Patterico's Pontifications

4/7/2008

Hillary Clinton & Michelle Obama see Victims

Filed under: 2008 Election — DRJ @ 2:32 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

Carol Platt Liebau notices that Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama apparently believe they live in a nation of victims. First, Michelle Obama’s radical view that her husband is a victim:

“Campaigning with Teresa Heinz Kerry last week, Michelle Obama had this to say about her husband’s pursuit of the nomination: “[I]n this ever-shifting, moving bar, Barack Obama will always be the underdog. No matter how much money he raises, no matter how many wins he pulls together, no matter how many delegates he accumulates; he is still the underdog. It’s the way it works.”

That’s the latest bon mot from a woman who has expressed pride in her country for the first time in her adult life. In Mrs. Obama’s view, her husband is unjustly condemned to perpetual underdog status – despite his clear lead in fundraising, in pledged and unpledged delegates, in the popular vote, and in high-profile endorsements.”

Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton cynically believes everyday Americans are victims:

“Hillary Clinton’s vision of America is no more inspiring. Last week, she repeated again the heartrending story of Trina Bachtell – a young woman who lost her baby and died herself simply because she couldn’t afford the $100 fee a heartless hospital supposedly demanded in order to treat her. Not too surprisingly, it turns out that the story wasn’t true – but the very fact that Hillary deemed it plausible enough to repeat is revealing. Her view of America and its circumstances is remarkably dreary, considering that she and her husband have risen from the middle class to enjoy stratospheric influence and prominence, along with an income that puts them in the ranks of the super-rich – $109 million just over the last eight years.”

Liebau’s conclusion:

“It must be demoralizing to live in the world these two Ivy-League-educated lawyers seem to occupy, where innocent citizens are eternally victimized by forces beyond their control – from the evil healthcare system to the presumably racist political and social structure. It will be an interesting insight into the nation’s psyche to learn how many voters ultimately subscribe to their pessimism about this country, its people and its potential.

But despite their similarities in tone, Mrs. Clinton’s and Mrs. Obama’s remarks seem to spring from different sources. Hillary Clinton’s false assertions about Trina Bachtell signal a hardened cynicism, where no “misstatement” is too shameless to employ in the almighty effort to win political power. Michelle Obama’s comments reflect a latent radicalism, a pervasive and seemingly immutable conviction about the inherent unfairness of the American people.

Taken together, the most recent Democrat First Lady and the woman most likely to be the next one present unappealing alternatives. Would voters prefer for America to be represented by a radical, who sincerely and deeply doubts the goodness of its people – or by a cynic, who’s willing to say anything as part of a scorched-earth strategy to lead it?

Hillary Clinton’s message is that average Americans are helpless in the face of modern society. Michelle Obama tells Americans that even her privileged husband, who has been educated at America’s finest institutions and is leading his Party’s Presidential primary, is an underdog.

Thus, while both Clinton’s and Obama’s messages seem caring and compassionate, I think Liebau is right that neither one offers an appealing or positive message. More important, I think only people who see themselves as victims will respond to this message.

— DRJ

58 Responses to “Hillary Clinton & Michelle Obama see Victims”

  1. Hillary Clinton’s message is that average Americans are helpless to stand up to modern medicine.
    She’s right about that. Due to Government regulation, average Americans are helpless to challenge the medical status quo.

    As for Michelle – “[I]n this ever-shifting, moving bar, Barack Obama will always be the underdog.”
    Funny she mentions the bar. If you really want to make money as a lawyer, you need to progress to politics, where (as evidenced by the Clintons)nobody can accurately gauge your hourly fee. “See, we only make 1 million per year and they make 12 times that much – that’s why we’re the underdogs!” Ahh, progressives. Kind of like the progressive jackpots at Cesars’.

    The Government run Medical and Legal systems represent two closed loops that increasingly fail to serve the public need to which they pledge their duty. Unfortunately, Both BO and HC think the answer to these problems is more governmental influence, and less power in the hands of the people.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  2. I don’t agree with you about medicine, Apogee. Americans live longer, more vigorous lives than ever before. When I grew up, heart attacks and cancer diagnoses were death sentences. Now all but the most extreme cases are treatable and some are curable. Medicine gives life to premature babies that was barely imaginable 10-20 years ago. Finally, most infectious diseases (including AIDS) are treatable with cures on the horizon. And unlike in most countries, everyone in America has access to medical treatment for these diseases.

