[Guest post by DRJ]

The San Angelo Standard Times and other media report that Judge Walther ruled the children will not be returned to the ranch and they will be genetically tested:

“7:29 p.m. — Court reconvenes.

The judge thanks all members of the bar for their work and cooperation.

She announces her decision that the children should not return to the ranch.

She says this is the beginning. Hearings will begin June 5, but they will not be en mass. The court orders maternity and paternity testing for each child.

On Monday, a mobile lab at the fairgrounds will test the DNA of all the children and mothers there.

Parents are entitled to an attorney, whether or not they can afford it, she notes.

For now, it’s over.”

In the meantime, “Marleigh Meisner of Texas Child Protective Services said the children will be placed in foster homes pending hearings.”

I’ll add excerpts from the second half of today’s testimony below the fold or, better yet, click on this San Angelo Standard Times link for the complete live-blog.

2:45 p.m. – The psychiatrist leaves the stand, and the prosecution rests.

Attorneys for fathers call their first witness.

He reels off his education, including a doctorate in religious studies concentrating on Mormonism.

There’s nothing in any of the foundational Scripture that gives the proper age for marriage, he says under questioning.

FLDS considers the Bible the word of God, he says.

As part of the Bible, they teach that women should submit to their husbands, the expert says. But, like Catholic women and other women who adhere to various religions, FLDS women have interpreted that in different ways at different times.

And FLDS women can choose when to get married, he said.

Thousands of FLDS members live in the United States, and they don’t all believe the same thing, the expert says.

“The family practices of the FLDS vary from family to family,” he says.

Not all of them are polygamists, either, the expert says.

He has studied all this for 18 years, along with studying Judaism, Catholicism and many different Western religions, he said.

The attorney says: How does the FLDS faith define a household or a family?

They have wives – not necessarily legal wives – in the homes, as well as their children, he replies.

Amazingly, no objections or interruptions have arisen during his testimony.

2:57 p.m. – The FLDS generally expels members who engage in extramarital sex, the religious expert testifies.

In his experience, he says under questioning, parents would not approach a girl balking at marriage by telling her she will go to hell or have to leave the community.

But there could be some spiritual consequences discussed with the female, he says.

“Basically, they’re into matchmaking,” the expert says.

The community will say, “We think it’s a good match,” he says.
It’s a new phenomenon to have girls marrying at a very young age, the expert says, and it probably originated with Warren Jeffs, a now-imprisoned FLDS spiritual leader. Most people would say Jeffs is still the FLDS leader, the expert says.

3:06 p.m. – The attorney for Child Protective Services begins cross-examination of the religious expert.

“If the children are reporting that when they marry is when the prophet says, ‘You marry,’ would that be consistent?” the attorney says.

Among the FLDS, many opinions have been expressed about the right age for a girl to marry, the expert says.

Some church leaders have said 18, and others have said that when a female begins her menstrual cycle, that’s a good time, he says.
They also generally look at the child individually, the expert says. One child might be ready at 16, but a less responsible one “might have to wait until she gets older.”

3:11 p.m. – A child’s attorney asks the religious expert whether he’s saying that differences exist among sect members and their beliefs.

“You cannot treat them all the same. They’re not homogeneous,” the religious expert says.

The 20,000 FLDS members will probably always recognize a single prophet, but how much they adhere to the prophet’s teachings just depends, the expert says.

The attorney asks whether the expert has heard of “lying for the Lord.”

“There are times when they can be deceptive – basically, when they feel their survival is at stake,” the expert says.

The FLDS has been subject to persecution, he says: Law enforcement officers have come in and asked the children, “Who is your mommy, and who is your daddy?” When the children answered, then mommy and daddy went to jail for bigamy.
So, he says, the children are taught not to be forthcoming about who their parents are.

The child’s attorney asks about the bed in the temple, an item mentioned in many news reports.

The bed is there, the expert says, because the FLDS members might fast, and when hundreds of people fast, there might be incidences of fainting.

To his knowledge, he says, no sex has occurred in the temple.

3:21 p.m. – An attorney for parents objects to the line of questioning about Jeffs, noting that, “He’s in jail somewhere.”

