Kristen Speaks
[Guest post by DRJ]
“Kristen” has come forward to speak with the New York Times:
“She left a broken home on the Jersey Shore at 17 and came to New York City to work the nightclubs as a rhythm and blues singer. Now, at 22, she is the unwitting, and as yet unseen, star of the seamy drama that is the downfall of Gov. Eliot Spitzer of New York.
Kristen, described in a federal affidavit as having a Feb. 13 rendezvous with Mr. Spitzer at the Mayflower Hotel in Washington, has spent the last few days in her ninth-floor rental in an upscale apartment building in the Flatiron district. On Monday, she made a brief appearance in federal court as a witness in the case against four people charged with operating the prostitution ring, Emperor’s Club V.I.P. In a series of telephone interviews on Tuesday night, she said she had slept very little over the past week due to the stress from the case.
“I just don’t want to be thought of as a monster,” the woman said as she told the tiniest tidbits of her story.”
The article continues with several references to Kristen’s MySpace page and her keen interest in music. It also suggests she was the victim of abuse earlier in her life. This sounds like the classic portrait of a girl that might end up in this situation. At the end of the article, Kristen’s mother described her as a “very bright girl” but she wasn’t sure Kristen realized who Spitzer was when he was her client.
However, Kristen’s quote that she doesn’t want to be considered a monster is what most caught my eye. Of all the things I thought about this episode, I never thought of Kristen as a monster. I’m not sure why she thinks this. My best guess is that she fears Democrats may compare her to Monica Lewinsky and blame her for bringing down one of their political stars.
There are photos at the link.
— DRJ
UPDATE BY PATTERICO: Here is the MySpace page.
From the MySpace page there is a link to a band’s website that she is a part of.
Look over at the right side of the webpage listed among “Fans” and you see ….. a picture of ELLIOT SPITZER!!!!!!!
WLS (68fd1f) — 3/12/2008 @ 3:39 pmI think the Gov.’s got a thing for Sandra Bullock look-alikes.
Someone better be on the lookout for Jesse James.
WLS (68fd1f) — 3/12/2008 @ 3:41 pm“My best guess is that she fears Democrats may compare her to Monica Lewinsky and blame her for bringing down one of their political stars.”
That’s a pretty ridiculous guess. She didn’t seek him out or try to publicize this so it is impossible to blame her for it. You couldn’t even try to blame the pimp-site for his downfall. I doubt you will see any Democrat blaming anyone other than Spitzer himself (completely valid blame) or the motives behind the prosecutors in taking the rare decision to federalize a prostitution case (probably invalid blame, the law’s the law).
I think her “monster” comment just goes to the general opprobrium some people attach to paid whores. You will find that people who think prostitutes are “monsters” fall all over the spectrum, from certain types of feminists to certain types of conservative religious folk.
If you see any Democrat trying to demonize her specifically for this, I will be proven wrong and owe you an apology. I will state up front that such a Democrat is a partisan idiot.
Aplomb (770d80) — 3/12/2008 @ 3:55 pmDRJ wrote: Of all the things I thought about this episode, I never thought of Kristen as a monster. I’m not sure why she thinks this. My best guess is that she fears Democrats may compare her to Monica Lewinsky and blame her for bringing down one of their political stars.
Maybe she was thinking about people like me, because while it goes without saying that I can’t stand guys like Spitzer, Clinton, Vitter, Craig, etc., I think of Kristen and all other whores as parasites.
As dumb as these glamorous girls seem, they’re not wearing helmets and drooling. Kristen knew just what she was doing. Get a load of this bit from the NYT piece:
OK…process that for a moment. The dude that was paying her rent LEFT her after SHE found out HE had kids. She was living with the guy not knowing that about him — he was keeping her, and that was good enough for her. Only God knows why her knowledge of her kids was a deal-breaker, but note that she didn’t say that she had a particular interest in him as a person, just his support.
With him gone, oh, my! What shall she do? Here’s a thought, Kris…How ’bout getting a freaking job?
(Oops…she’s already got that. Let me rephrase that.)
How ’bout getting a legitimate job, one that you don’t have to be ashamed of? One that doesn’t rely on the unhappiness of other women? One that doesn’t put you at risk of contracting diseases that you never completely recover from? One that doesn’t put potentially place you at the mercy of powerful, connected, and utterly soulless men with personality disorders?
Sorry, DRJ, and can’t go with you on this. Monsters aren’t all like Spitzer, looking like the creature in Alien with his beady eyes, huge forehead, and nasty disposition. Sometimes the monsters are like the one in Lifeforce — drop dead gorgeous, hurricanes in the sack, with the goal of sucking your soul out of you.
