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	<title>Comments on: Vaccines and Autism</title>
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	<link>http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/</link>
	<description>Harangues that just make sense</description>
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		<title>By: ZeroBomb</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-330953</link>
		<dc:creator>ZeroBomb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 02:19:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/#comment-330953</guid>
		<description>1) The government is not the legislator of science.  If they were to rule that pi = 3 they would be wrong, if they were to rule that the world is flat they would be wrong, ruling that vaccines cause autism merely means that a bunch of lawyers have given their opinion on a scientific issue; no more no less.
2) Even since mercury is removed from the vaccines autism rates have continued to climb.  How can it continue to cause high rates of autism when it is no longer administered to children?
3) Parents who have decided vaccines caused their child&#039;s autism have committed about the most blatant &quot;post hoc ergo propter hoc&quot; error imaginable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1) The government is not the legislator of science.  If they were to rule that pi = 3 they would be wrong, if they were to rule that the world is flat they would be wrong, ruling that vaccines cause autism merely means that a bunch of lawyers have given their opinion on a scientific issue; no more no less.<br />
2) Even since mercury is removed from the vaccines autism rates have continued to climb.  How can it continue to cause high rates of autism when it is no longer administered to children?<br />
3) Parents who have decided vaccines caused their child&#8217;s autism have committed about the most blatant &#8220;post hoc ergo propter hoc&#8221; error imaginable.</p>
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		<title>By: Shelley</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-329895</link>
		<dc:creator>Shelley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/#comment-329895</guid>
		<description>Perhaps individual vaccinations do not cause autism. However, a combination of vaccinations, all at relatively the same time, along with a depressed immune system or some other developmental condition, might.  When I was a child (I&#039;m 41) I had 3 vaccinations, now children get over a dozen. We should be examining not the individual vaccines but the cumulative effects of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps individual vaccinations do not cause autism. However, a combination of vaccinations, all at relatively the same time, along with a depressed immune system or some other developmental condition, might.  When I was a child (I&#8217;m 41) I had 3 vaccinations, now children get over a dozen. We should be examining not the individual vaccines but the cumulative effects of them.</p>
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		<title>By: OmegaPaladin</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-324437</link>
		<dc:creator>OmegaPaladin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 13:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/#comment-324437</guid>
		<description>DRJ,

I&#039;m sorry to hear about your youngest.  If it&#039;s any consolation, I have Asperger&#039;s and I have been able to live a better than normal life. (I am always grateful for the help I received)  Social skills are still a problem, but I can work successfully as a teacher, so I must not be that bad. I understand your concern, and it seems you understand the idea of multiple factors of causation.  I think the FDA was terrified of people refusing vaccination out of pointless fear.  Vaccination is certainly not a sufficient cause for autism, and probably is not always necessary, but it still may be a contributing factor.

Semanticleo,

I hold an M.S. in Chemistry and I have completed plenty of coursework on the toxicity of the heavy metals.  I was honored to have had straight As in ever organic chemistry class I took.  Perhaps this will be enough.

Methyl mercury and the organomercury compounds are extremely nasty and have demonstrable neurotoxic effects.  These are collectively known as Minamata disease, after a tragic mass poisoning at Minamata Bay, Japan. (Do they have vastly increased autism?  I&#039;d expect it if your theory was true.) 

However, ADA was correct to point out that mercury is not the most toxic element, and that mercury&#039;s toxicity is greatly enhanced with an organic group attached. Mercury amalgam is very safe - Zinc amalgam is actually a preferred cleanup method for mercury spills. Thallium, cadmium, beryllium are all extremely toxic metals.  As the most toxic substance, I believe botulism toxic holds that title.  How could you forget cyanide?  That&#039;s not considering the radioisotopes (Some Polonium-210 with your vodka, comrade?) or carcinogens (pick your favorite)  Your statements are without merit here.

