Patterico's Pontifications


Eldorado Update: Mothers Returned to the Compound

Filed under: Civil Liberties,Law — DRJ @ 8:53 pm

[Guest post by DRJ]

While their children remain in State custody, the mothers of children 5 and over have been returned to the Eldorado compound where they answered limited questions from the media:

“A mother at the YFZ Ranch shed tears Monday evening as she shared her experiences with members of the media. The news media was allowed to enter the ranch en masse for the first time to interview the distraught mothers. The women would only say that they miss their children and that the state is abusing them by removing them from their families. Other lines of questioning were not allowed.”

Meanwhile, the San Angelo Standard Times reports that attorneys for the mothers have raised due process and other concerns:

“The concerns, initially expressed by local attorney Theodore A. Hargrove III, were echoed by Rod Parker, a former attorney for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who is serving as a spokesman for FLDS parents, after the informal meeting this morning between 51st District Judge Barbara Walther and nearly three dozen attorneys in the complex child-custody case.

“I don’t see how this can be resolved by Thursday,” when the first custody hearing is scheduled, Parker said. “I’m sure the court appreciates the issues.”

Hargrove read a list of concerns on behalf of attorneys representing the adult mothers housed at Fort Concho.

Among them: The constitutionality of a state proposal that an evidentiary hearing be done en masse, allegations that the women have been tacitly discouraged from visiting with attorneys for fear of being barred from returning to the fort, and persistent problems with as many as 30 young women who have children but whose age – and whether they are adults – is uncertain.

“The adult women’s attorneys don’t feel en masse is the way this should be done,” Hargrove told Walther. “Constitutionally, there are a lot of problems with due process.”

If there were 20-30 underage mothers at the compound, the FLDS parents have problems.


75 Responses to “Eldorado Update: Mothers Returned to the Compound”

  1. It probably doesn’t help that apparently some of them don’t KNOW how old they are– that gal with Lee Roy Jessop had to ask her husband her age– and I *do* find it a bit “handy” that he told her she was 18.

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  2. This whole case just reeks of hysteria and government over-reach. Texas had better put up some hard evidence real soon.

    Brad (f8d6b7)

  3. Polygamy is ugly and destructive. I hope that Texas throws the FLDS people in jail for a long, long time and moves on to other polygamists. Like Muslims.

    Jim Rockford (e09923)

  4. Brad- a sixteen year old who has given birth multiple times– who they currently have in custody– is really, really good evidence of rape.

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  5. Those women are being played like a piccolo at a “Stars and Stripes Forever” marathon.

    Alan Kellogg (57929d)

  6. Foxfier,

    I will believe the statutory rape accusation when the authorities produce the 16 y.o. and her children publicly or in court, but not just from a claim made in a police press release. I’ve seen this kind of public relations game played before and I won’t get conned so easily.

    I remember when the very first claims the ATF publicly made about the 2-28-93 Waco raid were that the Branch Davidians had outgunned the ATF because the Branch Davidians had fired .50 caliber machineguns at the raiders. That claim was of course utter B.S. and was quickly superceeded by another ATF claim about ‘losing the element of surprise'; another cya lie that just took longer to fall apart.

    Brad (f8d6b7)

  7. The teenage boys (about 20) were taken to Boys Ranch outside Amarillo. That there is such an imbalance in numbers of teenage boys and girls is troubling.

    From West Texas 2 (f28dac)

  8. I can’t help but think that separating these children from their mothers is not helpful. Would foster care really be better for them, assuming the men are removed?

    The girls who are mothers are mothers. Last I checked, teen mothers are not routinely separated from their children. I have not heard of the younger children being abused there. But this is just a gut reaction, I really don’t know what is going on.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  9. By the way, in the inner cities it is typical for teen mothers to have several children, often from several men. I have a feeling that these children (even the ones that are mothers) were better cared for and less abused. That in no way makes their situation right or good. I just wonder why a worse situation is tolerated, or ignored.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  10. Oops – these children – meaning the ones in the compound were probably better cared for and less abused.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  11. Due process in child-welfare cases? Since when?

    great unknown (fd3f06)

  12. My grandfather had four wives. He did it the the American way though — he married and divorced them one at a time. That way his kids always knew for sure whose mom he loved best — the one he was married to at the time.

    I bet it’s really confusing for the kids when a father stays married to all his kids’ moms at once. That must be so sad.