L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:10 pmOn the monster thing… aplomb and L.N.Smithee are spot-on. She doesn’t want her self-image or public-image to suffer the consequences of her choices. Whether someone favors legalization of prostitution doesn’t matter. Whether someone believes that most prostitutes are victims doesn’t matter. Even if someone believes it an honorable profession that is unfairly maligned doesn’t matter. There is a stigma that much of society will attach to her forever now, that’s what matters to her. She doesn’t like the thought of that.
Stashiu3 (460dc1) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:20 pmI’ve been calling her and the rest of her profession because, well, they are.
But as a person, on her own, I don’t consider her a monster…
The fact remains that she was banging a guy easily old enough to be her dad (I wonder what part of his “young” thing was about… *shudder*) for cash, though.
Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:26 pmSmithee writes: “Sometimes the monsters are like the one in Lifeforce — drop dead gorgeous, hurricanes in the sack, with the goal of sucking your soul out of you.”
How come I only meet the ugly kind?
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:29 pmThese are all interesting responses. I thought Spitzer was right to prosecute people as Attorney General but he was wrong to moralize about prostitution while using their services. Even so, I don’t care if he used prostitutes and I don’t care if Kristen is/was a prostitute, and neither one is a “monster” for doing that.
However, if Kristen believed that being a prostitute was a monstrous thing to do, then she shouldn’t have done it. It’s too late to play the victim now.
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:30 pmWLS or anyone who knows,
Educate me about MySpace because I couldn’t find a link to the band. If Kristen’s band lists Eliot Spitzer as a fan, is that because they put him there or did he list himself? If anyone can do it, maybe some prankster did it today. Are you kidding because, if not, it seems too strange to be a coincidence.
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:41 pmShe’s a low level cog in an organized crime ring. Let’s not get into “whore with a heart of gold” mythologies.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:41 pmI don’t think she’s a monster, especially as an individual. She made some poor choices out of poor options, but she’s not the one who betrayed any expectations… Spitzer is, and on many levels. The tabloids, MSM, and religious extremists are all going to take their shots at her too though. She knows it’s coming and was speaking to the rest of the people, you know… the normal ones.
Stashiu3 (460dc1) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:42 pmIs she a target and knows she will be prosecuted? If so, I can see why she might want to get early press and spin it. If not, then she outed herself even though she might never have been publicly named.
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:45 pmI was in some bad places (not this bad) when I was 22, and I didn’t even come from a broken home. Kristen isn’t a monster, she isn’t a saint. She’s a young person making her way in the world who has, apparently, had some bad luck and made some bad choices. I don’t feel sorry for her, however.
I am thoroughly grossed-out by the behavior of a public prosecutor whose professional behavior can be fairly described as “monstrous” hiring young women young enough to be his daughters for sex.
You know….I could almost forgive a true bon vivant a once-in-a-lifetime fling. But shouldn’t they be able to at least relate to grown-up ladies?
driver (faae10) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:45 pmExactly… while avoiding the “soul-sucking double-dealing filth” mythology as well. “Low level cog”, I like that, very apt.
Stashiu3 (460dc1) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:46 pmAlong the lines of what Driver said, if Kristen was really worried what people might think, why not just say “I’m young and made a big mistake because I needed money” or something like that?
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:46 pm#6 Scott
“I’ve been calling her and the rest of her profession . . .”
Whoa there! Take it easy! It’s not a competition.
Apogee (366e8b) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:51 pmI think everybody involved should be worried about getting rolled up in this.
Driver, it’s not the fling… it’s the fantasy. You know, the one that tells him this is the kind of girl he could have gotten back when he was 22, if only they weren’t so stupid back then as to ignore him. To him, it’s not the money that really gets her to be with him. That just lets her be free to give herself over to his nearly irresistible looks and charm.
Stashiu3 (460dc1) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:53 pmMaybe because if she had the intelligence and insight to think of that, she would have had enough to avoid the whole situation in the first place.
Stashiu3 (460dc1) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:55 pmI guess the question I’d like to see Eliot “the F-ing Steamroller” Spitzer asked is this: what would you do, Mr. F-ing Steamroller, if you wound up in a hotel room and found out that the F-ing $4300 22-year-old sex toy they sent you was your F-ing daughter?
driver (faae10) — 3/12/2008 @ 4:55 pmI am not sure what to think except there is no way I pay $1000.00 a hour for HER.
Dennis D (ae900a) — 3/12/2008 @ 5:00 pmAww, DRJ. Thanks. You just had to point that out, and I just had to click on the link. And then I just had to click on the link to her MySpace page, which crashed my computer.