Yes, Thiomerosal has a ethylmercury group, but that is bound to a sulfide link to sodium benzoate.  Hydrogen sulfides are actually known as mercaptans (for mercurium captan) for their affinity for mercury ions.  This is not the same free ethylmercury.  I&#039;ve got to get going so I make it to work, so you&#039;ll have to wait on any detailed toxicology/toxicokinetics studies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DRJ,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry to hear about your youngest.  If it&#8217;s any consolation, I have Asperger&#8217;s and I have been able to live a better than normal life. (I am always grateful for the help I received)  Social skills are still a problem, but I can work successfully as a teacher, so I must not be that bad. I understand your concern, and it seems you understand the idea of multiple factors of causation.  I think the FDA was terrified of people refusing vaccination out of pointless fear.  Vaccination is certainly not a sufficient cause for autism, and probably is not always necessary, but it still may be a contributing factor.</p>
<p>Semanticleo,</p>
<p>I hold an M.S. in Chemistry and I have completed plenty of coursework on the toxicity of the heavy metals.  I was honored to have had straight As in ever organic chemistry class I took.  Perhaps this will be enough.</p>
<p>Methyl mercury and the organomercury compounds are extremely nasty and have demonstrable neurotoxic effects.  These are collectively known as Minamata disease, after a tragic mass poisoning at Minamata Bay, Japan. (Do they have vastly increased autism?  I&#8217;d expect it if your theory was true.) </p>
<p>However, ADA was correct to point out that mercury is not the most toxic element, and that mercury&#8217;s toxicity is greatly enhanced with an organic group attached. Mercury amalgam is very safe &#8211; Zinc amalgam is actually a preferred cleanup method for mercury spills. Thallium, cadmium, beryllium are all extremely toxic metals.  As the most toxic substance, I believe botulism toxic holds that title.  How could you forget cyanide?  That&#8217;s not considering the radioisotopes (Some Polonium-210 with your vodka, comrade?) or carcinogens (pick your favorite)  Your statements are without merit here.</p>
<p>Yes, Thiomerosal has a ethylmercury group, but that is bound to a sulfide link to sodium benzoate.  Hydrogen sulfides are actually known as mercaptans (for mercurium captan) for their affinity for mercury ions.  This is not the same free ethylmercury.  I&#8217;ve got to get going so I make it to work, so you&#8217;ll have to wait on any detailed toxicology/toxicokinetics studies.</p>
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		<title>By: DRJ</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-324420</link>
		<dc:creator>DRJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 06:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/#comment-324420</guid>
		<description>Lesley,

I appreciate your good wishes and I hope you will let me respond in kind.  Don&#039;t worry about offering advice or comfort to your brother and sister-in-law.  It sounds like they are doing a great job with your nephew.  If you agree, tell them!  Honest encouragement and feedback is the best advice you can give them.  They may seem like an unusual family to you but no one has the perfect family.

To me, the most important thing you said is that your nephew has something he&#039;s interested in.  Being interested in something is not only a sign of intellect but it&#039;s also something you can use to build a relationship.  Consider joining your nephew in watching planes -- not only would it let you get to know each other but shared experiences and interests might help him with socialization skills.

Hopefully it wouldn&#039;t be that difficult for you to do.  I think planes are fascinating, don&#039;t you?  Maybe you could find some &quot;How Things Work&quot; videos on planes, a DVD set on how to fly a plane, or if you don&#039;t live nearby perhaps you could visit the same internet websites on planes.  I bet your nephew would love watching and talking about them with you, either in person or via email or phone.  Getting autistics to share interests and activities with others is a good tool to increase socialization.  

Finally, a shared interest might also create a special bond between you and your nephew, and that&#039;s the best gift you could give your brother and sister-in-law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lesley,</p>
<p>I appreciate your good wishes and I hope you will let me respond in kind.  Don&#8217;t worry about offering advice or comfort to your brother and sister-in-law.  It sounds like they are doing a great job with your nephew.  If you agree, tell them!  Honest encouragement and feedback is the best advice you can give them.  They may seem like an unusual family to you but no one has the perfect family.</p>
<p>To me, the most important thing you said is that your nephew has something he&#8217;s interested in.  Being interested in something is not only a sign of intellect but it&#8217;s also something you can use to build a relationship.  Consider joining your nephew in watching planes &#8212; not only would it let you get to know each other but shared experiences and interests might help him with socialization skills.</p>
<p>Hopefully it wouldn&#8217;t be that difficult for you to do.  I think planes are fascinating, don&#8217;t you?  Maybe you could find some &#8220;How Things Work&#8221; videos on planes, a DVD set on how to fly a plane, or if you don&#8217;t live nearby perhaps you could visit the same internet websites on planes.  I bet your nephew would love watching and talking about them with you, either in person or via email or phone.  Getting autistics to share interests and activities with others is a good tool to increase socialization.  </p>
<p>Finally, a shared interest might also create a special bond between you and your nephew, and that&#8217;s the best gift you could give your brother and sister-in-law.</p>
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		<title>By: Lesley</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-324409</link>
		<dc:creator>Lesley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 05:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/#comment-324409</guid>
		<description>DRJ - my nephew is fascinated with airports and airplanes.  He can tell you what any carrier is doing at any airport around the world AT ANY TIME.  He will spend hours watching videos of planes taking off and landing (yes, such videos are actually available) at many major airports all over the world and devours airline schedules.

As with many people with Asperger&#039;s, he is very intelligent but social interactions are extremely problematic for him. He has huge difficulties living in the present.  He focuses almost exclusively on &quot;what&#039;s next&quot; and becomes extremely upset when plans change.