    Phil (6d9f2f)

  13. I have had cases with Texas DFPS and have read their “investigations” if you can call them that. As a result, when I see the a CPS representative’s lips moving, I assume that she is lying.

    In the late 1980’s, these people removed some children on the basis of false information. A judge heard the case and issued an order for the agency to return the children immediately. The agency literally snuck themselves to another judge, intentionally withheld information about the previous order and got a new order (without evidence) to hold the children. When they were found out, all hell broke loose. The thing about it is that one of the bureaucrat-lawyers higher up in CPS (he wasn’t directly involved in the actual case at the time)–who is now with a different agency– defended lying to the second judge during a seminar held about 9 months ago. He claimed that the people who lied to the judge “thought that they were doing the right thing” and should be given a break.

    DFPS utilizes smear tactics, innuendo and obfuscation. It is the most tyrannical entity I have ever encountered. It leaves babies with crack-addled teenage whores and focuses on families who assert religious beliefs or want to play an active role in deciding medical treatments for their children.

    The broad brush it has used in this case is appalling. From what I can tell, the only kids possibly at risk in this case might have been the 14 and 15 year old girls, if they were in the process of being engaged to old farts.

    I wonder how much money in grants CPS thinks it might make by adopting out all those healthy white infants.

    Jerri Lynn Ward (bf2d8c)

  14. Bizarre to see people try to defend these polygamists.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  15. Bizarre? Does due process mean anything to you? I guess we should just do away with such trifles as trials, facing one’s accuser and the presumption of innocence!

    Brad (b89379)

  16. SPQR-
    yeah, isn’t it? “Oh, we just think they raped the little girls as a cultural norm, and removed children under six from their families on the founder’s will– perfectly safe to leave others there! And shame on you for not doing what I would have.”

    A missing girl, raped and horrifically beaten, calling on two different days, now missing; from an affidavit, another 16 year old with four kids; a police force scared enough of trying and failing that they had a *spy* in the cult and still waited for a complaint; married women who have to ask their husbands for their age, handy how it was 18. And people still aren’t satisfied?

    Chief among the problems facing the state is how to determine whether 20 girls are adults or minors. State social workers and child advocates trying to represent them are faced with the women and the children purposely giving the wrong names and other misinformation. There are no birth certificates available for these children.

    “The children seem to change their names. The adults change their names. The women pass children around,” said Randol Stout, one of the attorneys who plans to represent some of the children in this case.

    THIS is why I’m not sure of why the women were kept around for so long; isn’t interfering in a police investigation a crime? And now that the feds are here, I seem to recall lying to THEM is a crime…

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  17. Brad- please show where systematic child abuse and interfering in a possible murder case are civil rights.

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  18. “From what I can tell, the only kids possibly at risk in this case might have been the 14 and 15 year old girls, if they were in the process of being engaged to old farts.”

    Jerri Lynn Ward, I almost always find your comments insightful and spot-on. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your statement above but some of these girls already had a baby or in some cases, multiples. Do the math. How can they be mitigated to kids possibly at risk? Obviously they have already had great harm done to them as minors and are living in the consequences of illegal acts committed against them.

    Also, considering the illegal practice of child brides, this would also mean that the baby girls of these minors would be equally endangered.

    Calling child molesters and/or rapists, ‘old farts’ is a mercy that they are not deserving of.

    Dana (b4a26c)

  19. Is there evidence that crimes have been committed? Yes. Should these alleged crimes be investigated, and prosecuted when sufficient evidence is obtained? Absolutly.

    Now, why are some people offended by the tactics used here?

    Imagine that the next time a domestic abuse crime occurs in your neigborhood, the police respond by taking all the children in the neighborhood into child protective services.

    The prosecutor then puts the burden of proof on all parents in your neighborhood to show that they themselves haven’t committed the crime that is being investigated.

    Does that help explain why the procedure here is bothersome to some of us?

    Phil (6d9f2f)

  20. Phil,

    Wanna go inform yourself about the case?
    Just the teensiest bit?
    To realize,
    Why your neighborhood analogy,
    Can only be the product of
    An extremely deranged mind?

    nk (6b7d4f)

  21. Phil- to elaborate on NK’s point:
    This is not a “neighborhood.”

    A more reasonable analogy would be those horrid old movies with the “evil nuns”; all members of the YFZ ranch turned their possessions and control of their children over to the cult leader. Thus, the entire group would be more like a single household. And yes, when there is this kind of abuse going on, it’s normal to take ALL the children from a household.

