


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