If she was getting $1000+ an hour, why in the hell can’t she afford rent ?
JD (626b4c) — 3/12/2008 @ 5:00 pmStashiu3, although I’d like to think that 22-year-olds are typically fonts of insight, my own experience tells me otherwise. But I do expect older people to try to set a decent example.
driver (faae10) — 3/12/2008 @ 5:01 pmJD,
I’m sorry. Next time, we’ll let WLS follow the MySpace links and report back.
Stashiu,
Maybe I’m over-thinking this but, to me, a monster is someone evil who intends to harm. Right now, I don’t see anyone with an intent to harm. Thus, it’s hard for me to think of these people as monsters. Some or all of them may be greedy, selfish, arrogant, stupid, and reckless … but not monsters.
Aplomb,
I regret you thought my comment was aimed at Democrats. I’m not a Democrat and I do try to point out problems with Democratic policies when I see them. However, I wasn’t trying to score points in this case.
I was and am having problems understanding where Kristen’s “monster” comment came from and I wrote my best guess. If you want to fault me, fault me for not rushing to imagine that Kristen was worried people would call her a monster simply because she is young, pretty, and chose to be a prostitute.
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/12/2008 @ 5:12 pmRight there with ya! I’m really not saying any of them are… just that there are folks out there who are going to take their shots.
Also, I don’t think it was unfair to speculate she might think Democrats would demonize her like they did Monica… I didn’t read that to mean that you thought she would be correct to do so. Many motivations are based on things that would probably never happen in reality.
Stashiu3 (460dc1) — 3/12/2008 @ 5:21 pmOverhead?
::ducks::
Stashiu3 (460dc1) — 3/12/2008 @ 5:22 pmYeah, that was bad stash. Real bad. lol
JD (626b4c) — 3/12/2008 @ 5:45 pmStashiu
I didn’t think anyone would demonize her until I read her quote, and that made me wonder why she thought that. I still don’t know exactly what she meant but, after this discussion, I’m more likely to think she’s worried people will think she’s immoral, and immoral = monster.
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/12/2008 @ 5:48 pmplayboy spread in 5…4…3…
assistant devil's advocate (33bb9c) — 3/12/2008 @ 5:53 pmI don’t think Kristin is any more a monster than say…Hillary Clinton. Her comment just strikes me as age appropriate – young, insecure and so self-centered she doesn’t even grasp the devastating effect her own actions have had on Mrs. Spitzer and her daughters.
Dana (213179) — 3/12/2008 @ 6:05 pmYou’re right, Dana, and I feel like smacking my head. Those days were so long ago that I didn’t even remember the feeling until you said that.
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/12/2008 @ 6:09 pmIt was the fact that she had a MySpace page, DRJ! Dead giveaway.
Dana (213179) — 3/12/2008 @ 6:13 pmi don’t believe kristen’s actions had any effect on mrs. spitzer and her daughters. if not for her, it would have been one of the other girls, she wasn’t the only horse in the stable. mrs. spitzer obviously bought into the whole political wife package, showing up next to her husband for his recent announcements, now she has the same qualifications as hillary to be president.
assistant devil's advocate (33bb9c) — 3/12/2008 @ 6:21 pmMySpace, Facebook, Mistress Claudia’s House of… oh, never mind that last. But Dana’s right, a MySpace page can be a good indicator of insecurity and/or narcissism (not mutually exclusive). Not proof, but a red flag.
Stashiu3 (460dc1) — 3/12/2008 @ 6:26 pmI dated Italian, Jersey Shore girls who looked a lot like Kristen–very hot at 22 years old. But she’s precariously close to the years when the inevitable, Italian-Grandma gene kicks in.
Or maybe it’s just the pasta.
PLC14 (f74534) — 3/12/2008 @ 6:53 pmStashiu3 wrote, 3/12/2008 @ 4:20 pm:
The underlying arguments above seem to be that prostitutes are monsters because their profession is illegal, and it is illegal because they are monsters.
In most civilized western countries prostitution is not illegal. Are prostitutes monsters if they practice their profession in a country where it is legal?
Occasional Reader (58294c) — 3/12/2008 @ 7:02 pmWe are just not enlightened enough, like they are in Amsterdam, or Vegas, or Reno.
JD (626b4c) — 3/12/2008 @ 7:10 pmAplomb, We’ve seen James Carville imply that someone put her up to this to bring down Eliot Spitzer.
Occasional Reader, don’t exaggerate the number of western countries that have legalized prostitution, or at least don’t play “No True Scotsman” with us.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/12/2008 @ 7:11 pmdriver wrote: I guess the question I’d like to see Eliot “the F-ing Steamroller” Spitzer asked is this: what would you do, Mr. F-ing Steamroller, if you wound up in a hotel room and found out that the F-ing $4300 22-year-old sex toy they sent you was your F-ing daughter?