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  22. Let’s see, because I disapprove of child rape I simply go into town and grab all the children of every mother who might have been raped when under the age of sixteen. I submit that these women and children are now being raped by the state of Texas, and Child Services is an oxymoron if there ever was one. The mothers love their children. The children love their mothers. We decide that this is wrong. We send the kids to foster homes and make sure they never see their real mothers again. Ain’t government grand?

    Howard Veit (cc8b85)

  23. That’s a long way yet from happening, Howard. Calm down.

    nk (6b7d4f)

  24. Where is all the criticism of the “nanny state”? It literal in this case!

    The state, once it has decided that it is “right” is going to use any tactic it can to take all of the children from all of the parents and put them in foster care. The babies will be adopted immediately of course coz there is a red hot market for white babies now.

    This was the experience of a friend a of mine a few years ago who had her children taken away. You absolutely dont want CPS anywhere near your kids.

    My mother in law worked for PPS (Elderly parents) and after hearing her stories you realize that there really does need to be a CPS and PPS.

    She said that in all these cases you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t coz everyone has a different line that is “uncrossable” for returning children (adults) to their care-givers.

    EdWood (c2268a)

  25. i support aggressive prosecution of the adult male polygamists 100%. it’s the young mothers and their children i care about. these mothers are now being treated like criminals themselves, confined, restricted from seeing their kids, having their cellphones taken away. that’s a lot like going to jail.

    considerations of constitutional due process as well as basic liberty and chivalry dictate that the mothers be treated with the utmost courtesy and respect, and that they should be empowered in everything from voluntary counseling and help in finding a job to privacy in their phone calls, not put in concentration camps. concern for witness tampering should be manifested in deterring the tamperers, not re-victimizing their victims.

    everything that has happened so far, starting with the bogus pretextual phone calls, has happened for a reason. the flds has a trust fund, now being administered by a non-flds court-appointed trustee, in the range of 100-150 million dollars. i expect the government to seek reimbursement for every nickel out of that fund, effectively converting it to public money to be spent coincidentally on some of the victims, and primarily for the benefit of government players and the private industries who play with them: judges, lawyers, social workers, psychologists, the ants you get at a picnic if you leave a 100 million dollar papaya unguarded.

    assistant devil's advocate (0be901)

  26. I understand the concern for civil liberties and I am also wary of Child Protective Services and its reputation for overreaching. However, there is a saying that the devil is in the details and I think that applies here.

    Government is not going into neighborhoods and taking babies from teenage mothers. Far from it – the US and the State of Texas give teenage mothers free child care so they can go to school, free food, free medical care, and free counseling so the mothers can work toward careers. In all likelihood, the State of Texas has already provided benefits to these women and children.

    This is about polygamy and underage rape, practices that are illegal in Texas and the US. This sect has a common membership with polygamous sects that engage in forced marriage and underage sex. Sect members in Utah and Arizona have been convicted of child rape or facilitation of child rape. If there are other “neighborhoods” like this in America, they should expect heightened scrutiny from law enforcement and be prepared for similar investigations in the event a complaint is made.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  27. “How can they be mitigated to “kids possibly at risk“? Obviously they have already had great harm done to them as minors and are living in the consequences of illegal acts committed against them.”


    I was referring to part of the legal standard(children were in possible danger) that CPS used to justify the warrant. I guess that you are talking about some of the young mothers who are now being abused by CPS by either being confined with their children in an internment camp or being treated like criminals with threats of arrest if they don’t leave the internment camp without their children.

    I don’t know how old these girls are–or how old they were when they were married. It’s only been 3 years since the law in Texas changed to 16 from 14 as the age that a parent could consent to the marriage of a daughter. I also haven’t seen that any of these girls who were actually at the farm at the time of the raid have filed complaints against any of the men.

    Also, how are the baby girls in any kind of imminent danger? I’ve seen no evidence that they were marrying them off as infants.

    There is no way I’m going to accept one word uttered by CPS to the press as the truth. I don’t see how we will ever reach the truth given the constraints placed by the court on the attorneys for the mothers in this case. As far as I’m concerned, what I see being set up here is a kangaroo court.

    And, if you support CPS in its act of expelling the mothers from the internment camp because of “witness tampering” or “obstruction of justice”, I am much more suspicious of CPS doing the same with those lonely, frightened children. Look at the history of child welfare agencies doing just that during the witchhunts of the 80’s and 90’s. Nothing is more corrupting of justice than the desire to preserve political power. CPS has its ass in a crack because the alleged 16 year old complainant hasn’t been found. It is as dangerous to justice as a rabid dog in a city street is to the populace.