    What’s frustrating about medicine is its inefficiency and that’s largely because we tried to remedy inefficiencies with governmental regulations instead of market-based solutions. I also think patients/consumers are frustrated because they have been willingly taught that health care providers are primarily there to give them prescriptions, when the real product should be information.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  3. DRJ – I didn’t mean that there was no progress in the ability of Health Care Pros to not only cure but prevent illness. On the contrary, I concur that America’s health care is the best in the world. In the Los Angeles area, however, there has been a sharp decrease in providers due to non-marketplace inefficiency.

    We’re in very close agreement to the cause of this inefficiency in medicine. I would add that the fee and insurance payment system seems to be completely devoid of any link to reality.

    My point is that medicine, in it’s current maze-like regulatory and fee structured state, presents a monolithic and complicated barrier to anyone attempting to improve it, including the professionals in the system itself who work so hard at raising the quality of our health and bettering our lives. When ER’s and hospitals close, as has happened locally, it is almost impossible for the average person to effect change.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  4. And as for information, you and I are communicating on the single greatest source of information that has ever existed in the world. The question is how to effectively sort through all that info, and that’s not Medicine, that’s education.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  5. When it comes to First Spouses, I think we could stand to have a Trophy Wife, considering all of the alternatives.

    Another Drew (f9dd2c)

  6. Preferably 6″ tall, gold plated pewter.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  7. In Mrs. Obama’s view, her husband is unjustly condemned to perpetual underdog status – despite his clear lead in fundraising, in pledged and unpledged delegates, in the popular vote, and in high-profile endorsements.”

    I quibble, but per the Times account of the Obama accounting, Hillary still leads in announced superdelegates.

    Otherwise, yes, both candidates seem to be hooked on Bob Shrum and the lefty blogs – powerful forces are out to quash the little guy. Very dark.

    Tom Maguire (b338c4)

  8. Quibbling is allowed and I’ll concede that Obama is subject to the whims of the superdelegates – but that makes him the victim of his own Party’s creation.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  9. They are both liars. Hill for different reasons than Michele but liars just the same. B. Hussein is an underdog because he has no experience that would qualify him for the job of President of the United States. It is not because of some racial BS. He just does not have the resume. Hillary lies because she is a Clinton and it comes natural. But then, all lefties are liars.

    Zelsdorf Ragshaft III (e18128)

  10. I hate doctors. A doctor killed George Washington.

    nk (764292)

  11. Of course this behavior has been examined in great detail. Michele and Hillary are merely exhibiting the nesting habits of the European Cuckoo.

    This particular breed drops off their egg in the built by the hard labor of another pair of birds. The hatchling Cuckoo first knocks all the actual offspring out of the nest onto the ground and then peeps endlessly, exhausting the now “responsible” pair…who need to feed the oversized “dependent”.

    Michele and Hillary can have million dollar homes and seven figure incomes…but the taking the nest of others and forcing the rest of the flock to exhaust themselves to feed the “helpless” …is part of the scheme.

    Only, we aren’t feeding one little baby bird…we are feeding Audrey II from Little Shop of Horrors.

    It is NEVER enough. They want blood. And lots of it.

    Trust fund nest egg robbers, are the worst breed. Once they have “theirs” all tucked away…hide your wallets and watches. They become Socialist Warblers. The song is “I’m not proud, I’m not proud”…and usually frequents the coastal areas.

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  12. Apogee,

    Law and medicine are fields in which most people need experts to guide them. Where both professions have gone wrong (in my humble opinion) is thinking that being an expert entitles you to make decisions for your clients/patients. It doesn’t. The point is for both the expert and the consumer to gather information from many sources, and for the expert to guide the consumer through the maze.