That’s easy. He’d do what he always did — abuse the power of his office, threatening to make the life of everyone responsible miserable if they didn’t do exactly what he said. That strategy served him well up until about three weeks ago.
Read John Fund and/or Kimberley Strassel’s editorials on WSJ.com for more details.
L.N. Smithee (c23812) — 3/12/2008 @ 7:17 pmplayboy spread in 5…4…3…
Followed quickly by a book deal, then followed by a movie deal.
Gerald A (56a23d) — 3/12/2008 @ 7:28 pmLN – Ms. Strassel ended one of those articles by saying …
I guess this is what happens when the media and the voters do not care.
JD (626b4c) — 3/12/2008 @ 7:30 pmOccasional Reader,
That’s not the underlying argument. You really live up to your name, eh? You not only didn’t read the thread, you didn’t even read the whole comment. I don’t think she’s a monster. I don’t think prostitutes are monsters.
The fact that tabloids, the MSM, and religious extremists are likely to call her one is what she is concerned about. My point was that this is a consequence of her decisions that she would rather not face.
Most religious folks are going to remember the story of Mary Magdalene and not be too harsh, even though they likely disapprove. The Fred Phelps-level extremists are going to be the ones calling her a monster.
Either read the thread and comprehend the comments or stop being dishonest and misrepresenting them.
Stashiu3 (460dc1) — 3/12/2008 @ 7:34 pmIf it is okay to read on occasion, it only stands to reason that it is okay to only think on occasion. You should try to coordinate your occasional typing with the even less frequent thinking.
JD (626b4c) — 3/12/2008 @ 7:43 pmShe is more sinned against than sinning. Be kind to another parent’s child.
nk (8a8387) — 3/12/2008 @ 8:06 pmI am not sure what to think except there is no way I pay $1000.00 a hour for HER.
Her knees are too sharp for you?
Patterico (4bda0b) — 3/12/2008 @ 8:11 pmYouth is an excuse she has and Spitzer lacks. I didn’t find anything particularly surprising or remarkable in the NYT article.
And not to burst her bubble, or the media bubble around her, but from the limited wiretap quotes from Spitzer about their pre-Valentine’s Day encounter, she was apparently only one of many, many, and not very memorable to him from her past encounters.
Beldar (433d17) — 3/12/2008 @ 8:14 pmoccasional reader wrote: The underlying arguments above seem to be that prostitutes are monsters because their profession is illegal, and it is illegal because they are monsters.
I cannot speak for aplomb, but IMHO, prostitution is not monstrous simply because of its illegality. It is the way that the sexual act — the physical bond that separates marriage from just close friendship — is cheapened by, first of all, turning it into a commodity, and secondly, giving what is supposed to be sacred to a total stranger who aspires to capitalistic indifference regarding it.
Prostitutes are monsters because they don’t care if they are taking the physical affection (such as it is) that rightfully belongs to another woman. They know there are unsuspecting wives who aren’t getting what they should be from their men (both sex AND money), and they don’t care as long as they are paid. Sure, it’s not their problem, but they know that it is likely a problem for a woman somewhere. So much for sisterhood. And so what if the guys are giving it away like it’s nothing? It’s not really rightfully theirs to give. If you are in receipt of stolen property, you have to answer to the law just like the thief.
I don’t know if things have changed since Phil Donahue did a program taped at the Mustang Ranch in Nevada, but what he was told then was that the whores — who all had their own personal wills and won’ts — uniformly agreed that they NEVER kiss the johns. Why not? Kisses were “too intimate,” and the women would save kisses for the ones they loved.
Think about that. Every pubescent child dreams of a magical first kiss that leads to deeper levels of intimacy. Once that intimacy becomes a profession, and women are paid more depending on how much they are willing to be degraded by strangers, it is a kiss with the nameless, faceless guys with cash that becomes taboo.
That’s the bassackward thinking that such a sordid profession does to you.
L.N. Smithee (c23812) — 3/12/2008 @ 8:15 pmWell, damn, now I have second thoughts about that comment, because it could be read to imply that becoming memorable to Eliot Spitzer is a good thing. Let me just say: I have no ill wish toward this young woman, nor any sympathy for Eliot Spitzer.
Beldar (433d17) — 3/12/2008 @ 8:15 pmGerald A wrote: …Followed quickly by a book deal, then followed by a movie deal.
The perfect actor to play Spitzer would be Josh Brolin, but he won’t do it for two reasons: Since No Country for Old Men, he’s too big to do quickie biopics, and because his mother-in-law would never forgive him.