    I think that this cult is appalling, unBiblical and disgusting. I think the same thing about CPS and the man-hating feminists who populate it. In fact, because of the way the latter perverts justice, I consider it to be worse.

    Jerri Lynn Ward (bf2d8c)

  28. Howard, your analogy fails from rather obvious first differences.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  29. Never have analogies been so tortured as in this thread. Sheesh.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  30. SPQR, how exactly are these young children endangered? I agree that investigations into the teenage marriages should go forward. But why take the children, as opposed to the teens?

    That’s what doesn’t make sense — the wholesale removal of ALL children because of the alleged danger to some.

    It reeks of an intent to punish the community, as opposed to investigate the alleged crimes.

    Phil (6d9f2f)

  31. “It’s only been 3 years since the law in Texas changed to 16 from 14 as the age that a parent could consent to the marriage of a daughter.”

    Jerri Lynn, I was referring to the possibility that these girls were married at ages younger than what is legal, against their will, and forced to procreate. By default, a cult would not let them escape if the above was indeed something they did not want to do. I saw the removal of them as protection from possible further abuse at the hands of adults.

    “Also, how are the baby girls in any kind of imminent danger? I’ve seen no evidence that they were marrying them off as infants.”

    I wasn’t inferring that they were marrying them off as infants but that by remaining in that environment where minors are forced into marriage with adults, it would endanger them to the same fate.

    Dana (b4a26c)

  32. Don’t forget that the initial call referred to massive physical abuse– causing broken bones– and the girl STILL hasn’t been found.

    This could very well become a murder trial.

    Given that the cops also found information on how to treat cyanide poisoning… Bells should be going off like noon by Big Ben.

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  33. “Jerri Lynn, I was referring to the possibility that these girls were married at ages younger than what is legal, against their will, and forced to procreate. By default, a cult would not let them escape if the above was indeed something they did not want to do. I saw the removal of them as protection from possible further abuse at the hands of adults.”


    That’s what they think was happening. Perhaps they had probable cause to search for the girl who allegedly called and made the complaint about being beaten and raped by her husband, but where was the evidence or probable cause to support the removal of all of the children in the compound? Just because the government thinks something might be happening doesn’t justify, in my mind, the tactics used here.

    I think that CPS realizes that it screwed up here and is now using hardball tactics which are serving to hurt some of those we believe to have been victimized–the mothers allegedly married off when they were below the legal age. Perhaps they were married off and forced to procreate against their will–so now we hurt them and their children further by ripping them apart? Do you think they don’t love and want their children? What evidence is there that they are unfit mothers that would even justify the hearings scheduled for Thursday?

    Jerri Lynn Ward (bf2d8c)

  34. “What evidence is there that they are unfit mothers that would even justify the hearings scheduled for Thursday?”

    The affidavits from a Texas Ranger that:

    “One girl, younger than 16, has four children and says she is pregnant again.

    Another, interviewed by law enforcement, looks at her husband when asked her age before responding that she is 18.

    The stories continue – seven girls in all whose interviews with state Child Protective Services case workers are summarized in an affidavit unsealed Wednesday in state District Court in Tom Green County.”

    DRJ (a431ca)

  35. SPQR,

    Surely you realize by now that there is no such thing as “tortured analogies” when it comes to anything involving ANY state’s Child Protective Services. There is more than enough evidence (actual and scuttlebutt-based) that CPS is a rather foul agency and deserves the massive loads of distrust it gets from Jerri Lynn Ward and others.

    In fact, when it comes to the FLDS people, CPS is probably going to end up wishing it took the same road their Kansas brethren took when it came to evidence of child abuse by that “pillar of the community” knows as Fred Phelps. Specifically, they took the three-blind-mice approach.

    At some point, we as a society are going to have to be adult enough to admit that not every injustice (and this FLDS bunch is clearly an injustice) needs a remedy, and that sometimes the pursuit of the remedy creates an even greater injustice. Look up the Short Creek Raids for an example of what road not to take.

    Brad S (f4a3ad)

  36. DRJ,

    Those affidavits justify investigating the men who may have committed statutory rape. How do they justify taking the children en masse from their mothers?

    One of the mothers is 32 years old and has 3 sons. What justifies subjecting her and her sons to a custody hearing?