Another problem for my brother and sister-in-law is that they have only the one son and find it extremely difficult to ascertain what problems are related to the autism versus just being a typical, jerky teenager.  I feel so helpless to be of any comfort to them, especially to offer advice.

At any rate, I am well aware of many of the challenge you and your family face on a daily basis.  May the Lord bless and keep you all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DRJ &#8211; my nephew is fascinated with airports and airplanes.  He can tell you what any carrier is doing at any airport around the world AT ANY TIME.  He will spend hours watching videos of planes taking off and landing (yes, such videos are actually available) at many major airports all over the world and devours airline schedules.</p>
<p>As with many people with Asperger&#8217;s, he is very intelligent but social interactions are extremely problematic for him. He has huge difficulties living in the present.  He focuses almost exclusively on &#8220;what&#8217;s next&#8221; and becomes extremely upset when plans change.</p>
<p>Another problem for my brother and sister-in-law is that they have only the one son and find it extremely difficult to ascertain what problems are related to the autism versus just being a typical, jerky teenager.  I feel so helpless to be of any comfort to them, especially to offer advice.</p>
<p>At any rate, I am well aware of many of the challenge you and your family face on a daily basis.  May the Lord bless and keep you all.</p>
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		<title>By: SPQR</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-324407</link>
		<dc:creator>SPQR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 05:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/#comment-324407</guid>
		<description>Semanticleo, you&#039;ve failed once again to improve my opinion of you.  Not least because the FDA article does not in fact support your claims.

The bottom line remains that their is not a causal link between thimerasol and autism, there is no difference in rates between populations that received thimerasol-preserved vaccination and those that did not and removal of the thimerasol has not reduced autism rates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Semanticleo, you&#8217;ve failed once again to improve my opinion of you.  Not least because the FDA article does not in fact support your claims.</p>
<p>The bottom line remains that their is not a causal link between thimerasol and autism, there is no difference in rates between populations that received thimerasol-preserved vaccination and those that did not and removal of the thimerasol has not reduced autism rates.</p>
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		<title>By: DRJ</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-324403</link>
		<dc:creator>DRJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 05:07:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/#comment-324403</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Lesley, and you make a good point.  I&#039;m familiar with studies like that and one of my favorite philosophers and writers, Thomas Sowell, wrote a fascinating book on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Late-Talking-Children-Thomas-Sowell/dp/0465038352&quot; title=&quot;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Late-Talking Children&lt;/a&gt; that addresses very similar issues.  

The cause-effect mechanism is mysterious but my guess is that people who have autism spectrum disorders (which seem to primarily damage the left side of the brain) therefore find it easier to succeed in right-brained activities like math and music.  In addition, the studies and anecdotal evidence you reference support that there is a genetic component involved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Lesley, and you make a good point.  I&#8217;m familiar with studies like that and one of my favorite philosophers and writers, Thomas Sowell, wrote a fascinating book on <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Late-Talking-Children-Thomas-Sowell/dp/0465038352" title="" rel="nofollow">Late-Talking Children</a> that addresses very similar issues.  </p>
<p>The cause-effect mechanism is mysterious but my guess is that people who have autism spectrum disorders (which seem to primarily damage the left side of the brain) therefore find it easier to succeed in right-brained activities like math and music.  In addition, the studies and anecdotal evidence you reference support that there is a genetic component involved.</p>
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		<title>By: Lesley</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-324397</link>
		<dc:creator>Lesley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 04:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/#comment-324397</guid>
		<description>DRJ - my sympathies.  My dear brother and sister-in-law have an eighteen-year-old son with Asperger&#039;s.  They have faced many challenges raising their son.

Some time ago, the WSJ ran an article linking autism with parents who had children later in life and had strong math/engineering/accounting backgrounds. 

I realize this is strictly anecdotal evidence, but my brother had two roommates who were also accounting majors (all three went on to become CPA&#039;s).  All three men had sons when in their thirties, two had boys with autism, the other had a severely disabled son.

This theory may bear further investigation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DRJ &#8211; my sympathies.  My dear brother and sister-in-law have an eighteen-year-old son with Asperger&#8217;s.  They have faced many challenges raising their son.</p>
<p>Some time ago, the WSJ ran an article linking autism with parents who had children later in life and had strong math/engineering/accounting backgrounds. </p>
<p>I realize this is strictly anecdotal evidence, but my brother had two roommates who were also accounting majors (all three went on to become CPA&#8217;s).  All three men had sons when in their thirties, two had boys with autism, the other had a severely disabled son.</p>
<p>This theory may bear further investigation.</p>
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		<title>By: Semanticleo</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-324321</link>
		<dc:creator>Semanticleo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 00:20:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/#comment-324321</guid>
		<description>.&quot; Your alarmist junk science&quot;

You fail the smell test, at least as a smeller.