Maybe the folks at the Liberty Film Festival could take on the Spitzer saga.
L.N. Smithee (c23812) — 3/12/2008 @ 8:20 pmBeldar,
I’ve decided it’s dangerous to say much about this, too. Apart from the obvious jokes, there’s a lot of subtext and it seems like everyone has a different frame of reference.
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/12/2008 @ 8:20 pmi have no ill wish toward this young woman either. it’s a net positive contribution to society to blow up a criminal pussyhound governor, and to catalyze as many jokes as she has since monday.
assistant devil's advocate (33bb9c) — 3/12/2008 @ 8:22 pmProstitution is a debased and degraded condition. As slavery is. The utmost of Creation, the wonderful human body, for sale.
But who bears the greater fault? The prostitute and the slave? Or the “client” and the slaver?
nk (8a8387) — 3/12/2008 @ 8:27 pmMySpace, Facebook, Mistress Claudia’s House of… oh, never mind that last. But Dana’s right, a MySpace page can be a good indicator of insecurity and/or narcissism (not mutually exclusive). Not proof, but a red flag.
How about a blog? I’d say it’s probably prima facie evidence of narcissism . . . wouldn’t you, my fellow blogger?
Patterico (4bda0b) — 3/12/2008 @ 8:35 pmMost religious folks are going to remember the story of Mary Magdalene and not be too harsh, even though they likely disapprove.
The Fred Phelps-level extremists are going to be the ones calling her a monster.
Oh, brother.
1. I’m not going to get into whether or not the Gospels indicate that Mary Magdalene was a harlot. I will just remind you that in the widely misused incident in John chapter 8 in which Jesus is quoted as saying “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone,” he goes on to say to the adulterous woman, “Go and sin no more.”
Once again: That’s “sin NO more,” not “sin SOME more.”
2. Fred Phelps is one of the few people I’ve never met that I can honestly (and regrettably) say that I hate. He and his foul brood of vicious, blasphemous freaks (with law degrees!) disgust me. And my Bible education leads me to believe that Jesus feels the same way about them as he felt about the Pharisees in John 7.
I called Kristin a monster, and until she straightens up and flies right, that’s how I’ll think of her.
L.N. Smithee (c23812) — 3/12/2008 @ 8:45 pmAnd what will you call the men who use her body?
nk (8a8387) — 3/12/2008 @ 8:52 pmHer 15 minutes of fame have now officially started, and we’ll see if she understands the difference between “net worth” and “cash flow”.
Even with a price of $5,000 an hour (of which I’ll bet over half went to Kristen’s employer), she’s about to see the kind of cash offers most people at age 22 can only dream of — certainly enough cash so that, if she really doesn’t want to be thought of as a “monster”, she can use to build up a comfortable bank account for young adulthood and get into a less stigmatized/risky business.
The alternate is she suddenly finds her 15 minutes the publicity equivalent of crack cocaine, and does what she can to remain in the public spotlight after that, without the (relative) musical ability of a Brittany of Lindsey or the trust fund money to burn of Paris. Which would mean burning through all the initial cash income from the first print and TV offers and going lower and lower on the humiliation scale to be part of projects that capitalize on her high-priced hooker reputation. Based on recent history, my guess is the latter, and we’ll see at least a couple of years of Jessica Hahn/Donna Rice-like stunts until she disappears with little cash on hand and no shred of dignity intact.
John (34537e) — 3/12/2008 @ 8:52 pmNot me my friend… I’m just out for that “crazy blog money”, remember? 😉
btw, I got the sitemeter in as you suggested and I think I’m almost up to 0.001% of your traffic. It’s moving up fast. Another year and I’ll have your lead cut to hundreths of a percent. Maybe. I’m enjoying it anyway.
But yeah, you have to have some narcissistic traits to blog at all… part of a healthy ego too. MySpace and Facebook are social networking sites designed for “Look at me!” types. Blogging can be the same, but is less suited to unhealthy narcissists because a site that does nothing except say “Look at me!” doesn’t get looked at much (as a general rule). It’s got to focus outside the blogger as an individual and more on ideas to draw people in. At least the political blogs, milblogs, specialty blogs, and such. I don’t recall any personal blogs ranking very high in traffic.
Stashiu3 (460dc1) — 3/12/2008 @ 9:03 pmStashiu3 wrote, 3/12/2008 @ 7:34 pm:
First: I didn’t say that you, Stashiu3, made the underlying argument.