    In the 1970s, lawyers and doctors changed the way they practiced and became time-intensive. They either billed by the hour or spent mere minutes with the consumer. Instead of educating the consumer about the intricacies of their disease or problem, they prescribed or dictated the answer. People stopped being partners with their doctors and lawyers and became docile receivers.

    I’m not surprised there was a corresponding increase in malpractice cases after that, even though I don’t think lawyers and doctors were much worse and they were probably better providers than their ancestors. Instead of empowering people to make their own decisions, lawyers and doctors had become omnipotent. Regardless of the outcome, people want to be empowered, not useless appendages.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  13. cfbleachers:

    “Once they have “theirs” all tucked away…hide your wallets and watches. They become Socialist Warblers.”

    I enjoyed that and it’s especially good because it’s true. But, seriously, why do you think that happens?

    DRJ (a431ca)

  14. DRJ

    I think that it happens because in the utopian socialist mindset, everyone and nobody is responsible. In a mindset where the individual is the ultimate and where the community is in service to the individual (instead of the other way around)…it inflicts the hatchling with an entitlement to be fed…and fed…and fed.

    The community must exhaust itself and its resources and any bird, from any other land mass can come and be a “squatter” in the nest…and once they are in the nest…the community must exhaust itself feeding the squatter.

    That’s because there is no bond in the nest building stage, there is no bond in the nestling or hatchling, there is only the demand to be fed.

    As for why this happened particularly to Sen. Obama…and how he was left in someone else’s nest…the following may be helpful.
    http://gregransom.com/prestopundit/2008/04/gregs-guide-to-barack-obamas-d.html

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  15. The old formula,
    Socialism = Handouts
    Handouts = Dependancy
    Dependency = Control
    but,
    Autonomy = Self Reliance
    Self Reliance = Pride
    Pride = Resist Handouts
    Resist Handouts = No Socialism

    The new formula,
    New Socialism = Victim
    Victim = Compensation
    Compensation = Handouts
    Handouts = Dependency
    Dependency = Control

    jpm100 (b48b29)

  16. Excellent link, cfbleachers. I can’t wait for the next installment.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  17. the bad candidates we have now are the inevitable result of a serious organic flaw in our system, created in 1787 and very difficult to correct. the parliamentary system which exists in most of the other significant democracies is superior to our quadrennial “american political idol”. over there, seasoned legislators select the head of the majority party for their pm, and they can turn on a dime, dumping him for her in a single day, an attribute that i believe is beneficial in our competitive earthcage. over here, we made matters worse when all the states passed laws to jump ahead of other states in the primaries, leading to premature commitments and an unbearably long season of fundraising and negative advocacy.

    we deserve these idiots. they are a product of our system and by extension, us. these are our id monsters let loose in our electoral space. the only two ways out i can see are 1) dissolution into 50 separate nations, or 2) a constitutional convention to eliminate this flaw. the problem with 2) is that it puts everything else into play. many of the fools you see around you would happily dispense with the bill of rights.

    assistant devil's advocate (b45960)

  18. I dunno, ADA; I find our system, where our President may be of a different party than the majority in Congress (and, for much of the 20th Century, it HAS been that way) more answerable to the whole of the people, than is a parliamentary “vote of confidence” system. If your head of state holds power on the whim of the loudest Parliamentarians, it seems to me that the “echo chamber” effect (so bemoaned by our pundits) would have a larger presence than is present in our current system.

    That said, I like the idea of the party-out-of-power creating a Shadow Cabinet to present its side of all issues – if for no other reason, for the amusement value of seeing what mental midgets the Democrats would offer as their surrogate Attorney General, or Secretary of State. That way we’d better see how they stand on certain issues … which probably explains why it isn’t done in this country.

    John Barrett Jr. (241ec0)

  19. “[I]n this ever-shifting, moving bar, Barack Obama will always be the underdog. No matter how much money he raises, no matter how many wins he pulls together, no matter how many delegates he accumulates; he is still the underdog. It’s the way it works.”

    I would like to ask Michelle Obama why she has such a low opinion and expectation of her husband? What has blinded her to the immense success he has already had in his life? And who is ‘unjustly condemning’ him, and precisely how have ‘they’ done this?

