Jeremiah Wright’s Bible
Barack Obama says he was more interested in Jeremiah Wright’s thoughts on the Bible than in his thoughts about race or politics.
Fine. Point of theological accuracy, then:
God damn America. That’s in the Bible.
It is?
Can someone cite me chapter and verse on that? It’s been a while since my last Bible study . . .
UPDATE: Commenter Tom wants me to give a fuller quote. OK:
The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a Three Strike Law, and then wants us to sing “God Bless America”? No, no, no! Not God bless America! God damn America! That’s in the Bible! For killing innocent people! God damn America! For treating our citizens as less than human! God damn America!
Mmm, still don’t think that’s quite in the Bible.
Silly, Pat. It’s in the penumbra. Duh.
Ed (4d72af) — 3/18/2008 @ 7:19 pmIt’s in The Book of Obamessiah, Chapter 1, Verse 1:
And it came to pass that The Obamessiah, He of the House of Barack Hussein Obama, Sr. of Kenya, and of Ann Durham of Kansas, and of Lolo Soetoro of Indonesia, in the ripeness of His Youth, came before Jeremiah Wright;
nk (34c5da) — 3/18/2008 @ 7:22 pmand The Spirit entered Jeremiah Wright and he became a Prophet;
and The Spirit spoke through Jeremiah and said, “God Damn America”.
And The Obamessiah answered unto Jeremiah thus: “That’s nice Rev., but I’m running for the Illinois Senate, in a black district, and I need black American credentials. Here’s a check for my tithe.”
You must have studied the outdated King James version of the Bible, which was written before America existed.
The New Liberal Translation Bible includes “God Damn America” in every chapter and verse.
Perfect Sense (b6ec8c) — 3/18/2008 @ 7:30 pmIt’s in Jeremiah Wright’s Bible, chapter and verse.
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/18/2008 @ 7:48 pmIts the Loose Translation…the owner gets to make it mean whatever he wants, whatever is convenient, and apparently God plays along.
Dana (af09b0) — 3/18/2008 @ 7:53 pmIt’s not in the Bible, but it’s in the Zinn & Chomsky absorbed & cherished by millions of lefties. Brought to your kids by a schoolteacher near you!
gp (b7b196) — 3/18/2008 @ 8:16 pmMore depth to the controversy here:
http://acropolisreview.com/2008/03/barack-obama-condemns-reverend-jeremiah.html
TC (f77dd4) — 3/18/2008 @ 9:40 pmI missed the depth, TC, where did you hide it?
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/18/2008 @ 9:48 pmCute, Patterico. However, the actual quote is:
“…God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people.”
Boy, that was hard to find:
Exodus 20.13: Thou shalt not kill.
Can you believe the nerve of this lunatic? Actually suggesting that God condemns murdering the innocent, just because He clearly does condemn murdering the innocent?
No, but seriously, don’t let a little “honesty” or “context” get in the way of the festivities. Let’s all have a nice, big belly-laugh at that crazed black man who believes that God neither blesses nor excuses American slaughter of innocent civilians. Har!
Tom (95c491) — 3/18/2008 @ 11:13 pmTom #9: Gee, Tom, glad you straightened out the context for us.
I’m guessing English might not be your first language?
EW1(SG) (84e813) — 3/19/2008 @ 12:00 amTom, assuming you can read, you might want to read a bit more of the book of Exodus, and those around it. Maybe you’ll reach the conclusion that God wants to damn America after all, for not killing enough people.
Xrlq (62cad4) — 3/19/2008 @ 2:49 amMy guess is the bible damns people for doing certain things, and the US has done those thing. There’s a lot in there so it wouldn’t surprise me.
stef (23c2b4) — 3/19/2008 @ 4:18 am“Maybe you’ll reach the conclusion that God wants to damn America after all, for not killing enough people.”
And now the bible may be inconsistent? OH NO that obama is bringing up dangerous ideas!
stef (688568) — 3/19/2008 @ 4:24 amThe Bible rejects national, collective or hereditary guilt more than once. See, e.g.,
Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
nk (34c5da) — 3/19/2008 @ 4:28 am2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
“The Bible rejects national, collective or hereditary guilt more than once. See, e.g.,”
Too bad nobody told the children of Sodom & Gomorrah. But maybe it’s ok, because it is fiction.
stef (f1ac23) — 3/19/2008 @ 4:37 am#10: If you don’t have anything nice intelligent to say…
#11: Xrlq, our host asked a simple question, and I gave the obvious, simple answer. I know that violated the spirit of this post, which was to laugh at half of Wright’s quote, rather than consider the actual theological viewpoint behind the completed quote, but too bad.