Second: I quoted you agreeing with aplomb and Smitheree:
Which referred to the arguments they had articulated. Aplomb speculated that Democrats would call her a monster. Smitheree seemed to call her a monster directly. He verified in a later comment that he indeed believes prostitutes are monsters. I referred to the common argument that both had presented, one directly, the other as a speculation.
That was the underlying argument to which I referred.
I read. I comprehended. I wrote honestly. I asked an honest question. I misrepresented nothing.
Smitheree answered my question honestly.
You, Stashiu3, and JD following you, chose only to make accusations of me for making the observation, if not for asking the question.
Having read both your comments occasionally over the past year or so, I expected different. Now I know something I didn’t know before.
My question remains, however, but I will rephrase it to make perfectly clear that I am not attributing words to Stashiu3 or JD: In your opinion, would those who call prostitutes monsters here in America where prostitution is generally illegal, also call prostitutes monsters in countries where it is not illegal?
If someone wishes to answer the question, then thank you. Otherwise, I’ll be content that at least Smitheree chose to do so.
And, to address the nit picked by SPQR at 3/12/2008 @ 7:11 pm, I’ll revise my preliminary statement: In many civilized western countries, prostitution is legal.
Occasional Reader (28e12b) — 3/12/2008 @ 9:07 pmUp to you sir. You choose to judge her, I accept that. I would respectully submit that just because she used the term monster, there may be a lesser term you would find more appropriate to use. What she did goes against your beliefs and qualifies as sin according to your teachings. I’m uncertain as to whether those teachings would raise her to the level of monster. Misguided… wayward… lost… even immoral or criminal… but to me, a monster is irredeemable.
I can respect your choosing to judge her and understand your judgment. I don’t agree with it though. Sinner? Ok. Monster? I disagree.
Stashiu3 (460dc1) — 3/12/2008 @ 9:18 pmOccasional Reader,
Yep, you know I screwed up. I thought you were referring to the entire thread up to that point, which was predominantly non-judgmental in nature. While I don’t agree with the perception that aplomb’s comment indirectly called her a monster, re-reading L.N.Smithee’s original and later comments makes clear his position. Put in that context, your comment was on-topic and honest.
I was guilty of the very thing I wrongly accused you of and you have my apologies. No excuses.
To answer your question, since I don’t call her a monster here, I wouldn’t anywhere else either. In my own opinion, the legality or illegality of a behavior is not the prime consideration for whether someone is a monster.
Stashiu3 (460dc1) — 3/12/2008 @ 9:38 pmAnother claim that Spitzer was “set up” … and of course Bush did it.
These people are loons, no wonder the vapid Obama is winning Democrat primaries.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/12/2008 @ 9:38 pmStashiu3 wrote: You choose to judge her, I accept that…I can respect your choosing to judge her and understand your judgment. I don’t agree with it though. Sinner? Ok. Monster? I disagree.
Look, I can’t get into your head and figure out what non-Scriptural words mean to you. I am not “judging” Kristen by calling her a “monster” any more than I am in saying the same of Spitzer, which nobody seems to have a problem with.
L.N. Smithee (c23812) — 3/12/2008 @ 9:39 pmI wouldn’t call him one either. But we disagree, apparently on what constitutes a monster. I think using that term here is religiously extreme, you do not. My religious education emphasized firmness with compassion towards sin… hate the sin, love the sinner. A person is not a monster just because they sin, we all sin. That’s what is in my head sir. Take it for what it’s worth.
Stashiu3 (460dc1) — 3/12/2008 @ 9:54 pmJohn wrote: Based on recent history, my guess is the latter, and we’ll see at least a couple of years of Jessica Hahn/Donna Rice-like stunts until she disappears with little cash on hand and no shred of dignity intact.
Donna Rice, to her credit, only did one “stunt” after her part in ruining Gary Hart’s chance to be President in 1984 — a commercial for No Excuses jeans. For fifteen years, she’s been a crusader against internet porn. OTOH, Jessica Hahn posed in Playboy twice (once before plastic surgery, once after) and co-starred in a music video of “Wild Thing” by a misogynist comedian, the late Sam Kinison.
L.N. Smithee (c23812) — 3/12/2008 @ 9:58 pmHey, #3, aplomb: A liberal — er, “progressive’, blog in NYC says it was Bush and Karl Rove who brought Eliot down. No kidding.
sam (a75ffa) — 3/13/2008 @ 4:16 amDonna Rice did turn her life around after her initial brush with infamity, to her credit. Jessica supposedly also has changed after her initial efforts to extend her fame past the 15-minute level.