    It appears she has artfully and conviniently constructed a built-in excuse of blame if and/or when he loses the election as simply won’t be because he wasn’t the most qualified in they eyes of the voter.

    Dana (799f52)

  20. Sometimes I wonder if victimology (and socialism, for that matter) are popular because they excuse us from having to really try. If you don’t really try, you don’t really fail.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  21. Hillary wins the lightning round. It’s pretty bad using false stats, but remember… it’s a talking point designed for the people. I think jpm100 has Hillary’s formula down pat.

    Michelle Obama has a huge chip on her shoulder. She is the worst public figure to come along in quite some time.

    Vermont Neighbor (e7ed47)

  22. DRJ #20 – I was going to write out a lengthy answer, but it’s getting late, and you’d probably just be hatin’ on me anyway.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  23. DRJ – Somewhat more seriously now (except for my having just eaten a giant ribeye and 4 beers at a barbeque). If you thought I was addlepated before, just you wait.

    As to my somewhat OT assertion regarding the Medical and Legal professions, I would add to your #12 that the fields have become something more than just omnipotent, with the consumer as a useless appendage.

    It seems to me that the consumer has ceased to be a consumer and is now an income source. I generalize, of course, as not all lawyers are “chillin’ and billin'” and not all physicians just want to “write you a couple of prescriptions”. There has been, I feel, in the stated role of the expert, movement away from the guidance of the consumer and towards the domination of the consumer. This is not solely due to the excesses of the professions practitioners, but to what I asserted earlier – a grouping of government bureaucrats, related industries and professional associations into self-regulating and self-protecting components. These components, to me, seem to be greatly limited in the accountability department, and function not like the checks and balances as they were originally organized, but rather as legs of a tripod that support the assurance of great profit.

    Perhaps I’m the one being cynical, but I have always believed in absolute corruption of unchecked power.

    As for your #20 (really this time). Spot on, if perhaps a little forgiving. That’s the sales angle, the result is more Harrison Bergeron.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  24. It must be tough to be Michelle Obama. The mean white people wouldn’t let her husband go to any good schools like Columbia University, or Harvard. The those same evil white people wouldn’t let her husband run for any public office such as a state senator. Then those same evil white people make them live in a hovel by holding down their wages to where they have a hard time even sending their kids to camp, much less paying off their college loans. With all the bad things that have happened to her and Barack I can see why she is angry. I would be too if I were treated that way. Jeez, what a loser.

    Fritz (08ef61)

  25. Yes, just look at how well the parliamentary system has done in Great Briton, France, Germany, et al. Oh, wait…

    The Framers were quite familiar with the parliamentary system, and rejected it. They considered it too prone to factionalism.

    You want a perfect voting system. Tough, there is no such thing. There can be no such thing, because the criteria are in conflict.

    LarryD (feb78b)

  26. the bad candidates we have now are the inevitable result of a serious organic flaw in our system, created in 1787 and very difficult to correct

    It doesn’t go back quite that far. I’d say the mess started with popular election of the President. Even so, when the candidates were chosen by the parties, rather than voters at large, the process was better.

    No, I would place the blame at this country sliding away from representative government and toward direct democracy. Primaries have become beauty contests.

    Steverino (e00589)

  27. The problems with post-modern elections, is post-modern candidates.

    The very qualities that it takes to run successfully for highly prized and highly visible office, are the antithesis of what it takes to lead from those lofty perches.

    Narcissism, self-absorption, pandering to fringe elements, principles of convenience, elevation of party affiliation over national interests, soundbite sloganeering, rhetoric over reason, …you simply cannot run as a Democrat unless you are a follower instead of a leader.

    The “best” that the Democrats can field, is a political windsock, who leads by plebiscite and watches the polls daily. Otherwise, their “continental drift” toward Euro-Socialism, their 60 year “footsie” with leftist (communism, socialism, maoism)ideals, leaves us with an anti-Americanism and self-loathing leadership…not “proud” to be American, not proud to wear an American flag on their lapel, not proud to say the pledge of allegiance, not proud to HAVE an allegiance to the country…but rather…wanting us to be more “liked” by being more “like them”.