It turns out that Jeffs is the father of the child the attorney is representing.

Another child’s attorney asks: Isn’t it true that Mr. Jeffs not only encourages marriage between older men and underage girls, but he also participates in it himself – a 40-year-old who marries underage girls?

It’s not a case of some sort of “leering” yen for underage girls, the expert says. Instead, what probably happens is that Jeffs sees that a girl has reached adulthood as defined by the community, and then he offers the girl the opportunity for marriage.

Does he offer that opportunity to girls as young as 14? the attorney said.

Laughter breaks out.

“I don’t have personal knowledge” of every offer he’s made,” the expert says. Jeffs has recommended younger girls than his predecessors did for marriage, he says.

How young? the attorney asks.

“Thirteen is the youngest he’s recommended,” the expert says.
The FLDS members believe they have a sacred responsibility to help all the children of God come down from their state of “pre-mortality” so that they can have the chance to go to heaven, he says.

“They believe that having children is their sacred calling,” the expert says.

3:33 p.m. – “Most FLDS men have never even seen their wives naked, no matter how long they’ve been married,” the expert offers under questioning from yet another child’s attorney.

They wear religious garments at all times, long-john type garments, he says. They don’t take them off during sex.
The FLDS members also have conservative family values, the expert says.

Why are there more girls than boys at the ranch, another child’s attorney asks.

“Normally, during the teenage years, the boys will begin working outside the community to earn money,” the expert says.

The next child’s attorney says: Are there are other reasons that FLDS boys go outside the community?

The expert doesn’t know.

“Do you know what the phrase, ‘Be sweet’ means, sir?” the attorney says.

It generally means to follow the example of Christ and don’t give in to anger, the expert says.

“Would you say that those girls have any real choice to decline (marriage), or are they pressured so much that they pretty much have to agree?” the attorney says.

In some cases, the reasons for the rejection have led to the girl having to leave the community because it creates too much tension, the expert says. In other cases, that hasn’t happened.

3:40 p.m. – A father’s attorney asks the expert witness on religion: What do you know of a “house of hiding” mentioned in some documents?

The FLDS has been persecuted at times in its 180-year history, the expert says, so it has had to have places for people to go to hide out. But, he says, if authorities were seeking a child molester among the FLDS, then the other members would not be prone to help him.

The judge moves the civil hearing along by calling for questions from the mothers’ attorneys.

“Obviously, we’re not going to get through by 4 o’clock, but I still hope to get through by sundown,” the judge says.

Are FLDS members not living in a setting like at the YFZ Ranch more involved in the outside world? says the first mothers’ attorney to question the expert.

No, generally, they are very insular, the religious expert says. About 60 percent of the sect members are polygamists, he says.
Conceiving, bearing and rearing children is considered the most sacred responsibility for the FLDS, so couples take great care in the rearing of their children, he says.

The next attorney representing attorneys asks whether the FLDS members see any “reward, incentive or blessing” in marrying underage children to adult males.

No, and it doesn’t compromise their theology to avoid underage marriage, the expert says.

If these children are returned to their homes today, are they in any immediate danger of sexual, emotional or physical abuse? another mother’s attorney says .

No, the expert says.

3:42 p.m. – Rumors, fueled by the passage of a black limousine, resurface among crowds outside the courthouse that Oprah is in town. Her rumored location is Miss Hattie’s.

3:54 p.m. – “What’s the significance of bishop’s records?” an attorney says.

They can be records of births, marriages, deaths, ordinations, that sort of thing, the expert answers.

The next question is about “lost boys.”

That’s a term used by the outside world to refer to teen boys expelled from the community – not the FLDS, the expert says. A lot of boys reaching their teenage years begin rebelling against spending all their free time singing hymns, praying and pursuing other spiritual endeavors.

“In all honesty, there aren’t a lot of 16-year-old boys that want to spend all day praying,” he says.

Instead, they might want to watch television or something, the expert said. The FLDS tries to work with the boys to bring them through those issues.

4 p.m. – The judge announces a five-minute break.

4:30 p.m. — The judge returns to the bench, and questioning of the religious expert continues.