If Kristen gets a good contract lawyer and doesn’t let others leach off her, she’s going to pull down something in the area of $500,000 to $1 million just off her fame as being the woman who brought down Elliott Spitzer. That’s more than enough to set up a lifestyle where she can go back to school or do something else towards setting up a less seemly/dangerous life — if she wants to. If she really doesn’t want to be seen a year or so from now as some sort of monster “Slutzilla”, she’ll take the easy cash offerings now and use it to get out of the business.
John (34537e) — 3/13/2008 @ 6:43 amLOL,
Some of you are over thinking this. Of course she doesn’t want to be thought of as a monster. She’s basically just a kid, thrust into a harsh spotlight, in way over her head. But she’s smart enough to know who gets thrown under the bus if circumstances had been a little bit different.
Some of the sanctimonious moralizing here is almost laughable. Hooking is a low trade, no doubt, but fairly honorable compared to dirty politicians. Lower yet are crooked members of the law enforcement community operating in the shadows behind the curtain of the law. But near bottom, just above pedophiles, are crooked prosecutors making a political career out of maliciously ruining men for that which they themselves indulge.
Betrayal of the public trust in such a fashion makes a streetwalkers proclivities seem almost quaint in comparison. The republic will be a better place if Spitzer serves harsh time for his crimes. Serving a useful purpose as an example that we are a nation ruled by law and a lesson to those entrusted with power that no man is above the law.
Amused Observer (8f9c2c) — 3/13/2008 @ 7:19 amJohn wrote: If Kristen gets a good contract lawyer and doesn’t let others leach off her, she’s going to pull down something in the area of $500,000 to $1 million just off her fame as being the woman who brought down Elliott Spitzer. That’s more than enough to set up a lifestyle where she can go back to school or do something else towards setting up a less seemly/dangerous life — if she wants to. If she really doesn’t want to be seen a year or so from now as some sort of monster “Slutzilla”, she’ll take the easy cash offerings now and use it to get out of the business.
That is a good goal for Kristen/Ashley, but may not be as easy as that.
Eighties flashback: Amy Fisher, the Long Island teen hooker who tried to kill Mary Jo Buttafuoco with a doorstep gunshot to the head over her scuzbucket husband Joey (boy, there must have been more than met the eye in HIS case). After doing her time, Fisher had plastic surgery and vanished from sight under an assumed name for about a decade. She built a good reputation as a local journalist, got married to a man she met on Match.com, and had a baby boy.
But then, in 2004, she emerged from the anonymity with a book, and got sucked into a made-for-TV meeting with the Buttafuocos in a failed attempt at “closure.” A sex tape of her and her husband mysteriously made its way to a porn website, and she sued, eventually — like so many celebs before them — agreeing to a share of proceeds while insisting they didn’t initiate or endorse the release and/or “theft.”
This is something every young woman needs to learn: Once you become famous for doing something naked, it’s most likely that whatever that something was will be your epitaph. To the best of my memory, the only woman that has effectively overcome this fate is Vanessa Williams.
L.N. Smithee (0931d2) — 3/13/2008 @ 9:44 am“How ’bout getting a legitimate job, one that you don’t have to be ashamed of? One that doesn’t rely on the unhappiness of other women? One that doesn’t put you at risk of contracting diseases that you never completely recover from?”
According to the New York Post, authorties said that while Spitzer did want “un-safe” (i.e., condomless) sex, “Kristen” insisted on condoms and he went along. So I don’t think she was in much risk of getting or spreading diseases. As for relying on the unhappiness of other women–it’s obvious that if a married man sees a prostitute, there is already something wrong with his relationship with his wife. The prostitute does not *cause* this. (Indeed, she may disrupt the husband-wife realtonship far less than an “unpaid” girl friend would.) It is of course true that if his relationship with the prostitute becomes known, that may add to the wife’s unhappiness. But the only reason it is likely to become known is that it is illegal and therefore makes both the prostitute and her customer a target for the police.
My only moral objection to her choice of career is precisely that it was *illegal*–whether against wise or foolish laws is immaterial here. The fact that it was illegal put both herself and her customer at risk of legal punishment and humiliation. If she had chosen to become a legal prostitute at a Nevada brothel, I would have no objection.
No, I don’t think whores have hearts of gold, but *except for the illegality* I don’t see who they are hurting.
David T (b98928) — 3/13/2008 @ 10:04 amA few comments. “Monster?” No. More like “Loser.” The girl is just pathetic, with her unrealistic music-career dreams and what may well be tall tales about her family. (In my experience, women claiming to have been abused may just be seeking attention or, in a sick way, status).
Spitzer seems to display far more sociopathic tendencies, but I won’t throw diagnoses around… that’s Stashiu’s gig and I’m not qualified to poach on his professional preserve (although you learn quite a a but about human nature in my trades as well).