    The Republicans have similar, but not identical issues to contend with. The Republicans have the additional hurdle of confronting a rigged game from the outset. The MetaStasisMedia and all of its various tentacles will bastardize the truth, create fictions out of whole cloth, doctor photographs and essentially act as a foreign enemy agent, spilling propaganda across the political landscape.

    The “straw polls” are reflective of “strawmen” who are running, not any real reflection of an informed populace. The populace is overwhelmingly misinformed. Or perhaps more accurately, disinformed.

    The disease of the MetaStasisMedia renders EVERY election of note…a fraud. It is garbage in-garbage out when it comes to a vote tally, because the issues to be decided are corrupted by intentional disinformation, grossly deformed by the will of an unprincipled few leftists who have stolen the truth.

    The Republicans have virtually ceased attempting to get the message out. It’s a battle they simply don’t know how to wage. The blogosphere, talk radio and Fox give them a vehicle, but they are weak and clumsy at using it.

    The combination of running “show horses” instead of thoroughbreds…and our diseased information stream…leads us to make bad choices about weak candidates when selecting representation to govern this republic of ours.

    Unless and until we change those two elements of the political dynamic, we will extract from the process what we have allowed to infect the process.

    We must demand that our information stream be debrided of its festering rot and be taken back and treated as the public trust that it should be. We then must ask that the two parties begin to seek out and elevate the best and the brightest…or start over anew.

    Finally, we should call the question on Socialism. This creeping continental drift leftward, with its code words and sub rosa intent can play out as a broad farce no longer. We know what they are up to…let’s call the question.

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  28. Just curious, why aren’t there ever any threads about McCain’s wife, a privileged crackhead who stole medicine from kids? That seems like worthy fodder for absolutely meaningless gossip dressed up as relevant political discussion, why no threads about her?

    Levi (76ef55)

  29. Levi, if you don’t like the posts here, go start your own frigging blog. Then you can write about any topic that suits your fancy. But don’t come here and complain about the topic selection.

    Steverino (e00589)

  30. The Republicans have similar, but not identical issues to contend with. The Republicans have the additional hurdle of confronting a rigged game from the outset. The MetaStasisMedia and all of its various tentacles will bastardize the truth, create fictions out of whole cloth, doctor photographs and essentially act as a foreign enemy agent, spilling propaganda across the political landscape.

    Get real, there’s no liberal bias in the media. There can’t be, with everything the media has let George Bush get away with. Why just last week, government files were released that showed a high level former DoJ official arguing that the President has the legal authority to crush a child’s testicles if he ‘thinks he needs to do that.’ If the media was so biased against George Bush, especially with all the other stuff that’s out there about this administration and torture and breaking the law, wouldn’t that be front page news, leading off every talk show?

    Instead, the topic du jour is whether or not Obama is a faggy bowler. The only reason the Wright story got any coverage was because Rush Limbaugh made it so, there’s no equivalent apparatus on the left that can generate that kind of coverage. The media ate out of Bush’s hands for the first part of his administration, that’s what brought us the Iraq war and the associated misinformation all Americans have about it, and now they’re totally indifferent to him, the lamest of lame duck Presidents, moved on to focus on the personality traits of the Democratic nominees, you know, real hard reporting.

    Liberal media bias is a myth you all use to reassure yourselves that you’ve stumbled upon some secret truth. Like everyone buys the bullshit except you, because you’re just too darn clever. The media must be biased, obviously! The Iraq war can’t be going poorly, global warming can’t be real, and George Bush can’t be an idiot, it’s all some big lie! Good thing we’re all so smart!

    Yeah right. You’re kidding yourselves. Typical.

    Levi (76ef55)

  31. Levi

    If you even suggest that CNN, Reuters, AP, CBS, NBC, ABC, NYTimes, Newsweek, Time, LATimes, Washington Post, Seattle Times, Hollywood…etc. etc., etc. are not biased toward the left…you are delusional, out of touch with reality.

    I can only assume that you instead, are disingenuous and incapable of granting even the most obvious “given” and debate from a point of “blind bliss”…where ignorance of facts is a necessity and denial of truth is prerequisite.