Since you brought it up, I agree that there are many instances of God ordaining (and sometimes seemingly causing) the death of innocent people in the Bible, particularly the ‘Old Testament.’ I don’t apply a view of absolute literalism to the Bible. But regardless, the clear answer to “is it in there?” is “yes.”
#15: Nice!
Tom (2e1e5d) — 3/19/2008 @ 5:04 amGenesis is myth and allegory. You can call it fiction if you want. What you choose to learn, whether from your Bible or your priest, is the point of this post. Did Obama learn “God Damn America” from Jeremiah Wright?
nk (34c5da) — 3/19/2008 @ 5:09 amUh, no. “Thou shalt not…” does not equal “I damn thee…”
God damn you who committed adultery? God damn you who have stolen? God damn you who have disrespected your parents? Not in any Christianity I’m familiar with, nor in any Bible I’ve read. Care to try again, Tom?
If it’s in there, that ain’t it. Your answer is not clear, but wrong.
Pablo (99243e) — 3/19/2008 @ 5:14 am#14: nk, your point on the distinction between nation and individual is well taken. I tend to fall more on Xrlq and stef’s perspective, which is that this is one of the messages on which the Bible is inconsistent, even though I’d like to believe that God’s will is fairly clear anyway (“Don’t kill innocent people”).
But the original question was, is it true to say “God damn America, that’s in the Bible-“? Well, no. But is there truth to the actual statement: “God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people”?
I happen to believe it is true that God condemns murdering innocent people. Don’t most people here?
Tom (2e1e5d) — 3/19/2008 @ 5:17 am“Genesis is myth and allegory. You can call it fiction if you want. ”
Yes. Religion is mythology. Thanks.
“Did Obama learn “God Damn America” from Jeremiah Wright?”
Anyone that looks at history finds that America has done damnable things. Its revisionism to claim this is controversial, or that it is a feeling that is controversial to express.
stef (3027cb) — 3/19/2008 @ 5:20 amHe condemns the individuals who did the killing. Not their parents, siblings, children or neighbors.
nk (34c5da) — 3/19/2008 @ 5:21 amYou’re welcome, stef.
nk (34c5da) — 3/19/2008 @ 5:22 amAgain, you’ll have to show us where it says anything of the sort.
So, just to make sure I’ve got this right, you believe that America murders innocent people?
Pablo (99243e) — 3/19/2008 @ 5:34 am18: Pablo, that’s an important distinction, and you are correct that God does not state, in the quote I gave above, that damnation follows breaking the commandment.
However, you’re splitting hairs if you’re going to try and argue that God doesn’t condemn murdering the innocent. I would argue that the sanctity of life is a theological notion that is almost universally assumed among believers, and many pastors assume that God has damnation in store for those who break God’s commandments.
I don’t necessarily agree with these sentiments, but in defense of Rev. Wright, the notion that God damns those who murder innocent people is simply not a radical idea to most Christians.
Tom (2e1e5d) — 3/19/2008 @ 5:51 amOf cource, Pablo. I mean, those poor, innocent, inoffensive VC alone…
Oh, wait, Innocent means stuff like “didn’t try and kill us”, doesn’t it. Heh. My bad.
Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 3/19/2008 @ 5:55 amSo, how does that encompass “God damn America?” And how does that land “God damn America” into the Bible?
Are you saying that it logically follows because America murders innocent people?
Pablo (99243e) — 3/19/2008 @ 5:56 amPablo asked last time, so I’ll ask this time: You think the United States of America, as policy, MURDERS innocent people? That it intentionally sets out to end the lives of the innocent?
Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 3/19/2008 @ 5:57 amDamnit Pablo! I wanted to Be The Guy this time…
Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 3/19/2008 @ 5:57 am#23, Pablo: Allow me to clarify:
I happen to believe it is true that God condemns murdering innocent people.
And I do believe that America murders has murdered innocent people at various points in history. But that’s not really the point of this post, which was to address the question of whether or not God condemns state-sanctioned murder of innocent people.
Tom (2e1e5d) — 3/19/2008 @ 6:00 amOh, BTW, I wouldn’t be entirely sure about that.