Who is debunking the thimerosol link to autism?

Is there any objective source providing that &#039;research&#039;?

Please don&#039;t tell me medical orgs are objective.

In no way do they want the entire medical and pharmaceutical establishment to found in any way,
liable.  

Why was it removed?

&quot;While the review found no evidence of adverse effects caused by thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor local hypersensitivity reactions (as explained above), the assessment determined that the use of thimerosal as a preservative in vaccines might result in the intake of mercury during the first six months of life that exceeded recommended guidelines from EPA. The amounts, however, do not exceed the recommended guidelines set by FDA, the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, and the World Health Organization. Of note, such guidelines contain safety factors and are meant as starting points for evaluation of mercury exposure, not absolute levels above which toxicity can be expected to occur.&quot;

http://www.fda.gov/ola/2000/vaccines.html  

Yes, that is the alarmist federal agency known as
the FDA.

There are several good articles at the following.
Strangely the CDC article confirming Evidence
of Harm has been scrubbed.

http://www.thimerosal-news.com/

You people are just to naive to be believed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>.&#8221; Your alarmist junk science&#8221;</p>
<p>You fail the smell test, at least as a smeller.</p>
<p>Who is debunking the thimerosol link to autism?</p>
<p>Is there any objective source providing that &#8216;research&#8217;?</p>
<p>Please don&#8217;t tell me medical orgs are objective.</p>
<p>In no way do they want the entire medical and pharmaceutical establishment to found in any way,<br />
liable.  </p>
<p>Why was it removed?</p>
<p>&#8220;While the review found no evidence of adverse effects caused by thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor local hypersensitivity reactions (as explained above), the assessment determined that the use of thimerosal as a preservative in vaccines might result in the intake of mercury during the first six months of life that exceeded recommended guidelines from EPA. The amounts, however, do not exceed the recommended guidelines set by FDA, the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, and the World Health Organization. Of note, such guidelines contain safety factors and are meant as starting points for evaluation of mercury exposure, not absolute levels above which toxicity can be expected to occur.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.fda.gov/ola/2000/vaccines.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.fda.gov/ola/2000/vaccines.html</a>  </p>
<p>Yes, that is the alarmist federal agency known as<br />
the FDA.</p>
<p>There are several good articles at the following.<br />
Strangely the CDC article confirming Evidence<br />
of Harm has been scrubbed.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thimerosal-news.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.thimerosal-news.com/</a></p>
<p>You people are just to naive to be believed.</p>
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		<title>By: kishnevi</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-324214</link>
		<dc:creator>kishnevi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 19:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2008/03/06/vaccines-and-autism/#comment-324214</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;autism rates were rising frighteningly and inexplicably.&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;i&gt;hence the greater incidence of autism in that gender.&lt;/i&gt;
Actually, the reasons behind both of those have at least as much to do with changes in diagnostic procedures as with mercury or any other toxin.  Ute Frith, in her book &lt;b&gt;Autism&lt;/b&gt;gives one statistic; in plain English, the rate for diagnosis of undifferentiated mental retardation declined over the same period and the same rate as diagnosis of autism increased.  Proper conclusion is that people who used to be diagnosed as simple mental retardation are now diagnosed as autistic.  Semanticleo&#039;s conclusion, of course, would be that  the same mercury that triggers autism must cure mental retardation.  Take you pick.
The apparent preponderanc of autistic males over autistic females seems to be consistent throughout history, as far as we can track it; but it also may be due to the fact that females may be able to  mask those traits better; and in fact in recent decades the number of autistic females seems to be climbing compared to those of males.  
In one word, it&#039;s the diagnosis.  And there is nothing frightening or inexplicable about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>autism rates were rising frighteningly and inexplicably.</i><br />
<i>hence the greater incidence of autism in that gender.</i><br />
Actually, the reasons behind both of those have at least as much to do with changes in diagnostic procedures as with mercury or any other toxin.  Ute Frith, in her book <b>Autism</b>gives one statistic; in plain English, the rate for diagnosis of undifferentiated mental retardation declined over the same period and the same rate as diagnosis of autism increased.  Proper conclusion is that people who used to be diagnosed as simple mental retardation are now diagnosed as autistic.  Semanticleo&#8217;s conclusion, of course, would be that  the same mercury that triggers autism must cure mental retardation.  Take you pick.<br />
The apparent preponderanc of autistic males over autistic females seems to be consistent throughout history, as far as we can track it; but it also may be due to the fact that females may be able to  mask those traits better; and in fact in recent decades the number of autistic females seems to be climbing compared to those of males.<br />
In one word, it&#8217;s the diagnosis.  And there is nothing frightening or inexplicable about it.</p>
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