    Jerri Lynn Ward (bf2d8c)

  37. Jerri Lynn,

    Based on what has been reported and is consistent with polygamous sects and aerial views: The women and children live in a dormitory, not separate houses. It’s not as if some of the women were unaware of what was happening with the female children.

    In addition, the affidavits apparently allege that some children don’t know who their mothers are, believe they have more than one mother, or were mothered by many of the women present. (Not to mention most of them seem to be related based on their last names.)

    The authorities allege these and other facts support a pattern of behavior among all the parents – in effect a conspiracy – to groom children to participate in underage and/or forced sex. No matter how you feel about CPS, I don’t think you will deny it has the right to segregate children from adults who might be abusing them until it can determine what happened.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  38. By the way, Jerri Lynn, it has also been reported that polygamous sects routinely eject most of the teenage boys after they reach puberty, so they won’t be a threat to the older men. Does it make you wonder at all why this woman and her boys were allowed to stay?

    DRJ (a431ca)

  39. I also wonder if we’ll hear testimony from one or more of the teenage boys at Thursday’s hearing.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  40. “It’s not as if some of the women were unaware of what was happening with the female children.”

    Are you talking about the marriage of 14 and 15 year old girls to men? Or–are there allegations that the men were coming into the dormitories to molest girls to whom they were not “married”? I’ve seen nothing about the latter.

    I’ve read in the past few days about the teenage boys, but the only source for that I’ve seen is the book written by the woman who has positioned herself as an expert on polygamous groups because she escaped from one. I don’t consider her to be an unbiased, objective source. If the 32 year old woman has teenage boys (I don’t know how old they are), the fact that they remain is certainly evidence that this group did not throw out teenage boys. If there is sufficient evidence that they do, and the boys are underage, the parents should be prosecuted for child abandonment.

    It may be completely true that the men in this particular sect marry underage girls and that both the women and men consider this to be justifiable by their religion. I doubt that the girls are being groomed “for sex”. I think that it is more likely that they were being raised to believe that it is God’s will that girls marry early and have numerous children–go forth and multiply. I somehow doubt that the men were having group orgies in the temple as I believe that their polygamy is based on what they believe to be biblically (or whatever that other book they use is called–I’m having a senior moment) based procreation–not pornography. The highly charged wording I have seen here and other places seems to erroneously conflate the practices of these people with the practices of a skin flick director/pimp who both runs and utilizes a “stable” of teenage runaways–and gets away with it by greasing the palms of the local cops.

    Don’t get me wrong, I think that polygamy is wrong and antithetical to Christianity. These people have a profoundly wrong notion about patriarchy, in my opinion. The thought of a 50 year old man with a 14 year old girl makes want to throw up. (I must interject, at the risk of revealing my age, that when I was 14 and 15, there were several Hispanic girls in my class who married their 25 and 30 year old boyfriends and dropped out of school–so cultural norms differ and change) But, I really believe that the search warrant, the removal of the children, the forced pelvic examinations of children and this so called custody hearing which may or may not give each mother 5 minutes to defend herself, sets a terrible precedent of government overreaching. I think that this power can next be used against homeschooling families and the like. There are plenty of government goons who think that homeschooling is child abuse.

    The father of the homeschooling movement, R.J. Rushdoony, tells in one of his books of sermons about his experience as an expert witness in a case here in Texas (in the 1980’s) regarding the prosecution of a pastor and elders of a fundamentalist church. The church taught the Biblical precept of “spare the rod, spoil the child”, and they were prosecuted on some conspiracy theory regarding child abuse–though there was no evidence or allegation that any of them had beat a child. Rushdoony recounts that the State’s attorney, during his argument, held up the Holy Bible and called it a “manual for child abuse”!

    Examples such as Rushdoony’s experience–and the contempt that some servants of Caesar have for religion– are why I am so adamantly opposed to the government’s actions in El Dorado based on affidavits rife with hearsay and vague suppositions about what this sect does–because other branches commit such acts. So far, I see a bunch of titillating gossip and no established facts. Despite my personal distaste and dislike for the cult involved here, I do not want to cut CPS any legal slack.

    Jerri Lynn Ward (bf2d8c)

  41. DRJ,

    One more thing. As to the children allegedly being confused about the identities of their mothers, do you remember the old hippie and Children of God communes in the 70’s? River Phoenix and his siblings were raised in several. I would expect that in most commune situations women mother all the children. Isn’t it interesting that there wasn’t much in the way of CPS raids on these communes, that I heard about anyway. Perhaps that’s because the hippies (plenty of whom were 14 and 15 year old girls) didn’t intrude on the power of the state by insisting that they were married to numerous people. They just “shacked up” and dropped babies–and they were liberal. The leftwing feminists of CPS would probably relate to them in a way they never could to “patriarchal” religious communities where the people make cheese instead of rolling joints.