Pablo (99243e) — 3/19/2008 @ 6:02 amAs has France, German, Russia, Vietnam, China, Japan, the UK, Ireland, and let’s not forget the entirety of the Middle Easy.
So, pretty much we’re all fucked.
Excuse me, I’m going to go build a boat or something…
Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 3/19/2008 @ 6:04 amNo, Tom, that isn’t the question. The question is “where does the Bible say ‘God damn America’?”
Scroll back up. All the way. There. See it?
Next, we’ll examine the definition of murder and whether it’s something that America does. You know, in this century.
Pablo (99243e) — 3/19/2008 @ 6:05 am#31: You’re right. Other countries have murdered innocent people too. This does not negate my point that America has murdered innocent people at various points throughout history.
#30, 32: Pablo, are you seriously arguing that God really doesn’t give a shit whether we murder innocent people or not? Guess I have a different theological perspective than you.
I’ll leave it to you to decide for yourself whether Jeremiah Wright was saying “‘God damn America’ is in the Bible” or “America is worthy of God’s damnation for murdering the innocent.” I think an honest (and complete) reading of Rev. Wright’s statement reflects the latter.
Tom (2e1e5d) — 3/19/2008 @ 6:28 amWhat’s actually in the Bible and what people think are in the Bible are two different things.
To paraphrase Dave Barry, a crazy religion is one you don’t belong to.
To me, the question reduces as to what Obama believes, why he’s associated with Wright, and what effect that will have on his policies. I have an unusually kind view toward the whole thing; I think he joined Wright’s church for political gain, pays lip service to it, and will not be influenced by Wright’s particular brand of evil.
Still, that’s an unadmirable trait.
As to killing all the known associates of bad people:
Numbers 31: 1-18
Joshua 8:24-25
I Samuel 15: 2-3
(Many more)
Of course, we’re not limited to people who have been bad; Job’s initial family might have a beef, too.
But the bigger factor remains what this shows about Obama and what the effect will be. It shows he’s a political opportunist – not the first, but still not admirable to put up with this for so long.
–JRM
JRM (355c21) — 3/19/2008 @ 6:29 amThe central point is that the Bible condemns individual behavior (in general) while Wright is equating the entire country with those who have done wrong. It is a collectivist view in line with the idea that “America” is a vast white malignant monolithic whole. If you look at the Bible, the punishments on countries where not damnation, it was a physical destruction. Misdeeds do not always = sins
Dr T (69c4b2) — 3/19/2008 @ 7:09 amTom,
I updated the post with a fuller quote. It’s fuller than what I originally had . . . and fuller than yours, too.
I’ll leave it to readers to decide for themselves whether Jeremiah Wright was saying “God damn America” only for killing innocent people, or “God damn America” also for treating blacks in a way that Jeremiah Wright disapproves of — including imprisoning those who commit crimes, particularly those who commit a felony with two or more serious or violent felonies on their record (the Three Strikes Law). I think an honest (and complete) reading of Rev. Wright’s statement reflects the latter.
Patterico (2708c9) — 3/19/2008 @ 7:17 amI’m pointing out that God has, on more than one occasion, wiped out humanity or certain segments of it, which included innocents. You’ll also remember an innocent named Jesus Christ whom God put among men so that he be killed. I’ll leave it to you to define it as murder or not, and to deny the truth of what the Bible says about these things and their place in God’s plan. Them’s the facts. Do with them what you will.
That’s because you want to believe that, and if you believe it, it therefore must be truthy and pure. An honest and complete reading of the quote would find that which is contained in the quote: “God damn America, it’s in the Bible.”
I’m arguing that it isn’t, you’re arguing that it is. Again, please show us where it is, as you have not done so. And please show us where America is murdering innocents. Not where it’s happened historically, but where it is happening now and/or recently. Because, you know, redemption is a basic tenet of Christianity, so let’s stick with Modern America before we’re all paying for all the sins of all of the history of mankind. And protecting and liberating innocents is quite American. And given that it includes laying down their own lives for the salvation of others, I’d say it’s quite Christian and that God looks kindly upon it.
Pablo (99243e) — 3/19/2008 @ 7:20 amBTW, I’ll refer you to what the Obamessiah has had to say about that quote and the others we’ve recently heard:
Perhaps you should be arguing with him.