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  32. Levi, if you don’t like the posts here, go start your own frigging blog. Then you can write about any topic that suits your fancy. But don’t come here and complain about the topic selection.

    I do like the posts here, just wondering where the ones about Mrs. McCain’s are. Does anyone have an opinion of her? She’s a crackhead and a thief, and has complained that she’ll always be fighting her addiction. What a wimpy thing to say! She sounds like a victim, doesn’t she? I also heard she offered to sleep with some guy that she worked with to cover up her addiction-fueled anti-child crime, that doesn’t get you people going?

    Let’s not forget that John McCain left his wife after a disfiguring car accident to marry this crackhead that steals from kids. Doesn’t that say something about him? Sounds to me like John McCain hates ugly people and is okay with stealing medicine from sick kids as long as he’s getting laid. Shouldn’t we all be demanding that McCain distance himself from his crackhead, medicine-stealing wife?

    Levi (76ef55)

  33. Levi, if you think your schtick is amusing, you are indeed delusional.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  34. If you even suggest that CNN, Reuters, AP, CBS, NBC, ABC, NYTimes, Newsweek, Time, LATimes, Washington Post, Seattle Times, Hollywood…etc. etc., etc. are not biased toward the left…you are delusional, out of touch with reality.

    I can only assume that you instead, are disingenuous and incapable of granting even the most obvious “given” and debate from a point of “blind bliss”…where ignorance of facts is a necessity and denial of truth is prerequisite.

    How are they biased? They’re being unfair to George Bush, and not hard enough on Democrats? How are they being unfair to George Bush? Why does some bullshit little story like this Rev. Wright nonsense get wall-to-wall coverage, and John Yoo can talk about the President crushing some kid’s testicles if he ‘thinks he needs to’ and nobody’s got anything to say? If there’s such a liberal media bias, wouldn’t the Wright story be suppressed and the Yoo story be trumpeted up? This big conspiracy you’re insisting exists just doesn’t seem to have any evidence to support it.

    Levi (76ef55)

  35. Levi, why do you feel the need to constantly make up stuff? Why is it that lies are so fundamental to your arguments?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  36. What am I making up?

    Levi (76ef55)

  37. I do like the posts here, just wondering where the ones about Mrs. McCain’s are.

    And another point sails clear over your head. We’re going to have to call you “goalpost” soon.

    If you don’t like the selection of topics here, by all means, go whine on your own bandwidth.

    Steverino (e00589)

  38. Levi, you are making up just about everything you write. You are making up the contents of Yoo’s memo and you are making up the claim that Yoo’s memo has not been the subject of news media coverage. Yoo’s memo was discussed ad nauseum in past years.

    You are just continually lying. Why? What is it about yourself that drives you to do this?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  39. What am I making up about the contents of Yoo’s memo? Am I reading it wrong? Because it sounds to me like he’s saying the President is bound by no law that prevents him from crushing kids’ balls. Isn’t he effectively arguing that the President can’t do anything he wants as long as he feels it’s justified? Is that justice? Is Yoo someone you’d want working in the DoJ giving advice to the President?

    This attitude of being above the law has expressed itself over and over again with this administration. Remember when Cheney actually tried to argue that he was a fourth branch of government? They have no respect for the law, separation of powers, or limited government. Even if these things received any coverage from the media, you could hardly call investigating whether or not the President is repeatedly breaking the law ‘bias.’ That would be a happy sign that we have an effective, responsible media, if anything. But coverage of those types of stories is dwarfed by bullshit manufactured by Republicans as distractions, hence Rev. Wright.

    Levi (76ef55)

  40. Levi

    I’m sorry, but when leftists play this game of “they aren’t leftist enough!”, I bow out. It’s beneath sophisticated debate of serious issues, it’s beneath exploration of solutions to serious problems…it’s beneath contempt, really.

    As a law professor once said to our constitutional law class, after three students called upon were obviously unprepared…”I won’t fill empty vessels”.

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  41. Yes, Levi, you are making that up. As you are making up Cheney’s claim, Cheney never claimed to be a fourth branch of government. That’s just more fiction on your part.

    But the more interesting question is what does all this fiction on your part do for you? What need do you have that is met by lying?