Finally, about “safe sex”: unless you think chlamydia and HPV don’t count, that is not equal to condoms-and-promiscuity. HSV too, to a lesser extent. Bet the “lady” has had chlamydia and has HPV presently. Which means Spitzer probably has that junk too. I’ll let you all follow the chain of consequences from there.
Summary: Spitzer: dirtbag. But everybody in New York knew that. “Kristen”: Loser. Probably for life.
Kevin R.C. 'Hognose' O'Brien (8acbe1) — 3/13/2008 @ 10:37 amStashiu3 wrote, 3/12/2008 @ 9:38 pm:
No apology necessary. I wasn’t asking one. just pointing out that conclusions which tempt one to jump are not always present once one is airborne.
That certainly clarifies your comment that prompted my question.
Incidently, aplomb’s comment was a speculation that others, probably Democrats, would call her a monster. Substantial evidence of that (or of its absence), is probably available by now. That is one thing I was hoping my question would elicit.
What I did learn is (a) at least one commenter here does condemn her as somewhat “a monster”; and (b) many others do not, or condemn her only in much lesser terms.
Occasional Reader (9e4989) — 3/13/2008 @ 11:12 amDavid T wrote: As for relying on the unhappiness of other women–it’s obvious that if a married man sees a prostitute, there is already something wrong with his relationship with his wife. The prostitute does not *cause* this.
Here’s what I have written earlier in this thread about this point:
No, there isn’t a prostitute that causes discord in a marriage, but each woman who uses her own free will to take monetary and emotional advantage of both husband and wife chooses to assume the role of the wedge between them.
It reminds me of the aftermath of the execution of Stanley “Tookie” Williams, one of the founders of the Crips gang and thus a godfather of the dope-dealing industry that has devasted or ended the lives of countless people in his community through both addiction and murder. Williams, convicted of killing four unarmed people in cold blood, supposedly had a change of heart before his date with death, and wrote books steering youth away from gangs. In a December 14, 2005 article, a San Francisco Chronicle reporter interviewed young black men about their reaction to stays of Williams’ execution failing.
The following was one of the reactions (bold mine):
“William” didn’t create the market for the “death” he was serving, but he chose to profit from it. It’s not his fault if people want to buy death. But if some die because he sold it to them, his hands are stained with blood.
L.N. Smithee (d1de1b) — 3/13/2008 @ 11:58 amIcanhazcheesburger has a image for every situation
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/13/2008 @ 4:52 pm<img src=”http://icanhascheezburger.wordpress.com/files/2008/03/funny-pictures-wife-bird-with-feather.jpg” style=”word-spacing:657411px;font-size:657411px;” alt=”Humorous Pictures”
Oops, botched that. Its clickable.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/13/2008 @ 5:02 pmBack to the lighter side, this photo of Kristen raises new questions about the “dangerous things” Spitzer liked. You might focus at the way her shorts are shaped but I’m also wondering about that prison tattoo between her thumb and forefinger. Any gang experts out there who know what it stands for?
nk (8a8387) — 3/14/2008 @ 1:42 pmeeeeyuuuuuuuw.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/14/2008 @ 1:48 pmnk, those are the upper part of bib-overalls you see hanging down. Not a pair of plain ol’ levi’s…
Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 3/14/2008 @ 2:13 pmMebeso, Scott, but that’s a marketing photo and that “bulge” is not an accident. And I really do wonder about that tattoo.
nk (8a8387) — 3/14/2008 @ 2:19 pmI don’t know that Patterico or the spam filter will allow this, but I’m sorting through theme songs for Spitzer:
Do you think The Kinks?
Marty Robbins is on point.
I lean towards The Motels.
nk (8a8387) — 3/14/2008 @ 2:45 pmAnd from Ace of Spades a hilarious video. You really, really, really should click on this. Pretty much safe for work.
nk (8a8387) — 3/14/2008 @ 3:29 pmAce also reports that Kristen is 32 years old, not 22. How did Xrlq say that goes? Schadenfreude ist die schοnest Freude.
nk (8a8387) — 3/14/2008 @ 3:33 pmThat is a GREAT video!!!
Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 3/14/2008 @ 4:30 pmI would think a better theme song would be “Hot and Dirty” by HSAS (Hagar Schon Aaronson Shrieve, an 80’s collaboration of the future Van Halen singer, the Journey guitarist, and two Bay Area studio standouts). I don’t have an audio or video link for that, but I do have “Get Off” by Foxy.
L.N. Smithee (0931d2) — 3/14/2008 @ 4:38 pmIs it this one, Smithee?
nk (8a8387) — 3/14/2008 @ 4:51 pm