Pablo (99243e) — 3/19/2008 @ 7:24 amTheres nothing wrong with the KING JAMES BIBLE its better then the one by scumbags like JEREMIAH WRIGHT
krazy kagu (5006b4) — 3/19/2008 @ 7:25 amWhat you call “state-sanctioned murder” is clearly outside the scope of “Thou shalt not kill,” which was directed at individuals rather than states. That’s why I urged you to read the rest of Exodus, which on numerous occasions not only allows, but actually commands the state to kill. To argue that the Bible forbids states to kill is to willfully (or at a bare minimum, recklessly) misread Exodus 20:13, right up there with arguing that Exodus 20.9 requires the entire state – including the police and the fire department – to completely shut down for the Sabbath.
But let’s assume, just for grits and shins, that your disingenuous misreading of the Bible is the theologically “correct” reading after all. Do we really want someone who believes that crap in the White House?
Xrlq (b71926) — 3/19/2008 @ 7:51 amPatterico, I appreciate your update. Also, in #36, you raise a much more fair question than I believe was the subject of your original post, so I appreciate that clarification as well.
Tom (2e1e5d) — 3/19/2008 @ 8:00 amG-D used to be a wrathful and vengeful G-d. That was before He gave His only begotten Son. G-d has no more need of Avenging Angels.
John 3:16 :
For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)
kimsch (2ce939) — 3/19/2008 @ 8:34 amFor what it’s worth, here are my two cents: the bible of Christianity is the story of a race of people over the course of hundreds and hundreds of years. It covers a host of situations, personal and otherwise that allow for “lessons” in life to be grasped by the hearer or, later, reader. It is the story of this group of people who were successful in bringing to the planet the concept of ONE god and it cost them dearly since that time in blood and death through the 20th century and is threatened even more today in the 2lst century.
Sue (c2ad76) — 3/19/2008 @ 8:41 amThen along came Jesus Christ and he not only died for every humans’ past, present and future sins, but he died to create an everlasting covenant of love and peace between humans who believed in his message and his father and followed it. That became the New Testament. While we may argue, discuss and use the Old Testament to uplift our side, remember, the New Testament rules. Is it possible for a human being to claim Jesus Christ and hate and damn at the same time? I don’t think so. We have yet to fully understand and live by Jesus Christ and/or his Father.
It is clear that if you truly love who and what you are, you will love others and can do no harm. The problem? Humans are human and too many love money, power, prestige controlling others. These “people” actually think they know best and the Pastor Wright is one of those! The beauty of the Bible old and new is that it works whether you believe or not. You just have to live it, minute by minute of every day of your life.
Context, context, context, context, context.
Here’s Rev. Wright following 9/11 – in context.
Here’s the context behind the “God damn America” sermon.
Notice how the 10 second snippets we’ve been fed provide such a vastly different portrayal of Rev. Wright than the segments – in context – offered above.
—
Patterico, you rightfully are a stickler in calling for fair, honest, and accurate statements in other people’s media, while generally maintaining that standard here on this blog. But there have been many posts here that have vilified Rev. Wright based on a dishonest caricature that has arisen as a result of decontextualized fragments, strung together.
We could make anybody look bad under those conditions, but that’s not supposed to be the name of the game, now is it? I think you should offer some kind of correction or update which reflects this new understanding.
Peace,
Tom (5ae731) — 3/25/2008 @ 5:41 amTom
Still wrong, Tom. Nice try.
JD (75f5c3) — 3/25/2008 @ 5:44 amNo, JD, you’re wrong!
Tom (5ae731) — 3/25/2008 @ 6:01 am(I got my rebuttal down to four words. Beat that.)
Tom (5ae731) — 3/25/2008 @ 6:02 amLoonwaffle. I win.
JD (75f5c3) — 3/25/2008 @ 6:44 amTom’s wrong
JD (75f5c3) — 3/25/2008 @ 6:44 amJD!
JD (75f5c3) — 3/25/2008 @ 6:44 amNo
(two letters – I win.)
Tom (5ae731) — 3/25/2008 @ 7:19 am“I’m pointing out that God has, on more than one occasion, wiped out humanity or certain segments of it, which included innocents.”
– Pablo
Maybe. Certainly, God has wiped out humanity or certain segments of it, but there’s nothing (in the Bible, anyway) to indicate that said wipings included innocents. Indeed, when Moses pleads for Sodom and Gomorrah, God says “for the sake of ten [righteous men], I will not destroy it” (Genesis 18: 23-32). That would seem to indicate that God differentiates between guilt and innocence. Even if you take the Great Flood, God saved Noah’s family.
Leviticus (b987b0) — 3/25/2008 @ 8:14 am