An attorney says: At what age does the FLDS begin to teach children about marriage?

“Their whole lives are centered around marriage and the family unit,” the expert says.

The attorney says: Is the Eldorado compound a traditional or nontraditional FLDS sect?

It’s traditional, the expert says, adding, “There’s not a lot about Eldorado that’s peculiar.”

The attorney says: Do you consider the bishop’s records to be an accurate reflection of ages, marriages and legal names?

The expert “really couldn’t answer that.” You’ll have to rely on oral accounts to determine dates of births and parentage, he says. The FLDS members are reluctant to keep written records because of the danger of bigamy charges.

They rely on oral histories, the expert says.

The attorney says: Is a direct descendant or child of Warren Jeffs at greater risk for underage marriage or sexual activity?

No, the expert answers: Because of Jeffs’ present circumstances, he has little influence on his children.

4:52 p.m. — The expert, W. John Walsh, finishes his testimony, and the judge is ready to allow a parent’s attorney to call his client to the stand — an FLDS mother.

But she did not check in for testifying, and the judge leaves the stand so parents’ attorneys can explain documents to their clients that they need to fill out.

An attorney sits beside a petite FLDS woman with flaming red hair and a pink dress in the auditorium, talking quietly with her.

5:01 p.m. — The judge returns and begins laying the ground rules for calling mothers to testify.

5:04 p.m. — The female clients are declining to testify.

“I’m at a loss,” the judge says.

She asks whether any mothers want to testify, and one woman, who says her name is Merilyn Jeffs, comes forward.

The judge tells her to pretend she’s yelling at a child far away when speaking into the microphone.

The woman says she’s 29, and speaks softly but precisely as she answers questions for an attorney.

She says she went to a credible school and held a secretarial job a one point in her life and was paid for it.

She says she has one child, a daughter, 7, named Marva.

She names her husband as Wendell Nielson.

Merilyn says she was never coerced into marriage.

She was not able to accompany her daughter, she says, when her daughter left with the first group taken in the raid on April 3. She met with her daughter that Sunday, but had to leave her this past Monday. She hasn’t seen her since then, she says.

This is the first time that Marva has been separated from her mother, and Merilyn says from what she can tell, it has not been good for her. Merilyn says she would do whatever it takes to be with her daughter — even if it means leaving the ranch.

She says she would not let her daughter marry before age 18. She is the general caretaker of her daughter and is responsible for her.

Merilyn says she would refuse to let her daughter to marry before age 18.

The prosecution then begins questioning, establishing the following:

Merilyn has been at the ranch since 2004. She says she has not instructed her daughter to lie about her name while in CPS custody.

Merilyn has not witnessed any marriages at YFZ since she has been there. When asked whether relatives of hers have married since she has been at the ranch, she pauses to think for a minute before saying, “Yes.”

Some of her sisters have been married, she says.

Merilyn defines her household as her mother’s family.

“How do you know when someone on YFZ is going to get married?” the prosecutor says.

Merilyn pauses and says after the marriage, people come and congratulate them. She says she doesn’t know the age of her sister’s baby, but she estimates she is 2.

Her sister is 19 now, Merilyn says.

Merilyn says her other sister, Pamela, is 18. She remembers congratulating her sister on the marriage, which was more than a year ago. She estimates that sister has one child who is walking now.

If the prophet says her daughter should marry when she is 15, Merilyn says she will have her daughter wait.

“I was married at 20, and that is a good age,” Merilyn says.

5:25 p.m. — A 25-year-old named Lori Jessop begins to testify.

She says she has children, ages 4, 2½, and 11 months. Her dwelling is shared only among her children and her husband, she says.

“What were you told about marriage, and when you should do it?” an attorney says.

Lori answers that it is when a person feels he or she can take on those challenges. She was 18 when she married.

She went to college and trained to be an emergency medical technician. Her husband didn’t want her to take the training, she says, but she did it anyway.

Lori says she eventually opted to stay home with her children.
While working as an EMT, she saw drug and alcohol abuse and violence. She says she has not seen any of those things at the ranch in Eldorado.