    Jerri Lynn Ward (bf2d8c)

  42. Jerri Lynn #40,

    When I said the mothers knew what was going on, I was referring to their knowledge that underage girls were getting pregnant. I also think they knew why and by whom they were getting pregnant.

    I also wonder where the “missing” 6 mothers are: I doubt it, but could they be cooperating witnesses … ?

    DRJ (a431ca)

  43. Jerri Lynn: from the same family as some of those in this compound, come the Lost Boys. (scroll down a bit)

    In the case of the hippies: if one member was a legal adult and one was a minor, it was rape. But without a complaint, the cops can’t do anything.

    That’s why, despite having someone inside the compound, they couldn’t act until there was a cry for help.

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  44. “I think that this power can next be used against homeschooling families and the like. There are plenty of government goons who think that homeschooling is child abuse.”

    Jerri Lynn, I want to strenuously disagree with this as we’re talking adolescents being forced into marriage and motherhood, but as a former homeschooling parent, this unfortunately is a valid point.

    DRJ, #42, of course the mothers knew the underage girls were getting pregnant by old men – most likely the very same tragedy befell them, too.

    Dana (0553d9)

  45. or until they sockpuppeted a cry for help. the state is now treating the mothers en masse as presumptively guilty of something. the teenage boys have also been shipped off to a youth penal farm. back at the ranch, they were told that government is the enemy, and this message is now being reinforced.

    assistant devil's advocate (2c7076)

  46. Foxfier,

    That’s disgusting. But–if you read the article to which DRJ linked, you will see that there were teenage boys living at the farm who have been farmed out by CPS to foster families. It doesn’t seem fair to extrapolate what happened in other communities to what happened in this one with no real proof.

    I have to tell you given that there was a CI in the compound that I am more than a bit suspicious about the “cry for help”. It could be, as you’ve suggested, that something nefarious happened to the girl–but wouldn’t the CI have known something happened to her? On the other hand, is it possible that the CI got a bit impatient?

    If you wish to give the benefit of the doubt to this agency, by all means, do so. I will maintain a healthy and warranted- by experience- skepticism. I cannot tell you how much is bothers me that staunch conservatives give such credence to government agencies that are filled to the brim with “Hags for Hillary” and/or “Oafs for Obama” and that make it their mission in life to destroy families–not on the basis of drug addictions or the like–but on the basis of their misguided notions of “children’s rights”–which actually means state ownership of children.

    Jerri Lynn Ward (bf2d8c)

  47. JLW- they’ve been very careful about not saying exactly WHERE the informant was, but the implication is that the person moved around several of the compounds.

    If there’s a 911 call to a house from a kid, and I get there and there are a dozen kids who have *zero* public records, yet the kid that called 911 is mysteriously missing and several of the other kids are living proof of at least part of the abuse mentioned in the 911 call, I *will* give the benefit of the doubt to the unproven government group as opposed the *proven* child abusers.

    I would be interested in why you think an outlet of an organization would treat their sons differently than the main office of that same organization, 1) it’s the same families and 2) they’re acting in the same manner in all other ways?

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  48. “I would be interested in why you think an outlet of an organization would treat their sons differently than the main office of that same organization, 1) it’s the same families and 2) they’re acting in the same manner in all other ways?”

    I didn’t give an opinion–although I think that the fact that there were teenage boys living there is some evidence that they don’t kick them out at the age of 13. My point is that the government should not have the power to take away children based on assumptions that are not grounded in direct evidence about the specific community in question. To me, the fact that other communities have allegedly kicked out their teenage boys is not proof that this community does the same thing. Would it be fair to say that because one branch of a family includes burglars, all other branches must too? It’s a logical fallacy. Logical fallacies are often used to unfairly smear people. Although I’m not always successful because of my public school education, I try to use critical thinking to separate the propaganda from established facts by noting logical fallacies and the like so that I’m not swept up into lynch mobs and blood libel. In fact, the greater the pile of people I see on folks like these fundamentalist Mormons, the harder I look for the BS.