    What is it about your psyche that you think it is OK to just make up stuff?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  42. What am I making up?

    Well, this, for instance:

    John Yoo can talk about the President crushing some kid’s testicles if he ‘thinks he needs to’ and nobody’s got anything to say

    That’s certainly not an accurate depiction of what Yoo said. Here’s the actual exchange with law professor Doug Cassel:

    Cassel: If the President deems that he’s got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of the person’s child, there is no law that can stop him?
    Yoo: No treaty.
    Cassel: Also no law by Congress. That is what you wrote in the August 2002 memo.
    Yoo: I think it depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that.[11]

    This was actually made at a public debate in December, 2005. It didn’t come out “just last week” as you assert, Rip Van Winkle.

    Yoo, of course, was exaggerating to make his point about unary executive power and ability to interpret treaties. I’m reasonably certain no one in the executive branch has ever ordered the crushing of a child’s testicles, nor would any countenance such a thing.

    Steverino (e00589)

  43. Of course, Levi, there is the more likely possibility – that you are just so uninformed about the events upon which you opine, that your ignorant, confused ravings just look like lies after you’ve typed them out.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  44. Yeah, that did not convince me either. I’m gonna to stick to intentional falsehood.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  45. Levi, did Karl Rove “manufacture” Wright???

    Damn, I knew he was good, but….20 years in advance???

    reff (bff229)

  46. This was actually made at a public debate in December, 2005. It didn’t come out “just last week” as you assert, Rip Van Winkle.

    You’re right, that quote has been around for a few years, but more documents written by Yoo that even more explicitly outline his position that the President can justify breaking any law as long as he’s ‘protecting’ us.

    Yoo, of course, was exaggerating to make his point about unary executive power and ability to interpret treaties. I’m reasonably certain no one in the executive branch has ever ordered the crushing of a child’s testicles, nor would any countenance such a thing.

    Ah yes, of course he was exaggerating! But how does that explain Abu-Graihb? It’s unfortunate we still have dots to connect dots 4 years after those photos got out, but remember how this was supposed to be just ‘a couple of bad apples?’ That there were high-level DoJ officials fabricating legal justifications for torture doesn’t raise any alarms for you? You can’t put it together that Abu-Graihb was a manifestation of deliberate policy-crafting at the highest levels of the Bush administration?

    Levi (76ef55)

  47. Levi, more falsehoods on your part.

    What emotional need is this meeting for you?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  48. I’m sorry, but when leftists play this game of “they aren’t leftist enough!”, I bow out. It’s beneath sophisticated debate of serious issues, it’s beneath exploration of solutions to serious problems…it’s beneath contempt, really.

    As a law professor once said to our constitutional law class, after three students called upon were obviously unprepared…”I won’t fill empty vessels”.

    In other words, you’re taking your ball and going home. Only like to comment when you have a gaggle of mindless adorers to lavish you with praise, eh?

    Levi (76ef55)

  49. Levi, more falsehoods on your part.

    What emotional need is this meeting for you?

    Yeah, I don’t know. What do you think it is? I’m just a dumb liberal. Why don’t you tell me why I’d come here and lie with each keystroke?

    Levi (76ef55)

  50. I can’t figure out why you tell so many falsehoods, Levi. It is baffling to me. I guess I don’t have the same need for negative attention, the same need to vandalism, that you do.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  51. Karl Rove also invented “Daddy Obama” the anti-Western Socialist,

    and Frank Marshall Davis, the Communist Party mentor,

    Rev. Wright, the Muslim who infiltrated a Christian church and began preaching the Nation of Islam through a dance of the seven veils,

    William Ayers and Bernadette Dorhn, maoists who wear their terrorist attempts at murder and mayhem against our men in uniform as a badge of honor;

    Frantz Fanon, a pro-violence Communist

    Michael Pfleger, pastor at St. Sabina, a renowned anti-semite and follower of Farrakhan

    Obama sought out Communist professors in college, surrounded himself with anti-American, anti-Western, anti-Israel leftists of the most radical bent, aligned himself for 20 years with a church and congregation that was racist, anti-American, anti-Israel, was given 40 YEARS of indoctrination and “mentoring” by “Frank, the Communist” and Jeremiah the Farrakhan Fhony Christian, …he won’t wear an American flag on his lapel, he won’t hold his hand over his heart for the Pledge of Allegiance or the Star Spangled Banner….

    do we need any other engraved invitations into the mindset of this man and his wife?