“Prior to all this, have you taken your children for medical treatment?” the defense says.

Lori says she has taken her children for medical checkups and dentist visits.

She has been at the ranch since 2005, but not consistently, she says.

Lori says she would leave the ranch in Eldorado and get a job if it meant staying with her children.

The CPS attorney begins questioning.

“Who owns your home?” the prosecution says.

“I don’t know,” she answers.

If asked to move into a multifamily dwelling, Lori says she would have to do as instructed.

“Does it concern you that there are girls who are 15, 16 getting married?” the prosecution says.

“Yes,” she answers.

When asked whether it concerns her if girls those ages are having babies, she said it does, but she does not personally know girls at the ranch who are that age and having babies.

One attorney steps forward and says she represents a child with Lori’s son’s name, but she says Lori is not the mother she interviewed. The children’s attorneys cannot be found because some attorneys have returned home.

Lori says her husband does not have any other wives that she knows of, and she didn’t know of any abuse happening in her family.

6:05 p.m. — Lucille Nielson takes the witness stand and says she will turn 25 next week. She says she has a son who is about to turn 2.

Jim Jessop is the biological father of her child. She says that in the civil context, she is not married to her husband but has a spiritual marriage with him.

She says she was 19 when she entered the spiritual marriage.

Lucille says she lives with her spiritual husband and Sarah Jessop, his legal wife. Another woman named Megan also lives there as a “sister wife” or spiritual wife.

She lists seven children who live with the family.

The oldest child in the home is 9 years old.

“The children of school age go to school,” Lucille says.

Three meals and two snacks are prepared daily for the children. If the children need medical attention, a doctor is called, Lucille says.

“What are your beliefs about marriage?” an attorney asks.

“I believe that a woman should not be married until she is mentally and physically mature and able to take care of a family,” she says.
She says she recognizes the Heavenly Father as her God.

Lucille says her age of marriage — almost 20 — is a good age to marry.

She says her father asked her if she was ready to marry when she was 18, and she said she was not, so her father respected her wishes.

“We raise our children through love,” Lucille says. They have family devotions. They gather garbage off the streets. “It’s very peaceful,” she says of life on the ranch.

The defense asks if she knows of women under 18 who are married at the ranch.

“I know of them,” Lucille says.

She guesses a dozen or so are married under age 18. She says she doesn’t know how many under 16 are married at the ranch.
Lucille says about 100-150 women are married at the ranch — the women who have gone to the coliseum to care for their children.

She testifies that she has lived at the Eldorado ranch since 2005 and has never witnessed a woman being physically abused at the ranch. She has not heard of such abuse or seen women with bruises or cuts.

Lucille says she has not heard of children being physically abused.
“My child is almost two. I have never screamed or yelled at him,” she says.

She has spoken to him sternly, but she says it is “through love.”
“Sometimes we remove a child from a situation to help a situation,” Lucille says, but she describes it as peaceful, not throwing a child in a room and closing the door.

Lucille says she wants to plead with the judge to let her be with her son.

“Are you willing to move with your child away from any negative influences that the state can provide evidence for?” the defense asks.

“Yes,” Lucille says.

An attorney says she tried to identify Lucille’s son, Wendell, but could not find a matching name.

Lucille says she did not provide identification to CPS right away. But she says she did allow CPS to photograph Wendell and do a physical examination of him.

Wendell has not received any immunizations, but has received one medical checkup since his birth, she says.

Lucille’s spiritual husband is 32, and the sister wives are 32 and 23. Lucille is the second wife.

The judge tells the defense attorney that getting Lucille to define abuse is not going to help her make a decision.

6:39 p.m. — The court is taking a short break.

7:29 p.m. — Court reconvenes.

The judge thanks all members of the bar for their work and cooperation.

She announces her decision that the children should not return to the ranch.

She says this is the beginning. Hearings will begin June 5, but they will not be en mass. The court orders maternity and paternity testing for each child.

On Monday, a mobile lab at the fairgrounds will test the DNA of all the children and mothers there.

Parents are entitled to an attorney, whether or not they can afford it, she notes.

For now, it’s over.”