    Jerri Lynn Ward (bf2d8c)

  49. My initial thought regarding seperating the kids was twofold. One, they want to try and see if they can get any uncoached info out of the kids. And two, they’re worried that the mothers might bolt and disappear with the kids.

    Taltos (4dc0e8)

  50. DRJ,

    Interesting theory you have of group guilt based on rumors and guesswork. Turns out one of your guesses about communal living quarters is dead wrong. CNN had a story last night which showed that each family on the ranch had their own large house.

    As for the claims put forth by Texas DFPS, DFPS also claimed as far back as last week that the mystery caller, 16 y.o. ‘Sarah’, was a real person and was probably in custody. So where is she? And her supposed abusive husband? Turns out he hasn’t been in Texas for years.

    I am very wary and I await further developments and the actual production of evidence before I will make any conclusions about what really happened at the cultists ranch. But I won’t be surprised if the governments case is eventually revealed as a mountain of lies.

    Brad (ad7a66)

  51. That’s interesting, Brad, although a link would be helpful.

    The Eldorado Success has aerial views of the compound that show 4-6 “dormitory-style” residential buildings. Perhaps you and CNN are correct that these are individual family buildings, in which case there were 4-6 very large families living in the compound. That’s also consistent with the Legal Notices posted in this case that show the same last names for most of the parents and children.

    However, I’m still not sure why you think that proves nothing happened at the compound or, if it did, no one knew about it. I’m also perplexed why you call the Texas Ranger’s affidavit rumor and guesswork. Do you have information they don’t?

    DRJ (a431ca)

  52. Re: witness tampering

    Just reason for concern, and by that I mean concern that DFPS will coerce the children into false testimony now that the children are isolated from their parents. It’s happened before.

    In San Diego, the CPS went after a child’s father in the aftermath of a rape even though the child initially claimed a stranger had climbed through her bedroom window. Well CPS took custody of the child and by the time they were through with her she was testifying against her daddy who ended up divorced and in prison. But funny thing is, eventually DNA testing matched the forensic evidence to a neighborhood registered sex-offender whose M.O. matched the original untainted testimony of the victim. Once the real culprit was caught the father’s wrongful conviction lawsuit cost the CPS millions in a settlement.

    Brad (ad7a66)

  53. Okay, then what would it take for you to let CPS intervene in a theoretical case?

    DRJ (a431ca)

  54. re: CNN link

    I saw the story on TV during an Anderson Cooper(?) segement. When the culties invited the media onto the ranch for the first time ever, granting interviews and showing the press around the ranch. I wouldn’t know better than you where to find a link to the transcript.

    The on-scene CNN reporter spent some time detailing the houses, describing them as large well built ‘log-cabins’ for single families. Well appointed interiors, though the reporter noted a lack of televisions.

    Brad (ad7a66)

  55. JLW-
    I didn’t give an opinion–although I think that the fact that there were teenage boys living there is some evidence that they don’t kick them out at the age of 13.

    400+ children. Two dozen boys. I’m going to guess they didn’t have sex-selection abortions, and outsiders like the caller can’t be THAT numerous.

    Brad- when you have three compounds founded by the same criminal loon, and the known compound of the third has strong evidence of the same crimes as the others, and a report comes in for yet ANOTHER crime that’s known in the others, it’s logical to believe the report.

    By they way, they said that she MIGHT be in custody but too scared to come forward. That still allows for her to be 1) dead, 2) missing, 3) too scared to come forward, 4) one of the women who didn’t go back to the cult, or– your insistant favorite– made up as a way to get at these child rapists.

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  56. Re: San Diego CPS story link

    I remember this case because it was a local story. Click on the related story of Dale Akiki too. The Akiki case was a model of the crazy ‘satanic ritual child abuse’ prosecutions which destroyed so many families around the nation before the national witch-hunt finally burned itself out.

    Brad (ad7a66)

  57. I’ll ask again, Brad: What would it take for you to let CPS intervene in a theoretical case? Would you prohibit Child Protective Services from intervening unless abuse is public or on tape?

    DRJ (a431ca)

  58. Debbie Schlussel points out that old men taking multiple under-aged “wives” is a key feature of another religion (a well known “Religion of Peace”). Somehow, THAT gets tolerated.

    I recall all those leaks about that awful Richard Jewell, who planted that bomb at the Olympics. (OOPS!)

    I also recall the original affidavit for the Waco fiasco was a bit (well, a LOT) fabricated. (

    I also recall all the cases of child psychologists who managed to get kids at a daycare center to testify they had been victim to all kinds of weird and impossible stuff.