    They are for a resdistribution of wealth. Unlike most lazy, slothful, mean leftists who sit around all day with their hands in their pockets…these two anti-American leftists want to sit around all day with their hands in OUR pockets.

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  52. do we need any other engraved invitations into the mindset of this man and his wife?

    Well, you could ask him what positions he takes on issues, would that be fair? Or do you think you know everything you need to know about him from his college professors? You seem overly worried that he’s some sort of Soviet infiltrator, do you know that the Cold War is over? Where did all this hysteria about communism come from all of a sudden?

    They are for a resdistribution of wealth.

    Don’t get all high and mighty without turning that mirror on yourself. What is Iraq except costly, wasteful welfare for a bunch of non-Americans?

    Levi (76ef55)

  53. And, since Germany never attacked U.S. territory, I suppose the entire European campaign was wasteful welfare for a bunch of non-Americans, too?
    BDM!

    Another Drew (f9dd2c)

  54. And, since Germany never attacked U.S. territory, I suppose the entire European campaign was wasteful welfare for a bunch of non-Americans, too?

    Hi. Welcome to 2008. Germany’s not anything like Iraq. Way to waste a post.

    Levi (76ef55)

  55. Levi,

    Logic and reason aren’t your friends, are they?

    G (722480)

  56. Well, you could ask him what positions he takes on issues, would that be fair?

    Not only fair, since he’s been running since February 10, 2007, I would think your unbiased leftist controlled media would have tossed him a powder puff question or two on it. Since they won’t, and since he will bob, weave, duck and dodge the question and wouldn’t answer it truthfully anyway…I guess we won’t ever get an answer on it.

    Or do you think you know everything you need to know about him from his college professors?

    I didn’t write the books about him, he did. He hid who “Frank” was, then he hid who Jeremiah was and is, as he hid who his father was, he has hidden his relationship with Ayers, as he hides his relationship with his Nation of Islam staffers and pro-Palestinian advisors.

    I don’t think we know nearly enough about him to run for ward alderman, much less the President of the United States. But again, your diseased leftist playmates have sealed him in an airtight bubble. They won’t ask him anything, he won’t tell us anything that isn’t scripted.

    You seem overly worried that he’s some sort of Soviet infiltrator, do you know that the Cold War is over? Where did all this hysteria about communism come from all of a sudden?

    Soviet infiltrator? Um…you are aware that there is socialism and communism in other countries other than the former Soviet Union, don’t you? After reading about the brainwashing and indoctrination at the U of Delaware…I don’t know what the leftists are mind-melding into the impressionable and weak-willed these days…but, Euro-Socialism, communism and maoism aren’t dead.

    The Cold War with the Soviet Union has passed, but the “useful idiots” it left behind in the wake of its propaganda tools still litter the landscape, here and abroad…especially in parts of Europe.

    Don’t get all high and mighty without turning that mirror on yourself. What is Iraq except costly, wasteful welfare for a bunch of non-Americans?

    A well deserved ass kicking for state sponsored terrorists.

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  57. And, since Germany never attacked U.S. territory, I suppose the entire European campaign was wasteful welfare for a bunch of non-Americans, too?

    Germany declared war on us. That’s got to count for something.

    Xrlq (eaa3a6)

  58. I saw that Levi commented here about 30 times today. Am I to assume that we are all still racists?

    why aren’t there ever any threads about McCain’s wife, a privileged crackhead who stole medicine from kids?

    Proof

    Regardless, Mrs. McCain is not out flapping her gums telling us how she became proud of America for the first time in her life when Baracky took the lead in the primary. See also, the difficulties of keeping fresh fruit, and the rest of her drivel.

    Never mind, I was having too great of a day to wade into the mud and wrestle with a pig.

    JD (cc8862)


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