    I also KNOW that when the press has reported on events of which I have direct knowledge, they SCREWED IT UP.

    I don’t like polygamists, but it’s like the KKK marching. We have to give them all the benefits of rights, protections, and due process. If we allow those to be taken from them, then we have let them take them from us.

    Hey, I’m a “gun nut,” so I might be next on the government’s target list!

    Ranten N. Raven (240170)

  59. Foxfier, why don’t you try googling alica wade or dale akiki for yourself then? I don’t have to because I lived in San Diego when these stories happened and I followed the developments in the local newspaper. It’s all too horribly real.

    And a good lesson as to why you should give people a presumtion of innocence and a chance to defend themselves whenever the state sees fit to level fantastic accusations.

    Brad (ad7a66)

  60. Ranten, well that is a lot of information that has no relation to current events.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  61. Re: CPS

    DRJ, I’m not saying that the DFPS has no legitimate role to play. I’m only saying that people should maintain a healthy dose of skepticism and not rush to judgement.

    Brad (ad7a66)

  62. I agree with that.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  63. Ranten N. Raven –
    Get us a complaint of physical abuse and rape from an underaged Muslim gal and WATCH Texas take them out!

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  64. Brad –
    1) Provide your own bloody evidence.
    2) Spell the dang names right; her name is Alicia Wade.
    3) Find the shift key; it will make people take you more seriously.
    4) Both are from the wrong state.
    5) Your stories are over a decade old.
    6) They were out-of-the-blue accusations, rather than the continuation of prior “religious” behavior.

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  65. My, aren’t you full of yourself. I guess that’s why you are immune to the lesson. What a pity.

    Brad (ad7a66)

  66. Ah, ad homen. How I’ve missed you, oh evidence of no valid argument.

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  67. I think it’s kinda funny that one of the justifications for taking and keeping the young kids away from their parents is that “some of them couldn’t even say who their parents were.”

    Think about what’s going to happen to these kids if CPS does what it wants to do. They’re all in for the marvelous experience of being raised by the government and/or foster homes until they reach the age of majority, and then living their adult lives with little or no connection to any family, be it nuclear or extended — since their family ties were erased by the government.

    If you’re bothered by the fact that they aren’t sure who their parents are now, just wait until the government gets through with them.

    While I’m not at all excited about the idea of kids being raised in the isolated cult-like setting we’re learning about here, I seriously am not any more optimistic for a kid being raised by the government. Have you seen how some of these kids turn out after ten or fifteen years of being passed from foster home to institution to foster home?

    Phil (0ef625)

  68. Phil– it’s not the isolation or the cult-like part that bugs us, it’s the psychotic, systematic child abuse.

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  69. Amazing how the “libertarians” go all nanny state when the cops get involved…… and the “libs” get all full on libertarian????

    EdWood (18774c)

  70. EdWood –
    *shrug* I’m a republican.

    Folks have rights.

    That means that little girls have a right not to be beaten and raped, and little boys have a right not to be abandoned.

    The adults have rights, too, but they do NOT outweigh the rights of the kids– and if the adults in ANYWAY violated the basic, human rights of these kids not to be abused, I’m all for shooting the perverted SOBS.

    That would be why I’m not a very good Catholic.

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  71. SPQR (#61) – It’s all relevant! All that you think you know about this case may be wrong. Govt does at times cross the line. I want to see these people get a fair court, not a kangaroo court.

    Foxfier (#64) As for Texas, we just have murder to deal with (See Michelle Malkin for details). If these nutcases were members of The Religion of Peace, I doubt the news would emphasize their religion of every third sentence. The atheists in the media gets to tar all Christians with this brush, ad they are havin a ball.

    Ranten N. Raven (240170)

  72. #45 — Boys Ranch is NOT a penal farm. It’s a privately-run charitable home whose former residents include a congressman and local business owners.

    Local reports are that 27 teenage boys were brought there. Out of 400+ children. Any over/under on whether there are more than 27 teenage girls?

    From West Texas 2 (f28dac)

  73. Ranten N. Raven – and when they catch him, he’ll fry; it’s not enough, but it’s the best we can do.
    Notice that there wasn’t a call to the police before they were dead?

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  74. EdWood, I agree it is amazing how “libertarian” the nanny-state liberals can get, so long as the liberty in question is the liberty to do something bad to someone else instead of oneself. Amazing indeed.

    Xrlq (b71926)

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